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Clive Long
3rd-March-2005, 08:30 PM
Hopefully this is a new angle on an old topic (are there any new topics?)

If you think it's been done to death just PM me and I'll try to get it all erased.

Anyway.

Quite a bit has been written about what women should do when "thrown around" during dancing by "Ug of Wessex" or any of his mates.

As a woman (that excludes Trampy, A McG and any recreational cross-dressers), if you feel you just have to suffer this treatment, what do you think would be the best support you could receive that you believe would help you deal with such a situation?

I have some ideas but I don't want to impose my ideas on a situation that I don't have to deal with.

Or is the question patronising?

What do I know?

CRL

Andreas
3rd-March-2005, 08:38 PM
This topic generally has to be approached from at least two angles.

Guys: Develop a smooth and round style. That way you don't have to yank the lady as she will walk in the 'right' direction all by herself. So you essentially move around the lady and change the direction of the moves to whatever is the easiest to direct SOFTLY. The result of that'll be that guys actually start moving a lot more ;)

Ladies: SHORTEN YOURS STEPS! :flower: Many of the 'rough dancing' issues arise because the ladies take huge backsteps and hence are to far away for more or less anything to do but stand and wait. Second most important thing is to be able to say NO to fast music if you realise that you may have trouble keeping up or if you know your partner can't keep up. ;)

I am sure there is a lot more but I am too tired at the moment ... so slow music please :cheers:

Feelingpink
3rd-March-2005, 09:54 PM
... what do you think would be the best support you could receive that you believe would help you deal with such a situation?

...
CRL

Things that would make a difference for me include:

- Feeling that other women in the same situation would take action themselves

- Knowing what action I could take (saying something/walking away/complaining to the venue)

- Knowing that what I'm doing is socially acceptable within MJ (I know this shouldn't matter, but somehow it just does)

And this is from someone who generally doesn't have a problem in getting her point across

DianaS
3rd-March-2005, 10:45 PM
Hopefully this is a new angle on an old topic (are there any new topics?)

If you think it's been done to death just PM me and I'll try to get it all erased.

Anyway.

Quite a bit has been written about what women should do when "thrown around" during dancing by "Ug of Wessex" or any of his mates.

As a woman (that excludes Trampy, A McG and any recreational cross-dressers), if you feel you just have to suffer this treatment, what do you think would be the best support you could receive that you believe would help you deal with such a situation?

I have some ideas but I don't want to impose my ideas on a situation that I don't have to deal with.

Or is the question patronising?

What do I know?

CRL


One woman at a dance weekend told me that if they lead me too strongly that I can ask for a lighter lead and that they will do this. She must have noticed that I find too strong a lead actually uncomfortable and even painful. This advice has changed so many dances...

Andreas
3rd-March-2005, 10:59 PM
One woman at a dance weekend told me that if they lead me too strongly that I can ask for a lighter lead and that they will do this. She must have noticed that I find too strong a lead actually uncomfortable and even painful. This advice has changed so many dances...

Just to continue bypassing the actual question of the tread :whistle:

You do also realise that a lot of the shoving and yanking depends on the lady's cross pressure? A stiff arm makes smooth leads just as difficult as a sloppy (semi-dislocated) arm.

Sorry Clive, I know you put this up to raise opinions as to what can be done against rough dancing. I am fully aware that this IS a problem. But I am also relatively sure that at least a good part of this can well be self-inflicted.

My opinion about what to do is simple: Tell them, and if they don't listen then refuse to dance with exactly that explanation. I do not think that this is something that should go to the venue owner as we are all grown up people and should be able to communicate. The sledgehammer approach may also not be the best choice. If you can tell the other person actually how he can change his style to avoid being rough ... they may even listen. And if they don't then say no next time.

:flower:

Ste
3rd-March-2005, 11:05 PM
I am not sure if CLive means how rough dancing can be improved by improving your dancing style.

Does he not mean how best to protect women who are being subject to rough treatment by a third party and how to give them psychological support?

