First-time Impressions

[ducasi]

Hi,

I went to a Ceroc class for the first yesterday. I thought I would share my impressions.

First, some background. I don't have any history of dancing - never been to any sort of classes since school. I've always enjoyed ceilidhs and such though.

I was persuaded to go by a friend who attends quite regularly, though she wasn't at the class last night - I figured it would be less stressful if I wasn't worried about making a fool of myself in front of anyone I know. She had filled me in on how things work though, so there wouldn't be any big surprises.

When I got there I was surprised by a couple of things. First, "joining" Ceroc is very simple - I didn't have to give any details at all about myself, not even my name. Second, I thought there would be a bigger fuss made of a new person, but there didn't seem to be anyone there to do that.

Because I'd been fore-warned, I pretty much knew what was going to to happen during the beginners session, but I think I'd have been pretty lost otherwise - it can take me a bit of time to acclimatise. Fortunately, the partner I had first seemed to know the ropes and things went pretty smoothly.

So the moves we were learning that night looked very complicated. I'm really surprised that I managed to learn it at all. The partners I had varied in their skill and helpfulness, but I was quickly adopted by one of the taxi dancers, and she stuck with me the rest of the session. She was just brilliant and helped me a lot (when she wasn't managing to confuse me. :) )

I don't know what I did to receive her dedicated attention - there were maybe 4 or 5 other new people. Perhaps I just looked more lost than the others, or maybe she didn't see them all when the teacher asked us to put our hands up. I'd like to think that she thought I was just cuter than the others. ;)

So, I guess I've just revealed that I'm male, so I guess we can talk about that for a bit - what it's like to be a guy beginner.

The good part: You get to stay put on the floor all the time.

The bad part: You are meant to be able to lead.

I was asked to dance during the "freestyle" bit after the beginner's session by an intermediate. I didn't have much of a clue. I did manage to do some of the stuff just taught to me, and my partner was a bit surprised but impressed that I had learnt such difficult moves for my first lesson.

I had tried to hide by making myself busy having some water and talking to the taxi dancer, but she had to go and arrange the revision bit and I was left alone and vulnerable.

Up to now I haven't mentioned any names or the place, I probably won't post this today, so it's less obvious where I was. Although I don't think I've said anything bad about anyone, I don't think it's appropriate to identify individuals unless they want to identify themselves. I guess some people might be able to work it out though. (I also tried to post this anonymously, but wasn't able to... oh well.)

I'm now going to talk a little about the location which may also make it easier to figure out where I was.

Over-all the location was quite good. It's a place I'm fairly familiar with anyway, which helped. There was really only one problem. When us beginners went elsewhere to practice our new moves with the taxi dancers, we found that there wasn't a place for us to go to. We ended up dancing in a fairly cramped space, with a wet and sticky floor and the occasional passer-by having to walk through us. Not ideal.

The revision bit did help a lot though. In fact I learnt things that weren't covered by the teacher - more general stuff that she wouldn't have time to go through during the class. Very useful.

After that we went back to the main hall and watched the intermediates doing their routine. They broke up quite quickly though and it was back to freestyle dancing.

I hid by concentrating on the text I was sending to my friend to say how much I'd enjoyed it. I haven't really said here how much I enjoyed the whole night. Ceroc dancing is remarkably easy and really good fun. During the lesson I couldn't stop grinning I was having such a good time. :D

After sending the text, I made my escape before I was accosted again and asked to dance by anyone who would know any more steps than me, and would be confused by my feeble attempts to lead them.

And this is where we get to the big problem for me. The one thing that is putting me off going back is the pressure on the guy to lead. I don't want to find myself asked by more experienced dancers to dance and then not know what to do. I don't want to do the asking either. What chance does an absolute beginner guy have?

I've seen other discussions where people have talked about what is needed to persuade more guys to do Ceroc. One thing I noticed last night was that there seemed to be a different age profile between the guys and the girls - the average age of the guys seemed to be a bit higher, though I may have been mistaken - to tell the truth, I hardly noticed the guys anyway. (What do you expect?)

I guess the big thing is about perception. I'm not going to be telling all my friends that I went to a dance class last night. It's just like in "Shall We Dance" if you've seen it. There's a lot of stigma attached to the idea of guys wanting to actually learn how to dance. I guess as we mature that tends to diminish.

I'm not really sure how to combat this problem. I hesitate to mention this, but one thing I did enjoy last night was meeting so many girls so quickly. (Most of which were really nice, though there were a few we just won't talk about.) I guess it's a bit like speed dating, but with less talking and more spinning. Now maybe if this aspect was emphasised to guys more, it would get them through the door. After that they're either going to get hooked on it or not, but at least they'll have experienced it and be able to make an informed decision.

OK, I think I've written more than enough now. Anything else you want to know, just ask...

Before I go, I'd like to thank all the partners I had last night, the teacher and the taxi drivers for making my first time so much fun. I also want to thank my pal for making me go along.

Cheers!

[Minnie M]

Gosh - is this the longest first post :really:

Welcome ducasi :hug:

Good luck and hope you have many many great dancing nights, and if you love dance you WILL be hooked :clap:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Hello Ducasi, and welcome to the Forum. Congratulations on taking your first Ceroc class, and it's nice to hear it was a positive experience for you!

And this is where we get to the big problem for me. The one thing that is putting me off going back is the pressure on the guy to lead. I don't want to find myself asked by more experienced dancers to dance and then not know what to do. I don't want to do the asking either. What chance does an absolute beginner guy have?
I agree it's a nightmare at the end of your first class, worrying about having to lead a whole dance when it seems that *everyone* in the room is better than you, and going to to be judging your 'performance.' The first thing to remember is that everyone in the room has been through exactly the experience you mention - and they remember well what it felt like. Once you've been to two or three classes (especially when you re-learn a move that you already know, an there are newer members than you) you'll pick up a bit more confidence.

As for asking or being asked to dance - set yourself a target for the next class: promise yourself to ask, say, three or four ladies also attending the revision class, the taxi-dancer(s) and one 'intermediate' dancer for a dance. Only then allow yourself to go home. That's the *only* way to learn to turn the steps into a dance.

Of course your efforts are likely all to go pear-shaped, you'll probably have to stop in the middle of the songs to find your feet again, you might lose the beat, and the look of concentration on your face will be like in the hardest exam you've ever sat. Don't worry about it, that's all totally normal. Instead of giving yourself a hard time when it goes wrong, give yourself a mental pat on the back everytime you get something (anything!) right - a move completed smoothly - a second move attached to the first - and so on. Make it a positive thing, not a negative. Remember *Everyone* has the same experience at the start, and no-one is going to look down on you for having the guts to get out on the dance-floor and learn - quite the opposite in fact.

Remind yourself that it's going to take probably a couple of months until you start to feel 'comfortable' with leading a dance, but two months is actually a really short time when you look back on it. The trick is to make sure that you have enough fun at each Ceroc night you go to make it worthwhile in its own right. You'll also find you start to recognise other people who are also just starting out which is a great help in feeling more confident in yourself.

In between classes it can help if you step through the moves (as much as you can remember - don't panic if you don't) to some music at home.

Just one more comment: when you say "The good part: You get to stay put on the floor all the time." - do remember to move your feet with the moves, as you lead your partner. I'm sure you are remembering to do that, right?

All the best and hope to see you on a dance-floor in London sometime!

PS remember to ask the Taxi-dancers to dance - for all but the last 45 minutes or so of each evening, they're only allowed to dance with newer members (such as yourself), so don't feel reticent about using them. It's what they're there for.

i

[Andy McGregor]

I guess it's a bit like speed dating, but with less talking and more spinning.
Maybe we should run 'Spin Dating' nights where you meet dizzy women for 3 minutes :whistle:

What a FAB post! :clap:

I'm sure this is what goes through the minds of many guys when they start MJ. It is very scary, you don't know anyone, you know much less than your dance partner and you're supposed to be in charge and show them what to do! This makes your first few weeks feel very difficult. The good news is that everyone is so friendly, and forgiving of beginners - in fact, most women who do MJ are very forgiving and encouraging to any men, no matter how long they've been dancing :flower:

The good news for ducasi is that next week he will be twice as good!

Now here is the advice I always give men like ducasi who really seem to enjoy their first night;

DON'T GO BACK!!

Stop now while you still can! There's no hope for us addicts (especially those of us on here :sick: ), but it's not too late to save yourself. Find youself a nice, easy to quit hobby like fishing :devil: :wink:

[Lynn]

And this is where we get to the big problem for me. The one thing that is putting me off going back is the pressure on the guy to lead. I don't want to find myself asked by more experienced dancers to dance and then not know what to do. I don't want to do the asking either. What chance does an absolute beginner guy have? This bit will get easier - at first you are trying to remember all the moves you have learnt. Learning to lead develops as you practice. Pick your favourite move from the night, the one you can remember easily and if you get stuck, go back to that one. And an important point is that everyone has been a beginner at some stage and so know what its like - and most experienced women won't mind at all if you get a lead wrong - just smile, and keep going!

And welcome to the forum! :grin:

[ChrisA]

Hi, and welcome !!!!!

:cheers:

I really enjoyed reading your post, Ducasi. I thought it was very interesting, and I'm really impressed that you managed to observe and reflect on so much, despite being so new to it all - the early lessons were much more of a blur for me :)


And this is where we get to the big problem for me. The one thing that is putting me off going back is the pressure on the guy to lead. I don't want to find myself asked by more experienced dancers to dance and then not know what to do. I don't want to do the asking either. What chance does an absolute beginner guy have?

Every chance, in fact. :D

Most people remember that they were beginners once, and will cut you a lot of slack.

If you get some really good experienced ladies to dance with a bit, they'll do nothing that you don't lead, which is fantastic for learning, even though it can feel a bit embarrassing to start with.

Don't be reluctant to ask people to dance, even if you just know three or four moves. Concentrate on giving clear but gentle leads, and people will like dancing with you, cos it's not about doing huge numbers of complicated moves, it's about making the ones you do, feel nice.

Aim to learn to freestyle just one, or maybe two new moves each week. They'll still build up quite quickly, but at a comfortable pace you'll be dancing them much better than if you rush to learn too many too soon.

It'll feel awkward to begin with, but press through the awkwardness, no matter how bad you think you are. There will soon be beginners even newer than you and you won't be the least experienced dancer in the room for long :)

Whatever you do, don't pressure yourself into thinking that you should be better than you are, cos that way the pressure will slow your progress. Just keep at it, ask for feedback when you dance with more experienced people, and dance as often as you can.

Keep posting, it'll be great to hear how you get on. :flower:

Welcome again to the forum - it can be a bit of a madhouse sometimes, and lots of obsessive dancers hang out here, but you never know, you might end up one yourself :D

All the best!

[Tiggerbabe]

Just one more comment: when you say "The good part: You get to stay put on the floor all the time." - do remember to move your feet with the moves
I'm guessing he means that as a man you don't have to move in the rotation and so are "on" the floor the whole time - I could be wrong though :whistle: :whistle:

Glad you enjoyed your first night Ducasi, as everyone as said, next week you'll enjoy even more, and there will be one move in next week's beginner's routine that you have already done. :D :clap:

[clevedonboy]

Just chipping in to reinforce what others have said - be bold. I'm a bit of a newbie myself having started in Oct 2004 but things are a bit different for us as it's leroc (so no taxi dancers). The first few weeks I found really scary but most of the more experienced ladies in the class were really considerate & some were downright forceful in making me dance (in a kind way), After four or five sessions though I felt confident enough to string together combinations of moves (badly at first of course) but once I reached that point it was all systems go.

I'm now going to two classes a week and attend whatever dances / workshops I can. It's got to the point now where I hardly dance with my partner at all (slight exageration there)

[Andy McGregor]

I'm now going to two classes a week and attend whatever dances / workshops I can. It's got to the point now where I hardly dance with my partner at all (slight exageration there)
It's two classes a week now, but soon it will be three, then 4, then you'll be counting the nights you don't dance "I don't usually dance on Sundays - unless there's a T-Dance within 100 miles". You'll find yourself saying "I know I seem to be obsessed but I could quit any time I choose".

Face it clevedonboy, you're hooked.

Go dancing every night, you know you want to :devil:

[Lory]

Hi,

I went to a Ceroc class for the first yesterday. I thought I would share my impressions.

~HUGE SNIP~

Cheers!
Hi Ducasi and welcome to the forum :nice:

I really enjoyed reading about your first experience and look forward to some further installments as the weeks go on! :flower:

I'd like to offer my words of wisdom! :D

In six weeks from now you'll be absolutely amazed how much you know! :clap: Then in another 2 years from then, you'll be amazed how little you still know! :rolleyes: :hug:

[Tiggerbabe]

In six weeks from now you'll be absolutely amazed how much you know! :clap: Then in another 2 years from then, you'll be amazed how little you still know! :rolleyes: :hug:
Wise words, indeed, Ms Lory :hug: :D

[John S]

Excellent post, Ducasi, very perceptive and some good analysis of why men find it more difficult to begin with than ladies.

And you even noticed that the average age is higher for men than women - not something that had ever occurred to me (yeah, right! :whistle: :whistle: )

Which prompts the thought, is it fair to say that a lot of ladies in the 45-55 age bracket who come along soon give up because the men who are the same age are too busy dancing with the younger fillies? (Not that this applies to me, as I'm in altogether different age bracket :tears: )

But back to Ducasi's post. You've already taken several bold steps - you've gone along to somewhere new/strange, you've challenged the male ego problem by dancing with women who are better dancers than you, and you've gone public on a forum with a worldwide readership to confess that you enjoyed dancing!

So now, just keep being brave - as well as the valuable suggestions already made, get along to a beginners' workshop if you can, try out a party night as an incentive to see how much fun Ceroc can be, and if you feel like getting in touch with any local Forum members then do so - some of us are almost normal. :what:

Oh, and do keep on enjoying the company of younger women. :devil:

[bigdjiver]

When I got there I was surprised by a couple of things. First, "joining" Ceroc is very simple - I didn't have to give any details at all about myself, not even my name. Second, I thought there would be a bigger fuss made of a new person, but there didn't seem to be anyone there to do that. In Ceroc Central new members have to fill in a membership form, and are usually guided through the process by a Taxi-dancer, who gives them basic info..


... the moves we were learning that night looked very complicated. I'm really surprised that I managed to learn it at all. It would be nice to know what these "complicated" moves were. We have regular discussions on this forum about what moves should be beginner moves.

... I was quickly adopted by one of the taxi dancers, and she stuck with me the rest of the session. She was just brilliant and helped me a lot (when she wasn't managing to confuse me. :) )

I don't know what I did to receive her dedicated attention - there were maybe 4 or 5 other new people... The question ...


So, I guess I've just revealed that I'm male..., and perhaps the answer. I got flak for suggesting that the Taxi dancers should give the men more support, so they could participate fully sooner.


I had tried to hide by making myself busy having some water and talking to the taxi dancer, but she had to go and arrange the revision bit and I was left alone and vulnerable. I suggest that you do not hide. I suggest that you watch, and start picking out simple moves that you like. There are so that are so simple and obvious that they hardly seem worth calling a move at all. If asked explain that it is only your second night, and ask if they mind going through the lesson with you. Most people enjoy showing what they know and helping people, and it is an investment in the future for them. Do not be deterred if they feel that they are not up to helping a beginner.



And this is where we get to the big problem for me. The one thing that is putting me off going back is the pressure on the guy to lead. I don't want to find myself asked by more experienced dancers to dance and then not know what to do. I don't want to do the asking either. What chance does an absolute beginner guy have? You have to learn to ask, and to accept the occasional rejection, and not bother about it. Do not assume that you know why you were rejected. I suggest that you watch while all the asking is being done. If not asked, pick someone, tell them that you are a beginner, and ask if they will let you try and go through the lesson with them. By this time you will only be using up half of the track anyway, and they would only be standing there otherwise.

Welcome, enjoy, and thanks for sharing.

[clevedonboy]

It's two classes a week now, but soon it will be three, then 4, then you'll be counting the nights you don't dance "I don't usually dance on Sundays - unless there's a T-Dance within 100 miles". You'll find yourself saying "I know I seem to be obsessed but I could quit any time I choose".

Face it clevedonboy, you're hooked.

Go dancing every night, you know you want to :devil:

Other things do get in the way at the mo (I suppose they could be dropped)

This week is a bit busy now though - class on thurs, dance on fri, workshop and dance on sat, dance on sun, class on mon. I'm not sure if my body can cope with it.

We do try to practice for half an hour on days we can't dance though and cooking last night was a bit awkward when trying to work out the mechanics of one of those devilish half pretzel, travel, secret move, travel, teapot, travel etc moves - I think I need a bigger kitchen

[Piglet]

Hiya Ducasi

Cheers for the enjoyable-to-read posting. I've been dancing since April last year and I can empathise with a lot of what you said - I found as a beginner lady I had to learn all the moves (from the female perspective) which was probably a nightmare for the experienced dancers to have to put up with cos I was probably leading far more than being followed... There's a surprise!

My first night: I didn't even stay beyond the revision class cos it was terrifying to go back up to the room where all the great dancers were. I got over that fear by my second visit though. :)

My advice is to go over the steps at home again - I used to "dance" myself to sleep by playing a CD and going over the moves in my head - but I found that I needed to know the names of all of the moves in order to do that and I was fooled for a bit by the variations and hadn't realised there were variations... eg. First Move Push Spin and First Move "whatever" the other one is called - can't believe I'm having trouble remembering but I can do the move so obviously the names aren't so important these days.

Also try to share a couple of words with your partners during the beginners' class because then you will find it is easier to go and ask that person for a dance because you already have a "bond" of sorts. And really try to dance with the ones that you felt the class went well with.

I might copy your email and paste it to send to the the guys I've been trying to get to come along since I've started. It's maybe not their thing (they must be mad!) but it'd be nice to see them just give ceroc a chance.

Have fun and remember to laugh when things go wrong - I had such a better laugh when I was learning than I do now that I know some of the moves much better. But I do enjoy when things go wrong (with most partners) because we just crack up.

Happy cerocking!
Pamela

[Chef]

Welcome Ducasi

Welcome to both the forum and to dance. Congratulations on such an excellent "maiden speech". It was like re living my first Ceroc night.

All advice that has been said before has been excellent and I would just add my bit which is to get yourself booked on the next available beginners workshop. I found that it was absolutely excellent. The group was smaller, taught in greater detail, at a slower pace and great tips on how to put things together to form a freestyle.

Be keen. The world loves someone that tries. I made joke of this point and equiped my shirt with drivers L plates with the words "Help Wanted" written on them. The humour of it and setting out my desire to learn meant that the help came to me faster than I could seek it out.

I had to giggle about your point about not telling the guys that you had been out dancing last night. Some guys I know would find it easier to come out to theri mates that they were gay rather than tell them they were dancing.

If you ever feel that then remember this. During an episode of "strictly come dancing" a rugby player called Martin Offiah was being trained to dance Rumba. His professional partner had him stand still as she walked all around him placing and rubbing her hands all over his body while saying "as the training goes on I will be touching you more and more and wearing less and less until the end of the week when I will be all over you and almost naked". Martins response was "this is a lot better than being pulled down into the mub by a lot of sweaty guys". Darn right. I would rather be dancing with the ladies than belching with the guys.

Once again, Welcome and a great first post.

Happy Dancing

[Andy McGregor]

This week is a bit busy now though - class on thurs, dance on fri, workshop and dance on sat, dance on sun, class on mon. I'm not sure if my body can cope with it.

Welcome to my world :flower:

[Bigger Andy]

Hi Ducasi !

Welcome to the forum !

Excellent first post. It accurately describes what we have all been through.

Well done for taking the plunge and giving Ceroc a go ! :worthy:




I had tried to hide by making myself busy having some water ...

I hid by concentrating on the text I was sending to my friend to say how much I'd enjoyed it. I haven't really said here how much I enjoyed the whole night. Ceroc dancing is remarkably easy and really good fun. During the lesson I couldn't stop grinning I was having such a good time. :D

After sending the text, I made my escape before I was accosted again ...



What I would suggest is that you focus on the fun that you obviously had. :D
If you want that to continue you will have to stop trying to hide :whistle: and keep going !

Go for it ! You know you want to ! :clap:




I hesitate to mention this, but one thing I did enjoy last night was meeting so many girls so quickly. (Most of which were really nice, though there were a few we just won't talk about.) I guess it's a bit like speed dating, but with less talking and more spinning. Now maybe if this aspect was emphasised to guys more, it would get them through the door. After that they're either going to get hooked on it or not, but at least they'll have experienced it and be able to make an informed decision.



I have tried this approach with some of my workmates but it still didn't work ! :sad: :confused:

Oh well, they don't know what they are missing ! :grin:




In six weeks from now you'll be absolutely amazed how much you know! :clap:
Then in another 2 years from then, you'll be amazed how little you still know! :rolleyes: :hug:


:yeah:
That is exactly how I feel !

[Dreadful Scathe]

Welcome to the forum Ducasi. Very interesting and well written post, you need to post more, we dont get many quality posts round here ;)

Just keep going to classes, a bit of patience is all it takes. :)

[spindr]

Ok, here's the big secret...
...classes don't help, if you can't apply them...
...you'll only learn to dance freestyle, if you actually dance freestyle...
...if you make mistakes, then congratulations you're learning!

If you don't get to practice outside of the rigid class environment, then it's much, much harder to remember moves, improvise, etc., etc.

If you start hiding away, then you're probably going to find it more difficult the week after, etc., etc.

Remember the ladies who asked you to dance this week, and ask them next week -- they'll probably be delighted to be asked. Then when you're still confident, ask someone new.

SpinDr.

P.S. The other big secret: dancing's too importany to take seriously -- so smile.

[DianaS]

Hi,

And this is where we get to the big problem for me. The one thing that is putting me off going back is the pressure on the guy to lead. I don't want to find myself asked by more experienced dancers to dance and then not know what to do. I don't want to do the asking either. What chance does an absolute beginner guy have?
Cheers!

Hi
I don't know about other people but its lovely dancing with an absolute beginner, they never complain at you and smile and say how well you dance... and are kind of coy and absolutely adorable :whistle:
We fight over guys like you in our place,
once they've been dancing for a while sometimes they move on and you loose them
But at your stage they are putty in our hands!
Just ask the girls to treat you gentle and they will :cheers:
Di

[Allez-Cat]

I thought there would be a bigger fuss made of a new person, but there didn't seem to be anyone there to do that.

Any Franchisees reading this take note: it’s vital that the newcomers are made to feel welcome right from the outset, and part of this is sitting them down at the start to briefly explain “the drill”. This didn’t happen to me initially, but I have witnessed it done at certain locations, and it was very obvious just how welcome it made the newbies feel.


I was quickly adopted by one of the taxi dancers, and she stuck with me the rest of the session. She was just brilliant and helped me a lot

The importance of the taxi dancers cannot be stressed highly enough. To this day (a couple of years down the line…) I can still clearly remember the emotional roller-coaster ride from near-suicidal depression over a badly-fluffed move to the endorphin high of the first “wow!” from a dance partner. And all through it I knew I could turn to those wonderfully indulgent taxis for advice, encouragement, or just a shoulder to cry on. And it’s curious how I’ll still seek each of them out from time to time for a special dance, as if re-affirming a bond by showing them what they helped to create. And if that sounds emotive, sure – dance is emotive!



I was asked to dance during the "freestyle" bit after the beginner's session by an intermediate.

Same happened to me Ducasi. If you find an experienced dancer (other than a taxi) with whom you “click” ask her if she wouldn’t mind dancing with you again – then make a regular thing of it (adoption in reverse!). Most folk will be marginally flattered, and you then set a benchmark for your own progress.

May I add a small word? Two years (or whatever) down the line, remember how grateful you were , and seek out the newbies yourself! Most of us do, but some seem to lose touch…..

Enjoy!

[philsmove]

Welcome


Being new at any club can be an intimidating experience

But rest assured, the ability to lead does come and remarkably quickly too

like many skills, it needs practice, then suddenly, something “clicks “ and you can do it …...Not very well but enough to come back ....... again and again and again



I don't want to find myself asked by more experienced dancers to dance and then not know what to do. I
Its when they stop asking you want to worry

[Gadget]

just to add my welcomes - nothing much more to add to all the advice.
I reacon that the not filling in a membership form was a bit of an oversight; there is normally someone to go over it with you, and usuallly a taxi to give you a heads-up on what to expect.

Best peice of advice I could give: don't stop dancing. If ( when:rolleyes: ) something goes wrong, laugh and carry on. If the lady is still infront of you and hasn't walked away in disgust {I dont think that's happened yet}, then everything is OK, you're forgiven, and she is still wanting to dance with you. :D :D

Oh yea, as well as the dancing being quite addictive, so is this forum :wink:

[ducasi]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the kind words and helpful advice. :nice:

I'm sorry I don't have time to reply properly just now but hopefully I'll have time at the weekend.

I've just got two wee related comments to make just now...

I may have over-egged my feelings of helplessness and vulnerability just to emphasis the sorts of things I was feeling. Maybe it wasn't so bad.

All the people telling me to laugh off the blunders and such - I was nearly killing myself laughing a lot of the time during the lesson either because I'd messed up or because I'd done it right! :waycool:

I'm also wondering if there's anyone here who was there the other night and recognise my tale...

Later dudes,

Ducasi :wink:

[Andy McGregor]

reacon
The other advice I can give the newby who decides to join the forum is to spell check. Gadget has moved bad spelling to a new level: almost an art form. And as that niche is now filled please feel free to spell correctly ...

[Sheepman]

The one thing that is putting me off going back is the pressure on the guy to lead. I don't want to find myself asked by more experienced dancers to dance and then not know what to do. It sounds like you got something out of the night, so don't even think of giving up until you've been at least 6 weeks, (with freestyling!) The bad news is, that feeling about more experienced dancers asking you to dance might never go away! It just gets a little easier each time.

Those ladies that are just starting out will no doubt have exactly the same feeling about dancing with more experienced dancers, so you can be helping each other out by freestyling together, it's far more productive (and much more fun!) than going home! But you must also "take the bull by the horns" to dance with the more experienced dancers, and don't be embarrassed to ask a friendly face for feedback and advice. OK it is the taxi dancers job to do this, but I think most people will be happy to do so.

Greg

[bigdjiver]

The other advice I can give the newby who decides to join the forum is to spell check. Gadget has moved bad spelling to a new level: almost an art form. And as that niche is now filled please feel free to spell correctly ... :devil: Is there a case for asking everybody to pronounce the language "correctly" too? :devil: :whistle:

[Allez-Cat]

"take the bull by the horns"

Baa-baas, piggy-wigs, frogs, stripey donks, fluffy bunnies, tiggers, a pink panther, shaggy gorillas, canines of all shapes & sizes, lots of felines, a few blobs and the occasional homo sapiens - even a wee blue thing of indeterminate origin: but no bulls. Not yet, anyway.

Sorry, off thread! :grin:

[Gadget]

The other advice I can give the newby who decides to join the forum is to spell check. Gadget has moved bad spelling to a new level: almost an art form. And as that niche is now filled please feel free to spell correctly ...
c..o..r...e...c...t...l...e..y
no?

[Clive Long]

The other advice I can give the newby who decides to join the forum is to spell check. Gadget has moved bad spelling to a new level: almost an art form. And as that niche is now filled please feel free to spell correctly ...

How can you be so partial and exclude the contributions made by Gus?

I am making a collection of his best

A sample of Gusisms from a randomly-selected post

chnace
dnacers
whoihc
probelm

:wink:

[Almost an Angel]

Hi Guys,

All the people telling me to laugh off the blunders and such - I was nearly killing myself laughing a lot of the time during the lesson either because I'd messed up or because I'd done it right! :waycool:



Best way to be. I still do the same (and I've been dancing for 3 years), the whole idea of the evening is a social one - we're all there to have fun. :D
The repeat/consolidation class frequently ends up with all of us laughing - normally coz of something I've said or done. :blush:

I actively encourage all the beginners to stay and dance with people that are more advanced than they are - I know it's scary :eek: and it takes a lot of courage (we've all been there)- but the rewards are well worth it. As a man dancing with a more experienced lady, she will follow what you actually lead, not what you think you're leading, and this isn't meant nastily - for example - if you keep trying to lead a particular move only to have the lady do something different, when she's done exactly the same thing 3 or 4 times in a row, it suddenly hits you you've been leading a different move. :clap: :D

Keep up with the classes and the freestyle and soon you'll be as addicted as the rest of us, OK maybe not as addicted as Mr MacGregor!!! :wink:

Angel xx

[ducasi]

Hi Everybody,

First I want to thank you all for the really welcoming and supportive messages. I'm touched. :hug:

Now I'll try to answer all the points made and questions raised...

I'm still planning to go back this week. I fully plan to stick with it. I had a lot of fun the first night and don't expect I'll not enjoy it again. I don't think I'm "hooked" just yet, but I can see how it can happen.

The night after I went I couldn't sleep properly. It took me ages to get to sleep and I woke up at about 4am and couldn't get back to sleep. I guess this is down to the adrenaline or whatever the hormones are that you are filled with after so much fun and excitement. Instead of lying in bed with dance moves going through my head I got up and wrote my first message for these forums.

Anyway, I guess I'm going to turn into an insomniac dance and forums addict. Or else it'll be the death of me.

I hope I'll do better this week during the freestyle periods. The girl that asked me for a dance last week probably didn't know I was an absolute beginner and she seemed to be very advanced in comparison to me. As I had never, ever, properly led a ceroc dance at that time you have to understand why I feel it didn't really work out well for me.

This week I'll try to ask one of the other novices I met last week (if they come back) for a dance, and at least we'll be in the same boat, and not facing the daunting prospect of dancing with someone who could overwhelm them.

OK, I know it's important to dance with people who are more experienced than you are, but let's take one step at a time. Hopefully the same taxi dancer will be there this week and will take pity on me again. (Or maybe she really did find me cute! :wink: )

(bigdjiver speculated that it was because I was the only male beginner which led to my adoption by the taxi dancer, but there were three of us, and only I got this one-to-one attention. Although as I said in my first message, it's a possibility she just didn't see the others.)

I don't think I'll stay long after the consolidation class. Again, this time I'll try to have maybe one dance with another beginner, but I'll probably head home early again, and see if I can't chill out and get a good night's sleep. (How do other people chill out after a class?)

Again, I need to emphasis how hard this whole thing is for guys. Unless I'm dancing with a girl who's also learnt the male parts, my partner doesn't really understand what it's like to be a guy starting off.

Just to make it clear - I'm not worried about rejection. Or at least, that's not my main worry. I'm tough enough, and had enough rejections in the past not to let it get to me. It's really about the dancing.

Maybe I just don't understand yet leading and following. It looks to me to be some sort of magic. How can the girl possibly know what she's supposed to be doing based on what random things I happen to be doing with my hands and feet?

Our teacher taught us to do we semi-circles with our hands to indicate to our partner that we were about to step back (or something like that.) Is this leading or signalling or part of the move? I understand that signalling is frowned upon by some people - I also understand why.

A related worry is that even if i manage to lead effectively, I'm not so sure I will be able to string together moves effectively. This actually breaks down into two perceived problems...

1. Knowing what move you want to do next but finding out too late that you're using the wrong hand going in. Leading to a bit of a mess. Seems like you have to remember moves as being either right-right moves or left-right moves, and god help you if it gets any more complicated than that!

2. Coming up with interesting, exciting, imaginative moves all at the same time as your poor head is struggling trying to remember what it's supposed to be doing right now, never mind in a few seconds time. Even if I get good at the individual moves, how do I decide what I'm going to do next? Ceilidh dancing is pretty easy in this regard - you're all doing the same thing and if you're not, you're doing it wrong and can just copy someone else who seems to know what they're doing.

I'd like to go to a beginner's workshop where perhaps all this will become a lot clearer. Unfortunately, the one announced at the class clashes with an appointment I have with my mother (Mother's day, 6th March!) Hopefully there'll be another one soon after - can I ask that you try to avoid Easter? :nice:

John S asked an interesting question about age difference and whether older ladies are put off because older guys didn't ask them to dance. I'd guess it's just that proportionally more older guys go because there are fewer younger guys - less competition. :what:

I can't fully remember the moves we learnt last week - I've got the outline in my head, but there were probably more turns and such that I can't remember. As for their names...

* Well, the first one was called something like "shoulder drop". It took a while for me to learn to turn the right way, but otherwise, not so bad. We did a cool pull through thing on the end of that that probably has its own name.

* Then we did something like "reverse male spin". If anyone can correct me on these names, I'd be grateful. That wasn't so difficult, though I usually managed to either catch the girl with the wrong hand, or just miss her completely. This made the next move trickier. There was probably a turn stuck on the end of this move too.

* So next was the "back pass". I've read the other thread about this one, and I'm not 100% sure whether we were taught to let go and then catch the girl's hand, or whether to actually pass it from hand to hand. I am 100% sure, however that I was letting go and trying to catch. Again, missing the catch makes leading into the next move difficult. Once, more we probably had a turn or something at this point.

* The last move we learnt was the source of much of my confusion. You know why. Because although it was the last move we did, it was called the "first move". In fact it was a "first move push spin". So every time the teacher said "first move" I was thinking "shoulder drop", rather than "fancy side-to-side thing".

The biggest problem I had with the first move was remembering to step back as I turned the girl. That said, I also had problems getting the right palm-to-palm thing for the push spin. It seemed to me that leading well is much more important in this move, and my taxi dancer was very keen to make me try harder with this. Of course the push spin would end with me either not catching my partner or using the wrong hand.

So as you see this problem with knowing what hand to use to go into the next move isn't just academic, every time I let go of the girl's hand I had a 50/50 chance of coming back with the wrong hand afterwards.

I had a wee practice session with my friend and that went quite well, though that might have been because we were a little bit drunk. We didn't really practice for long though, it was more just so I could show her what I'd learnt.

Last thing... about what I said about not telling my mates. I'm not really concerned that they'll think it's "gay" or whatever, but that they'll make a fuss about it. Especially about why I'm doing it. I could just do without the hassle. I think though that if I get into it, and get at least semi-decent, then I'll not keep it a deep dark secret. I've already told a couple of people.

And so to end, I want to again thank you all for your support, helpful hints and pointers.

Again, I'm wondering where all the people I met last week are on this forum. I guess my location might have given away where my class is. By describing the moves I learnt, that must give it away to the people who were there, no? So, why has no-one posted who is from Glasgow? (Or at least who won't admit it directly?)

And that's me done. Thanks for reading this far!

Cheers!

[bigdjiver]

Hi ...
... The night after I went I couldn't sleep properly. It took me ages to get to sleep and I woke up at about 4am and couldn't get back to sleep. I guess this is down to the adrenaline or whatever the hormones are that you are filled with after so much fun and excitement....
Adrenaline & Endorfins, signposts on the road to Cerocaholic. You will find a lot of posts on this forum at 3am after a good freestyle.


... I don't think I'll stay long after the consolidation class. A related worry is that even if i manage to lead effectively, I'm not so sure I will be able to string together moves effectively...It takes time. In my case a long time. It was not until it sunk into so-called muscle memory that it became natural. I practised with little models made of card, paper clips and string.


I can't fully remember the moves we learnt last week ...

"shoulder drop"...
"reverse male spin"...
"back pass"...
"first move push spin"...When you get to intermediate level you will probably find that you cannot remember the moves you learnt half an hour ago. It does not matter. It is not an exam. As long as you are progressing. and having fun.

The shoulder drop is one of the latest innovations to the beginners class, and I, and others, questioned whether it was too difficult to be used as a beginners move. I would rate those four together as at the higher end of difficulty for beginner routine. Well done.


...knowing what hand to use to go into the next move isn't just academic ...I still mess up in the beginners class. Now it is because it has sunk into "muscle" memory, and I automatically catch with the habitual hand that I use for that move in freestyle, because certain moves I use for hand changing. You will learn to be able to change hands quickly, when necessary.

I tell beginners - "Keep moving, keep smiling".

I suggest that you consider staying and watching. If you watch the taxi-dancers and other beginners you will get further consolidation of what you have learned, and preparation for what you will be learning. You may also see other simple things that you can add to your collection without the need for a class.

[TheTramp]

Hi Everybody,
Hi Dr. Nick!! :whistle:

Again, I'm wondering where all the people I met last week are on this forum. I guess my location might have given away where my class is. By describing the moves I learnt, that must give it away to the people who were there, no? So, why has no-one posted who is from Glasgow? (Or at least who won't admit it directly?)
I'm not from Glasgow. But you posted last Thursday, so I figure that you went to the Wednesday class, in the union, with Mairi teaching (I also have a vague recollection of the beginners class that night, and it sounds like what you were describing above).

