Finding your Feet

[Stuart M]

I've been thinking - no,honestly - and one topic that's not been discussed much is how we move our feet, particularly us guys. One of the good/bad things (bear with me) about Ceroc is that footwork isn't really taught much in the regular classes - I never learned anything really about footwork until I did a style workshop.

I feel that a lot of people's style preference comes from how they prefer to move their feet. I've been fighting my instincts recently - and watched the men's legs when I've sat out dances :really: instead of the fairer sex's :yum: - and a lot of the style seems to be "built up" from how gents move their feet. For example, watching blues style dancers, they tend to "slide" a lot more (e.g. Bill), whilst club stylers bounce around a bit. Those who step in a more precise fashion end up looking more ballroom or salsa, I think (Ian in Glasgow definitely falls into this category).

So, the questions are,

a) How did you "find your feet" when learning?
b) is that lack of footwork coaching a major source of diverse styling in modern jive, or is it a hindrance?
c) How closely do you think footwork and style are related?

Worth discussing? :nice:

[Will]

Stuart,

The foot you step back on is very important. With a few exceptions (i.e. manspin), you should make a habit as a man of stepping back on your left foot. It doesn't matter so much in ceroc, but if you try other dance styles (i.e. Salsa, Tango) you'll find that more often than not they move there left leg first, so it is a good habit to get into.

:wink:

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Will
Stuart,

The foot you step back on is very important. With a few exceptions (i.e. manspin), you should make a habit as a man of stepping back on your left foot. It doesn't matter so much in ceroc, but if you try other dance styles (i.e. Salsa, Tango) you'll find that more often than not they move there left leg first, so it is a good habit to get into.

:wink:
No offence meant, Will - but I do know all this, which is why the thread's not in the Beginners section. By footwork I meant things like cross-stepping, triple stepping, and the like.

[Lou]

Originally posted by Will
The foot you step back on is very important. With a few exceptions (i.e. manspin), you should make a habit as a man of stepping back on your left foot.

Actually - that's really interesting, 'cos in leroc , men are taught to step back on the right foot.... :really:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Will
Stuart,

The foot you step back on is very important. With a few exceptions (i.e. manspin), you should make a habit as a man of stepping back on your left foot.

:wink:
Why?? In the Club Jive style we step back on whatever foot to present the body at the desired angle to your partner ... sometimes you'll want to face, sometimes twist away, other times you'll want your back to her ... so I'm not sure that a prescriptive 'stepback' is usefull.

As for Stuart's comments .... I think for a clubby style there doesn't neccesairly have to be bouncing .... personaly I like the hip-hop version of kick/ball-change and lunging into positions .... how you describe that in precise footwork terms I dunno ... when you see what we do at the weekend maybe you'll be able to tell me:wink:

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Gus
.... I think for a clubby style there doesn't neccesairly have to be bouncing .... personaly I like the hip-hop version of kick/ball-change and lunging into positions .... how you describe that in precise footwork terms I dunno ... when you see what we do at the weekend maybe you'll be able to tell me:wink:
I agree bouncy steps doesn't necessarily equate to a clubby style, it's just a tendency I noted. :nice:

What I'm wondering is whether people found they started developing style as a result of improving their footwork, or - vice versa - did their footwork improve as a result of developing style?
And is the lack of early footwork training related to the wide variety of styling one can achieve?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Stuart M
a) How did you "find your feet" when learning?I had done a little bit of ballroom first. I found it a nice change not to have to worry about it when I was a beginner. Now I wish I could remember my ballroom...

b) is that lack of footwork coaching a major source of diverse styling in modern jive, or is it a hindrance?A bit of both. Having no set footwork should mean that there is a lot of scope for styling. Unfortunately it makes a lot of dancers think they don't have to worry about their feet at all, and they look untidy. Feet are like hands in that you notice them when they do something odd, but they become 'invisible' when you do things right.

c) How closely do you think footwork and style are related?For some styles - very closely. The more you tend to move your feet, the more you need to think about how you do it. Footwork is not just about your feet - it's how you use your legs to move your body. So the footwork for the ladies is more important. Men can get away with hardly moving.


Originally posted by Will/Stuart/Lou/Gus
...Left or right...
I don't know which foot I step on in Jive. I try to move my body, and let my feet move if they need to. But when I have to move my feet, I try to do what I used to be taught.

(All this assumes you are interested enough in how you look to do something about it. If you are just out to have fun, you are probably more interested in how it feels.)

David

[Jayne]

Originally posted by DavidB

So the footwork for the ladies is more important. Men can get away with hardly moving.

David

Sorry David - I disagree. Just because some guys don't move their feet it doesn't mean that it's a good dance style. I'm talking about the small minority of male dancers who think that everything comes from the girl and they literally don't move their feet. REALLY annoys me. (Can you tell??)
:devil: :devil: :devil: :steam coming out ears:

I think that it's great that to start with there's little (no) emphasis on footwork - it means that it's easier to learn and you spend more time looking at your partner. (although having come from a ballroom background I REALLY struggled with this concept to start with - now I struggle to learn moves from the feet in other dance styles... :rolleyes: )

From experience I've found that learning to relax is the most important thing - learn to relax and everything else follows, both in terms of moving your feet and being able to pick up style points. I'm not suggesting that being relaxed is easy - it took me six years of dancing to relax!!! :what:

don't know if this has been any help stuart??

BTW David - if there's *any* chance you could remember any ballroom steps I've *love* to do some again. Lead and I'll follow... catch you saturday??

Jayne
:nice:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Jayne
Just because some guys don't move their feet it doesn't mean that it's a good dance style.I've always preferred the style of swing dancing where the man moves very little, and the lady moves around him (think of a bicycle wheel - the man is the axle, and the lady moves along the spokes.) It suits me because I'm just under 17st, and if I start moving around, I could really do the lady some damage. That doesn't mean I dont use my feet - I just take small steps.
I also think ladies look far better than men when they move, so I emphasise showing her movement, not mine.