I have seen some really rough stuff on the floor ( could easily have smashed the girl's head against something including the floor) and in fact the same individual had told me to "Get out the way " or words to that effect.

Me and my mate just looked at each other in astonishment.

Didn't expect that in a Ceroc venue!

jivecat
3rd-March-2005, 11:20 PM
if you feel you just have to suffer this treatment, what do you think would be the best support you could receive that you believe would help you deal with such a situation?

Nobody has to suffer it. It's up to individuals to decide how much they are prepared to take and to act accordingly. It's generally not too difficult to avoid dancing with the worst offenders. I could fix things so they don't want to dance with me, anyway. :devil:

Sometimes I consent to dance with rough dancers because there are other reasons to do so, apart from my dancing enjoyment.

However, I think teachers/management could pinpoint the worst offenders and do whatever they could to improve or ameliorate their dancing style.

The most unpleasant rough dancer I know was described as "quite nice to dance with" by a friend of mine. These things are obviously very subjective and for this reason I wouldn't advocate reporting people to management except under extreme circumstances. It would only take a couple of complaints to victimise someone who the majority of women found perfectly acceptable. I'm not sure if this would be fair. Though I'm absolutely sure there will be some disagreement here.

I think I should be more proactive about "saying something" to a dancer who has treated me roughly. I try to think of ways to clearly state what I mean without sounding rude or aggressive, but it's not always easy. I should be more direct, but it is easier to just avoid dancing with them if the problem is really bad.



Or is the question patronising?

What do I know?

CRL Well, maybe, just a touch. But you asked it so nicely I think you should be forgiven. :flower:

ChrisA
4th-March-2005, 12:14 AM
Well, maybe, just a touch [patronising].
I think this is very unfair.

I'm frequently in the situation where I see a lady having rough or pervy dancing inflicted on her. Sometimes I ask her, why she puts up with it. There's never a good answer. :confused:

I could take the easy way out and just stop caring. I could figure, hey, I'm not like that, they'll prefer dancing with me to that ****hole. I'll say nothing.

But no. I take the trouble to encourage the ladies to say no to behaviour they dislike, but somehow can't repel. I keep track of where the yankers and pervs are, and when necessary bring them to the attention of the organisers.

Some guys care enough to take an interest in this issue.

And it IS a puzzle - why the girls are so often unable and/or unable to just tell the ****holes to, er, go away.

But often they ARE upset by it - and it's not patronising to seek a way of providing support to those ladies that struggle to avoid the gits out there.

Maybe you can succesfully avoid/repel the pervs and yankers. Well lots don't/can't.

I dont understand why, but I'm a mere bloke. Sorry.

Northants Girly
4th-March-2005, 12:41 AM
Or is the question patronising?
Well, maybe, just a touch
I think this is very unfair.
:yeah:
Of course it isn't patronising.
Its good that there are blokes out there that
a) recognise the problem and
b) care enough about it that are willing to try and do something about it by starting this thread


But you asked it so nicely I think you should be forgivenNow that IS patronising!

Trousers
4th-March-2005, 01:29 AM
I know the Ceroc thing is to always say "YES" but frankly thats crap.
There are smelly guys, sweaty guys, drooling letchy guys and guys with a rough **** lead - When quizzed by ladies what they should do when confronted with them I say "Tell 'em NO!" When no-one wants to dance with them maybe they'll investigate why that is and change or just get lost.
Definately not a Ceroc Philosophy
But that's the way to weed out the chaff in my book.

I'm waiting for a string of "NO!"'s now. :tears:

MartinHarper
4th-March-2005, 01:43 AM
It IS a puzzle - why the girls are so often unable to just tell the ****holes to, er, go away.

Judging purely from what the women on the forum have said:

* Many rough dancers are just inexperienced (not necessarilly beginners, but perhaps beginning intermediates) and get better (slowly) with more dances, or words of advice.
* Many rough dancers are entirely tolerable for a single dance, so it isn't worth making an issue out of. The risk of discomfort is outweighed by other factors.