I was the DJ last Wednesday anyhow. Covering for the usual guy (CJ), who was away down south. Won't be there often, but I do get through occasionally. Next time I'm there, make sure that you come and say hello (I'm the bald, fat, ugly one who can't dance - bearded at the moment, but that'll come off when Wales have finished winning the 6 nations this year!).

And can I also congratulate you on the clear, concise, easy-to-read posts that you've made so far. A welcome addition to the forum! :clap: :worthy:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Maybe I just don't understand yet leading and following. It looks to me to be some sort of magic. How can the girl possibly know what she's supposed to be doing based on what random things I happen to be doing with my hands and feet?

{snip}

1. Knowing what move you want to do next but finding out too late that you're using the wrong hand going in. Leading to a bit of a mess. Seems like you have to remember moves as being either right-right moves or left-right moves, and god help you if it gets any more complicated than that!

2. Coming up with interesting, exciting, imaginative moves all at the same time as your poor head is struggling trying to remember what it's supposed to be doing right now, never mind in a few seconds time. Even if I get good at the individual moves, how do I decide what I'm going to do next?
Do you remember learning to rice a bicycle? Or learning to drive? Do you remember having to think about which way to turn the handlebars when you start to topple, or worrying about not pushing the accelerator pedal at the same time as the clutch? I bet you don't give either a second thought any more.

Here's a quick experiment: stop reading for a second and take a deep breath. When you've done that, think for a second about what you just did: you seized control of a set of muscles in your body that - when you're not thinking about them - run smootly on their own. And now, having read on, you've stopped thinking about those muscles but they're still working for you.

Eventually your leading and following, and "choosing which move to do next" muscles will run along in the same quite happy way, in time with the music, until you choose to pay particular attention to them - to hit a break, to insert a new move that you've just learnt, or whatever - leaving "you" to concentrate on being musical, looking at your partner, making sure not to bump into other dancers and so on. It's not surprising that to start with you're all of a muddle about things like which hand your holding with.

I'm not saying that because you need to worry now about making it automatic - simply so you now have an idea of what you can look forward to in the weeks and months to come.


I don't think I'll stay long after the consolidation class.
Please do stay for at least a few songs. I realise that it's tiring, but making use of the period immediately after the lessons is the quickest way to improve for the least relative effort.

Thank you for an astonishingly lucid and readable account of your experiences. I don't know if it helps to keep hearing it, but much of what you say resonates deeply with what I remember from my first few lessons - and I'm sure that goes for many others too.

I very much look forward to hearing how the second lesson goes.

[Lory]

(How do other people chill out after a class?)


I get on a high from dancing too :clap: and also find it very hard to 'come down' :sad: (and I have bad news for you, if you think 'this' is bad, wait till your first weekender, :eek: I only slept for 3 hours the whole weekend :what: :sick: :tears: )
I have developed an 'after dancing routine' now.....A Hot shower, into, a warm snuggly dressing gown, followed by a large mug of hot chocolate and a good read of the forum, plus a really booooooorrrrring computor game :blush: ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz ;)



I very much look forward to hearing how the second lesson goes. :yeah:

[philsmove]

The last move we did, it was called the "first move".

Yes this confused me

As every says, don’t worry too much, it all starts coming together remarkably quickly



Instead of lying in bed with dance moves going through my head I got up and wrote my first message for these forumsYou find the forum remarkably busy between 1 and 3 am

[jivecat]

Which prompts the thought, is it fair to say that a lot of ladies in the 45-55 age bracket who come along soon give up because the men who are the same age are too busy dancing with the younger fillies?


Not all of us, John S. Some of us have stayed the course - it's dancing with all those young colts that keeps us going.
:drool: :yum:

[jivecat]

I get on a high from dancing too :clap: and also find it very hard to 'come down' :sad: (and I have bad news for you, if you think 'this' is bad, wait till your first weekender, :eek: I only slept for 3 hours the whole weekend :what: :sick: :tears: )
I have developed an 'after dancing routine' now.....A Hot shower, into, a warm snuggly dressing gown, followed by a large mug of hot chocolate and a good read of the forum, plus a really booooooorrrrring computor game :blush: ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz ;)

:yeah:

Yes, I discovered this is quite normal. I used to have to have a shower, a glass of sherry (?!) and watch Corrie on video before there was the slightest chance of any sleep. But now I don't get that adrenalin high to nearly the same degree, bit sad, really. Having said that, I've had two great nights this weekend, at Coventry and Wes's teadance, and moves, tunes and partners are still zipping through my head!

Great debut thread, Ducasi, I hope we'll be hearing more from you.

[John S]

it's dancing with all those young colts that keeps us going.

Glad to hear it - at my age I had hoped to be put out to stud, but instead I've just been put out to grass. :sad:

[ducasi]

Hi Guys,

Well I went to my second night last night. I'll try to make this wee report a little more concise than the last one. :wink:

Basically we learned four and a half moves last night. They were... um...

1. "In Out" - this was the half move. This was only used as an intro to lead into...

2. "Basket" - quite tricky getting my feet and arms in the right places. I think this was just with a simple return.

3. "Shoulder Drop" or "Slide" or something like that. Fairly easy. More turning for the poor girl.

4. "Yo-yo" with push-spin. Another tricky one. Don't think I really got this one sorted out. You pull the girl in to the side, push her away, then you twist round, pulling her back to a quarter turn, before push-spinning her clock-wise. right?

5. "Side to Side" - pretty easy.

Alas I wasn't adopted by a taxi dancer this week, so I had to slug it out with the mixed bag of women there - by mixed bag, I mean varying in experience. :grin: Some were really nice and helpful, and seemed to know what they were doing, or seemed at least to be following my lead. Others... well it felt like I was dancing with a wet rag. Oh dear. :sad:

The freestyle dancing still scares the hell out of me. I was able to watch it much closer this week than last and it looks even more difficult. I had planned to ask one of the beginners I had just met for a dance, but the ones I had thought suitable were already taken. At least it gave me a chance to get my breath back.

On to the revision class. This was again very useful. We got to practice our leading and following with the in-out move. Maybe I'm a bad lead, but my partners certainly weren't following me very well.

While I improved my basket, I don't think we had long enough of the yo-yo and I didn't seem to do as well revising it and learning it.

We didn't have time to revise the side-to-side with travelling return, but it was probably the easiest move of the night.

At the end of the revision class, just before we were to go back for more freestyle, the fire alarm went off. I had fully intended to try at least one dance after the revision, but instead I took my coat and left.

I had things to do, and didn't know for sure how long it would take to get back in. Even if it had only been a wee while, the iron wouldn't be hot enough to strike.

And that's me done for another week. Didn't get much sleep last night again - even after using my "chill out" shower gel. Not as bad as last week though.

Still curious where all the Glasgow people are on this board, there has to be more than well, the one person who made themselves know. (Sorry I missed you last night - I think I spotted you, but didn't get a chance to say "hi".)

Bye for now... :wink:

[TheTramp]

On to the revision class. This was again very useful. We got to practice our leading and following with the in-out move. Maybe I'm a bad lead, but my partners certainly weren't following me very well.
Ah. Don't be discouraged.

What you have to remember is that while you're beginning to learn how to lead, the ladies are beginning to learn how to follow too. It's bound to take a little time for both of you to click.

Give it a few weeks, and you'll be surprised at the difference (usually :whistle: )....

Maybe see you at the Glasgow party on the 12th? I'm hoping to make it through this month. (Though, it is rather a lot of freestyle all in one place).

[Minnie M]

It really would help if forumites put (at least their location) on :-


Still curious where all the Glasgow people are on this board, there has to be more than well, the one person who made themselves know. (Sorry I missed you last night - I think I spotted you, but didn't get a chance to say "hi".)

and also if the are male or female :rolleyes:

It takes about 10 visits before it REALLY kicks in Keep it going ducasi - we were all there at one time and look at us now :rolleyes: try going more a couple (or three times if you can make it) a week until you start getting your confidence

[ducasi]

Maybe see you at the Glasgow party on the 12th? I'm hoping to make it through this month. (Though, it is rather a lot of freestyle all in one place).Don't think I'm quite ready for that yet. :sick:

try going more a couple (or three times if you can make it) a week until you start getting your confidenceI can only make one night a week at the moment. :sad: I'm thinking about going to a beginner's workshop soon though.

Reading back my last message, I really forgot to say how much I enjoyed the class and revision. It's more fun than I deserve. :wink:

[bigdjiver]

... It's more fun than I deserve. :wink: me2 :yeah:

[Graham]

Hi ducasi,

Sorry not to reply before, but I haven't been on much and hadn't seen this thread. I think the Glasgow people on the forum are just a bit quiet at the moment (drathzel excluded, obviously :rolleyes: ) Anyway, I was the taxi dancer who took the revision class last week. Glad you're enjoying yourself, and please say "hi" if you're there on Wednesday. Thanks very much for posting at such length about your impressions - very interesting.

[ducasi]

Hi Graham,

Sorry not to reply before, but I haven't been on much and hadn't seen this thread. I think the Glasgow people on the forum are just a bit quiet at the moment (drathzel excluded, obviously :rolleyes: ) Anyway, I was the taxi dancer who took the revision class last week. Glad you're enjoying yourself, and please say "hi" if you're there on Wednesday. Thanks very much for posting at such length about your impressions - very interesting.
I have been enjoying my anonymity between the class and here these couple of weeks, but I guess people will start figuring out who I am. Especially as I expect at least one certain individual :whistle: to recognise me tomorrow, if she's there.

But as there only seems to be about three or four people on the forums who attend on Wednesdays, maybe it won't be such a problem. :wink:

Anyway, I've been picking out some of the names of people I'd come across on the nights and figured you were the same Graham. Thanks for all your help in the classes. :cheers:

Depending on how traumatised I am, I'll try to say "hi".

D.

[Magic Hans]

Learning to lead from scratch is tricky business, even with Modern Jive, which is (IMO) mechanically the simplest form of partner dance.

I (nearly) always suggest to set an initial target of learning a 4 move routine, until it is totally embedded in muscle memory (ie can be done without consious thought)

Once that target has been attained, other moves can be slotted in, every so often. Then this 4 move routine can be 5 ... 6 .... 7, etc regularly chopping and changing moves once in a while... until eventually, it's not a routine at all ..... it's freestyle!!

[skippy]

I (nearly) always suggest to set an initial target of learning a 4 move routine, until it is totally embedded in muscle memory (ie can be done without consious thought)

I agree with this :nice: , I have been a taxi dancer for over a year now and have always said the very same thing , you will gain much more confidence dancing a few moves really well than trying loads and getting them wrong. :kiss: :hug:

[skippy]

I have been enjoying my anonymity between the class and here these couple of weeks, but I guess people will start figuring out who I am.

I was on the forum nearly a year before peolpe realised who I was !!! :wink:

[Tiggerbabe]

I was on the forum nearly a year before peolpe realised who I was !!! :wink:
Peolpe - who's he? :wink: :whistle: *g, d & r*

[TheTramp]

I was on the forum nearly a year before peolpe realised who I was !!! :wink:
And who's this Skippy person too?

[ducasi]

Hi Guys,

Just back from third week. Thought I'd share the highs and lows.

Moves tonight were...

1) Ceroc spin - could never get this right, always forgot to bring my left hand up to block the lady and so used the wrong hand. :confused:

2) First move - hey, I've already done that! :grin: Still tricky to get feet where they belong.

3) Arm jive - it's looks so easy, until the teacher wanted us to do things with our feet too!!! :what:

4) Man spin - hey, done that too! This went straight into the ceroc spin which I always missed cos I was wanting to do a return or something. :blush:

I also had big problems getting (or remembering to get) the lady's other hand for the arm jive.

I never got adopted by my favourite taxi dancer this week. I guess she didn't find me that cute after all. :tears:

After the class I went to talk to the teacher about the beginner's workshop - seems to have been cancelled. Met Ceroc Jock. Hi! Liked the music, btw - especially Boogie Pimps at the start of the night. :worthy:

While I was hanging around there I watched the freestylers strut their funky stuff. They're still scary.

Quick, onto the revision class!

These help so much! :nice:

Only problem is it's even more likely you'll be dancing with beginners who have problems following, or just aren't very good. :sad:

Let me be clear here - this isn't a criticism of them. In their eyes I'm probably equally crap at leading and just a bit hopeless.

What I'm saying is that in the main class there's a better chance you'll be dancing with someone with a more experience than you, so they'll be better at following, will know the moves better, and things will go smoother. Once you leave these people to their intermediate class I'm stuck with people who are just as bad as me!

(An aside... I met a girl in the beginner's class who was there for only her second week. She seemed to be doing OK, but she seemed to need a little persuasion to come to the revision class. She left half way through it, but at least I wasn't to blame as I never got the chance to dance with her! I hope she comes back.)

After the revision, back down to the main hall... I had hoped to hide for a bit but one of the other beginners asked me to dance and I figured it would be impolite to say no. I tried to stick to the routine we'd just been taught, but my memory was on strike and I ended up improvising a bit!

So that's how you do it! You just need a crap memory! :grin:

Unfortunately, my lead maybe wasn't so good, and my partner was trying to stick rigidly to the moves we'd just learnt, and so it didn't go so great.

So I ditched her (in a nice way I hope) at the end of the song and went and found the courage to ask the taxi dancer. I knew she could dance!

It must be an occupational hazard for female taxi dancers - because they'll have learnt all the guy's parts, have been trying to help teach a particular sequence of moves, and must also be used to back-leading where necessary - that they sometimes miss the lead when a beginner does something different.

Once we'd got over that, and miss taxi dancer allowed me to lead what I wanted to do, I really think I did amazingly well. (Of course, miss taxi was so much better than me!) I did all the moves from this week - even one or two ceroc spins. Then I threw in some side-to-sides from last week. We had to do a quick revision of the yo-yo and the basket before I was able to try including them. Still need to work of them some more. Totally forgot about the shoulder drop and slide.

I decided to leave at that point - on a high note.

This actually was a bit of a turn-around. When I was watching the freestyle earlier, and knowing that the beginner's workshop had been cancelled, I wondered if I'd ever be good enough to take part, and was very close to deciding this would be my last time at ceroc.

It's all down to the two taxi dancers that I'll be back next week. (Are they ever on here?) First for the the revision class, second for encouraging and being sympathetic during our dancing. :flower:

Nevertheless, I still wonder how I'll do with someone less skilled in the moves, in following a beginner's lead, and a little less sympathetic.

We're not out of the woods just yet...

So, big thanks to the teacher, Graham the demo, Ceroc Jock and the fantastic taxis! :clap:

Big "Hi!" and thanks to all my partners through the night, though most of them don't seem to hang out here. :what:

And sorry to Graham and anyone else I didn't get a chance to say "Hi!" to.

And so to bed, to sleep, perchance to dream...

:cheers:

[TheTramp]

Nevertheless, I still wonder how I'll do with someone less skilled in the moves, in following a beginner's lead, and a little less sympathetic.
It still sounds like you're doing fine. I was reading your post thinking "Yeah, I remember that". Just like it was yesterday, and not almost 6 years ago :what: Where does the time go?

Give yourself at least another few weeks before you decide to quit. What else have you got to lose (the self respect and dignity have already gone, right :whistle: ).

I think that you'll find that at some point, it'll suddenly become a bit clearer. You'll leave one night, having done all the moves in the beginners class without really thinking about it - having done them for the 2nd or 3rd time, and the muscle memory starting to kick in a little bit.

And then a little while longer, and you'll be up, and freestyling, and some other poor beginner male will be watching you, wondering if they'll ever get it...

Hey, CJ, are you away again any time soon? I'd like to come down and say hello to Ducasi - and I can only afford to go if I'm working (poor student and all that!).

[Allez-Cat]

I wondered if I'd ever be good enough to take part, and was very close to deciding this would be my last time at ceroc.

No, no! Please, please do 6 weeks - then think again! It's an emotional roller-coaster, but it can only get progressively better.

I'm sorry I was away when you were down in Bedfordshire last time: are you likely to come down again? If so, please PM me, and if I'm around we can touch base & I can introduce you around.

Have faith, baby, have faith!

[MartinHarper]

1) Ceroc spin - could never get this right, always forgot to bring my left hand up to block the lady and so used the wrong hand. :confused:

This is a move too, though I forget what Ceroc calls it. When you feel up to it, you can experiment leading it with both hands, just the left hand, or just the right hand.


I still wonder how I'll do with someone less skilled in the moves, in following a beginner's lead, and a little less sympathetic.

Try it. :)

[Magic Hans]

....
So that's how you do it! You just need a crap memory! :grin:
....

Hey not fair!!! :angry:

That's my tactics!!!

:D

Ian

[bigdjiver]

I've forgotten what my tactics are :tears:

[Rhythm King]

Hi Ducasi

I continue to read the development of your dancing with interest. I have always likened the learning of jive to the experience of learning to drive a car. (Oh God - I'm beginning to sound like Swiss Toni - help!! :blush: ) At first there is a lot to take in and try to remember and the application may not go smoothly, stalling and kangaroo-ing along the road. As you continue to learn, the various pieces of the jigsaw fall into place, and it becomes easier to do several things at once, without so much effort. Experience and muscle memory play a large part in this.

When I started dancing, the venue had a pre-printed card included in the welcome pack. This had a matrix of 6 rows (weeks) of 4 columns (moves) printed on one side, and a numbered list of beginners moves on the other (together with whether they were left handed, right handed, or two handed - very useful). At the end of each of the first 6 classes, one could enter the relevant move numbers into the box for that week, as a handy reminder. I don't know if these are available in Scotland. I found this really useful for remembering moves and sequences. I subsequently developed a personal short-hand, for making notes of intermediate classes, which I still use for workshops. The effort of working things out and putting them into a form where I can write them down sensibly helps me to remember them.

I also recommend attending a beginner's workshop, when the chance arises, as the concentration of effort will help you leap forward the equivalent of several weeks worth of classes. One invariably finds that ladies pick up dancing faster than men, who have to overcome the feeling that they are doing something innately silly in public, as well as learn the moves and get the timing. Consider some of the weekenders too, they're not just for intermediates. My advice is: hang in there, it is so worth the effort in the long run.

Looking forward to the next instalment,

Happy Dancing

R-K

[skippy]

And who's this Skippy person too?

You know me as THUMBS!!!!! :yum: :rofl:

[fkirk10]

hye it all sounds pretty intimadating. Im gonna starty a class in glasgow and have no idea of what to expect i guess being a girl will help a little. thanks for the fore warning

[Gadget]

Welcome - I guess it is fairly intimidating; but then everything is when it's new & you are meeting new people. The best I can do is lay some of your fears at rest:
- Most folk are friendly and approachable.
- No-one expects you to be good on your first night or even remember any of the moves.
- Most of the people you will see have not been dancing that long, and after a few weeks (or longer :blush: ) you will be able to dance like that. {assuming you want to}
- The "taxi dancers" are a valuable source of knowledge and support.

Hope you have a good time :D

[icubaby]

last night was our second night at Jumpin Jacks Glasgow, and again Fantastic!

I find the first part difficult due to the many change overs and therefore break up of rythm, must say though it does introduce you to alot of wonderful people.

A big thankyou to Peter who took my gilfriend onto the floor and showed her a few moves and allowed her to be led properly without my overpowering grip and forceful twirls must get out of those bad habits along with hands too high loosing the beat and forgetting what i learnt just two minutes prior....how do you spell sivve

must take my hat off to all those great dancers...can't believe some of them have only been doing it for 6 months they look so proffessional!
the commitment is also impressive with some last night I met were from Dundee :worthy:

thanks all for making the night so enjoyable!!!

can anabody direct me to a good place for parking as the parking ticket put a bit of a dampener on things? :tears:

recommendations all over :cheers:

[Dreadful Scathe]

You know me as THUMBS!!!!! :yum: :rofl:
or Skippy Nutcracker. Franck can we change Skippys subheading to 'nutcracker' ? :)

[skippy]

or Skippy Nutcracker. Franck can we change Skippys subheading to 'nutcracker' ? :)

Who told you !!!!
:blush:

Are you going Friday? Save me dance if you are, promise will keep my hands to myself!!!! :rofl: :hug:

[ducasi]

Hi Guys,

Need to thank you all for your encouragement over these past few weeks. And also a big cheers to the other new boys and girls.

Can I just say this web site and forum needs some serious plugging at the Wednesday night class - there's so few people I've been able to find here who go to this class. (Hi there!) Either that or the lurkers need to de-cloak and identify themselves.

So, onto my weekly tale of a newbie at Ceroc.

This week was a bit difficult. Here are the moves...

1) Yoyo, this time without a push-spin, but with a spin anyway. I though the difference between a spin and a turn was that with a spin you let go? No? We were told to spin the lady, but not let go. Guess it doesn't make too much difference.

(Another brief aside - haven't had much feedback on my impressions of the moves themselves through the weeks. Anyone want to jump in with some discussion here?)

2) Catapult. Woah! This is v. tricky. It's hard to tell though if you're messing it up or it's your partner, as it's all really happening behind your back! I certainly messed it up quite a lot, but sometimes my partner at the time would be blaming herself. Maybe they were just being nice, though when I was dancing with known experienced dancers it usually seemed to go better.

3) Can't remember the name of this move - but it's dead easy... L-R hands, swap sides with guy doing 180º anticlockwise turn under his left arm, etc... What's this called?

4) That fed into the basket, with the usual botched efforts when trying to get the girl's other hand. I'm not good at baskets.

4a) During the return from the basket, swap hands to go into the yoyo... It's funny how much time the teacher and taxis spent on this as I found it dead easy. OK, maybe I'm not doing it in the most elegant fashion possible, but that'll come, I guess...

I'm beginning to get to know a few people there, which is both good and bad... Good, because you get to know them... Bad, cos they're then more likely to ask you to dance! :wink:

So even though I had decided I wouldn't, I had a few dances during the first freestyle bit. Actually, to tell the truth, it was probably me doing most of the asking! :grin:

So it was all fairly disastrous, but fun nevertheless. I'm having trouble remembering who I danced with before and after the revision class, but I'll just thank everyone who put up with my crap dancing during this time.

The revision class again was very useful. Managed to improve my yoyo and catapult vastly during this time. It's a shame we didn't manage to find a good quiet area to practice in. It seems it's the last week of term this week at Glasgow Uni and everyone is having a party.

We didn't cover the basket in the revision, but that's OK, cos I really should know it and I needed the practice more for the other moves. That said, it was total carnage on the dance-floor every time I tried it in the freestyle after. :sick:

During that time I danced with a couple of beginners, one of which didn't seem to understand that it was me who's supposed to be leading... :( Hope she get's better, cos she keeps asking me to dance! :really:

I also danced with the taxi dancer - now if only all dancers were as good, and sympathetic as the lady taxi dancers I've met at the GUU! :hug:

And I danced with a couple of intermediates (actually, one of them might have been in the first freestyle :confused: ) again of different standards, but both way better than me! :worthy: One was so much better than me it was embarrassing. :blush:

But it was fun! So I decided to run away before I was trapped by another beginner as crap as me.

And that's it.

Watching the other freestylers still terrifies me, but then it you're up dancing you don't see them. It was fun watching the last five minutes or so of the intermediate class and seeing that you can be "intermediate", but still be pretty clueless now and then. :rofl:

Think I'll try to sign up for the beginner's workshop in Edinburgh at Easter, and then see if I then want to go to the Glasgow one in April.

Hmmm... Seems that the Edinburgh beginner's is on the same day as the next Edinburgh party. Maybe I'll also make it along to that.

Hope you're enjoying reading my ramblings. Let me know what you think and tune in next week to see if I've got my baskets in order yet.

Thanks everyone. :flower:

And props to all my posse! :wink: :cheers: :hug:

[ChrisA]

Watching the other freestylers still terrifies me
Just to reassure you....

This is normal.

They were all as awkward-feeling as you at one time, and I would put money on them being a good deal less sensitive to what was going on as you are, at your stage.

Just go with it. You will continue to improve - not necessarily smoothly, since it doesn't always go without a hitch..

But you will improve.

You really will. :flower:

[Lory]

Hope you're enjoying reading my ramblings.
Continue rambling on till your hearts content, we're loving it! :cheers: :hug:

[David Bailey]

We were told to spin the lady, but not let go.
:confused: You're right - by definition, a "spin" is when the lady lets go, and a "turn" is when she doesn't, at least in Ceroc terms.

So those instructions sound a little confused :nice:

Good diary entries, by the way, keep them up!

[ducasi]

Hi!

It's that time again!

Hands up who's been on the edge of their seats waiting for the next installment? :clap: It's almost as gripping as "Desperate Housewives"! :grin: (And don't worry, I caught tonight's episode at the weekend on E4! :wink: )

So that was class number 5. Before I go any further, I've gotta say I'm really tired, c.f.
this thread on insomnia. (http://cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4981)

So, on with the class - and the first problem... finding it! They had changed to a different room upstairs. Apparently this was the regular venue up until just before I started, so it's just as well I found some other lost, but smart people. I worry that others may just have turned and left. :sad:

It's good that I'm getting to know a few people there. It makes a big difference. Easier to relax when you can chat with someone rather than just sitting there on your own, with a dazed look on your face. :what:

So, the moves!

1) Arm-jive swizzle. Pretty straight-forward. I'm not 100% up with the arm-jive itself, but the swizzle bit is cool.

2) Octopus. My big difficulty is remembering I'm going left this time!!! My lead going into the bit when I turn must be really awful as I always remember too late what I'm supposed to be doing! Otherwise, no bother.

3) Side-to-side something. The something part is where I "chuck" the girl across me into a spin and catch her on the way out. Switched to right-right hand hold at this point - took me a while to sort that out too! Can someone tell me what the "something" is called? I quite like this move. :nice:

4) Hatchback. Again, fairly easy. Biggest problem I had was with a lady who didn't want to let go of my hand and didn't want to spin. :rolleyes: I guess this is just really a variation on a yo-yo. On the return, both hands to go back into the arm-jive...

For maybe the first time I really felt "experienced" compared to some of the other beginners. In fact, I've begun to notice that even some of the "intermediate" dancers could do with a few more beginner's revisions and maybe a workshop. :grin:

It's a good feeling! I must be getting better. One girl (I can't remember if she was a first-timer or not) complimented me on my confidence. I can't remember my reaction - I hope it was a smile and a thank-you (c.f.
this thread on compliments.) (http://cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4965) Another said "this isn't your first time, is it?" I felt good.

So I danced almost all the way through the first freestyle session, pausing only for gulps of water. I tried to stick just to the moves we'd learnt in the class (as I had last week, in case I didn't say?) and that went fairly well, maybe because I was only dancing with other people who had just done the class too.

My biggest stumbling block was the octopus. Which way am I going now?!?! :blush: Everything else was pretty much OK, though sometimes I forgot what I was meant to do next... :confused:

Fortunately, almost all the partners I had all through the night were excellent back-leaders. :rolleyes:

It can really put you off someone. OK, I probably don't have the best lead in the world, and sometimes I don't know what I'm doing, but I'd rather mess up and get a puzzled look from my partner than be led into the next move.

Maybe it's not so bad when you're not doing set moves and so the girl won't know what I'm supposed to be doing, but even when I'm doing things right, too many people wanted to try and put my hands in different places from where I wanted them to go. :mad:

So, onto the beginner's revision class. Again, I felt a little like I didn't really need to be there, but I reckon it's good for technique, even if I don't have so much of a problem with the moves. I was saying this to my favourite taxi dancer :nice: and although we didn't get to finish the conversation, I think she was about to tell me that people who move up too fast end up being knowledgeable, but poor dancers. Or something like that. I'm not going to rush things anyway.

After the revision class I went back to the hall and watched the freestyle for a bit. I noticed a few guys doing dips and drops with inexperienced girls in a confined space - much frowned about around here. :angry: No sleazy behaviour to report. :cool:

I left without dancing. I just wasn't in the mood. "Tired and emotional" - and I had only been on the water all night.

Interestingly, on the way out of the GUU, there was some filming going on, with lots of lights and people and stuff. I wonder what they were making... :confused:

Anyway, I'm going to the Edinburgh beginners' workshop on Saturday. Should be fun!

I'm also maybe going to go to the Edinb' monthly party that night. Not sure yet. I'll probably be beat after the workshop, but I might go for a couple of hours.

If I do go, and I do stay, is there anyone from Glasgow who can offer me a lift home? Send me a private message, or google for me and find my email address.

And that's all I have to say! Hands up who's still reading? :clap: I know I tend to just skim these long posts. :blush: But no, not yours! :innocent:

Cheers guys, I'll see you back here on Saturday or Sunday for a report of the workshop.

Stay cool. :waycool: :hug:

[Tiggerbabe]

Thanks for the post, I'm glad to hear that you're feeling a bit more confident now.
I think it was about wks 6 - 8 before I started to think I might be getting the hang of it, but there was no way I was giving up :wink:

I'm sure you'll get a lot out of the workshop on Saturday - hope you enjoy it and I hope you manage to stay for the party ('cause I'm hoping I might actually make it through to Edinburgh :D ) :hug:

[TheTramp]

And that's all I have to say! Hands up who's still reading? :clap: I know I tend to just skim these long posts. :blush: But no, not yours! :innocent:
I'm still here.

Glad to hear that you've stuck at it, and that it's coming along nicely...

The beginners workshop on Saturday will really help I think.

And if Sheena's coming through to the party on Saturday, there's a chance that I might make it too ( :flower: <-- for Sheena :whistle: ). I'll look forward to meeting you.

[David Bailey]

Hands up who's been on the edge of their seats waiting for the next installment?
:clap: Me, me!



I tried to stick just to the moves we'd learnt in the class (as I had last week, in case I didn't say?) and that went fairly well, maybe because I was only dancing with other people who had just done the class too.
I'd try to do some other moves as well - otherwise you can forget the ones you learnt last week (I know I do...). Also, the whole "writing the moves down" thing is important, I know, it's sad, but I think most guys do it...



Fortunately, almost all the partners I had all through the night were excellent back-leaders. :rolleyes:

It can really put you off someone. OK, I probably don't have the best lead in the world, and sometimes I don't know what I'm doing, but I'd rather mess up and get a puzzled look from my partner than be led into the next move.

Yuk... Having said that, I think you're right, many of them are probably only doing this because you're doing the routine. When you start to put some variation in, it probably won't be so much of a problem, as followers will have to follow your lead, rather than remember what they did in the class. I appreciate that this is a big step (you have to think of moves to do, and lead them, rather than going through the same moves you just learnt. Scary stuff....)

(By the way, this isn't meant to be critical, it sounds like you've got exactly the right attitude and approach)



I think she was about to tell me that people who move up too fast end up being knowledgeable, but poor dancers.

Hmmm, dunno, never really thought about it. I think that people who move up too fast will struggle with some classes, and may annoy their intermediate partners (!), but I dunno if this affects their dancing in the long run. Sounds plausible though...



Hands up who's still reading?
Still me :)

[Piglet]

Hands up who's still reading? :clap:
Hi Ducasi

enjoying reading your posts! You thought of writing a book - film script?? We'd all go and see it I'm sure (and offer to be extras - of course).

It's refreshing to hear someones thoughts on the process in such detail so keep posting...

Also I will apologise on behalf of all followers because I was guilty of leading moves (did I say was?? :rofl: ) but I really did think I was being helpful - know better now, but still need to practise my following skills at times. The men up here are too nice to point out that I'm doing it, so I've got to depend mostly on knowing I've done it - usually when the move hasn't gone to plan for the lead (that's my clue) and I quite like closing my eyes to ensure that I'm not hijacking!

Go for the workshop!!!! It will be brilliant fun - I did every single one that came along in Aberdeen except for the first one that accompanied the Beach Ballroom party in April last year, but I'd only been to a couple of classes at that point and didn't think I was ready to take that step. They are a very good investment!

Have a great day!
Pamela :flower:

[MartinHarper]

Fortunately, almost all the partners I had all through the night were excellent back-leaders. :rolleyes:

Yeah - why do women anticipate moves? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1978)

As you suggest, it'll get better as you stray away from doing the routine and into "proper" freestyle, and as you learn a wider variety of moves. As a follower, avoiding anticipation when you know what move is coming up is a lot harder than it sounds - intermediate level following, really, and not all the women will be there yet.

[Lory]

I've loved reading your weekly journal, long may it continue! AND just think, in a years time, you'll be able to look back and have a detailed history of how far you've come! And then in 3 years time, when you've become a teacher and won all manor of competitions, you can do what Piglet said and use your online diary to make a film! :clap: :clap: :clap:

On the point of backleading, I reckon I must have been the worst beginner backleader ever. :sick:

1. Maybe cos I'd had some previous dance experience therefore I found it quite easy to follow the instructions and picked up the moves quicker than then average lead.
2. I had NO concept of lead and follow, having never done any form of partner dance before.
3. I ignorantly THOUGHT I was helping :sad:
4. In my mind, as long as we got there in the end, it didn't really matter how... :really:

Obviously in hindsight, I now KNOW I was a nightmare! :tears:

I've said it before, IMO if there were some way that ONLY the LEADS could do the lessons, I think it would be better.

The beginner 'followers' shouldn't be allowed to look at the stage, in fact I think they should face the back at all times and just leave it up to the lead!

They should learn how to FOLLOW and NOT the MOVE!

I wonder if anyone's ever tried this???

[ducasi]

... enjoying reading your posts! You thought of writing a book - film script?? We'd all go and see it I'm sure (and offer to be extras - of course). Thanks for the kind words. :nice:

Although I might be good at putting my thoughts down on paper, and I've written an occasional poem, I'd really be no good at proper creative writing. I'd be really crap at dialogue and characterisation, for instance:


And I was like: "Hi, how are you?"
And she was like: "OK."
And I was like: "Great!"
And she was like: "How are you?"
And I sez: "No bad, bit tired, n' that."
And she was like: "Yeah, I know what you mean."
... ad nauseum ... Maybe I need a ghost writer... :confused:

I wonder who I'd like to play my part in the film... George Clooney probably... :wink:

We'd get Jennifer Lopez to do a cameo as the glamourous teacher, maybe Cameron Diaz to be the klutzy beginner who's always pursuing me for a dance. Um... have to think about who'd I put in the role of the taxi dancer.

Perhaps this is a subject for a new thread in another forum... :wink:

Anyway, while I'm sure my life at the moment may contain the gem of a great movie, I'm still working on the Hollywood ending. :tears:

Thanks everyone else for the support :flower: - I'll do another follow-up later.

Cheers guys! :cheers:

[David Bailey]

The beginner 'followers' shouldn't be allowed to look at the stage, in fact I think they should face the back at all times and just leave it up to the lead!
Interesting suggestion... Maybe they should all be blindfolded :)

[azande]

Interesting suggestion... Maybe they should all be blindfolded :)

:yeah: :yeah:

[Almost an Angel]

Interesting suggestion... Maybe they should all be blindfolded :)

Only if we can have different coloured sparkly ones that match our outfits!!! :D

Seriously though I have actually done this in a class (anyone who was at Boppin Bristol last year may remember) specifically used was to promote trust and gauge the ladies ability to follow :eek:

Teach the guys to lead a simple left and right side pass, and get the ladies to follow with their eyes closed. Once they are OK with following those get the guys to lead a block in the move so you are sure that the ladies are not just anticipating the move. It is possible to do more complicated moves like this however it does require a certain amount of trust. (or should that be bravery :wink: )

This also has the added bonus of teaching the guys to watch out for their follower as they are effectively blind and totally reliant upon the leader. As well as ensuring the guys are actually leading!! :rolleyes:

[David Bailey]

Seriously though I have actually done this in a class (anyone who was at Boppin Bristol last year may remember) specifically used was to promote trust and gauge the ladies ability to follow
Actually, that sounds very interesting - although possibly not for a beginner class :)

[Clive Long]

Interesting suggestion... Maybe they should all be blindfolded :)
Just an comment - and probably way off-topic , I'm tending to close my eyes when I'm learning the "basic" part of a ballroom move. I think it helps me feel the position of my body and my legs relative to my partner - and I resist the temptation of looking at her feet - even though the toe-crushing increases as a result :blush: .

Closing my eyes is probably irritating and discourteous to my partner and disastrous if attempted in "open dancing" (i.e. not just practicising the basic step) - but I feel it does help a little to secure the basic step.

Clive

[El Salsero Gringo]

Closing my eyes is probably irritating and discourteous to my partner and disastrous if attempted in "open dancing" (i.e. not just practicising the basic step) - but I feel it does help a little to secure the basic step.Closing your eyes is well known as one of the two Bugblatter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenous_Bugblatter_Beast_of_Traal#Ravenous_Bugbla tter_Beast_of_Traal) defenses against being asked to dance by partners with bouncy arms. The other one is to get your towel and wrap it round your head. That will disuade almost everyone.

