My First thread! SIGNALS

[horsey_dude]

How many signals are used for ceroc moves in general where you are? (I mean something that is not a lead). I don't do any move that I can't lead (no signal) and when I visited england I was told off several times for leading moves with out giving "The signal" first.... The thing is, if the women has tension in her arms and follows the man lead then there should be no problem.

I have danced with dancers from other countries and cities who I have never danced with before and done moves that were not taught where they came from. The ones who had learned the basic principles of following could follow the move no problems because they just use basic Ceroc principles (I don't ever do anything really hard or dangerous with people I don't know well).

So my question is should we use signals at all?

[Lou]

Hmmm... interesting question.

I guess it depends on the move. I think it would be hard to do any Pretzel or a Springer/Nigel's Move (or whatever CEROC calls it!) without a signal of the hand behind the back.

Otherwise, I'd tend to agree that you could get away without signals, but it does make following easier. Of course, the problem with signals is when you unwittingly use the wrong one (e.g., the examples posted on here, where a lady has launched herself into a drop having misread a signal).

[DavidB]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
How many signals are used for ceroc moves in general where you are? (I mean something that is not a lead). I don't do any move that I can't lead (no signal) and when I visited england I was told off several times for leading moves with out giving "The signal" first.... The thing is, if the women has tension in her arms and follows the man lead then there should be no problem.It depends what you call a signal. Is holding your spare hand out (to get the lady's other hand) a signal? It is not a physical lead, so I think it is a signal. But the lady's action is directly related to what you have just done. Even a absolute beginner seems to know that you are asking for her hand.

Putting your hand behind your back (eg Pretzel) is different, because the lady has to do something before she can get your hand. Same with a Neck Break. You can only get away with these because anyone who has done 3 lessons will have seen the move before.

That is about the limit of the signals I use, and I can usually make it through a song without any problems. The vast majority of ladies have a good enough connection to be led into virtually any move. So who needs signals? Especially those that have no relation whatsoever to the move you want to do.

(I have no objection to other people using signals. If it works for them, and their partner knows what to do, then fine.)

David

[Gadget]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
So my question is should we use signals at all?
{I am assuming you mean ÔwaveÕ signals, and not contact/pressure signalsÉ}
I think that signals have a multitude of roles in Ceroc:
They increase the followerÕs observation skills in a class Ð making them actually look at the leadÕs body, arm and hand positions and prepare themselves for the move.
They prepare the lead and get your hands/arms in the correct position (or out of the way) for the move.
They make teaching some moves easier Ð you donÕt need to do a pre-emptive move to get into the correct position to start the move you are about to teach
They tell beginners when to start {personally I prefer to lead a lady onto the dance floor and smoothly into a move, so you kind of start dancing before you even find a space to dance in.}
A signal is just making your partner aware of the position of your body/arms, and that you want them to take hold. All you are doing in most ÔsignalsÕ, is offering your hand in a position different from that expected by your partner Ð hence the little ÔwaveÕ.
In my opinion, the best signals from an observerÕs point of view are ones you donÕt see the dancers doing; subtle, but obvious to your partner. :waycool: This is why I donÕt like the Ôneck-breakÕ signal and am not too sure of the Ôhand-behind-the-head-waveÕ thing that Lorna taught last week Ð very hard to disguise them.:sick:
Basically, ÔsignalsÕ are advanced warning to your partner: Only needed if your moves require the lady to do something you canÕt guide them into or you need to warn your partner you are going to do somethingÉ ÒunusualÓ. :what: (Nb: ÒguideÓ; not ÒleadÓ, as the ÔsignalÕ is part of being led.)

A long-winded way of saying that I think obvious signals shouldnÕt be used in freestyle, but should definitely be taught.

[John S]

HD's question is a good one, as there are so many moves which don't have a pre-defined signal anyway - thinking about it, I guess for me the most important ones aren't so much signals but more, as Lou implies, where the man positions his hand to be taken by the lady (eg Pretzel) or where/how he intends to go next (eg Manspin).

Then maybe there are specific signals for the more athletic moves, more as warnings that something potentially dangerous is about to happen - but as I don't tend to do these anyway they don't interest me particularly.