Andy McGregor
4th-March-2005, 02:06 AM
"Ug of Wessex" or any of his mates.He has no mates :tears: Some people call him "Neanderthal", which is, in it's own way, accurate :whistle:

When he first danced with Sue (Mrs McGrester) I felt justified in warning him that if he attempted and airstep I would have to kill him :eek:

"Ug of Wessex" deserves a thread to himself. Maybe we need a new category of "Hall of Infamy" we have the following candidates;

1. Ug of Wessex.
2. Shirtman.
3. ?

ChrisA
4th-March-2005, 08:10 AM
"Ug of Wessex" deserves a thread to himself. Maybe we need a new category of "Hall of Infamy" we have the following candidates;

1. Ug of Wessex.
2. Shirtman.
3. ?
And Lurch, of course.

I saw Shirtman blatantly feeling up a friend of mine a week or two back, and when I saw her the other day I asked her why she put with it...

... she said 'ugh it was horrible, I should know better, but somehow I couldn't just walk away'.

I just don't understand why this powerlessness is so common. :tears:

Feelingpink
4th-March-2005, 09:46 AM
I think one of the reasons this is such a grey area is that MJ is a social dance. Being a bit philosophical here, as human beings, all we really want is to be accepted and loved. If we turn down someone for a dance, it is rejection of another human being and surely lurking at the bottom of our minds is the fear that we wouldn't want someone to do that to us. So we're talking about fear and love - big, powerful stuff. No wonder it can be difficult to say "no thanks".

Gadget
4th-March-2005, 09:52 AM
I just don't understand why this powerlessness is so common. :tears:
Because it's a male led dance? We train and condition the ladies to be submisive and pliable so that they can react to our lead. Then some heavy handed galoot takes advantage of it(/them).
In order to dance well with someone, first the ladys have to trust the men and put themselves in their hands. If those hands wander, it's a violation of that trust and a violation of the lady.
However; to stop it or erect barriers in order to prevent this sort of thing, it detracts from the "trust" element in the first place. I don't think that there is any (good) preventative measure other than removing the offender once they have been identified. (unfortunatly this means that they have to offend in the first place)

Support? What support are ladys looking for? The knowledge that they are not being singled out? That the "perv" or "strong man" is a rare, but persistant menace? That action will be taken if people know?

ElaineB
4th-March-2005, 10:14 AM
And Lurch, of course.

I saw Shirtman blatantly feeling up a friend of mine a week or two back, and when I saw her the other day I asked her why she put with it...

... she said 'ugh it was horrible, I should know better, but somehow I couldn't just walk away'.

I just don't understand why this powerlessness is so common. :tears:

Thankfully, we don't have any 'Shirtmen' in Bristol. I have had two experiences like this (different men), both in London and was so shocked that I didn't do anything. I am sure that it was because I just didn't expect it!

However, if I come to said venue again and am treated like that I can assure you that the man will be slapped, very hard (also thinking about shouting - 'how dare you, you creep!') - so, please, look out for me, it should be a good night! :D

Re 'Ug of Wessex', I now simply refuse him. However, I did accept dances with him at first and I did feel guilty the first time I refused. I think it is that both the men and women at Ce/Le Roc are taught that you shouldn't refuse to dance with someone, that makes it difficult for us (unless of course, the person is a hotshot! :devil: )


Elaine

DianaS
4th-March-2005, 10:33 AM
And Lurch, of course.
I just don't understand why this powerlessness is so common. :tears:
I think its sometimes shock! If you're having a good night and your relaxed it can catch you unawares and you kindda wake up in a jolt. Personally I can either freeze and just don't respond at all, other times I will come to and give them a real run for their money!

If I'm off with the fairies (which I often am even when I'm not dancing), I'm lulled into a dream like state and the shock is much more intense!

That's why support if really helpful, my guard is well down when I'm in my regular venues and unpleasant surprises so uncommon its a bolt out of the blue. :flower:

Daisy Chain
4th-March-2005, 01:23 PM
what do you think would be the best support you could receive that you believe would help you deal with such a situation?