[ducasi]

Hi,

After going to see Kylie last light (which was totally fantastic, thanks for asking :grin: ) I awoke again at the crack of dawn. I never had so much trouble sleeping before I started dancing!

Anyway, before I go back to my bed, just time for another quick reply!

David was amongst those that commented on my sticking to the routine we'd just learnt:

I'd try to do some other moves as well - otherwise you can forget the ones you learnt last week (I know I do...). Also, the whole "writing the moves down" thing is important, I know, it's sad, but I think most guys do it... Back in my third visit, when I ventured onto the dance floor for basically the first time, I didn't stick to the set routine. The results were explained back here (http://cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=110137&postcount=54).

Basically, the beginners were confused when I strayed from the set path, and I even had problems with the taxi dancer as she was expecting me to stick to the routine we'd been taught.

Forgetting moves is definitely a problem - as I sit here I can't even remember the whole of the first move! I haven't tried writing down the moves - I'm relying on my memory, this thread and all the great resources out on the web to help me. Not working out so great so-far.

I need to try harder to find a practice-partner.

<On the problems with back-leading followers...>

I like the idea of blindfolding the follower as a test of both my leading skills, and her following skills. I'd love to try this out. Might be a bit hazardous to do spins when you can't see though. :( Perhaps if they were to just close their eyes, but were allowed to open them at any time we're not in contact - that might work better. :nice:

I'm sure as I allow myself to dance with more intermediates (especially if they haven't just attended the beginner's class) things will get better.

And hopefully the workshop tomorrow will help a lot.

I wonder how I'll get on at the dance in Edinburgh tomorrow afterwards -- if I make it there.

One thing putting me off going to the dance is that I'm going to be beat after the workshop and I'll have 4-5 hours to kill, with no-where to go and relax. A friend suggested booking a hotel room and staying over, but it seems there's this thing called Easter which means all the hotels are all booked up! :confused: :eek: :tears:

Think I'll just go back to my bed now and maybe things will be better this afternoon. :wink:

[bobgadjet]

How can you be so partial and exclude the contributions made by Gus?

I am making a collection of his best

A sample of Gusisms from a randomly-selected post

chnace
dnacers
whoihc
probelm

:wink:

:rofl: :rofl:
OH NO NO NO

These are not misdakes, it's juts somebody using the smae keyboard as I've got

:rofl: :cheers:

[David Bailey]

Basically, the beginners were confused when I strayed from the set path, and I even had problems with the taxi dancer as she was expecting me to stick to the routine we'd been taught.
Hmmm, naughty taxi-dancer... :mad: Back-leading is evil, I remember anticipation being taught as one of the Deadly Sins Of Dancing (I think it was just below BO in the list :)). Maybe worth saying at the start, especially to beginners, that you're going to try freestyle, rather than the routine, but honestly, the word "freestyle" should be a bit of a giveaway... Really, if a taxi-dancer follower is back-leading, that's not helping you at all - unless you ask to be shown the routine, of course. Possibly I'm misunderstanding, and maybe the rules are different in the between-class freestyle to the after-class freestyle, but there's no excuse for a Taxi-Dancer to do this in a normal freestyle session.


Forgetting moves is definitely a problem - as I sit here I can't even remember the whole of the first move! I haven't tried writing down the moves - I'm relying on my memory, this thread and all the great resources out on the web to help me. Not working out so great so-far.

I wrote them down, I think most guys do, don't be ashamed, join us... :grin:

Hope the workshop goes well, keep on diary-ing! :clap:

[bobgadjet]

Well, this forum is as adictive as dance has now become with you.

If I hadn't have read the bit about you meeting with CJ, I would have thought this was a very clever thread trying to give a beginners insight, and encouragement, to dancing at a Ceroc venue, however, I will give you the benefit and again compliment you on one of the most encouraging and informative threads for a L O N G time.

I'm glad you are sticking with it, and are now dancing more than just in the lessons.
Having just read this.............


Basically, the beginners were confused when I strayed from the set path, and I even had problems with the taxi dancer as she was expecting me to stick to the routine we'd been taught.
:wink:

You've made it thru the first barrier, and now I see you classing yourself as something other than a beginner.

The only fear I have now is that you will class yourself as "too good for beginners". PLEASE, never do that.

Always remember this thread, as some years, nae months from now YOU will be showing a beginner how to do a certain move.

I feel a bit ashamed that I can't remember in such detail what I did just after breakfast today, let alone what I did last night, but your recollections of a nights dancing lesson lead to such detail of the moves, I still find it hard to believe you have not been planted here just to encourage beginners.

COME ON... OWN UP....WHO ARE YOU REALLY ?

If you are truly a beginner..... THANK YOU :worthy:
1/ for the interesting read
2/ for the fine descriptions of those moves I should really know
3/ for making this a good bible to point newcomers to (I hate the beginners description)
4/ for taking your time to make us aware of what it's like
5/ for reminding us what we all felt like on "our" first visits
6/ for your blow by blow recall of "the night before"

Good luck on the dancefloor, and if you ever get down to London, check out the many welcoming dancefloors down here.

:cheers:

Oh yes...... and welcome :cheers:

[ducasi]

Hmmm, naughty taxi-dancer... :mad: Back-leading is evil, I remember anticipation being taught as one of the Deadly Sins Of Dancing (I think it was just below BO in the list :)). {snip!} but there's no excuse for a Taxi-Dancer to do this in a normal freestyle session. Well I forgive her. She's helped me a lot. As a taxi dancer, dancing with clueless beginners (like I was when I started) all the time must make you into a bit of a back-leader. They need to back-lead to show some of the guys what they should be doing.

For example, doing the side-to-side thing the other day, I think the taxi dancer, and at least one other intermediate-beginner felt compelled to pull my hand further down during the arm-against arm bit to show me where I should have been. I don't have a problem with this. It's not quite anticipation, but it's certainly not me leading.

I wouldn't expect it during a proper dance, but it must be difficult to switch off.


Hope the workshop goes well, keep on diary-ing! Cheers!

[Chicklet]

I wonder how I'll get on at the dance in Edinburgh tomorrow afterwards -- if I make it there.
I remember my first Saturday night at Marcos very well indeed, it was a truly magical experience, please go if you possibly can, I honestly don't think you will regret it!!

C :grin:

[El Salsero Gringo]

For example, doing the side-to-side thing the other day, I think the taxi dancer, and at least one other intermediate-beginner felt compelled to pull my hand further down during the arm-against arm bit to show me where I should have been. I don't have a problem with this. It's not quite anticipation, but it's certainly not me leading.

I wouldn't expect it during a proper dance, but it must be difficult to switch off.

Cheers!When one is a beginner (as I am at lots of styles of dance) the experts - i.e. anyone who knows more than you - are very quick to correct what they see as faults in someone they recognise as a new person. So you can end up getting contradictory advice from several people all on the same night and all of it well-meant. Whereas those same aspects in someone not recognised as being new suddenly morph into 'style' and wouldn't attract any kind of comment. "Style is in the preconception of the beholder", you might say.

[ducasi]

Well, this forum is as adictive as dance has now become with you. Hey, I'm a long-time internet addict, and as a new dance addict, I can get a double dose here! :wink:

If I hadn't have read the bit about you meeting with CJ, I would have thought this was a very clever thread trying to give a beginners insight, and encouragement, to dancing at a Ceroc venue Besides CJ, I know of three other regular forumites who have witnessed me at this venue - two of whom I've danced with, one of whom may not have realised she was dancing with me. I also know a few people who go to the other Glasgow location.

I'm real, and I'm really a beginner - ask the poor woman whose toes I trod on on Wednesday if you don't believe me! :really:

however, I will give you the benefit and again compliment you on one of the most encouraging and informative threads for a L O N G time. Thanks, I'm glad you think it's encouraging - I'm not sure my first couple of posts alone would have that impression. Some way back in this thread, fkirk10 seemed discouraged by what I'd written. I wonder if she went to the class, and how she found it.

You've made it thru the first barrier, and now I see you classing yourself as something other than a beginner. Oh, I still definitely see myself as a beginner - just not a clueless beginner. I hope to go to a couple of beginner's workshops in the next few weeks. If I get through that, maybe I'll be ready to move on from beginner-dom by perhaps the end of April...


The only fear I have now is that you will class yourself as "too good for beginners". PLEASE, never do that.

Always remember this thread, as some years, nae months from now YOU will be showing a beginner how to do a certain move. Oh no, I love the hero-worship too much to avoid beginners. I think mentoring someone can be such a rewarding experience for both parties. I could see myself being a taxi dancer eventually.


I feel a bit ashamed that I can't remember in such detail what I did just after breakfast today, let alone what I did last night, but your recollections of a nights dancing lesson lead to such detail of the moves, I still find it hard to believe you have not been planted here just to encourage beginners. If you look carefully, I think you'll see I usually end up posting the same night as the class - while things are still fresh in my mind. My memory is just as bad as everyone else - like I said before, I can't even remember the first move!

My motivations for posting these are many-fold. Here's some of them:

To let Ceroc organisers know what the beginner's experience is like
To let others know what it's like, or to remind them.
To get encouragement and feedback from experienced dancers
To have a record of my experiences
To maybe encourage other people starting out


COME ON... OWN UP....WHO ARE YOU REALLY ?
OK, I give up, I'm actually Belle de Jour (http://belledejour-uk.blogspot.com/)! :really:

(Oops, I hope people realise I'm only joking (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1042250,00.html)! :wink: )

If you are truly a beginner..... THANK YOU :worthy:
1/ for the interesting read
2/ for the fine descriptions of those moves I should really know
3/ for making this a good bible to point newcomers to (I hate the beginners description)
4/ for taking your time to make us aware of what it's like
5/ for reminding us what we all felt like on "our" first visits
6/ for your blow by blow recall of "the night before" Gee, shucks! Thank you. :blush:

Good luck on the dancefloor, and if you ever get down to London, check out the many welcoming dancefloors down here.

:cheers:

Oh yes...... and welcome :cheers: Can't say I'm likely to be in London any time soon - haven't been there since... um... the 80's! But if I ever make it back again, I will try to meet up with as many of the London jivers as I can.

:cheers:

[Teamgoldie]

Hi Ducasi
Please allow yourself more often to dance with intermediate ladies. The better the female dancer the less likely she is to anticipate which move you are about to do, hopefully giving you the freedom to lead. And most of us will not mind at all (probably be flattered by being asked for a dance:-)

[Lynn]

My motivations for posting these are many-fold. Here's some of them...[SNIP]

To get encouragement and feedback from experienced dancers And you will get that on this forum. I started posting here when I had had only about 4 lessons. And the lessons here in NI stopped after about 6 months (and never restarted) so I have learnt a lot through this forum - from reading posts and dancing with forumites when I travel to England (haven't made it to Scotland yet!).

Next thing to think about, after you have recovered from your workshop - is to go on a weekender. My first weekender was Southport last year and it was a fab experience. Not only lots of workshops and dancing (and you can do as many or as few as you like) but you can meet other forumites, which is lovely! (There are still some places at Southport for June this year!)

[DavidY]

Forgetting moves is definitely a problem - as I sit here I can't even remember the whole of the first move! I haven't tried writing down the moves - I'm relying on my memory, this thread and all the great resources out on the web to help me. Not working out so great so-far.
I wrote them down, I think most guys do, don't be ashamed, join us... :grin: :yeah: There are some very good resources on the web, but when I'm at a venue, trying to remember a move in freestyle, I find nothing beats having moves written on good old-fashioned pieces of paper to refer to.

If I'm trying to remember a move, I'll quite often remember the start of it, get it wrong, then look at my notes before the next dance to see where I went wrong.

[David Bailey]

Well I forgive her. She's helped me a lot. As a taxi dancer, dancing with clueless beginners (like I was when I started) all the time must make you into a bit of a back-leader. They need to back-lead to show some of the guys what they should be doing.
Fair enough. It must be much more difficult to be a female taxi-dancer I think, I only had experience of it from the male POV, and it's easy for us - we're supposed to lead, after all, so it's just "do it well, do it clearly", and that's about it. Teaching as a follower is much more difficult, and it must be difficult to judge where to draw the line. You're a generous soul :)

[ducasi]

Hi,

I'm just back from a very tiring day at a workshop, then a dance in the evening.

I'm beginning to wonder if this dance stuff is for me. :sad:

I'm going to my bed right now. Maybe write some more tomorrow.

Bye, D.

[Chicklet]

PLEASE write some more today!!!

Can't speak to the workshop but there are plenty of people on the forum who were at the dance last night who would love to hear your impression....to see ourselves as others see us :devil: and would love to give you feedback, and maybe help by er explaining isn't quite the right word, but giving old(er)-hand context to anything that didn't appeal to you....as unfortunately it does sound as though you didn't enjoy it. :flower:

[TheTramp]

Well....

He wasn't actually at the dance for very long. I'm guessing that we arrived by about 9:30. And I asked someone from Glasgow if they knew who he was fairly soon after arriving. And they said that he'd already left by then.... :(

Was looking forward to meeting you too Ducasi....

[ducasi]

Hi Guys,

Well I suppose I owe you all a report on the workshop and dance last night. :nice:

I'm sure you're all wondering how it went, and I why I've been thinking of giving it all up. Well there's other stuff that's separate from the dancing which may be a factor, but my number one problem is that I think I'm a crap dancer, and I don't think any number of workshops or dances are going to help.

Before I go further, let me take you through the day...

It started very early - I woke up unbelievably early worried I would miss the train across to Edinburgh. It turned out I had plenty of time and actually had almost half an hour spare time before the workshop started. Maybe this was just as well as I had forgotten to bring the map to help me find Marco's! Turned out not to be a problem though, as I'd remembered enough to find it no-bother.

So the workshop consisted of a morning of learning moves, and an afternoon of learning how to put them together.

Let's see how many moves I can remember... Um...


first move
ceroc spin
yo-yo
octopus
basket
arm-jive
man spin
comb
shoulder slide
arm-jive push-spin
in and out (travelling return)

Wow, I think I've done it! Haven't quite got them in the right order, mind!

Now if you look at that list, and you scan back through my posts above, you'll see that only one of these moves was new to me - the comb. As such, I'm not sure just how much I got out of the morning's lessons.

It's funny how in a class of six guys and eight girls, every guy gets to know all the girls, and all the girls get to know all the guys, but the guys don't get to know each other much, and I don't suppose the girls do either.

The girls' experience varying considerably, but I don't think any were total absolute beginners. At least two of the guys were though, and many of the others still had much less experience than my five continuous weeks of classes. One guy said he'd been dancing for a year and a half, had stopped, and was now restarting it and thought he needed a refresher course. :what:

Because I basically knew almost all the moves already I was pretty confident about what I was doing most of the time, though I still managed to screw up now and then, especially as we started putting moves together - it's easy to forget what you're doing with so much going on in your head.

Anyway, a few of the girls commented on how good I was, or how confident I was, one picking out me and the guy with a year and half's experience as the two good dancers (relatively speaking) in the class. Another couldn't believe I was just a beginner with only five classes under my belt. I was naturally flattered. :blush:

It was a bit like the last revision class I had back on Wednesday, where I felt able sometimes to help the girl I was dancing with, for example, telling her to use a looser grip, or pulling her up for trying to lead, and I think that was generally appreciated.

The in and out was the last move we did, and the teacher showed us an alternative way to finish the move before going into the return by putting the girl's hands on your chest and then "flicking" her off. Didn't really get this to work. :sad:

In the afternoon we learnt how to put these moves together in different ways. We called out moves (me more than anybody!) and the teacher would show us how to work them together.

This was pretty straight-forward again. For me, once I know what moves I'm doing, and just so long as I can remember what I'm doing, it's not a big problem. We had a couple of exercises, where we had to make up mini routines and demonstrate them.

In the first one we were first split into two large groups, a leader was then chosen (yep, me!) and they had to decide on a routine, make sure everyone knew it, and then lead the group in the demo. That went very smoothly. I think we did a first move, into an octopus into an arm-jive. Something like that - fairly straight-forward. That said, I did manage to mess up during our demo by forgetting what we were doing maybe by the third time round. I managed to get it back together, but it was a bad mistake to make when the rest of "my" team seemed to manage OK. :blush:

The second one was just in a pair, where again we had to put "two or three" moves together. This time my partner wasn't so confident and so we found it hard to get a simple routine that we would both feel comfortable with. And so this turned into another mini disaster as things went bad while we demo-ed our moves. :eek:

Shortly after the this we did just what we've been talking about in earlier posts, where we had a different girl and then had to lead her through the moves we've just made up while she kept her eyes closed. I think this went really well for me and my partner at the time - the only problem was that as my routine started with an arm-jive, when I offered my right hand at the first step back, she didn't see it to grab on! So instead I stuck another move in front which allowed me to guide her hand into mine. I even managed to vary things a little to keep the girl guessing. :wink:

So-far, so-good. And in fact, that was pretty much it. The workshop was really good, the teacher was great, his demo was fab. It was a lot of fun. :nice: But I'm not really sure how much I got out of it really. :sad:

I learnt the comb. I learnt I could lead a girl with her eyes closed. I learnt that you can't put an extra return onto the end of an octopus. :grin:

The main thing I learnt was that I have big problems remembering dance routines - that when I get into a a long sequence of moves, even when they are pre-planned and rehearsed, my mind just goes blank and I'm left with not a clue what I'm doing, and with no-where to go.

So that was the workshop. But I hadn't stop learning...

I killed some time afterwards feeling a bit sorry for myself and for Northern Ireland as I watched the end of their 4-0 defeat to that other country over a pint, then I went to watch "Miss Congeniality 2", which isn't actually a bad film, though don't expect to see it up for any Oscars next year. :grin:

And so, feeling somewhat refreshed, I headed back for the party. I got there relatively early, about quarter past 8, but I wanted to make sure I was there for the beginner's class at the start of the dance.

Before the class started I tried doing a bit of dancing with this really nice, and really pretty girl I met when I arrived. This is where I learnt my next big lesson - I learnt that it's an even bigger problem when your mind goes blank if you don't have a sequence pre-planned and you have to continually think of things to do next. Especially when you're dancing with someone that you might want to impress a bit, and there's not many people there and so you feel self-conscious. I just can't do this.

Saved by the beginner's class!

We did three moves of diminishing complexity. First was a basket - except was it a walking or a travelling basket, or something like that? Basically, you'd wrap the lady, unwrap her and walk forward and wrap her to the left, then back again wrapping her back to the right. It was finished by, I think, some sort of spin. Then into a first move, but on the way out there was a block and spin - this didn't work well when the girl still had her hand on my shoulder on the way out - no arm to block! The routine finished with a man spin. Nae bother at all.

The extended basket was difficult - lots of complicated arm movements! By the time I'd got through it all I was usually a beat or two behind the teacher! :eek: Didn't help dancing with a lady with a huge skirt which slowed me down during all the turning. :rolleyes:

Afterwards, I danced with a few people whom I'd met during the class, and I could just about manage the routine given, but things would go bad as soon as I varied from it.

Here's what would happen...


I'm in a left-to-right hold ... what do I do?? ... let's try a first move!
hmmm, still in a left-to-right hold without a clue - let's try a side-to-side!
still left-to-right ... now what?? ... how about another first move!
wow, how did I get this right-to-right hold?? hmmm... I know! A yo-yo!
back to left-to-right ... anyone for a first move???!!
Um, now what was that other move that I did so well this morning?!?!?

Repeat ad-nauseam. Occasionally I'd manage to get into a arm-jive, or an octopus if I'd somehow managed to get hold of another hand. That was usually as a result of the girl saying "let's do an arm jive!"

It's either going to be a pretty boring or tedious dance for the girl (and I can tell you, it certainly is for was was me) or it's just going to be yet another disaster on the dance-floor. Bad either way.

So I felt pretty crap. I was now physically, emotionally and mentally exhausted. And I can't dance.

It's not about the dance night and it's not about the people who were there - though I felt pretty intimidated by how good they all looked. It's not something that needs to be different about the dances, it's not anything in the culture of Ceroc. (Though the obligation to accept every offer of a dance kept me hidden in a corner a lot.)

I left early (about quarter to 10) to get my train home even while people were still arriving. If she's reading, I want to say sorry to the girl I promised a dance to before I left - I couldn't find you and I didn't want to miss my train. Sorry. :flower:

"Hi!" to the other people I met there, and "Hi!" to the people I might have seen there but didn't meet. Sorry I missed you. :flower:

And that's all there is to say about the workshop and dance.

I don't know if my problem is panic or choking. Here's a couple of great articles to read on the subject of panic and choking and what the difference is:

The Art of Failure (http://www.gaelicgazette.com/artoffailure.htm)

Panic! How it Works and What To Do About It (http://www.asktog.com/columns/066Panic!.html)

When I mess-up mid-move, like I forget which way I'm going in an octopus, I think that's choking - I instinctively know what I should be doing, but my conscious mind doesn't and has tried to take over. When I mess up going between moves, I think that's simple panic - as the first article says "I searched my mind for what I could do. And nothing came to mind." Fortunately, dancing isn't as high-risk as scuba diving or piloting. :grin:

I don't know how to get beyond this. I've never been one for thinking on my feet (please excuse the pun :na: ), preferring to stop and think things through. I don't think I can change.

How would you feel? :confused: What would you do? :confused:

I think I might need some time away from dancing to figure these things out. :tears:

My head is mush. :sick: :confused: :sad:

[David Bailey]

I'm beginning to wonder if this dance stuff is for me. :sad:
I suspect it's too late, you're hooked. Join us, resistance is... Oh, you know the rest :)
Workshops are tough - 4 hours of solid dancing and thinking about dancing will do you in, no doubt about it. Doing an evening dance after that shows more energy than I'd ever have, it's no wonder you're tired and emotional. Keep at it though, and I bet you'll see a difference next time you're freestyling - it can take a few days / weeks to sink in. If you have the energy, try to write down for yourself a Things To Remember / Practice list for next time, it may help.

[Rhythm King]

1. Don't get stressed - it's only dancing!
2. Don't give up, keep coming and it will become easier, as muscle memory kicks in, and moves you currently have to think about doing, will just happen.
3. You're nowhere near as crap as you think you are, and any such pressure is largely self-induced. It takes different people different amounts of time to learn things.
4. The fact that you think about what you're doing, read and contribute to this forum and take workshops shows that you are trying to improve on your standards. This is far in advance of a lot of dancers who think they're intermediate, or even advanced!

Relax and give it a fair crack of the whip. Franck has recently said that the beginners' cycle has been changed to 12 weeks, from 6. You've barely started your jive journey!!

R-K

[ducasi]

One thing I noticed...

At the workshop, most of the girls had dance shoes - and these are just beginners! Maybe it's just "any excuse..."

I was the only guy wearing trainers.

At the dance, I only saw one other guy wearing trainers, but he looked like quite a good dancer, though he seemed to be limiting himself to fairly simple moves.

Don't know what any of this means, just thought I would report it.

[azande]

~snip~

OMG!!!!
I just revived my first three months of Ceroc reading this!
The only thing I can suggest is to stick to it. Five classes are not nearly enough. Things started to click in my head after three months of trial and error, I just had the luck of finding a couple of ladies that kept asking me to dance and one of them (you know who you are! :kiss: ) started telling me that I had to surprise her every forthnight with something new, it really didn't matter that most of the time I would forget the new move after the dance with her.....sometimes, just sometimes I would remember that move.

And yes, I used to bore myself to death repeating the same moves, but look at it this way: girls dance one or two songs with you (well... sometimes a bit more maybe :wink: ) and then they dance with someone else that knows different moves.

Don't know how useful this post is.... but don't give up just yet, and anyway, after two years I still get intimidated by a few people!

[Lory]

Hi Ducasi :)

If it's any consolation, I can clearly remember quite early on, thinking, 'I've got this thing nailed', then on about my 4th or 5th lesson, coming back to earth with a giant thud, when it all seemed to fall apart again! :sick:

I'm kicking my self now, as when I first responded to your initial post, I actually thought about warning you there might be a few large dips in your progress line but I thought better of it as it might have read as a negative post. I wish I'd written it now, so I could refer back to it, to reasure you that its just a small blip and next week or the week after, you'll find it all clicking onto place again. :clap:

I think you just had a wee touch of overload. :hug:

[MartinHarper]

Ever heard the saying "don't think of a pink elephant"? The idea is that it's impossible to follow that instruction consciously, because you can't rid yourself of a thought, only start thinking about something else.

It works the same in modern jive. I once did a class where the instructor asked us to do some freestyle, except that we weren't allowed to use the first move. I'd been dancing about six months at the time, but it was really tough, because suddenly the only move I could remember was the one I wasn't allowed to use - ick!

If you're always thinking "I've just done a first move, I mustn't do another first move", or "I've done lots of yo-yos this dance, I mustn't do any more", then you're more likely to go blank. It's ok to do two or three (or five or six) first moves, while you think of something else to do. When you think of another move, you can do it, and then come back to the first move. You might find that this gives you the thinking time you're after.

[Piglet]

Wow Ducasi!

Great read again! And although you sound down with yourself at times, your post had quite a few positives in it - so please don't give up yet!

I've only ever tried to lead in a workshop where we were swapping places and I'm much happier just now being a follower so can't give you much advice on the lead role - other than maybe have 3 simple moves up your sleeve that you can always go back to and do over and over until you can work out what you want to do next -
e.g. a left handed move - maybe yo-yo,
a right handed move - I love both the shoulder slide and the man spin and always have and I remember at one of my workshops Lorna or Lisa (or maybe both at different workshops) advised using those as "filler" moves
and a double handed one - I reckon I'd use the cheesy in and out a lot if and when I ever try to lead!

Hopefully you will believe me when I say that I love dancing with guys who are learning the basic moves - of course its nice to dance with guys who can do trickier moves, but beginners are a refreshing change! Believe it!

And to add to that point - I know of at least 3 guys in Aberdeen who think they are boring dancers because they feel that they are always doing the same move over and over over. The thing is - as a follower you don't really notice that, especially not in one dance. So it isn't boring for the ladies - might be if you stuck to one girl all night, but as long as you're changing, not only are you exercising your lead (as we all probably follow in slightly different ways from the very experienced to the not-so experienced and all those inbetween) but you're keeping all us ladies smiling.

You will improve - just give yourself time! And remember to laugh when things go wrong. It happens to us all :flower:

You ever fancy coming up to Aberdeen then let me know and I'll look out for you!

Pamela :hug:

[Piglet]

Just to add to my last post!

I love dancing with all 3 guys who think they are boring.

And I wouldn't have thought that about them at all!

Thought I didn't really get that point across very well last time :)

[Gadget]

... my number one problem is that I think I'm a crap dancer,...
Never mind where you are just now: that will change and improve. Where do you want to be? What do you consider to be your goal that will make you think "I'm not a crap dancer"?
If you can find these targets, then you can find ways to meet them.

There are times that I think "I am a crap dancer". (normally after doing something inconsiderate or losing my balance :blush: ) but for me, it spurs me on to look for ways to eliminate the things that I consider make me a bad dancer.

I hope you do continue - even if you take time out :D It really is good fun when you can get passed the pressures of trying to remember moves and give your lady a good dance.
{and for some of the most interesting posts on here for a long time :wink:}

[Lynn]

One thing I noticed...

At the workshop, most of the girls had dance shoes - and these are just beginners! Maybe it's just "any excuse..."

I was the only guy wearing trainers. Yeah, any excuse... Actually I was dancing over 6 months before I bought my first pair of dance shoes (made up for that in the next 6 months though!). I did actually find wearing dance shoes made it easier to dance, especially when it came to spinning, but it doesn't make you a better dancer, so wear whatever is comfortable.

Like Lory, I hit some difficult parts when starting out... two stick in my mind - learning the catapult (kept spinning in the wrong place and crashing into my partner!) and getting to the 'wanting to learn to dance rather than learning moves' stage (about week 6). And the more you learn, the more you realise there is to learn...

Always remember two things - as said before, if you only have one or two dances with someone, we don't mind if you do the same few moves as we will have just done different moves with the last person we danced with. And us girls love dancing with an enthusiastic dancer who is enjoying himself even if getting moves wrong! (In fact its better than dancing with someone executing perfect moves, but looking bored!)

[El Salsero Gringo]

So I felt pretty crap. I was now physically, emotionally and mentally exhausted. And I can't dance.Five lessons and a workshop, and the man expects to be perfect!

Hey, Ducasi, cut yourself a little slack. It's absolutely OK to be not-very-good when you start out a new skill. (Heck, a lot of people make a lifetime's speciality out of it.)

You're not learning to dance so that you'll start to enjoy it when you make 'expert' - you're learning to dance because you enjoy learning to dance. Have fun along the way and give yourself permission to balls up just as much and as often as you feel in the mood.

You know that old saying about how it's better to travel hopefully than to arrive? Time to start making the most of the journey because you'll arrive soon enough.

And thanks for the links to those articles - very useful.

[Magic Hans]

...
I'm beginning to wonder if this dance stuff is for me. :sad: ...

When things go wrong as they sometimes will
When the road you're trudging seems all uphill
When the funds are low and the debts are high
And you want to smile, but you have to sigh
When care is pressing you down a bit
Rest if you must, but don't you quit

For success is a failure turned inside out
The silver tints on the clouds of doubt
You never can tell how close you are
You may be near when you seem a far
But stick to the fight when you're hardest hit
'Cos it's when things go wrong
that you MUST NOT QUIT!

[anonymous]

I remember at maths class in school being flumoxed by vectors. Then coming back to them next year, they seems so much clearer, but still a little confusing. It was only after the 3rd or 4th revisit that I really got my head round them!! It's peculiar, and doesn't really make much sense ... but sometimes learning new stuff seems to happen that way .... at least to me, anyway!!!

Quick question and subject change: changing (up) gear when driving a car: what is the first action? Clutch? Wrong! That'll simply allow the engine to rev. Yet (generally) only drivers that have recently learned to drive know (consciously) that lifting off the accelator is the first action (if only marginally).

What's my point? Experienced drivers don't know how to drive? Well kind of! It is about muscle memory. Clearly experienced drivers know how to drive, only much of that learning has become embedded or hardwired. It no longer conscious.

As far as I can tell, this is the same for any manner of physical learning that incorporates some manner of repeated pattern. Even if those patterns vary. Point being, as a learning lead dancer (eg man), once some of what I have learned has become embedded in muscle memory, dancing becomes that much easier.

As a taxi, whenever I remember, I'll suggest to blokes (who inevitably have a steep initial learning curve) to set the following initial target:

Learn a simply 4 move routine, to the point at which that routine is embedded in muscle memory, ie it can be performed with anyone to any music at any time or place without any conscious, mental processing. I'd imagine it'd take a good 2/3 months dancing once a week.

Once achieved it will be, I believe, a skill that can never be unlearned ... like cycling, swimming or changing gear!!

Hope this helps!

Ian

[bigdjiver]

There was no way I could dance and think about each move. I had top keep practicing until it sunk into "muscle" memory, and was as natural as walking. This means I still go astray in beginners classes. "Man spin" - catch right - the teacher can say otherwise, but my muscles "know". I remember making little models with pegs and string trying to work out the Octupus.

This is a good reason for getting your technique as good as possible whilst learning. It will stick with you. If your dance brain is as limited as mine, then just concentrate on enjoying yourself. You may not realise how far you have come until you lumber through a dance in front of some non-dancers, perhaps even with a partner that has never done it before, and find them all looking at you in awe.

[ducasi]

Hi folks,

Well I think I've decided to stick at it. Saturday was really tough on me but I'm bouncing back and I reckon I'll be up for the class by Wednesday.

Thanks for all your encouraging words - it's nice to know other people have gone through similar things and made it through.

The thing is I'm exceedingly impatient and a total perfectionist. There's not many things I like doing unless I'm either good at them, or at least can pretend to myself that I'm good. :wink:

Ceroc dancing is the only thing I can remember learning which has been so difficult, but that has been fun enough for me to want to keep going.

I don't think it's much about improving my muscle memory, as when I'm just doing pretty much any move that I've properly learnt, it comes pretty much automatically. Maybe not perfect every time, and probably lacking a lot in style, but usually pretty good without too much thought. (This is maybe why other beginners have been so impressed.)

It's only when I stop and think does it go wrong. I can do an octopus with my eyes closed; baskets in my sleep; yo-yos to any beat you throw at me. (OK, maybe a little exaggeration there!) But occasionally I'll "choke" when I allow my conscious mind to go "hey, are you sure about that??!?!" and then suddenly I'm not sure about where I'm going. This doesn't happen too often though. Once I start a move I can usually finish it.

But please don't ask me to put them together - that's when I have to start thinking, and thus stop dancing! And that's simple "panic" - it's not that my conscious mind has taken over and things have gone wrong, it's that the conscious mind has been asked "OK, what's next?" and not had an answer to give.

The advice I keep hearing is to work on a simple sequence of moves - make them mine, make them part of me. Once I've got that, I can extend them, maybe work on another sequence, join the two together... and before you know it, I've got a routine that just goes on and on...

But isn't that (in some sense) cheating? That's not freestyle, it's not working with the music, it's not adapting to my partner, and I'll still not be able to dance with the same girl too often or else she might figure out my secret! (And then of course I'd have to kill her... :wink: )

OK, OK, I know - I've only been at it a short while, I need to give myself more time. I am so impatient!!!

I also need a dance partner I can practice with. Not had any offers yet from round these parts... Maybe I'll have to start asking some of the people that go to the class on Wednesdays. That's going to be tough.

One last thing... A rather ironic thing happened on Saturday night... When I got home from the dance, feeling like I never want to see another first move in my life, can you guess what was waiting for me on my door mat?

That's right! Ceroc's "Modern Jive for Beginner's" DVD! Just in time for me to want to throw it out the window! I'll save my review of it to another posting, or perhaps there's another thread where it would be more appropriate.

Oh, and just another last wee thing - analogies based on driving or swimming don't help me, as I'm not especially able to do either!

Cheers guys, I would have quit a long time ago if it wasn't for your support and encouragement. :flower: :hug:

[Graham]

I wonder who I'd like to play my part in the film... George Clooney probably... :wink:
You still haven't introduced yourself but I know who you are (not because of your likeness to George Clooney I'm forced to say :wink: ) I was keeping George on standby to play me in case Tom Cruise wasn't available.....

[Chicklet]

I was keeping George on standby to play me in case Tom Cruise wasn't available.....
this is Tom Cruise after he's been on the rack, obviously. :what: :drool:

[ducasi]

You still haven't introduced yourself but I know who you are (not because of your likeness to George Clooney I'm forced to say :wink: ) I was keeping George on standby to play me in case Tom Cruise wasn't available..... Yep, sorry Graham, I saw you on Saturday early on - in fact, I think I was standing next to you at one point, but something else was going on (was the class about to start??) Then when I turned to look for you, you had disappeared!

Of course, I've seen you on the Wednesday nights too. I promise I'll introduce myself if you're there this week. :blush:

When did you work out who I was? There's been lots of clues! (And not just the George Clooney one! :wink: )

Cheers!

[Graham]

Well I think I've decided to stick at it. Saturday was really tough on me but I'm bouncing back and I reckon I'll be up for the class by Wednesday.
I'm really pleased to hear it! I'm taxiing again on Wednesday so will see you there.

Just to echo comments which others have already made - what you're going through is the same as most of us did. It's incredibly frustrating to try and do freestyle and freeze or make a mistake halfway through the track. It must have been several months before I was really confident about being able to make it through an entire track! When I started we didn't have a revision class so I used to come for the beginner's class, stay for three or four freestyle tracks and then go home. My first visit to a party at Marcos I found incredibly intimidating - I would have left about 9:30 if it hadn't been for the fact that I was with my wife who was having a great time.

[Graham]

this is Tom Cruise after he's been on the rack, obviously. :what: :drool:
No need - amazing what they can do with digital special effects these days......

[Wendy]

Have just read every post on this thread (it took a while !!) MAGIC !!!!

(Thanks Chicklet for telling me about it :flower: )

Keep going wee chum !!!! Scotland needs you !!!!!

I'm a Taxi on a Tuesday in Glasgow and probably can't compete with your Wednesday girl :tears: but I'd made you very welcome and as a special treat I'd even follow and that only happens about twice a year !!!!

Wxxx

[Wendy]

Oh and don't worry about that freezing thing.. just time it so it matches a break in the music and it'll look like you have great musical interpretation :rofl:

Wx

[Chicklet]

Hi folks,

Well I think I've decided to stick at it. Saturday was really tough on me but I'm bouncing back and I reckon I'll be up for the class by Wednesday.

excellent, think I might come out of weekday hermitage and come along too, I'll be the one with Wendy trying to make eye contact with Graham as he tries to point you out without pointing etc and looking more like John Cleese than Tom Cruise in the process :devil:

You've heard a lot from guys saying they have all been through what you're experiencing so here's another word from the girls' side - you have no idea how DELIGHTED we are when a new guy shows up with as much enthusiasm as you have shown already, we do not expect you to get it overnight, we REALLY look forward to seeing how you progress and most of all watching someone else get into it like the hardcore nutters :rofl: on here.

It won't just be Wendy ITCHING to backlead you :blush: :whistle: but I will do my very very best not to, just please don't get upset if a little one sneaks in, it won't be on purpose :innocent:

Hope to see you there!
C

Hope to see you there

[ducasi]

I'm a Taxi on a Tuesday in Glasgow and probably can't compete with your Wednesday girl :tears: but I'd made you very welcome and as a special treat I'd even follow and that only happens about twice a year !!!! Hi Wendy!

Do you ever make it to the Wednesday night? Because I've been told that I've danced with you. :wink:

Is it true? Do you remember? Can you find yourself in my story? And who's going to play you in the film? :grin:

:cheers:

[Piglet]

I'll still not be able to dance with the same girl too often or else she might figure out my secret! (And then of course I'd have to kill her... :wink: )


Thanks for the giggles - like your sense of humour! Bet you're fun to dance with.




can you guess what was waiting for me on my door mat?

That's right! Ceroc's "Modern Jive for Beginner's" DVD! Just in time for me to want to throw it out the window!


Liked this one too - split the quotes up because I'm practising embedding 2 quotes (cross fingers it's worked).

And to add...

There's no such thing as a mistake in ceroc - it's just a new move!

:flower: :hug: :flower:

[Wendy]

Hi Wendy!
Do you ever make it to the Wednesday night? Because I've been told that I've danced with you. :wink:
Is it true? Do you remember? Can you find yourself in my story? And who's going to play you in the film? :grin:
:cheers:emm ...er... well ..maybe.. :blush: not that you didn't leave a great impression, I'm sure .. just that I love all the beginners just the same.... :innocent:

I'll definitely be there this Weds, so please ask for a dance... and I'll tell you a few tricks on how to deal with women who backlead..well only if you tell me who you are...

I know the lovely Jennifer Lopez would play me in your film.. or maybe Bette Middler would give a more accurate portrayal... :tears:

Wxxx

[ducasi]

so please ask for a dance...
Bet you're fun to dance with.
Hope to see you there! OK ladies, form an orderly line please! :wink:

Seriously, I'm feeling intimidated enough, I hope you won't be disappointed if I choose to dance mainly with fellow beginners and people I don't know, and thus won't have to worry so much about their perceptions. :(

And if I just want to hide, please let me. :blush:

[El Salsero Gringo]

OK ladies, form an orderly line please! :wink:

Seriously, I'm feeling intimidated enough, I hope you won't be disappointed if I choose to dance mainly with fellow beginners and people I don't know, and thus won't have to worry so much about their perceptions. :(

And if I just want to hide, please let me. :blush:
Well said.

Ladies, please give this man a little space to develop some style and confidence and then allow him to come and find you for a dance - when *he* feels that, even if not your equal, then at least that he has something to contribute to the experience.

Maybe it's a "guy" thing, but I totally understand.

[bobgadjet]

Well Ducasi, you've kept me up to the wee small hours again with your fantastic reviews.
I would have used a quote, but didn't know which would have been more appropriate.....maybe the one saying you were going to keep at it, at least for now.

YOU ARE HOOKED THEN.....OMG...... in about two weeks you might need some therapy :rofl:

Now some little advice........

Forget trying to move on to some more complicated moves.
It is OK to do the same four moves over and over again thru a dance, but vary when you do them, and just LISTEN a bit more to the music as you dance.

If you get stuck, get your lady into a basket and just step forward and backward in time with the music so that you have her by your side, and strike up a conversation....I mean it....especially if you are trying to think of a new move to do.....take a rest....back and forth......ask her how SHE thinks you are doing.

If you think she is more experienced ask HER how she thinks you are progressing.

Take the time to BOAST about being a beginner, but not letting on you've been to a workshop.

Once you've been a few more weeks you can still boast about being a beginner, and then you will get the compliments about being GREAT for a mere beginner. Ego boost or what ? ? ? :innocent:

I reckon I must have hit a period at the place I learned first off, when there must have been some really lousy guys, as when I did get really into modern jive I started using some moves I had taken from west coast swing (which I started before MJ).

After about 7 or 8 weeks I was trying to get off the dancefloor one night, for a rest, when I was grabbed by yet another lady who said "Oh not you don't I've been waiting in line for this dance and we are going to have it NOW."

When I asked her about the waiting in line bit she told me that there was a queue of ladies waiting to dance with me. WOW, did that boost the ego ? YOU BET IT DID. :whistle:

So, about now you must try to listen to the music. I know, just another thing to have to think about, but it is just as important as knowing the moves, and in some cases more so.

Get listening mate, as some tunes have their own little parts that, if timed just right to a certain move, will make YOUR dance routine stick out from just another guy, and the ladies will queue up to dance with YOU.

Mind you, after reading your recent epics, and the replies, I think you will need your dance card sooner than later :D

Keep at it, and keep there posts coming also as I have pointed a few new guys to this thread already.

:cheers:

[bigdjiver]

The guys who have been doing it for years can often be seen just swaying on the dancfloor, into the music with partner. You do not have to go anywhere if you are already there.

[Chicklet]

Well said.

Ladies, please give this man a little space to develop some style and confidence and then allow him to come and find you for a dance - when *he* feels that, even if not your equal, then at least that he has something to contribute to the experience.

Maybe it's a "guy" thing, but I totally understand.

sweet baby Jesus and the orphans :what:
damned if we do, damned if we don't :confused: :confused:

we are offering help, in whatever way the young man would like to take it.

telling us to back off hardly squares with wanting a partner....in another thread...where it is stated that the class isn't providing enough practice time for working things through....all we're doing here is suggesting that there ARE people out there who will spend some time in "practice" mode, if asked.

[CJ]

I know the lovely Jennifer Lopez would play me in your film.. or maybe Bette Middler would give a more accurate portrayal... :tears:

Wxxx

Who said "Ruby Wax?????!?!?!??!?"

:whistle:

[El Salsero Gringo]

sweet baby Jesus and the orphans :what:
damned if we do, damned if we don't :confused: :confused:

we are offering help, in whatever way the young man would like to take it.

telling us to back off hardly squares with wanting a partner....in another thread...where it is stated that the class isn't providing enough practice time for working things through....all we're doing here is suggesting that there ARE people out there who will spend some time in "practice" mode, if asked.

Well, he was the one who said he was feeling intimdated. Sometimes a whole crowd of people pushing to help isn't the best thing.

By the way, who are the orphans?

[Chicklet]

By the way, who are the orphans?
I do believe that this is one of the great unanswered cultural questions of our time, but they might be from Chorley.

[ducasi]

sweet baby Jesus and the orphans :what:
damned if we do, damned if we don't :confused: :confused:

we are offering help, in whatever way the young man would like to take it. Sorry Chicklet, I really do appreciate the offer of help. :flower:


telling us to back off hardly squares with wanting a partner....in another thread...where it is stated that the class isn't providing enough practice time for working things through....all we're doing here is suggesting that there ARE people out there who will spend some time in "practice" mode, if asked. The thing is, I want a partner who is still at around the same level as me, so I can feel that I'm making a contribution too.

I don't think that class nights (during freestyle) is the best time to help me either. It's not whether there's enough practice time at the classes or not - it's after the class, a few days later that I would want to practice, to see if things are sinking in, and if not, to do something about it. And also to work on putting moves together knowing I have an understanding partner, and no audience. These practice sessions could go on for as much as an hour, maybe more.

That would require a level of commitment that's difficult to ask of anybody, much less somebody with not much to gain.

But I should probably be writing this in the other thread at the moment...

Bottom line... I appreciate the offers of help from everybody, but dancing with non-beginners is too intimidating for me at the moment, especially as I will feel that I have something to live up to with the people on the forum.

Sorry, it's just the way I am. :blush:

When I'm ready I will come and ask you to dance, or ask for help. I will be very grateful for any help you can then give. :worthy:

Thanks for all your support. :cheers:

[bobgadjet]

a few days later that I would want to practice, to see if things are sinking in, and if not, to do something about it. And also to work on putting moves together knowing I have an understanding partner, and no audience. These practice sessions could go on for as much as an hour, maybe more.


OH DEAR.....here it comes........ a second night of dance needed

YOU ARE HOOKED, and being reeled in by the need for MORE DANCE

Your last post seemed to have a bit of despondancy thrown in.

DON'T DISPAIR, we have all been there matey, and you are on the way up thru all the pain we have been thru in our past.

It will go away the more you can practice, as you say, BUT, and I feel this is the BIG BUT........

Don't think you are going to get better quickly by dancing with somebody on the same level as you. It don't work that way.

The problem you may get then is that you practice, and you are both wondering why it's all coming together when YOU TWO dance together, but don't work when you dance with somebody else.

The fact is that if you stay with another beginner, and neither of you remember the moves as THEY SHOULD be done then you actually get by, by doing YOUR OWN VARIATIONS.
Now, that's not all bad when you know what you are doing, but it's a road to disaster when you are learning, as you will be learning each others mistakes.

It's time to bite the bullet and wade in at the deep end with the BEST DANCERS YOU CAN FIND. If you get something wrong, THEY WILL SHOW YOU how it's supposed to be done.

Get stuck in there and find another night you can go. It will speed up your learning curve about the same pace as doing another workshop.

Good luck and keep us posted :cheers:

[Clive Long]

By the way, who are the orphans?

I do believe that this is one of the great unanswered cultural questions of our time, but they might be from Chorley.
I am told their latest electro-acid album, "Du bist mein Gesundheit" was especially good. Very popular on Scottish play-lists at a sprightly 297 bpm.

[Wendy]

Who said "Ruby Wax?????!?!?!??!?"

:whistle: Perfect !!!! And would anyone turn down the chance to dance with her ????? oh.. yeah.. ok .. right.. yeah.. I see what you mean.... :sick:

My "please ask for a dance" was not offered in a Ruby Wax kind of way Ducasi wee chum... I am really nice to beginners :flower: .. it's only when guys get really good that I start to arm-wrestle with them in the middle of a move.. honest !!!!!!!

No pressure.... I won't ask you for a dance unless I'm in Taxi mode cos that's what I'm meant to do !!! And since I don't even know who you are then how can I know you are someone who doesn't want to be asked ????... Chicklet was SOOO right.. "damned if we do and damned if we don't"....

If I can be of any help then please ask... :cheers:

Wxxx

[ducasi]

No pressure.... Sorry, this has been blown out of all proportions. :sad:

My previous dance with you (which may just have been my first real non-class dance :flower: ) wasn't the most horrendous experience of my life. :wink:

Cheers Wendy, I will say "Hi!" on Wednesday. :nice:

[Wendy]

Cheers Wendy, I will say "Hi!" on Wednesday. :nice:Look forward to it !!!! And I won't give your secret identity away... well Chicklet might find a way to get it out of me... so just introduce yourself to her as well and save me the horror of the torture I'd have to go through !!!!

Wxxx

[ducasi]

... I won't give your secret identity away... well Chicklet might find a way to get it out of me... so just introduce yourself to her as well and save me the horror of the torture I'd have to go through !!!! The key difference here is that so-far I've had the advantage of know who I'm looking for in order to introduce myself. Chicklet is currently a mystery to me. :confused:

At least I'll know what to watch for...

I'll be the one with Wendy trying to make eye contact with Graham as he tries to point you out without pointing etc :wink:

[Wendy]

Spose I could point her out to you once I know who you are but you'd have to torture me first...

Wxxx

[Chicklet]

. Chicklet is currently a mystery to me. :confused:
but my photo is all over this thread :grin:

[ducasi]

Spose I could point her out to you once I know who you are but you'd have to torture me first... That's easy, I'll just demonstrate my yo-yo on you. :grin: :na:

[Wendy]

but my photo is all over this thread :grin: but we ALL wear basques sweet Chicklet.. how's the poor boy going know it's YOU !!!!!

Wxxx

[Wendy]

That's easy, I'll just demonstrate my yo-yo on you. :grin: :na: :eek: .. oh no not that !!!!! I'll tell you anything you want to know..... not the yo-yo..... please NO !!!!!!!!!

Wxxx

[Wendy]

And Chicklet.... just wondering when our wee Ducasi will find out about the joys of Double Trouble !!!!!! :rofl: :rofl:

And also thinking we should probably leave this thread alone.. remember what happened the last time !!!!!!

Wxxxx

[ducasi]

but my photo is all over this thread :grin: If you turn up on Wednesday looking like that it's not going to be just me that'll be looking for you! :D

I'll see you both tomorrow. Maybe you and a suitable male can demonstrate a double-trouble to me then. :wink:

[Wendy]

See you tomorrow then.... I'm off to Jumpin Jaks to turn some other beginners into quivering wrecks... <wicked Snowhite's Stepmother laugh>

Wxxx

[ducasi]

Week 6! Wow!

This has been an interesting week. A week of highs and lows. The class tonight was similar, except maybe lows and highs...

Curious? :confused:

Read on... :wink:

So the class was upstairs again this week - a bit too cramped I'd say. There were lots of new people - could this be the influence of SDF? (Hey, isn't it cool that S, D & F are next to each other on the keyboard? :grin: )

No new dance moves for me tonight. They were...


Shoulder Slide - I had forgotten how this finishes.
Step Across - trivial
First Move (Push Spin) - to change hands into...
Ceroc Spin - did a lot better with this than before.

Met a few of you characters while doing all this - Hey Guys! :nice:

With all the new beginners it was quite difficult because as well as working out my moves and lead, I'm often having to correct the odd lady :whistle: who isn't able to follow my flawless lead! :innocent:

At the same time there are quite a few (some who I'd have thought would know better) who seem to be leading ahead of me. Someone said that may be because they're trying to be helpful, or else they're trying to keep in time with the music and I'm lagging. Either way, it bugs me. :mad:

During the first freestyle, with a memory fresh from disasters at the weekend, I avoided dancing, hiding behind a cup of water some of the time. :tears:

The rest of the time I talked with the lady taxi dancer (not my current "favourite" taxi dancer, but now making a strong challenge :)) about my progress and whether I should come to the revision class or try the intermediate. Although I've got the moves pretty much sorted in my head they aren't fixed yet, and I think trying to add more advanced moves when I'm still new at this would be a mistake.

How much the revision is helping me is open to question, but it's something to do rather than watch the intermediates and feel inadequate. Plus, I'm helping the other beginners, while at the same time hammering these moves into my "muscle memory!" :waycool:

At the end of the revision, a certain taxi guy mentioned a certain web site, so if any of my fellow beginners are reading this (and I doubt many would make it though all hundred-odd posts) a big "Hi!" to you too! :nice:

And so we went back to the main room for freestyle. Again I had resolved not to dance - I wanted to wait until I had had time to work on my emergency manoeuvres for when my mind goes blank. You know, something other than first move, arm-jive, or yo-yo. :sad:

Unfortunately, some women won't take no for an answer! OK, I didn't say no, but I was thinking it! So a rather good dancer dragged me up and I tried to dance with her. All the same problems as before - I couldn't even remember the routine we'd done in the class, and things went badly.

My partner though was very sympathetic :flower: and helped me and encouraged me, and I made it through with only wounded pride, rather than simply envying Terri Schiavo. (Woo! A little bit topical! A little bit controversial! :devil: )

Afterwards I made a dash for my coat to head out, pausing briefly to see it I could find a couple of ladies you might have come across on this forum... :whistle: - to say goodbye, as I'd said hello to them earlier.

Couldn't find them (sorry), but I got caught by my new favourite taxi dancer (what can I say? my affections are easily swayed :)) and we talked a bit about my problems with freezing up on the dance floor, and also about how I was looking for a dance partner to practice with. She had some good advice on both points. (Thanks! :nice: )

Before I could make safe my escape, I was again captured by an enthusiastic young lady who wouldn't take no for an answer. (She may also be familiar to you forumistas. :wink: )

Based on previous experience - of dancing at the party, of dancing tonight, and of dancing with her - I didn't think this would go well.

No disrespect intended, but last time I danced with her it was really bad. I put all the blame on my shoulders. I tried to warn her this time, but she wasn't going to be disheartened. :flower:

Now this lady doesn't seem to be the patient type. While I'm standing there trying to figure out what I'm going to do, she'll just lead a move anyway. My lead had turned into a co-operative! :eek:

This actually turned out really well though. :what: It meant the dance flowed much more, and while she was thinking for me, it allowed me to get my head back into gear and maybe work out a move to follow on from her move. :confused:

And so we managed to dance through a whole song with much fewer stops and starts than I had feared. She is a really good dancer, and she made me feel that some of the time that I wasn't too shabby either. It was really good. :D

So here was a case of a lady leading that I didn't mind - when I got lost she would decide the move and I'd take over again. Could this be a new style of co-operative lead dancing?? :grin:

I felt so much better at the end of the dance than I did at the beginning. :grin:

Which could only mean one thing!

Time to make a swift exit!!!! :waycool:

Just a brief stop to talk to the teacher... (She had pulled me up during the class for doing something I shouldn't be doing... She wanted to apologise, but I had to tell her I'd only done it that one time, and only because I thought that was what she was telling us to do! We sorted that out, don't worry, I didn't take it personally, and she's a great teacher!)

And that was it!

I generally feel a lot better about dancing tonight than I did after Saturday. I'm not saying a huge breakthrough has occurred, but I could see the progress I had made. In fact lots of people said similar things during class. Maybe I'm really beginning to find my dancing feet.

I know I've forgotten a lot I had wanted to say, but my mind is shutting down on me here.

A few people said I should come along to the Tuesday nights at JJ's, but as I've said before, circumstances don't allow it, plus I don't know I could take two days in a row of dancing and the resultant insomnia.

I'm still looking for a dance partner, though I now have a few more ideas...

I'm unsure about whether to go to the Glasgow beginners' workshop on the 10th. After the Edinburgh one, I don't know how much I'd get out of another one, though at the same time it'd still be useful to me - I'd be practicing dancing, meeting more people and (I expect?) experiencing a different teacher. Have to think about this one.... :confused:

Let me finish by saying "Hi!" again to everyone, and a big thanks to the taxis, to all the girls I danced with (even the crap ones!) and especially to the teacher!

:flower: :hug: :worthy: :cheers:

[bobgadjet]

Week 6! Wow!

A few people said I should come along to the Tuesday nights at JJ's, but as I've said before, circumstances don't allow it, plus I don't know I could take two days in a row of dancing and the resultant insomnia.


:flower: :hug: :worthy: :cheers:
too bloody right matey.

I've not long got in and just HAD to read todays epic, but now it's sooooo late.

Great stuff again, but you MUST stay for the freestle now, as this is the only way you are going to improve quicker.

My suggestion.......
After the revisio lesson, take up with the beginners and dance with them.

Unless they have been going longer than you, or are getting better quicker than you, they should be at a level that would give you more confidence, then the following week you could try the intermediate class.

Good luck, and keep us all posted.
:cheers:

[MartinHarper]

I wanted to wait until I had had time to work on my emergency manoeuvres for when my mind goes blank. You know, something other than first move, arm-jive, or yo-yo. :sad:

I really wish I could somehow convince you that there's nothing wrong with having three different emergency manouevures for when your mind goes blank - not least because I've been dancing for over a year now, and I only have six....
Still, this restlessness can only be good for your speed of learning, so I see great things in your dancing future! :)

[johnthehappyguy]

Nice to meet you tonight.

Get dancing more in freestyle !!!

With so many spare ladies tonight it was a crime for men to be sitting out.

So what if you are not the best dancer on the floor, as long as you are polite, fresh smelling, and not a yanker, then there were loads of ladies tonight who would have been really happy for you to dance with them.

Worse than that , there were ladies there tonight who will be disappointed that you did not dance with them.

You were standing next to several beginnners when I saw you in the corner.

Why not ask them up, as one Teacher says, the best way to learn to dance is to dance !


Chin up mate and hang in there.


johnthehappyguy :nice:

[Graham]

More interesting observations. One of your favourite girl taxis is on the forum, incidentally, so be careful what you say :wink:

Just to be pedantic :rolleyes: it was a shoulder-drop not a shoulder-slide (which is another move) :wink:

I appreciate that you might think that you have got the bulk of what you need out of the revision class (and the workshop), but I would strongly encourage you to continue, not out of generosity to other beginners, but because the first time round there are a host of things you don't pick up. If I observe that someone is clearly at a level to move on, I will chat to them and suggest that perhaps they should try the intermediate class, but sadly the vast majority leave before they are ready, especially the men, who ironically are usually not at as high a standard as the women. Even after three years of dancing I was amazed to discover at a beginner's workshop how many basic mistakes I was making, and I know others have had the same experience.

If you have mastered the patterns, concentrate on how WELL you are executing them, and how good your lead is.

[David Bailey]

I really wish I could somehow convince you that there's nothing wrong with having three different emergency manouevures for when your mind goes blank - not least because I've been dancing for over a year now, and I only have six....
Not only is there nothing wrong, it's mandatory to have filler moves, I think, at any level. Obviously, as a beginner, they allow you time to think of a move you want to do next, and maybe get you in position for that move. But they're always useful.

For example, as an experienced dancer, you could be dancing to a track you haven't heard before (it does happen :)), and there's an unexpected change in the music - whilst you're trying to get a hang of it, you have to do something with your partner or she'll run off. That's where those lovely filler moves come in, they give you time to get back in to the music.

(P.S. Six? Hell, I only have three, what have I been doing with myself all this time...? :))

[ducasi]

More interesting observations. One of your favourite girl taxis is on the forum, incidentally, so be careful what you say :wink: Cheers Graham, though I start with the assumption that anything I write about anyone may get back to them. For this reason I don't name names, I don't go into details and I hope I don't say anything that would offend or upset anyone. Within that context, I then try to have some fun and to entertain. I hope it's working! :nice:

Over the weeks both lady taxi dancers have been very, very helpful and I really wouldn't still be around if it wasn't for their sympathetic encouragement. They are real heros. :flower:

Just to be pedantic :rolleyes: it was a shoulder-drop not a shoulder-slide (which is another move) :wink: You're right, of course. I think I get the names mixed up as I find the step to the side bit in the shoulder-drop to be a bit more of a slide-y kind of thing than what happens during a shoulder slide. :confused:

I appreciate that you might think that you have got the bulk of what you need out of the revision class (and the workshop), but I would strongly encourage you to continue, not out of generosity to other beginners, but because the first time round there are a host of things you don't pick up. ... Cheers, I will, and I'll be ready to take guidance from you as to when I'm ready to move up.

Thanks!

[CJ]

Bite the bullet.

Do the freestyle.

Here endeth the lesson.

(but not the learning!! :wink: )

[Wendy]

Cheers, I will, and I'll be ready to take guidance from you as to when I'm ready to move up. Glad to hear that !!! IMO knowing more moves doesn't make you a better dancer and if you haven't got a really solid foundation you'll just make the same mistakes that you've been making in your beginner moves in ALL your moves :sick:

Beginner dancers are not crap dancers - they are still learning. I consider the crap dancers to be those in the Intermediate class who have moved up too soon.

Wx

[ducasi]

... Great stuff again, but you MUST stay for the freestle now, as this is the only way you are going to improve quicker.

My suggestion.......
After the revisio lesson, take up with the beginners and dance with them. ...
... Get dancing more in freestyle !!!

With so many spare ladies tonight it was a crime for men to be sitting out.

...

Worse than that , there were ladies there tonight who will be disappointed that you did not dance with them.

You were standing next to several beginnners when I saw you in the corner.

Why not ask them up, as one Teacher says, the best way to learn to dance is to dance ! Hmmm... Two people, same message...

Correction! Three people, same message!

Bite the bullet.

Do the freestyle. Last week I avoided non-beginners, sticking with those at my standard. I was told I should dance with more intermediates.

This week I didn't want to dance with anyone, but did dance with intermediates that asked me.

I would have danced with anyone who asked me, but my confidence after the Saturday dance was so low that I didn't want to impose myself on anybody.

After the relative success last night I'm feeling a bit more confident, so maybe next week I'll be on the floor more.

We'll see. :grin:

[Wendy]

Do the freestyle !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wx

[ducasi]

Do the freestyle !!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm beginning to detect a trend here... :wink:

[azande]

Do the freestyle !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wx

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

[Lory]

Do the freestyle !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wx
:yeah: its the ONLY way! :flower: :hug:

[CJ]

Do the freestyle !!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's a message there, if you've not gone deaf yet...

[latinlover]

................................ my confidence after the Saturday dance was so low that I didn't want to impose myself on anybody.



I know what you mean
I had a bad salsa experience last week and decided not to go this week.But
I ended up being obliged to go for weird reasons,and had a great time!-lots of stuff came back to the memory
I'd clearly just had a bad night
You have to keep getting back on the horse that threw you
..............................................in other words....................

do the freestyle !

[bobgadjet]

Beginner dancers are not crap dancers - they are still learning. I consider the crap dancers to be those in the Intermediate class who have moved up too soon.

Wx
:yeah:

They are the best to dance with as they are SO receptive, and appreciative OF JUST BEING ASKED sometimes.

I only suggested dancing with beginners so that YOU might feel better that you are better than them (maybe :whistle: ), but the BEST would be to dance with more advanced dancers.

THE WORST ARE THOSE THAT think they are GREAT, but cannot even dance in time with the music.
:cheers:

[bobgadjet]

You have to keep getting back on the horse that threw you
..............................................in other words....................

do the freestyle !
That's no way to talk about the lovely taxi dancers :wink:

[Wendy]

I quite like the idea of being a horse that throws someone (ohh which smillie to choose ????)

Wx

[John S]

Beginner dancers are not crap dancers - they are still learning. I consider the crap dancers to be those in the Intermediate class who have moved up too soon.

Wx
Spot on, my little dark friend. :hug:

It's a bugbear of mine, that every week I see people doing the intermediate class and freestyling as though they've got it all sussed, when frankly they should have stayed in the revision class and got a much better grounding in the basics before they left it.

However, I guess it's only natural to want to move up and not be classed with the total beginners, pity we all then suffer the consequences. Maybe there should be a custom of moving up gradually, eg week about in the revision and intermediate classes.
<<Rant over>>

[clevedonboy]

The transisition from beginner to intermediate is just about the hardest thing to get right IMHO, partly because of the nature of "intermediate" classes. down yer where it's Leroc, intermediate classes at my original venue are difficult for new entrants to intermediatehood; leans, drops, seducers are all on the menu along with some pretty complex moves. Last week new intermediates had to tackle a Flamenco Catapult - 17 beats. The week before there was a Tango Seducer - I don't think any revision class can get you ready for this as one of your first moves in an intermediate class. However it is inevitible that someone is going to have this happen to them as long as intermediate classes have to cater for experienced dancers (and why shouldn't they?)

I noted one venue (I forget where) had Beginners, IMPROVERS & Intermediates. It's the middle group who have the toughest time in my experience - no revision class, no workshop (there must be money to be made there surely?), just sink or swim with the big boys & girls.

[Wendy]

Nice rant, John, wee chum !!! I soo agree!!!!!

The other week a beginner sat and WATCHED and chatted through the beginner class (17 women on !!!! that is MY bugbear)) and when I asked why he hadn't joined in he said that he was a bit bored with beginner moves now !!!! arrrggghhhhhhhhh.... I kindly (yeah that was hard but I'm a professional!!!) suggested that he could join in as a favour to the extra women...

I always round up people for my class and with those who want to move up too soon I suggest they do a revision class once a fortnight or once a month as there is always something to learn...

I remember doing a workshop once and the guy spent about 3/4 of an hour on the first move and I wasn't bored !!!!!!! I was still a beginner and couldn't believe how much detail there was !!!!

Why is it that some men (and I think it is men more than women) think it would do their dancing good to do intermediate moves when they haven't mastered the beginner moves ?????? Is it arrogance, ignorance or do we spend so much time rubbing their egos that it all goes to their heads ???????

Wxxx

[TheTramp]

Why is it that some men (and I think it is men more than women)
I think that it's important to remember that it takes much longer for the guys to 'get it' at the beginning, than it does for ladies (usually).

Ladies have to learn how to follow. Guys have to learn the moves, and then be able to think about them quickly enough to be able to do them on the dance floor while they are leading (or trying to anyhow).

So, you could say that the guys need to spend maybe twice as long (rough generalisation - some pick it up quicker, some pick it up more slowly) as the ladies in the beginner class. Of course, if they guy starts coming to dancing with a lady who is ready (and capable) of moving up, then he feels under pressure to move up with her maybe. Or not necessarily starts coming with a lady, but the ladies in the revision class who started at the same time as him. Etc.

Of course, it's a problem. Not offering any solutions at the moment. Just sticking up for my gender! :flower:

[ducasi]

Beginner dancers are not crap dancers - they are still learning. I consider the crap dancers to be those in the Intermediate class who have moved up too soon. Where did I say they were? :innocent:

I said:

... a big thanks to the taxis, to all the girls I danced with (even the crap ones!) ... See, the word "beginner" doesn't appear in that statement! :wink:

I seriously meant those dancers that I perceived for one reason or another to be poor dancers. There probably were just as many "crap" intermediates (who may have moved up too soon) as beginners, if not more.

Either way, I still think of myself as a crap dancer. :tears: :wink:

[Wendy]

Where did I say they were? :innocent:

I said:
See, the word "beginner" doesn't appear in that statement! :wink:

I seriously meant those dancers that I perceived for one reason or another to be poor dancers. There probably were just as many "crap" intermediates (who may have moved up too soon) as beginners, if not more.

Either way, I still think of myself as a crap dancer. :tears: :wink:Beginners are great !!! I love them every one !!! Dickensian accent..

I am sure when you said crap dancers you were doing that tonque in cheek thing (an advanced move - well done!!!).... if I really had thought you were even hinting that other dancers were crap I might have come down on you with a much heavier ton of bricks !!!!!! :flower: I was a little worried that you were thinking that any dancer was "crap" - you are fairly new to this game afterall....

And you are not crap !!!!!!!!
You are a beginner !!!!!!

And lots of people think I'm a crap dancer...and luckily cos I'm a girl that can only be their fault !!!! :rofl: :rofl: And anyway, there is no such thing as a crap dancer it's just a mis-match.... :flower:

Wx

[ChrisA]

Why is it that some men (and I think it is men more than women) think it would do their dancing good to do intermediate moves when they haven't mastered the beginner moves ?????? Is it arrogance, ignorance or do we spend so much time rubbing their egos that it all goes to their heads ???????
Part of it is this notional 6 weeks thing that seems to be put about, so people think that moving up then is Ok.

But I think that some blokes, from the look of ecstasy on their faces while twisting the girl through complicated winding moves with regard for neither the beat (let alone the music) nor the anatomy of a shoulder joint, simply don't realise what the point is, but instead think it's cool to do the complicated stuff.

In fairness, complicated moves when executed well, by Viktor for instance, do look very cool. The difficulty is that guys don't feel either what he's doing, or, more importantly, what the ladies are feeling while he's doing it. So it doesn't take all that much insensitivity to assume that if the movement is similar, the coolness is similar too. Since guys are usually much stronger, they can exert large forces without (some of them at least) realising what they've done.

I think it's more likely to be ignorance than arrogance. The education can only come from the ladies, though. From the stage, an admonition not to exert force is wasted because guys don't believe they're doing it.

Any decent bloke would want to know if he's hurting someone by forcing their joints in unnatural directions, so I'd encourage the girls to tell them if they do. :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Why is it that some men (and I think it is men more than women) think it would do their dancing good to do intermediate moves when they haven't mastered the beginner moves ??????

You don't need to have mastered the beginner's moves to benefit from an intermediate class.

You only need to be sufficiently good at the beginners moves so that you are comfortable with the fact that the intermediate moves you are going to be learning are often based on variations of the beginner's moves.

Even if you spent 6 years doing nothing but beginner's moves, that still wouldn't prepare you for the gap between beginner's classes (where you will be familiar with the teaching script for all four moves to be taught, after a few weeks) and intermediate classes where you wont. In fact, after a few weeks in a beginner's class you are going to stop learning because you already *think* you know how to do the moves. It's only by going to an intermediate class and seeing how the moves are extended and reworked that you are going to appreciate all the fine points of the beginner's moves that you are currently missing because of your false familiarity with them.

It's all very well saying that you can teach the First Move for an hour or more - but it isn't taught for an hour or more in the beginner's class. The only way that most people get close to 'perfecting' this beginner's move is by experiencing and appreciating many of the dozens of variations on it - all of which bring the vanilla version into sharp relief.

So you can put me in the pile of opinions that says you can all back off and let people move up when *they* honestly think they're good and ready.

[ducasi]

I am sure when you said crap dancers you were doing that tonque in cheek thing (an advanced move - well done!!!).... if I really had thought you were even hinting that other dancers were crap I might have come down on you with a much heavier ton of bricks !!!!!! :flower: I was a little worried that you were thinking that any dancer was "crap" - you are fairly new to this game afterall.... Of course, I wouldn't be so arrogant to think of anyone as a crap dancer. I do perceive differences though, which as you say could be either mismatches or just one of us in need of improvement.

I was a little worried that you were thinking that any dancer was "crap" - you are fairly new to this game afterall.... Don't think that because I'm just a beginner I can't tell the difference between really, really good and really, really bad. I haven't come across anyone yet that I would class as "really, really bad", but I'd know it if I saw it.

Now maybe if I saw myself dancing...

And you are not crap !!!!!!!!
You are a beginner !!!!!! Oops! :wink:

[Wendy]

... I think that some blokes, from the look of ecstasy on their faces while twisting the girl through complicated winding moves with regard for neither the beat (let alone the music) nor the anatomy of a shoulder joint, simply don't realise what the point is, but instead think it's cool to do the complicated stuff.Yeah.... :tears:

There is also the dilemma of fragile egos and men being so precious... (in the sense that we need them and there aren't too many to go around)... we wouldn't want to lose them !!!! As far as I can tell it takes a man to sexually assault people before we even think of throwing him out n'est-ce pas ???? Never mind the dippers and droppers who risk seriously hurting us ????

Wxxx

[El Salsero Gringo]

... I think that some blokes, from the look of ecstasy on their faces while twisting the girl through complicated winding moves with regard for neither the beat (let alone the music) nor the anatomy of a shoulder joint, simply don't realise what the point is, but instead think it's cool to do the complicated stuff.Yeah.... :tears:
If all the guys at a venue are using too much force then there's something seriously wrong with the teaching at that venue. And it's the Taxi dancers who are in pole position to fix it, since they dance with the beginners on a regular basis.


There is also the dilemma of fragile egos and men being so precious... (in the sense that we need them and there aren't too many to go around)... we wouldn't want to lose them !!!!So that stops you from letting people know where they're going wrong? Oh for goodness sake. To listen to the two of you whinging you'd wonder how anyone ever learnt Ceroc because they were too busy having their egos massaged by all the female taxi-dancers.

(Actually, Wendy, where is it you Taxi? I might have to come along and try it. We certainly never got that treatment in London.)

[David Bailey]

I noted one venue (I forget where) had Beginners, IMPROVERS & Intermediates.
Honestly, I love that idea - I guess it's not commercially viable though... And then we'd probably get back to arguing what constitutes an Intermediate dancer ... :grin:

[David Bailey]

I think that it's important to remember that it takes much longer for the guys to 'get it' at the beginning, than it does for ladies (usually).
<snip excellent points>

I'm always going to :yeah: any defence of men, but that's a good point - as a beginner, I think it's easier for a follower than a leader. Maybe there should be some differentiation.

OTOH, I suspect that saying "guys, you'll take twice as long because it's twice as hard" will reduce the number of intermediate guys more... OK, no, I haven't got any answer either, but at least I guess this explains why Ceroc focusses on teaching the leader rather than the follower...

[Lynn]

I noted one venue (I forget where) had Beginners, IMPROVERS & Intermediates. It's the middle group who have the toughest time in my experience - no revision class, no workshop (there must be money to be made there surely?), just sink or swim with the big boys & girls. When the weekly class was running here, it was too small to divide up (it was tried but didn't really work), so the teacher did about 2 beginner moves and 2 easier intermediate moves each week. If it was your first few weeks you could sit and watch the intermediate moves. It wasn't an ideal system, but it worked ok for us to start off with. It would have become more problematic over time as dancers progressed, but the classes stopped so we never got to that stage.