BTW David - if there's any chance you could remember any ballroom steps I've love to do some again. Lead and I'll follow... I can just about remember a basic waltz and rumba. If you want to do a foxtrot, I would suggest a pair of steel toe-capped dance shoes...

[Bill]

Originally posted by Stuart M


What I'm wondering is whether people found they started developing style as a result of improving their footwork, or - vice versa - did their footwork improve as a result of developing style?
And is the lack of early footwork training related to the wide variety of styling one can achieve?

Very interesting point Stuart and although there has been some discussion elsewhere about style and how to improve the question of footwork keeps coming up.

Part of me thinks the answer is..I don't know :sad: :rolleyes: Although others say that someone has a 'style' I don;t know if most dancers consciously develop a particular style. I certainly don't know what my style is..I just dance to the music - or try to :) :sick:

The only time I have ever really thought about footwork was by watching Viktor and seeing how even the most basic of moves can be improved by a little footwork - but he didn't make much of it - I just kept watching his feet to see what he was doing. I've commented several times how I think that Viktor and Nigel are - in my opinion - out on their own and what I've learned from Nigel ( but what I can't do to anything like the same standard) is move my feet. Nigel moves just enough at times to place the woman exactly where he wants her and leads superbly.

I also picked up some footwork by watching and listening to Graham & Diane when I attended some of their WCS workshops. I think I did improve as a dancer when I thought more about my own positioning and how to get out of my partner's way and lead her 'properly'.

I'm not as big as Davidb so how you move can depend on your size, shape, ability etc... And if David is who I think he is then he moves very gracefully and with some considerable style ! :waycool:


Sorry this is turning into another rambling response :sorry but I think that footwork follows after a while and it should come naturally rather than thinking where this foot will go. I tried Salsa and only thought of the step pattern rather than the dancing !

It must surely help if a man has tred soem other form of dancing as well - whether ballroom, salsa or whatever. But most ment seem to be dance 'virgins' when they come to Ceroc and so have no experience of footwork so it does take time.

Finally .......... ( sorry !) I think footwork can improve a dancer's style and should almost go unnoticed ... but.... it should be part of how he/she dances or wants to dance and importing someone else's style won't always work.

Well that's me off to bed....probably dream of footwork..:what: :rolleyes:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
It must surely help if a man has tred soem other form of dancing as well - whether ballroom, salsa or whatever. But most ment seem to be dance 'virgins' when they come to Ceroc and so have no experience of footwork so it does take time.
Agree 100% -but it wasn't so much the "footwork" of salsa that made me improve, but the resulting position of my body and how it relates to my partner and the moves:
Ceroc is 80-90% arm movements; dancing from the top, down. Almost all other styles of dance work from the feet, up. (and most comments on what makes good 'style' etc have been on the movement of the feet/body, and not on the actual hand/arm movements that make up the move)

Once you get the timing of other forms of dance and where your body is meant to be, the footwork can be faked quite well :wink::innocent:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gadget
Ceroc is 80-90% arm movements; dancing from the top, down. Almost all other styles of dance work from the feet, up. (and most comments on what makes good 'style' etc have been on the movement of the feet/body, and not on the actual hand/arm movements that make up the move)

Once you get the timing of other forms of dance and where your body is meant to be, the footwork can be faked quite well :wink::innocent: I disagree here. Ceroc is not 80/90% arm movements.
While we don't actively teach footwork, because we find that with Beginners it gives them a stilted style and removes the main enjoyment aspects of dancing with a partner, we do not teach arm movements!
The focus is on learning the moves / patterns, and so we move the whole body, we find that if you want someone to move their body, it is enough to tell them so, rather than asking them to pick up their right foot, move it forward, put it down, transfer weight, pick up left foot, move it forward, etc... Most people are quite able to 'walk' through most moves.
This approach is great for giving Beginners enthusiasm for dancing, as it removes one of the main barriers to entry, but as been mentioned before, it can eventually limit progress and style for a minority of dancers who, having discovered the joys of partner dancing, want to take it further. Learning footwork then becomes very important, as it allows you to bring variety in your dancing.

However, your assertion that you can 'fake' footwork if you can move your body correctly, is flawed. Footwork is what will make your body move in a Stylish way!
A good example of that is the hip swaying in Salsa (and most latin dances), a lot of dancers try to add the hip movement, and usually look like caricatures. The subtle hip movement, comes from the footwork, ie transferring weight from the toes to the heel, as if burying your heel into the ground, will make your hips move in a much more natural way...

It is probably more the case that if you learn the footwork properly, you are then able to make it so subtle, that you can have the effects of the footwork on your body movements while appearing not to be moving your feet that much! :nice:

Franck.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gadget
Once you get the timing of other forms of dance and where your body is meant to be, the footwork can be faked quite well :wink::innocent: I think Franck was right but it just means that Gadget has a low opinion of his own abilities - he thinks hes 'faking' footwork when in actual fact hes quite good at it. After all if it looks the same - how is it fake ?

[Lou]

My very simple viewpoint...

I simply think that the one key thing for Men's footwork isn't how they move, or which foot they move, it's the fact that their body weight gets transfered, so that the balance is maintained between partners. Everything else is a bonus, that adds ease & style to moves. :what: :wink:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck
I disagree here. Ceroc is not 80/90% arm movements.
Ceroc has more arm movements than other forms of dance. Just walk into a room full of Cerocers and one of the first things you notice is the arms. Most Cerocers make big movements with the arms when they lead (most teachers do as well.) A lot of Cerocers make big movements with the arms when they are not leading. Ceroc tends to be led with the arms, as opposed to the body. There are lots of double handed moves, which makes the arm movement more noticable. There are lots of signals with the arms.

It might not be 80/90%, but it is a significant, and highly visible, part of the dance.

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
It might not be 80/90%, but it is a significant, and highly visible, part of the dance. Oh, I agree, we use both arms a lot :nice:
I was disagreeing with the top down point. When teaching, we focus on the whole body pretty much equally.
ie:
- Step back, step in (the main difference is we don't care what foot is used), taking your left hand to left shoulder
- Push left hand towards lady's far hip, ladies Twist out, right foot behind left etc...
- Raise the hand ladies turn clockwise
- and so forth...

I agree that the end result might appear like a lot of arms, and indeed there are loads of double handed moves, or windmill / catapult moves in Ceroc / Modern jive.
The same comment could be made about most dances though, walk into a Lindy class, and all you can see is feet kicking around and bums sticking out :wink:
If you go to a salsa class, all you would notice is hips gyrating and sweaty bodies etc...
If you go to a Blues night, all you would notice is Bill and Fran glued to each other... :na:
If you go to a Ballroom class, all you notice is very upright / stiff bodies and arms, with people looking down at their feet a lot...

No offence meant by the above comments by they way, all meant in good humour :nice:

Franck.

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
If you go to a salsa class, all you would notice is hips gyrating and sweaty bodies etc...Franck.

And the problem with this???? Sounds damn good to me ... can you recommend any clubs:yum: :yum: :yum:

Only kidding Franck ... honest:wink:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
And the problem with this???? Sounds damn good to me ... can you recommend any clubs:yum: :yum: :yum:

Only kidding Franck ... honest:wink: No problem at all indeed, it's par for the course, every dance has its own identity / signature, which should make it readily identifiable... :nice:
I have to say that the first thing I notice when I enter any Ceroc club, is not the arms, but the big smiles on eveyone's face :D :D

As for good Salsa clubs, there are a few in Glasgow that I used to go to (a long time ago), and there is Hoagies in Aberdeen, where FC did her (now infamous) limbo dance :D :yum: Salsa had never been so hot :na:

Franck.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I think Franck was right but it just means that Gadget has a low opinion of his own abilities - he thinks hes 'faking' footwork when in actual fact hes quite good at it. After all if it looks the same - how is it fake ?
There's a whole lot of difference {in Salsa anyway} - certain moves need to be led from a particular footing so that the turn goes the correct way, the lady's footwork in some moves should gel/mirror with yours... Faking for me is being able to take the same beat on the same foot twice, getting me in the correct 'starting point' for a move. :rolleyes:

There is strict footwork involved in Fencing (the only other physical thing I can identify with) - each nuance in placement and position affects the way that everything else works; a foot pointing slightly to one side will make the point of the weapon veer the opposite way or the rest of the body twist to compensate.
My point was that in Dancing Ceroc, the feet are primarily there to make sure that you don't fall over; it doesnÕt actually matter where your feet are, how they got there or where they are pointing. As long as you can keep balance and lead the moves properly you will do OK. Actual 'footwork' improves balance, posture, style, positioning and makes the leading/following of moves easier.


Franck said...
I was disagreeing with the top down point. When teaching, we focus on the whole body pretty much equally
When I said a high percentage of the move were in the upper body, I meant that the concentration/focus of the dancers (teachers) is here. You are relying on the dancer's own sense of balance and movement to 'walk through' moves rather than actually concentrating on "place foot here, bend knee, tap, ..."
It is the footwork that leads to a particular style of dancer and why Ceroc can be done to any music and emulate any style - just change the footwork and the rest of the body will follow.


I have to say that the first thing I notice when I enter any Ceroc club, is not the arms, but the big smiles on eveyone's face :D:D
I think that the reason for the big smiles is that no-one is looking at there feet when dancing :wink::D

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
As for good Salsa clubs, there are a few in Glasgow that I used to go to (a long time ago), and there is Hoagies in Aberdeen, where FC did her (now infamous) limbo dance :D :yum: Salsa had never been so hot :na:

Franck.

come to think of it.....isn't high time we went salsaing again?? it's been a while now :wink:

filthycute x x

[Tiggerbabe]

posted by Gadget

there



:reallymad HEATHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Heather]

:D :D It looks like I'm going to have to teach you grammar now, as well as spelling!!!
No wonder people complain about the appalling standard of literacy in this country!!!!!!!!!
Don't worry, help is at hand, I'll bring you a few 'there and their ' worksheets on Saturday. If all else fails, Sheena and I will just roll them up and smack you with them.:wink: :wink: (Lucky you!!!!:wink: :wink: )
:cheers:
Heather
:kiss:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Heather
~snip~I'll bring you a few 'there and their ' worksheets on Saturday.
Won't help - I always get their and there mixed up; have done since someone told me there was more than one way to spell their "there"'s. :sick:
Just imagine it's correct.;)

[Emma]

Originally posted by Heather
I'll bring you a few 'there and their ' worksheets on Saturday.

You could have a forum corner, and a spelling and grammar corner. :waycool:

[Dreadful Scathe]

gadget: just type what you want to post into the box at http://babelfish.av.com , translate it into french and then post - you can blame the translater then - as non french speakers will have to visit the same site to decipher it :)

[Graham]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
gadget: just type what you want to post into the box at http://babelfish.av.com , translate it into french and then post - you can blame the translater then - as non french speakers will have to visit the same site to decipher it :) TRANSLATOR!
Wouldn't do him much good - enough people on the forum who could spot his mistakes in French as well. Especially since his spelling would probably confuse babelfish! :wink:

[TheTramp]

Getting this thread (finding your feet) back on track....

They're at the bottom of your legs. Look down.

Unless you're built like me, in which case, I suggest finding a mirror.

Steve

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget

My point was that in Dancing Ceroc, the feet are primarily there to make sure that you don't fall over; it doesnÕt actually matter where your feet are, how they got there or where they are pointing. As long as you can keep balance and lead the moves properly you will do OK. Actual 'footwork' improves balance, posture, style, positioning and makes the leading/following of moves easier.





Don't agree Gadget................. yes footwork is not vital when you start although as Franck points out even with the basics men only have to step back and in - so some very basic footwork.

However, some men when they start don't even move their feet that much so makes it very difficult for the women to complete some moves - or they end up running round the man :sick: :eek:


Moving the feet will transfer weight and balance and so make moves look smoother and shoudl allow the man to lead more effectively. As I said earlier - someone like Nigel is so good because of his footwork but it's so smooth that you can actually miss what he's done until you try a move and it doesn't work :tears:


Although the focus of Ceroc appears to be hands and arms - so don't look at the feet ! - the feet are equally vital even if it's not so intricate as Salsa or tango or ballroom. Which is why so many people love it so much !:nice: :cheers:

[Rachel]

I feel rather unqualified to post a reply on this, in the light of all the other expert dancers here, but I very much wanted to agree with Bill and Franck's comments.

Ceroc may sometimes look to be all arms, but I think that you won't get anywhere if you try to dance it from the top down and don't use your feet to position yourself correctly and maintain the correct balance and tension between yourself and your partner (as Lou was saying).

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that a quite a few men go from one extreme to the other when starting Ceroc - from not really moving their feet at all to feeling more comfortable with the arm movements and thinking, oops, I'd better move around a bit. So they then develop a quite bouncy style with steps all over the place. And, even as a woman, I have to admit that I probably did the same. I'm still working very hard on trying to get my feet right - being smoother, not taking too many extra steps, etc.

David and Nigel (in my opinion two of the best male dancers I've seen) are wonderful examples of the 'less is more' concept when it comes to footwork. What often feels really nice for me is when my partner almost just slides his feet forward and back, from one side to another - and that's it, not picking up his feet too much, not taking lots of intricate steps ...

That's all that's really needed to make a great (Ceroc-type) dance - complicated footwork is not essential, although your feet (and balance) must be in the right place in order for the rest of your body to look right.

Those beginners who don't move their feet often seem to drag the ladies into position by leading from the shoulders and upper arms. And it feels so good when they learn to just step into the right place and have their shoulders relaxed. Then you can get all the tension you need to lead the lady from just the fingers and palm of the hand, without having to use most of your body weight to pull her around.

I've just read David's brilliant post on leverage and compression - he gave the analogy of an elastic band ... I was thinking of when I was being towed in the car the other day - one of those stretchy tow-ropes that you can't over-stretch or allow to go slack. That's what I think of now when I think about Ceroc tension!

Anyway, this is all personal opinion, and I'm sure many people will disagree, but it's just what I think feels nicest when I'm being lead in a dance.
Rachel

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Bill
However, some men when they start don't even move their feet that much so makes it very difficult for the women to complete some moves - or they end up running round the man I have been known, when I'm very tired, to do an entire dance without moving my feet... (I know - I'm sad and lazy!)
In the interests of equality, I've also tried to dance with the lady not moving her feet. So instead of her turning, I would move around her. First moves & yoyos work fine, but I can't do any behind the back moves, eg pretzel. It really messes up your brain!

David

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
Don't agree Gadget.................
Yes you do - you your post just confirmed it ! :)

yes footwork is not vital when you start although as Franck points out even with the basics men only have to step back and in - so some very basic footwork.
It's not vital when you start, or as you continue past 'beginner' status - it's only vital if you want to improve your style or positioning on the dance floor.
{And stepping in-out is not what I would call "basic footwork"; it's just keeping your feet under you as you move back and forth}

~snip~ or they end up running round the man :sick: :eek:
Only if they lead it too fast. As DavidB said it's not only the men who can dance glued to the spot; I have danced with one or two beginners that refused to budge - ended up dancing around them like a morrice dancer around a maypole. :sick: :grin:

~snip~someone like Nigel is so good because of his footwork...
And as several have pointed out, the best Ceroc dancers seem to have amazing footwork - but I repeat: Footwork is not vital to be able to dance Ceroc - it is only vital if you want to be able to dance Ceroc with style and grace. :waycool:

Perhaps my definition of 'footwork' differs from yours; to me, footwork is the deliberate practice and focus on developing where and how you place your feet and your body's position over them. It is how your feet move from point A to point B, and the distribution of weight on them. I think that this develops naturally, without thinking about it, as you advance; but to improve and develop particular footwork then you need to focus on/be aware of these points and then practice so that the movement and positioning become physical instinct.
{way too much effort for me :wink:}


Originally posted by Rachel
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that a quite a few men go from one extreme to the other when starting Ceroc - from not really moving their feet at all to feeling more comfortable with the arm movements and thinking, oops, I'd better move around a bit
Stages of evolution for a Ceroc dancer; Static - Wild - Natural - Smooth - Nigel :D {just because bill mentioned him}
I agree, but I think that the wild -> natural is more about distance than taking less steps; not as big steps backwards and less traveling on returns. Confidence plays a big role as well; you don't need to propel yourself or your partner miles to dance.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by DavidB
I've also tried to dance with the lady not moving her feet. So instead of her turning, I would move around her. First moves & yoyos work fine, but I can't do any behind the back moves, eg pretzel. It really messes up your brain!

David

Socrates - you're an inspiration!

So David, I assume that you agree with the point I made earlier in this thread then??? :wink:

Re Waltz - lead & I'll follow but I doubt there'll be much waltzing music at a ceroc night (see other threads...):sad: Rhumba - ceroc has screwed up my timing on the turns but I'll get it sussed. Foxtrot - look on it this way, if my feet get trampled on too much your ear will hurt from the yelping I'll be doing!!! :wink: :wink: :wink: Are we on then? :grin:

Jayne
:nice:

[Bill]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gadget
[B]
{And stepping in-out is not what I would call "basic footwork"; it's just keeping your feet under you as you move back and forth}


And as several have pointed out, the best Ceroc dancers seem to have amazing footwork - but I repeat: Footwork is not vital to be able to dance Ceroc - it is only vital if you want to be able to dance Ceroc with style and grace. :waycool:



Still disagree with this gadget !:rolleyes: :wink: Stepping back and in - however limited is still ( basic) footwork and a number of men don't always even do this. The result is that their partners are usually hauled round them and thrown about.

OK so it's not very technical or very demanding but lest we all forget what it was like during those first few frightening weeks..most of us men probably did the same. Too busy thinking of the arms and the moves to worry about actually moving our feet as well :sad: :sorry

Even though it is simple, stepping back and in or to the side is important to complete moves effectively and provide space for your partner. And you do have to think very clearly where your feet are - and where they are about to go so you can prepare properly. Failure to do so, as I said, means making the woman work even harder - and possibly means he and she will end up banging into other dancers ! And on that note it's just struck me why some men have no sense of space - they're not thinking of where or how they are moving with the result that he charges into other dancers and creates havoc :reallymad

Footwork can add style but as others are saying, some of the best dancers around don't do a great deal more and it's not just planting your feet under your body but positioning your feet in preparation for the move and leading the woman to where you want her to go.

I was pretty much a 'bouncy' dancer for ages and only when I saw myself and then saw good dancers did I realise how it could be done. I still like to jump about sometimes but having seen Viktor I know how I'd like to dance ( if only :sorry :tears: ).

And the elastic band anaolgy is a good one and it's how I often try to demonstrate the tension required when dancing on the nights I'm on duty.

Having read the above you'd almost believe I knew what I was talking about :wink: :D :rolleyes:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
Still disagree with this gadget !:rolleyes: :wink: Stepping back and in - however limited is still ( basic) footwork and a number of men don't always even do this. The result is that their partners are usually hauled round them and thrown about.
That's only because they don't listen to teacher :what:{:na:}


... stepping back and in or to the side is important to complete moves effectively and provide space for your partner.
...and is one of the transitional keystones when leaving the "beginner" status behind you.
I still say that stepping in/out/side is not footwork unless you consciously work at the style, movement and placement of your feet. Otherwise, you are just re-positioning your body and letting your feet move underneath you to stop you from falling over (ie maintaining balance).
A Side-to-Side or First-Move contain basic footwork; you can't actually do the move(s) without being aware of where your feet are and what they are doing!


Footwork can add style but as others are saying, some of the best dancers around don't do a great deal more and it's not just planting your feet under your body but positioning your feet in preparation for the move and leading the woman to where you want her to go.
Anticipation, expectation and observation: knowing how your partner should react and move - knowing what position you need to be in to execute the next move (or what moves you can execute from the end position): It's the key to what makes good dancers 'great' {or BTC}.
But it's not footwork.
Moving your body into the ideal position to correctly read your partner's movements and anticipate your own could be done by just moving your feet under you. This will result in a great dance for the couple and will look very smooth, but there is no style in it. Footwork makes it easier to position yourself into the 'ideal' position and easier to lead the following move, but is not necessary to know the "designated" footwork for a move in order that you can dance it.


Having read the above you'd almost believe I knew what I was talking about :wink: :D :rolleyes:
I can talk all I like, but in practice it sometimes feels like I'm dancing with flippers on! :rolleyes: Tangent I know, but that would make an interesting comp category. :D

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gadget



I can talk all I like, but in practice it sometimes feels like I'm dancing with flippers on! :rolleyes: Tangent I know, but that would make an interesting comp category. :D

There is one. At Chance 2 Dance in March theres a 'best costume' catagory - flippers could be part of a prize winning ensemble :) lol

hmm Flippers could actually improve my dancing :)

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
... I'm dancing with flippers on! ... At Monster Jive Cocktail (great annual event in Surrey) after the cabaret all the teachers were invited back on the floor for a dance. They didn't tell us they would be handing out flippers. I can remember the Lindy teachers doing a pretty good Charleston with them on...

Anyway I get told off now if I call them flippers - apparently I should call them fins.

David

[Dreadful Scathe]

Surely Fins are the bits at the top of fish* (technical term there) and therefore only emulated if you stick a large pointy shaped thing to your back.











*And people from Finland

[Graham]

Okay, better men have already apparently failed to convice him of the error of his ways, but Gadget's refusal to back down is irritating me to the extent that I now feel compelled to have a go too.

Where to start?...... well, let's start at the very beginning (or beginners, anyway). Stepping in/out/sideways IS footwork. What else would you call it? Clearly it is simple footwork, but it is still movement of the feet. And it is completely possible to lead most of the beginner moves which don't involve a switch of position without moving your feet at all. For example First Move, Lady Spin, Wurlitzer, Yoyo, Catapult, Basket, Armjive. I'll be delighted to demonstrate this with you at the party should you wish. :wink:

Moving your feet under you IS footwork!! If you look at someone like Victor, he's not tapdancing! In fact you can hardly see his feet moving at all - he is shifting his weight and positioning his feet/body in such a way as to appear as if he's gliding.

In summary, I really don't understand the distinction you're drawing between footwork and foot movement. To my mind they're the same. There is however a continuum from no footwork at all, through simple footwork (the norm in ceroc), to elaborate footwork which needs to be specially learned.

[Jon]

Totally agree with you Graham and Gadget is irritating me to.

Any movement of the feet is footwork. Yes some moves have a specific pattern but Ceroc is more about interpreting the music and doing whatever feels natural to you, that includes moving the feet and the rest of your body. Thats what makes someone look stylish. You watch Victor or Nigel dance and it's not just the feet that makes them look good they put attitude into their dancing using their whole body.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Graham
...but Gadget's refusal to back down is irritating me...
Back down :confused: Never!!:devil: A discussion on a forum !? whatever next ? :what: :D :D :D


...Stepping in/out/sideways IS footwork. What else would you call it? ~Later~ Moving your feet under you IS footwork!!
At the risk of being repetitive - if that's all you are doing, then I would call it "moving". If you actually place your feet in preparation, or slide them, or add a little kick/flourish, or move it on a different beat than 'normal'; then it's footwork: Some thought and/or style has been used to determine it and/or develop it.


And it is completely possible to lead most of the beginner moves ~ without moving your feet at all.
My point exactly - you don't need your feet to be placed HERE and HERE on THIS beat for the moves to work!


~snip~... he is shifting his weight and positioning his feet/body in such a way as to appear as if he's gliding.
...and I bet that a lot of it is from practice and developing spatial awareness for himself and his partner.
"Footwork" is just a tool - good tools in the hands {feet} of a craftsman like Victor, you get works of art. You can still paint without a brush (dance without footwork), but finger painting will never produce the Mona Lisa (dancing in flippers will never win at The Championships {...unless you're DavidB who's had some practice:wink:}).
{:sick: poor analogies I know, but it's late and I've just finished packing for the w/end}


I really don't understand the distinction you're drawing between footwork and foot movement.
I think we are all arguing the same point: good footwork = good dancer.

[DavidB]

I agree with Gadget (and not just because he's backed me to win the flipper dancing competition.)

When footwork is taught in other dances, you learn two things. Initially you just learn which foot to move when. Eventually you learn how to move your feet, and you realise how important it is.

In Ceroc you don't usually get taught which foot to move. You just get told where to move your body, and you let your feet do what comes naturally. There is nothing wrong with this. It is a brilliantly simple way of making dancing easier to learn. Unfortunately as you improve, you are never taught how to move your feet. Very few people can move their feet (and their body)stylishly without being told what to do. And even when you are taught what to do, most people find it difficult to learn.

It all depends what you call footwork. For me the 'work' is important, as it implies you are doing something active with your feet. If Ceroc doesn't teach 'where', 'when' or 'how' you move your feet, then you aren't doing anything active with them. Just moving your feet under your body is what they do naturally.

If you define footwork as any time your feet move, then every dance has footwork (except my stationary jive!)

David

[Dreadful Scathe]

I think this whole argument is because jive has no specific footwork. If someone was to ask me what salsa footwork was like i could show them, but if they asked for a jive footwork demo i could only show them my version of it..which is not something i could ever describe, only show :). So I can see what Gadget is getting at but just because footwork isnt taught as such you still end up doing it. Everyone has a distinct enough style that their footwork becomes their own - up to a point. Some people do dance very simple forward/back/sidestep footwork and some are bouncier - those two types probably are the base for a lot of dancers - the rest have a style all their own with probably not much commonality :). Of course, the more you dance the more bad/good style points you pick up to make your footwork more and more unique.

Is there a lynch mob with size 10+ feet waiting for Gadget on Saturday (take THIS footwork Gadget)? :D

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Is there a lynch mob with size 10+ feet waiting for Gadget on Saturday (take THIS footwork Gadget)? :D
:what: Hope not :what::really:
I'm going to Gus's workshops, so I'm sure to be shown/picked up on a few 'footwork' tips. ;) {...as to whether they stick or not... that's a different story:sick:}

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget
My point exactly - you don't need your feet to be placed HERE and HERE on THIS beat for the moves to work!

I think we are all arguing the same point: good footwork = good dancer.
Emmmmmmmmmmmmm.............well maybe not. At the risk of being pedantic - :rolleyes: it can also depend on how you define 'good'.

And on the first point - surely you have seen men who don't move their feet so the moves don't work ( just ask some of the women !:sick: ). It takes a conscious effort to move your feet - you can move your body eg sway, but your feet can stay where they are. You can stand still and complete moves but your body might look as if it's moving.

Even the most basic of footwork will enhance moves and indicate to the woman where she should go. More 'stylish' and intricate footwork may make the dancer look better but too much footwork can sometimes be almost as bad as none at all.

As for moving feet on a particular beat........ well there's no strict order of moves obviously but if the fet don't move on a beat then the dance will be out of time to the music !

Perhaps the reason you don't see stepping back and forth or side to side as footwork is because it's now instinctive and you don't reallyhave to think about what you are doing.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
At the risk of being pedantic - :rolleyes: it can also depend on how you define 'good'.
Aww, let's be picky - why not ?
I define "good" as: Anyone who is better than me. {...actually I have no idea how to judge how good I am, so it's more 'anyone who I think looks good on the dance floor': Never mind the moves or technical aspects; it's interpretation, style and the connection between the dancers that I find enjoyable to watch, be it in newbies or advanced dancers.}


And on the first point~snip~
Agreed. (isn't that what I was saying ??)


As for moving feet on a particular beat........ well there's no strict order of moves obviously but if the feet don't move on a beat then the dance will be out of time to the music !
Not necessarily true; static poses, moving over two beats or a half beat are some basic examples. But your feet don't have to move on the beat, as long as the moves do.
{Another point of debate perhaps ?}


Perhaps the reason you don't see stepping back and forth or side to side as footwork is because it's now instinctive and you don't really have to think about what you are doing.
It's been instinctive since I gave up crawling! (and I don't mean back from the pub ;)) That's my point - it's not footwork if you haven't developed it to be a better dancer. By "developed" I mean improved either by experience or consciously practiced positioning and placement of your feet for various moves.

To quote DavidB: There is nothing wrong with this. It is a brilliantly simple way of making dancing easier to learn. - a statement I wholey concur with, but it's not just easy to learn; it's easy to adapt to your own sense of style.
Everyone who dances Ceroc has a unique style and still is able to dance with any partner - I believe that the main reason for this is because of the 'lack of taught footwork' thing.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget
That's my point - it's not footwork if you haven't developed it to be a better dancer. By "developed" I mean improved either by experience or consciously practiced positioning and placement of your feet for various moves.
So it's impossible to have natural footwork, then? I take it that someone invented the concept of dance back in the stone age and then decided that moving your feet in a particular way would be an interesting thing to put in?
I was thinking about this after I'd posted last night, and I was thinking that the way you develop your footwork is by consciously thinking/practising doing something with your feet when normally your movements would be subconscious. However, after you have practised it enough, it will again become subconscious (unless it's extremely intricate) until you decide to develop it further or in a different way.
I assume that this has in fact happened to you in the past, unless of course you still walk like a two-year-old. To re-iterate, I do not see any reason to differentiate between simple/unpractised footwork and footwork you went on a workshop to learn. It's like painting - you have brushwork whether you are Rembrandt or a 4-year-old with his first set of poster paints (or even a decorator with a tin of Dulux!).

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gadget

That's my point - it's not footwork if you haven't developed it to be a better dancer.

I certainly agree with Graham on this - 'footwork' is where you move your feet during dance - nothing more, nothing less. The 'developing' idea doesnt make sense to me - everyone has developed dance footwork by merit of the fact that they dance in the first place (even their first step at their first class) - and I would even suggest that people firmly rooted to the spot whilst jiving would still be doing footwork because they choose to stand still.

:)

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Graham
So it's impossible to have natural footwork, then?It is not impossible, just difficult. For me the problem is thinking about something that I usually do subconsciously. Ask me to walk in a straight line, and I can. But ask me to walk along a balance beam, and I will fall off. Or ask me to walk to a particular timing, and I make it look anything but natural.


I was thinking that the way you develop your footwork is by consciously thinking/practising doing something with your feet when normally your movements would be subconscious. However, after you have practised it enough, it will again become subconscious (unless it's extremely intricate) until you decide to develop it further or in a different way.I agree. Anyone who gets to this stage is definitely doing footwork. We just disagree on whether a beginner who is just trying to get through the move is doing 'footwork' or not. Graham, Jon and DS say he is, Gadget (and myself) say he isn't. It doesn't really matter as long as that beginner enjoys what he is doing.


Originally posted by Graham
'footwork' is where you move your feet during dance - nothing more, nothing less.And to me footwork has nothing to do with 'where' I move my feet, or even 'when'. It is all about 'how' and 'why'.

There isn't a single set way of doing Ceroc. There are plenty of different ways that work, and several that don't work. If we all did the same thing, it would be boring, and the ladies would start describing Chocolate as 'better than dancing'. So hopefully we will continue to disagree.

David

[dougmeister]

"the way you develop your footwork"

Stewart. Your right, foot work isn't taught... but is important!!!!

Watching the stage and whoever is taking the class, U realise (Wed's Glasgow) Roy's comb's have nothing to do with it. . . but he always puts the right foot forward, if you know what I mean.


Keep on cerocing man!!!
:cheers:

PS. Franck's a star man....but give ground control on the music if you know wht a mean.....major tom...............................!!!! ...


:kiss: [B][QUOTE][SIZE=3[B][I][U]

[Graham]

Originally posted by DavidB
There isn't a single set way of doing Ceroc. There are plenty of different ways that work, and several that don't work. If we all did the same thing, it would be boring, and the ladies would start describing Chocolate as 'better than dancing'. So hopefully we will continue to disagree.
Having found myself in the somewhat unusual position of apparently disagreeing with DavidB, he has, in his usual sage manner, managed to reconcile our points of view and I agree with this latest post.

I even thought I was going to have to correct what I had previously said ('footwork' is where you move your feet during dance - nothing more, nothing less) until I realised that there was an incorrect attribution on David's post and that it was actually DS who said this (my correction would have been that it's also when and how).

So no need to take it outside after all. :sad: Unless Gadget wants to disagree again :devil: :wink:

[TheTramp]

and the ladies would start describing Chocolate as 'better than dancing'
Don't they anyway? I can't imagine any of the ladies I know giving anything better marks than chocolate.

Of course, the ideal solution is munching on some chocolate while you're dancing I guess!! :yum:

Steve

[LilyB]

Originally posted by TheTramp

..... I can't imagine any of the ladies I know giving anything better marks than chocolate.

Steve Lest you forget, it is the ladies who have awarded the accolade "BTC" to a certain young man from Aberdeen whom I had the considerable pleasure of ONE dance with last night. Suffice to say, one dance was all I needed to confirm that accolade. I would have wished for more but I cannot be greedy in the face of huge competition from all his other Scottish lassies!!!:tears: :tears: Besides, DavidB just might trade me in for some of those lovely Scottish lassies he spent much of the evening dancing with, so I have to forgo anymore thoughts of "chocolate":wink: :devil: :wink:

LilyB

[TheTramp]

I don't think there's much danger of David trading you in.

And if there was, I'm sure that there would be a huge queue just waiting at your door....

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Bill
surely you have seen men who don't move their feet so the moves don't workHaving said that - if all the men at the party on Saturday were doing this 'advanced' footwork, there might have been room to dance.

I tried my best, but one statue in the midst of that maelstrom didn't stand a chance.

David (the lazy one)

[TheTramp]

Oh, come on David.