Well, my Hero, if I point the culprits out to you, will you go and duff them up for me?

Ta

Daisy

(A Roughly Treated Little Flower)

Lynn
4th-March-2005, 01:30 PM
Maybe you can succesfully avoid/repel the pervs and yankers. Well lots don't/can't. I think this is an important point. Its Ok to 'put up with it' for one dance and decide never to dance with them again, but others might not feel comfortable refusing to dance with the guy and this brings lot of other issues (eg if woman keep accepting dances maybe the guy isn't aware of how uncomfortable he's making women?). So I think having the moral support of other male dancers is a big help - knowing that to refuse dancing with a particular guy because you feel unsafe, will not make other men stop asking you.

And guys, if you see a woman who has had a bad dance and is a bit upset, make a point of asking her later a giving her a really good dance - it helps balance it all out! :hug:

Clive Long
4th-March-2005, 01:44 PM
Why did I raise this?

To parade my politically correct credentials and gain lots of "strokes" on this forum?

Not really. I have a more selfish interest.

Poor male dancers affect my dance experience.

I think it works like this:

New lady dancer tries Ceroc, finds it fun and is fired with enthusiasm. Then she encounters Ug / Caveman / shirtman and his like. NLD gets a bad experience and she either:

1. Gives up Ceroc - so I don't get the chance to dance with her
2. "draws in" - so I find I dance with a very "rigid" or "distant" woman
3. Just says no unless she knows the male very well.

So I lose out in three scenarios.

Can teachers help by as well as teaching moves, moves, moves also indicate how to lead clearly without unnecessary force? Maybe the woman can use that "reference point" to back up an objection? But there I go again proposing solutions rather than listening - its a condition I suffer from.

Clive

Lory
4th-March-2005, 01:52 PM
if you feel you just have to suffer this treatment, what do you think would be the best support you could receive that you believe would help you
We need a symathetic ear, we can moan to ;) , a shoulder massage would be a bonus :D followed by a smooth gentle dance, to take out minds off of what just happened :worthy: :flower:

Gadget
4th-March-2005, 03:01 PM
Can teachers help by as well as teaching moves, moves, moves also indicate how to lead clearly without unnecessary force? Maybe the woman can use that "reference point" to back up an objection?
I thought you were looking for solutions to the symptoms, not solutions to the cause of those symptoms?

The above is covered in most beginner workshops: perhaps they are not punted enough?

DianaS
4th-March-2005, 09:11 PM
We need a symathetic ear, we can moan to ;) , a shoulder massage would be a bonus :D followed by a smooth gentle dance, to take out minds off of what just happened :worthy: :flower:
Like yes!! :yeah: :yeah:

bigdjiver
4th-March-2005, 09:55 PM
At my regular venue it is regularly taught, semi-jestingly, how the lady should strike back against various mis-demeanours. I have very rarely seen such misdemeanours, and never seen any of the taught reactions, but the class is in doubt what is unacceptable.

Magic Hans
5th-March-2005, 12:58 PM
...
Ladies: SHORTEN YOURS STEPS! :flower: Many of the 'rough dancing' issues arise because the ladies take huge backsteps and hence are to far away for more or less anything to do but stand and wait. Second most important thing is to be able to say NO to fast music if you realise that you may have trouble keeping up or if you know your partner can't keep up. ;) :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Totally agree .... also from a safety perspective. When on a crowded dance floor, it makes my job of keeping my partner out of trouble.

Probably preaching to the converted on this forum!! [ ... but that int gonna stop me!!! :na: ]

Worst case scenario, a far heavier partner than myself (and I'm only likkle!), who insists on taking big steps, and leaning any on every back step!

Best case scenario ..... probably most of you guys on this forum!!

[Any brownie points for that eh?] :whistle: :whistle:

Ian

cheeks
5th-March-2005, 04:51 PM
a shoulder massage would be a bonus :D followed by a smooth gentle dance, to take our minds off of what just happened :worthy: :flower:


:yeah:

mm that is for sure :drool:


Where's Bill when you need him.................... :wink: :hug: