Women leading...

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
I ashamedly have to admit i am one of those "wimmen" who get carried away and try to lead :sorry
I did line dancing for 5 years, and dancing alone you can basically do what you like when you like. I think i do it more when the guy isn't a very strong lead or if i'm dancing to a great track that you can add lots of "extras" , get into the musical interpretation. There's nothing nicer than seeing dancers hit a beat with a cool move that fits perfect.:D
Actually one guy threatened to slap me at Edinburgh if i didn't let him lead!...jokely of course....I HOPE!!:really:

So apologies to any of the guys out there who have unfortunately experienced my "lead" first hand :sorry

Although it does have some advantages.........
I think i'm not too bad at keeping guys in the correct rhythmn. Beginners, or maybe if they're not sure of the track ..(too fast/slow)
now i'm wondering if i should have snaffled the little miss bossy before Heather did :yum: :p


filthycute x x

Re-reading FilthyCute's comments made me think about the whole subject of women leading...
I have been known to be quite tough on the subject (if you have ever done a workshop with me, you'll know what I mean :wink: :nice: ).

My general views of course is that women should not lead at all (I know I live in cloud cuckoo land :nice: ).
My reasoning is that you are dancing with an experienced man (leader), you will miss out on potentially exciting move variations by leading / resisting / etc...
If however, you are dancing with a beginner, then you might help up to a point, but just as likely to confuse him and possibly undermine his confidence (in leading)...

The above does not mean that as a woman (follower) you are not able to control some aspects of your dancing, you can slow yourself down (in a turn / spin) or add extra spins / walks to a move; Usually to very good creative / stylistic effect, and the man should be able to accomodate your variations, and if possible respond :waycool:

I would be interested in other people's perspective on all this, both from men and women...

Franck.

P.S. Eventhough I used your quote FilthyCute, this is not directed at you at all :wink: :nice:

[John S]

This is dangerous territory, but what the heck....!

I don't often find the ladies I dance with trying to lead as such - sometimes they might think I am starting a particular move when in fact I have something else in mind - which I just put down to my failure to signal my intentions clearly enough. :o But that just adds to the fun of dancing together and usually results in our laughing at each other (could be wrong there - maybe they just laugh at me :()

If everyone was step-perfect and got it right every time then it might look better, but I don't think it would be as much fun, which for me is what it's all about.:D And anyway, we learn from our mistakes at least as much as from our successes.

Where I think the woman has a vital role to play is in setting the STYLE of the dance. I know that I could dance exactly the same moves with 5 different women and it would look almost like 5 different dances, as each woman brings her own style and interpretations to the routines. Eg I might like to dance slow and sleazy :rolleyes: but if the lady I'm dancing with has a fast, bouncy, distant style then it's HER style that will dictate the dance - at least, that's my opinion!

But if there's a need to slap filthycute around to put her in her place then that's ok, too. (Only joking, fc, please don't give me the Tayside version of the Glasgow Kiss):D

[Stuart M]

I reckon the gals in Glasgow are good on this Ð I honestly canÕt think of any here who habitually try to lead! The only times I really notice problems is when
a) dancing with a new partner Ð novice or experienced, it doesnÕt matter
b) first dances after an intermediate class which had a dip or seducer in it.
c) dancing with Mairi on stage during a lesson, but that doesnÕt count!

In general you have to respect the ladies Ð it must be difficult trusting someone youÕve never danced with before, and there will always be some apprehension involved. Maybe more priority should be given at the classes to showing women how they can exert some (some!) control over the dance without leading e.g. the methods suggested by Franck above. IÕd also note that increased eye contact is a big help - as long as it's not like this
:what:

I did once try using ÒsurpriseÓ moves (e.g. the wurlitzer variant where you catch her waist and reverse the spin) to assert control, but quickly realised this was almost dance floor bullying, so I only use them now with women I know fairly well, or get an instant rapport with. Rapport Ð thereÕs a very important word Ð how about a class called ÒDance Floor RapportÓ, Franck? IÕm sure youÕd get takers for lessons which just concentrated on ÒreadingÓ a dance partner.

Also, itÕs important we blokes radiate a certain level of confidence. Not too much, mind - then your partner may spend half her time in a ÒHope heÕs not going to try THAT oneÓ mode, which is no fun. The single biggest factor which makes ladies try to lead is a lack of trust, IMHO. Am I right?:confused:

So, maybe it boils down to ÒHow can a man gain a womanÕs trust instantly?Ó Now, if I knew the answer to THAT one IÕd be rich, happyÉ and probably very tired :wink::wink:

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Stuart M


ÒHow can a man gain a womanÕs trust instantly?Ó



Simple. If you can dance in time to the music just do it with confidence. Even if you don't feel confident, pretend that you are and your woman will pick up on it and trust you. Hold your head up, make eye contact, lead the moves (but without breaking any arms..) and smile. The only times I don't trust my partner are when it's the first dance or if it comes across that he's not at least 90% sure of what he's doing.


Originally posted by Stuart M


Now, if I knew the answer to THAT one IÕd be rich, happyÉ and probably very tired :wink::wink:



I'm not rich (but making plans...:wink: ), I'm happy and my legs are usually aching by the end of the night! :nice:

Of course this only applies on the dance floor and other similar situations. How to really make a woman trust is another matter...:wink:

Hope this helps!
Jayne

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Jayne
Hold your head up, make eye contact, lead the moves (but without breaking any arms..) and smile.

Yes, miss. I'll sit up straight as well...


:wink:

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Stuart M


Yes, miss. I'll sit up straight as well...


:wink:

and write out 100 times "I will not be cheeky".:wink: :grin: :p

Jayne

[Fox]

Hehehehehe...good one Jayne :wink:

good points on all sides though, my only trouble is finding it hard to lead girls that are very tense, I end up being more forceful than I usually am and I resort to more basic moves. In saying that, it happens rarely. I usually find that if girls tend to lead then its during a lesson.....which is understandable.

Fox
~boogie boogie~

[filthycute]

Is there some kind of conspiracy going on here?:eek:

Franck giving me a telling off.....John threatening to slap me....:tears:

Ok, i'll try to behave like a lady in future :D

PS...^^^^^^ this does not translate into "i will be a pushover" lol:grin: :wink:
i think we should have a new poll on the forum. I'll dance with every guy i find and you can have a new "Is FC a bitch or a breeze?" vote hahahahahaha

filthycute x x

[filthycute]

Ok, on a more serious note i do understand the importance of the "men lead, women follow" aspect. And honestly i don't do it on purpose:innocent: i just find it hard to stop myself getting carried away :grin:
I've never been to a ceroc worshop before, but i did go to a swing workshop by Simon Selmon last year. What he did was made all the women close their eyes at the start of the move so you felt the man leading you rather than see him. Good technique for the likes of me :wink: Think i'll need to dig out a blindfold for Wednesday :D

filthycute x x

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
Is there some kind of conspiracy going on here?:eek:

Franck giving me a telling off.....John threatening to slap me....:tears:

Ok, i'll try to behave like a lady in future :D

PS...^^^^^^ this does not translate into "i will be a pushover" lol:grin: :wink:
i think we should have a new poll on the forum. I'll dance with every guy i find and you can have a new "Is FC a bitch or a breeze?" vote hahahahahaha

filthycute x x
Well fc, no need to cry, no conspiracy or telling off...:nice:
Though I look forward to seeing you on your best behaviour soon.

By the way, I am posting this from the French Alps, fantastic sunshine, great snow etc... You have to admire my dedication :wink:
Anyway, if you want to start a poll, all you have to do is to start a new thread and you will get the option to include a poll at the bottom of the page. Easy! :wink:
If you want to practise, you can do so in the test forum :nice:

Well time to get back to the slopes :yum: :grin:

Franck

[Fox]

I've never noticed ya lead before Filthycute!!

ps I refuse to vote :wink:

just in case ya gimma a black eye....hehehehe

Fox

[Franck]

Originally posted by Fox
I've never noticed ya lead before Filthycute!!

ps I refuse to vote :wink:

just in case ya gimma a black eye....hehehehe

Fox
It's ok Fox, the voting is secret anyway... :wink: :devil:

Franck.

[filthycute]

No, i was kidding....really....don't vote....i don't wanna be a bitch :tears: :wink:

Me give you a black eye Fox?....never! :innocent:

filthycute x x

[John S]

Originally posted by filthycute
be young, be foolish, be happy.

Well, as the song goes, "Two out of Three ain't Bad"

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
Think i'll need to dig out a blindfold for Wednesday :D

filthycute x x
Hey, that sounds like a great theme for a Ceroc party soon... All women blindfolded :devil:
Unless we combined that idea with the commando one in the other tread... :wink:

On second thought, I think I need another holiday. :)

Franck.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Franck

Hey, that sounds like a great theme for a Ceroc party soon... All women blindfolded :devil:
Unless we combined that idea with the commando one in the other tread... :wink:

On second thought, I think I need another holiday. :)

Franck.

Or a cold shower.... :p

Welcome back Franck!

Jayne

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jayne

Or a cold shower.... :p
Tried that before posting :wink: and it obviously did not work... :innocent:

Originally posted by Jayne

Welcome back Franck!

Jayne Thanks Jayne, it is good to be back. :nice:

Franck.

[Graham]

Perhaps we should start a new mutual admiration thread for Franck & Jayne. :wink:

Anyway, I've been wondering for a while whether it's socially acceptable to point out to a dancer that she is leading, either in the class or in freestyle. In particular I find that some beginner women are extremely difficult to lead, especially in the class. I can almost guarantee that each class someone will say to me "I can't remember the first move we did". Sometimes I point out that it really doesn't matter whether they do or not, since it's me who has to remember. Other times I hold back, wondering if this will sound patronising.

Come to think of it, I've often wondered whether I should be giving "pearls of wisdom" :wink: to beginners generally, eg "Please try to leave some circulation in my hand".

Any thoughts or advice welcome.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Graham
Anyway, I've been wondering for a while whether it's socially acceptable to point out to a dancer that she is leading, either in the class or in freestyle. In particular I find that some beginner women are extremely difficult to lead, especially in the class. I can almost guarantee that each class someone will say to me "I can't remember the first move we did". Sometimes I point out that it really doesn't matter whether they do or not, since it's me who has to remember. Other times I hold back, wondering if this will sound patronising.

Come to think of it, I've often wondered whether I should be giving "pearls of wisdom" :wink: to beginners generally, eg "Please try to leave some circulation in my hand".

Any thoughts or advice welcome.

Well, this is a very delicate subject... Generally, it is better to refrain from giving advice or correct your dance partner (You can still help out during the class, by pointing out which way to turn etc...).
Egos are very fragile and confidence can be very easily dented, especially when starting out a dance class.
I reckon, that any comment made should be positive and encouraging, that might be glossing over glaring mistakes, but overall, most beginners grow out of those, whereas if they get a negative experience early on, they might not come back at all... :sad:

Bear in mind that some new people might assume that you are also a beginner and therefore not really qualified to comment anyway :sorry
It happens often when I do the Beginners class (on the floor rather than on stage), people tell me that I am doing the move wrong (I might too!)... :grin:

Generally a smile and a positive comment will achieve much more in relaxing or helping a beginner than a correction.

Franck.

[filthycute]

well Graham, me being a self-confessed "women leader" :sorry i Prefer to be told when i'm in the wrong. I don't do it on purpose....just me getting carried away :sick: it's not the kind of thing i want to continue doing, so it's fine being "put in my place" as such :D tactfully of course :wink:

or just follow John's advice and slap me :D

filthycute x x

[John S]

Originally posted by filthycute

or just follow John's advice and slap me :D

filthycute x x

That's right, fc, just call me an old slapper.:( :(

[Gus]

Bear in mind that some new people might assume that you are also a beginner and therefore not really qualified to comment anyway

Good point Frank ... I've had a few beginners correct me before now becuase I did a move slighlty differently to the way it had been taught.

However, if you're dancing with someone, as I was on Thursday, and they're trying to pull your arms out of your sockets ... for the common good of humanity it may be acceotable to suggest that they might try a more relaxed approach. If they take offence ... well in all honesty if someone is damaging their partners and not willing to take gentle advice then you're porbably better off not dancing with them ... or is that a little controversial?:confused:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
However, if you're dancing with someone, as I was on Thursday, and they're trying to pull your arms out of your sockets ... for the common good of humanity it may be acceptable to suggest that they might try a more relaxed approach. If they take offence ... well in all honesty if someone is damaging their partners and not willing to take gentle advice then you're porbably better off not dancing with them ... or is that a little controversial?:confused: The whole concept is probably a minefield :sad: but here goes:
It all depends on who you are "correcting" and their perception of how relevant your advice is. Note I mentionned "their" perception. If a teacher or taxi-dancer corrects them, they might take it as part of the teaching / learning experience (though, any criticism might still hurt...), but if they are being told they do something wrong during Freestyle, and by another dancer, whom they do not know, and therefore don't know how trustworthy his / her advice is, then it can be counter-productive.
What applies to a Beginner or a new member, would also be different for someone who has been dancing for a while...

Most of the time, the leading / tension, will not be such a problem, it might stop you doing more interesting variations etc... but is rarely that uncomfortable or dangerous. The women (or men) that are actually hurting their partners tend to get fewer and fewer dances. :sad:

Workshops (especially Beginners) are ideal for learning to follow and to relax tension in the arms. One of the tricks that is very effective, which I was doing yesterday in a Beginners workshop in Glasgow, is to get everyone to do "Air dancing" (no, not acrobatics), where both partners hold their hands a couple of inches apart when dancing, thereby encouraging the men to lead better and more clearly, and the women to pay attention to the man's hand as well as being more self-reliant, using their own legs for travelling rather than pulling on the man's arm...

Just a side note for all you women out there reading this, most of you are doing fine and are not really leading. It's just nice for us guys to have something to moan about :wink:

Franck.