[Wendy]

So that stops you from letting people know where they're going wrong? ...To listen to the two of you whinging you'd wonder how anyone ever learnt Ceroc because they were too busy having their egos massaged by all the female taxi-dancers.
(Actually, Wendy, where is it you Taxi? I might have to come along and try it. We certainly never got that treatment in London.) It is very hard to let beginners know where they are going wrong because you are trying to focus on what they are doing right !!!! (and it is my understanding that we aren't there to teach, we are there to make them come back.. no smillie) With new beginners every week you only get to dance with them a couple of times before they (think they) are Intermediate ... and as I dance as a man in the revision class I don't get to dance with them while I'm teaching .. and the beginner women aren't likely to point out to them what they are gettng wrong cos they don't know !!!!

As far as the ego-stroking goes.. have another wee read of Ducasi's experience.... I doubt if he'd have carried on without the encouragement of his Taxis... and I feel able to say that cos I haven't been one... I can't understand why he won't come to my night :rofl:

I Taxi in Glasgow on a Tuesday but since you aren't a beginner I wouldn't give you the same treatment. Off duty I'm really horrible... back-leading, hi-jacking and all that stuff... it's a Jekyll and Hyde thing... :innocent: :devil:


Wxxx

[MartinHarper]

I don't know anyone who's modern jive has been damaged by moving up to intermediate level too quickly. I'd prefer that they didn't, but that's largely for selfish reasons - it's not wildly fun to attempt an intermediate routine involving fast spins and dips with someone on their first week.

I can see the importance of learning dance fundamentals, but my experience was that the beginner revision classes had the same minimalistic approach to technique as the intermediate classes. That said, it does sound like beginner revision classes vary a lot from franchise to franchise.

At Ceroc Kidderminster, they have two beginner revision classes: one takes place before the beginner class, and the second one takes place during the intermediate class. This I found an excellent approach, because it allowed me to get the best of both worlds.

[Wendy]

I don't know anyone who's modern jive has been damaged by moving up to intermediate level too quickly. And I wonder how many men you have danced with who haven't grasped the basics yet ????

Wxxx

[Gadget]

Beginner dancers are not crap dancers - they are still learning. I consider the crap dancers to be those in the Intermediate class who have moved up too soon.
There has been so much positive "yea, that's right!" about this statement, and I think it's wrong:

- It is not only beginner dancers who are still learning, but the new 'intermediate'; as such, they are not "crap" dancers. (or at least the beginners are equally "crap")

- What is "too soon"? When they can't get the intermediate class? If everyone 'got' it, then the class is pitched too low IMHO. They have just stepped up from a beginners class where they may have done all the moves twice through - and you expect them to do it right first time?

- Do you want to force people to stay down in the beginner's class when they are getting board with the same moves, getting tired of new ladies mirroring the stage without following you, wanting to expand and improve beyond what they are seeing from the beginner's class? I thought that the idea was to keep these people that showed enthusiasm and an obvious joy for dancing - this "you shouldn't be here" attitude lacks the warmth and compassion I would expect.

- How are beginners going to improve if they are no longer learning anything new from the class or revision workshops and are then not allowed to join in a class where they may struggle, but will probably enjoy it and learn more?

- If a new intermediate struggles too much, then they will (normally) drop out and go back to the revision workshop untill they feel ready again. (hopefully - the other scenario I could see is dropping out never to return)
I admit this is not always the case, but what's to stop an experianced dancer taking them out to one side and spending some one-on-one time with them? Or trying to actually lead (/follow) no matter how difficult it is while instructing your partner on how/what to do to get it to work. Maybe some light banter about how different this class is to the beginners and the level of skills you need to do it well.
Considering them instead of complaining to yourself that you got a beginner.

- I would never consider any dancer to be "crap"; dangerous, inexperianced, slease, out of time, needing work, ... I may consider one aspect of someone's dancing to be "crap" (including my own), but the whole?

- To say "You're a crap dancer because you moved up without anyone telling you you could" or "You're a crap dancer because you can't even get the beginner moves right" is just plain nasty. :(

As I said - I think that the statement is wrong and people should make up their own minds about when to advance; perhaps with some advice and taking heed of their partners once in the class.

[MartinHarper]

I wonder how many men you have danced with who haven't grasped the basics yet?

You should get on the phone to Graham Norton and tell him that it's impossible to judge how good a dancer someone is unless you've actually danced with them.

[Wendy]

Too much to quote...


To say "You're a crap dancer because you moved up without anyone telling you you could" or "You're a crap dancer because you can't even get the beginner moves right" is just plain nasty. :(
I know, and I agree and later I said that there is no such thing as a crap dancer - only a mis-match !!! I would never tell anyone that they are a crap dancer for a start !!! I might think that they are arrogant ********s cos they think they have mastered the basics when clearly they haven't !!! Maybe you too should have a dance with a guy who hasn't got a clue (but who thinks he has) and try to follow !!!! Unless you do that, you'll never know what we are talking about.

Wxxx

[Graham]

You should get on the phone to Graham Norton and tell him that it's impossible to judge how good a dancer someone is unless you've actually danced with them.
I certainly think it's not especially easy to judge how good someone's leading (or following for that matter) is without dancing with them, although it is to some extent possible to observe errors. Luckily for Graham Norton, he doesn't have to judge, and even if he did, the couples are being judged as a partnership rather than as individuals, so it isn't necessary for the judges to be able to determine accurately whether a particular vice or virtue is a feature of the leading or the following.


- What is "too soon"? When they can't get the intermediate class? If everyone 'got' it, then the class is pitched too low IMHO. They have just stepped up from a beginners class where they may have done all the moves twice through - and you expect them to do it right first time?
In my opinion, it doesn't matter greatly if women move up to the intermediate class too quickly, although if they can't follow it's not going to be a particularly pleasant experience for either them or their partners. Nowadays I can cope with more or less any partner, but I can't pretend I enjoy trying to dance complicated moves with someone who has difficulty with turn/return.

What is much more the issue here is when men move up before they have some proficiency in the beginner moves. When I say too soon, some guys think they're ready after a couple of weeks, so they haven't even seen all the beginner moves, never mind mastered them. We tell people that the revision class is for people who have been coming less than 3 months, but honestly if we managed to get the bulk of the men to stay in it for 6 weeks I'd call it a step forward.


it's not wildly fun to attempt an intermediate routine involving fast spins and dips with someone on their first week.
It's even less fun if you're the one being spun and dropped by someone on their second or third week.

[Gadget]

Maybe you too should have a dance with a guy who hasn't got a clue (but who thinks he has) and try to follow !!!! Unless you do that, you'll never know what we are talking about.
Probably - but I would need to become at least a competent follower first; and I'm a loooong way from that. :blush:

However I have danced in the intermediate class with ladys who don't seem to be able to follow even the clearest of leads I can give (with both hands and a generous application of coersion). Steps are miles away; turns are half-completed, off balance and out of time; the arms go from spagetti to iron depending on if I'm trying to lead or she's trying to move where she feels she should...:tears: oh yes, I have had my share of people that really should have been with the taxi dancers rather than in the intermediate class :sick:.

And I think that my dancing has actually improved because of it; if I can lead someone like that all the way through an intermediate routine (while actually keeping in time with the teacher), then when I get an experianced dancer, I have the movement and path the lady should follow a lot clearer.

I have learned from these people ways to move the lady and timing / positioning to move myself that I apply to almost every dance. I have learned how to maintain contact without grip, where a tension hold breaks and a compression hold gives. I have learned to use my 'spare' hand to provide an additional lead. If it wasn't for these people coming into the intermediate class 'early', I don't think I would be able to lead as clearly as I can now.

{This is not saying they should or shoudn't; just that if you are given lemons, make lemonade.}

[Graham]

...oh yes, I have had my share of people that really should have been with the taxi dancers rather than in the intermediate class :sick:.

And I think that my dancing has actually improved because of it...
I think you were typing at the same time as me, so I'll assume you hadn't seen my previous post.

I agree - poor followers can do a lot to improve your leading. But what exactly is it that followers are supposed to get out of poor leading? Other than bad habits, I mean (but we have another thread for back-leading.......)

[Wendy]

You should get on the phone to Graham Norton and tell him that it's impossible to judge how good a dancer someone is unless you've actually danced with them. Well he never danced with me and I never got through.. says it all really !!!! :waycool:

The Graham Norton thing is about "performance" dancing not about "experiencing" dancing... Performance dancing is much more of an external energy thing and experiencing dancing is more internal.. (well to the couple.. well that's if it works !!!! some people are really on their own even if someone else is there!!!).. I think of it as trying to judge a lover by looking at them perform ... :sick:

I know I have a great dance relationship with some men (and women !!!) .. and I couldn't give a **** if it looks good or not...it feels great !!!!


Wxxx

[Gadget]

I think you were typing at the same time as me, so I'll assume you hadn't seen my previous post. must have been - had to scroll up to read it :D


I agree - poor followers can do a lot to improve your leading. But what exactly is it that followers are supposed to get out of poor leading?
I admit; I'm selfish and always think on the lead's perspective first - must be a man thing :whistle:
.... Dunno off hand, but I will think on it.

[Wendy]

I agree - poor followers can do a lot to improve your leading. But what exactly is it that followers are supposed to get out of poor leading? Other than bad habits, I mean (but we have another thread for back-leading.......) :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Wxxx

[MartinHarper]

what exactly is it that followers are supposed to get out of poor leading?

The ability to adapt to poor leads, without either anticipating or back-leading.

[Wendy]

Sounds like another workshop to me. In fact we could even run workshops for men to ensure they had a REALLY poor lead so we could go on a workshop to be even better at following them !!!!

Wxxx

[Lou]

The transisition from beginner to intermediate is just about the hardest thing to get right
Ahhhh... Andrew - we agree again, Dearheart! It's an obvious gap. However, it doesn't seem to be financially viable to teach an Improvers class. I tried with Stoke Gifford. We actually got a reasonable retention rate for beginners, however, it was hard to keep hold of the more experienced dancers. And the venue wasn't big enough to do both Improvers and Intermediate classes.

Maybe the occasional workshop might be a better way to do it.

[Lou]

The ability to adapt to poor leads, without either anticipating or back-leading.
Of course, it does depend on what type of poor lead. I can't imagine anyone would get anything out of dancing with a yanker. But where the leader is indecisive, or unclear, maybe it is possible...

Seriously, this is a fantastic skill that I've seen and admired in talented followers, and would love to be able to do myself. It's incredibly hard to do, so that the dance looks & feels good, but the follower doesn't intimidate the leader.

[David Bailey]

(Re: what followers get out of poor leading) The ability to adapt to poor leads, without either anticipating or back-leading.
Well, yes, every cloud has a silver lining, but it seems a very poor way of improving your "basic follower" skills to me - you might as well say that pedestrians develop better reflexes if drivers ignore them more :)

As a follower, I'd imagine the downsides mught include physical damage to shoulders, feet, and God knows what other organs, atrophy of ability to interpret or improvise, and most of all, not having fund during the dance. Why would any follower put themselves through that?

</rant> - I'm just sulking now because I'm stuck in on a Saturday night :tears:

[bigdjiver]

... And I think that my dancing has actually improved because of it; if I can lead someone like that all the way through an intermediate routine (while actually keeping in time with the teacher), then when I get an experianced dancer, I have the movement and path the lady should follow a lot clearer.

I have learned from these people ways to move the lady and timing / positioning to move myself that I apply to almost every dance. I have learned how to maintain contact without grip, where a tension hold breaks and a compression hold gives. I have learned to use my 'spare' hand to provide an additional lead. If it wasn't for these people coming into the intermediate class 'early', I don't think I would be able to lead as clearly as I can now. :yeah: The rep-meister blocked me again.

When we are leading in freestyle we may be leading a move that the follower has never done before. MJ is a bit about being able to teach as we lead. (Maybe we should be learning as we lead too, but, climb one mountain at a time ...)

[Magic Hans]

You don't need to have mastered the beginner's moves to benefit from an intermediate class.

You only need to be sufficiently good at the beginners moves so that you are comfortable with the fact that the intermediate moves you are going to be learning are often based on variations of the beginner's moves.

...

:yeah: :yeah:

And what Gadget said!!!

Hopefully, anyone who moves up any class (in this case, intermediate) and is not yet ready will a) get scared back down to the revision class, and b) get some idea of what they need to pick up in order to have another go.

And in fact, there is no lead/follow in these classes (IMO), moves are simply being learned in sequence ..... except where the follower ignores (or takes little notice) of the teacher/trainer.

And as Gadget put so well, impromptu leading skills are up for learning, when we're open to it!

Personally, I can't see why it shouldn't be the same for following ... although I can't say for sure. Certainly I know of one experienced lady who exerts some definite control when being spun, and there is that strategy of stepping one foot back when being leaned backwards, in order to retain balance.

I'd like to think that I could pick up one or two more protection type moves, were I to do more following!


!an

[MartinHarper]

physical damage to shoulders, feet, and God knows what other organs

Not all poor leaders are painful and/or damaging. There is more to good leading than not crippling your partner.

[Magic Hans]

physical damage to shoulders, feet, and God knows what other organsNot all poor leaders are painful and/or damaging. There is more to good leading than not crippling your partner.

Maybe so ..... good place to start though!!

[drathzel]

Maybe so ..... good place to start though!!

:yeah: If you can make it thro a night without injuring anyone then you are doing well! :hug:

[David Bailey]

Not all poor leaders are painful and/or damaging. There is more to good leading than not crippling your partner.
Oh God, totally - and I never meant to imply otherwise. I wouldn't like to start defining what makes a good (or even bad) lead, there are so many different factors.

On the other hand, I'd say "First, do no harm" isn't a bad principle to start with :)

[bigdjiver]

Last night I performed some unintentional experiments with beginners.

Last week I went along to an unfamiliar venue. Miss DHB (dark haired beauty) had come along for her third night bringing her friend Miss Rigidity along for her first. At the start of freestyle I asked Miss Rigidity for a dance, and, with much persuasion from Miss DHB and myself I got her onto the floor. She was literally scared stiff, but I managed to get her to relax. She followed everything I led, and we impressed DHB.

I then danced with Miss DHB, and led her through the track with no problem.
Later I had another dance with each, no problem. Just before I nights end, I was very pleased to see Miss DHB and Miss Rigidity practising the beginner class together.

This week Miss Rigidity did not return, but Miss DHB did. As freestyle started I made a beeline towards her, and she smiled. However I got intercepted by a lady I knew from another venue, Miss Acrobatics. She wanted to do her specialities, so I took her to a corner of the room, and we went through some beyond the intermediate moves. She got a second dance. Once again I started towards DHB, but again got intercepted, this time by Miss Blues. She had two very sensuous tracks.

One more interception I finally got to DHB, who had not been asked to dance at all. Now it was her that was as stiff as a board. I said "You were watching, weren't you" and she replied that she had seen what I had been doing with those other women. I told her that they had been doing MJ for years, I was not going to try anything like that with her, just relax and enjoy etc She had relaxed a bit by the end, but was nowhere near to the happy state I had left her in last week.

I have mooted the theory on this forum that advanced dancers might deter beginners by setting standards that seemed unobtainable or undesirable, and this experience seemed to support that view.

I then turned to the other beginners, who would normally have been first on the list in freestyle. I found myself dancing with them as the music was rising in "quality". So I found myself dancing "Last Tango" and "Fire" with beginners, ( ideal for Miss Blues). The beginners reaction as "Last Tango" started was "this sounds ominous". She had a sense of musicality, but did not have the confidence or experience to be able to express it, and I lacked the expertise to be able to help her enough.

This added to my views on keeping the music simple for beginners.

[ChrisA]

and she replied that she had seen what I had been doing with those other women. I told her that they had been doing MJ for years, I was not going to try anything like that with her, just relax and enjoy etc She had relaxed a bit by the end, but was nowhere near to the happy state I had left her in last week.

I have mooted the theory on this forum that advanced dancers might deter beginners by setting standards that seemed unobtainable or undesirable

I think this almost goes without saying. Of course they might deter them - but equally they might give them a great time and enable them to do stuff they wouldn't otherwise have been able to do, thereby motivating and encouraging them.

It sounds as if you did all you could do to reassure DHB that despite the athletic aerials and studly blues she'd seen you doing, you wouldn't stress her beyond her abilities or sensitivities, and it sounds as if she responded to some degree - and credit to you for that.

But regrettably there will always be a very few that are just unconvinceable.

If there was no one doing good stuff at a venue, I'd agree that none of the beginners would be intimidated. But equally there'd be nothing for them to aim for, and in the context of your mission to encourage the growth of MJ (which, naturally, I support), I'd suggest that this would end up a lot worse.



The beginners reaction as "Last Tango" started was "this sounds ominous".
This reaction is exceedingly rare, in my experience. Normally it is perfectly Ok for experienced dancers to just dance unmusically with very new beginner girls, and just not do anything with the breaks and other colour (which is what 95% of the intermediate dancers are all doing with each other anyway).

Difficult music would be likely to be more of a problem for beginner guys, since they really do need to hear the rhythm to be able to dance to it properly.

And even for beginner guys, it's often not that they can't hear rhythm, it's that they can't string moves together in their mind, quickly enough to stay with the beat with their body. Gradually this problem abates with experience, and then what normally happens, is that guys just do nothing with the breaks until they learn how, and just dance through them perfectly rhythmically.

So although I'm certainly not disputing the observations you made, I would suggest that it's rare for the things you found to be a problem.

[skippy]

I have mooted the theory on this forum that advanced dancers might deter beginners by setting standards that seemed unobtainable or undesirable, and this experience seemed to support that view.

This added to my views on keeping the music simple for beginners.

I absolutely agree with this, when I was a taxi dancer I often found the first break between the beginners and intermediates class the music was great but often too difficult for beginners to catch the beat making it hard for them to count the moves. (sorry to the DJ concerned, but his music is great but think beat when its the beginners times!!)
Advanced dancers can dance to anything.

:flower: :hug: :flower: :hug: :flower: :hug: :flower:

[David Bailey]

Last night I performed some unintentional experiments with beginners.

...

One more interception I finally got to DHB, who had not been asked to dance at all. Now it was her that was as stiff as a board. I said "You were watching, weren't you" and she replied that she had seen what I had been doing with those other women. I told her that they had been doing MJ for years, I was not going to try anything like that with her, just relax and enjoy etc She had relaxed a bit by the end, but was nowhere near to the happy state I had left her in last week.

I have mooted the theory on this forum that advanced dancers might deter beginners by setting standards that seemed unobtainable or undesirable, and this experience seemed to support that view.

Excellent anecdote, but it's still anecdotal. Where's ESG with his surveys when you need him?

I think it can put people off, but I don't think it always does - I think it depends on a whole range of factors, including your attitude to dancing, what you want to get out of it, how seriously you take it, how much self-confidence you have, and so on. It's like any activity - are you put off playing tennis by watching Venus Williams, for example, or are you inspired by it? Or do you just want to watch it?

In your situation, the lady had just seen (one assumes :)) some virtuoso dancing, and compared it to hers - it's only natural that she'd be intimidated. On the other hand, this is arguably an exceptional case - she'd seen dancers dancing well before and wasn't put off, it was just when it got personal that she felt awkward.

Having said that, if she really is a DHB, I'm sure she'll get lots of offers to dance and overcome her shyness, where was that venue again...? :whistle:

[bigdjiver]

... In your situation, the lady had just seen (one assumes :)) some virtuoso dancing, and compared it to hers - it's only natural that she'd be intimidated. Assume not. This was only her third week. The intermediate class probably all looked virtuso to her. At that venue and in only three weeks, I doubt she had seen an elevated layback, a through the legs, or a half moon before.


... if she really is a DHB, I'm sure she'll get lots of offers to dance and overcome her shyness, where was that venue again...? :whistle:She was outgoing, not shy, and literally scared stiff. I can only guess if it was because she did not trust me to keep it simple, or whether she felt she might be being judged against more advanced, sensous and courageous partners she had seen me with, or for some other reason. The warm smile I got as I approached first time, and the strained one after, would seem to indicate that the problem was in the routines rather than in my personailty. I intend to return next week and ask her to dance, postponing any requests (I should be so lucky a second time) to try and give her the confidence that I value her as a partner. I am open to advice on that plan.

As for naming the venue - dream on. There is a dancer there ...

[Gadget]

At that venue and in only three weeks, I doubt she had seen an elevated layback, a through the legs, or a half moon before.I've been dancing years, and I know what a 'layback' is, I can guess at a 'through the legs' and although I know what a ful moon is, I doubt anyone but CJ would do it on the dance floor; I have no idea what a 'half moon' is!

I can safely say that there is only one lead (I know of) who does aerobatic moves at my venue - and I'm not surprised that any beginner looked on in trepidation. I know he knows what he's doing. I know the ladys know what he's doing. I occasionally look on in trepidation.

[ChrisA]

I can safely say that there is only one lead (I know of) who does aerobatic moves at my venue
That Billco, he's just getting carried away now... :D

[ducasi]

Hi Guys,

Well that was class numero sette. (That's seven in Italian.)

I've been feeling stressed and was really tired going into the class, so please take this into account before telling me what I do or do not need to do. :tears:

There was a delay at the start due to the new computerised desk, with lots of people not having their card or having to write out their details. I totally understand why this is being done though. (Though a part of me is thinking DPA??? :what: )

Other big difference was a substitute teacher. :D As usual, no names, but it's not going to take a genius to figure out who he was. :wink: Also, we had a different demo who is a familiar sight around these boards. (Hi! Nice demoing!)

The moves... Only "new" one was the comb, though it wasn't really new as I'd done it in a workshop. Or maybe the yo-yo was in some way new, as I think I've always done it with a push spin at the end. Dunno. Anyway, I wonder how many beginner moves are left that I haven't done. :confused:

Again we were in the small hall and it was very crowded. Quite a lot of relatively new starts, and a lot of faces I didn't recognise - a few people had said they'd also been to the Tuesday night class. I might be hooked, but I'm not that bad yet.

I liked our teacher's style. He reminded me a lot of the teacher at the Edinburgh workshop with makes me wonder about Martin Harper's point about "Teaching/dancing persona" (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5074), and David James' suggestion that Ceroc is turning out clones. Hmm... Nah, it's not that bad, they're just two very enthusiastic teachers. Anyway, he was very good and also seemed to be popular with the girls as well. :wink:

During the class he raised a lot of the points that have recently been discussed on the forums. (Hmm... I wonder if he reads them too :wink: )

In the first freestyle danced with a few people. Not so bad. I did dance with someone that a while back I'd turned down. In retrospect I think I was right. :wink: I didn't really enjoy that one. (Sorry if you're reading this. :blush: ) Maybe it was just me.

Into the revision class and met all the new starts - a few of which were truly awful. A few times I've had girls lead the semi-circle and actually lift their hand out of mine. What are they thinking? :what: One poor lady just refused to be led - even during the wee swinging hand bit before the 5,6,7,8... She was determined to do the moves her way, with or without me. :eek:

I wonder if it's possible that some people just can't do modern jive??? And how long it should take you to realise this? A week? A month? 3 months? A year? More? Please, I'd be very interested in replies to this. Perhaps someone might want to start a new thread based on this question?

I guess partly as a result of the late start we didn't seem to get very long for revision and only went over the first move (push spin) and the yo-yo.

Our taxis (maybe after reading Wendy's comments? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5069)) were doing a lot of counting of beats.

After the revision i met a bloke (maybe someone here?) who showed me the pretzel. Wow! It looks so complicated but it really is surprisingly easy. Did it first time! :grin: I tried to get him to show me the half-windmill that I'd seen on the DVD, but he was unsure how it went and our "demo" (a beginner of just a few weeks) had decided she'd had enough of being practised on. :nice:

We tried to borrow a taxi dancer, but she was busy with a new guy who needed her help much more than I did.

Anyway, by that time Wendy's 9.45 boring music cut-off had arrived and the music got a bit too challenging for me, and as I was feeling tired and sore I made my excuses and left.

And that was another week done and dusted.

So, despite all the goading I probably didn't dance any more this week than last. I didn't really get a chance to see how well I was keeping in time with the music or to practice much actual freestyle.

Oh well, there's the workshop on Sunday...

So what did I learn this week... Not that much from the actual class. Maybe I'll take a look at the intermediate class next week. I don't want to try to run before I know I'm walking right. Hmm... Maybe the workshop will have the answers.

To pick up on the discussion that's been going on in my thread (and without my permission too! :angry: :na: ) I can definitely tell you that I was seriously intimidated in the first few weeks by watching "expert" dancers and then them coming to ask me to dance. (And at that stage, everyone who's done more than a few intermediate classes would be an expert to me.) At least for me there was no danger (or there should have been :wink: ) of being led into weird and fancy moves beyond my ken. Think of the poor women! (Think of the children! (http://www.wavsource.com/tv/simpsons/simpsons4.htm) :D)

I really think that if before the intermediate class all the really good dancers could leave us alone unless you want to taxi, that'd make life for the very early beginners a whole lot easier.

But then that's just me, and I do see the argument the other way about needing inspiration and better dancers to dance with the more advanced beginners (like me!)

I guess the answer is that as well as the music needing toned down for beginners, the awesome "leet" skills of some of the more advanced dancers should also be turned down a notch or two.

As ever, thanks and "Hi!"s to all the cool people there that I met and/or danced with. I want to say it was a pleasure. :wink:

Stay tuned for a weekend report after my second workshop!

[bigdjiver]

The half-moon is so called because the follower makes a crecent shape with her legs directly above her head, resting on the leaders hip.


I wonder if it's possible that some people just can't do modern jive??? And how long it should take you to realise this? A week? A month? 3 months? A year? More? I have known people with no sense of rhythm and poor coordination come for several months, they appear to just enjoy the scene, and trying.


To pick up on the discussion that's been going on in my thread (and without my permission too! :angry: :na: ) I can definitely tell you that I was seriously intimidated in the first few weeks by watching "expert" dancers and then them coming to ask me to dance. (And at that stage, everyone who's done more than a few intermediate classes would be an expert to me.) I have decided now to leave the flashy stuff until late. I learn.


I really think that if before the intermediate class all the really good dancers could leave us alone unless you want to taxi, that'd make life for the very early beginners a whole lot easier. But then that's just me, and I do see the argument the other way about needing inspiration and better dancers to dance with the more advanced beginners (like me!)Here I am not convinced. One of the fears of beginners (and beyond) is that nobody wants to dance with them.


I guess the answer is that as well as the music needing toned down for beginners, the awesome "leet" skills of some of the more advanced dancers should also be turned down a notch or two.I am tending to that view.

There are also some intermediates who think, after just a few weeks, that they have seen all there is, and start to look elsewhere for more excitement. I try to spread the news that there is a world beyond the average class night. They are on an extending ladder, there is another one at the top of this.

If we are lucky "Strictly Dance Fever" will do this job for us.

[MartinHarper]

I didn't really enjoy that one.

Oh well. Hopefully she enjoyed it, and you got some good karma out of it. :)


Maybe I'll take a look at the intermediate class next week.

If you like, you can sit out and just watch the intermediate class. If you watch and listen carefully, you'll probably pick up a fair bit - sometimes more than the people doing the class. Also, you can join the intermediate class and drop out if it all becomes too much. Another option is to alternate - take the intermediate class one week, and the beginner revision class the next week - or pick and choose depending on how well you nailed the beginner class.

Anyway, I'm sure your taxi dancers will be able to advise you better than I.

[Gadget]

I tried to get him to show me the half-windmill that I'd seen on the DVD, but he was unsure how it went
If you've got the DVD, you shouldn't need any further advice, but basically you're just swapping hands behind your back as you turn.
The pretzel is fairly easy - I just dislike that hand signal behind the back thing; personally I go from a swizzle position {armjive-swizzle} and duck under that arm infront of you.

If you recognise that most folk beginning are poorer dancers than you, then you are obviously improving. I like the term "advanced beginner" - I think your tag line should be changed :D

[David Bailey]

Advanced dancers can dance to anything.
Except possibly "Kiss Kiss"... :whistle:

[David Bailey]

Excellent summary as always, Ducasi, very interesting.


David James' suggestion that Ceroc is turning out clones.

Well, that's probably a bit strong... I'd say it's more that, especially for beginner's classes, there's a very strict script to follow, so most teachers teaching the same beginners class (e.g. class 4 of 8, or whatever) will say the same things in the same order. That's not necessarily a Bad Thing - standardisation at this level is good - but it does tend to make a lot of teachers difficult to differentiate from a distance :)

I just hope to God they don't have standard jokes in their script book...


I've been dancing years, and I know what a 'layback' is, I can guess at a 'through the legs' and although I know what a ful moon is, I doubt anyone but CJ would do it on the dance floor; I have no idea what a 'half moon' is!
Well I didn't have a clue what those ones were :)
Mind you, I can barely remember what a wurlitzer is most days, brain cells decaying fast...

[Wendy]

Into the revision class and met all the new starts - a few of which were truly awful. :eek: New starts are learning ! You were a new start not so long ago and I hope no-one thought/said that about you !

Wx

[ducasi]

:eek: New starts are learning ! You were a new start not so long ago and I hope no-one thought/said that about you ! Sorry, it seems I'm going to get the reputation of complaining about poor beginners or even worse, poor non-beginners. :sad:

I guess what I'm trying to do is make my own dancing seem better in my head by comparing myself against others whom I perceive as being in some way worse than myself.

If I can convince myself I'm sufficiently better than enough other people then I'll be relatively good. And if I don't feel myself to be relatively good I won't enjoy myself. And then I'll quit.

Sorry, it's just the way I am. :blush: I'll try to moderate my comments in the future.

I really do look forward to watching these beginners improve. :nice:

[TheTramp]

So. Moving on.....

Are we going to be seeing you at the Glasgow freestyle night this Saturday then Ducasi??

[ducasi]

Are we going to be seeing you at the Glasgow freestyle night this Saturday then Ducasi?? Sorry, I don't think so.

I know I should, but I want to be fully rested before the workshop on Sunday, and I'm generally not in a partying mood.

Instead I'm planning on going to the cinema. Any recommendations?

Actually, depending on when I'm out of the cinema, I might drop by after as I've got a DVD to deliver to someone. I wouldn't be staying though.

I'm thinking the charity event on the 30th might see me there. Hope I'll be up for a party by then. Have to get a ticket!

[Wendy]

Sorry, it seems I'm going to get the reputation of complaining about poor beginners or even worse, poor non-beginners. :sad:: Well if you continue to slag them off then yeah !


I guess what I'm trying to do is make my own dancing seem better in my head by comparing myself against others whom I perceive as being in some way worse than myself. . There really is no point comparing yourself to others especially not beginner women as you are playing a different part ! Just relax,(that will help your partner to relax too) listen to the music, try the moves you have learned that night, try to lead them and try to smile. And sometimes the mistakes are the real fun bits anyway :D .


If I can convince myself I'm sufficiently better than enough other people then I'll be relatively good. And if I don't feel myself to be relatively good I won't enjoy myself. And then I'll quit.: Many of the guys who started at the same time as you have not come back so you can only BE relatively good :flower: :waycool: And you can't compare yourself to the guys who ARE there cos in the class you are too busy concentrating on what you are doing (and hopefully what your partner is doing) and in freestyle, the moment you have with your partner is unique and will never be repeated - not by you and not by anyone. This isn't an IQ test or an Arithmetic o-grade - it's dancing. And of course, no-one can compare themselves to you either. So it's really a very safe environment to learn in when you think about it.


I really do look forward to watching these beginners improve. :nice: Enjoy your OWN progress.. but nice try..

Wx

[Chicklet]

I really think that if before the intermediate class all the really good dancers could leave us alone unless you want to taxi, that'd make life for the very early beginners a whole lot easier.

I guess the answer is that as well as the music needing toned down for beginners, the awesome "leet" skills of some of the more advanced dancers should also be turned down a notch or two.


These paragraphs made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up...and this is without understanding what "leet" means.
IMHO, this is very sad, in both strict and slang interpretations of the word.

I take full responsibility for this comment and do not mean it as derogatory to anyone regularly attending Glasgow Uni, but mate, you aint seen NOTHING yet....I am prepared to stick my neck out and suggest that, on the whole, in that fairly cramped environment, you have seen very little, if any, advanced dancing.

This dancing thing is meant to be FUN, and how can you have fun and enjoy it for what it is if you are constantly allowing yourself to be annoyed by what other people are doing? Can't you just be happy for them that they are able to do what they can do???

I really would strongly suggest that you come to the party, where you WILL see some advanced dancing, where people have space and skill to move beautifully...you will also see a lot of people that you have never seen before and MOST of them will be (much) better dancers than you.

Yes they see the difference, yes they feel the difference but would it stop them dancing with you and trying to share the enjoyment of the night, would it hell.

REPEAT - This dancing thing is meant to be FUN, it's not a competition unless people are wearing numbers and sequins and it says competition on the door, if you can't relax and enjoy it for what it is, then maybe you are right and it's not for you, which is a shame.

NB I possibly need to excuse myself from the list of people who would dance with you, I think I would be too scared that I'd see a critique of my wobbly/rotten spinning skills and tendancy to turn at half speed, both of which are well known to many of the men on the "circuit" and don't need to be highlighted on here!

[clevedonboy]

This dancing thing is meant to be FUN, and how can you have fun and enjoy it for what it is if you are constantly allowing yourself to be annoyed by what other people are doing? Can't you just be happy for them that they are able to do what they can do???
...snip...
REPEAT - This dancing thing is meant to be FUN, it's not a competition unless people are wearing numbers and sequins and it says competition on the door, if you can't relax and enjoy it for what it is, then maybe you are right and it's not for you, which is a shame.


:yeah:

First few times I went, I was sure that some people were showing off, now I know that they are - to each other. Dancing is about having fun with the person you are sharing that brief time with.

Using l33t sk1llz is what we are all doing and is not to be ph33r3d - being a n00b doesn't make you a l4m3r. Do what I did - develop p0w3rz of your own by practicing & exploit the fact the most people like a laugh.

[tsh]

Anyway, by that time Wendy's 9.45 boring music cut-off had arrived and the music got a bit too challenging for me, and as I was feeling tired and sore I made my excuses and left.

...

So what did I learn this week... Not that much from the actual class. Maybe I'll take a look at the intermediate class next week. I don't want to try to run before I know I'm walking right. Hmm... Maybe the workshop will have the answers.


If you can't make it through to the end of the night, there's not much point trying the intermediate class... You're unlikely to get much out of it! If you find music challenging, then learning or leading some of the intermediate moves will be far harder.

Sean

[Chicklet]

Using l33t sk1llz is what we are all doing and is not to be ph33r3d - being a n00b doesn't make you a l4m3r. Do what I did - develop p0w3rz of your own by practicing & exploit the fact the most people like a laugh.
I honestly don't understand this sentence, is this the "leet skills"???
Please can someone explain (like they would to their granny maybe?? :blush: )

[David Franklin]

Using l33t sk1llz is what we are all doing and is not to be ph33r3d - being a n00b doesn't make you a l4m3r. Do what I did - develop p0w3rz of your own by practicing & exploit the fact the most people like a laugh.

I honestly don't understand this sentence, is this the "leet skills"???Translation:

Using elite skills is what we are all doing and is not to be feared - being a noob (newbie) doesn't make you a lamer. Do what I did - develop powers of your own by practising and exploit the fact that most people like a laugh.
For more explanation, see the Wiki entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet.

[Franck]

If I can convince myself I'm sufficiently better than enough other people then I'll be relatively good. And if I don't feel myself to be relatively good I won't enjoy myself. And then I'll quit.Well that would be a real shame as you seemed to enjoy yourself on Wednesday :nice:

From reading the advice given to you so far, it looks easy, just relax and enjoy the learning experience rather than waiting for a specific achievement.
If only it were that easy! :wink: When you start learning to dance, it's a lot more challenge and very little reward, and I can see why you want to 'feel' some real progress.

Most people who get 'real' fun / satisfaction out of dancing do so because at some point they had a great dance where everything fell into place (regardless of their level). This is like an adrenalin kick, and will have you grinning for days :grin:
Unfortunately, the best chance you have to have one of those dances is to increase the odds in your favour by dancing a lot. That's why we have a long-ish freestyle, the more dances you have with a variety of partners, the better you get and the more likely you are to hit the jackpot!

Please don't give up just yet, you have come a long way in a short time, and you are that close to epiphany :cheers:

[ducasi]

... meant to be FUN ... Yep, and the fun factor for me is diminishing, both on the dance floor and in this forum. :tears:

I think I've maybe been too honest. I've been coming to this forum and opening up, sharing my feelings about my learning process, maybe saying things that other people were only thinking - I think pretty much everything maybe a bit controversial that I've said, someone else has agreed with it to some degree.

But at the same time I am being criticised for some of my thoughts.