I'm sure the technical experts will have more considered views on this whole topic, (quick edit as David B and Gadget had already replied while I was typing this - didn't know that as they hadn't signalled their intention to do so!!!) but just to trivialise it for a moment, can anyone work out what signals Lou's little stick avatar is giving????:what:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by John S
can anyone work out what signals Lou's little stick avatar is giving? I'm sure it's the solo hip-hop that Donna taught at Camber this weekend. Or it could be the Egyptian version of the Macarena?

[Franck]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
So my question is should we use signals at all? Aaah, the age old question of signals!
I am surprised it has not been discussed already in here, so thank you for bringing it up. :cheers:

Many people have already answered that it is not easy to define what a signal is exactly. In my view, offering a spare hand is not a signal, but a necessary part of the move, however, when you start offering the hand in 'odd' ways, behind the back, behind the head, or with the arm in an 'L' shape, you start to blur the line with signals.

My personal view is that I would rather not have any signals at all, but that for Beginners, they are a necessary evil :wink:

Leading clearly is probably what matters most, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, signals can lead to more misunderstandings than they are worth. In particular, I resent signals for Drops / Dips and other dangerous moves... Those might be ok with a regular partner, so that you can do a semi-choreographed routine, and add some really spectacular moves (say at the Champs for example), but if those signals are taught in a class, then you get into dangerous waters, where a follower might read an innocent hand gesture as the signal to a drop, and result in potential injury :really:

On the other hand, signals do help Beginners, making them focus and giving them something to do, as well as pick up the moves faster and give them an inkling of what leading is about, making them think in advance and prepare for the next move etc...

From a woman/follower's perspective, I suspect they can be a big help as well, not all men lead very clearly most of the time, and I expect seeing a signal, can be quite a relief sometimes...


Franck.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by John S
I'm sure the technical experts will have more considered views on this whole topic, (quick edit as David B and Gadget had already replied while I was typing this - didn't know that as they hadn't signalled their intention to do so!!!)
"Views"- yes, I have those... "technical expert" - :rolleyes: HA! :D that made me laugh :)
{I think that all three of us posted at rougly the same time; I didn't see either of yours untill I went back in again! We will really need to get these signals worked out ;)}

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
I am assuming you mean ÔwaveÕ signals, and not contact / pressure signalsI was trying to think of some of these 'pressure signals' last week. The only obvious one was the Archie's Spin, when the man's thumb gently puts some pressure on the back of the lady's hand. (I don't like this signal because it could be painful if the man uses too much pressure. But when I've tried doing it without the thumb, it only works about half the time.)


In my opinion, the best signals from an observerÕs point of view are ones you donÕt see the dancers doing; subtle, but obvious to your partner.I like this idea. I also try to make it apply to leads as well. A lead should be absolutely obvious to your partner, but invisible to anyone else. I'm not trying to lead an audience - so there is no need to make it big.

It is different when teaching - the teacher sometimes has to make to leads big so the class can see what he is doing. Unfortunately this style sometimes filters down to the class, and every freestyle move is led like you are in front of 200 people.

David

[Dreadful Scathe]

I agree with Franck on this - signals shouldnt be needed most of the time, and if you travel to different ceroc venues you simply cant give signals as they may well be ignored (i just carry on dancing when that happens). Pretzels and other hand behind back moves do not have signals in my opinion - waving a hand from the front or back is no different, even a beginner realises you're waving it about for a reason and tends to grab it - I dont think its a signal as such. Any move where you have a hand in a funny position may be confusing but you are still leading too - an example is the neck break signal - she may not know what it is but you are still pulling her toward you with your left without any hint of a turn - so turning her out and swapping hands at her shoulder is still a lead move, the signal just makes it easier.

Luckily ive never had anyone confuse my signals for something else to a dangerous end, but i remember there was one move i learnt in London that had a not too complicated lead that dancers up here saw as a signal for something else and turned the opposite way without me leading them as they anticipated something else - I think they thought id forgotten the move they were trying to do when i had no clue what it was :)

Another good example of lead and signal combined is the Ballroom drop - the signal is right hand across your own chest whilst mens right to ladies right - lady grabs with spare hand (if shes knows its a ballroom drop or not) - you turn her out with straight arms, lead back in and drop - except if she didnt realise it was a signal AND a lead... she would have been following the lead and just stands there ...so you do a double handed return instead of the drop (before she gets a chance to realise thats not what you meant all along :) )

I also do a really dangerous drop called 'the neck drop' where the lady falls over and gets caught by one hand behind the neck is lowered to the floor and back up. The 'lead' for this is me saying 'neck drop', leading into a wurlitzer and placing my hand behind the neck when she returns and lowering from an upright position as she falls - funnily enough only my regular partner would follow all three of those :). (And if she didnt feel my hand at the back of her neck she wouldnt drop - could be sore after all :) )

[Dreadful Scathe]

wow is that my longest post ever :D

[Lou]

Originally posted by John S
but just to trivialise it for a moment, can anyone work out what signals Lou's little stick avatar is giving????:what: [/B]
:sorry :sorry :sorry :sorry :sorry :sorry :sorry :sorry :sorry

ermmm.... it's... ermmm.....

Steps' dance routine for "5 6 7 8"

Oi'll get me coat!

[Will]

I thought it was some sort of egyptian belly dance :confused:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Another good example of lead and signal combined is the Ballroom drop - the signal is right hand across your own chest whilst mens right to ladies right - lady grabs with spare hand (if shes knows its a ballroom drop or not)

Uurrrr ..... methinks this is maybe a good example of singal confusion :confused: The official ceroc signal is actualy "The man's left hand on his right upper arm". Thats the way most independant instructors, including myslef, teach the move. The real lead is actualy a combination of the turn out and the change in hand grip. I'm curious as to where the hand across chest came into vogue. Is that how its taught in Scotland?



I also do a really dangerous drop called 'the neck drop' where the lady falls over and gets caught by one hand behind the neck is lowered to the floor and back up. The 'lead' for this is me saying 'neck drop', leading into a wurlitzer and placing my hand behind the neck when she returns and lowering from an upright position as she falls
Very true ... another dangerous move ... but loads of variations to get into it. You can just lead a lady into it without a signal ... but as you point out ... its a move that should only be done with a regular partner.

The only other common signal drop that comes to mind is the Robbie Dip .... not currentlly an official Ceroc move but fairly cmmon down South. However, I've seen and experienced this signal mistaken a few times so its now used very sparingly.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gus


Uurrrr ..... methinks this is maybe a good example of singal confusion :confused: The official ceroc signal is actualy "The man's left hand on his right upper arm". Thats the way most independant instructors, including myslef, teach the move. The real lead is actualy a combination of the turn out and the change in hand grip. I'm curious as to where the hand across chest came into vogue. Is that how its taught in Scotland?


I've never seen it taught at Ceroc - I was taught it at Le Roc. It seems to be generally understood, so it must be close :). Right hand across chest is signal for a jump, left hand for ball room drop :).

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


I've never seen it taught at Ceroc - I was taught it at Le Roc. It seems to be generally understood, so it must be close :). Right hand across chest is signal for a jump, left hand for ball room drop :).

Ahh ... sorry ... still none the wiser, though it does echo with my vaugue memories of my early LeRoc lessons ... any chance you could show me sometime over the weekend?

Re not seeing it at Ceroc ... probably just as well .. its yet another of the infamous RED moves ... so not to be taught from stage .... probably just as well as this drop is probably done wrong more times than any other drop.

However ... its does raise a point .... if there are signal differnces between Ceroc and LeRoc ... arguably the two Big Boys of Modern Jive, this could lead to some confusion ..... comments?

[Lou]

Originally posted by Gus
The official ceroc signal is actualy "The man's left hand on his right upper arm". Thats the way most independant instructors, including myslef, teach the move. The real lead is actualy a combination of the turn out and the change in hand grip.

Yup - identical signal in LeRoc - at least it is around here. The hand is held straight, in a line with the arm (not bent at all from the wrist or knuckles) - so it looks quite... ermmm.... "pointy".

I think the vast majority of our signals are the same as for CEROCTM . I'm trying to think of possible exceptions. We have a couple of different signals for Change Places - the one used most often in the classes I attend is for the man to make a fist in the air with his right hand - arm out to the side, with elbow bent. Ermmmm... signal for Fig of 8 is right hand in the air, like as if you're trying to attract Teacher's attention.... Do you have that?

I haven't done enough CEROCTM to really comment! Sorry! :nice:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lou
signal for Fig of 8 is right hand in the air, like as if you're trying to attract Teacher's attention.... Do you have that?


Why would you signal for a figure of 8? Not being funny but all that really happens to the lass is that she does a travelling anti-clockwise turn ...... coming back to something said previously, I would think an signal is only used in anger when you want your partner to do something 'unnatural':what: , like stop (a la neckbreak), or go flying through the air with gay abandon (a la 1st move jump etc).

[Lou]

Originally posted by Gus


Why would you signal for a figure of 8? ....., I would think an signal is only used in anger when you want your partner to do something 'unnatural':what: , like stop (a la neckbreak), or go flying through the air with gay abandon (a la 1st move jump etc).

:wink: I had this inkling I'd get a response to the Fig of 8 signal! A CEROCer came to the Yate class recently & was very bemused by it.

The only thing I can think of, is that it's a beginner's move & as thus a signal is (as Franck succinctly put it) a "necessary evil".

Do you also have the "tap on the shoulder", to indicate a double Fig of 8?

And what's the signal for 1st Move Jump? I can't remember us having one, but that's not to say there isn't one. :wink:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Lou



And what's the signal for 1st Move Jump? I can't remember us having one, but that's not to say there isn't one. :wink:

I got my signals confused in earlier post - the 1st move jump signal i learned was right hand taps your own right shoulder - left hand to ladies right hand hold .I said right hand across chest in previous post - didnt make sense - doing moves is easier than explaining them so dont ask me to explain anything complicated, ill get confused :).

[Lou]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
doing moves is easier than explaining them

Tell me about it! :what:

I was just thinking, and the only way I think I'd know it was a 1st Move Jump, would be the position of the Man when he bends down during the move, preparing for the jump bit. Oh, and probably he would have whispered "jump" at some point! :wink:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Lou
Do you also have the "tap on the shoulder", to indicate a double Fig of 8?

And what's the signal for 1st Move Jump? I can't remember us having one, but that's not to say there isn't one. :wink: Very interesting insight in the various differences across Leroc / Ceroc and other Modern Jive Organizations... :nice:
Re. the Figure of 8, I am also at a loss to see the necessity of a signal! As long as the man does not pull his partner forward, she won't be travelling, leaving him ample time and space to turn under his hand. However, after his turn, we usually teach a signal, to send the lady into her turn, a slight dip of the hand, which (in theory) ensures that the lady does not try to turn too early...
No tap for a double Figure of 8 either, sorry :sorry

Re. the First move jump, this is one of the few lifts that are safe enough to teach in a regular (not overly crowded) class, and as such, a signal of sort became necessary. It is perfectly possible to lead the move without any signal, through change of Right hand position, flattening of the left hand, and general lowering of you and your partner in preparation for the jump, etc... But in practise, where most men would lead inadequately, a signal, tap on the shoulder, became a useful shortcut.
This does however highlight the short-comings of signals, as most men then assume that signalling is sufficient, when plainly, based on the above preparation required, it is not!

Finally, regarding the Ballroom Drop, I would have thought that the main signal was the change of hand-grip, rather than the hand offered across the chest! Offering the hand across the chest is a way into the move, not a signal that you're going to do that move, as many moves would start that way.
Changing the grip and eventually lowering your partner, is both signal and lead.

Franck.

[TheTramp]

I really don't like 'signals' as leads (I'm taking the view that offering the hand behind the back for a pretzel isn't really a signal, but an integral part of the move (and other similar examples)).


Right hand across chest is signal for a jump, left hand for ball room drop .
This is exactly the sort of reason for not wanting to use signals. They are very easy to mis-interpret, and could lead to accidents. I've also found that they tend to vary in different parts of the country, ie. a hand signal for a jump in London, is a signal for a drop in Brighton (or a signal for your partner to run off the floor, screaming, in Aberdeen).

The only signal to ever use is to bring your partner into a close move and say the name of the move. And if there's anything other than comprehension in her expression (fear is a definite no-no), then the move should be aborted.

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Franck


Finally, regarding the Ballroom Drop, I would have thought that the main signal was the change of hand-grip, rather than the hand offered across the chest! Offering the hand across the chest is a way into the move, not a signal that you're going to do that move, as many moves would start that way.
Changing the grip and eventually lowering your partner, is both signal and lead.


Good point - the hand hold is the main signal as if you didnt do it the lady would not expect a ballroom drop even if you have put your hand across chest (i suppose for other moves my right hand would be slightly further out and not touchin my chest!). Just proves my point though ...i cant explain moves very well :).

[Lou]

:wink: I agree - our differences always fascinate me!

I'm conditioned to see the signal! :grin: It's also a kind of style point, as the man sweeps down with his right hand, to change the handhold into the fig of 8. btw.. we also have the dip. :wink:

We also sometimes use the tap on the shoulder, going into a catapult variation. It just lets the lady know to expect the unexpected.

You're right, though, Franck - there's always more than the signal to tell you to expect a move (like the ballroom drop). The lead is of utmost importance, no matter what "signal" you're getting.

[Graham]

I guess I'm rehashing here, but to summarise my understanding, a signal is a handy mechanism used when going into a move which
a) resembles another (probably beginner's) move, and
b) is easier to execute when the follower is expecting to do something other than the "obvious" move.
A hand offer (even behind back) is therefore not a signal in this sense.

I agree with Franck: I don't see the benefit of a Figure 8 signal - I can't think how the move could be mistaken for anything more obvious (I'm sure that with my limited knowledge there are bound to be similar moves which are less obvious), and as long as you lead it properly the follower is unlikely to do anything other than what's intended (apart from starting her turn too early as already mentioned). However, I'll try to remember to throw this move in a few times next time I'm dancing with some lerocers, and see if they manage without the signal.

[Emma]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


1st move jump signal i learned was right hand taps your own right shoulder

Aaaah..of course, that's what that signal is for. My problem with that signal is that every time I see it I think 'er..I know I know the move that follows that signal, but I'm buggered if I can remember what it's for'. Obviously by the time I'm through thinking this, the moment has kinda passed ! :what:

I'm sure someone has said something intelligent about this already, but that's the problem with signals...dummies like me can't remember what they're for! :sorry Helps me a whole lot if someone whispers the name of the move in my ear. It might be cheating/unprofessional/whatever, but it's a load less confusing!

[Franck]

Originally posted by Emma
Helps me a whole lot if someone whispers the name of the move in my ear. It might be cheating/unprofessional/whatever, but it's a load less confusing! Problem then, is that you have to remember the name of the moves :really:
Especially as different dance organizations use different names for the same move...

No easy answer, just a good lead, and no dangerous moves with a partner you are not familiar with!

Franck. :nice:

[MartinHarper]

Rules for reacting to signals on the social dancefloor:
1: If you don't recognise the signal, follow the lead (accurately).
2: If you do recognise the signal, follow the lead (tolerantly).
3: If there are no signals, follow the lead (stylishly).

[LMC]

If the follower "ignores" your signals on the dance floor:

If she is otherwise following accurately/tolerantly/stylishly, she probably hasn't recognised the signal.

Please do NOT say condescendingly "Oh, don't you know that move then?"
Please do NOT just stop mid-dance to teach her the move - ask first
Please DO carry on dancing/smiling.

[Saxylady]

I don't find signals that helpful, especially when dancing in a different region (eg. 40 miles down the road!). I've come across several different signals for first move jump and the bunny-jump or hip-hop (some are interchangeable, as I discovered to one chap's discomfiture :rofl: ) - and as there are also different regional names for these moves a word in the ear doesn't help either.

Taps on the shoulder tend to make me go 'what's he tapping me for?' and then I mess up a move I could otherwise follow perfectly well.

Probably 'signals' that are really a slight exaggeration of the natural lead for a move are the most useful.

I find the two-fingered salute for the wallaby/boomerang insulting (or perhaps it's just the way Bristol guys do it :wink: ) and I kept thinking one man was being really affectionate as patted my hand when it was actually the signal for a drop-kick (which I hadn't been taught at that point). We executed the move several times in different dances with no problem, but I still didn't tie up the signal with the move.

OK - I'm probably a bit dim where this is concerned, so my motto, when I'm not sure what's going on, is: follow the lead (carefully)!