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MartinHarper
16th-February-2005, 11:01 PM
Do you prefer dancers who have lots of self-confidence, perhaps even arrogance, maybe those who think they are better dancers than they are?
Do you prefer dancers who are humble, perhaps are better dancers than they think, maybe those who are nervous and anxious about their dancing?

Which is best?

Clive Long
16th-February-2005, 11:09 PM
Do you prefer dancers who have lots of self-confidence, perhaps even arrogance, maybe those who think they are better dancers than they are?
Do you prefer dancers who are humble, perhaps are better dancers than they think, maybe those who are nervous and anxious about their dancing?

Which is best?

Neither

Dreadful Scathe
17th-February-2005, 12:36 AM
interesting question - and if its between the 2 then its easy, its better to dance with someone who has confidence. This is very true in a competition, less so in a social dance and not at all true when its not about dancing :) Talk about a strict poll and a very general one at that ;)

MartinHarper
17th-February-2005, 12:45 AM
I figured if I allowed the option for "neither", everyone would pick that, and I'd be none the wiser. :)

Minnie M
17th-February-2005, 01:04 AM
I know more cr@p dancers that are arrogant than good ones :really:

(they think they are great, I know this for a fact - they have told me) :rolleyes:

Northants Girly
17th-February-2005, 01:04 AM
I figured if I allowed the option for "neither", everyone would pick that, and I'd be none the wiser. :)Which category would you say you fall into Martin? :confused:

Minnie M
17th-February-2005, 01:08 AM
:flower:

changed my mind :o

Clive Long
17th-February-2005, 01:15 AM
I figured if I allowed the option for "neither", everyone would pick that, and I'd be none the wiser. :)

Ok, I won't be such a smart ar5e.

Confidence, confidence.

Tits and teeth darling as we used to say at Stage School.

False modesty trying to hide a craving to be told how marvellous you are. It's pitiful.


I know more cr@p dancers that are arrogant than good ones

Bullseye Miss M




(they think they are great, I know this for a fact - they have told me)


Noooooo !! That I gotta see !!



CRL

MartinHarper
17th-February-2005, 01:46 AM
Which category would you say you fall into Martin? :confused:

Someone once whispered in my ear "you're a great dancer, but you're a bit anxious". That was in Lindy. I feel more confident in MJ.

Andreas
17th-February-2005, 01:53 AM
I know more cr@p dancers that are arrogant than good ones :really:

(they think they are great, I know this for a fact - they have told me) :rolleyes:

Too true. People who display arrogance because they think they are great clearly overestimate themselves.

Gadget
17th-February-2005, 02:03 AM
Who I dance with? I don't mind - the arrogance is normally a show-off; I can give as good as I get with this. The demuir type I can lead into subtle moves and draw her out more.

Who I am when I dance? Definetly not nearvous or anxious, perhaps a little humble; so since there are only two options I would have to be in the "arrogance" band. To be honest other peoples opinion on my dancing has vary limited impact; I have enough confidence in my own abilities as a dancer that I can shrug off insults and temper down extravagant compliments.

Banana Man
17th-February-2005, 02:10 AM
Do you prefer dancers who have lots of self-confidence, perhaps even arrogance, maybe those who think they are better dancers than they are?
Do you prefer dancers who are humble, perhaps are better dancers than they think, maybe those who are nervous and anxious about their dancing?

Which is best?

I prefer self-confident, but not arrogant. Thankfully in London there are plenty of ladies that fall into this category. :nice: :flower:

Andy McGregor
17th-February-2005, 02:17 AM
I dance with the woman/man in my arms. There is no other partner at that time so I dance for/with them. I "prefer" no other partner I am theirs for that whole track :flower:

Lory
17th-February-2005, 06:55 AM
I like to have a giggle when i'm dancing and I think I'm much more likely to be able to have a laugh and a bit of banter with someone who's got a lot of self confidence (and maybe a bit arrogant) cos their ego allows you to be cheeky and take the mick in a fun way and you know it's water off a ducks back. :na:

If you, or the confident one makes a mistake during the dance, you know it's not going to ruin the dance or ruin their evening, so you can relax. ;)

If I sense someone's feeling worried or nervous, I start to feel slightly responsible for their enjoyment of the dance, I worry if I go wrong, they are going to get upset and have their already fragile confidence knocked even further. :sad: And I find, keep praising all the time gets quite wearing :sad:
Mind you, the look of relief on some peoples faces when they've made it through a whole track with no major hiccups can be very rewarding! :D

I sometimes think I might one of the dreaded ones Minnie mentioned, I know I'm not the best dancer in the world but then again I don't really care, ;) nowadays I'll ask 'anyone' to dance, no matter who they are. :waycool: I give it my best shot and if they don't like it, I, I, I, errr...... :eek: :sick: WHAT! Of course they like it! :innocent: :whistle: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

ChrisA
17th-February-2005, 08:30 AM
I sometimes think I might one of the dreaded ones Minnie mentioned
No risk of that at all :flower:

jivecat
17th-February-2005, 10:35 AM
I dance with the woman/man in my arms. There is no other partner at that time so I dance for/with them. I "prefer" no other partner I am theirs for that whole track :flower:


I haven't a clue how to vote. How can you tell from the outside, anyway? If you don't feel confident, the next best thing is to try to look confident.

It's sometimes hard to achieve what Andy is talking about in the remark above, but is the only way forward IMO. Anything less seems a bit pointless, in human terms, if not in dance terms.

I have occasionally met people who wildly overestimate their ability (or are foolish enough to mention it!) but they tend not to be my favourite partners. But that might be because they can't dance, not because they're arrogant! And arrogance is not the same as confidence anyway.

My most memorable dances this week were with a guy whose hands were palpably trembling with fear when he danced with me - but he asked for another one at the end. He'd been dancing 4 weeks, and had never met me before, I hasten to add. :innocent:

And the other was with a friend who said "Help me out here, I'm having a cr@p night." But he danced just fine.

Minnie M
17th-February-2005, 10:59 AM
Someone once whispered in my ear "you're a great dancer, but you're a bit anxious". That was in Lindy. I feel more confident in MJ.

hmmm.......... I have seen you dance lindy :whistle: and I have danced in a Lindy class with you :whistle:

Speaking as someone who does both styles - I find the Lindy dancers fall into the 'arrogant' category more. they appear to be more wrapped up in their tenchical ability and range of choreographed moves - MJ dancers are more humble and appear to enjoy the dance more

The above is a generalisation - some of my best friends are fantastic Lindy dances and are NOT arrogant

Lynn
17th-February-2005, 11:14 AM
I have no idea what is going on in someone else's mind when I am dancing, and to be honest I don't think about it much, I'm concentrating on the dance. If they tell me they are nervous then I would concentrate on completely following their lead (and resist any temptation to 'play' :blush: ), to build up their confidence. I'm not sure how I would tell if someone was over-confident by actually dancing with them, maybe easier if watching (or talking to them!). But I would still dance with them (unless they were really arrogant, in which case they would never ask me!)

I can much more easily think about this question from my own perspective - and it very much depends on who I am dancing with and where I am dancing. I have never been remotely nervous dancing here in Belfast, but I was petrified at Britroc! If I am dancing with someone 'on my level' I am comfortable and relaxed (and probably dance better), but if its with someone I know is a much better dancer than me then I am likely to be a bit nervous and more self-conscious.

And as I only really dance every few months, I do tend to spend the first few dances apologising for missing leads etc (and I know I shouldn't, I'm trying to stop, it doesn't enhance the dance!).

TheTramp
17th-February-2005, 11:54 AM
I think that 2 points that could be raised here, is that confidence isn't the same as arrogance. And that confidence on the dance floor shouldn't be mistaken to imply that confidence exists anywhere else for that person, other than on the dance floor....

bigdjiver
17th-February-2005, 12:04 PM
I think that more than half of experienced dancers think that they are better than the average experienced dancer because we all have slightly different ideas of what makes a good dancer, and aim towards that ideal. In many cases it is not delusion, just a different ruler being applied.
Nervous and anxious is never good, and neither is arrogance. Enough humility to be open to new ideas and to learn is, and so is the confidence to know that you can achieve if you work hard enough.
I have to have enough confidence that I can do enough to make a dance worthwhile for my partner, otherwise I would not ask them. I do not like it when I am wrong. I want to see at least one genuine smile.
Perhaps I am fortunate, but I know very few dancers that think far too much of themselves, and none that I would describe as arrogant.

Lory
17th-February-2005, 12:23 PM
I think that 2 points that could be raised here, is that confidence isn't the same as arrogance. And that confidence on the dance floor shouldn't be mistaken to imply that confidence exists anywhere else for that person, other than on the dance floor.... :yeah:
Something else I like to add is... An experienced dancer doesn't always equal a confident dancer and the beginner dancer doesn't always equal nervous and humble...

I've met a fab guy recently who's only been dancing about 3months and I absolutely LOVE dancing with him, he's got exactly the right attitude to learning. He asks loads of questions, laughs out loud when he cocks up, :rofl: takes risks, is ready to take constructive criticism, shouts YEAHHHH when it goes right, mutters sweet obscenities when he can't grasp something :really: but he keeps having a go! He makes me crack up, :D his enthusiasm and zest are infectious and even though he's still only doing the basics, he's the perfect partner! :worthy: :cheers:

Lynn
17th-February-2005, 02:31 PM
I think that 2 points that could be raised here, is that confidence isn't the same as arrogance. :yeah:
I would actually go further and say that confidence is an awareness of your own ability and confidence in that level (in whatever area of life), wheras arrogance is a lack of awareness, an over-estimation of your level of ability.

Humility is a realisation of how much you have to learn and will mean that you do learn, but being nervous or anxious is a hindrance to learning. (That's why the best teachers are those who can get people to relax!)

So the best combination to either be or dance with is someone confident enough in their own level of ability to really enjoy dancing with any partner, but humble enough to be open to learn more!

jivecat
17th-February-2005, 06:02 PM
:yeah:
I would actually go further and say that confidence is an awareness of your own ability and confidence in that level (in whatever area of life), wheras arrogance is a lack of awareness, an over-estimation of your level of ability.

Humility is a realisation of how much you have to learn and will mean that you do learn, but being nervous or anxious is a hindrance to learning. (That's why the best teachers are those who can get people to relax!)

So the best combination to either be or dance with is someone confident enough in their own level of ability to really enjoy dancing with any partner, but humble enough to be open to learn more!

It is good to be confident because it implies a certain level of trust in other people that they will respond positively to whatever is being offered to them. Arrogance, however, implies that the views of others are not worth much but that their good opinion is taken for granted anyway.

Dreadful Scathe
17th-February-2005, 06:58 PM
I think that 2 points that could be raised here, is that confidence isn't the same as arrogance. And that confidence on the dance floor shouldn't be mistaken to imply that confidence exists anywhere else for that person, other than on the dance floor....
indeed, confidence can come across as arrogance on the dance floor but its certainly not the same thing. Also people can be arrogant about their dancing but not about anything else in life, everyone dances and handles the dance differently.

A good example is the statement earlier about people dancing right at the edge of the dance floor. Some can take that as arrogant behaviour (bleedin' show offs :) ) but there are clearly legitimate reasons for doing this - I do it myself and I only manage occasional spurts of confidence at the best of times :) Who knows, maybe Ive been thought of as arrogant before! My opinion is : people are far too opinionated ;)

bigdjiver
19th-February-2005, 11:48 AM
MJ is very versatile dance-form. It can be just social, for the benefit of the partners, and it can be performance, for the benefit of spectators. I have no problem whatsoever with some people performing, and very occasionally relinquish the pleasure of dancing to watch, and enjoy.

Andreas
19th-February-2005, 01:26 PM
MJ is very versatile dance-form. It can be just social, for the benefit of the partners, and it can be performance, for the benefit of spectators. I have no problem whatsoever with some people performing, and very occasionally relinquish the pleasure of dancing to watch, and enjoy.

These two are not exclusive of each other. Well, let me re-phrase that: They should not be exclusive of each other :wink:

bigdjiver
19th-February-2005, 08:24 PM
These two are not exclusive of each other. Well, let me re-phrase that: They should not be exclusive of each other :wink:I agree. It is why I went back to "or can be" and typed "and can be". :grin:

TheTramp
4th-March-2005, 03:15 PM
I was thinking more about this thread recently. And in talking about it with a couple of people, and, I have to say, in relation to a couple of specific cases and individuals recently.

I think that there is a problem within the dance world. It's not a major problem. But it definitely exists. And the problem, for want of a better description, I will call the 'Lovey effect'.

As has been mentioned before, we are (at least, a substantial percentage are) within the dance world, a bunch of luvvies.

We're very keen on telling everyone how fantastic they are, how wonderfully, amazingly, stupendously they dance or teach, or play such fantastic music. And then we wonder why people become arrogant and start believing their own 'press'.

I'm all for, and have no problem with, paying compliments where I think that they are due. Some people will naturally attract more than others. But I think that it definitely goes way, way too far.

When I'm DJing, if someone enjoys the set I play, then I think that it's great if they post that, or even better, come up and tell me on the night. I'm glad that they enjoyed that particular set. And I can almost guarentee that they won't enjoy the next one, or the one after that, or the one after that quite as much. That's life. You definitely can't please everyone all of the time.

What I don't really want to see is something written along the following lines (and this is a paraphrased collection of all the things that I recall having been seen on the forum):


XXX is the greatest DJ ever to walk on this planet. They are the only DJ playing all the fantastic new tunes, while still managing to dig out forgotten and lost gems. Every track they play on any night is a total winner. They can't possibly ever put a foot wrong. All hail XXX

This goes for dancers:


XXX is the best dancer anywhere. No-one else can possibly compete with them. Dancing with XXX has changed my life (and possibly healed my sick child, and made the dead to walk again!)

And teachers:


XXX are the best teachers that money can buy. Definitely A-list. Or quite possibly, leaving the A-list teachers behind

Some of the emails/posts I've read recently have left me feeling quite amazed at the wording that people have used about the people that they apparently worship, their friends, people they are promoting, and in a couple of more disturbing cases, themselves. And, as I said earlier, it's no wonder that the people involved start to believe what they hear or read about themselves.

And, of course, the sad thing (just using the DJ example), is that probably for everyone who thinks that the set was fantastic, there's probably someone who didn't really enjoy it, or at least, nowhere near as much. I've heard both ecstatically good comments, and cringingly bad comments about several 'top' DJs recently. Often about the same set!

Maybe it would be nicer, and make better reading, if we were all just a little more circumspect in the praise dished out. It certainly might help to keep all our ego's in check.

Don't really know why I started all this rambling. Just felt a need to get it off my chest I guess. Please note that I'm not excluding myself (as a dancer, teacher or DJ) from any of the above comments. I'm no better, or worse than anybody that I'm thinking about when I'm writing this nonsense. I've been accused of being arrogant before now, and probably will again. Though, I am trying. (Possibly very).

I'm sorry, I forgot to use several smileys that seem to be required when talking about certain people on the forum. So, I will add them in now.....
:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

TheTramp
4th-March-2005, 03:19 PM
I should have added into the last post....

Let the flaming of Steve begin!! :devil: :tears: :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
4th-March-2005, 04:06 PM
We're very keen on telling everyone how fantastic they are, how wonderfully, amazingly, stupendously they dance or teach, or play such fantastic music. And then we wonder why people become arrogant and start believing their own 'press'.Isn't it the same issue that a few people have with some of the more forthright postings on the Forum? That is, some people take what's written here far far too seriously - both good and bad.


I must admit, I totally agree with you about the smileys. Perhaps Franck could find some way to ration them?

TheTramp
4th-March-2005, 04:15 PM
Isn't it the same issue that a few people have with some of the more forthright postings on the Forum? That is, some people take what's written here far far too seriously - both good and bad.
Ah. I'm not just talking about what's written on the forum though. I'm talking about the whole package. What people say, the gossip, the rumours. And what's written on the forum, and in other places as well too...

Yogi_Bear
5th-March-2005, 12:16 PM
A good example is the statement earlier about people dancing right at the edge of the dance floor. Some can take that as arrogant behaviour (bleedin' show offs :) ) but there are clearly legitimate reasons for doing this - I do it myself and I only manage occasional spurts of confidence at the best of times :) Who knows, maybe Ive been thought of as arrogant before! My opinion is : people are far too opinionated ;)
I always prefer the edge of the dance floor, and will actively discourage my partner from heading towards the middle, especially when it is particularly crowded. This is for two reasons. Firstly there is much less danger of bumping into other dancers at there will not be flying limbs and bodies coming from all directions. Secondly because I can orient myself with the edge of the floor and dance in a slot, which I generally prefer. Does this make me over-confident or a show off? I don't think so. I see it as good floor management.

MartinHarper
5th-March-2005, 06:37 PM
I always prefer the edge of the dance floor [...]there is much less danger of bumping into other dancers.

On the same note, the stage often looks really tempting...

Clive Long
5th-March-2005, 07:17 PM
On the same note, the stage often looks really tempting...

It's part of the dance space on the HMS President and people take it in turns. Not for the faint-hearted .

When you coming into London Martin?


Ah. I'm not just talking about what's written on the forum though. I'm talking about the whole package. What people say, the gossip, the rumours. And what's written on the forum, and in other places as well too...

Gossip? Rumours? I never get to hear any of it. Lory? Lory! Where is that woman when you need her?

By the way Trampy I thought your posting about "praise-excess" was the most erudite and perceptive thing I have read on the forum - in fact the most fascinating piece of analysis I have read on any subject anywhere. Have a big :hug: from me.

Clive

Yogi_Bear
5th-March-2005, 09:51 PM
The wording of the poll suggested the following. If you make the wording more consistent and classify dancers as either confident or nervous, and as either arrogant or modest, then you have four potential combinations.

Confident and arrogant
These dancers have a very strong belief in their own ability but are unable to avoid coming across as conceited and self-important. It's horses for courses: probably but not inevitably a very experienced dancer, and you could learn a lot from dancing with them if you could cope with the overbearing attitude.
Confident and modest
These people have an equal belief in their ability but have married this with an unassuming and self-effacing approach. Probably the safest bet all round and in the long run probably the source of your most rewarding dances.
Nervous and arrogant
These dancers are probably the rarest of the three types, managing to combine a lack of confidence with an undue sense of their own self-importance. Probably best avoided altogether!
Nervous and modest
These lack both the confidence and the ego. Probably the typical beginner, they will need support and encouragement but will value your advice and help in developing their abilities. A dance with them should be enjoyable and instructive for both if you approach it with the right attitude.

I would prefer to dance most of the time with the confident and modest, but some of the time with the nervous and modest.

Piglet
5th-March-2005, 10:25 PM
Confident dancers - I learn more from and have more of a giggle with

drathzel
6th-March-2005, 12:02 AM
I cant decide on the above because with confident dancers i can often feel intimidated but with nervous dancers i can feel that i am intimidating them (not in a i'm a great dancer way but maybe in the way that i have been dancing longer)!

So there is no clear cut answer. I like to dance with people who can have a laugh with! :hug:

Gadget
6th-March-2005, 12:27 AM
the problem, for want of a better description, I will call the 'Lovey effect'.

As has been mentioned before, we are (at least, a substantial percentage are) within the dance world, a bunch of luvvies.

We're very keen on telling everyone how fantastic they are, how wonderfully, amazingly, stupendously they dance or teach, or play such fantastic music. And then we wonder why people become arrogant and start believing their own 'press'.

I'm all for, and have no problem with, paying compliments where I think that they are due. Some people will naturally attract more than others. But I think that it definitely goes way, way too far.
Yes,... and No. The main "problem" is just that dancing is so much damn FUN! Compare it to other joys and good feelings in people's lives: Dancing is a relativly small effort for such a high. Many times in an evening you can experiance the pleasures of the dance floor. You are actually a participant in the good times; rather than just a spectator who is laughing at someone/something, or an inactive body that is subjected to being thrown about in a funfair ride. {well, depending on your partner of course :whistle:}

So the "wow","amazing","brilliant night",... comments are understandable. Personally, I think that my life has more "colour", more "contrast", and is generally better for my involvement in MJ. The fact that this sometimes spills out into OTT compliments and comments is a good sign IMHO. Long may it continue.

MartinHarper
6th-March-2005, 11:10 PM
If you classify dancers as either confident or nervous, and as either arrogant or modest, then you have four potential combinations.

Other folks have touched on this. I agree, in a way: there is a subtle difference between self-confidence and arrogance in dancing. However, it's not a very visible difference. Often I find that someone I consider to be a self-confident dancer, while others find them arrogrant, or vica versa. In any case, I find that self-confident dancers and arrogant dancers share similar dancing styles.


The main "problem" is just that dancing is so much damn FUN! Compare it to other joys and good feelings in people's lives: Dancing is a relatively small effort for such a high. [...] I think that my life has more "colour", more "contrast", and is generally better for my involvement in MJ.

It's not surprising to find that a dancer feels that way about dancing. Lots of folks feel the same way about whatever hobby they enjoy - dancing is scarcely unique in generating such feelings.

Tramp's comments reminded me of the Natalie and Yuval video that was linked on the forum. Stellar dancing, certainly. At the end of the performance, I saw one person doing the :worthy: thing, and then a couple more saw them, and joined in. Clearly it wasn't enough to just express their appreciation by applauding: they had to make a big thing about how appreciative they were, and how their appreciation was so much deeper than everyone else's appreciation. Yuck.

Clive Long
7th-March-2005, 12:17 AM
<< snip >>
At the end of the performance, I saw one person doing the thing, and then a couple more saw them, and joined in.
Clearly it wasn't enough to just express their appreciation by applauding: they had to make a big thing about how appreciative they were, and how their appreciation was so much deeper than everyone else's appreciation. Yuck.

Yuck ???

Martin, you know I love you dearly but what are you going on about?

Surely the most natural way for a dancer to express and recreate the joy they experienced from witnessing a routine is try to reproduce it in their own bodies ??

Sometimes I despair for you.

Come to Hammersmith (even I will brave this) get hammered, get sweaty , then we will talk.

Clive (slightly the worse for a couple of bottles of damn fine claret but convinced he is right on this)

TheTramp
7th-March-2005, 12:20 AM
Yuck ???

Martin, you know I love you dearly but what are you going on about?

Surely the most natural way for a dancer to express and recreate the joy they experienced from witnessing a routine is try to reproduce it in their own bodies ??

Sometimes I despair for you.

Come to Hammersmith (even I will brave this) get hammered, get sweaty , then we will talk.

Clive (slightly the worse for a couple of bottles of damn fine claret but convinced he is right on this)
I think that you should lay off the claret Clive. At least while reading and responding to Martin's posts! :whistle:

The way I read Martin's response, was that the people applauding the routine appeared to be trying to outdo each other in the way that they were showing their appreciation of the routine.

Rather than anything to do with dancing.

MartinHarper
7th-March-2005, 12:26 AM
Surely the most natural way for a dancer to express and recreate the joy they experienced from witnessing a routine is try to reproduce it in their own bodies ??

They weren't doing that.

They were doing the :worthy: thing. IE, they were raising both hands high above their heads, then bending down at the waist in a mock grovel/worship thing. I'm sure that in reality it was done with the best of feelings, but it didn't come across very well on film.

(especially the tenth time I watched it. Great clip.)

Clive Long
7th-March-2005, 12:30 AM
They weren't doing that.

They were doing the :worthy: thing. IE, they were raising both hands high above their heads, then bending down at the waist in a mock grovel/worship thing. I'm sure that in reality it was done with the best of feelings, but it didn't come across very well on film.

(especially the tenth time I watched it. Great clip.)

Misread what you wrote - happens often

I agree - yucky, yuck. :sick:

CRL

Gadget
7th-March-2005, 12:54 AM
It's not surprising to find that a dancer feels that way about dancing. Lots of folks feel the same way about whatever hobby they enjoy - dancing is scarcely unique in generating such feelings.
I think I may dissagree with you there: dancing is a one-on-one, interactive activity. The only other hobbies that have this are combatative reather than colaborative, or are X rated.

I have done a million hobbies & pastimes (a slight exaduration perhaps, but lots anyway) each invove a small group of enthusists and 'the rest'. most are a challenge to yourself and a chance to show what you can do. None really involved being directly responsable for someone else. Those that were non-competative were solo and just happened to be done with like-minded individuals. I can't think on anything that comes close.

TheTramp
7th-March-2005, 01:12 AM
Yes,... and No. The main "problem" is just that dancing is so much damn FUN! Compare it to other joys and good feelings in people's lives: Dancing is a relativly small effort for such a high. Many times in an evening you can experiance the pleasures of the dance floor. You are actually a participant in the good times; rather than just a spectator who is laughing at someone/something, or an inactive body that is subjected to being thrown about in a funfair ride. {well, depending on your partner of course :whistle:}

So the "wow","amazing","brilliant night",... comments are understandable. Personally, I think that my life has more "colour", more "contrast", and is generally better for my involvement in MJ. The fact that this sometimes spills out into OTT compliments and comments is a good sign IMHO. Long may it continue.


It's not surprising to find that a dancer feels that way about dancing. Lots of folks feel the same way about whatever hobby they enjoy - dancing is scarcely unique in generating such feelings.


I think I may dissagree with you there: dancing is a one-on-one, interactive activity. The only other hobbies that have this are combatative reather than colaborative, or are X rated.

I have done a million hobbies & pastimes (a slight exaduration perhaps, but lots anyway) each invove a small group of enthusists and 'the rest'. most are a challenge to yourself and a chance to show what you can do. None really involved being directly responsable for someone else. Those that were non-competative were solo and just happened to be done with like-minded individuals. I can't think on anything that comes close.

Hmmm. Lots of hobbies and interests I've had give me just as much damn FUN as dancing. Whether they be as part of a team, as in a small group, or even on my own - for example, reading a great book, or a great gym workout :what:. And there are plenty of people who would find far more fun in other activites than dancing, without needing to pander as much to the 'lovey effect'. I've never really come across anything like it before.

Perhaps if you were able to travel the country, and attend the events, and meet the people concerned over a period of time (rather than just seeing the posts and results on the forum), you would have more understanding of what I mean.

Incidentally, I have to say, my original post was more about the response that such praise generates in people, rather than about the simple fact of dishing it out. Kind of in relation to what was being discussed on the thread - which started out about confidence and humility, though arrogance managed to sneak in from somewhere!

Though, I do feel somewhat discomforted about almost actually staying on topic for once.

Lory
7th-March-2005, 01:46 AM
I find that self-confident dancers and arrogant dancers share similar dancing styles.

That's strange and interesting because I feel the total oposite. The biggest difference to me and that's the confident dancer will 'include' me in their dance, whereas the arrogant dancer will show me how they can dance, often at the detriment of my enjoyment. :sad:

The confident dancer won't mind lowering their standards to meet that of their partner, they don't feel the constant need to prove themselves and do complicated flashy moves to make themselves look good, they don't see a problem with going back to basics, they also have the confidence to laugh off mistakes. :nice:

Dreadful Scathe
7th-March-2005, 12:04 PM
That's strange and interesting because I feel the total oposite. The biggest difference to me and that's the confident dancer will 'include' me in their dance, whereas the arrogant dancer will show me how they can dance, often at the detriment of my enjoyment. :sad:

I think the difference between watching someone dance and following someone is very different. Also a dancer could appear unselfish when dancing but still arrogant about his dance ability :). I assume Martin, as a leader, was talking about watching dancers, not following them.

Clive Long
7th-March-2005, 02:20 PM
Perhaps if you were able to travel the country, and attend the events, and meet the people concerned over a period of time (rather than just seeing the posts and results on the forum), you would have more understanding of what I mean.

Trampy,
What leads you to believe, or evidence do you have, that people who post praise on the forum do not attend events outside their local patch?


And there are plenty of people who would find far more fun in other activites than dancing, without needing to pander as much to the 'lovey effect'. I've never really come across anything like it before.

"without needing to pander to the lovey effect. I've never really come across anything like it before."
You have obviously never been subject to the insincere praise and barely concealed back-stabbing of a local amateur dramatic or operatic group. The comments on the forum are tame in comparison to the envy, vitriol and insincere flattery meeted out at those places.

Clive

TheTramp
7th-March-2005, 03:13 PM
Trampy,
What leads you to believe, or evidence do you have, that people who post praise on the forum do not attend events outside their local patch?

"without needing to pander to the lovey effect. I've never really come across anything like it before."
You have obviously never been subject to the insincere praise and barely concealed back-stabbing of a local amateur dramatic or operatic group. The comments on the forum are tame in comparison to the envy, vitriol and insincere flattery meeted out at those places.

Clive

Well. With regard to the travelling the country, I was replying to Gadget (which is why I'd quoted him twice), who I know can't. Much as I suspect that he'd like to....

I've been in both local dramatic and operatic groups, as well as having done a stint in the chorus of the Welsh National Opera. I've seen the overpraising done there too. Which has also helped lead people into believing their own hype! But it's still not as prevalent as it appears in the dance world. Maybe I was just lucky with the groups I was in....

CJ
7th-March-2005, 03:18 PM
Don't you listen to him, Tramp...

We all think you are great!! :worthy:

Funny, intelligent, GREAT dancer oh, and the way you work a dance floor with that laptop....

Swoon.................

{Hey, this is my 2000th post: i'm allowed to be even more sarcy :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: ,
offensive :na: :na: :na:
and glib :drool: :drool: :drool: than ever! :D }

TheTramp
7th-March-2005, 03:23 PM
Don't you listen to him, Tramp...

We all think you are great!! :worthy:

Funny, intelligent, GREAT dancer oh, and the way you work a dance floor with that laptop....

Swoon.................

{Hey, this is my 2000th post: i'm allowed to be even more sarcy, offensive and glib than ever! :D }
I believe that you forgot several drooling smileys CJ. And a few of the 'not worthy' ones too....

Please don't make the same mistake again!

Gadget
7th-March-2005, 04:10 PM
Hmmm. Lots of hobbies and interests I've had give me just as much damn FUN as dancing. Whether they be as part of a team, as in a small group, or even on my own - for example, reading a great book, or a great gym workout :what:.
Fun?... entertainment perhaps. A pleasurable way to pass the time & interact with people who enjoy the same thing. The prime difference is that connection and moment shared between two people - the closest thing to it is a combat sport where you are face to face with an oponent. That's fun, but in an adrenalised, agressive and reactionary kind of way. Dancing is more a slow release of adrenalin.