Well I've just been taught once again, honesty is not the best policy. :sad:

I thought people would want to know the negatives as well as the positives. In future I'll just stick to the sharing my positive thoughts.

If I've been too negative about other people's dancing, it's probably because I don't feel too positive about my own.


So, to leave you, some positive thoughts...

In my few weeks of learning I've danced with some wonderful partners, both in the class and freestyle. I'm regularly amazed at how good some dancers are, even after only a few months. Well impressed. :worthy:

I've met dancers who show incredible style, even when they're dancing with a beginner! I've danced with people who were a pleasure to lead, who always followed perfectly, even when I led them into a move to no-where. :blush:

Every dance has been a pleasure in some way or other, and every dancer too. :flower:


(Just saw your post Franck... Thanks for your comments. :cheers: I'm not ready to give up yet!)

[TheTramp]

That's why we have a long-ish freestyle ~snip~ and you are that close to epiphany :cheers:
Huh?!?

I thought that the freestyle was at the Henry Wood Hall? Where is Epiphany anyhow??

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think I've maybe been too honest. I've been coming to this forum and opening up, sharing my feelings about my learning process, maybe saying things that other people were only thinkingPlease, don't ever, ever, fall into the trap of assuming that you speak for anyone other than yourself. People who do that sound terribly pompous and overblown. Your feelings are yours alone, and I at least am very pleased to read on that basis.
- I think pretty much everything maybe a bit controversial that I've said, someone else has agreed with it to some degree.Well of course, what did you expect? (Did you mean disagreed, by the way?) Anyhow, that's the Forum for you. Everyone has a turn at being a target now and then. It's good for you.
But at the same time I am being criticised for some of my thoughts.Only the ones you think are valuable and take the time and trouble to put into writing in a public place.

Well I've just been taught once again, honesty is not the best policy. :sad:
I thought people would want to know the negatives as well as the positives. In future I'll just stick to the sharing my positive thoughts.Do you really want to hear "Yes, Ducasi, we all agree with you" every time? Wouldn't that be a bit dull? If you think everyone at your local venue dances like the rear end of a pantomime donkey then I think you should say so, and stuff what anyone else says back. You're entitled to your opinion.

[TheTramp]

Do you really want to hear "Yes, Ducasi, we all agree with you" every time? Wouldn't that be a bit dull? If you think everyone at your local venue dances like the rear end of a pantomime donkey then I think you should say so, and stuff what anyone else says back. You're entitled to your opinion.
Uh huh. Quite agree. Of course, if you say controversial things, then you have to expect people to disagree with you (or even when saying non-controversial things). Doesn't mean that we think any less of you as a person. And it's nice to have stimulating discussion sometimes (at least, when Andy's not around :whistle: )

[ducasi]

Please, don't ever, ever, fall into the trap of assuming that you speak for anyone other than yourself. ...

{snip!}

... (Did you mean disagreed, by the way?) No, I don't assume that I speak for anyone other than myself, but - here's the point I was making - some people agreed with me, suggesting that maybe I really was speaking other people's thoughts.

[David Bailey]

No, I don't assume that I speak for anyone other than myself, but - here's the point I was making - some people agreed with me, suggesting that maybe I really was speaking other people's thoughts.

Honestly, don't let this stuff worry you. Certain people (including me) will take offense or be offensive, will agree or disagree, will support or contradict. That's why it's called a forum and not an echo...

Having said that, I appreciate your "impressions" diary entries, they're interesting to read, and I'd like to see more of it, it's very helpful to me to remember what it was like as a beginner - shame there's no follower equivalent of you :)

I also wouldn't worry about your development pace; it took me many months to get comfortable with freestyle - hell, I was being told to "smile a bit, for goodness sake" several years into dancing. It then took me some more time to realize what all this "style" stuff was (arguably I still don't know!). And that's having done a bit of structured dancing beforehand....

Learning partner dancing takes, well, forever - as ESG has said, if you don't enjoy the learning process, you're in trouble because even freestyle nights teach you something. OK, they may teach you who not to dance with, but even so... :)

[Wendy]

I'm confused.. I thought you were getting oodles of support on here and at classes ?????

Personally, I gave you a bit of stick cos I felt you were being a little hard on beginners and indirectly that only shows that I would also be protective of you ! :flower:

Exposing your thoughts in a public forum is very brave and I really admire you for that. And indeed, dancing in public is even braver. (and maybe even more so for a guy!) There are risks involved in anything worthwhile... and part of the risk with this forum (and dance thing) is that sometimes you have to take some knocks and get things wrong in front of everyone it must seem. The ceroc world is a big Walton family.. and sometimes you get lots of support and sometimes you get brought back to earth with a bang and rightly so.

On balance, I think you have a had a lot more support than critism (can't think of a good opposite to support.. arrghh!!!). But only YOU can be the judge of that and decide if it's worth it or not. If not, fine - but I think you'll find that anything you undertake will involve taking brave steps - unless you decide to not live your life to the full.

IMO you really have little to lose and so much to gain. And we have all been where you are now and we all have much further to go.

Wx

[ducasi]

I'm confused.. I thought you were getting oodles of support on here and at classes ????? Indeed I have. Thanks everybody for all of your support. :flower: :hug:

I'm just not sure how much it's helping. :tears:

I'm also getting criticised (w.r.t the classes) for not dancing more in the freestyle, and (w.r.t the forums) for being critical of some of the dancers.

So, I'm doing something about it. I'm going to try to dance more. And I'm going to try to criticise less. Isn't that what you want? :nice:

I'm not about to quit - not yet, but here's something I just did that you can try for yourself - read over my last report (this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=114701&postcount=212)) and compare it to my first one (these (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=107597&postcount=1) three (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=107743&postcount=25) posts (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108091&postcount=33).) Am I enjoying it as much as I did when I started?

(Another wee exercise - can you see that the things I am worried about now, I had perceived as potential problems for me right from the start?)

So doubts creep into my mind now and then, but I am still enjoying it - for the moment. I just don't know how long I will need to stick at it before either the epiphany happens or my enthusiasm runs out.


Maybe I've just had a bad week. :sad:

[Gadget]

I just don't know how long I will need to stick at it before either the epiphany happens or my enthusiasm runs out.
:confused: Your having fun - yes? What's the point in putting a damper on it by looking for the end of this fun? Can't you just enjoy it while it's here and see what develops?
To me it sounds like you are preparing the groundwork so that if you find in six months you are no better, you can look and point to say "See - told you!" {... erm, just realised you have already half done that in the above post.}

Size the carp! Seize the fish! Kill the fish! Carpe diem!

[Magic Hans]

Whatever the goal we're pursuing
No matter how rugged the climb
We're sure to get there by doing our best
And taking one step a time

Forever is hard to imagine
The future may seem far away
But every new dawn brings a wonderful chance
To do what we can on that day

As we reach for those goals that we want to achieve
May we find all the strength that we need
To meet every challenge, on step at a time
'Till the day that we proudly succeed! [anon]


A few retorts/hints/tips/thoughts

I feel how I feel, and don't give a ***** ****** what anyone thinks about it. That's how I strongly feel, and noone can take that away from me. I invite others to do the same. [excuse the **** strong language .... and random number of ***s!!]

Many in our culture have a tendency to overfocus on negatives and underfocus on positive - hence the popular Ozzie term about whinging poms. [Edit] Note: This cuts both ways! It may be that my peers are complimenting more than criticising, and I see only the criticism!! Or that my peers really are criticising more that complimenting.

It is brave to expose our true feelings to the world (or a forum). Although healthy it opens us up to be feeling hurt by others opinions/judgements.

Fairly early on, the main pleasure that I got, was find a great raport with some of the girls I danced with. Doesn't happen all the time, sadly. Gradually I got a little bored of the one venue that I went to, and found that going to other venues, and (especially) weekenders, really and truly made the difference ..... as well as taking the occasional 2-4 week break.

Hope this helps!

Take care .... Ian

[Lynn]

So doubts creep into my mind now and then, but I am still enjoying it - for the moment. I just don't know how long I will need to stick at it before either the epiphany happens or my enthusiasm runs out.

Maybe I've just had a bad week. :sad: Probably, and you might even have a few in a row, but that happens - well it did for me.

Thinking back - first lesson, great! Second lesson, starting to get frustrated that I wasn't getting it right (I think it was the spinning, about time I sorted that out!). Had a nice dance with Will after the class and felt better about it. Had 2 beginner lessons on holiday in total (enough to hook me!)

Back in NI - about week 5, I began again to get frustrated and felt I had hit a plateau - though I had joined the forum by that stage and it was opening up a world of information on style, musicality etc which were probably beyond my grasp at that stage. Went to London, did my first intermediate class and had several nice dances and felt better.

My point is you will get evenings where you feel you have learnt very little or nothing (though you will have probably learnt something even if you feel you didn't), and evenings where you feel like you will never get any better. And sometimes all it takes is to have one nice dance, where it (mostly) goes right and its great again. So maybe go along to a party night and don't worry about learning much, just try and relax and enjoy yourself.

And don't give up just because you can see yourself not progressing as fast as you maybe did at first. You will hit plateaus and will then go up another learning curve and so on (well that's how it works for me!). There is always something new to learn - one of the things I love about dancing!

[TheTramp]

So, I'm doing something about it. I'm going to try to dance more.
See you later on then. Henry Wood Hall. 8pm!!

[MartinHarper]

I'm also getting criticised [...] for being critical of some of the dancers.

Folks on this forum are often critical of their fellow dancers - cf rants about "yankers", "pervs", "stinkers", "bouncers", "stompers", "grippers", "gropers", "bulldozers", "backleaders", "droppers", "hotshots", rude people, people who are out of time, people who do other dances, people who dance on crowded dance floors, people who do competitions, and so forth.
(and that's before we start on the DJs and teachers...)

The things you've been saying are not wildly out of place, and express more tolerance than some other comments. Worry not.

[ducasi]

See you later on then. Henry Wood Hall. 8pm!! Hey, did you see me? I was there at about half nine - for about two minutes! :D

I wasn't there to dance though, I was just passing by. Coming away from it though, I did feel a pang of regret. But, can I say.. "wow! lots of people!" :waycool:

I'm going to bed soon so I can be fresh for the workshop in the morning.

Sweet dreams! :nice:

[TheTramp]

Hey, did you see me? I was there at about half nine - for about two minutes! :D

Sweet dreams! :nice:
Nope. Missed you! Maybe next month!! :D

Just got home from dancing. Via the noodle bar, and Stirling services for a double espresso.

Good night!! (Both in the heading to bed, and the enjoyment of the evening sense)

[bigdjiver]

Hey, did you see me? I was there at about half nine - for about two minutes! :D

I wasn't there to dance though, ...Only been doing it for a few weeks, and already you have achieved the goal which some suggest for me ....

[Wendy]

And two minutes was all the time you had to impress the judges at the Strictly Dance Fever auditions !!!! And as they kept saying " It could change your life" !!!

Maybe you have this secret James Bond lifestyle which prevents you coming on Tuesdays and staying for 4 minutes on Saturday night.. and this shy, insecure exterior is just a ploy to keep us in the dark so the Russians don't find you.... mmmmmm... very interesting Mr Bond.. stroking my emm.. cat !!!!

Wx

[ducasi]

Maybe you have this secret James Bond lifestyle which prevents you coming on Tuesdays and staying for 4 minutes on Saturday night.. and this shy, insecure exterior is just a ploy to keep us in the dark so the Russians don't find you.... mmmmmm... very interesting Mr Bond.. stroking my emm.. cat !!!! You're found me out! Tuesdays is spy training and yesterday I was just back from a secret mission to the Sahara and on my way to another at a secret location in the West End.

I'm going to have to kill you now. And everyone who's read that message... And this message too, I guess! Maybe I can use some mass hypnosis trick. Please stare at the image below for five minutes repeating this phrase to yourself "Ducasi is just a shy beginner, not a spy"!

Anyway, it's not the Russians I'm trying to avoid. It's all the dancers I've been slagging off! :wink:

I actually tried to say hello to you last night - I saw you near the entrance to the main hall, but by the time I got there, you'd gone. Sorry I missed you, and all the others.

I'll be there next time, promise!

[Wendy]

Ducasi is just a shy beginner, not a spy....Ducasi is just a shy beginner, not a spy......Ducasi is just a shy beginner, not a spy....

Hey that thing works !!!! :eek:

Wx

[bigdjiver]

If it helps. my local Gizmo shop is selling a "Spy Calculator", which is a calculator with an inbuilt wireless microphone, for only £14.99.

One slight flaw - it says in big letters above the display "Spy Calculator".

[ducasi]

Hi Guys,

I'm just back from my second beginners' workshop, and I'm guessing some of you would like to know how it went...

It was good. Like the first one, I'm not sure how much I tangibly learnt - in that all the moves were familiar, but I still think it was a valuable experience for confidence building.

The were 10 beginners - 4 guys, 6 girls - plus the teacher and her demo. I probably had the most experience of the beginners except for one lady who had done a bit of ceroc a while ago and was just in need of getting back up to speed. She was also keeping a real newcomer company.

The standard format of moves in the morning, and putting them together in the afternoon was followed. Maybe it was because of the lower numbers, or more likely it's just easier with a lady teacher, but in this workshop the girls had much more time given to them to work on their movement, spins, and such. We (the guys) were also given exercises to do to help us move ourselves in time with the music and in sympathy with our partner.

It was all fairly straightforward.

The other beginners were fairly mixed standards, but there's none of them I would complain about, even if I were allowed to. :wink: One beginner whom I've mentioned before - who had problems allowing the guy to lead even the semicircle - was a lot better today.

Another lady really impressed me with her spins which had really sharpened up very quickly after some guidance from the teacher. It was really good seeing the improvement in pretty much all the girls through the day. (It's hard to comment on how well the guys were doing.)

I enjoyed my brief dances with the teacher - she liked to do double spins off my catapult which surprised me a little, but I guess she thought I could handle them.

I still have the same problems that frustrate me so much though - I sometimes forget what I'm doing during repeats of a set routine, and I sometimes get confused when I'm trying to do simple freestyling and end up stuck.

I think there's two things going on here.

Where I should know what I'm doing next, either because it's a routine or because I'd already figured out what I was going to do next, I'm blanking. My new theory on this is that I'm too busy enjoying myself, or thinking about something else, like listening to the music or the teacher, and what I should be thinking about just gets lost. (It's a bit like that advert for some magazine where the woman forgets to step off the escalator as she's so engrossed by the latest gossip, and falls flat on her face.)

The other thing is that I've planned a move, everything's going swimmingly, but somehow I'm on the wrong hand. (A catapult isn't quite so easy off the left hand!) This is probably just a special case of the first problem where I just haven't been paying enough attention during the last spin or whatever to use the right hand. (I've getting very good at changing hands after turns!!!)

After the class I had a very useful chat with the teacher. She gave me some tips about what to do in these situations. She also told me I'm a good dancer. I was really flattered. :blush:

I don't imagine she meant I'm ready to enter any competitions or anything like that :wink:, but good for where I am in the learning process.

While she was showing me a few things, she had me dance the girl's part once or twice. That was weird, but in a cool way. :waycool: Here I am, just a beginner and I'm now learning how to follow as well as lead!

I wanted to ask her about my leading skills - one girl had said it was really good dancing with me (compared to some of the other guys) as I gave such a good lead. The teacher agreed with the point of view given by someone else that I'm fairly good in my leading, though I could make it a little stronger.

I think part of that is a confidence thing, which was the key thing that she (and many people here) have said I need more of. And of course she said the best way to improve my confidence was to dance more.

She does think I'm ready for the intermediate classes though. Does this mean I'm going to have to start a new thread in the "Intermediate Corner" called "First-time Intermediate Impressions"? :grin:

Once again, I must thank everybody - the other dancers, the poor demo who had to dance as a woman quite a bit - including once with me( :eek: ), but most of all, our fantastic teacher.

Thanks guys! :clap: :worthy: :cheers:

[bigdjiver]

...I still have the same problems that frustrate me so much though - I sometimes forget what I'm doing during repeats of a set routine, and I sometimes get confused when I'm trying to do simple freestyling and end up stuck.

I think there's two things going on here.

Where I should know what I'm doing next, either because it's a routine or because I'd already figured out what I was going to do next, I'm blanking. My new theory on this is that I'm too busy enjoying myself, or thinking about something else, like listening to the music or the teacher, and what I should be thinking about just gets lost. (It's a bit like that advert for some magazine where the woman forgets to step off the escalator as she's so engrossed by the latest gossip, and falls flat on her face.)...You are going through the transition from concious detailed control to "muscle memory", and are occasionally getting lost between the two. You just need more practice doing things right and it will all fall into place.

[Piglet]

She does think I'm ready for the intermediate classes though. Does this mean I'm going to have to start a new thread in the "Intermediate Corner" called "First-time Intermediate Impressions"? :grin:



Go for it Ducasi! Great news!

Can't wait for your new thread!

I remember wondering what the heck had I let myself in for during my first intermediate class, but the second one was better, and the third....

Maybe someone has suggested this before but have you thought of where you stand in the line up? Okay, a good view of the stage is a prerequisite, but I'd also imagine that near the end of the line (where the ladies come off before they join on again) would be a good place because the chances are your follower will have a good idea of what she's doing before she gets to you... of course, you might prefer the challenge of being at the beginning of the line.......

:flower: Seriously - many congrats for stepping up to your intermediate challenge

Pamela :hug:

[ducasi]

Go for it Ducasi! Great news!

Can't wait for your new thread! Thanks! :nice:

... Maybe someone has suggested this before but have you thought of where you stand in the line up? I had never given it much thought.

I normally like to stand near the front, to the right looking from the stage. This gives me the best view without having to look round too much. This is the last row of guys before a girl goes back to the end of the queue. So, yes, I guess this means I will usually get to dance with someone who may have a clue what she's doing. Lucky me! :wink:

I had never really considered this. What do other men think?

What I do know is that girl's don't like starting in this row as they go off the floor sooner. :tears:

Cheers Piglet!

[David Bailey]

Where I should know what I'm doing next, either because it's a routine or because I'd already figured out what I was going to do next, I'm blanking.

Same for everyone - that's why we have filler moves. I don't know if this has been covered recently, but lots (all?) leaders have favourite "here's something to do whilst I try to think of what to do next" moves. An example would be the Comb, or better, the Slow Comb (better as it gives more time to think). 1 left-handed filler and 1 right-handed filler move would be useful. You could even have a two-handed move (arm jive?) to complete the set... There must be a "filler moves" thread or ten somewhere, I'll leave that to others to identify :)



The other thing is that I've planned a move, everything's going swimmingly, but somehow I'm on the wrong hand. (A catapult isn't quite so easy off the left hand!) This is probably just a special case of the first problem where I just haven't been paying enough attention during the last spin or whatever to use the right hand. (I've getting very good at changing hands after turns!!!)

Again, same for everyone - again, I'd recommend you have a standard R-to-L and L-to-R move (anything really, manspin, Comb of course :) ) to use in this case. It's always nicer to use a move to swap hands than to just let go of one hand and grab the other.



She does think I'm ready for the intermediate classes though. Does this mean I'm going to have to start a new thread in the "Intermediate Corner" called "First-time Intermediate Impressions"? :grin:
Hell, yes - Intermediate Corner needs more entries :clap:

Lastly, I'd recommend being a little more cautious about comparisons and judgements of dancing abilities of yourself and of other people, even anonymously. (Hell, I'm usually cautious about overtly complimenting someone - maybe I'm just cautious...). I know it's difficult when you're learning, but something to maybe consider. Always worth remembering, it's the Internet, anyone can and will see this stuff. Although you may have got that one by now :)

Excellent entries though, very interesting reading!

Oh, yes and:

mmmmmm... very interesting Mr Bond
I thought Little Monkey was the Evil Villain (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=113242&postcount=52) - don't tell me there are two of you? :eek:

[David Bailey]

I had never really considered this.

Me neither!



What do other men think?

Stand wherever you feel most comfortable, as long as you can clearly see and hear the teacher. Apart from that, I don't think it makes any difference, people move on so frequently anyway...

[Tiggerbabe]

She also told me I'm a good dancer. I was really flattered. :blush:

I don't imagine she meant I'm ready to enter any competitions or anything like that :wink:, but good for where I am in the learning process.

/snip/.................. And of course she said the best way to improve my confidence was to dance more.

Glad you enjoyed your workshop Ducasi and I hope this means that next time I'm in Glasgow you might ask me to dance :hug:

I've really enjoyed reading about your progress so far and look forward to the next instalments. :D

[Lory]

She does think I'm ready for the intermediate classes though. Does this mean I'm going to have to start a new thread in the "Intermediate Corner" called "First-time Intermediate Impressions"? :grin:


Well done, sounds like your progressing nicely!

Before you stay for your first intermediate lesson, I'd like to pass on something that someone said to me when I made the transition and I found it really helpful...

Firstly, just think of one intermediate move as being equal to two beginners moves, this helps you get over that initial 'OMG I can't take this all in' and don't feel pressured to stay for the whole lesson, maybe just do one move and feel happy with that for a while! (so you might want to position your self at the end, so you can drop out without causing too much distruption)

As you gradually build up to more moves, don't think that you 'have' to remember all of them, just remember one that you like each week :waycool: and then make sure you add it to every dance that evening in freestyle, then you'll have a good chance of remembering it!

If you try to remember them all, you'll probably end up remembering none! :rolleyes:

Good luck and I'm looking forward to hearing how you get on! :cheers:

[Graham]

the poor demo who had to dance as a woman quite a bit
Actually you were doing him a favour - he secretly yearns for such moments. :wink:

[spindr]

[Kung-fu mode on]
Grasshopper: Master, I went for a run today -- and I overtook another runner on the road -- am I not now greater than them?

Master: Ah grasshopper, did you see where they started from?

Grasshopper: No master.

Master: Ah grasshopper, did you see where they finished?

Grasshopper: No master.

Master: Perhaps they are still running their marathon, while you have already finished your sprint?
[/Kung-fu mode on]

You start as a non-dancer.
You go to the beginners' class. Have fun!
You leave as a beginner.
Maybe you go to the improvers' class? Have fun! :)

SpinDr.

[Wendy]

I thought Little Monkey was the Evil Villain (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=113242&postcount=52) - don't tell me there are two of you? :eek: Imagine Double Trouble with the pair of us ?? No-one would live to tell the tale !!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: maybe I should save that that for the Intermediate corner.. although I'm still a little scared to post in there... :innocent:

Wxxx

[Wendy]

Congratulations Ducasi !

The more you learn the more you realise there is so much more to learn but you can a have a great time along the way. :flower:

Jeez I managed to follow a bit today, so there is hope for all of us !!!!! :D

Wxxx

[Stuart M]

After the class I had a very useful chat with the teacher. She gave me some tips about what to do in these situations. She also told me I'm a good dancer. I was really flattered. :blush:
A lot of being a good dancer is confidence. A lot of being a bad dancer is over-confidence. I think the mindset which says "OK, I can do this, but I can always learn how to do it better" would be a good one to have. Personally I picked up on a couple of things myself from the workshop, and that's after 5 years dancing :eek:


Once again, I must thank everybody - the other dancers, the poor demo who had to dance as a woman quite a bit - including once with me( :eek: ), but most of all, our fantastic teacher.
I can remember the first time I did a catapult as a follow - freaked me out! From my very limited knowledge of how to follow, I thought you were doing well, and I think everyone improved noticeably as the day went on - well, exceping my ability to remember a three-move routine, that is :blush:

[MartinHarper]

Aye - confidence is so important (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4744).

[David Bailey]

A lot of being a good dancer is confidence. A lot of being a bad dancer is over-confidence.
:yeah: I think you've hit the nail on the head there, nicely put. I think it applies at all levels, not just beginners. Over-confidence / arrogance is easy to get to when you achieve a certain level. The mark of a truly great dancer, as people have said before, is to be always willing to learn / adapt, when dancing with any partner.

Having said that, you need a certain level of self-confidence, as a leader or follower, to be able to do your own thing and add your own style. It's a fine line, and I think this explains to me why some intermediate dancers get too confident, too quickly. I don't think Ducasi's one of those people however :)

[ducasi]

A lot of being a good dancer is confidence. A lot of being a bad dancer is over-confidence. I think the mindset which says "OK, I can do this, but I can always learn how to do it better" would be a good one to have. Confidence is the thing I'm trying to work on. I don't think there's a big danger of over-confidence just yet. :grin:

Personally I picked up on a couple of things myself from the workshop, and that's after 5 years dancing :eek: Don't get me wrong, I think I learnt a lot from the workshop, but mostly things that I just sort-of absorbed over the day without me actually being able to point and say "yes, I learnt that at the workshop."

I can remember the first time I did a catapult as a follow - freaked me out! I haven't had that pleasure yet, but I certainly find the idea of learning to be a follower intriguing. And that's what brought me to Ceroc in the first place. :grin:

From my very limited knowledge of how to follow, I thought you were doing well, and I think everyone improved noticeably as the day went on - well, exceping my ability to remember a three-move routine, that is :blush: Thanks Stuart! :nice: It was a good day. It's also nice to know I'm not the only person who has trouble remembering three-move routines. :wink:

[Bigger Andy]

I certainly find the idea of learning to be a follower intriguing. And that's what brought me to Ceroc in the first place. :grin:



I'm interested by the above comment. Did you actually want to learn to dance as a follower ?

If so, you could check out the thread entitled "Dancing as a woman" (sorry, but I don't know how to add a link to another thread).

If you didn't want to learn to dance as a follower, I don't understand the comment.

And why Ceroc ? Is it easier to learn to dance MJ as a follower than other dance styles ?

Please elaborate !

[MartinHarper]

For Andy:
Dancing as a woman (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3741).

[ducasi]

I'm interested by the above comment. Did you actually want to learn to dance as a follower ?

{snip!}

Please elaborate ! Sorry, I should have taken more care to make myself clear. :blush:

I found Ceroc intriguing - that's what made me try it out. Dancing as a follower also has an intriguing quality.

That's all I meant. :nice:

[ducasi]

One thing I've been meaning to raise for a while...

What do people think of private lessons?

Do you think they would help me?

Have you had any? Was it useful to you? Were you a beginner?

Because this may be a delicate subject, please send me a PM if you don't want to speak publicly.

[David Bailey]

What do people think of private lessons?
Do you think they would help me?
Have you had any?

I think they can be useful.

Private lessons will always help you to a degree, but they're expensive, up to £50 an hour. Also, you need a clear idea of what you want out of them: more moves? Style corrections? Lead / follow instructions? Interpretations?

I haven't had any, but I've helped out with a few, and one thing I know is that they're no substitute for going out and dancing a lot. They're supplementary to classes / freestyles, not replacements.

One other comment. I admire your commitment and drive, but don't lose sight of the fact that you're supposed to, you know, enjoy yourself. You're still a beginner, you've got time, chill out a bit; I'm sure you're progressing fine. And if you just want to improve your dancing, you're probably doing the wrong dance - MJ is not really the best dancing-learning environment, it's just the most fun (my biased opinion :) ).

[Graham]

What do people think of private lessons?

Do you think they would help me?

Have you had any? Was it useful to you? Were you a beginner?
Private lessons are good because they are tailored to you as an individual, and will usually maximise the amount learned in the time, compared to standard classes or workshops. However this comes at a price - they are much more expensive.

I have had some private lessons and found them extremely useful. My first one was when I'd been dancing about two and a half years.

I think you should bear in mind that individual tuition is already available to beginners (or indeed anyone who asks, time permitting) for free, in the form of the taxi dancers. You may already be dancing with the female taxi dancers and getting feedback, but remember that the male taxi dancers are also available to answer questions, or to help you with moves, or even to watch you dancing. Very few people really make full use of the taxis - we're not just there to dance with new people (although if there are a lot of them on one particular night we may not have time to deal with other people).

[David Bailey]

remember that the male taxi dancers are also available to answer questions, or to help you with moves, or even to watch you dancing. Very few people really make full use of the taxis - we're not just there to dance with new people (although if there are a lot of them on one particular night we may not have time to deal with other people).
Excellent point - I also imagine the male taxis may quite like to give this level of tuition, makes a nice change from just dancing with new people, and we all like to show off our knowledge of course :)

[tsh]

And if you just want to improve your dancing, you're probably doing the wrong dance - MJ is not really the best dancing-learning environment, it's just the most fun (my biased opinion :) ).

I'd agree with this. To start with, not really needing to be able to lead makes MJ easy to get going with, but a different style where you are typically taught in a series of classes, and the techniques are covered in much more detail, might help. My MJ leading seems to have become easier to follow after after 4 months of lindy - but I still can't actually dance lindy outside of a class!

I'm sure some people can become excelent MJ dancers without learning other styles though!

Sean

[David Bailey]

I'm sure some people can become excelent MJ dancers without learning other styles though!
Sure, but it'll take longer :)

[Gus]

And if you just want to improve your dancing, you're probably doing the wrong dance - MJ is not really the best dancing-learning environment, it's just the most fun (my biased opinion :) ).Intersting statement. Some of the better dancers in the North West have only done MJ (myself included) ... doesn't seem to have harmed us none. Those that have come from a more 'structured' backgruond have spent FAR longer in that environment than we have in MJ. :whistle:

[ducasi]

Hi everybody!

Well tonight I did my first Intermediate class! Woo!!!!

And although I didn't do too bad (if I say so myself :D) I don't think I'm quite ready to drop the handle of "advanced beginner". :nice:

But I'm rushing ahead! The night begins with the beginners' class.

This was quite good. You know, it's funny but I'm not sure I can remember the moves we did... Let's see... catapult, back-pass, first move (I think?), then side-to-side (let go). Someone correct me if I'm wrong. :blush:

I really like both the catapult and the side-to-side let go - they're fun! :D

During the first freestyle I (you'll be glad to hear) danced most of the time. I went to grab some water during the first track, and might have been back for some more later, but the rest of the time I think I was dancing. It's all a bit of a blur. :confused:

Overall I think it didn't go too bad. There were probably fewer times when I was stuck for something to do next, though it did happen a few times.

But more of that later - let's get onto the meat... The intermediate class.

I had hoped that maybe our fabby teacher might have chosen a slightly easier routine knowing that I might be there. :flower: No such luck! :tears:

I can't remember all the different moves we did but I'll try to describe them and I'd appreciate if someone who was there might clue me in.

So here we go...

Basket something unwrap?? You go into a basket but you let go left and unwrap the lady round to behind where you were, then you spin her back across behind you. This wasn't so bad. I could pretty-much do this one.
First move something something?? Start with a first move but turn round to face lady and turn (spin?) her, then bring her round into a bit of a dip (or was it a lean??) back up and step back.
We stuck an Octopus in here to give us a break before going into the next move...
No idea what this is called. It starts with a basket-style wrap, but then you walk round the lady doing clever things with your arms so that she end up facing away from you at which point you can unwrap her round acw for one and a half turns. I initially had trouble with this move, as I think many people did - so I didn't feel so bad. The teacher said that for people just starting out as intermediates it's quite a tricky move to do. I think I got it in the end though. :) And this is one cool move, btw, definitely one to keep. :waycool:
We finished off with a slow man spin I think. Not good at slow. Not good at the spin at the end of this move either.

And that was it! Watching the general carnage around me from time to time it was good to know I wasn't the only one struggling with some of the moves. In the end though, I think most people got it.

I struggled in a few places...

Between the first two moves somehow I was meant to get the lady into a first-move hold without allowing the step-back, step-in bit. Never quite got this.
The lean/dip thing. The main problem here wasn't so-much the actual dip (which I didn't have much of a clue about,) it was all the stuff just before that that meant I was rarely ready for it. :eek:
The slow man spin - never really knew what I was doing through the slow part of this move. Didn't really figure out how to switch hands to hold with the right while the lady walked round me. :confused: :sad:

And then it was over!!! Relief!!! :clap: :wink:

After, into the freestyle, I probably danced maybe as much as during the first one. Again, bit of a blur. My first dance was with a girl who had just the week before done her first intermediate as the lead. She had gone back to following this week - she said it was easier. :D It went quite well - we tried to do the routine a few times, but then I fell back on my trusty collection of beginner moves, throwing in one or two of the moves I could do from the intermediate class occasionally. I probably danced another 5 or 6 songs, maybe with four different partners, again, mixing mainly beginner moves with the odd (very odd?) extra fancy move.

I had a great time, though it wasn't in any sense effortless. There were a few things that kept tripping me up (metaphorically speaking! :na: ) beyond my usual issues of losing the place mid-dance.

I found that often my yo-yo would go wrong with the girl letting go and spinning rather than stopping for me to pull her back round. I tried a stronger grip - this seemed to help! :nice:

I also found more than one partner misinterpreting a standard return as maybe a travelling return or even the start of a catapult (or who knows???). I'm not entirely sure what was going wrong, and so I've no idea why this was happening. I thought my returns should have been fairly well led by now. Maybe it was because the move the girl thought she was being led into was more natural at that point. I really don't know. :confused:

I was pretty beat by this stage, and so based on the old adage, "always leave 'em wanting more," I left before I had managed to dance with everyone that I had promised dances to (or that I had wanted to dance with.) There's always next week!

So, overall, a good night. Beginners' class went reasonably smoothly. I went to my first intermediate class and managed to get through it - and learn some moves. I danced a whole lot more than previous weeks. I danced with some people I hadn't before, whom I'll hopefully be able to dance with again. I met some of the folks from the workshop, danced with a few and enjoyed the feeling of a shared experience.

I don't know if I impressed anyone else, but I've impressed myself. :grin:

So once again, thanks to all the ladies I had the pleasure to dance with, (and I don't think there were any where it wasn't a pleasure!) Respect to the DJ - played some great tunes, (some of which I can even remember this week!) And thanks to the teacher and taxi dancers - you guys rule.

Cheers!

PS> like my new signature? :wink:

[Lynn]

Glad to hear you had a good night and got through your first intermediate class! :clap: I think what Lory said earlier in the thread is the best thing to do with intermediate classes (certainly at first) - just try to remember one move that you really liked and dance it a lot in the freestyle that night, then you will remember it and can use it other weeks.

[TheTramp]

I think that he's hooked.... :D

That sounded a lot more positive than some of your postings. Congratulations!

[bigdjiver]

... No idea what this is called. It starts with a basket-style wrap, but then you walk round the lady doing clever things with your arms so that she end up facing away from you at which point you can unwrap her round acw for one and a half turns. I initially had trouble with this move, as I think many people did - so I didn't feel so bad. The teacher said that for people just starting out as intermediates it's quite a tricky move to do. I think I got it in the end though. :) And this is one cool move, btw, definitely one to keep. :waycool:This sounds like what I call the "Basket walk-around with swizzle". I like doing this with beginners, even first timers, because it gives me the opportunity to chat with the lady and gives me good control. This means that the lady does not have to think much about what she is doing, and can chat back. She is learning to follow. A common chat line is
"You did not know that you knew this move, did you?".
"But I don't. It's my first time."
"But you are doing it aren't you?"
Then follows the mini-lecture on Ceroc being a lead and follow dance, and how well she is following, and how quickly she is going to pick this up...

[ducasi]

I think that he's hooked.... :D

That sounded a lot more positive than some of your postings. Congratulations! If truth be told, I was probably hooked from day 1 - I've just been in denial all this time. :blush: :wink:

Cheers!

[David Bailey]

Intersting statement. Some of the better dancers in the North West have only done MJ (myself included) ... doesn't seem to have harmed us none. Those that have come from a more 'structured' backgruond have spent FAR longer in that environment than we have in MJ. :whistle:
Sure, no disrespect intended, Oh Great Gus Of The North :)
I just meant that, because of the way that MJ is typically taught (no footwork, no posture, no interpretation - the stuff we all whinge about all the time in various threads), it's not so easy to pick up those areas and disciplines from only doing MJ classes. You've got to work harder at it, or it may take longer to achieve naturally.
It's just the flipside of the "easy start" benefit of MJ - dances such as Argentinian Tango are much harder to get started with, because they focus on those areas as much as on the "moves", and so have a much steeper learning curve. Much more learning, much less fun, basically - and a higher dropout rate of course.

[ducasi]

Glad to hear you had a good night and got through your first intermediate class! :clap: Cheers Lynn!

I think what Lory said earlier in the thread is the best thing to do with intermediate classes (certainly at first) - just try to remember one move that you really liked and dance it a lot in the freestyle that night, then you will remember it and can use it other weeks. Yep, that's a good idea. No prizes for guessing which one I'll be remembering. :D

Thanks Lory and Lynn! :hug:

[ducasi]

This sounds like what I call the "Basket walk-around with swizzle"... Maybe - I think it was a basket something, and there was a walk around... The bit at the end didn't resemble the swizzle in the arm-jive swizzle though - should it?

