Avoiding pain.

[johnthehappyguy]

I have searched without success, hence this thread.


.......I'd never turn anyone down based purely on their dancing ability (unless there's a pain factor involved here).....

Steve

Recently I was at a class, and there were many ladies who were painful to dance with.


Putting things rather simplistically:-

I have been told I am a good lead.

However I had particular difficulty with a lady who did not know "how to follow". Moves are anticipated incorrectly, and the lady will put in a "return" here or there if she feels like it. :eek:

My first reaction was to be firmer in my lead, however things turned into a bit of a wrestling match. :angry:

I tried to joke and say "who is supposed to be doing the leading" etc. :nice:

I also restricted my moves to those beginners moves which had been taught that night.

When this was unsuccesful, I stuck firmly to the moves being led in the same order as they had been taught.

Then I tried to protect myself from injury by anticipating what the lady might do next, and willed for the dance to end. Then kept willing it to end, then really willed for it to end and eventually I escaped from purgatory as the track faded..

I had a few good dances, however I had similarly poor dances with others at the same venue, which were almost as traumatic. :confused:

On the drive home, my shoulders were aching, which was a first for me.

Any advice, Please :tears: :tears: :tears:


johnthesomewhatsoreanddistressedguy :sad:

[El Salsero Gringo]

In no particular order....

-Turn up with both arms bandaged across your chest - if they can't reach to your hands they can't do any damage...

-Ask the girls to lead you - since they don't seem able to do otherwise, and practice the follower's part yourself.

-Try a different venue!

Seriously though - rather than wrestling matches, try just stopping for a couple of beats and locking your arms solid. As soon as she's got the idea that she's not going anywhere, start dancing again. Repeat as necessary.

How about asking the teacher to explain during the class what it means to follow - and that unled returns are not the done thing? If everyone's up to the same tricks then the teacher is the best person to put it right.

I suppose it depends on whether you *want* them to be more fun to dance with in the long run, or whether you just go dance with someone else instead. There's no point in dancing if it's painful and not enjoyable.

[drathzel]

I have searched without success, hence this thread.



Recently I was at a class, and there were many ladies who were painful to dance with.


Putting things rather simplistically:-

I have been told I am a good lead.

However I had particular difficulty with a lady who did not know "how to follow". Moves are anticipated incorrectly, and the lady will put in a "return" here or there if she feels like it. :eek:

My first reaction was to be firmer in my lead, however things turned into a bit of a wrestling match. :angry:

I tried to joke and say "who is supposed to be doing the leading" etc. :nice:

:sad:

Unfortunately these women do exist and no matter how much you try and follow the moves or try to anticipate where they are going to put themselves you still end up getting hurt! I have also tried to speak to the ladies and suggest they dont use thumbs/loosen up/stop leading but they actually dont listen. Its the same with some men. Not everyone can be good but as long as they are enjoying themselves and not dancing with or hurting me then thats ok! My view is that you try and talk to them about it while you are dancing but if they dont listen or think they are better than that then i just tend not to ask them to dance. (and again this is male and females! :hug:

[Gadget]

A couple of ideas - may, or may not be of use...

- Use BIG movements: stir returns, over-emphisise hand placements... basically make sure that the lady's body has to follow the hand.

- If the lady is managing to insert turns, then try and make your leads with a definite "Low" or "High" hand: Low hands should remain at waist level or lower, only rising to turn the lady - cut out any signals or blocks that rely on you having your hand high, and don't turn under your own hand; use a quick placement of shoulder-slide or man-spin variant instead.

- Use baskets, octopusses, arm-jives, 'ballroom' style first-moves... where you have both hands and the lady is close. Insert a few walks where you can keep her in close.

- Try going the other way: lead lighter with a greased hand. OK; not actual grease, but a light contact that will break when the lady trys to force anything.

- Follow: switch off all "I'm leading" thoughts and follow your hand; It may not teach the lady anything, but it will prevent injury.

- Try and convince her to close her eyes and trust you {:innocent:}: even if it's only for one move, you can then build on it and get her to try again.

- Stop trying to dance and try to teach her to 'lighten up'; "I'm sorry, this isn't working. Can you try...." "...Excelent, thank you; you are dancing a lot better."

[Gus]

Since I've been exiled to London, and so free of any teaching obligations, I've discovered the 'delights' of freestyle again ... AND IT HURTS :sad: Forget all the advice about how to avoid the pain ... the simple truth is that the pain shouldn’t be there in the first place! WHY do so many women jerk, yank and generally follow so badly?? I thought such complaints were just form a few whinners ... but after 2+ weeks dancing at a few clubs I've become really concerned about the number of really bad followers out there. Things got so bad that there are two clubs where I will not return to as my existing shoulder injuries have been made significantly worse. Is this just a London thing or is it a UK wide problem? If so ... what is so wrong with our teaching that we are allowing this to happen?

[Aleks]

My suggestion is you talk to the taxi dancers at the night.....maybe they could incorporate stuff about not yanking into their refresher session (I am assuming these were (relative)beginners you were dancing with). The teacher could also mention this as part of the class.

Another thought.....try suggesting that contact is maintained by only one/two fingers each - there's no way to hold on then.

One thing I think could be mentioned more often at a beginner class (or any class) is that each partner should be responsible for their own momentum and movement and neither should rely on the other to keep their balance.

[drathzel]

Is this just a London thing or is it a UK wide problem? If so ... what is so wrong with our teaching that we are allowing this to happen?

Nope its a uk wide thing i think. Although i sometime put it down to the fact thta i am a women lead and women follows must think i can't lead so they dont let me. When i feel this in class i sometime either go slower or faster than the teacher, i am hoping this reminds the lady that the LEAD is meant to be LEADING! :hug:

[drathzel]

My suggestion is you talk to the taxi dancers at the night.....maybe they could incorporate stuff about not yanking into their refresher session (I am assuming these were (relative)beginners you were dancing with). The teacher could also mention this as part of the class.

This is a good idea although when i have been trying to help out in taxi classes, i sometimes feel that even though the taxi is saying it, some of the women think it doesn't apply to them and they just switch off and do it as they were doing it before, even if you point it out.

I also feel that some people who have danced before or have done something similar think that because of this they are automatically good and dont listne either.

Oh dear i have gone off in a rant. I just feel that no matter what stage you are at you always have something to learn and should always listen and see if you can change something you are doing wrong.

:hug:

[Chef]

Is this just a London thing or is it a UK wide problem? If so ... what is so wrong with our teaching that we are allowing this to happen?

Sorry to say Gus but it is not just a London thing. I can only say that it does extend down to the South Coast as well. I can't comment on other area. Go to places where boom boom music is rare as the hand manglers find anything else tricky and they avoid those venues - which leaves you safe.

What is wrong with the teaching is that TECHNIQUE is never taught unless you go on good weekenders. Although it is taught at these weekenders there are those that just don't want to listen and keep coming back year after year just as painful to dance with. Sometimes this leads to the impression that things are getting worse when the reality is that you are getting better and others are standing still.

Few teachers feel motivated to teach technique because they feel it will scare punters off and that may lose them income. The standard MJ model works if you recruit newcomers, let them mangle for a few years before they either meet the partner of their dreams and go for some romance or decide that going home with sore shoulders once a week is not as much fun as it used to seem.

3 ways of avoiding sore shoulders for me.

1) lead with a light hand and when your own personal comfort level of load on you fingers/arms has been reached then let go. Sure, the woman won't know where to go but then she didn't know anyway.