I thought we had a very nice dance. Quite surprising the way some space opened up on the dancefloor.

Though, I suppose that anyone in their right minds would have gotten out of the way of you and I!!!

Steve

[Bill]

Originally posted by LilyB
Lest you forget, it is the ladies who have awarded the accolade "BTC" to a certain young man from Aberdeen whom I had the considerable pleasure of ONE dance with last night.
LilyB



And it's unfortunate that it had to be to such a difficult song.and with so little room to move.:sad: :tears:

It was a very real pleasure not just to meet you Lilly - and David- but to have a dance and if you hadn't been so much in demand I'd have asked for another ! . And I have to apologise to one of my partner's as I ignored her while watching the two of you dance later in the evening:sorry

And special thanks for the compliment - 'young' :D :wink: Can't wait to meet up with the two of you again - and to watch you dance again. Thanks for the treat :grin:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Of course, the ideal solution is munching on some chocolate while you're dancing I guess!! :yum:
Ahhhh - so that was the idea at the workshops then... :innocent:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by DavidB


And to me footwork has nothing to do with 'where' I move my feet, or even 'when'. It is all about 'how' and 'why'.


The 'where' is still most important I think - the 'how' and 'why' and 'when' get better with more experience. 'where' is the concsious choice of moving your feet (or not) in the first place so everything hinges on that - thats what I meant. Any movement (or again, lack of movement) is 'footwork'. I think we are talking more about moving feet being a consious decision or not, but if you were a 'natural' dancer who had been dancing since age of 3 or so - i doubt if you would think about where your feet were - but your 'footwork' would be the envy of all. Not that I know anyone like that :). Anyone see what Im getting at ? :)

[dougmeister]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


The 'where' is still most important I think - the 'how' and 'why' and 'when' get better with more experience.

Completely agree with you on this one. You don't think about your feet, they just start dancing for you and the more you dance the better it becomes. :wink:

Watching the really good dancers at the Ten Year Bash was excellent.

:cheers:
Keep on Cerocing man!!!

PS. I never saw any chocolate been eaten while couples danced. :na:

[TheTramp]

That's possibly because you have BTC up there. What ladies need mere chocolate when you have him???

Steve

[Gadget]

You don't give up, do you ?!

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
The 'where' is still most important ~Snip~ I think we are talking more about moving feet being a consious decision or not,

...So because some people's dancing 'footwork' been practiced until it has become reflex, this means that it can be classed with other reflex movements of the feet like taking a step forward or backwards ?
My view is still that the simplest movements of your feet to keep balance while moving your body cannot be classed as 'footwork' when discussing dance.
But when discussing a view-point thing, everyone has their own opinion, and each perspective is just as 'correct' as the next.


Anyone see what Im getting at ? :)
nope - wearing these blinkers :cool: {:grin:}

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gadget
everyone has their own opinion, and each perspective is just as 'correct' as the next.



Except for the ones that are slightly more correct :). Why pigeon hole 'footwork' into 'steps that hold me up' and 'steps that are dancing' as you seem to be saying. Becuase of that you made me concentrate on breathing, and now im worried If i stop i'll die.

...Scathe turns blue

...no change there then

Im still retired, Im just visiting

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Becuase of that you made me concentrate on breathing, and now im worried If i stop i'll die.
But breathing can have techniques as well; Didgeridoo requires circular breathing. Almost all woodwind and brass instruments require breathing techniques. Good swimmers need breathing techniques. For all of them, standard breathing can accomplish the task in hand, but training and practice in the method of breathing makes them proficient at the skill.

Perhaps the term "footwork" would be better read as "footwork technique" when referring to dancing?

(you can breath now ;))

[dougmeister]

Originally posted by Gadget

Didgeridoo requires circular breathing.

Can you eat chocolate while doing the above... :rolleyes:

:cheers:

[In the Zone]

Hi all,

Firstly this is a great resource, and very interesting. I am in the process of tidying up footwork and developing more style (yes this assumes I have some). Its good to see other people are thinking about their dancing so much, I thought I was the only one.

I have been dancing for two years. We have been taught to go back RL, forward RL (guys persepctive) and the ladies the opposite. I understand that MJ is very flexible but there must be some pros and cons for the different ways...??

I have noticed though that some people go back right on a beat and then only tranfer weight on the next beat (no foot movement). As alot of ladies go back L and do only a transfer, one advantage in doing the same thing is your body positions are matched. This is probably unimportant for some but may be important for people trying to take it to a higher level. I am not game to change my feet that drastically...maybe later.

I think one good way to improve your footwork is to put on a variety of songs and step in front of the mirror, and video yourself...a great tool, and yes..a bit scary. What I have found is you make a slight change and work on that and then realise it may only work to certain pace songs eg hips...
then keep practising..

My partner is an advanced dancer and is becoming a solid advanced Modern Jiver (she will be up there with the best before long) , together we are trying to get me more polished while maintaining the fun (I have no other dance experience), .....so a lot of what I say is guided by her experience and out trial and error...but I am evolving with some excellent guidnace and bucket loads of determination

but I still am making very very slow progress...

The biggest tips I see are small steps ,but guided ultimately by type/pace of song....actually step on beat not nearly on beat, try maintaining movement even when not stepping, ie weight transfer from L t R to help recommence stepping on beat, keep the balls of your feetclose to the floor (smooth sliding), work on hips/weight transfer (try to complimet the lady you are dancing with, make changes to your posture-not sure what changes really suit yet, watch videos of as many of the dancers that really look the way you like......slow motion, what are hips doing what are legs doing etc..

I am still working on it, but I believe once you nail stepping, your overall style will kick in and improve in a bound...

Be willing to keep changing and set your idea of failure only as giving up and then ...never give up!!

Cheers
:)