And there are plenty of people who would find far more fun in other activites than dancing, without needing to pander as much to the 'lovey effect'. I've never really come across anything like it before. True. It's not for everyone - some people enjoy jumping off of bridges with an elastic band tied to an ankle; others like sitting in the cold and wet, watching a little flurecent float bob in a river. But I can't understand these people. I can understand/relate to people who enjoy dancing.

Perhaps it's more to do with MJ being such a bell-curve for number of people and ability?: Tonnes of beginners, lots of intermediates, few advanced and a handfull of 'dance gurus'. Every lower level of the pramid looks up and goes "ooooh". Since you have a larger number of people going "ooooh", more of them will be inclined to add an "aaah". (1% of people going "cool" from 100 people is only 1. 1% of people saying "cool" from 10,000 is 100. 100 people have a big voice when enthusiastic.)


Perhaps if you were able to travel the country, and attend the events, and meet the people concerned over a period of time (rather than just seeing the posts and results on the forum), you would have more understanding of what I mean.
{Clive; this was directed at me; Tramp knows me, so knows the words are accurate. The "able" bit is the killer.}
I do agree that there is a fair bit of 'lovieness' in here - personally I would have thought that some people were a bit long in the tooth in the MJ world to still be acting like school kids with a crush. I would rather they say why someone is :drool: or what they do to make them :drool: worthy so that some of us may attempt emulate it.


Incidentally, I have to say, my original post was more about the response that such praise generates in people, rather than about the simple fact of dishing it out.
hmmm... I suppose, someone saying "thanks, you're a great dancer" as a departing comment could ilicit a number of responses (from "dance gurus" in particular) that would make them appear arrogant or haughty.

TheTramp
7th-March-2005, 04:25 PM
Fun?... entertainment perhaps. A pleasurable way to pass the time & interact with people who enjoy the same thing. The prime difference is that connection and moment shared between two people - the closest thing to it is a combat sport where you are face to face with an oponent. That's fun, but in an adrenalised, agressive and reactionary kind of way. Dancing is more a slow release of adrenalin.
No. Fun. I have FUN when I'm playing all kinds of sports, or engaging in a host of other activies. I don't understand how you can presume to tell me what reaction I'm having when I'm doing something I enjoy, that isn't dancing.

You can, of course, experience it in your own way. Which might be entertainment for you, rather than fun. But that's your opinion. Which, of course, you are completely entitled to. Rather in the same way as I can be having FUN when I do something other than dancing that I enjoy.


Perhaps it's more to do with MJ being such a bell-curve for number of people and ability?: Tonnes of beginners, lots of intermediates, few advanced and a handfull of 'dance gurus'. Every lower level of the pramid looks up and goes "ooooh". Since you have a larger number of people going "ooooh", more of them will be inclined to add an "aaah". (1% of people going "cool" from 100 people is only 1. 1% of people saying "cool" from 10,000 is 100. 100 people have a big voice when enthusiastic.)
I don't see in what way MJ differs from any other activity that people undertake. Tell me an activity that doesn't have many beginners starting out, more intermediates who've been undertaking that activity for a while, and are getting better at it. And then the handful of people who are experts at it. I can't think of anything that doesn't meet this specification....

Anyhow. All of this is taking us further away from the topic of Confidence, Humility (and Arrogance).

Gadget
7th-March-2005, 04:55 PM
No. Fun. I have FUN when I'm playing all kinds of sports, or engaging in a host of other activies. I don't understand how you can presume to tell me what reaction I'm having when I'm doing something I enjoy, that isn't dancing.
perhaps it's my definition of "Fun"... actually, it's probably more the fact that one word discribes multiple options under it: trying to compare and quantify these against each other is pointless, fruitless and I couldn't care less.

I was not trying to dictate what you should and should not find fun - The point I think I was trying to make (asside from the fact that dancing is fun) is that you can't really compare dancing to any other hobby, therefore the level of enjoyment to other hobbys can't really compare.

Clive Long
7th-March-2005, 05:40 PM
Perhaps if you were able to travel the country, and attend the events, and meet the people concerned over a period of time (rather than just seeing the posts and results on the forum), you would have more understanding of what I mean.



{Clive; this was directed at me; Tramp knows me, so knows the words are accurate. The "able" bit is the killer.}


:blush: :blush: :blush: :blush: :blush: :blush:

I didn't pick up on that - and misread the intention in the post - reading it as "if you weren't so parochial, and you were as widely travelled ..."

I am a fool but a repentent one.

Three pints of 80 shilling for the men in skirts landlord.

Graham
9th-March-2005, 01:10 PM
That's strange and interesting because I feel the total oposite. The biggest difference to me and that's the confident dancer will 'include' me in their dance, whereas the arrogant dancer will show me how they can dance, often at the detriment of my enjoyment. :sad:

The confident dancer won't mind lowering their standards to meet that of their partner, they don't feel the constant need to prove themselves and do complicated flashy moves to make themselves look good, they don't see a problem with going back to basics, they also have the confidence to laugh off mistakes. :nice:
This was exactly my reaction, and is the reason I haven't voted in the poll. I know you were talking as a follower, but even as a leader, I would rather dance with someone who is nervous than someone who is arrogant, although my preference would be someone who is self-confident without being arrogant.

Bill
11th-March-2005, 05:49 PM
That's strange and interesting because I feel the total oposite. The biggest difference to me and that's the confident dancer will 'include' me in their dance, whereas the arrogant dancer will show me how they can dance, often at the detriment of my enjoyment. :sad:

The confident dancer won't mind lowering their standards to meet that of their partner, they don't feel the constant need to prove themselves and do complicated flashy moves to make themselves look good, they don't see a problem with going back to basics, they also have the confidence to laugh off mistakes. :nice:


Agree totally Lori. And it's not just the experienced dancer who does this but relatively new dancers who want to demonstrate their prowess with even absolute beginners. Despite what women say to them i.e. basic moves done well is better than complicated moves all the time they will insist on dancing for themselves rather than with their partner.

As for applause, praise or even adulation - it can obviously lead to arrogance if the dancer / couple begin to believe the press and the hype but I think the better the dancer the more realistic appreciation they have of their 'ability' and certainly have no need to tell anyone how good they are ( dancers who do this are generally IMHO not that good). I've seen dancers getting applause from a group of beginners for doing a few 'big' moves but obviously to them they look really polished and technical.

Zebra Woman
11th-March-2005, 06:21 PM
That's strange and interesting because I feel the total oposite. The biggest difference to me and that's the confident dancer will 'include' me in their dance, whereas the arrogant dancer will show me how they can dance, often at the detriment of my enjoyment. :sad:

The confident dancer won't mind lowering their standards to meet that of their partner, they don't feel the constant need to prove themselves and do complicated flashy moves to make themselves look good, they don't see a problem with going back to basics, they also have the confidence to laugh off mistakes. :nice:

I agree with Lory totally (as ever). I would just add that the feeling of dancing with a confident dancer is like being on their team, co-operative and positive (especially if a move didn't pan out in the expected way). :innocent:

Whereas the same dance with an arrogant dancer would feel competitive and there could even be a look of blame if something went wrong. :angry:

I find salsa shines really bring this difference out. Wonderful though they are to watch, I find them quite stressful. Even after 5 years of salsa I was never good at them.

A confident dancer would do a short simple one and encourage me to have a go or let me not go for it . Obviously he would ramp it up if I showed a big interest. .......which I wouldn't

An arrogant dancer would really go off on one (preferably in front of a large audience) and then he would stop with a 'Well what's your anwer to that then?' look. :really:

MartinHarper
11th-March-2005, 08:21 PM
Despite what women say to them i.e. basic moves done well is better than complicated moves

While that's what folks on this forum say, I don't find the same attitude in the wider MJ world.


An arrogant dancer would really go off on one (preferably in front of a large audience) and then he would stop with a 'Well what's your anwer to that then?' look. :really:

I guess I'd assume that the guy wasn't very good at the "match your partner" and "guess what your partner wants" elements of partner dance, rather then necessarilly being arrogant.

But then, as a lead it's different. Follows can't realistically do solo shines for much longer than I let them. The answer to any such look would be a first move.

ChrisA
13th-March-2005, 03:44 PM
Despite what women say to them i.e. basic moves done well is better than complicated moves all the time



While that's what folks on this forum say, I don't find the same attitude in the wider MJ world.

Care to elaborate on this?

I'd be interested in any evidence you think you have that women prefer complicated moves all the time (led badly, out of time, which is the actual opinion often expressed here on the forum), than basic ones, danced well.

I'd also be interested in how you define your experience of 'the wider MJ world', and its validity.

cheeks
13th-March-2005, 03:52 PM
I have haven't voted in the poll as I feel peoples perception of confident/ arrogant etc will vary widely.

I dance with many a confident dancer( not necessary an experienced dancer) and do not feel they are necessary including me! as from the off set the dance is a 50-50 partnership that is enjoyable for both.
Whether or not moves are more basic beginner moves or the more complicated doesn't make me think my partner is arrogant or not does not enter into it.
The confident dancers I have danced with in my experience will dance with the enjoyment of that track and lead me into moves, Yes sometimes I may not follow as am not familiar with or experienced enough but will learn from this or on the other side if a lesser lead has been given and I have been unable to follow, we both learn but at the same time enjoy.

I can be confident dancing with my partner as I do not feel like we are performing to the crowd or worried about others opinions or judgement.

When I began dancing I was more nervous and I guess did not have confidence but this was down to My perception of feeling intimidated watching others dance so well( and I still have my moments like everyone when I feel i am dancing as well).This very quickly disappeared as I began to learn more moves and danced with many different dancers and yes some who I had heard people gossip about saying how great they were and they knew it- Me being a very stubborn person also open minded felt well I cant judge as I have never danced with them so yes went out my way to ask them to dance.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I did not find these dancers arrogant and found that I had so much Fun dancing.

THAT MAYBE WE SHOULD NOT BE JUDGING OTHERS AS CONFIDENT ARROGANT OR CATEGORISING OR GENERALISING BECAUSE ALL WE WILL FIND IS THAT WE ADD TO GOSSIP GOOD OR BAD.


:flower:

I guess I just love to dance!

Katie
13th-March-2005, 05:14 PM
I'd be interested in any evidence you think you have that women prefer complicated moves all the time (led badly, out of time, which is the actual opinion often expressed here on the forum), than basic ones, danced well.


I know of a few women who prefer doing lots of complicated moves (namely drops) as opposed to basic ones. One I know, in particular, even asks if the guy would do something interesting... :really:

Admittedly, when I first started, it was the complicated moves that attracted me... but when I discovered a couple of years later I could be musical (with all sorts of moves), this was far more rewarding.... :grin:

Kate

El Salsero Gringo
13th-March-2005, 05:24 PM
I know of a few women who prefer doing lots of complicated moves (namely drops) as opposed to basic ones. One I know, in particular, even asks if the guy would do something interesting... :really:
If what she then got was a lot of badly-done complicated moves and dangerous drops - and they could be pretty bad - do you think, hypothetically speaking, she would prefer to go back to the well-done simple moves?

drathzel
13th-March-2005, 05:37 PM
One I know, in particular, even asks if the guy would do something interesting... :really:



mmmm, sounds good! :rofl:

I agree with you though that basic moves lead well can let you enjoy the dance and put your own mark on the dance! :clap:

Katie
13th-March-2005, 05:37 PM
If what she then got was a lot of badly-done complicated moves and dangerous drops - and they could be pretty bad - do you think, hypothetically speaking, she would prefer to go back to the well-done simple moves?

This lady in particular, I would say no. She loves risque type moves. Some ladies are not lucky enough to have discovered that simple basic moves can be done well. If, week in, week out, you dance with the same 'yankers' then you don't know any better.

I can remember dancing with a couple of teachers a few years ago who were yankers and I thought that that was normal. It was a bit disorientating at first when I ventured into the wider world of MJ to find, that some leads were light. Now, when I dance with a yanker, I'll give subtle hints that it hurts!!

Kate

ChrisA
13th-March-2005, 06:42 PM
Just for the record, in case it's not obvious, there's nothing wrong with a spectrum of complexity during a dance, with some complicated stuff in there too... providing that the complicated stuff is led well, and in particular, painlessly.

Pretzels and backhanders (to give just two examples of moves I've seen executed particularly graunchingly by clueless blokes that think they're doing well), can be led, strangely enough, without dislocation.

:flower:

David Bailey
13th-March-2005, 09:20 PM
I think it's down to the way most guys learn - the first couple of years, we're frantically writing down all the moves in great detail, we think we have to do all of them in a single song, so we're doing lots of complex and unrelated moves.

Then it gradually dawns on us that we should do the moves we like / can do well, then even more gradually (as we are guys, after all :) ) it may dawn on us that we should dance with the lady and do the moves she likes and can do well. Possibly we also alter moves to match the music, but I wouldn't count on it, see "guys" comment.

So eventually you get to the stage where you know lots of moves, but only use a small subset - but they're done well.

At some point, I may get to that stage...!

Minnie M
13th-March-2005, 09:54 PM
.......So eventually you get to the stage......../snip/......At some point, I may get to that stage...!
ahaaaa.......the stage :rolleyes: where the hotshots hang out :whistle: seen them at Hipsters and previously at the Casbah:waycool: :D

MartinHarper
14th-March-2005, 12:14 AM
Care to elaborate on this?

Bill commented that guys lead complex moves, despite women telling them that they prefer simple moves done well. He concluded that they were arrogant and ignoring what women say, instead choosing flashy moves that make them look good.

In my experience, off the forum, women rarely express a preference for simple moves done well over complex moves done adequately, and sometimes express the opposite preference. I suspect that the reason some men do complex moves is that they believe that their partners want complex moves. In a way, they are trying too hard to please their partner, and suffering from an excess of humility.

No evidence, no proof. Just my experience.

TheTramp
14th-March-2005, 07:44 AM
And what about flashy moves done well?? :whistle:

drathzel
14th-March-2005, 09:43 AM
And what about flashy moves done well?? :whistle:

Now what would they feel like? :whistle: :grin:

David Bailey
15th-March-2005, 10:16 PM
ahaaaa.......the stage :rolleyes: where the hotshots hang out :whistle: seen them at Hipsters and previously at the Casbah:waycool: :D

Isn't it weird the way the ability levels change in some (most?) venues, the closer you get to the stage (and/or the further away from the bar)? Same at Ashtons and Hammersmith. Hmmm, actually I rarely go near the stage at Ashtons, maybe I'm a beginner. Having said that, I also think snob-levels skyrocket closer to the stage. So I'm clearly a nice beginner. :grin:

David, demonstrating his unerring grasp of statistics and logic....

Purple Sparkler
23rd-May-2005, 10:47 AM
I'd rather have simple moves well lead any day. And in the words of Elsa Schneider in 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade', "I hate arrogant men".
The bain of my dancing existence are men who try complicated moves that it's obvious they aren't ready for. I'd rather have a well lead first move than a continuous pretzel that yanks my arms out of their sockets.

There's one guy at one of my regular nights who is just like that, and keeps grinning at me as if to say "I'm the best dancer here, you should be grateful" when all I'm thinking is "you don't know what you're doing- NO I'm not going into a drop, you'll drop me..." It's mean, but I can't help it.

There's also the problem of arrogant guys who do lots of moves designed to show themselves off but give you very little to do as their partner.

I like confidence, believe me. Dancing with a guy who really knows his stuff is always good. But confidence becomes arrogance if it exceeds actual abilities, I think. And sadly, occasionally it does.

Bill
23rd-May-2005, 11:53 AM
I'd rather have simple moves well lead any day.

There's also the problem of arrogant guys who do lots of moves designed to show themselves off but give you very little to do as their partner.




This has been covered a number of times over the last few years but still some men don't seem to get the point ! :sad: Every club has some men who still believe that trying every move they've learned with every partner is the best thing to do.

I watched a fairly experienced man pull a couple of new women all over the place last week clealry believing they would enjoy so many complicated moves. He had absolutely no regard for their well being or their safety and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't come back.

However, some women do appearto enjoy the 'thrill' of being thrown about for 3 mins! I've found that the longer I've danced the fewer 'complicated' moves and drops I do. When I get to the stage when I can do a first moves as smoothly and as elegantly as Viktor then I might decide to retire :rolleyes: :nice:

MartinHarper
23rd-May-2005, 12:32 PM
There's also the problem of arrogant guys who do lots of moves designed to show themselves off but give you very little to do as their partner.

Example?
(of the moves, not the guys...)
Wondering how much it's moves, and how much it's the way moves are done.
(it ain't what you do...)

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-May-2005, 01:02 PM
There's also the problem of arrogant guys who do lots of moves designed to show themselves off but give you very little to do as their partner.There are other ways to interpret this: it might be that he's waiting for you to show off too, by putting more style (hips, body movement, whatever) into your moves. Or it could be that he's fed up with his own lack of skill at not being able to lead you to the standard he wants, and he's just given up on your (joint) failure to connect. Either way you may not be justified in putting all down to his arrogance. He probably doesn't think he's as brilliant as you imagine he does.

I'll second Martin's question: which moves are designed to show off the guy and give the girl little to do? I can't think of any offhand either!

Gadget
23rd-May-2005, 01:21 PM
But confidence becomes arrogance if it exceeds actual abilities, I think. And sadly, occasionally it does.So an "arrogant" lead can move you into the move, through the move and out the other side. They have just led the move. You have just followed it. They know they can now lead that move and have confidence to do it. How does a lead know that they can't do the move if they can lead it and you can follow it? :confused:

Purple Sparkler
23rd-May-2005, 02:04 PM
Examples are difficult to write down as I only have one teacher who actually tells us what moves are called, but I would say any man moves (man guitar, high-tail-low-tail, manspin) that is not then followed by the female equivalent, and is done to excess. It would be much easier to show you if we were all at a Ceroc night and I could point out the kinds of moves I'm thinking of.

And just because I can follow a move, doesn't mean the guy can lead it. It can happen that I know what he's trying to do, and follow AS IF I was being led. There is also a difference between leading (knowing the lefts and rights, backs and forths, ins and outs of a move) and leading it well (knowing the former, but also knowing how to give a strong direction/signal without yanking you around the dancefloor, because they are not just thinking 'this is how the move should work' but are also considering their partner as part of the equation).

I take ESG's point that sometimes people just don't connect when dancing. And I agree, it's not always arrogance. But it is, sometimes.

As for the thrill of being 'thrown around' (dipped, thrown into advanced moves etc), as I've said elsewhere, I can only enjoy it when I trust my partner, and if I'm being yanked around, and am conscious that he's trying to run before he can walk, then that doesn't help me trust him any.

Though practicing moves is the only way that you can improve- and some of the best dance partners I've had have, when they realise I haven't quite got the hang of what they're trying to do, do it again until I get it.

Is this making any sense?

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-May-2005, 02:56 PM
Examples are difficult to write down as I only have one teacher who actually tells us what moves are called, but I would say any man moves (man guitar, high-tail-low-tail, manspin) that is not then followed by the female equivalent, and is done to excess. It would be much easier to show you if we were all at a Ceroc night and I could point out the kinds of moves I'm thinking of. Point taken. But do remember, that even on a sequence of man-spins, you've got beats and beats and beats to do footwork shines and other stuff that makes you look groovy and sexy. Whereas all the man gets to do is spin backwards and forwards (yawn...)

Divissima
23rd-May-2005, 03:33 PM
But do remember, that even on a sequence of man-spins, you've got beats and beats and beats to do footwork shines and other stuff that makes you look groovy and sexy. Whereas all the man gets to do is spin backwards and forwards (yawn...)I rather like the idea of introducing shines into MJ - I'm sure some people already do them, and other do them without knowing what they are, but I had never done one (didn't even know what one was) until Saturday...:blush: Not having done salsa for years, I was taught a shine earlier in the day, then at Greenwich ended up dancing salsa to a great track (although didn't have the guts to try my new shine - maybe next time).

David Bailey
23rd-May-2005, 03:51 PM
I rather like the idea of introducing shines into MJ
Shines are, by definition, difficult to lead - you both have to know them, all these Suzy Q's, bow ties, that sort of stuff...

So unless they're introduced as a standard, and promoted strongly, you're going to find problems with people who know shines, trying to lead into a shine move, compared to people who don't know them, looking at you in a funny way. Hell, you still get that problem in salsa, and shines have been common in salsa for, I dunno, maybe 5 years or more.

Having said that, if they're done well they're stylish as hell.

Oh, and this year's award for sentence construction goes to.... :

He probably doesn't think he's as brilliant as you imagine he does.
:clap: :clap: :whistle:

Bill
23rd-May-2005, 04:34 PM
Though practicing moves is the only way that you can improve- and some of the best dance partners I've had have, when they realise I haven't quite got the hang of what they're trying to do, do it again until I get it.

Is this making any sense?


perfectly ....and I recognise the 'grin' or possibly glint in a man's eye as he prepares to 'lead' the woman. Surely it's down to awareness of you partner's ability/experience/comptence and dancing with her rather than more or less pulling and throwing her into moves?? And perhaps because they stand out more some of these men seem desperate to do the moves regardless of the beat so going hell for leather when there's a bluesy track playing :sick: :angry:

She might follow but it's probably because she has no choice and is clinging on for dear life! Complex moves and dancing at speed are great ( so I'm told !!) if you know your partner well and the moves fit the track but how many brusied and battered women do there have to be before some men are told to calm down !??? :what:

JoC
23rd-May-2005, 05:47 PM
I rather like the idea of introducing shines into MJ - I'm sure some people already do them, and other do them without knowing what they are, but I had never done one (didn't even know what one was) until Saturday...:blush:

So wot is one of them then...? Am I going to blush too for asking!?

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-May-2005, 06:04 PM
So wot is one of them then...? Am I going to blush too for asking!?A shine is (I think this about right) is when you release your partner from a lead and both do a bit of fancy footwork of your own choosing. It sort-of happens in Ceroc when the follower does her own thing - aka hijacking - although there's less emphasis on the footwork patterns and more on body movement much as in the rest of MJ.

JoC
23rd-May-2005, 06:24 PM
Are we talking mirroring here or is each partner doing something different?

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-May-2005, 06:41 PM
Are we talking mirroring here or is each partner doing something different?Could be the same, if you're fast enough to recognise what your partner's doing, but more likely to be different. I think it's often a case of watching the other person "strut their stuff" while you do some basic footwork, then when they're done they watch you have a go, then you pick up the lead between you and dance together again.

Although having said that, the last time I danced salsa with a particular Instructor she managed to do complicated shines while we were still hand-to-hand and I was just leading basic steps, so she was obviously good enough to fit them in wherever and whenever.

David Bailey
23rd-May-2005, 07:41 PM
Could be the same, if you're fast enough to recognise what your partner's doing, but more likely to be different. I think it's often a case of watching the other person "strut their stuff" while you do some basic footwork, then when they're done they watch you have a go, then you pick up the lead between you and dance together again.
Sounds about right to me.

Salsa shines are I believe (I'm no expert) easier when both partners are separated, simply because you've got more room to do your thing, and in theory you can then come back together at a certain point, mainly when the leader gets bored I think. Although the number of times I've had to just guess where to "pick up".... :blush:

But in MJ, there's not so much a tradition of separate dancing. But you could argue that a standard openhand hold provides shine opportunities, as do many other moves.

Gadget
23rd-May-2005, 08:49 PM
And just because I can follow a move, doesn't mean the guy can lead it. It can happen that I know what he's trying to do, and follow AS IF I was being led.
So the way a lead knows he is a poor lead is that the lady anticipates and back-leads moves. It's not a fault in the lady's following: it's indicative of a fault in the man's leading. :what: I never realised I was such a poor lead :tears: {sob, sob, mellodrama, swoon.}

There is also a difference between leading and leading it well. There is. And how does a lead know the difference? A follower can feel the difference because she is reacting to the lead. A lead is acting rather than reacting - so has to take his cues from the reaction of the followers. Then has to actually try to understand what the reactions mean. Doubly hard to do when the follower ignores the lead and just does what they think the lead wants them to. How is the lead going to improve or find outwhat/where to get better when the followers cover up for him?


Though practicing moves is the only way that you can improve- and some of the best dance partners I've had have, when they realise I haven't quite got the hang of what they're trying to do, do it again until I get it. No: practice with the one partner only familurises you with the move as the lead leads it and how to react to that move. For the lead to get better at leading the move, he needs a few things:
- The follower to follow what was led, no matter how badly or 'incorrect' it feels (avoiding injury of course)
- If it was really bad, then the follower has to physically show the lead where she should be
- The lead has to know where they want the lady to be and where they should be; facing and body position

With all the above, the lead should be able to work out where/how to move the hands and position the lady & where/how to move the feet to position himself.

Unfortunatly, if the follower follows all the errors and 'mistakes' the lead does, then they are (seldom) actually dancing to the music or having fun. And that's the whole point of dancing :tears:

What normally happens is that the lead picks up on some things during normal dancing that the lady does (that he didn't expect or lead). Then he knows that something is wrong.
Practicing leading a move again and again in the same way will only condition the ladys to react in the desired way - not leading or following, but choriography. Practicing leading again and again while making subtle changes, then seeing what flows better/worse is how you improve... As long as the follower reacts to these changes and dosn't just slip into "automatic" to go through the movements.

Purple Sparkler
24th-May-2005, 10:18 AM
*addresses seething mass of earthworms*

HEY! Get back in the can! Oh, for heaven's sake...
:sick:

Divissima
24th-May-2005, 10:45 AM
Sounds about right to me.

Salsa shines are I believe (I'm no expert) easier when both partners are separated, simply because you've got more room to do your thing, and in theory you can then come back together at a certain point, mainly when the leader gets bored I think. Although the number of times I've had to just guess where to "pick up".... :blush: The way my ballroom teacher explained the concept of a shine was that it should fit within the basic footwork pattern of salsa so that when you finish it, you are immediately back into the normal footwork - this makes it easier to return to the hold and lead and follow.

I can see this could be a problem with MJ because the footwork doesn't really follow a set pattern - the shine could go on and on without either partner knowing when the other one has finished. Salseros, is this right?

David Bailey
24th-May-2005, 11:39 AM
The way my ballroom teacher explained the concept of a shine was that it should fit within the basic footwork pattern of salsa so that when you finish it, you are immediately back into the normal footwork - this makes it easier to return to the hold and lead and follow.
Yes, I've heard that one too... :D

Trouble is, some shines seem to be 1.5 beats rather than 1 or 2, which just throws me - I then tend to go "back-to-basic" and hope that at some point the shining will stop... Or, could be that I'm just cr*p at this timing lark.


I can see this could be a problem with MJ because the footwork doesn't really follow a set pattern - the shine could go on and on without either partner knowing when the other one has finished.
Ooohhh yes. Happens (to me) in salsa as well.

So in MJ, hmmm, let's just say it's a challenge. But, no pain no gain, right?


Salseros, is this right?Don't ask me, I just make it up as I go along. Which is probably a good T-shirt motto for me...

Simon r
24th-May-2005, 11:44 AM
The way my ballroom teacher explained the concept of a shine was that it should fit within the basic footwork pattern of salsa so that when you finish it, you are immediately back into the normal footwork - this makes it easier to return to the hold and lead and follow.

I can see this could be a problem with MJ because the footwork doesn't really follow a set pattern - the shine could go on and on without either partner knowing when the other one has finished. Salseros, is this right?
:yeah:

A salsa shine can be any multiple from a 8 beat count 8 , 24 ,32 and so on.
most are partner shines such as suzy que on a 8 beat up to the longest i know which is a full flair which lasts for a 64 beat count ...
I used to teach shines on a seperate night from salsa and spend an entire lesson teaching three or four shines ....
Most have a verbal signal to insure you both start the shine together but all are leadable but then require the follower to interpret the move quickly enough before it is over...
Shines can also be danced as a group with a caller abit like line dancing... not my cup of tea...
shines mainly come from cuban salsa so as divi said fit straight back into the footwork pattern and tend not to work so well with new york style but i have seen some put shines here as well..
Best place to see the pros check out the two venues at leicester square on a saturday night .... best teacher a guy called Romario owns most of the london venues and really nice bloke....
Si

Divissima
24th-May-2005, 11:50 AM
Best place to see the pros check out the two venues at leicester square on a saturday night .... best teacher a guy called Romario owns most of the london venues and really nice bloke....
SiI feel a salsa night out coming on.... :waycool: Anyone else interested? As a general disclaimer, my salsa is absolutely terrible, but I'm guessing there would be enough great stuff to watch to make it a good night out (club salsa music notwithstanding).

Rhythm King
24th-May-2005, 12:05 PM
I feel a salsa night out coming on.... :waycool: Anyone else interested? As a general disclaimer, my salsa is absolutely terrible, but I'm guessing there would be enough great stuff to watch to make it a good night out (club salsa music notwithstanding).

What a fab idea! :clap: I did some salsa years ago, in Cambridge, where Nelson Batista taught. I've also done a couple of taster classes in Spain and elsewhere on weekenders/holidays. Haven't really done any since and thus fall into the absolutely terrible category too... :blush:

Sounds like another of your amazingly well organised evenings out on the way, Diva :worthy:

R-K :waycool:

David Bailey
24th-May-2005, 12:17 PM
I feel a salsa night out coming on.... :waycool: Anyone else interested? As a general disclaimer, my salsa is absolutely terrible, but I'm guessing there would be enough great stuff to watch to make it a good night out (club salsa music notwithstanding).
Count me in! I know a few places in London, PM me if you want any info.

spindr
24th-May-2005, 12:51 PM
:yeah:

A salsa shine can be any multiple from a 8 beat count 8 , 24 ,32 and so on.
most are partner shines such as suzy que on a 8 beat up to the longest i know which is a full flair which lasts for a 64 beat count ...
[snip]
Best place to see the pros check out the two venues at leicester square on a saturday night .... best teacher a guy called Romario owns most of the london venues and really nice bloke....
Si

:yeah: Hey, nice description!

I think the closest swing dance description is either like "sugar-footing" in Lindy Hop -- hey, there's that Suzi Q again! -- sometimes even like a short excerpt from one of Adam'n'Taz's funzky solo routines.

Only comment I would make is that you don't *have* to mirror -- and in fact I know several teachers who teach different steps for guys and gals *in the same shine routine*. In that case, the lady's styling seems to be a lot more floating / curving and the guy's styling more grounded and staccatto.

SpinDr.