What makes a swizzle a swizzle? (Does the swizzle have a Zen nature? :wink: )

[bigdjiver]

Maybe - I think it was a basket something, and there was a walk around... The bit at the end didn't resemble the swizzle in the arm-jive swizzle though - should it?

What makes a swizzle a swizzle? (Does the swizzle have a Zen nature? :wink: )I am probably identifying part 2 wrongly then. The comboI do goes from the basket postion into the arm jive swizzle position, and walk around from there.

That arm jive swizzle position is very useful for beginners. It is possible just to step backwards and forwards in time to the music, which once again gives the opportunity for chat without either partner having todo any thinking about the steps.

[MartinHarper]

I also found more than one partner misinterpreting a standard return as maybe a travelling return

That's common enough. It can be a follower problem - inability to spin on the spot.
It can also be a lead problem, where I inadvertantly lead my partner to travel forwards during the return. If I consider where my hand moves during a return, it's going in some sort of spiralling circle, and the very start of that spiral is moving towards me. If I make this portion of the spiral too long, that's where the problem starts.


I found that often my yo-yo would go wrong with the girl letting go and spinning rather than stopping for me to pull her back round. I tried a stronger grip - this seemed to help!

Ahh - the perpetual yoyo/hatchback confusion. There's some stuff about that in the yoyo thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3726). At some point you'll learn how to lead a hatchback, and that will improve your lead for the yoyo.

[Lou]

That's common enough. It can be a follower problem - inability to spin on the spot.
It can also be a lead problem, where I inadvertantly lead my partner to travel forwards during the return.
Or you simply might have one of those pesky followers who just fancied travelling the Return for a change... :whistle:

And on the subject of Swizzles... A Swizzle (to me) starts from that wrapped-in position, and results in the Lady going into a fast double turn as she's unwrapped. YSMV.

[ducasi]

No prizes for guessing which one I'll be remembering. :D Or at least trying to remember!

This is why I need someone to practice with – I've reached the weekend and I don't know if I still know any of the moves taught to me on Wednesday. :(

I've tried practicing with various house-hold paraphernalia, but somehow it just isn't the same. :sick:

Knowing the names of the moves might be a start of course! :wink:

Oh dear! :tears:

[Gadget]

Try writing them down (what you do in the move rather than just it's name) when you get in from a night's dancing.
I think that 99% of leads go through phases of doing this - if you search the forum, there are even discussions on what the best method of anotation is.

[ducasi]

Try writing them down ... when you get in from a night's dancing. That's what I'm using this thread for. :wink:

Here's the move I would like to know that I know:

It starts with a basket-style wrap, but then you walk round the lady doing clever things with your arms so that she end up facing away from you at which point you can unwrap her round acw for one and a half turns. I'll dig around to see if I can find a better way to describe what I'm doing rather than just saying "clever things". :grin:

[ducasi]

Hi there, it's me again!

Just back from ... :eek: my 9th class!

Another night of mixed fortunes...

First I want to say "Hi!" to everyone I met there - some for the first time. Cool meeting you. :nice: Let's see if you appear anywhere in the following...

Beginners' class went fairly smoothly, though it featured the dreaded "Ceroc spin" which I am never, ever on the right hand for! We also did the in-and-out, which seems like a bit of a redundant move, though I did end up using it later during a hairy moment in the freestyle... :whistle:

There were at least three ladies there for the first time, and from what I saw they all did quite well.

It's always a pleasure saying "Hi!" to all the ladies I'm getting to know as they parade round in front of the men. :wink: I was surprised by one I wasn't sure I knew who said "are you ducasi?" Seems I'm getting famous. :blush:

I'm also getting to know who I particularly like to dance with during the class and watch for them to come round to me – usually to see them go straight by... :sad: I don't really know what it is about these people that rocks my boat, so to speak. I guess it may be they are just good at following my sometimes erratic lead... :D

First freestyle session was a bit of a disaster. I had the pleasure of dancing with a lady whom I'd probably put in my "like to dance with" box, but right from the start it wasn't right. I think the problems started because I wasn't quite ready for the dance – hadn't got my brain in gear, and needed a drink (of water.)

Once we got going I found I had the same problem I'd mentioned last week of returns going astray. I stopped dancing to ask my partner what had happened – I needed to know. So we had a think, tried it again a few times and it seemed to be simply down to my leading being wonky. I can't say for sure exactly what the fundamental problem was, but it seems like I wasn't stepping in for the return (far enough?) (or maybe she was too far away to begin with?) and so my lead for a return was more like a catapult as I pulled the woman towards me.

This was a big blow to my confidence. If I couldn't even get a simple return right, how could I hope to do any of the more complex moves? :tears:

Let me say I'm really grateful to the woman who was honest with me when I asked her what had gone wrong. I'm just sorry that it wasn't a great way for her to spend 3 minutes of her time.

I almost went home right there and then. :tears: Then I thought about going to the beginner's consolidation class. :sad: Then I decided I'd stay for the intermediate class and just go home straight after that.

Then the intermediate class began and I didn't get a chance to have any other crazy thoughts. :confused: :sad: :really: :blush:

After that, obviously I wasn't expecting the intermediate class to go so well for me, but I surprised myself.

What were the moves?!? I wish I could remember their names properly. I know there are people here who will know them and hopefully help (didn't get any help last week though! :sad: :whistle: )

(I'd be really grateful to anyone who can point out any flaws in my descriptions which would imply a misunderstanding of the move. :nice: )

First was a first-move push spiny thing. You push the girl as she comes into your side into a cw spin which takes her behind where you were.
Pretzel thingy with a spin on the end. I've mentioned before how much I liked the pretzel and that was before learning it properly. This is this week's move to remember. (I've already forgotten last week's! :tears: )
Funny hatchback do-dah. In this the girl end up behind you facing away, I'm holding her hands right-to-right, left-to-left she's got her arms crossed. She does a wee wiggle thing ... I stand there looking stupid ... She comes back up, I spin her back round, catapult style.
Archie(?) spin (I think?). Funny hand-hold things needed here which I didn't quite understand. Apart from that fairly straight-forward.

I'm amazed at just how much carnage is going on around me during these classes. It means I'm not the only one who's struggling. :grin:

The best thing though is one moment you're struggling, then the girls all move round... she's not sure either, but here we go... and suddenly you both find you're doing it right! Things (just) fall into place. (That's a punch-line to a joke in a song – who can name the song? :wink: )

I don't know if I'll ever be good at the wiggle thing. Maybe I'm too self-conscious... :sad:

For the Archie spin, you had to first get the girl's hand wrapped round so her palm was face up, then pull it back down to go into the spin round bit. during this time you're meant to (allowed to?) have your thumb on the back of the girl's hand – I guess to make sure you don't let go. I found that a bit difficult as my thumb was usually at the front of her hand and it wasn't an easy task to smoothly bring it round to the back.

In the end though the carnage always settles (mostly?) and everyone seems to be doing all the moves OK (or at least their interpretation of them.)

Really, these moves seem to be only a little more challenging to me compared with the how I felt at my first class all those weeks ago. At least that's during the class. How about after the class?

As I'd said, I'd sort-of decided to head for the door after the intermediate class, but I didn't. I couldn't give up – how could I face you all here. :blush: And what about all the people there that knew me too? :eek:

Instead I decided to stay and see what'd happen, but I wasn't really up for asking people to dance though. That said, if you stand too close to the dance-floor, someone's always going to come and want a dance with you. :what:

So it wasn't long before I'd been dragged up by a number of women and although I can't say every dance was smooth like chocolate, I got through them pretty well. I even asked a couple of women to dance later on.

Over the night, I danced with maybe 6 or 7 people, with a nice range of different experience levels. All of them a pleasure in their own way – from the terrifying taxi :wink: to the absolute beginner. :nice:

I learnt first-hand the difference between passive following and active following (from a certain person who promised only passive following!) For me I think just for the moment I prefer a more passive follow, but I thought I coped fairly well with a more active style. I can't blame her for becoming more active in her follow – if I'm hesitating wondering what to do next, it's only natural she'll want to do her own thing for a bit, and it was good because she did it so well. :flower:

In fact both of the most experienced (best?) dancers I danced with were very good to me when I found myself grasping for moves to do. :flower: :hug:

By the end of the night I had pretty-much regained my confidence. I was putting the odd pretzel into my freestyle, though I was definitely relying too much on boring first moves. But at least it's better than stopping and asking for directions. :eek:

The highlight of the night for me wasn't my dancing though, it was watching TheTramp dance. He's just awesome. He also had some awesome partners. After watching him do a Double Trouble I've got to say: :worthy: How can I possibly match that?

Sorry I didn't get to say good-bye to everyone, but that was my cue to head home.

And so that was it! :waycool: Life is a roller-coaster, ain't it? :clap:

Thanks again to all the dancers I danced with during the class and freestyle. Big up for the DJ. Taxi dancers rule (even on their nights off!) And the teacher is just Pure Dead Brilliant. :grin:

Thanks for all your feedback too, I'd never have continued either this wee diary or dancing if it wasn't for the support I've got here. Hugs and kisses all round! :hug: :kiss: :hug: :kiss:

[TheTramp]

The highlight of the night for me ~snip~
Oh my word :blush:

The cheque is in the post....

Nice meeting you and Ash....

[David Bailey]

Hi there, it's me again!
Yay!


I can't say for sure exactly what the fundamental problem was, but it seems like I wasn't stepping in for the return (far enough?) (or maybe she was too far away to begin with?) and so my lead for a return was more like a catapult as I pulled the woman towards me.
A ceroc return is not immediately intuitive - you are supposed to turn the lady, then step back, as I remember - it's two motions. It may be you're trying to combine them into one motion? Take your time over the return, don't try to rush it, and it should get there. May be useful to slow it down - do the return, pause a beat, then the step back - so you understand it.



What were the moves?!? I wish I could remember their names properly.

:yeah: me too! :)


I've mentioned before how much I liked the pretzelOh dear :whistle:


I'm amazed at just how much carnage is going on around me during these classes. It means I'm not the only one who's struggling. :grin:
Know what you mean - it's actually quite comforting to know you're not the only one making a mess of things.


I don't know if I'll ever be good at the wiggle thing. Maybe I'm too self-conscious... :sad:
Do some Latin dancing - but maybe not whilst learning Ceroc as well :)

[ducasi]

Hi David, thanks for your comments.

I've got some exercises from my last workshop which should help me get my turns and returns right. But I also think this is something I could get help with from individual lessons.

What were the moves?!? I wish I could remember their names properly. :yeah: me too! :) Maybe Steve can remember? :wink:

[MartinHarper]

The dreaded "Ceroc spin" which I am never, ever on the right hand for!

Long term, you'll learn to do this move from either hand, or indeed both. I find this helps a lot with those panic moments, because I can just think "ceroc spin" (or unbranded equivalent) without worrying about which hand I'm in.


If I couldn't even get a simple return right, how could I hope to do any of the more complex moves? :tears:

To my mind, it's not really a question of "right" and "wrong" - more a question of "ok" and "better". As you learn to dance, you'll keep finding new ways that you can lead simple moves better. Often I find that these things come from learning more complex moves. For example - if you hadn't learnt a catapult, would you be able to tell that your lead for a return was too similar to your lead for a catapult?

Fortunately, perfection is not required. :)


Archie(?) spin (I think?).

Aye: Archie spin (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/archie_spin.html). Or possibly what afterfive calls the Cronin spin (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/cronin_spin.html), which is very similar.

[Wendy]

We also did the in-and-out, which seems like a bit of a redundant move...boring first moves I think the "in and out" is a very important move.... it can help you to get your timing sorted out and lets you get a feel for that "elasticity " thing which is vital... and you can practise your lead... And there is no such thing as boring first moves.. First moves excecuted and led well all in time to the music ..(and adding breaks and leaving space for the girl etc which hopefully will come later) can be pretty perfect in the right hands..less can definitely be more.

Please don't think that "interesting moves" is the way forward.. The "good" dancers you see have probably really mastered the beginner moves. The "good" dancers I dance with certainly have !! And then there are those who might look good but in fact are a nightmare to dance with because they cannot actually lead these "interesting" moves :sick: (I am constantly amazed at the men who attempt the Intermediate class and yet they struggle on the dancefloor with the simplest moves. If they struggle with beginner moves why do they think they'll be any better with more complicated moves ????)

First move with Bill Foreman or James (and Melanie) or DavidB or Nigel for a whole track vs lots of fancy moves with ...well pretty much anyone ??? No contest...

And apologies for the lack of passive following at the end :blush: ... it wasn't even active following !!! I'll keep practising though. So please ask me for a dance and give me some feedback....

Wx

[ducasi]

I think the "in and out" is a very important move.... it can help you to get your timing sorted out and lets you get a feel for that "elasticity " thing which is vital... and you can practise your lead... Sure, but if you think a dance consisting of only first moves with a good dancer would be OK, how about a dance with nothing but "in and out"s? It's not something I'd want to do if I was following...

And there is no such thing as boring first moves.. OK, but when so many of the moves I do are first moves, it sure gets boring for me and it must get boring for my partner... Unfortunately I'm not one of the great dancers you mentioned and so I can't do them all well and make them all interesting.

Please don't think that "interesting moves" is the way forward.. The "good" dancers you see have probably really mastered the beginner moves. Have no fears, I'll stick with working on the simple moves, though I still want to do enough of the intermediate moves often enough to get them stuck in my head. How was my pretzel? :grin:

(I am constantly amazed at the men who attempt the Intermediate class and yet they struggle on the dancefloor with the simplest moves. ... Like a return, for example? :wink:

My problems with the return shows up one weakness in my leading which makes me think I must have many more issues needing attention. I was especially upset as I really thought I'd got my "step-in-and-return" bit sorted.

And apologies for the lack of passive following at the end :blush: ... it wasn't even active following !!! No apology needed – I didn't have a problem with how you were following or at times not. :wink: It just made the experience all the more satisfying as I could see you were enjoying yourself anyway.

[TheTramp]

Ummm. Yeah. The moves last night were....

1. A first move push spin, with an exchange of places on the spin (ie. push 'through' the lady, to make her spin behind you)

2. Normal pretzel, with a throw-away flick on the end to make the lady spin in an anti-clockwise direction

3. Hatch cheek (this is allegedly the official Ceroc name for the move!!) (And very nice it was too. Brings back memories of 3am at Peacehaven! (but you'll have to ask Mhairi about that! :whistle: )).

4. Left handed archie spin

[Lory]

3. Hatch cheek
Sounds like a good move to use at Easter! :D

[David Bailey]

Please don't think that "interesting moves" is the way forward..
:yeah: "Lots of moves" does not equal "good dancing". And it's painful to watch (and I'm sure, to experience) someone who wants to try out as many moves as humanly possible, without actually mastering any of them.

But... I think the main benefit of learning and trying out lots of different moves is that they can teach you about the different things you can do - how you can move, how your partner can move, different handholds, different speeds, different leads, all that sort of thing.

After you've learned this stuff, you then get to the point where you can decide the moves you like, and focus on doing those ones really well... Of course, if you're really good, you can focus on doing all the moves really well, but most of us mortals can only use a subset.

This is probably why a lot of really good dancers often don't do "advanced moves", but the moves they do are done with enough style, flair and panache it takes your breath away anyway. :worthy:

[Piglet]

1. A first move push spin, with an exchange of places on the spin (ie. push 'through' the lady, to make her spin behind you)


I reckon that was the move we did first of all last night in Aberdeen too! Good move, but the last one was my favourite - no idea what it was called and I thought it looked naff but it felt really nice - doing some sort of windmill arm movements and it started from a catapult! Help Lisa - what was it called?

Great class by the way! :hug:

[Gadget]

Re: returns
It's actually fairly easy to get this wrong and pull the lady off balance, or cause her to travel. Some advice that may help:
- the path your hand should take is in a smooth curve from neutral position, towards the lady's shoulder, then above her fore-head. on the way back down, the lead should continue in the direction of the turn slightly as the hand comes towards you. When coming in towards yourself and the neutral position, apply slight pressure away to hault the lady's momentum and reverse it into a step back.
- try leading from the middle finger, having this the 'pivot point' above the lady's forehead where she can slide round. Alternitivly, as your hand rises, flaten it so that the connection is palm to palm and the lady gives upward pressure to maintain contact.
- smooth; your hand does not stop moving, it maintains contact and slight pressure all through the lead into it, the turn and the lead out of it.
- to lead a double, a 'finger halo' is drawn at the point above the lady's forehead.

- if the lady is traveling, the initial curve towards her shoulder is too far away from her center; make the curve towards her cheek rather than shoulder. (this point will depend on where the lady has come from; you need to allow for deadening of momentum)
- if the lady is loosing balance and stepping forward on finishing a turn, you are probably leading her out of the turn too quickly; take time and ensure you hault the momentum on the exit
- if the lady is loosing balance and stepping back on finishing the turn, you are probably not leading her to continue and finish the turn before stepping back.
- If she is 'wobbling' during the turn and a bit 'wild', you are probably leading too strong; lighten the lead and let her turn rather than trying to force her into your timing; regain control on the exit 'step back'

Some may work, some may not; generally you can't experiment slowly with a partner unless they are really good. Most novice ladys will take a raised arm to indicate a turn and will move themselves under it so that they can. This is especially true with a weak or hesitant lead. To get the hang of it, just lead the way in and the way out; let the lady take care of the "turning" bit herself. :D

Hope this helps. :)

[spindr]

Hmmm, returns... ...step up and close both of your feet together before you lead the return.

If one of your feet is stepped back, then your arm length is effectively shortened -- this can pull the lady off balance as she turns -- or lead her to move as the hand comes back to waist height. Also makes it easier if you are dancing with a taller partner :)

SpinDr.

[Wendy]

how about a dance with nothing but "in and out"s? .I can think of a lot worse :sick: And I'm not advocating you dance "in and outs" for a whole track - I'm just making a point. There is so much to think about other than the move itself so why not keep the moves simple and have fun with the other stuff :wink:


it sure gets boring for me and it must get boring for my partner....Remember school discos when you just swayed from side to side through a whole track ?? Wasn't too boring right ???? Adding lots of moves doesn't necessarily make things less boring for the follower.... Franck said some wise words to me the other night.. somthing like "when you are nervous you talk a lot so as not to leave any scary silences, and in the same way, guys fill in the dance space by doing lots of moves.." I know I do the talking thing so I can empathise there!!! Jeez - I might even learn to talk less after all this !!!! :rofl:

Just stopping dead for a beat or two would NOT be boring.. in fact it's probably one of the most exciting things that could happen in a dance... a mixture of uncertainty, excitement, fear, nervous laughter... and a body roll from the girl if you're lucky :wink:


I still want to do enough of the intermediate moves often enough to get them stuck in my head..The best way to do that I imagine is to do them over and over in freestyle... well ONE of them over and over.. I mean between other (beginner) moves you know like the back of your hand so you don't even need to think about them.... You will never remember the 4 moves as they were taught in the class...not past one night anyway ...and you'd be the first if you could...

I know you think the Revision Class is a waste of time but really it's not... I'm sure it would be great for your confidence if you came out of it feeling like you really had mastered the moves (there are 20 or so of them remember and if you put them into every dance you'd be doing
more moves than most people !) .... and you'd be desperate to get on the dance floor and put it all into practice instead of tacking difficult moves in freestyle you haven't fully mastered yet. Doing one every couple of weeks couldn't possibly do you any harm could it ???? And imagine having the best turn/return in Glasgow... the glory... the fame.. the babes !!!!!!

Wx

[MartinHarper]

I must have many more issues needing attention.

Like all dancers, there are probably thousands of ways in which you can improve your lead. That doesn't necessarilly mean that you have lots of "issues" that need attention. If I attempt to lead a return, and end up leading a half-travelling return, that's non-ideal, but hardly a disaster.

[ducasi]

Ummm. Yeah. The moves last night were....

1. A first move push spin, with an exchange of places on the spin (ie. push 'through' the lady, to make her spin behind you)

2. Normal pretzel, with a throw-away flick on the end to make the lady spin in an anti-clockwise direction

3. Hatch cheek (this is allegedly the official Ceroc name for the move!!) (And very nice it was too. Brings back memories of 3am at Peacehaven! (but you'll have to ask Mhairi about that! :whistle: )).

4. Left handed archie spin Thanks Steve!

A few points...

# 1 -it's a shame move this one doesn't have a clearer name to distinguish it from the "first move push spin" - what was the alternative name you gave it?

#2 - my fuzzy memory says it was a clockwise spin? I'm no-doubt wrong.

#4 - what we did looks more like the "Cronin Spin", as documented by After Five (as referred to by Martin.) I'm guessing that Ceroc doesn't distinguish between the two moves?

Thanks again though, it really is really useful for me to know the correct names of these moves. :cheers:

[Graham]

Oh my word :blush:
Yes, they do seem remarkably like your words, now you mention it :wink:

[ducasi]

Both Gadget and spindr have useful things to say about returns... Here's what spindr says:


Hmmm, returns... ...step up and close both of your feet together before you lead the return.

If one of your feet is stepped back, then your arm length is effectively shortened -- this can pull the lady off balance as she turns -- or lead her to move as the hand comes back to waist height. This could be something, as it sounds a lot like my problem...

Except that in workshops the exercises we were taught didn't insist on this and doing a small trial I don't see the difference in my position if I leave one foot behind, but pushing me forward.

I'm going to get my DVD out and watch closely to see where the guy puts his feet when doing a return.

Thanks for the tip.

As for Gadget's post, I think I'm going to have to read it a few more times to get to get the most out of it. :wink:

I think a big part of the problem is that the lady is just too far away from me – perhaps as a result of a spin gone awry. I need to fix this before trying to return her. Probably by either leading the spin better, or making extra steps in to bring her back under control. (Why does this remind me of what someone was saying in the active/passive follow thread about controlling a car as it power slides through a corner? Of course, in my case it's just a careless skid on a patch of ice.)

Keeping the driving analogy going, this seems to be something that you can only learn about doing real dancing – in the same way as you can't learn how to control a skidding car until you're on a skid pan. When you're in class everything's much more controlled and (hopefully) both me and my car – err, sorry, I mean my dance partner – will know where we should be and can correct ourselves without requiring me to do the extra work (of fixing my mistakes.)

Of course you remember all the things your instructor told you and eventually it will all comes right in the end. :nice:

[TheTramp]

# 1 -it's a shame move this one doesn't have a clearer name to distinguish it from the "first move push spin" - what was the alternative name you gave it?

#2 - my fuzzy memory says it was a clockwise spin? I'm no-doubt wrong.

#4 - what we did looks more like the "Cronin Spin", as documented by After Five (as referred to by Martin.) I'm guessing that Ceroc doesn't distinguish between the two moves?

Thanks again though, it really is really useful for me to know the correct names of these moves. :cheers:

1. When I teach it, I call it the first move gate, cos the action is sort of like pushing through a gate (or swing door). Mhairi wanted to call it whatever it was that she called it. It's her class, her call :D

2. It's definitely anti-clockwise. Unless you have a very funny clock. As you bring the left hand down at the end of the pretzel, you threw your left hand between you to flick spin the lady anti-clockwise.

4. It's called an Archie spin whenever I've seen it taught before. It might well be called something else somewhere else. When I'm teaching, I make up the moves to fit the actions. I never claim that the name hasn't been used before somewhere else. It's surprising just how many of my first move variations are called "First move thingy" :whistle: (I know that this doesn't help much. Sorry!).

[ducasi]

Remember school discos when you just swayed from side to side through a whole track ?? Um... No...

Wasn't too boring right ???? I was rarely that lucky. :sad: But in these "dances", it wasn't the dance, it was because you fancied the pants off the girl. (both metaphorically, and literally. :wink: )


Adding lots of moves doesn't necessarily make things less boring for the follower.... Franck said some wise words to me the other night.. somthing like "when you are nervous you talk a lot so as not to leave any scary silences, and in the same way, guys fill in the dance space by doing lots of moves.." I do the opposite - I talk less and I think when I'm nervous dancing, I use fewer moves.

When I was dancing with you, I felt I had to impress you. When I danced with the beginners I didn't have so much to live up to. I think I used a greater variety of moves, in a smoother manner with them than with you.

Don't take that the wrong way – I'm always going to be intimidated by dancers that are clearly better than me – it's not just you. :D

I'm sure this will get better as I get better.

Just stopping dead for a beat or two would NOT be boring.. I agree, but you have to find the right time and move to do it during. :nice:

I know you think the Revision Class is a waste of time but really it's not... I don't think it's a waste of time, I just don't think I've got much out of the last few I went to. I think I get more out of the intermediate class. They stretch me, and give me a greater understanding of how Ceroc dancing and the moves work together. In the revision class I can do pretty much all the beginner moves well enough to not need remedial attention. It's only during freestyle dancing where things start to go bad for me, and as I've said in my last post above, some things you just can't learn in a class.

(Martin's point that a poorly lead return going awry is not a disaster is of course absolutely correct. But it was something I thought I should be able to do and the problems it caused dented my confidence sufficiently to make me not want to dance – and that's a disaster! :wink: )

And imagine having the best turn/return in Glasgow... the glory... the fame.. the babes !!!!!! Chance would be a fine thing! :grin:

Cheers Wendy!

[ducasi]

1. When I teach it, I call it the first move gate, cos the action is sort of like pushing through a gate (or swing door). Mhairi wanted to call it whatever it was that she called it. It's her class, her call :D Sure, but having another name is always useful. :grin:

2. It's definitely anti-clockwise. Unless you have a very funny clock. As you bring the left hand down at the end of the pretzel, you threw your left hand between you to flick spin the lady anti-clockwise. OK, I'm getting confused with a move we did last week with lots of arms doing clever things.

4. It's called an Archie spin whenever I've seen it taught before. It might well be called something else somewhere else. No problem, I just thought I'd clarify it for my avid readers. :wink:

It's surprising just how many of my first move variations are called "First move thingy" :whistle: (I know that this doesn't help much. Sorry!). That's OK. I just crave the names as it provides a hook for me to hang the details of the move on. It also means I've maybe got a half a chance of being able to find a person or web site that knows the move I mean and can help me with it. :nice:

[Graham]

If you are managing the classes but seeing problems in your freestyle, then as you have realised it's probably because the partners in the class are compensating for a mistake you're making since they know what you're trying to do. It's good you've got some ideas from the people here, but the most efficient way of finding a problem is by getting someone to watch you. As I've mentioned before, the taxi dancers and the teacher should be able to do this for you - at your venue both Mairi and I would be more than happy to help. It usually only takes a few minutes to give you enough to work on for several weeks.

[CJ]

4. It's called an Archie spin whenever I've seen it taught before. It might well be called something else somewhere else


Arches spin, you nugget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[bigdjiver]

Arches spin, you nugget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:Around here it is called "The Archie spin".

[CJ]

Around here it is called "The Archie spin".

:blush: that's me told...

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

I think we should create a blog for Ducasi and his very LONG posts-I have attempted to read all of the posts on this thread, but gave up-there's too many of them :rofl:

Ashx

[ducasi]

I think we should create a blog for Ducasi and his very LONG posts-I have attempted to read all of the posts on this thread, but gave up-there's too many of them :rofl: I'd thought of posting all my thoughts on Ceroc to a blog instead of here, but then I'd have to persuade the audience that's already here to go there. I don't think I'd have the same readership or feedback. Certainly, not many of the dance experts who have helped me here would have taken the time elsewhere. :nice:

I'm not ruling it out for the future, though at the moment I've somehow managed to mess up the blogging software on my web site and i haven't had a chance to sort it out yet. :sad:

I'm sorry that it's reached the stage where it's getting too much to read it all. Maybe you want to wait for the film version that Piglet and me are going to write? :wink:

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

I'm not ruling it out for the future, though at the moment I've somehow managed to mess up the blogging software on my web site and i haven't had a chance to sort it out yet. :sad:

Youv'e got a web-site? I love web-sites, what's the addy? :D

xxx

[ducasi]

Youv'e got a web-site? I love web-sites, what's the addy? :D Well if you had read all my posts in this thread you'd know by now. :wink:

[ducasi]

Hi Guys,

Just back from the 10th class.

It wasn't so great for me this week. Not entirely sure why, but mostly I don't think I was in the right mood for dancing. :sad:

But let's get on...

We had that stand-in guy again this week. :wink: Compared to our normal teacher, Franck's certainly funnier, but they're both great teachers (well, I think so) and I wouldn't pick one over the other.

What he does seem to bring though, is extra women. Are they coming from all around Scotland or from his other classes especially, or is it just a coincidence? Don't know, but there were a lot of unfamiliar faces, and not just beginners.

The beginners' class was OK – nothing too difficult for me. Let's see... Started with a yo-yo, then a slow comb (first time I'd done that - kept on trying to just do a comb!), into a good ol' in-and-out, straight into a basket and following that with a man-spin back for the yo-yo.

Franck re-named the man-spin a "batmobile" as the guys were supposed to pretend they had a toy batmobile car in their right hand that could fly through the man spin and also helicopter above the woman's head for the return. :rofl:

The first freestyle didn't last very long (it seemed to me) but I got in a few dances – first with an absolute beginner whom I'd just finished the class with. She was doing quite good considering, but I directed her towards a taxi dancer after our dance finished as I knew he'd be able to help her much more than I could.

After a quick sip of water, a taxi dancer (new to me, don't know if she's new to taxiing or new to this class) asked me for a dance (I must still have that beginner look about me) and after that I had another request from a fairly recent start who I think might have done her first intermediate class tonight.

Both went quite well – maybe better with the taxi dancer though. I managed to practice my pretzel from last week and felt good about that.

With the less experienced woman I think I managed to find a better mix of moves – it was the same thing as I've talked about before, where with a better dancer you're going to be more intimidated, will concentrate too much on getting the moves "right" and then have less time to think about choice of move.

Was looking around for another dance partner, of my choice this time, when the intermediate class started...

Franck assured us that he'd picked three quick and easy moves to do, but I didn't do as well as the previous two weeks where some of the moves were clearly more difficult. Hopefully just a bad week.

First was something like "the lady nelson step across", or something like that. Because the initial lead was very different from what I'm used to, but enough like a basket (two hands leading the lady to my right) that I kept on messing up. Could do it on its own, but as soon as I tried combining it with moves learnt later it would usually go wrong. You'd lead the lady to your right, turning her under your right hand into a sort-of swizzle type thing. Then you'd pull her back in a step-across type move (remembering to let go of both hands!)

Next up was a move with a name almost as long as this post! It started with a sort-of first move-style step in, but you put your wrist on the girl's shoulder and then as you pushed her round you kept leading with the hand on the shoulder until you had turned her round twice(?) and switched places. Then you'd do a mambo walk (?? I think Franck had an alternative name for this bit too – nothing to do with toy cars though!) finishing with a spin bringing you back round to face the way you'd started. I could pretty much do this move.

Last was a "Sway Tornado", although Franck didn't want us thinking that it was as fast as the tornado name might suggest! :nice: It started with a sway, a move I wasn't familiar with, but in the sway you'd switch your hands to hold with your left and then as you came out of the move you'd turn the girl twice – once as part of unwrapping her, then once again for kicks. :nice: (I think credit for this moves lies with Howard and Nicola, who taught it at the Aberdeen Beach Ballroom event. Right?)

My big problem with this move was simply that I was always on the wrong foot when trying to sway - I had first-move compatible feet (step back on the left), which was all wrong for this move (step back on the right.) :confused:

I maybe managed to get through all the moves one after another successfully just once or twice during the class, but as the class ended and the freestyle started my current partner and I went though it again a few more times and by the end I think we had a not-bad approximation to what we'd seen on the stage.

After that I stopped for a gulp of water and hid in the corner for a bit. (sorry!) :sad:

I asked a beginner to dance, but she wasn't up for it. It was a shame as I didn't feel up to dancing with anyone more taxing. I was tired and bit confused by the new moves. But when it comes down to it, I just wasn't in a mood to dance.

So I left.

Not my most successful week. I had noticed again my problems with returns when I was dancing with the less experienced women – I think maybe with the more experienced, they're maybe just better at knowing what they should be doing when I don't lead clearly. Didn't get a chance to analyse it further.

I'm always amazed that other people have problems during the intermediate class – I guess as a beginner-intermediate I expect everyone else to have it all figured out by now. Of course, I'm mainly going by what the women I'm partnered with are saying, or doing. I rarely have time to watch the other dancers. I was also surprised by how quickly some of the women decide to move up to intermediate. Won't comment further on that one though... :wink:

Well, I think I've written enough for tonight. Think I need to get to my bed.

As ever, thanks to the dancers, the taxis, the demo and the teacher. :cheers:

Oh, and the venue manager – keep forgetting the essential role he plays. :cheers:

And "Hi!"s to all the people I got to chat with, a few for the first time. :flower:

Bye for now...

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

(I must still have that beginner look about me)
Surely not?..... :whistle:


I asked a beginner to dance, but she wasn't up for it. It was a shame as I didn't feel up to dancing with anyone more taxing. I was tired and bit confused by the new moves. But when it comes down to it, I just wasn't in a mood to dance.
Sorry....I didn't feel much like dancing either....finding it too difficult right now :sad:


First was something like "the lady nelson step across", or something like that..........with your left and then as you came out of the move you'd turn the girl twice – once as part of unwrapping her, then once again for kicks.
This is all going way over my head.....*goes off to read easier to understand threads* :wink:

xxx

[Franck]

Franck assured us that he'd picked three quick and easy moves to do, but I didn't do as well as the previous two weeks where some of the moves were clearly more difficult. Hopefully just a bad week.Ah! My remarks were decidedly 'tongue in cheek' as the reason there were only three moves was that they were pretty difficult to lead successfully.


First was something like "the lady nelson step across", or something like that. Because the initial lead was very different from what I'm used to, but enough like a basket (two hands leading the lady to my right) that I kept on messing up.Yep, that was the Lady's Nelson Backpass and both the start and exit of the move are unusual, so even very experienced dancers were struggling to get it every time.


Next up was a move with a name almost as long as this post! Open Shoulder Neckbreak into Mambo Walks! :eek: A fab move IMHO, which really focused the guys' attention on the lady's momentum and how they can use it for the move with a subtle lead from the shoulder. Again not an easy move to do, so well done if you got that one.


Last was a "Sway Tornado", although Franck didn't want us thinking that it was as fast as the tornado name might suggest! :nice: It started with a sway, a move I wasn't familiar with, but in the sway you'd switch your hands to hold with your left and then as you came out of the move you'd turn the girl twice – once as part of unwrapping her, then once again for kicks. :nice: (I think credit for this moves lies with Howard and Nicola, who taught it at the Aberdeen Beach Ballroom event. Right?) Yep, Howard and Nicola used that move very successfully in some of their Latin routines and I must admit, I really like it, as do most of the women I danced with later on :nice:


I maybe managed to get through all the moves one after another successfully just once or twice during the class, but as the class ended and the freestyle started my current partner and I went though it again a few more times and by the end I think we had a not-bad approximation to what we'd seen on the stage.Excellent, I would suggest you try and remember (and include in your future freestyle dances, only one of the moves above, the one you liked the best, it's more likely you'll remember that one rather than trying to remember the whole routine.


Not my most successful week. I had noticed again my problems with returns when I was dancing with the less experienced women – I think maybe with the more experienced, they're maybe just better at knowing what they should be doing when I don't lead clearly. Didn't get a chance to analyse it further.Shame you didn't come and say hi!
Eventhough I was busy dancing a lot, I would l've been delighted to take a 5 minute breather to help you through any of the Intermeditate moves or specific issues like the returns... Teachers are there to help, and most of that is usually focused on dancing, but we are available to chat and give direct feedback / advice during the Freestyle, or indeed at the end of the night!
For what it's worth, it looked like you were coping with the Intermediate class pretty well, and much better than I would have expected after 10 weeks of classes!

Keep up the practise and make sure you come and say hi next week as I'm back for another Wednesday!

[drathzel]

Surely not?..... :whistle:


Sorry....I didn't feel much like dancing either....finding it too difficult right now :sad:


This is all going way over my head.....*goes off to read easier to understand threads* :wink:

xxx

hey jazz shoes

Hope you enjoyed yor second week. Especially as you had our fantastic Franck teaching last night!

I note that you said you didnt feel like dancing much last night as you were finding it hard. In my limited experience i found that even when i was finding it hard the best thing to do was dance anyway. So what if you feel you are making mistake, we all remember what it was like to be a beginner and everyone makes mistake no matter how long we had been dancing. It will only become easier as you practice more and the moves register in your muscle memory. My advice is get up and dance, make a horlicks of it as eventually it will click and you will do the moves right without realising it.