2) As soon as you get to a new venue pick out the best dancer that you can find (or failing that the teacher or demo). Find the most public spot you can and dance your socks off for 2 or 3 tracks. I find that usually deters the very worst hand manglers fro asking you.

3) Just observe from about 10 feet from the edge of the dance floor and note those people that fall over when they do a return or fall backwards when they do a rock step (usually signified by the front foot toes coming off the floor). Look for people with flashy rings (sharp) and bangles (places to trap fingers). You now have a "avoid at all costs list". Don't stand at the edge of the dance floor. It makes you fair game for anyone on your "avoid list". Instead stand back from the floor and target the people that you want to dance with by moving directly towards them as the music is ending. Have a nearby reserve option in case they go for a second dance together as you don't want to be caught in the open where a hand mangler can pick you off.

The worst thing is coming up against people who have been dancing regularly for years and are still no better than the people that are doing their first 6 classes. You would have thought that plain curiousity would have made then ask "why does this hurt so much?".

Happy Dancing

[Gadget]

Is this just a London thing or is it a UK wide problem? If so ... what is so wrong with our teaching that we are allowing this to happen?Nope its a uk wide thing i think. Although i sometime put it down to the fact thta i am a women lead and women follows must think i can't lead so they dont let me. When i feel this in class i sometime either go slower or faster than the teacher, i am hoping this reminds the lady that the LEAD is meant to be LEADING! :hug:
I often do the 'put the moves together' bit one count behind the teacher; this "looses" the lady because she is not doing what is being called at exactly that time, but close enough to it being recognisable as what they are meant to be doing.
Leading moves through the class, I try to smooth them through the counts, making my hand move at a constant time - this means slowing them down in bits & taking them along in others; it actually feels like you are leading them through the move rather than the 'here,here,here' that they are being taught from the stage (and will try to anticipate themselves)

I must be blessed in that I have never had a partner who's following has hurt me*. I don't think I'm that strong to force them to follow my every lead... I am trying to think on what I do that could be the reason for this - my above posts are all that come to mind. If it's not my lead, it must be the number of ladies who actually do this are so small here I just haven't met them.

*... except when I put my feet where they are about to step ... or smack her hand into my face... or step too close at the wrong time and get an elbow in the chest...:tears::blush: Actually, the most painfull thing is when lady grabs onto my side when I'm doing a man-spin (or equivilent) instead of just sliding.

[drathzel]

I must be blessed in that I have never had a partner who's following has hurt me*. I don't think I'm that strong to force them to follow my every lead... I am trying to think on what I do that could be the reason for this - my above posts are all that come to mind. If it's not my lead, it must be the number of ladies who actually do this are so small here I just haven't met them.



you must just be blessed honey! :worthy:

:hug:

[Franck]

you must just be blessed honey! :worthy: I don't think he's alone, I've never been hurt by anyone's following either.
Some women insist on leading / and force themselves in any direction without paying attention to any lead but maybe it's the way I dance, I rarely fight it, I might mention a few things to make them relax, suggest they should take over the lead or sometimes ask them to focus on their right hand, and to go where it goes (this simple change of focus is usually enough to get them to improve greatly).
It could also be that I give them very few opportunities to grip my hand as I try to keep a 'touch' hold, and more often than not will be leading from their wrist / shoulders / hips / back of the hand, which doesn't offer them any opportunity to do any damage.

[Little Monkey]

I don't think he's alone, I've never been hurt by anyone's following either.
Some women insist on leading / and force themselves in any direction without paying attention to any lead but maybe it's the way I dance, I rarely fight it, I might mention a few things to make them relax, suggest they should take over the lead or sometimes ask them to focus on their right hand, and to go where it goes (this simple change of focus is usually enough to get them to improve greatly).
It could also be that I give them very few opportunities to grip my hand as I try to keep a 'touch' hold, and more often than not will be leading from their wrist / shoulders / hips / back of the hand, which doesn't offer them any opportunity to do any damage.

Your lead is simply FANTASTIC!!! :worthy: :worthy: Light, but most of the time even I understand what you want me to do!

When I've encountered women who won't follow my lead (even when I do it right! :wink: ), who clamp onto my hands like they're drowning, and the only rescue is to hold on tight - I normally just smile, and remind them to BREATHE. A lot of beginners are petrified, and are sooo tense, they try to memorize the whole routine they've learnt in class, thinking it might help them.... I tend to tell them NOT TO THINK, as they've got no way of knowing what's coming next, apart from following the guy's lead. And sometimes, jokingly, I tell them to loosen the grip on my hands, as otherwise my fingers will go blue and drop off... :rofl:

Most women, when they get a bit more comfortable with dancing, will start relaxing, and then they will follow much better. It sounds like the woman John was dancing with was a beginner, so her bad following might just be because she was nervous! If they don't get any better, well..... If I was a guy, I'd perhaps not ask her for a dance again.... That's what I do with guys who hurt me (yanking, gripping, using thumbs, throwing me into dips or drops etc). When I see them coming........I run in the opposite direction as fast as I can! :rofl:

Anyway, I do agree wholeheartedly with a few other people who's said they don't think enough technique is taught in ceroc. If very basic techniques were stresses early on, people would soon become better dancers, and they wouldn't develop bad habits from the beginning...

LM

[Trish]

Personally (as a woman who leads), I find that letting your arm go limp is the easiest way of avoiding injury. If a woman is determined to do her own thing and not following me, I tend to let her lead herself into whatever it is she decides to do until she's finished - I won't lead anything else. I then find eventually that she stops and looks at me a bit puzzled, and will say to her something like "you were doing such a good job at leading that I didn't like to interrupt you". This tends to work for a little while, she'll then do it again and you remind her again. After a while she tends to get the message! If she doesn't get the message I'll do Gadget's trick of leading her with her eyes closed, that seems to help quite a bit.

As various people have said though, there are some women who don't follow well even though they've been dancing for years. And there are both men and women who are terrible dancers that think they're great - these I avoid like the plague if I can help it. One particularly terrible dancer (man), I actually told that I won't dance with him any more, as he invariably pulls my arms out of their sockets and treads on my toes - I think he thought I was a bit mad, and I probably hurt his feelings, but hell it's better than pain :( !!! I just had a horrible thought - I hope I'm not one of them, I don't think so, as I've had quite few compliments over the years but perhaps that was people just being nice :eek: !!!

[drathzel]

I tend to let her lead herself into whatever it is she decides to do until she's finished - I won't lead anything else. I then find eventually that she stops and looks at me a bit puzzled, and will say to her something like "you were doing such a good job at leading that I didn't like to interrupt you". This tends to work for a little while, she'll then do it again and you remind her again.

I've tried this and gotten very dirty looks! Maybe its just my lead :sick:


I just had a horrible thought - I hope I'm not one of them, I don't think so, as I've had quite few compliments over the years but perhaps that was people just being nice :eek: !!!
:yeah:

[MartinHarper]

My first reaction was to be firmer in my lead, however things turned into a bit of a wrestling match. [...]

On the drive home, my shoulders were aching, which was a first for me.

Yeah, wrestling does that to me - using muscles I don't often use. I don't mind those kinds of aches. I'm more concerned about pulled muscles, etc - they make my muscles weaker, not stronger.

Anyways, you tried wrestling. Others suggest following: Gadget says "It may not teach the lady anything, but it will prevent injury". I've done both before now. I sometimes try a third way: I try to provide enough force in my intended direction that my parter can feel if she's mis-followed, but not so much as to end up wrestling her into following regardless. That means that we make lots of "mistakes", though.

[MartinHarper]

Women who clamp onto my hands like they're drowning, and the only rescue is to hold on tight

Nod. Sometimes I try to counteract this by making my own hold looser, but I find that tends to make them grip harder themselves, as if to compensate for my "wimpiness". At the moment, I'm experimenting with using my thumb more to grip onto their hand. My theory is that this will give them confidence that I have a hold on them, and they'll find it easier to let go a little. I figure it's worth trying.

[Minnie M]

Nod. Sometimes I try to counteract this by making my own hold looser, but I find that tends to make them grip harder themselves, as if to compensate for my "wimpiness". At the moment, I'm experimenting with using my thumb more to grip onto their hand. My theory is that this will give them confidence that I have a hold on them, and they'll find it easier to let go a little. I figure it's worth trying.
:rolleyes:
Don't get into bad habits Martin, if your followers are not following, direct them to the taxi dancers or the teacher - mind you I think we have been here before (too lazy to search for the thread)

Or maybe you need a 'one-to-one' with a dancer/teacher like DavidB or James Hamilton (as he is in your area) - both these guys are amazing leads and never use thumbs or pressure, they will give you tips

When I am leading and I get a 'back-leader' I just let them take over, easier that way and less painful :really:

[Andreas]

It is true that some ladies are a pain in the shoulder to dance with :D But then again, you are the guy, you decide what moves you do, you can restrain them by doing moves that do not provide them any room for 'interpretation'. The yanking is a bit more difficult but even there, if you have a strong frame they simply won't be able to yank your arm. The other extreme works too. If your arm is so relaxed that they simply can't lead themselves you can actually guide them by moving around them ;)

There is no hiding that I too prefer to dance with ladies that 1) do not try to lead me or anybody else and 2) who dance smoothly. But even the other examples can be restrained. Something to work on, ey :D

[Gus]

It is true that some ladies are a pain in the shoulder to dance with :D But then again, you are the guy, you decide what moves you do, you can restrain them by doing moves that do not provide them any room for 'interpretation'. True ... but by then it can be too late :( I learnt many years ago to only do double pretzels with partners I knew were 'safe' .. but even yo-yos were proving dangerous the other night.

HOWEVER my main point, as yet unanswered, is what is going fundamentally wrong that allows a preponderance of such dancing. I was speaking to some of the more experienced dancers over the last few weeks asking why they didn’t do lessons ... and the majority view was that they were fed up with dancers in the line pulling them around (male and female). Having spent a weekend workshop working on lead and follow I know how difficult it is to break these bad habits ... but why so allegedly intelligent people start with such habits in the first place?

[Little Monkey]

Nod. Sometimes I try to counteract this by making my own hold looser, but I find that tends to make them grip harder themselves, as if to compensate for my "wimpiness". At the moment, I'm experimenting with using my thumb more to grip onto their hand. My theory is that this will give them confidence that I have a hold on them, and they'll find it easier to let go a little. I figure it's worth trying.

Nonononononono! No thumbs!!! :(

But I have had the same experience as you: Loosen your grip (or just lead using two fingers), and they crush your hands in an effort to hold on even harder... :tears:

I have tried demonstrating to ladies what it will be like for them to do a return under my arm, if I was to keep a tight grip on their hands, and have demonstrated how this will be quite painful. For some, this has been an "aha!!" experience, and they've tried to loosen up a bit. For others, it's just no use. Whatever you say, it seems to go in one ear, and come out the other, without registering in the brains department on the way through.... :rolleyes:

Mostly, though, I do find people tend to relax more as they get used to the dance and the signals, and gain some confidence!

LM

[Minnie M]

:rolleyes:
Don't get into bad habits Martin,........(too lazy to search for the thread)[/I]

found it - make note of DavidB's post

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2705

[Andreas]

HOWEVER my main point, as yet unanswered, is what is going fundamentally wrong that allows a preponderance of such dancing. I was speaking to some of the more experienced dancers over the last few weeks asking why they didn’t do lessons ... and the majority view was that they were fed up with dancers in the line pulling them around (male and female). Having spent a weekend workshop working on lead and follow I know how difficult it is to break these bad habits ... but why so allegedly intelligent people start with such habits in the first place?

I find two explanations for that:

1) Teachers - you have a bouncy teacher, you will get bouncy pupils. The teacher may not actually bounce as much as the punters but nonetheless he/she gives the example and the parrots copy it. In my opinion this is no doubt the main reason for it. So your question should be 'how come somebody teaches with bouncy legs or hands'?

2) People are getting carried away. They just enjoy themselves so much that the only way to rid themselves of this excess energy is to put as much body action into it as possible. We all know that moving your hands to music is the most simple way to express your 'connection' to it.

Obviously these are my 'explanations' and opinions may differ :D

Regarding the pretzel, I don't do that move even in single execution with anybody who bounces as it used to really **** up my shoulders in the past ... during classes :blush:

Ladies who lead strongly in most cases will not enjoy dancing with me because I only do a handful of very simply moves just to protect myself.

[drathzel]

I find two explanations for that:

1) Teachers - you have a bouncy teacher, you will get bouncy pupils. The teacher may not actually bounce as much as the punters but nonetheless he/she gives the example and the parrots copy it. In my opinion this is no doubt the main reason for it. So your question should be 'how come somebody teaches with bouncy legs or hands'?.

I have recently encountered this, it was not bouncy but showy and the ladies and men tried to do this, making a complete balls up of it because they are only new! There should be a standard way of teaching (not all teachers have to freestyle this way but it would benefit the beginners specially, leting them develope their own style, as opposed to one enforced on them that may not suit them)




Ladies who lead strongly in most cases will not enjoy dancing with me because I only do a handful of very simply moves just to protect myself.

This is probably the best thing to do for you, not always the follow but to save yourself anyway! :hug:

[Gadget]

Nonononononono! No thumbs!!! :(
:yeah: no thumbs.


But I have had the same experience as you: Loosen your grip (or just lead using two fingers), and they crush your hands in an effort to hold on even harder... :tears:
OK, here I would use my thumb: to dissengage the lady's grip. I use my index finger as the contact point for the lead: the rest of my fingers can be used to slip free or pry myself loose.

I also think that as leads improve, they learn to lead lighter and dance with more ladies of a better standard who follow with a feather touch. They have fewer dances with 'true beginners' and like them less because they don't respond as well and some of the leads they ignore force the lead somewhere they didn't want to be. This leads to fewer dances with beginers, only dancing with better dancers and their lead hones to a fine artist's brush from the stubby stipple-brush beginnings. Since it so now so fine and delicate, it is more fragile and suceptable to damage.
Those of us who dance with everyone of every ability develop a more "chinese paintbrush" technique than the delicate porcelain artwork brushes with two or three hairs. {I think the anology works...:)}

[Little Monkey]

This leads to fewer dances with beginers, only dancing with better dancers and their lead hones to a fine artist's brush from the stubby stipple-brush beginnings. Since it so now so fine and delicate, it is more fragile and suceptable to damage.
Those of us who dance with everyone of every ability develop a more "chinese paintbrush" technique than the delicate porcelain artwork brushes with two or three hairs. {I think the anology works...:)}

How long did it take you to come up with this analogy, then? Had me in stitches! :rofl:

So...... When referring to "Chinese paintbrush" technique..... What did you have in mind? Calligraphy brushes? Potter's decoration brushes? Obviously you didn't mean silk brushes.......? :rolleyes:

Rather amused LM :D

[Gadget]

I was thinking on those big 'tear-drop' shaped ones that the large canvases are inked with - bigger than a caligraphy brush. See, it all depends on the pressure - more pressure, thicker strokes, light pressure, thinner strokes fo finer detail.

{:sulk: I still think it works as an anology :wink:}

[MartinHarper]

I'm feeling in a (long-winded, boring) mathematical mood, so... Suppose the level of grip is a number from 0-10, where:

0 = air leading
1 = fingertip leading
5 = mild discomfort
8 = pain
10 = torture

My aim point is to have my grip around 2, for Ceroc, or around 3 for JazzJive. Sometimes I dance with follows who are gripping me with a strength of 6 or so. I'm assuming that they're concerned that they'll "lose" my hand. I find that often, if I try to loosen my own grip down to 0-1, then they react by gripping harder - perhaps a 7, or even an 8. Perhaps this is because they subjectively feel me "slipping away"?

My theory is, if I increase my own grip strength to, say, a 4, then this will reassure them that I'm not going anywhere, and they will reduce their own grip strength to around 4. Avoiding discomfort and pain! *grin* It's just a theory, mind - I need to play around with it more to try to figure out what the variables are, and try to get a more coherent model of what's going on. Still, I'm quietly confident.

Obviously the long term fix is to improve the quality of my lead. That will mean that beginners will have much more confidence in my ability to control them with mere fingertips, their fear and anxieties will evaporate, and they will instantly follow with grace and style. That's won't happen overnight. Until then, it's a choice between:

A) Suffer pain. I'm selfish. Nope.
B) Not dance with folks who grip on. I was a beginner once. Nope.
C) Thumbs. Yeah baby, yeah!

Also, the forum clearly needs an Austin Powers smiley.

[ChrisA]

If so ... what is so wrong with our teaching that we are allowing this to happen?
Lots of things, not all the teachers' fault, although some of it is:

- mostly, little is said about technique in the average MJ class.

- even if it's mentioned at all, it's usually in a gentle, easily-missed, don't ruffle feathers, kind of way

- by the time anything much in the way of L&F is actually taught, bad habits are so ingrained that it's virtually impossible to remove them

- people, especially the ones that have been dancing a couple of years or more are mostly very unreceptive to feedback. Doubtless everyone here is different, but I don't think we're all that representative.

- it's hard to give the sort of feedback that would actually result in change, because it would require the ability to articulate exactly what was wrong, and what needed to change. This risks confrontation, which most people are averse to. And regrettably, whereas there are many teachers that teach well from the stage, the skillset required to change an individual's dancing is different, and rarer, IMHO.

It's not an easy problem to solve, and when you add into the equation most organisers' desire to get and keep the dancing equivalent of 'bums on seats', and their fear of alienating the people who don't want to know that they're painful to dance with, maybe it's not surprising that it hasn't been solved yet.

I've solved it for myself - I don't dance with people that hurt me anymore. But that's not really answering your question :flower:

Chris

[MartinHarper]

The worst thing is coming up against people who have been dancing regularly for years and are still no better than the people that are doing their first 6 classes.

No it isn't.

The worst thing is being on someone's "avoid at all costs" list. Not knowing why. When all you had to do was take your jewelry off. The worst thing is going to ask someone for a dance. And finding that as soon as they see you coming, they run off to the other side of the room; refuse to make eye contact; pretend they can't hear you; desperately ask someone, anyone, for a dance first.

The worst thing is wanting to dance with a great dancer. But you never seem to be in the right place to ask them. And they never ask you. And they might have. But your rock step was too big. And nobody told you. And you've been coming to regular weekly lessons for years. And the teacher's never mentioned it. Because they were scared it might put you off. And they find footwork is too hard to teach.

The worst thing is going to a dance, and seeing someone who is dancing their socks off. And knowing that they're not doing it for fun; not doing it to make their partner happy; just to deter you from ever asking them. The worst thing is being a slow learner. And being treated like it's deliberate. As if every night you pray to god - "please grant me poor balance and awareness of my body. There's a natural dancer at my local venue, who learnt real quickly, and I want to rub their face in how gifted they are".

Bah. It must be getting late. So much bitterness. And so wrong to take it out on Chef. He's just saying what lots of other people think. So carry on with your clever techniques to avoid dancing with incompetents, without having to face the horror of actually refusing a dance. Just, do me one favour, if it's not too much to ask. Don't complain about how tough it is, being a good dancer.

Thanks.

[johnthehappyguy]

....

The worst thing is being on someone's "avoid at all costs" list. Not knowing why.....

Martin,
Your post sounds really despondent. :sad:

There is a good dancer at one of the venues I go to regularly who has refused me a dance on several occaisons, I have danced with her friends who are of a similar standard to her, and they have, without prompting complimented me on my dancing. So her refusals are a bit of a mystery.

I feel I am in a similar position to yourself. I am planning to bite the bullet, and ask her why not ?

What is the worst that can happen ?

On a similar vein, but this time with a happier outcome:-

There is a good dancer who I had danced with about 5 times, she looks like a goddess etc. and the dances were just ok.

The next time I asked her, she, as previously; accepted, and I said, "will you do me a favour, I feel that we don't dance very well together, and i am not sure why, will you give me some feedback after the dance please."

This question ( which was not answered in words) seemed to break a spell, and we immediately danced a lot better, and have done so at least 6 times since.

Give it a try :D

johnthehappyandoptimisticguy :nice:

[Andreas]

I feel I am in a similar position to yourself. I am planning to bite the bullet, and ask her why not ?

Don't. There are a number of reasons why people create their 'avoid at all cost' lists. It is rude and should not be rewarded but submissiveness. You will give her the feeling of power if you confront her as it shows that you desperately wish to dance with her. Why? As you said, her friends are of similar standard and they DO dance with you. Point is, there are so many dancers out there that would love to dance with you. Why waste your time and energy on somebody who is not worth it? Just imagine you get the ilusionary dance with her and walk off the dance floor thinking 'what a waste of time'? Just ignore her.

In the past a girl has avoided me after a while for two reasons: because she was scared me doing too advanced moves (when in fact most of them were low leve Intermediate but she jumped straight into advanced being the gf of a teacher) and secondly because when she asked me what she should improve I told her. Too big ego I guess. So while I did enjoy dancing with her, I stopped asking because it was just going to be a waste of time.

[Gadget]

So carry on with your clever techniques to avoid dancing with incompetents, without having to face the horror of actually refusing a dance. Just, do me one favour, if it's not too much to ask. Don't complain about how tough it is, being a good dancer.
:yeah: :D
This thread was heading rapidly down the "eliteism" road - praising the virtues of having a select few dancers that you dance with. Personally, I don't care if you want to shun the rest of the dancing populous: it gives me a broader selection of dancers to choose from and improve with.

I'm not saying "Go ye and seek yonder ladies with arms of steel and wills of iron". I'm not condoning forcefull following or purposfully putting yourself in harms way: just that if you find yourself in this sort of situation, don't hold your tounge to complain about it later - fix it. :D

[Zuhal]

I have a theory about this.

A huge number of men have been introduced to dancing through the Modern Jive model and because they can enjoy themselves without too much effort they come back week after week. If you watch them, a very large percentage do not dance in time with the music and do not provide a clear lead.

What therefore is a poor lady supposed to do. Many of them are highly effective at recognising the start of classic move and then finishing it. OF COURSE. THEY HAVE TO.

I kid myself that I can lead so it always takes the first dance to control someone and give them the confidence that you know what you doing. As time goes on the lead can get lighter and lighter.

A much higher percentage of ladies dance with the music. Most of them are willing to be led but face sad disappointment with every new face.

Zuhal

[Gadget]

:D

Don't. Do.
There are a number of reasons why people create their 'avoid at all cost' lists. It is rude and should not be rewarded but submissiveness.
Yes; it's not very nice, but rather than highlighing their weakness, it could point you in the direction of improving yours.

You will give her the feeling of power if you confront her as it shows that you desperately wish to dance with her. Why?
No, it will give you the feeling of power because you are simply asking why she refuses to dance with you; curiosity. After the answer, you can sinply say "thank you for your opinion" and move to another dancer, or "really? let's see what I can do to fix that" and take her onto the floor. It shows that you are wanting to improve your dancing, not that you have any particular interest in dancing with her.

As you said, her friends are of similar standard and they DO dance with you. Point is, there are so many dancers out there that would love to dance with you. Why waste your time and energy on somebody who is not worth it?
But everyone is worth it. If you can gleam knowledge to make even more dancers love to dance with you, then where's the fault? The ones that already do dance with you may see an improvement and want to dance more.

Just imagine you get the ilusionary dance with her and walk off the dance floor thinking 'what a waste of time'? Just ignore her.
:what: I don't think I have ever came off the dance floor thinking that. I hope I never will. Do not ignore her; use her to sound out her opinion of your dancing - You don't need to take everything on-board, but it may give you an idea of an area to concentrate on.

In the past a girl has avoided me after a while for two reasons: because she was scared me doing too advanced moves (when in fact most of them were low leve Intermediate but she jumped straight into advanced being the gf of a teacher)
Did you dance with her in the past; when she was just starting? If so, you may have used moves too advanced for her to follow well or feel comfortable with - If it was me, I would try and tone down the moves I do with beginners, if I do a more 'advanced' move, I would praise any good following and finish with nice, easy beginner moves to restore confidence and a familure base.

and secondly because when she asked me what she should improve I told her. Too big ego I guess.
From this, if it were me, I would try and improve my tact. Perhaps only concentrate on one thing and get them to improve on that. Once it's taken in, move to something else. Don't just say "well, you do this, this and that when you should be doing the other... and you shouldn't do that.. .and should do this... and... and..."

So while I did enjoy dancing with her, I stopped asking because it was just going to be a waste of time.
How? You didn't want to see if any suggestions made actually worked? You deny yourself the enjoyment of a dance with her?

Tit-for-tat philosophy is not condusive to a friendly atmosphere or enjoyable night. You need to get out of London and up north. :D :hug:

[ChrisA]

The worst thing is being on someone's "avoid at all costs" list. Not knowing why.

There can be few people who have someone on their "avoid at all costs" list without good reason. If it's that bad to be on it, how much worse can it be to ask why?



The worst thing is wanting to dance with a great dancer. But you never seem to be in the right place to ask them.

This is an easy problem to fix, but it requires determination and preparation. You have to be not dancing at the end of the previous track, you have to get in the right place. If someone is in demand and you want to dance with them you have to put some effort into it. Relying on chance is not enough.



And they never ask you. And they might have. But your rock step was too big. And nobody told you. And you've been coming to regular weekly lessons for years. And the teacher's never mentioned it. Because they were scared it might put you off. And they find footwork is too hard to teach.

Regular weekly lessons are not going to be enough. If you want to dance with a great dancer (other than just to bathe in a bit of reflected glory), you are probably also the type that wants to become a better dancer. Which requires effort. More than once a week, workshops, weekenders, seeking feedback, watching what others are doing, learning to monitor your own body to see what you are doing, maybe even private lessons if you want to improve enough.



The worst thing is going to a dance, and seeing someone who is dancing their socks off. And knowing that they're not doing it for fun; not doing it to make their partner happy; just to deter you from ever asking them.

I don't believe this happens to any significant extent. Ok, occasionally there may be a reason someone behaves vindictively towards someone else, but it is not the norm.

Mostly IMO it is exclusively in the mind of someone who feels bad about their own dancing, and is seeking to feel better by blaming someone else.



Don't complain about how tough it is, being a good dancer.

I have no idea what it's like to be a good dancer.

But it's certainly tough to try to become one. :tears:

Chris

[ChrisA]

Do.

... big snip...

Tit-for-tat philosophy is not condusive to a friendly atmosphere or enjoyable night.
Very strongly agree with all this. :cheers:


You need to get out of London and up north. :D :hug:
But not this. :really: Mostly people aren't like this anywhere, in my experience.

Chris

[Hamish_A]

HOWEVER my main point, as yet unanswered, is what is going fundamentally wrong that allows a preponderance of such dancing. I was speaking to some of the more experienced dancers over the last few weeks asking why they didn’t do lessons ... and the majority view was that they were fed up with dancers in the line pulling them around (male and female). Having spent a weekend workshop working on lead and follow I know how difficult it is to break these bad habits ... but why so allegedly intelligent people start with such habits in the first place?

I know RobC at Fleet makes a point, during the repeat beginners class, to cover lead & follow, no thumbs etc etc. This means that for the first few weeks new dancers get taught that the death grip (from either side) is "A Bad Thing". It does not prevent some of them from picking up bad habits - but at least it reduces the number quite significantly. It also means that whenever I feel the need to comment on grip/lead & follow they have already heard it from a teacher & I'm just reminding them.

On a similar vein, it always amazes me when you get a guy who has been dancing <6 weeks who says to their partner who I know is excellent "Your really getting the hang of this" - or something in a similar vein - usually after crushing her fingers in every move. Usually, it seems, these are the guys who never really progress, so I guess it's a barrier they put up where they believe they already know what they are doing so switch off from learning. Personally , I'm still learning (just very slowly).

Personally I enjoy dancing with partners of every standard. I think that as a lead I get inspired by a great partner & enjoy helping beginners realise that "I can do this". I rarely get yanked around to the point of pain - although my fingers do get crushed occasionally. I have always been a proponent of definate low/high hand position which helps & If I have a partner who tries to lead then I throw in a few simple variations & they usually get the message. If not - then I'm quite happy to speak up in as diplomatic a way as I can manage.

[Hamish_A]

I have a theory about this.

A huge number of men have been introduced to dancing through the Modern Jive model and because they can enjoy themselves without too much effort they come back week after week. If you watch them, a very large percentage do not dance in time with the music and do not provide a clear lead.l

Sad but true. It's much harder, usually, for the men to learn to dance to a good standard, just because (IMHO) they have to learn the moves & often their brains get overloaded with thinking about (hopefully), the move, timing, moving their feet, hand positions, what the lady is doing, what move will I do next. Like learning any new skill, until some parts of this become automatic it's hard to deal with it all and some part of it will just be plain wrong.


What therefore is a poor lady supposed to do. Many of them are highly effective at recognising the start of classic move and then finishing it. OF COURSE. THEY HAVE TO.
I agree to some extent, but they should be careful if they can to not LEAD the man, just carry on the move without a lead, a subtle but distinct difference.

[Lory]

I'm going to put my own spanner in the works now! I don't think it's always to do with how well or clearly the moves are lead. :D

If I'm dancing with someone who's slightly out of time, I find this the hardest thing of all to cope with and 'I' probably feel like i'm fighting all the way! :angry:

I find it extremely hard to give into dancing out of time. (or to what I perceive as being the wrong timing :innocent: )

Also, some people interpret the music in slightly differently ways, if I was to choose a preference, I like a laid back partner, who drags each move out to the very last possible moment. I don't like dancing with men who are slightly ahead of the music (and they probably don't like dancing with me either! :cool: )

Another point, Picking up from what ChrisA said...

I can clearly remember my first Ceroc lessons and going to the beginners review class, the particular Taxi men at that venue, lead VERY firmly, almost brutally and I thought this was the 'correct' way, I had no reason to question it, I had no bench mark with which to compare! And surely they were the experts after all? ;)

So anyone learning with these men as examples, will probably learn to be rough too! :sick:

[Minnie M]

......If I'm dancing with someone who's slightly out of time, I find this the hardest thing of all to cope with and 'I' probably feel like i'm fighting all the way! :angry:

I find it extremely hard to give into dancing out of time. (or to what I perceive as being the wrong timing :innocent: )

Also, some people interpret the music in slightly differently ways, if I was to choose a preference, I like a laid back partner, who drags each move out to the very last possible moment. I don't like dancing with men who are slightly ahead of the music (and they probably don't like dancing with me either! ........
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Maybe we should be given a metronome (bad spelling sorry) on joining, like a pedometer, to be worn until timing is learnt :D

[Chef]

Good heavens.

The subject of this thread was "avoiding pain" and that was exactly the subject that I responded to. I was not saying "how to be elitist" or "how to be aloof". Nor was the thread subject "how to dance with every new dancer in the room".

It was "how to avoid pain"

With me, beginners have a 6 months grace period when I will forgive them absolutely anything and I will be gracious and as encouraging as anyone could want. I don't feel it is my mission in life to train every beginner on the dance floor because 1) that is what taxi dancers are PAID for and 2) I travelled a long way and paid good money to have a GOOD time. To me having a good time definately does not involve having my shoulders wrenched, fingers clamped and twisted off, skin ripped from fingers, fingers trapped in bracelets. So if you are still doing that after 6 months (or in 3 cases I know, 7 years) then I figure youe either don't care or just hard of understanding.


You have a duty to your dance partner to give them the best dance that you are capable of at that time and it is a duty that both parties have. So as far as I am concerned I don't care what level you are. I only care if you have the DESIRE to improve.

I NEVER try to teach people on he dance floor. On the other hand if someone ASKS then I will but try to put it in terms of "If you tried doing it this way then that might be better" rather than "you are doing that wrong".

So if you feel you are on someones "avoid at all costs" list then you have a small number of options.

You can either ask why or you can keep your mouth shut on the basis that there are plenty more fish in the sea.

If you ask then you can either see that they have a valid point and try to do something about it or you can disagree and decide to do nothing about it.

Personally I like to seek advice from anyone that had demonstrated that they can do it well and try to work on their advice both off and on the dance floor.

If we are still on the subject of "avoiding pain" then it is vital to identify and avoid the "happy manglers" (those that don't find out because they don't care) and spend more time with people that at least share your own aim of being a better dancer week by week and year by year (at whatever point of that journey you both happen to be).

If I ask someone to dance then I don't have the right to be accepted. I have to earn it and I try to do that by being better each time somone encounters me.

Happy Dancing

[Trish]

I've tried this and gotten very dirty looks! Maybe its just my lead :sick:

:yeah:

I'm sure your lead is fine, most ladies I've danced with are gentler and more aware of what could potentially hurt than a lot of the men (with the exception of men who can also follow! :waycool: )

Perhaps they cut me some slack as it's often beginners who I find these problems with when I'm taxiing. I have sometimes said this type of thing to women and got dirty look, but they're generally the ones that think they're great (when they're not) - in which case I'll often avoid them!!

[drathzel]

I'm sure your lead is fine, most ladies I've danced with are gentler and more aware of what could potentially hurt than a lot of the men (with the exception of men who can also follow! :waycool: )

Perhaps they cut me some slack as it's often beginners who I find these problems with when I'm taxiing. I have sometimes said this type of thing to women and got dirty look, but they're generally the ones that think they're great (when they're not) - in which case I'll often avoid them!!

I have been told my lead is quite gentle so as not to hurt the follower!

Maybe we just need to persevere and help these dancers! :nice:

:hug:

[Chef]

Bah. It must be getting late. So much bitterness. And so wrong to take it out on Chef. He's just saying what lots of other people think. So carry on with your clever techniques to avoid dancing with incompetents, without having to face the horror of actually refusing a dance. Just, do me one favour, if it's not too much to ask. Don't complain about how tough it is, being a good dancer.

Thanks.

I am sorry Martin but I can't resist replying to this (I did try). See my comments preceded by **

Bah. It must be getting late.

**12:39am according to the time stamp on your post.

So much bitterness.

**Why Bitterness? Of all of the emotions that you could have had, why bitterness. Bitter about what?

And so wrong to take it out on Chef.

**Well I can take it since I was the one to stick my head out over the parapet. It might as well be me as anyone else.

He's just saying what lots of other people think.

**It is just what has turned up in those little conversations at the sides of dance floors that dancers have. I am saying what I think and what a lot of other dancers have said to me. I have always found that although the truth may hurt at times, that it does in the end set us free. So we all might as well know it.

So carry on with your clever techniques to avoid dancing with incompetents, without having to face the horror of actually refusing a dance.

**There are only two people on this dance planet that I know of that are so dangerous and unpleasant to dance with that I would actually refuse to dance with if asked directly. There are 16 (yes, I sat down and thought about it) that I would use evasion tactics on but if asked to dance would accept as graciously as my sinking heart may allow (and try to ensure my true feelings are not visible on my face) and use "damage limitation tactics" on. Out of the hundreds of people that I meet and dance with every week that doesn't seem that bad to me.

Just, do me one favour, if it's not too much to ask. Don't complain about how tough it is, being a good dancer.

**Since it is you and you asked so nicely I will do you this favour. I NEVER claimed to be a good dancer, nor did I say that avoiding being mangled was tough. It is like everything. The more opportunity that you get to practice the better you get at it. The first trick is to identify that TINY number of really dangerous people to avoid. This is completely different to identifying the really good dancers that you would love to dance with. The vast majority of us fall between these two descriptions. If you do want to get to dance with the really good dancers then you must realise taht they are going to be in demand and you will not be the only one targetting them. Nigel Anderson and and Victor Andeke even have little queues forming. All the women know where they are in the queue and are quite orderley about it. The best women are similar and you won't happen upon them by chance. So if you want them you will just have to wait in line like I do.

Happy Dancing

[Gadget]

Regular weekly lessons are not going to be enough. If you want to dance with a great dancer (other than just to bathe in a bit of reflected glory), you are probably also the type that wants to become a better dancer. Which requires effort. More than once a week, workshops, weekenders, seeking feedback, watching what others are doing, learning to monitor your own body to see what you are doing, maybe even private lessons if you want to improve enough.
Just to point out that if you want to improve, but can't go to every night's dancing, can't attend workshops or weekenders, can't get private lessons... etc. it does not mean you can't improve.
In fact you may get better improvement than the fanatic because you are not constantly bombarded with new stuff: the lessons get a chance to sink in.

If you want to dance with a great dancer, just ask them. Your ability does not come into the equation. :waycool:

[ChrisA]

If I ask someone to dance then I don't have the right to be accepted. I have to earn it and I try to do that by being better each time somone encounters me.

Stonking post, L.

This is the essence of it all, as I see it.

I don't always succeed in earning it, but I don't blame anyone else but myself.

C

[ChrisA]

Just to point out that if you want to improve, but can't go to every night's dancing, can't attend workshops or weekenders, can't get private lessons... etc. it does not mean you can't improve.

Of course. You just won't improve as fast as you might if you put in more effort.



In fact you may get better improvement than the fanatic because you are not constantly bombarded with new stuff: the lessons get a chance to sink in.

This might be true if there's a risk of overextending yourself.



If you want to dance with a great dancer, just ask them. Your ability does not come into the equation. :waycool:
Rubbish.

Of course it does.

If you want their acceptance to be based on a desire to dance with you (as opposed to accepting a dance with some random person of unknown qualities), then there is a responsibility on you to become someone they want to dance with.

Otherwise, it's charity.

Charity is good. But I'm not sure it's what most people want.

Chris

[Gadget]

Of course. You just won't improve as fast as you might if you put in more effort.
Effort? So by not attending more classes, workshops, etc is down to a lack of effort? Some people have familys, jobs, expenses and a life outside of dancing: just because they cannot does not mean that they are too lazy or lack the desire to improve. :mad:


This might be true if there's a risk of overextending yourself.
If? So you can take in every nuance of every class and every workshop you have attended? I am still recalling and (trying to) put into practice stuff from workshops two/three years ago! I pick up something new every time I dance. It takes time to actually filter from the brain into action. If you go from one to the next and the next and the next... how much can you take away from each?
If you only have the one class you can attend, you make the most of it and learn as much as you can from it.



If you want to dance with a great dancer, just ask them. Your ability does not come into the equation.:waycool:
Rubbish.
Of course it does.
If you want their acceptance to be based on a desire to dance with you (as opposed to accepting a dance with some random person of unknown qualities), then there is a responsibility on you to become someone they want to dance with.
Their acceptance is based on your asking. If you are a good dancer, you will be the one accepting.
If you want to be judged as worthy to be danced with by these people, feel free to bow and scrape to them. If you find that to be a motivational factor to improve, good luck. I would rather dance with a chair than someone who is looking to rate me rather than dance with me.


Otherwise, it's charity.
Charity is good. But I'm not sure it's what most people want.
You may feel like blessing those less tallented with your time and skills is a chartable thing to do. Such a marter; devoting so much of himself to these poor unfortunate souls; suffering and putting himself through the degredation of having to dance with lesser people.
PHA! :mad:
It should not be "charity". ever. I feel humbled and honoured that any lady accepts my request for a dance. Whether they have countless titles and a queue of men, or are sat nearvously in a corner on their first night. I dance with them because I want to dance with them - not out of pitty, charity, self sacrifice... not because all the better ladies are already on the floor... not because they are pretty or wearing slinky clothes... I want to dance. I would like to share the current peice of music with them. I want to see how I can use them to paint a dance on the floor. I want to smile, laugh and move to the music.

"charity". :(

Ability is irrelevant. Just ask and most dancers will dance with you; no matter your ability. Most dancers will be glad that they are dancing rather than sitting. Most dancers will enjoy the dance and the music, no matter if you know one move or one hundred.
If you see me not dancing, please ask. Rest assured, my acceptance will not be for charity. :flower:

[Gary]

Effort? So by not attending more classes, workshops, etc is down to a lack of effort? Some people have familys, jobs, expenses and a life outside of dancing: just because they cannot does not mean that they are too lazy or lack the desire to improve. :mad:

I think you and ChrisA are understanding different things by the word "effort".

Maybe if you replace it with the word "work"? Doing the classes and workshops (and practice outside, or whatever) is the work/effort you need to put in (unless you're naturally gifted) to improve.

I'm pretty sure that ChrisA is not suggesting that the reason some people don't put in that work/effort is that they are lazy or that they lack desire. There are bunches of reasons why some people may not choose to (or be able to) put in as much effort/time/work on their dancing as others. The fact remains, though, that you need to put in the effort/time/work to improve (or, as I said before, be naturally gifted).

[MartinHarper]

It is just what has turned up in those little conversations at the sides of dance floors that dancers have. I am saying what I think and what a lot of other dancers have said to me. I have always found that although the truth may hurt at times, that it does in the end set us free. So we all might as well know it.

I know.
I had an emotional, rather than logical, reaction to your post. I'd been talking to a Lindy chick about how the scene there isn't as friendly as the Ceroc scene, and then I read your post again, and it seemed all too familiar. *shrug* You hit a nerve. Like I said, unfair to take it out on you.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program on "avoiding pain". This week - Dr Jekyl shows us how to avoid emotional pain by going to bed already.

[Minnie M]

....... I'd been talking to a Lindy chick .........
chick :angry:

[Chef]

Ability is irrelevant.
Then why bother ever going to any lessons?



Just ask and most dancers will dance with you; no matter your ability.

That is because they don't know what they are getting - yet. If you are persistently bad to dance with you will find that people will start using evasion tactics on you. You will then be doomed to lurk around the dark corners of your venue asking the new people who know no better to dance. If that is all you aspire to then good luck to you.



Most dancers will be glad that they are dancing rather than sitting.
Some dances that I have had have been nearly as unpleasant as dental root canal filling. On those occasions I would rather have been sitting rather than dancing.



Most dancers will enjoy the dance and the music, no matter if you know one move or one hundred.

Try dancing one move only with every woman that you dance with for the next six weeks. I would be interested to see if it changes the number of women that are keen to dance with you.



If you see me not dancing, please ask. Rest assured, my acceptance will not be for charity. :flower:

What criteria do you use for accepting a dance then? Is there any reason that you could imagine for turning a dance down?

[ChrisA]

So I would have my daugher go without a birthday present and party so I could attend a weekender. I have to tell her she can't go swimming or to playgroup because I need the cash to attend another class. Damn, just not putting in enough effort there!

There are lots of things I choose to put no effort into, simply because I have other priorities. I'm not attaching any value judgement to the word "effort".



Yes, without desire and practice, you won't improve. But the suggestion was that the only way to get this practice was to attend workshops, weekenders, classes, private lessons. What about standing on one foot at the coppier, spinning in the kitchen, having a burl in the livingroom once the kids are in bed, gliding up and down stairs, leading the shopping trolly in Asda... you don't have to attend anything more than you currently are to help improve your dancing; all you need is the desire.

Standing on one foot will improve balance, sure. Practising smooth movement is good too. I never said that no improvement is possible without spending huge amounts of money and time.

But the improvement you can achieve by doing things other than training that is quite focused is quite limited.

And to say that all you need is the desire is nonsense.



I don't want to be judged by my partner on how they think I am dancing -
Yeah, well dream on. :D


Never shocked or offended at refusal.
Maybe I've misunderstood you... the impression I've formed of you is of a militant anti-hotshot, critical of anyone who doesn't dance with everybody and anybody, all the time. If that picture is true of you and the people that go to your venues, then the norm would be to have offers accepted all the time, and for it to be quite shocking if anyone were to refuse. And certainly not for it to be humbling whenever anyone accepts the offer of a dance.

If that picture isn’t true, then of course I apologise unreservedly :flower:



To claim that beginner dancers are in need of your charity is degrading, demeaning and insulting. To both the dancers and true charities.

Hey, I never said anything about beginners. I've always said that beginners are lovely. :flower:

I get a lot of pleasure dancing with beginners, so it's not a chore.

Ok, I probably used the word charity a little loosely. But at the end of the day, there are occasionally dances that I accept (or even ask for), even though I just know they are going to be much more for the pleasure of my partner than for me - except of knowing that they liked it – and as with all my dances, I try and ensure that’s the case.

That's what I meant.

I simply do not believe that anyone gets an equal amount of pleasure from dancing with everyone.

[Gadget]

Sorry, some dialogue posted here has been moved outside, but it was a bit cold, so I'm in warming my hands again...


Ability is irrelevant.Then why bother ever going to any lessons?
let me qualify that and put it back in context: Your ability should not dictate who you ask to dance. Beginners should not feel that they can't approach "good" dancers and ask them to dance. Ability is irrelevant to who you ask and IMHO should be irrelevant to who you accept.



Just ask and most dancers will dance with you; no matter your ability.
That is because they don't know what they are getting - yet. If you are persistently bad to dance with you will find that people will start using evasion tactics on you. You will then be doomed to lurk around the dark corners of your venue asking the new people who know no better to dance. If that is all you aspire to then good luck to you.
? eh? Most dancers will dance with you; no matter your ability. Did I say anywhere, or give the impression that remaining a 'poor' dancer was something to aspire to? :confused:
If you consider yourself to be of "poor" ability, then you obviously are aware of your own dancing. Most dancers will dance with you. If you no-longer consider yourself a "poor" dancer, but people are evading you, then seek out a taxi dancer: something is wrong.



Some dances that I have had have been nearly as unpleasant as dental root canal filling. On those occasions I would rather have been sitting rather than dancing.?? :tears: I really am sorry to hear that. Why did you let it progress to that stage? Why didn't you stop and say "Ouch!"? Change the way you lead? This dancing thing is meant to be fun - if it's not, why continue?


Try dancing one move only with every woman that you dance with for the next six weeks. I would be interested to see if it changes the number of women that are keen to dance with you.?? six weeks? If by six weeks you only know one move, then you may have only attended one class - If that's all you can lead, then go for it! Again; have I said to stagnate your dancing? I think that you would have to try really hard to only know one move after six weeks of dancing.


What criteria do you use for accepting a dance then? Is there any reason that you could imagine for turning a dance down?... the music stopped...? Nope, still can dance... A chainsaw weilding maniac just hacked off one of my legs...? Nope, just wait untill I get a prosthetic one...
Otherwise it's only a posponment I ask for: I'm promised to someone else... I've just had three dances with you in a row and someone else wants to dance with me... If I don't releave my bladder I'll be dancing in a puddle... let me grab a mouthfull of water... I just ripped my trousers in that last dance and have to change them... I promised I would meet someone, and this would make me late...
I can't think on anything else?

[Gadget]

before I answer the below post directly, what was getting to me was this simple premis: A beginner's first thought about their own level is that they are poor dancers. Reading this thread from that point of view is very discouraging and would put me off ever asking anyone better than me for a dance: You are rating people and deciding on if/how you will dance with them. A beginner will rate themselves as a "bad dancer", apply it to your scale, and go away feeling worse.
I think that you need to seperate the "bad dancers" who have no self awareness and have a greater potential to cause you injury and "poor dancers" who are just learning.


And to say that all you need is the desire is nonsense.
No, I don't think so: If you have the desire, then you will find a way. You will do these little things and think on how they could be applied to your dancing. You will improve.
OK, a workshop, lesson etc will help you, but they are not the only way to do it.


Maybe I've misunderstood you... the impression I've formed of you is of a militant anti-hotshot, critical of anyone who doesn't dance with everybody and anybody, all the time. ...
If that picture isn’t true, then of course I apologise unreservedly :flower:
:rofl: How can I be critical of anyone? I have no idea who's being refused or who's just danced twenty tracks in a row and wants a breather - I'm too busy dancing!
I am against the 'hot-shot' behaviour and eliteism. I believe that MJ is primarily a social dance rather than a performance dance: as such, a dancer's priority should be their partner before any technique or moves. (That means not making them feel uncomfortable or putting them in perl)

Militant? :rolleyes: :rofl:


I simply do not believe that anyone gets an equal amount of pleasure from dancing with everyone. Equal? Every one is different. There is pleasure to be had from each; quantifying that is not something I have even thought about. At the end of the night, I have danced, I have had fun, I go home happy to be a part of the MJ family.

[ChrisA]

(That means not making them feel uncomfortable or putting them in perl
As in necklace?

:innocent:

[Gadget]

no, the singer... she works down the harbour now :innocent:

[MartinHarper]

I was given one really good, concrete, piece of advice (on the forum, I think?) for dealing with women who have the over-sized step-back that has been mentioned as one cause of muscle fatigue when dancing.

What I was told was to take a small step forwards following a return, rather than backwards. By adjusting where my feet are, the rest of the body is automatically set up to handle any "yanking". As a method of avoiding pain I find it works very well, and it was an easy adjustment to make. I found other suggestions (eg, letting my arm go floppy) were much more harder.

[Zebra Woman]

I was given one really good, concrete, piece of advice (on the forum, I think?) for dealing with women who have the over-sized step-back that has been mentioned as one cause of muscle fatigue when dancing.

What I was told was to take a small step forwards following a return, rather than backwards. By adjusting where my feet are, the rest of the body is automatically set up to handle any "yanking". As a method of avoiding pain I find it works very well, and it was an easy adjustment to make. I found other suggestions (eg, letting my arm go floppy) were much more harder.

Yes that works for me too... :cheers:

Do men do this during the class? Is that why sometimes during beginners classes everyone seems to end up one side of the room?

[Trousers]

Yes that works for me too... :cheers:

Do men do this during the class? Is that why sometimes during beginners classes everyone seems to end up one side of the room?

Nah thats where the bar is!

[JoC]

Just re-discovered this thread.

John, did it help and are you pain free now?

[johnthehappyguy]

Just re-discovered this thread.

John, did it help and are you pain free now?


Yes Joc,

I found many of the responses very helpful, and have applied them.

I braved the situation and have danced a week ago with the beginner who prompted the trhread, she had improved a bit, and did not yank as hard.
She still liked to throw in the odd return when she felt like it tho. :mad: :tears:

I have been dancing for about a year, and up until around three months ago, I would regularly get my glasses knocked off, probably about once every 3 nights. Since that time, I must have improved a bit as they have not got knocked off for a couple of months.

I experienced a different sort of pain a few days ago at freestyle MJ event. :sick:

A woman approached me and asked for a dance, I had not danced with her before, and as far as I know did nothing to offend her. :what:

I accepted and we started dancing, however it was like something out of a slapstick comedy.

It seemed like every time she got the chance she would try to bash me, either with her hand or with her shoulder, often pulling my hand across so that I hit myself as well.

I tried all the moves I could think of to try to keep some distance between us, however impacts still happened.

It was not a fast track, and I tried to consciously remind myself to keep to the beat in case that was the problem.

It was a bit of an enigma, with other dancers I have tripped and slipped and led things badly pulling my partner off balance, and head butted a girl ( well 3 girls actually ) around the abdomen. - Although these incidents are getting rarer thankfully.

Never have I had so many bumps in one encounter.

Part of life's rich tapestry I guess. :confused:


johnthemuchhappierguy :nice:

[JoC]

I accepted and we started dancing, however it was like something out of a slapstick comedy.
Never have I had so many bumps in one encounter.
johnthemuchhappierguy :nice:

I've occasionally had those type of dances, I wonder if it's a wavelength thing? Sometimes it happens with partners I normally have a pretty good dance with too. :confused:
I seemed to have a whole evening of such dances a month or so ago and got really fed up that my following must have been getting worse (had maybe been reading some of the earlier posts in this thread and got nervous!), thankfully at session number two for that week normal service seemed to be resumed (I'm not commenting on what normal service is...). I suspect on that bumpsome evening I had, either I was unlucky, on another planet, or my brain just wasn't coping with following maybe because I was tired or just addled. Maybe the lady was having one of them nights!