Ducasi used to try and sneak off without dancing after the revision class. And he will tell you that the more he stayed and danced the easier(?) things became. Also remember that you dont need to remember the order of the routine taught in class, you just need to recognise the lead given. You will find that the more you dance with non beginners the more you will notice the leads. I know its really intimdating but do go and ask the "better" dancers to dance.

Hope to see you soon!!!! :hug:

[Graham]

What he does seem to bring though, is extra women. Are they coming from all around Scotland or from his other classes especially, or is it just a coincidence? Don't know, but there were a lot of unfamiliar faces, and not just beginners.
I think it's just coincidence (actually I blame Strictly Dance Fever). And quite a few of the surplus women were in fact beginners. Although the thought that there are all these extra women drawn to a venue by Franck's presence is interesting :wink:

After a quick sip of water, a taxi dancer (new to me, don't know if she's new to taxiing or new to this class) asked me for a dance (I must still have that beginner look about me).
She is both new to taxiing and new to this class - her regular night before she started taxiing was the Tuesday class in Glasgow, although she has occasionally been on Wednesday.


I'm always amazed that other people have problems during the intermediate class – I guess as a beginner-intermediate I expect everyone else to have it all figured out by now. Of course, I'm mainly going by what the women I'm partnered with are saying, or doing. I rarely have time to watch the other dancers. I was also surprised by how quickly some of the women decide to move up to intermediate. Won't comment further on that one though... :wink:
After you've tried a couple of intermediate classes it's probably worth sitting out one week and watching, so you can see how difficult lots of other people are finding it! When I started I assumed I was the only one struggling. Nowadays I can generally watch the rest of the class at the same time as dancing, and see that frequently there are only a couple of us on the same count as the teacher.

Some women do move up to the intermediate class before they're ready, but it's worth remembering that on average women are ready to move up quite a bit before the men are.

[David Bailey]

After you've tried a couple of intermediate classes it's probably worth sitting out one week and watching, so you can see how difficult lots of other people are finding it! When I started I assumed I was the only one struggling. Nowadays I can generally watch the rest of the class at the same time as dancing, and see that frequently there are only a couple of us on the same count as the teacher.
:yeah: A good intermediate class should stretch you, it shouldn't be easy to master. Lots of people getting it wrong is not always a Bad Thing, unless it's everyone, getting everything wrong, at the end of the class of course... :whistle:

[Piglet]

We had that stand-in guy again this week. :wink: Compared to our normal teacher, Franck's certainly funnier, but they're both great teachers (well, I think so) and I wouldn't pick one over the other.

What he does seem to bring though, is extra women. Are they coming from all around Scotland or from his other classes especially, or is it just a coincidence? Don't know, but there were a lot of unfamiliar faces, and not just beginners.

Way to go Franck!!

Are there any women out there that have the same effect? We could do with more male dancers in Aberdeen... Although I dread to think of the size of the class sometimes if we had a man for every woman - where would we all fit?

[drathzel]

Way to go Franck!!

Are there any women out there that have the same effect? We could do with more male dancers in Aberdeen... Although I dread to think of the size of the class sometimes if we had a man for every woman - where would we all fit?

is that woman not called lisa? suprised they dont flock to dance with her the way we do franck.

But you know what your problem is...... too many women after btc!!!! :hug:

[Piglet]

(I think credit for this moves lies with Howard and Nicola, who taught it at the Aberdeen Beach Ballroom event. Right?)

Bloomin 'eck! Can't believe I didn't meet you at the Beach Ballroom, Ducasi! Drat, drat, drat. Did you also do the workshops? Are you doing any of the Dundee workshops on 7th May? Or the party? I have a craving to put a face to your name! Or shall we write our book/film without ever meeting ... hmmm! Like that idea - and we could have a surprise meeting to publicise it!

[Piglet]

is that woman not called lisa? suprised they dont flock to dance with her the way we do franck.

Yep Drathzel I agree with you wholeheartedly :hug: - Lisa should be a pull for lots of guys - do you think we should get her painted onto a bus to advertise the fact? Or a billboard (or lisaboard for the men and a billboard for the women! :whistle: )

Anyone got any tips as to how you entice men you know to give it a go - I obviously don't enthuse as much as I thought I did cos I've failed miserably in getting any of my male chums to come along.

[ducasi]

Bloomin 'eck! Can't believe I didn't meet you at the Beach Ballroom, Ducasi! Drat, drat, drat. Did you also do the workshops? Are you doing any of the Dundee workshops on 7th May? Or the party? You wouldn't have seen me as I wasn't there – it was Franck that gave the credit and I was just making sure it was repeated.

I'm not expecting to be in Dundee for the 7th or 8th, thought I might be in the neighbourhood sometime that weekend.

Don't worry Piglet, we'll meet soon enough. :flower:

[drathzel]

Yep Drathzel I agree with you wholeheartedly :hug: - Lisa should be a pull for lots of guys - do you think we should get her painted onto a bus to advertise the fact? Or a billboard (or lisaboard for the men and a billboard for the women! :whistle: )


billboard......... :drool: he could be the "smith" (from satc) of Ceroc!!!!! :drool: :drool:

[Dreadful Scathe]

or lisaboard

I vote for the LisaBoard...woo :)

[Rhythm King]

I vote for the LisaBoard...woo :)

Just work with me a minute here. So if Bill is Better Than Chocolate, then does that mean Lisa is Better Than Beer?

:cheers: :drool: :wink:

R-K x

[Franck]

Just work with me a minute here. So if Bill is Better Than Chocolate, then does that mean Lisa is Better Than Beer?Nope :D For me it would have to be Better Than Champagne :cheers:

[Sheepman]

does that mean Lisa is Better Than Beer? No, Lisa is still BTC, Better Than Champagne!

(Puts my head in a spin anyway! :really: )
Greg

Hey Franck, great minds and all that... I was just busy elsewhere while you were busy here!

[drathzel]

Oh, not fair all the btc dancers are in aberdeen and thats soooooooooooooo far away!!! :tears:

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

Hope you enjoyed yor second week. Especially as you had our fantastic Franck teaching last night!
Yes I did enjoy it, Franck is a very good teacher :)


I know its really intimdating but do go and ask the "better" dancers to dance.

Ok,I will try :wink: :D


Hope to see you soon!!!! :hug:

Yes you too-I will save you a hug :hug:

Ashx

[Rhythm King]

Nope :D For me it would have to be Better Than Champagne :cheers:
:yeah:

you're absolutely right Franck, what was I thinking :blush: I was having a hard day at the office and was just thirsty, I guess!

[DavidB]

For me it would have to be Better Than ChampagneOr Better Than Red Bull...

[Franck]

Or Better Than Red Bull...:rofl: Fair cop!

Red Bull when I'm driving, Champagne when I'm not! :cheers:

I'll see you on Sunday at the Champs and we can exchange tipple tips!

(and this time I must have a dance with Lily! )

[ducasi]

Hi Franck, thanks for your reply...

Ah! My remarks were decidedly 'tongue in cheek' as the reason there were only three moves was that they were pretty difficult to lead successfully. I figured as much, but I still think I should have done better.

Thanks also for your run-through of the moves here – very helpful.

Excellent, I would suggest you try and remember (and include in your future freestyle dances, only one of the moves above, the one you liked the best, it's more likely you'll remember that one rather than trying to remember the whole routine. Sorry, but I couldn't say I like any of them particularly much, in that I couldn't do any of them particularly well. :sad: OK, maybe I quite liked the sway tornado, but it'll take me a bit to get the sway working well enough to try it in freestyle.

What I'd like from the intermediate classes at the moment (and I know that this isn't what most people will want) is to just learn the "classic" intermediate moves without all the extra bits – so for example, I'd have liked to have learnt the "sway" before making it more complex with a tornado bit at the end.

I guess this is what the intermediate workshops provide, right?

For what it's worth, it looked like you were coping with the Intermediate class pretty well, and much better than I would have expected after 10 weeks of classes! Thanks. :nice: It is 10 weeks of classes, plus two workshops, but I am beginning to think that I might actually end up quite good at this dancing business. :waycool:

Just give me another year or two... :whistle:

Shame you didn't come and say hi!
Eventhough I was busy dancing a lot, I would l've been delighted to take a 5 minute breather to help you through any of the Intermeditate moves or specific issues like the returns... Teachers are there to help, and most of that is usually focused on dancing, but we are available to chat and give direct feedback / advice during the Freestyle, or indeed at the end of the night!

Keep up the practise and make sure you come and say hi next week as I'm back for another Wednesday! Will try to say "Hi!" this week. I appreciate the offers (from both you and Graham earlier) to help me with any problems, though I think if I asked either of you to watch me dancing to give advice I'd probably be either too nervous and mess up more, or try extra hard and so not mess up in the ways that I normally do (if that makes sense?)

What you maybe need are spy cameras you can monitor from the "DJ booth" so I don't know I'm being watched. :wink:

Cheers!

[ducasi]

Hi Graham,

I think it's just coincidence (actually I blame Strictly Dance Fever). And quite a few of the surplus women were in fact beginners. Although the thought that there are all these extra women drawn to a venue by Franck's presence is interesting :wink: I'm not so sure... Drathzel admitted as much a few posts later, and listening to the girls in the class, he's got a lot of fans. :wink: Now the cat's out of the bag that he'll be there this coming Wednesday, will the female numbers climb even higher?

She is both new to taxiing and new to this class - her regular night before she started taxiing was the Tuesday class in Glasgow, although she has occasionally been on Wednesday. I recognised her, maybe from an earlier visit to the GUU or perhaps at one of the party nights I briefly visited.

Does she read the forums? (If so, thanks for the dance, and good luck with the taxiing!)

One thing that impressed me was that she asked me if I was left-handed. I won't go into the details of why (a wee mistake in a move) but she was right. Which makes me wonder a few things...


What difference (especially to the lead) does being left-handed make?
How often is it noticeable to the left hander's partner?
What's it like for left-handed followers who are mostly using their right hand?

That's a cue either for a new thread or for a HarperLink (trademark owned by alex, and operated by MartinHarper.)

After you've tried a couple of intermediate classes it's probably worth sitting out one week and watching, so you can see how difficult lots of other people are finding it! When I started I assumed I was the only one struggling. Nowadays I can generally watch the rest of the class at the same time as dancing, and see that frequently there are only a couple of us on the same count as the teacher. I don't think I could sit out! I enjoy it too much to just sit and watch, and I think one of the many scary women would drag me onto the floor and insist I help balance numbers. :what:

Cheers!

[ducasi]

left-handed... That's a cue either for a new thread or for a HarperLink (trademark owned by alex, and operated by MartinHarper.) In the immediate absence of a Harper, I did a little digging myself and found these two inter-related threads...

Handedness, dyslexia and dancing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4787)

Cross dominance in left handers (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4759)

But didn't find any that addressed my particular questions...

So...

What difference does being left-handed make? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5244)

See you over there... :nice:

[bigdjiver]

A child partly learns the language by listening to the "grown-ups" talking to each other. Much of the conversation will not be understood, but gradually the child learns to associate particular words and sequences together. As the childs vocabulary improves the patterns in context become clearer and familiar. Once it begins to fall into place the rate of development becomes very rapid.

The Ceroc Intermediate classes are built like that. I would have a very hard time putting a name to moves I do regularly, and would be guessing more often than not trying to demonstrate a move to a name, but somehow I know enough to freestyle all night, and still go home thinking "I didn't do that move, or that one, or ...".

I learned how to do the sway in many contexts, and now I can use it in combinations that I never seen. I still think there must be a better way than throwing all these different variations at us, but the present Intermediate class system does definitely work.

[ducasi]

A child partly learns the language by listening to the "grown-ups" talking to each other ...{snip} ... I still think there must be a better way than throwing all these different variations at us, but the present Intermediate class system does definitely work. Yep, you're right, but we still teach children simple words, then more complex stuff, bit-by-bit, year-by-year, until we're subjecting the poor kids to the baroque version of the language as it was in Shakespeare's time. :wink:

When learning a foreign language we don't try to learn it all in one go just by listening and talking to native speakers, instead we learn the important but simple stuff first, then more complex stuff, like different verb tenses, and so on. The Italian classes I went to have five different levels. (I only managed level 1. :sad: )

So it would make sense to teach dancing in this manner – except you can't really do this when you want to teach all the different levels at the same time.

I think I understand why Ceroc does it this way, but rather than go on at length, I'll just leave it at that. I do hope though that there's a way for me to augment the intermediate classes with some simpler beginner-intermediate training, perhaps via workshops.

I'm sure that I'd eventually learn pretty much everything I'd want to through intermediate classes, but I can't help thinking I could optimise the process by working from the foundations upwards. And as I've said a few times before, I can be very impatient. :devil:

Cheers!

[Sheepman]

I'm sure that I'd eventually learn pretty much everything I'd want to through intermediate classes, Sounds like dangerous thinking, because there is all that stuff that can be learned from focused workshops, dance holidays, trying different dance styles, etc.
If I was at the stage you are now, or maybe will be in another few months, knowing what I now know, I think I would make a point of trying a different dance style where lessons did concentrate on the fundamentals, even if I didn't especially enjoy the effort involved, (nor maybe the music and social side of it). I think in the long run that would have had major benefits for my dancing, but hindsight is too easy...
There again, if I'd had enough foresight, I would have started dancing a couple of decades earlier than I did. :tears:

but I can't help thinking I could optimise the process by working from the foundations upwards. :yeah:

Greg

[MartinHarper]

you can't really do this when you want to teach all the different levels at the same time.

That is indeed the problem.
You mention workshops. Another option is to try other venues. I find that the difficulty level of intermediate classes varies quite widely between different venues. Also, some venues split out "intermediate" and "improvers", or "intermediate 1" and "intermediate 2".

[David Bailey]

Sounds like dangerous thinking, because there is all that stuff that can be learned from focused workshops, dance holidays, trying different dance styles, etc.
Fair enough, you'll definitely learn more that way - but {pedant}Ducasi specifically said "Everything I want to", and without knowing what he wants to know, it's a bit of a sweeping statement. {/pedant}

That nit picked, it's an interesting point.

It could be that learning a new dance style a few months after starting MJ might very well be the ideal time. You're used to the idea of learning, still in "learning mode", and you're also used to not getting it right all the time, so you may be less frustrated with your mistakes. And this may catch any bad habits early on.

[ducasi]

Hi folks!

Is this my 11th or 12th class? I can't remember anymore. Either way, maybe you want to know how it went???

I normally start off with a brief statement on how I felt the night went. This time I want you to rate how you think I felt on a scale of 1 to 10. (Hey, why should I do all the work here?)

So turned up nicely early but still lots of people coming in late. Bad people. :sad: :wink: They missed the fun "Ceroc Essentials" at the start.

I haven't talked about this bit before – I think this is one of the recent innovations of the beginner's class which takes the place of the warm-up that we did anyway but didn't have a trade-mark name. :D

I think it's quite useful, gets everyone going, gets my limbs moving. I'm really hopeless though at doing things with hands and feet at the same time. Why is why I normally go through this bit with my hands in my pockets... :blush:

Oh, I didn't mention, but if you've been following you'd know we had Franck as teacher again this week. Surprisingly he didn't seem to bring the crowds of fans I expected – maybe my theory was wrong. :confused: We did get lots of new beginners again this week though. :waycool:

So the beginners class taught us: first move; shoulder slide; yo-yo; ceroc spin. Not quite mastered the ceroc spin yet, but I think a lot of how you do that move is in how your partner does it. If you're just going to just stand there and look at me when I'm trying to lead you into a block, it's not going to be easy to spin you... :( The other problem I found was quite often I'd catch with my left rather than my right after the shoulder slide. This must be the an aspect of the left-handed thing that surprisingly few people have been interested in discussing so-far. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5244)

It was funny how different partners reacted to it. I knew I could switch hand easy enough, but one or two partners seemed unnecessarily alarmed that I had used the wrong hand. Hey, let me deal with it – it's just my problem until it matters for the next move and if I don't get it sorted before then, you can then stop and tell me I'm a big fat idiot. (Or words to that effect.)

I guess it can be off-putting for beginners, though should they really even notice?

Enough of this, hope I haven't gone too far into the criticism of beginners territory again. :flower:

First free-style went pretty well, got asked to dance by folks, asked other folks to dance. (I'd wanted to take the chance to say "Hi!" to Franck, but couldn't find him the few times I was free.) Can't remember how many dances I had or with who, but it was all pretty good. Was trying hard to avoid repetitive first-moves and seemed to do not bad. Still got that "travelling" return problem, especially when I'm on my right hand. (Another left-hander issue???)

Onto the intermediate class. I think Franck must have taken pity on me after last week, as I found this week's moves much more manageable than last's. (Not that they weren't still pretty tough, so maybe it's just that last week was an off week for me.)

I kept missing the names of the moves again, but the first two moves were variations on the first move...

The first one had an extra wee turn bit which led into a lean (a baby lean?) I've always wanted to learn this lean thing since I saw it in action way back in January. (That's before I started – if there's one move that brought me to ceroc, that's the one!)

I didn't do so bad at this one. I need to get better shoes for dancing in as I sometimes found it difficult to get my feet into position for a safe lean. I'm exploring my options this week. This though is my move of the week!

The second variation on the first move we combined with the first one, but I guess can be done on it's own. I wish I could remember the correct names!!! It stopped the move as the girl came back round to the front and you'd lead a slide-kind-of-thing as you stepped away sideways from each other.

Not so good at this one. Franck spent a lot of time talking about how to do the footwork involved, but I was too busy getting the hands in the right places to worry much about my feet!

Next up was some sort of accordion. Can't remember the exact name again, but you'd turn the girl one and a bit turns to your side and block and then reverse it. Repeat as desired.

This was pretty easy really. A move I'll have to think about using again.

Coming out of that we went into an arm-lock walk thing. Would swivel round, lock arms and go walkies!

Not so bad, but I could never get the arm lock done right. :sad:

And that was it!

Freestyle started and although I'd planned a wee breather, and was still hoping to get a chance to say "Hi" to Franck, girls kept dragging me up to dance! Eventually I hid behind a table so I could have a wee pit-stop and get some water in me. That worked!

And then Franck came and said hello! It was good to meet you and have a wee chat about things. I got a mini master-class where my returning problems were diagnosed and hopefully I'm on my way to fixing them. As part of this I had to dance following his lead to see my error from the other point of view. Have to say that being led by Franck was an illuminating experience. What I'd give to have his technique! Ladies, you don't know how lucky you are! (To dance with him, and (separately) to not have to worry about leading.)

After that I didn't dance so much – only with a couple of beginners. With one of them I was trying out lots of returns to see if I could improve them, to perhaps some effect, but not much yet – definitely room for improvement.

The other was a first-timer and didn't want to dance any moves she hadn't just been taught, but as she got bored of them I introduced a few others. Because I'm still only a "beginner-intermediate" I wasn't able to lead her the way experienced dancers can, and so instead went into a sort-of teacher mode talking her through some of the harder-to-lead moves. In retrospect, I don't think that was very useful – sometimes it's easier to learn by just doing.

And by then I was tired and so left for home. :nice:

So, marks out of 10 for enjoyment? Let me know what you think!

What else can I say? Missed seeing some people I'd hoped to see, enjoyed meeting new people instead. Met someone who lurks on these forums but hardly ever posts – and I know there are quite a few others of you out there.

So, strawberries to all the cool people who were there, and raspberries to all the sad people who could have been there but weren't. :wink:

:eek: Better take cover behind that table again! :really:

Bye for now! :waycool:

[Franck]

Great to meet you officially Ducasi, though of course it felt like I knew you pretty well already!
So turned up nicely early but still lots of people coming in late. Bad people. :sad: :wink: They missed the fun "Ceroc Essentials" at the start.good thinking, and reading the 'are we teaching beginners properly' thread, it is a shame that so many 'Intermediate' dancer don't make the effort to join the Ceroc Essentials, as they introduce core concepts like 'weight transfer', 'footwork', balance, connection and basic spinning (depending on the week / beginners class), as well as providing a nice little warm-up and the opportunity for a laugh! :D

Onto the intermediate class. I think Franck must have taken pity on me after last week, as I found this week's moves much more manageable than last's. (Not that they weren't still pretty tough, so maybe it's just that last week was an off week for me.)Moves weren't easy, you're right, but last week's moves really relied on some strong technique to get right. Glad you felt you'd managed them by the end of the class though.

The first one had an extra wee turn bit which led into a lean (a baby lean?) I've always wanted to learn this lean thing since I saw it in action way back in January. (That's before I started – if there's one move that brought me to ceroc, that's the one!)It was a First Move Wrap & Lean. A very simple lean, designed to introduce the concept of safety (ie making contact with your partner before doing the lean, making sure you lead the lean, and that women don't throw themselves into it, not needing to lean very far to get the fun of the move, ladies keeping their legs together so they don't over-balance, etc...

The second variation on the first move we combined with the first one, but I guess can be done on it's own. I wish I could remember the correct names!!! It stopped the move as the girl came back round to the front and you'd lead a slide-kind-of-thing as you stepped away sideways from each other.

Not so good at this one. Franck spent a lot of time talking about how to do the footwork involved, but I was too busy getting the hands in the right places to worry much about my feet!First move Side-slide. A deceptively simple move in essence, but controlling the speed / direction of the step away is a great challenge and provided me with a great platform to teach 'Floor craft' by showing the men how they controlled the direction of the move to avoid crashes, as well as using your hands as breaks to avoid stepping to far away from each other.

Next up was some sort of accordion. Can't remember the exact name again, but you'd turn the girl one and a bit turns to your side and block and then reverse it. Repeat as desired.Single Handed Accordion (1). Another simple and fun move, but it brings up basic control of the return, and opens up doors for many variations.

Coming out of that we went into an arm-lock walk thing. Would swivel round, lock arms and go walkies!

Not so bad, but I could never get the arm lock done right. :sad:Arm Hook Walk. A new move (AFAIK) and one of my current favourites as the way the arm is hooked with your partner, you get a perfect connection (frame) which allows you to control movement in every direction, from a static swaying, to a forward / backward / circular walk or indeed a Mambo / Manhattan.

Anyway, I'm glad I could be of help later after the Intermediate class, as I mentioned, asking a Teacher / Taxi-dancer for advice doesn't mean they will give you a full blown critique of your dancing, but they really are best placed to home in onto the specific problem that is stopping you from achieving a specific move, so asking for targetted help (ie "I'm struggling with the 'Arm hook') can usually be sorted in a few minutes and save you weeks of frustration.

Keep the faith and enjoy dancing! :cheers:

[David Bailey]

s this my 11th or 12th class?
Hey, if that was your 12th, you're now Officially an Intermediate! Well done :)



Surprisingly he didn't seem to bring the crowds of fans I expected – maybe my theory was wrong. :confused:

That'll be the well-known seesaw effect - if there are lots of women over one week, they don't come back again the following week, so there are lots of men over, then they don't come back again the week after that, so... etc :)


The other problem I found was quite often I'd catch with my left rather than my right after the shoulder slide.
:confused: I agree - maybe it's me also being a leftie, but if you're doing a shoulder slide, with the lady's arm running slowly down your left shoulder, it certainly seems sensible to finish it by catching with your left, and it seems a little unnatural to catch with your right. If you want to catch with your right for the next move, I'd imagine a manspin would flow a bit better...

However, I'd guess that sometimes in a beginners class, the routine is there to teach you distinct concepts such as hand-sliding (!), rather than to create a flowing routine that would be natural in a freestyle environment. Hence occasionally it'll feel a bit stilted. Just a guess, I wouldn't like to second-guess Franck's teaching from 500 miles away :worthy:

But if that's right, the good news is that you've got the right instincts - the bad news is that you need to suppress them for that class :)


I ... went into a sort-of teacher mode talking her through some of the harder-to-lead moves. In retrospect, I don't think that was very useful – sometimes it's easier to learn by just doing.

:yeah: Teaching on the dance floor is very difficult. If you can lead a lot of different moves, I think most people, even absolute beginners, can follow them - they then usually quickly get the idea that they as followers don't need to know the moves, they just need to follow.


Met someone who lurks on these forums but hardly ever posts – and I know there are quite a few others of you out there.
Yes, come on you lurker people, put your heads over the parapet :D

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

I normally start off with a brief statement on how I felt the night went. This time I want you to rate how you think I felt on a scale of 1 to 10. (Hey, why should I do all the work here?)


Hey!
I think you looked as if you were enjoying yourself last night-maybe I could be wrong :what: but i'd say 8 (always the optimist :grin: )

I meant to say hi to Franck, but never had time-I will next time he visits us :nice:


I'd catch with my left rather than my right after the shoulder slide. This must be the an aspect of the left-handed thing.....I guess it can be off-putting for beginners, though should they really even notice?

I'd say no, when you are a beginner you are just trying to follow the lead with as few glitches as possible, (I should know,lol) so if you made that mistake with me, I didn't notice. Just remember for next time you do the move. As long as you tried your best. :D

I'll see you next week-hopefully not too early :wink:

Ashx

[ducasi]

Hey! Week 12!

Well guys, this is going to be the last week I post my "impressions". I think we're all getting a bit bored by it, especially as I'm now more in the swing of things.

So let's run through the usual process – start with some background; then through the evening; and finish up with a few choice comments on how I feel at the end.

So we're back to the usual teacher this week. Missed her. Franck was good, but it's always nice to go back to what you're used to. There were a few new things – got one of the free Ceroc CDs and was given the opportunity to buy some DVDs. Might think about that for the future.

Onto the class. Beginner class was a bit different in that we did the Ceroc Essentials™ in the middle of doing the arm jive swizzle. We also did an octopus, a first move push-spin, and wee variation on the back-pass.

Straight-forward. Pretty much everybody seemed to be doing OK – didn't actually seem to be many new-starts – at least all the women I danced with during the class were doing quite well.

During the first freestyle, I hardly got a chance to get the drink of water I so badly needed, I was in so much demand. Sometimes being in a minority is a good thing. :grin:

I don't think my performance matched the level of demand... I did all-right, but it's always difficult for me to get my brain in gear for the first few dances. Had to stick with very simple moves until then. I think I upped my game by the third or fourth dance though.

On to the intermediate class. The demo looked like it was hundreds of moves, but allegedly there were only four. :eek:

First was a side-to-side variation with a wrap where the girl had to use the other hand!!! It was pretty cool. Maybe my move of the week – it was certainly the easiest. Had a bit of a giggle with a girl who just couldn't get used to using her left hand. Even just after we had been taught this move she was getting it wrong, and then much later on she came round again and she was still trying to use her right hand. We managed everything else pretty well though, so we just had to laugh about it. :rofl:

Next up was a shoulder slide push spin. (Hey, got the full name!!! :D) This I couldn't do particularily well, as I couldn't get a convincing push as the girl stepped back. Quite often I'd miss completely! :what:

That led into a first move walk-around lean. (Not sure of the name.) Pretty good, but I prefer the lean that we did last week – it was easier! Quite often I wasn't in the right place for the lean – not good if the girl wanted to just lean in before I was ready!

Next was some accordion-type thing. Have I done an accordion-type thing before? I remember the name, but I didn't recognise the move. It had a couple of tours of the girl going round my front and back (actually, now I think about it, I don't think I was moving as much as I should have been :() before a wee spin off, and a return.

And that took us back to the side-to-side...

I enjoyed the class, even though I wasn't convinced I could do any of the last three moves particularly well. :whistle:

So with the class over, onto the freestyle! I wasn't in so much demand this time, but it was just as well as I was tired and thirsty and needed all the breaks I could get. Still danced a fair bit, maybe five or six times, adding up to over 10 for the night. That's probably a record for me, though I'm sure it's a tiny number compared with some folks, but I'm happy with it. :nice:

I got to practice a few of my intermediate moves, in particular the side-to-side and the lean things we had just done.

With the side-to-side because we had just learnt it, every girl I danced with assumed that every time I did a "let go", I wanted to do this move and catch her left hand rather than her right – and I really have no idea how I would indicate different. :confused: One lady I danced with though would catch with the left hand, but was expecting me to lead something other than the wrap. I couldn't figure out exactly how my lead was meant to tell her to wrap in rather that anything else she could have done instead. So two puzzles there. :confused:

While I was resting I had the opportunity to watch some of the dancers – one guy I know who hangs around here was there, and I've got to say, he's a really good dancer. :worthy: Sorry I didn't get the chance to say hello, but you did seem to be dancing non-stop!

Another guy I watched seemed to be making a meal of every dance he did – I think the meal was porridge the way he was stirring it. :sad: (I don't want to say any more though in case someone chastises me for being critical again – though he certainly wasn't a beginner.)

During the class and the freestyle I met lots more nice people, want to say a big "Hi!" to them here, even if they aren't reading this. Hope to see you again soon! :nice:

I left at about quarter past ten, very tired, but much happier than I'd been for a few weeks. Last week I asked you all to give a mark out of 10 on how much I enjoyed the class. I'd say last week was maybe just about a 7, and this week was at least an 8.5, bordering on a 9.

But that's enough about the night...

As this could be the last opportunity in this thread, I'd like to thank absolutely everybody who has helped me through these last 11 and a bit week (12 classes + 2 workshops)...

To the person who introduced to me to Ceroc, that's something I'll always be grateful to you for. :wink:

To the taxis – you guys are superb. :waycool:

To the other dancers, thank-you for the dance, for the patience, for the smiles. :nice:

And to the teachers without whom, etc, etc... :worthy: :worthy:

Biggest thanks though goes to all you people out there in forum land. I've been amazed at the warmth and generosity of you all, giving me the help and encouragement I've needed when things haven't gone well. I simply wouldn't still be dancing if it wasn't for you guys. :flower: :hug: :flower: :hug: :flower:

Maybe see some on you on Saturday, otherwise, see you round the forum!

:wink:

[MartinHarper]

With the side-to-side because we had just learnt it, every girl I danced with assumed that every time I did a "let go", I wanted to do this move and catch her left hand rather than her right – and I really have no idea how I would indicate different. :confused:

Three ways:
1) If I'm aiming to catch her left hand, I trail a hand across her back as she passes you. If not, I don't.
2) If I'm aiming to catch her left hand, I attempt to lead her to travel straight without turning (so her left hand is closest to me), whereas if I want the right hand, I attempt to lead her to both travel and turn a little. This is too hard for me, but I try anyway.
3) If I intend to take her right hand, my hand will be at a different angle, compared to if I intend to take her left hand. This information will come too late to the girl to fix the move (except when dancing to funeral dirges), but is useful feedback for her as she works to improve her following and acclimatise herself to my attempts to lead.


One lady I danced with though would catch with the left hand, but was expecting me to lead something other than the wrap. I couldn't figure out exactly how my lead was meant to tell her to wrap in rather that anything else she could have done instead.

This so puzzled me that I asked the teacher during the class, whereas I am normally shy and retiring. If I recall, my question went along the lines of:
"How do I lead the wrap-in bit without disconnecting my partners left arm from the rest of her body?".

The response was rather enlightening to me. In essence, the name "wrap in" is misleading. The name implies that the man is going to remain stationary, and the woman will wrap herself in, travelling towards him as she does. In reality, it seems that I should lead the woman to spin on the spot, whilst moving myself towards her.

I hope that's of some use, anyway.

[ducasi]

Three ways:
1) If I'm aiming to catch her left hand, I trail a hand across her back as she passes you. If not, I don't.
2) If I'm aiming to catch her left hand, I attempt to lead her to travel straight without turning (so her left hand is closest to me), whereas if I want the right hand, I attempt to lead her to both travel and turn a little. This is too hard for me, but I try anyway.
3) If I intend to take her right hand, my hand will be at a different angle, compared to if I intend to take her left hand. This information will come too late to the girl to fix the move (except when dancing to funeral dirges), but is useful feedback for her as she works to improve her following and acclimatise herself to my attempts to lead. I think I was doing (or not doing) all those things – maybe not the first one enough (I have a very subtle touch.) I'll put it down to anticipating due to us learning the move that night and watch to see if my lead is being understood in the future.

... The response was rather enlightening to me. In essence, the name "wrap in" is misleading. The name implies that the man is going to remain stationary, and the woman will wrap herself in, travelling towards him as she does. In reality, it seems that I should lead the woman to spin on the spot, whilst moving myself towards her. Hmm... That doesn't really match up to what we were taught though. Maybe that's because of the way we're taught – if the guys moved in on the wrap we'd all eventually end up on one side of the hall.

But how do you lead her to spin on the spot when she's two arm length's away from you?

Cheers!

[El Salsero Gringo]

But how do you lead her to spin on the spot when she's two arm length's away from you?

Cheers!In point of fact, you both move. And the reason that you don't break her arm wrapping her in is because she's not a sack of spuds that you're wheeling around. As you both bounce in from the side-to-side position she builds up her own momentum. It only takes a little indication from your right hand to your rear to start her frame turning, and her motion will automatically wrap her in to your side as you step towards her.

If one doesn't want her to wrap then one must be quite clear by not allowing her left hand to move to a position behind her left shoulder.

An inexperienced follower (or someone who's unhelpfully decided that one need 'assistance' in getting through the move) can misinterpret what one's lead was and try to wrap in or refuse to, accordingly. *That's* when one has to decide whether to go with what she's decided to dance, or to break her arms off by forcing her into the move you wanted. I suppose the choice depends on whether you ever want to dance with her again.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Hey Ducasi,

Here's a dumb idea that might actually give you a good insight into how to answer some of your own (very good) questions: why don't you find a friendly intermediate or advanced lady and do the beginner's class as a follower with her? Then ask a lady taxi-dancer (or a guy, if you're not embarassed) to lead you in a dance (I think you'll learn more from being lead by a guy because that's what most women experience.) If you do it now, rather than in a few years time then you can use what you learn to temper and adjust the leading of moves as you learn them, rather than years after, which might be harder.

[MartinHarper]

Thanks for that post, ducasi - it's reminded me to lead more travelling free returns. I used to have such fun confusing women with them when I first moved over from JazzJive.


How do you lead her to spin on the spot when she's two arm length's away from you?

Her left hand is in my right. I move our hands in a half-circle around her body. To do this, I have to move towards her, because of the geometry of the situation. She starts to spin on the spot because she has frame, and so her body follows her hand.

Personally, I try to avoid being two full arm lengths away from my partner, because it feels over-extended. I see lots of good Ceroc folks who do get that far away, and make it work.

[ducasi]

Here's a dumb idea that might actually give you a good insight ... Not a dumb idea, but an interesting one. A couple of time I've danced moves as the follower and found it very useful from a perception point of view. I wouldn't have thought to take a whole beginner's class as a girl at this stage in my learning, but maybe it'd be really useful.

Not sure my spins are up to scratch though! :wink:

[ducasi]

Oops! :blush:

Just realised I forgot to include the DJs in my mega thanks last night, though in fairness they were all covered in the other categories as teachers, demos, dancers or forum members.

Anyway, total respect to the DJs. It's such a hard job, and they tend to get little praise when the music's cooking and so much flack the rest of the time.

:clap:

[ducasi]

Thanks MH and ESG for the tips on leading. It's making more sense now. :nice:

Cheers!

[Jhutch]

Great thread!:grin::clap: Have read through most of it and it is interesting to see how similar the progression appears to have been. Glad to hear that i am not the only one who has had problems (and still does sometimes:blush: ) with doing loads of first moves:blush: :grin: (and i got told off for doing them wrong the other week as well!:blush: ) Quite good as i don't actually know any of the men:really: :blush: so have never really heard how things have gone for them.

[TurboTomato]

Great thread!:grin::clap: Have read through most of it and it is interesting to see how similar the progression appears to have been. Glad to hear that i am not the only one who has had problems (and still does sometimes:blush: ) with doing loads of first moves:blush: :grin: (and i got told off for doing them wrong the other week as well!:blush: ) Quite good as i don't actually know any of the men:really: :blush: so have never really heard how things have gone for them.

*puts hand up* :na: I do the first move thing as well :blush:

Danced at a new venue on Tuesday and asked a girl to dance who looked quite good. I completely lost it about half way through (I think I attempted to make conversation or something) and just ended up screwing up on both counts as I said about 3 words and then did what felt like 5 first moves in a row whilst looking rather embarrassed :blush: I asked the unfortunate girl to dance again a bit later on and I think I made a better hash of it 2nd time round. My regular dance partners know that the first move is my 'thinking' move (or as before, the 'I've lost it completely' move) and they start grinning as soon as I do more than 1 in a row :tears: :blush:

[ducasi]

Wow, a blast from the past! :blush:

Just been reading over the last few posts... Funnily enough that R-L wrap-in thing is still causing me bother as it seems most followers expect a lean from that position, while often I have a cool unwrap thing planned.

Typical result is either the girl heading to the floor or an awkward lean as I compensate...

It's definitely something I need to work on... I'm still learning... :nice: