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bradders
8th-February-2005, 01:50 PM
London Ceroc Champs
Incorporating the VII UK Dance Championships
Bank Holiday Sunday 1st May 2005
'Where the Stars always come to the Top!"

Hammersmith Palais, London W6

We return to the historic Hammersith Palais for the seventh Ceroc Champs.
Doors open 10.30am
13.5 hours of adrenalin fueled competition and the endorphin driven highs of freestyle with dancers from across the world.
9 competition categories including a new category 'Aerials' (so if you think you can fly sign up now as restricted entry!).
Visit our website www.cerocchamps.com for further information and to book entry tickets and competition places on line.
Remember we restrict entry, and this event sold out last year.
Secure your place in the category of your choice now, and avoid disappointment later in the year.
Application forms will be available at all Ceroc venues within the next couple of weeks.
If you want one sent to you email info@cerocchamps.com or call our Champs Hotline on 079 500 432 65

Ceroc London will be hosting other events in the Capital that weekend (details to follow) so if you want to make a long, dance packed Bank Holiday weekend of it, start making your travel plans now.

Hope you can make it!

David Bradley

alex
8th-February-2005, 02:02 PM
From www.cerocchamps.com
OPEN CATEGORY TROPHY
Competition Rules
1 major airstep, (lift, jump and acrobatic move) per track plus drops and leans of any kind will be permitted.
Wonder why they put that rule in? :devil:

Andy McGregor
8th-February-2005, 02:37 PM
Hope you can make it!

David Bradley


Dear Dave

Thank you for your kind invitation to attend the London Ceroc champs. Before I make my final decision regarding attendance I was wondering if you'd solved the problems I observed last year. To aid you in replying I've listed the main ones below.

1. The judging method is top secret - we don't know how the positions are calculated which makes it quite difficult to work out what the judges are looking for and how that influences our scores. Will the judging method be available to competitors?

2. Last year some of the judges scores did not make it on to the computer for the Lucky Dip and although at least 2 judges had marked my partner and me for promotion to the next round these marks were not recorded on the PC - will there be some kind of independent scrutiny of scoring and calculation of positions or will it again be secret? And will the judges scores be published?

3. Last year in the semi-finals all competitors from the quarter finals were told to present themselves, changed and ready, at the edge of the dance floor immediately prior to commencement of the semi-finals. This meant that those of us who got through jumped for joy and sped onto the floor to take part in their heat - but that those of us who hadn't got through had a walk of shame back to the changing room. I enjoyed both of these situations and the joy felt at qualifying for the semis of the old gits fell far short of the humiliation I felt at not hearing my number for the Advanced :tears: So, are the competitors going to be treated like they are human beings with feelings or will it be the same as last year?

4. Last year the sheets of paper bearing the numbers of those to be promoted from the first rounds were posted in a narrow area resuling in great congestion and confusion. Is somewhere more accessible going to be found?

5. Last year my friend Kate cut her head open on exposed bolts on the underneath of the staircase as this area was very dark. Will the lighting be brighter to reduce the chances of accidents?

6. Will we have our bags searched for food and drink on the way in?

7. Will we have to queue for ages in the rain/weather while people ahead of us have their bags searched?

8. Will Rob Coward be pursuaded to come?

9. Will I ever get the bottle of Old Git wine I was promised for being a finalist in the Old Git category last year?

As you can see, I was less than happy last year. My main concern is that the competitors were treated shabbily and kept in the dark, literally and in terms of information about the judging method and marks. And, we were left humiliated at the side of the dance floor too :blush:

If you tell me that you are happy with the way things ran last year I will have to decline your kind invitation. I would love to be able to come as I think the event has the potential to be great :clap:

Of course you can choose to ignore my comments or say something bland like 'they have been taken on board by management'. And I'm sure your event will continue to be a sell-out without my support. But, wouldn't it be nice if it was even better? And that is what I'm suggesting :flower:

Hopefully I'll see you at the New Improved London Ceroc Championships.

Kind regards.

Andy xxx :hug:

Will
8th-February-2005, 03:36 PM
Good News. Can't wait. :clap: :clap: :clap:

What's the reason for the name change? Are Ceroc planing to hold competitions all over the country or something?

Bill
8th-February-2005, 04:22 PM
9. Will I ever get the bottle of Old Git wine I was promised for being a finalist in the Old Git category last year?


Andy xxx :hug:


The wine was pretty good Andy..... :whistle: :D ... I almost asked for 2 - we could have shared a bottle :wink: There seemed to be plenty left so wonder where the rest went ????????

Doubt very much I'll be there this year ..and anyway does the change of title mean it's a London comp rather than a national comp now :what:

Scot
8th-February-2005, 06:47 PM
Dear Dave

1. The judging method is top secret - we don't know how the positions are calculated which makes it quite difficult to work out what the judges are looking for and how that influences our scores. Will the judging method be available to competitors?


Well Andy I cannot speak for the rest of your message. However having judged for Ceroc in the past I actually thought it was quite fair and balanced. Quite a lot of detail designed to eliminate particular bias or preferences for certain styles of dance. From what I remember there were 4 or 5 criteria though they may have changed: they were musical interpretation, dress, moves, style and space awareness though I could be mistaken about that last one. In actual fact, and we are going back 4 years, there were different criteria for different categories. However my general impression was that a lot of thought had gone into ensuring that judging was as fair as possible.

PS Come up to the Scottish Comp 3rd Sept and I will leave a bottle of wine at the door for you :cheers:

Andreas
8th-February-2005, 07:39 PM
it looks like this clashes with my trip to the Melbourne Ceroc champs :(

RobC
8th-February-2005, 10:32 PM
We return to the historic Hammersith Palais .........
Oh dear...... :(

Will Rob Coward be pursuaded to come?
Um, anyone need a teacher to cover for all the 'judges' that will be at Hammersmith ?

having judged for Ceroc in the past I actually thought it was quite fair and balanced. Quite a lot of detail designed to eliminate particular bias or preferences for certain styles of dance.
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how much thought or detail goes into a judging scheme if it is kept secret and the competitors don't know the mechanics by which they are being judged. As long as judging criteria and the actual judges marks are kept secret, there will always be claims of unfair judging, marking errors, fixed results etc.

To quote Andy's story of a competitor having spoken to individual judges and then find they are not called through to the next round, this may just be a simple case of misunderstanding, either from the judge not understanding the marking mechanism, or from the competitor reading something into what the judges said, however the only way for this to be completely avoided is for the marking scheme and all guidance given to the judges being made publically available to all who want it, AND for the judges marks and any workings from the scruntineer to be published after the competition.

Andy McGregor
9th-February-2005, 04:25 AM
To quote Andy's story of a competitor having spoken to individual judges and then find they are not called through to the next round, this may just be a simple case of misunderstanding, either from the judge not understanding the marking mechanism, or from the competitor reading something into what the judges said,

It might have been one of those things listed by RobC. What it was is a follows. I saw one of the actual judges sheets, that judge had marked us to be promoted to the next round - the computer that was used to calculate the marks had no record of the judges awarding us any marks :tears:


however the only way for this to be completely avoided is for the marking scheme and all guidance given to the judges being made publically available to all who want it, AND for the judges marks and any workings from the scruntineer to be published after the competition.

What's the big secret and what have Ceroc got to hide? If they had nothing to hide they would be open an transparent about the judging method and the marks given by the judges.

As RobC and I will be available on the 1st May maybe we should have a party for our new organisation "Dancers for Tranparency in Judging". Anyone fancy coming?

Andy McGregor
9th-February-2005, 04:28 AM
Well Andy I cannot speak for the rest of your message. However having judged for Ceroc in the past I actually thought it was quite fair and balanced.
And how would you feel if your judging was ignored? That's what happened to at least 2 judges scores at the Ceroc champs last year. I expect it was a one-off mistake. But how will we ever know as we're not allowed to see anything of the judging, scores, method used, etc.

Scot
9th-February-2005, 11:02 AM
And how would you feel if your judging was ignored? That's what happened to at least 2 judges scores at the Ceroc champs last year. I expect it was a one-off mistake. But how will we ever know as we're not allowed to see anything of the judging, scores, method used, etc.

Out of intrest do other Comps do this eg Blackpool etc ie Let you see all the criteria and the information given to the Judges.

I do not go to comps a lot so I do not know.

Sparkles
9th-February-2005, 11:08 AM
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how much thought or detail goes into a judging scheme if it is kept secret and the competitors don't know the mechanics by which they are being judged.

Before I start I want to make it clear that I think the competitors should know the criteria by which they are being judged. OK that said...

I was just wondering whether knowing the criteria would make the dancers change the way they dance? Would people just 'go for it' and dance their socks off in their own personal style, even if that meant that they weren't 'fulfilling the criteria' of the judging panel, or would people take the criteria to heart and practice with a view to fulfilling them to 'maximise' their
chances of getting through to the next round?
With no fixed 'rule book' for moves or style in MJ/Ceroc I can see it being difficult to be precise, and if you can't be precise then maybe it would be better to just go out there, give it 100% and if you don't get through, you don't get through?
I'd be interested to hear peoples' opinions on this, but please remember what I said in the beginning and don't flame me! :flower:

David Franklin
9th-February-2005, 11:33 AM
I was just wondering whether knowing the criteria would make the dancers change the way they dance?For the categories which involve a lot of specialised practice (team, spotlight, aerials, probably open), I'm sure it would. It makes a big difference where the emphasis is between "performance" v.s. "technique", for example; you know what some people say about "flashy, crowd pleasing tricks"?

maybe it would be better to just go out there, give it 100% and if you don't get through, you don't get through?

"Of course, you can dance any steps you like... it doesn't mean you'll win ... win ... win"
Dave (sorry, come over all Strictly Ballroom... :blush: )

Ste
9th-February-2005, 01:57 PM
One thing I was concerned about at a previous Cerocchamps was the quality of the lighting. One year ( possibly last year..eek I can't remember ) I bumped my head against what appeared to be an iron staircase. I just didn't see it's shape correctly.

I also met a young lady who bumped her head ( possibly at the same spot?) which made her very, very ill.

I am pretty sure that had anyone been injured, this would have been actionable for damages.

In the past I have sued a major supermarket because my client slipped on a wet patch and I have sued a London council for the injuries caused to a gentleman by a raised paving stone. In both cases we did not go to trial because the defendants paid substantial sums.

Had anyone received an injury as a result of the poor lighting (like memory loss!!!), then I am sure they could have sued.

I don't want to be a troublemaker but I think it was right to make the comment.

Andy McGregor
9th-February-2005, 02:23 PM
I also met a young lady who bumped her head ( possibly at the same spot?) which made her very, very ill.

That was Katie from this forum (known to her friends as Kate :flower: ). She received a very nast cut on the top of her head from the underneath of those stairs. As with all cuts to the scalp it bled a lot. This was very scary and left her shocked and quite ill.

Kate is in her final year of a law degree so she's a bit busy to go for damages at the moment. But once she has her Law Degree she will be well equipped to speak with Ceroc about compensation if she decides on that course of action.

And, consider this, what damages could someone go for if they sustain the same injury in the same place in the same way this year - would the word 'negligence' be appropriate?

ElaineB
9th-February-2005, 03:10 PM
And, consider this, what damages could someone go for if they sustain the same injury in the same place in the same way this year - would the word 'negligence' be appropriate?

Did she report it? If so, it would be interesting to see what they have done about the area!


Elaine

Andy McGregor
9th-February-2005, 03:52 PM
Did she report it? If so, it would be interesting to see what they have done about the area!


Elaine

She was given first aid by the first aider on the staff (although I'm not sure if it was Ceroc or Palais staff). I guess that would generate an accident report.

So, to get back on topic. You might risk injury due to the lighting and layout of the venue, you don't know how you're being judged because it's a secret, you can't be sure if the judges scores will be taken into account on the computer, you might get your bags searched and queue for ages outside, you don't get the bottle of wine you were promised and, if you compete, you're treated like your feelings don't matter :tears:

But, if everything goes all right you will have a fab day :clap:

Who's going?

MartinHarper
9th-February-2005, 04:39 PM
One thing I was concerned about at a previous Cerocchamps was the quality of the lighting. One year ( possibly last year..eek I can't remember ) I bumped my head against what appeared to be an iron staircase. I just didn't see it's shape correctly.

So, you went onto a poorly lit dancefloor, and smacked your head into a chunk of iron that you couldn't see?

Ceroc have started teaching floorcraft then.

ericklondon
9th-February-2005, 05:16 PM
I would recommend a trip to Specssavers for some of you.... !!!
:rofl:

ericklondon
9th-February-2005, 05:18 PM
One thing I was concerned about at a previous Cerocchamps was the quality of the lighting. One year ( possibly last year..eek I can't remember ) I bumped my head against what appeared to be an iron staircase. I just didn't see it's shape correctly.

I also met a young lady who bumped her head ( possibly at the same spot?) which made her very, very ill.

I am pretty sure that had anyone been injured, this would have been actionable for damages.

In the past I have sued a major supermarket because my client slipped on a wet patch and I have sued a London council for the injuries caused to a gentleman by a raised paving stone. In both cases we did not go to trial because the defendants paid substantial sums.Had anyone received an injury as a result of the poor lighting (like memory loss!!!), then I am sure they could have sued.

I don't want to be a troublemaker but I think it was right to make the comment.


:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

No comment......

ericklondon
9th-February-2005, 05:30 PM
Kate is in her final year of a law degree so she's a bit busy to go for damages at the moment. But once she has her Law Degree she will be well equipped to speak with Ceroc about compensation if she decides on that course of action.

And, consider this, what damages could someone go for if they sustain the same injury in the same place in the same way this year - would the word 'negligence' be appropriate?

No.... she should be awarded the Darwin award for stupidity !!!
My god... some people.....

Have a nice day !!!

bigdjiver
9th-February-2005, 05:49 PM
No.... she should be awarded the Darwin award for stupidity !!!
My god... some people.....

Have a nice day !!!If that is representative of the management of the event, I think you have just talked me out of it.

Andy McGregor
9th-February-2005, 05:55 PM
No.... she should be awarded the Darwin award for stupidity !!!
My god... some people.....

Have a nice day !!!
Who is Mr London accusing of being stupid? Is it the people who walked into something painted black in a dark area or is it the person who talks of negligence for not addressing an issue identified for a companies Health and Safety statement :angry:

Annette
9th-February-2005, 06:03 PM
once would be an accident, hence accident book.
To repeat it a year later....was your words! :eek:

ericklondon
9th-February-2005, 06:05 PM
Dear Everyone,

I am really sorry for my last post and I will be looking into the lighting situation with care.

I do understand that some areas are badly lit and I can assure everyone that the problem will be resolved for this year's champs so that even the black painted staircase is visible from all angles.

Erick

Sheepman
9th-February-2005, 11:26 PM
I was just wondering whether knowing the criteria would make the dancers change the way they dance?
In my case the answer is yes, which was apparent in 2 competitions that Joy and I did almost back to back. Britroc, followed by the heat of Jivemasters. Our preparation had been for Jivemasters, and was about doing stuff we thought the public (voters) would like, which went pretty well (so well that I have more news on this to report next Monday...) For Britroc we did quite well, but not as well as we hoped, but either I was cr@p or the stuff we were doing just wasn't what the judges were looking for. We certainly hadn't focused on that competitioin while we were practicing.

Question. Is it likely that independent judges, say from the ballroom, or latin, world, will be looking for different things, even though they have the same criteria? If so, then we need to know who the judges are, as well.

Greg

PS Now where's my blowtorch gone :wink:

RobC
10th-February-2005, 12:06 AM
I was just wondering whether knowing the criteria would make the dancers change the way they dance?
Coming from a Ballroom competition background, knowing how I was being judged, when I entered my first LeJive Competition I went out of my way to go to other LeJive venues, got to know Robert Austin and Claire Hillier and their style of dancing, and adjusted my style of dancing to how I felt I would best benefit in the competition. My first competition I came 4th in the Intermediates and won Dance with a Stranger (beating Sherif in a 2-couple dance off :clap: ). Since then I did consistently well (although not placed top 3) in subsequent LeJive comps.

The first Ceroc competition I entered I was knocked out in the first heat :confused:
(but that was back in the days of heavy dance pollitics at the height of the Ceroc / LeJive bitterness - some say I was lucky to even make it though the door ......)

Banana Man
10th-February-2005, 12:22 AM
The first Ceroc competition I entered I was knocked out in the first heat :confused:
but that was back in the days of heavy dance pollitics at the height of the Ceroc / LeJive bitterness - some say I was lucky to even make it though the door ......)

:really: and have things changed since then?

RobC
10th-February-2005, 12:37 AM
:really: and have things changed since then?
Ummm, well, I'm now a non-CTA teacher teaching at several different Ceroc venues across Surrey / Hampshire ..... I'd say somethings changed :wink:

Andy McGregor
10th-February-2005, 02:11 AM
- some say I was lucky to even make it though the door ......)
Those doors to competition venues have never opened very wide for the competitors of the organisers :tears:

And RobC is a very wide competitor :innocent:

Daisy
14th-February-2005, 12:57 AM
Had anyone received an injury as a result of the poor lighting (like memory loss!!!), then I am sure they could have sued.

I don't want to be a troublemaker but I think it was right to make the comment.

Last year my husband Ray slipped on the same dimly lit staircase and fell heavily against the metal railings, resulting in cracked ribs! In hind sight it was silly not to report it at the time but sometimes you just get the feeling that these things fall on deaf ears, especially when dancers have highlighted this lighting problem in previous years and nothing has been done about it. Same story with the disgusting loos, the nasty changing facilities and and and and and..................

:sad:

Andy McGregor
14th-February-2005, 10:38 AM
Same story with the disgusting loos, the nasty changing facilities and and and and and..................

:sad:

Anyone fancy a nice, well lit tea dance on Sunday 1st May? I wonder if Kent House is available? It's in Hammersmith and we could have a first-aider available to treat all the people injured at the Palais.

And, to get back on topic. I expect the Palais will be a sell out, just like last year. This gives the organisers no incentive to change what they do.

Ste
14th-February-2005, 02:45 PM
One thing I was concerned about in 2003 was that a friend of mine was competing in a heat and had trouble getting ready for a cabaret.

I am wondering whether thought has been given to avoiding this scenario by keeping down the number of changes between types of competition. You need breaks between changes in type of comp but not between changes of heats ( say Heats 2a to 2b).

THerefore if you want to interlard say intermediate heats by cabarets then that could cause changing problems ( unless you built in 10 minute breaks ) whereas keeping heats together in the same class would not require those breaks because people do not compete in adjacent heats for the same level of competition.

Obviously you can't eradicate the problem totally, but it would be interesting to see if this has been taken into consideration. Do a lot of people that do caberets subsequently compete also in intermediate?

RobC
14th-February-2005, 03:05 PM
Anyone fancy a nice, well lit tea dance on Sunday 1st May? I wonder if Kent House is available? It's in Hammersmith and we could have a first-aider available to treat all the people injured at the Palais.

And, to get back on topic. I expect the Palais will be a sell out, just like last year. This gives the organisers no incentive to change what they do.
Perhaps someone should persuade Katie to put on an event at Camber on the same weekend ....... then Franco would be obliged to put on a competing event just up the road in Hastings ....... and may be the Palais won't sell out if people are offered a choice of quality over an event where the organisers are only in it for the money :devil:
Hang on a moment, perhaps all 3 are in that last category - better go to Blackpool instead :clap:

Andy McGregor
14th-February-2005, 07:59 PM
Dear Everyone,

I am really sorry for my last post and I will be looking into the lighting situation with care.

I do understand that some areas are badly lit and I can assure everyone that the problem will be resolved for this year's champs so that even the black painted staircase is visible from all angles.

Erick

Thanks Erick I'm sure that decent lighting will reduce the number of injuries. Now that we've got that sorted, how about the other issues. Here's a precis;

1. Top secret scoring method.
2. Top secret scores.
3. Innaccurate entry of competitors scores onto the computer.
4. Lack of independent scrutiny of scores/calculations.
5. Failure to treat competitors like human beings with feelings.
6. List of promoted competitors placed in the narrowest part of the venue causing huge congestion.
7. Searching of bags and long queues.
8. Very crowded dance floor in freestyle.
9. Dirty/tired toilets.
10. And where's my bottle of "Old Git" wine?

I would normally charge a business a fortune to come up with a list of ways they could improve. And I'm giving this to you for free :whistle:

If you can't work out the cure for yourselves I might be available for a modest fee :whistle:

Will
15th-February-2005, 01:48 AM
Just want to say that I find this thread quite sad. It's the same tired old thread that comes up every year around this time. I'm all for constructive criticism, but alot of what is in here is more about wanting the Ceroc Champs to just fail and fold. I think this attitude is a shame, as well as quite selfish. I'm glad it the Ceroc Champs sell out every year, and the fact that it is always so popular doesn't surprise me at all.

The Ceroc Champs isn't the perfect event, but if I could only go out dancing once every year, the Ceroc Champs is still where I'd go. Year after year it has the strongest line up of any ceroc/mj competition anywhere in the UK without a shadow of a a doubt, (and in my opinion it has the most electric atmosphere also). (and I'm not saying this to drag Blackpool or Britroc down, they are both great events in their own right too).

I think if people could be a bit more balanced, then their complaints may actually carry more weight.

Andy McGregor
15th-February-2005, 02:52 AM
Just want to say that I find this thread quite sad. It's the same tired old thread that comes up every year around this time. :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Andy McGregor
15th-February-2005, 03:03 AM
I think if people could be a bit more balanced, then their complaints may actually carry more weight.
Balance is a difficult thing when you've just had your scalp split by the protruding bolts of the underneath of a staircase which was so dark you couldn't see. And balance is difficult at 4am after a tiring day at a dance comp and you're still in A&E waiting for your young friend to be seen by a doctor because of an injury she received due to the badly lit area of a dance comp venue.

Unless we point out these problems they will be repeated year after year.

However, I think Will is right. I will not be commenting further about the failure of Ceroc in Hammersmith. I've said my bit which Ceroc must have read. The have not defended their position so they must be happy to provide the same poor level of service they have done so far - this falls far short of the level I feel is right or safe so I have no intention of going to their competition. And as I have no intention of going I have no further interest in making suggestions to them about improving their product :angry:

ericklondon
15th-February-2005, 12:54 PM
Dear Andy,

All your comments regarding the champs have been passed on to the relevant authority. Please note that all the comments regarding the champs are taken VERY seriously.

As for your missing " Old Git " Wine bottle, I thought you might be making your own by now....
:rofl:

Erick

Dan Hudson
15th-February-2005, 01:12 PM
Dear Andy,

All your comments regarding the champs have been passed on to the relevant authority. Please note that all the comments regarding the champs are taken VERY seriously.



Erick

:yeah: I can vouch for that... they have listened...the champs will indeed this year be totally NON SMOKING!! Hows about that then :clap: :clap: :cheers:

Andy McGregor
15th-February-2005, 01:13 PM
Of course you can choose to ignore my comments or say something bland like 'they have been taken on board by management'. And I'm sure your event will continue to be a sell-out without my support. But, wouldn't it be nice if it was even better? And that is what I'm suggesting :flower:


Dear Andy,

All your comments regarding the champs have been passed on to the relevant authority. Please note that all the comments regarding the champs are taken VERY seriously. :whistle:


As for your missing " Old Git " Wine bottle, I thought you might be making your own by now....
:rofl:

Erick
It sounds like I'll need to.

Andy McGregor
15th-February-2005, 01:26 PM
:yeah: I can vouch for that... they have listened...the champs will indeed this year be totally NON SMOKING!! Hows about that then :clap: :clap: :cheers:
No change there. Last year's event was non-smoking. The non-smoking rule was mentioned just once during the day. But it didn't stop people smoking and nobody did anything to actively enforce the non-smoking rule - such as speaking to people who where actively smoking in the venue :angry:

Why should we believe this year will be any different?

p.s. If you promote a venue as non-smoking and then fail to enforce your non-smoking rule you are in breach of contract. That means that people can ask to be repaid their entry money plus any other damages related to that entry - I would say that includes all the time spent rehearsing, buying costumes, etc, etc.

El Salsero Gringo
15th-February-2005, 01:34 PM
p.s. If you promote a venue as non-smoking and then fail to enforce your non-smoking rule you are in breach of contract. That means that people can ask to be repaid their entry money plus any other damages related to that entry - I would say that includes all the time spent rehearsing, buying costumes, etc, etc.

Erick and Dan's replies deserve a little more courtesy from you Andy. You diminish yourself with the tone of your reply.

Chef
15th-February-2005, 02:20 PM
Erick and Dan's replies deserve a little more courtesy from you Andy. You diminish yourself with the tone of your reply.

I don't see anything wrong with Andys tone. It is the tone of someone that has placed a lot of time, money and effort into preparing for the championships (as we all do) in the past and the event has failed him in some serious ways (and Kate in a way for which they could have ended up in court for). It is the tone of someone that is extremely disappointed by the lack of seriousness that these points have been addressed with.

If the venue staff find it so hard (or are unwilling to) enforce the no smoking rule then the door staff can take cigarettes off of people at the door with the same zeal that water and food are removed from bags.

The organisers CAN take these issues seriously if they want. Or they could find a court forcing them to take them seriously at some later stage. I am sure these messages on the forum could be used in evidence at some later stage.

Happy Dancing

Andy McGregor
15th-February-2005, 02:21 PM
Erick and Dan's replies deserve a little more courtesy from you Andy. You diminish yourself with the tone of your reply.Thank you for pointing this out El Gringo. My tone is a little abrupt and I apologise for this. My problem is that I'd love to go to the London Ceroc Champs but last year was so bad with all the things I've listed including two of my friends being quite badly injured due to poor lighting :tears: My comments have been in an attempt to get Ceroc to improve this event so I will feel that I can go without risking injury and with a good chance of the competition being run in a demonstrably fair and thoughtful manner.

On the subject of smoking, my comments would be unjustified had the venue permitted smoking last year and banned it this year. But that is not the case. Ceroc banned smoking at the Ceroc Champs last year and certain parts of the venue were very smoky - to say that they are banning it this year as if there was some kind of change is misleading. The change needs to be in the promotion of non-smoking: the venue being non-smoking is no change whatsoever.

And for Erick to say "comments regarding the champs are taken VERY seriously" isn't really saying anything at all about any changes to the way the competition is run. My 'discourtesy' was designed to smoke :sick: out something a bit less vague and more constructive than 'taken VERY seriously'.

And, why pick on me? :tears: If you want to comment about the 'tone' of a post, take a look at Erick's initial response to the comments about poor lighting. He apologised later, but, as has been said before rudeness+apology=/=not having been rude.

El Salsero Gringo
15th-February-2005, 02:47 PM
This is a very interesting thread.

I've never been to the Champs, nor do I plan to. I find the idea of a dance competition where the competitors have food and water confiscated from them on entry to be akin to racketeering. (We've had the discussion about taking water to venues in another thread and I made my comments there plainly, too, so nothing further to say on the subject.)

Problems with the lighting obviously need to be addressed; it obviously isn't acceptable to have dangerous areas in public venues. I hope that something is done about it for this year - along with all the other problems that you've hilighted. And, as you've already pointed out Ceroc Enterprises should be grateful for the feedback that they get - without expensive surveys or "outreach programmes" - on this forum.

I suspect though that issuing threats of lawsuits - which, injuries aside, have very little chance of even reaching a judge let alone meriting an award for damages - is going to do little to encourage Ceroc Enterprises to enter any kind of debate. I think it depends on whether you think that approach is most likely to achieve results. They have few enough staff to achieve what they already do and precious little spare time to read threads like this, despite our preconceptions of the great Ceroc Empire.

At this point, if I write any more po-faced prose I am going to disappear up my own orifice - so enough.

Dan Hudson
15th-February-2005, 02:55 PM
I think it is safe to say that your points Andy are being taken seriously with the organisers of this event.

Every year, points are taken on board and things improved. :D I think we can all agree that last year WAS a great improvement on the previous year.

The event can only continue to improve and I know that the lighting issue is being looked into.

I am sure this years event will be an improvement on last years.... :clap:

The music will definately be good :whistle: :whistle:

I have copied and pasted your list on to an email to the organisers and I am sure someone will post a response soon enough.

There are always problems etc at events... last year at blackpool for instance I fell down the stairs and it bloody hurt :angry: Also I thought the changing facilites for the guys were poor. I emailed the organisers and can only hope that they CAN change things for this year. Sadly coz Mr Brown has tax isues with me I shall not be there...

I will however be at the london champs...

Dan :cheers:

RobC
15th-February-2005, 03:09 PM
Just want to say that I find this thread quite sad. It's the same tired old thread that comes up every year around this time. I'm all for constructive criticism, but alot of what is in here is more about wanting the Ceroc Champs to just fail and fold.
It's not the thread that I find sad, but the lack of change year after year, which only leads to the same things being said year after year.

The reason people like Andy and myself are so vocal about the subject is not because we want to see the Champs fail, but rather we want to see it succeed and become more than it currently is.

I have no doubt that the Champs will continue to sell out because [major assumption mode on] I'm sure that most the people who attend don't know any better, either because they are not a competitor and / or they have never attended any other competition, Modern Jive or otherwise. [/major assumption mode off] Given that 95% of attendees don't know any better (and I don't include anyone on this forum in that 95%) it is down to the people who do know how differently things could be done to speak up and give accurate feedback on how an event was run, or suggestions on how things could be done better next time.

Nothing I have read in this thread or others falls anywhere outside of this accurate feedback or constructive suggestions.

If the organisers pass comments "on to the relevant authority" and subsequently decide to ignore them, changing nothing and leaving their 'product' as it has always been, then that is their right. But it is also our right give them the same comments year after year, either through private channels, or on an open public forum such as this one where we know the various powers that be lurk and read posts.


Every year, points are taken on board and things improved. I think we can all agree that last year WAS a great improvement on the previous year.
Speaking personally, I had a very disappointing time at the Champs 2 years ago and decided not to attend last year, so I can't judge for myself how much of an improvement was made. From the reports I heard after the event last year though, clearly not everyone agreed it was a 'great improvement'. I will be staying away again this year. :tears:

ericklondon
15th-February-2005, 03:18 PM
Dear All,

I would like to point out that my only responsibilty at the Champs is the Music and the lighting, and I've already given my reply regarding the lighting situation.

As regards, to my comment " passing your comments to the relevant authority" means that this has been noted and I have spoken to Dave about this, and a reply from will be made available for you to read in the very near future.

Erick

David Franklin
15th-February-2005, 03:21 PM
I think it is safe to say that your points Andy are being taken seriously with the organisers of this event. The thing is, we've all heard this before, and very little seems to change.

I think we can all agree that last year WAS a great improvement on the previous year. Let's have a look at the post competition thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2857) last year:


The dancing was the best I've seen at a competition but it was the worst organised Ceroc Championships I've ever been to.
And secondly, they allowed smoking absolutely everywhere in the building. It's always been a nightclub but there's never been a smoking problem there before

The time it took to post up the results was ludicrous. Had to wait 1 hour and 20 minutes for the results of the 1st round of the Open. And then 2 hours for the Open semi-final results!! ... there was no opportunity to relax or go out and dance, while waiting for the results. Which did really spoil the day for me.

The down side of the competition seemed to be the organisation and I agree with Tramp's and Andy's comments there.

I had earplugs in for the whole day except when we were actually dancing

Like many others, I thought the music was too loud and after nearly eight hours in the venue, my ears were ringing and my head was splitting. TwK and I had to go for a stroll outside for an hour and take some nurofen just to get through the day. Mind you, all that shouting we were doing may have had something to do with it too!

I also thought the lighting was pretty bad. It improved dramatically mid-afternoon, but the first few showcases seemed to be performed in near darkness. I felt terrible for some of the competitors whose hard work got lost in the gloom. I just hope the judges saw more than I did!

It wasn't just me that commented on how filthy and disgusting the place is, even worse than last year! Missy D & I looked for a quiet spot to go through some stuff, we found one, carpet that squelched with beer - that really helped the dance shoes!
The lighting in the place is hopeless... The congestion in the place is dreadful
I could go on, there are (many) pages more! I don't want to be really negative - I know that the Ceroc team work really hard on the event, and it must feel like it's not appreciated. But given that list of quotes, how you can say comments are taken seriously and then claim "everyone agrees last year was a big improvement" is beyond me...

Dave

P.S. And I simply can't believe no-one's got their act together and got Andy his prize. It's not a big deal, but if you can't even get the little things right...

Andy McGregor
15th-February-2005, 03:27 PM
P.S. And I simply can't believe no-one's got their act together and got Andy his prize. It's not a big deal, but if you can't even get the little things right...
I like to think it's because they thought I was too young to be in the Old Gits category :wink:

p.s. I think David Franklin's post was brilliant and must have taken ages. He deserves to be repped into orbit :flower:

ericklondon
15th-February-2005, 03:32 PM
Andy,

I still have a couple of bottles in my garage if you like.... ?
Please advise what you would like me to want to do with them... because I certainly do have a very good idea.... !! :wink:

Erick
:nice:

Andy McGregor
15th-February-2005, 03:43 PM
Andy,

I still have a couple of bottles in my garage if you like.... ?
Please advise what you would like me to want to do with them... because I certainly do have a very good idea.... !! :wink:

Erick
:nice:
I think I can guess what Erick's 'very good idea' is. It would certainly get Mike Ellard's attention if you did that to him :devil:

But it would work just as well with an empty bottle so I think we should drink the contents first - well you wouldn't want to drink the wine afterwards :sick:

stewart38
15th-February-2005, 04:22 PM
Just want to say that I find this thread quite sad. It's the same tired old thread that comes up every year around this time. I'm all for constructive criticism, but alot of what is in here is more about wanting the Ceroc Champs to just fail and fold. I think this attitude is a shame, as well as quite selfish. I'm glad it the Ceroc Champs sell out every year, and the fact that it is always so popular doesn't surprise me at all.

The Ceroc Champs isn't the perfect event, but if I could only go out dancing once every year, the Ceroc Champs is still where I'd go. Year after year it has the strongest line up of any ceroc/mj competition anywhere in the UK without a shadow of a a doubt, (and in my opinion it has the most electric atmosphere also). (and I'm not saying this to drag Blackpool or Britroc down, they are both great events in their own right too).

I think if people could be a bit more balanced, then their complaints may actually carry more weight.


I find it very very sad

People who hate the venue/setup please dont go, I know a lot of people who would like to go and if it sells out they cant.

If somone hasnt been before please please try it ,even to watch + take part in free style.

I took a girl last year who was blown away by the size and atmosphere of the place she loved it. Yes the loos are not great the lighting could be better they could have more announcemnets re non smoking (there was at least 2)

Some people seem to hate the place/concept so why go ? IT isnt that bad.

Andy McGregor
15th-February-2005, 04:30 PM
Some people seem to hate the place/concept so why go ? IT isn't that bad.But it could be great. And that's what we're talking about.


I took a girl last year who was blown away by the size and atmosphere of the place she loved it. Just think how stewart38 would feel and what he'd be saying now if he had to take that girl to A&E with a nasty cut in her scalp and subsequently heard that another of his friends had cracked a rib on the stairs :tears:

RobC
15th-February-2005, 04:51 PM
I took a girl last year who was blown away by the size and atmosphere of the place she loved it.
One of my 95% then :whistle:

Some people seem to hate the place/concept so why go ? IT isnt that bad.
As in my previous post:
1. I don't Hate the Palais
2. I don't Hate the Champs
3. I don't Hate Ceroc - I do teach for 2 different franchisees afterall :wink:

What I do get fed up with and frustrated by (and I'll freely admit that this was exactly the same under LeJive when they ran competitions at the Palais) is all the excuses and lack of any noticable action from the organisers to improve what could be an excellant event for people to look forward to with excitement and enthusiasm.

I've lost track of the number of times I have heard the following (from both LeJive and Ceroc):

"We don't control the bouncers - they belong to the venue."
"The venue is under new management, things will be better this year."
"It is the venue's policy to not left food and drink into the venue."
"The bar prices are beyond our control."
"We have been assured that the venue will be cleaner this year."
"We were told that water would be available."
"We have asked the venue to provide healthy food."

The area that always seems to leave room for improvement is the Competition Organiser's management of their relationship with the venue managment and staff. For example, if the competition organisers acknowledged and got the venue management to acknowledge that a dance competition is an athletic sporting event and not a nightclub, then may be the venue management would recognise the need for healthy, energy foods and drink to be available at a reasonable cost, or to allow the competitiors to bring in their own sustainance. To have one bar in the venue charging people for a bottle of water while another is giving out free water in jugs is plain unacceptable.

stewart38
15th-February-2005, 05:24 PM
But it could be great. And that's what we're talking about.

Just think how stewart38 would feel and what he'd be saying now if he had to take that girl to A&E with a nasty cut in her scalp and subsequently heard that another of his friends had cracked a rib on the stairs :tears:


Well if i got injured and it was due to poor lighting, id sue ceroc whos Insurers would proabaly look to subrogate the claim back to the owners of the premises.

There were at least two serious ankle injuries at Camber due to flooring, its up to individuals.

If feel sorry for the ceroc organisers that must put hours and hours into this event to get such negative rep.

Andy McGregor
15th-February-2005, 05:47 PM
If feel sorry for the ceroc organisers that must put hours and hours into this event to get such negative rep.
Ahh, that's where we differ. I see the comments made as suggestions for improvements. To use the Camber example, two people broke their ankles on the flooring. Franco identified the problem and came up with a solution - and I say well done Franco :clap:

However, some problems aren't as easy to spot as a dancer being carried out of your venue on a stretcher. So what we've done here is report those problems in the hope that a solution can be found. So far the results have been positive. Erick has promised to sort out the lighting*. So well done Erick :clap:

*And between Erick and myself we've proposed a method of using my bottle of Old Git wine to get Mr Ellard's attention :devil:

ericklondon
15th-February-2005, 05:51 PM
*And between Erick and myself we've proposed a method of using my bottle of Old Git wine to get Mr Ellard's attention :devil:

You suggested to use your unclaimed bottles of wine on Mike, not me...
I thought I would just point that one out...
:wink:

Erick

bradders
17th-February-2005, 10:18 PM
Champs Stuff

Sorry for the delay in responding to the posts here but I don't get on the forum much. I have tried to answer all the points raised apologise right now for the length of this post

Regarding Judging Method.
The judging sheets have 3 sections (first choices, second choices and third choices). The competitors are judged according to the criteria listed under Competition Rules in each Category on the cerocchamps website. Each category has a list of the criteria that points will be awarded for in that particular category. Using those criteria the judges pick their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices in each heat. These marks are computed and if we get enough people to go through to the next round from the first choices then we don’t have to look at the second or third choices but they are there reflecting the judges choice should they be needed. So the competitors who go through from the heats are the ones who the judges think are the best. Makes sense eh?

Andy, as a fellow Competition Organiser, and someone who runs a small modern jive business on the model of Ceroc, if you want to call the office and speak to Mike he will gladly appraise you of the judging method we employ at the Champs.

Andy and the Lucky Dip
I recall very clearly last year you remonstrating at the Champs that you didn’t get through in the Lucky Dip, I understand that Mike Ellard met with you in the computer room and went through the score sheets to check to see if there had been an error. Mike confirmed to you that there hadn’t and that you didn’t get enough marks to go through.
The fact is that just because one judge confirmed that you had a mark doesn’t mean anything, it’s about how many marks you get and in what section (I.e. 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice).
It is also my understanding that you complained again later in the day and the score sheets were checked a second time – this means that in effect your score sheets were checked 3 times in total – the fact is there was no mistake, you simply didn’t get enough marks in the right sections to go through.

Posting of quarter final results
Last year we tried a method used in the Ballroom Competition World of keeping every body in suspense before announcing the qualifiers. The idea is that it increases the level of anticipation and expectation amongst the competitors and generally makes the competition more 'exciting'. From feedback received the audience certainly enjoyed this new feature however the competitors don't like the anticipation. This is a spectator event, nonetheless we are aware of the pressure on the entrants and this will be reviewed this year.

Posting of Results
The results have been posted in the same place for the last 5 years. Nobody has actually complained about the position before. It is opposite the bar on the first floor balcony behind lighting control box. This area is quite wide and we bring in extra lighting to illuminate the area. The only congestion may be getting to that area along the balcony, although it is accessed from both sides. Not sure what the confusion was as not specified. I will give it some thought and consider repositioning. The only place that comes to mind at this point in time is on the first floor to the right of the stage area (if we can stop people camping there...and when we do we are bound to have more complaints!!).

Lighting under staircases.
I don't know exactly which staircase you are referring to as there are a couple. I will make sure that I inspect them all and I will get some of that foam pipe insulation and cover any parts that I feel are potentially dangerous. I spoke to the venue about this and they just said they have 3000 people in there every weekend and never have a problem (probably cuz they are all ****ed!!).
As far as putting lighting under the stairs I'm not sure if this is possible or practical.
As far as lighting goes generally even with the house lights on its dark in there. It is a night club and that is the ambience of the venue and as such the event. It is what it is and it is dark.
We did improve lighting in the changing rooms for last years event after some feedback and I will definitely look into the whole lighting issue in respect of this event but it will never be like a town hall in there as it is not a town hall.

Bag Searches.
The bags were not searched for food last year. We ran the concession so we said food was allowed in and food was allowed in. The venue will not allow any drinks to be brought into the venue as they run the bars. That is their rule and not negotiable. If the venue security find drink in a bag they will confiscate it.
Now back to bag searches. The bags are search by the venue security as that is what they do. They are complying with Police Directives which are issued based on Home Office advice. The venue is next to a very large Police Station. The venue have an obligation to ensure that no weapons, or drugs are bought on to the premises. This is of particular significance in this day and age. They take very seriously the possibility of terrorist activity in Central London. That is why they search bags. This is a rule of the venue and not negotiable.
Believe me I have tried to tell them that dancers are not terrorists, do not carry weapons or take drugs but they don't care who we are, they search bags and anything else they want to, when they want to, and that is it.
In fact in London every Central London bar and nightclub have been told to tighten up on security by the police. Having your bags searched at the airport is a nuisance, but Ceroc are not able to do anything about the world we live in....apart from making it a happier place by introducing more people to the joys of modern jive than any other organisation on the planet.

Queuing in the rain.
It is not practical from an operational point of view to let anyone in before 10.30am as we are not allowed in to set up until 8am and so it is real rush to get it all done. We are trying to make the most of the day and so we want to start the competition as soon as. People are keen to come in and get their favourite places to sit or whatever so there is always a queue before the doors open. That happened even when we opened at midday.
I must say it has never been raining on the day of the Champs. Every year I step outside at 10am and think 'what a great day for mountain biking!!'. No doubt it will rain this year now you have brought it up....so it will be your fault!!
Comment regarding bag searches see above........

Will Rob Coward come....?
That is up to Rob Coward!!

'Old Git' Wine
It was announced last year by Linda Barker after the prize giving that any 'Old Gits' wanting a bottle of wine please come and take one. Many did.....take more than one!! You obviously did not hear the announcement. Many did. Most of it went. I still have a case in my garage. Let me know when you are coming to one of my venues and I will bring one down for you.

Competitors being treated shabbily
I have dealt with all of the comments re-raised in your last paragraph.
We value all our customers, our members are our business and we truly value them all.
At the Champs we want to provide a great day that every body enjoys so they will come back next year and also attend other Ceroc events. We constantly endeavour to improve our product in as many ways as possible.

Food
What can I say? We did it ourselves last year. Offered healthy light options, loads of fruit etc etc and the favourite was sausages in a roll with onions and ketchup. Year before favourite..... burgers in bap with chips. I'm stumped with this one. Help!!

Final Comment
There will always be ways that we can improve the event, and we will continue to make improvements based on feedback from attendees and our own ideas. We have already augmented a number of changes that have made the event better and will continue to do so.
The Palais is not the absolute ideal Central London venue forthis event but it is the closest we have found. We are not in the market at £25 per ticket for holding an event in the Royal Albert Hall, Earls Court, or The Grosvenor Ballroom (all of which I have visited and discounted). If anybody knows of a possible alternative venue please email me the details at david@ceroclondon.com


Andy, you tend to paint a picture in the way you write you comments that Ceroc is like an ivory tower, closed and inward looking, like some huge corporation untouched by personal contact and basically non caring.
I must say that I personally resent that.
I organise the Champs by myself, and have done so for the last 4 years, Christine takes and administers the bookings. I also run the Central London business for Ceroc and can be found at my venues almost every night. My phone numbers and email address are on almost every piece of paper we give out and on our websites. If some one wants to talk to me about anything they have complete and open access and can do so very easily.
We provide a great product for our thousands of members, a product that has been copied and emulated right across the country and across the world. The people involved in Ceroc are dedicated and passionate about, and proud of our business.
Just consider this next time your fingers are quivering over your keyboard.

Andy, you are involved in the modern jive business, I repeat business, up to your back teeth. I appreciate positive feedback and I respect open discussion without hidden agenda and I hope that exactly that is what is going on here!

Moving on
I have now read the other posts on this thread.
RobC I find your comments totally unbalance. You have not been to the event for years by your own admission and quite frankly you have no understanding of how it all works.
In reply to your list of suggestions in your post regarding the Champs
1) Manage the venue owners!!!!!!!!!!! Do you understand what a high profile venue the Palais is!!
2) It IS a night club.
3) The venue owners DON'T CARE if you are Denise Lewis you still get your bag searched.
4) The bouncers do what the venue tell them to do, the venue do what the police tell them to do, the police do what the home office tell them to do....vote for the green party! (I think I'm losing it!!)
5) The venue have NEVER run the food concession.
6) There has ALWAYS been a well balanced healthy menu at the Champs (I posted the menu last year...it was well balanced and healthy!).
Fact is the dancers choose to eat burgers and chips or sausage in a roll or crisps instead of the healthy light options.
Everybody has the option of going out and buying food...Sainsbury's/Tescos is 5 mins away plus lots of cafes and restaurants and shops on King Street!!
7) WE HAVE controlled the bar prices for 5 years...they are a lot cheaper at our event than normal night club prices.
8) IT IS the venues policy not to let drink in.
9) We did NOT stop people bringing food in last year.
10) Water IS available...just ask for it if it is not on the bar.
11) Choice...buy bottled or drink tap water what is wrong with that??
12) Event organisers who like to make a profit....God forbid??
(ps. ask your friends in Blackpool how much money they make if you think they are doing it for love?? They make a lot more that we do possiblybecause they pay less than a third we do for the venue hire).

If your comments were the slightest bit balanced people may take them on board, but honestly, it's as if Ceroc abandoned you as a child and you feel compelled to have a go at any given opportunity!!

Last Comment
Andy, we all know you are a committed anti smoking campaigner and I take on board your comments about smoking at the Palais. I too hate smoking with a vengeance and avoid smoky places. I am offering you now the job of being our 'anti-smoking enforcer' at the Champs this year. Staff t shirt, pay-packet and water pistol if you want the job (you get in free too and can have a free healthy option, for the athletes like RobC, lunch!!)

...and Finally!
To anyone that has read this post all the way through may I thank you for your interest and tenacity.

Last years Champs was a sell out with just over 1000 people in attendance. After the event we received scores of call, emails and letters saying what a truly great event it was. We also received positive feedback and opinion on certain things which we take into account when organising the next years event, and the comments and suggestions in posts on this forum will also be taken into account.

Interestingly, the only stinging criticism, where the event is put down and attacked, often with untruths and distortions (that seem to become the truth because they are written) down, is on this forum.
I do realise that the purpose of a forum is to allow people to express themselves and their opinions so I am not suggesting people are wrong to do so, I'm just making the point.

I do feel that contributors to this forum should have their self interests in the modern jive business made clear and open, so that the average forum member is aware of any conflict of interest that may be involved, and may underlie any given position on any given subject.
I have suggested this to Franck for consideration and consultation and hope that it is implemented very soon.

All the very best to you all and I hope to see you all on Sunday 1st May in London.

David Bradley
Ceroc Champs Organisor and Ceroc London Manager

Banana Man
17th-February-2005, 10:54 PM
Champs Stuff

BIG SNIP

David Bradley
Ceroc Champs Organisor and Ceroc London Manager

Dave, I think (and I hope) that you've addressed all the queries in this thread, and if not, left opportunity for further discussion on a one to one basis where IMHO it should probably be.

Well done for taking the time to think about and write a good considered reply. Have some rep.

Cheers,

Eric

David Franklin
17th-February-2005, 11:05 PM
Thanks for taking the time to write that reply, David. The lack of communication from Ceroc causes a lot of the concerns about "aloofness". I'll try to reply succinctly... :grin:

Judging Method: Yes, there are criteria, but they are incredibly vague (in fairness, Britroc (via Andy) is the only comp. that is really any more specific). What does Ceroc mean by, for example, musical interpretation? Something I've heard often (not just with Ceroc!) is "If you dance with teacher X, they never seem to notice the music or hit a break. So how can they judge musical interpretation?".


Last year we tried a method used in the Ballroom Competition World of keeping every body in suspense before announcing the qualifiers. The idea is that it increases the level of anticipation and expectation amongst the competitors and generally makes the competition more 'exciting'. From feedback received the audience certainly enjoyed this new feature however the competitors don't like the anticipation. This is a spectator event, nonetheless we are aware of the pressure on the entrants and this will be reviewed this year.This, I think, speaks to the heart of the discrepancy between the feedback you get and what people post on the forum. As a spectator event, the Ceroc champs are very good indeed - but it is not nearly such a good event to compete at. No-one wants to be standing at the side waiting in vain for their name to be called out. It may be exciting for the audience, but it's hell for the competitors, and is a good example of "shabby treatment" IMHO. I'd have to say the majority of competitors I've spoken to felt things could have been a lot better.

Again, communication could help things - I think a lot of the upset was due to not knowing what was going on, or why the results were taking so long. It also probably caused a lot of the problems with people continually wanting to check for results and causing congestion. If there was a definite time, even if that is "just before the next round", that would be better than hanging around on tenderhooks.


As far as lighting goes generally even with the house lights on its dark in there. It is a night club and that is the ambience of the venue and as such the event. It is what it is and it is dark.
We did improve lighting in the changing rooms for last years event after some feedback and I will definitely look into the whole lighting issue in respect of this event but it will never be like a town hall in there as it is not a town hall.Again - I assume it's not a town hall because a town hall wouldn't be good for the spectators. It might be better for the dancers, though. It's all about balance, I know... :tears:

As far as your comments on food, bag searches, and queueing, I think you make your point well. It's particularly useful for people to know they are allowed to bring in food. Many thanks. :clap:


I do feel that contributors to this forum should have their self interests in the modern jive business made clear and open, so that the average forum member is aware of any conflict of interest that may be involved, and may underlie any given position on any given subject.
I have suggested this to Franck for consideration and consultation and hope that it is implemented very soon.Andy aside, I'm unaware of any particular axes to grind amongst the people I quoted before - indeed, one of the things that struck me was how much I would respect their opinions as experienced competitors who've been to many if not all of the various competitions.

My genuine feeling is that the organisers don't have a terribly good understanding of the competitors point of view, and certainly the competitors don't understand all the constraints you have to work under. I think if you could get together with a few of the more outspoken critics you'd actually find you have a lot in common - people write on here because they are passionate about dance, as I know you are. Together, you might get a lot more mutual understanding, and maybe some concrete suggestions for improvement. (Email is better than nothing, but sometimes face-to-face can work wonders...)

Respect for all the work you put in, and thanks again for the well-thought reply... :cheers:

Dave

Mary
18th-February-2005, 01:18 AM
Have only time for a brief(ish) reply. Thanks Bradders for the in depth reply. the Palais is not the ideal venue, but last year's event had a lot of improvements, which I for one was grateful for. I could actually see what I was I was wearing in the ladies changing area. If I wanted to be picky a portable hanging rail and mirror would be good as well.

As far as I am aware the food last year (unlike previous years) was supplied by Ceroc on a non-profitmaking basis, taking all our comments on healthy options into account. I did not find this out until after the event (I gather there was quite a lot of waste). I didn't see anything advertising the fact (I may have just not been looking in the right place), but if I had known this I would have made a point of supporting the effort. I believe it is an excellent idea, but should be shouted out a bit more.

Bag-searching etc. - not a problem last year & I was treated in a friendly and courteous manner by the door staff, and entry was swift and efficient.

Some other issues are still to be addressed IMO. The non-announcement of people thru' to the next round as in advanced - major logistical headache for competitors.

I know it sounds like lots of people are dissing the event, but mostly i think it's because people want it to be the spectacular event that should be synonymous with what one would imagine a Ceroc Champs should be, given the worldwide name that Ceroc has.

M

Andy McGregor
18th-February-2005, 02:34 AM
Bradders is a fab guy and I'm very impressed with his response to this thread. I am considering my reply very, very carefully. At the moment my gut feel is that he's not prepared to change a thing. His post seems to be telling us that last year was great - and we all know, certainly from a competitors point of veiw, that wasn't true :tears:

So, Bradders, what are the changes from last year?

Andy

p.s. That T-shirt, what will it say?

TheTramp
18th-February-2005, 03:03 AM
Posting of quarter final results
Last year we tried a method used in the Ballroom Competition World of keeping every body in suspense before announcing the qualifiers. The idea is that it increases the level of anticipation and expectation amongst the competitors and generally makes the competition more 'exciting'. From feedback received the audience certainly enjoyed this new feature however the competitors don't like the anticipation. This is a spectator event, nonetheless we are aware of the pressure on the entrants and this will be reviewed this year.

Thanks Bradders for a considered reply.

I'll take this part up, if I may, since it was something that I mentioned before.

I don't know why this would be more exciting for the spectators. I'm sure that the majority of the non-competing spectators don't know who goes through anyhow - since they probably don't go to look at the sheets of results when they are posted, and probably wouldn't be able to correlate the numbers with actual competitors anyhow. They will probably know that their friends are through, but not the rest of the competitors. And surely it's the actual dancing that provides much more excitement anyhow. And the talking about the people in the competition - who's expected to get through etc.

So, the competitors. I've never been to a ballroom competition, so I can't compare the workings of such. However, I would ask these questions:

Are there usually a number of changes of costume in a ballroom event? It's a real pain to have to go and change (especially in the Palais!) into a costume for a specific event (open, lucky dip, double trouble) only to find out that you're not needed anyhow. Definitely not competitor friendly!!

Is there such a long time between heats of specific competitions in a ballroom event? To have wait for 3 hours (approximately), on tenterhooks, not knowing if you need to conserve energy etc. from the semi-final to the final is not a pleasant experience. Given that we weren't in the final (and deservedly so), I could have been relaxing, having a few dances, enjoying the day. As it was, I was turning down dances to save some energy just in case we were in the final, re-visiting the results area to see if the results were up for 2 hours (it would have been 3 hours if we'd had to wait for the actual final to take place) last year. Again, it's not very competitor friendly.

I can't make it anyhow this year (poor student), but I really think that results should be available asap for the competitors. And when you've got 6(?) sets of results to input for 12 couples (I think that there were 2 semi-finals of 6 couples each in the Open, and 6 judges), I think about 5-10 minutes after the 2nd semi-final would be about right. Might take a little longer in earlier rounds, where there are more people, but probably not much so, since the results for the first heats can be entered while subsequent heats are taking place, if the judges sheets are collected while people are coming onto the floor.

under par
18th-February-2005, 03:19 AM
Thanks Bradders for a considered reply.



I can't make it anyhow this year (poor student), but I really think that results should be available asap for the competitors. And when you've got 6(?) sets of results to input for 12 couples (I think that there were 2 semi-finals of 6 couples each in the Open, and 6 judges), I think about 5-10 minutes after the 2nd semi-final would be about right. Might take a little longer in earlier rounds, where there are more people, but probably not much so, since the results for the first heats can be entered while subsequent heats are taking place, if the judges sheets are collected while people are coming onto the floor.

I won't be going, I have yet to make it to the Ceroc Champs due to work.
Having only ever done the Britroc comp for the first time last year where the results where published within 15 minutes of the completeion of each round, I can not claim to imagine how distressing it must be for all the competitors waiting so long to find out the results of each round.


Put them out of their misery or let them prepare for the next round ASAP.

ElaineB
18th-February-2005, 08:54 AM
Glad to see that we have a response from Bradders - thank you.

My comments relate to the scoring issue and posting of results. When I posted last year, I mentioned two issues. The first being the complete confusion in the intermediates when Simon and myself (and a number of others) were called into the wrong heat. Despite being told that we had danced very well by complete strangers (if it had been friends, then I would take it with a pinch of salt! :D ), we didn't get through to the next round. We were not off form that day, I came second in DWAS and Simon made it through to the Semis.

The second and more important being that two friends of mine checked the score board to find that they had not been put through to the next round. They decided to go for a meal. Inexplicably, their number was then put up on the board and we had to send out a search party. They literally arrived back just in time to get their shoes on and were completely unprepared.

So, I do wonder whether there was some problem with the scoring system or the way that the numbers/points were entered onto the system last year.

In any event, it is pleasing that Bradders has taken this on board. My feeling is that this event is one of the top two competitions in the UK (although I am partial to W-S-M :D ) and as such, we should be showing the quality that we have at this event.

I went to my very first Ce Roc dance the other week and was very impressed with my welcome (oooh, I have a membership car now!) and the organisation. My comment afterwards was that it was a shame that the Champs did not seem to reflect the obvious organisational and promotional qualities of Ce Roc. I sincerely hope that 2005 shows the sorts of improvements that have been asked for.

Elaine

under par
18th-February-2005, 09:06 AM
Glad to see that we have a response from Bradders - thank you.


I went to my very first Ce Roc dance the other week and was very impressed with my welcome (oooh, I have a membership car now!)
Elaine

Car! Car!

They only gave me a card you must have gone to the exclusive Ceroc venue that can afford cars for new members.

Probably given out to ensure you get there in time for the first lesson.......quite a neat idea really....don't you think? :rofl: :rofl:

Lou
18th-February-2005, 09:57 AM
I do feel that contributors to this forum should have their self interests in the modern jive business made clear and open, so that the average forum member is aware of any conflict of interest that may be involved, and may underlie any given position on any given subject.
I have suggested this to Franck for consideration and consultation and hope that it is implemented very soon.

:confused: Is there an average forum-goer who doesn't know these things, anyway? I don't think anybody hides their background on here. There's no hidden agendas - all of them are pretty obvious! :grin:

BTW, I've got a Ceroc Car sticker if that's any help, UP?

Minnie M
18th-February-2005, 10:14 AM
:yeah: I'm a bit late to add my comments to the above as most have been said - can only thank DB for a very detailed post :worthy:

ElaineB
18th-February-2005, 10:19 AM
Car! Car!

They only gave me a card you must have gone to the exclusive Ceroc venue that can afford cars for new members.

Probably given out to ensure you get there in time for the first lesson.......quite a neat idea really....don't you think? :rofl: :rofl:

Yes and it was orange and had an inbuillt dance instructor! :D


Elaine

TheTramp
18th-February-2005, 10:21 AM
Yes and it was orrange and had an inbuillt dance instruction video! :D


Elaine
Orrange!! Orrange!!

Is this the Ceroc shade of orange??

(Yeah, yeah. Correct your spelling mistake, so that my post looks strange, why don'cha!! :))

(Can I make fun of the way you've spelt inbuillt instead then???)

:hug:

MartinHarper
18th-February-2005, 10:33 AM
Is there an average forum-goer who doesn't know these things, anyway?

Most of the casual readers, I imagine. It's not wildly obvious.

ElaineB
18th-February-2005, 11:09 AM
Orrange!! Orrange!!

Is this the Ceroc shade of orange??

(Yeah, yeah. Correct your spelling mistake, so that my post looks strange, why don'cha!! :))

(Can I make fun of the way you've spelt inbuillt instead then???)

:hug:

Yup! :wink: :D


Elaine :hug:

Lou
18th-February-2005, 11:21 AM
Most of the casual readers, I imagine. It's not wildly obvious.
:rofl:

(I wish I could pos rep you again!)

under par
18th-February-2005, 11:37 AM
Yes and it was orange and had an inbuillt dance instructor! :D


Elaine

Did he have bouncey hands and did that cause any problems driving??? :whistle:

Franck
18th-February-2005, 01:29 PM
So, Bradders, what are the changes from last year?
Quite a few changes by the look of things. I thought I would list the main ones to save you the trouble.

• First, Bradders explained the judging system, not in huge details as his post was pretty long already, but he did offer to explain it fully to you should you require, all you need to do is contact Ceroc HQ.

• He also clarified the 'alleged error' you kept repeating prior to his response.

It is also my understanding that you complained again later in the day and the score sheets were checked a second time – this means that in effect your score sheets were checked 3 times in total – the fact is there was no mistake, you simply didn’t get enough marks in the right sections to go through.It is possible that the judging method isn't perfect, and indeed that mistakes will occur, but it seems to me that when it happens, you are able to challenge / check the results.

• Listening to feedback re. announcing results earlier

Posting of quarter final results
Last year we tried a method used in the Ballroom Competition World of keeping every body in suspense before announcing the qualifiers... /snip/
... we are aware of the pressure on the entrants and this will be reviewed this year.

• Taking the safety issues seriously

Lighting under staircases.
I don't know exactly which staircase you are referring to as there are a couple. I will make sure that I inspect them all and I will get some of that foam pipe insulation and cover any parts that I feel are potentially dangerous.

• Dealing with the smokers who ignored the 'NO SMOKING RULE

Last Comment
Andy, we all know you are a committed anti smoking campaigner and I take on board your comments about smoking at the Palais. I too hate smoking with a vengeance and avoid smoky places. I am offering you now the job of being our 'anti-smoking enforcer' at the Champs this year. Staff t shirt, pay-packet and water pistol if you want the job

A number of changes were implemented last year and already made the Ceroc Champs even better. It looks to me that thanks to feedback (directly and in here) more improvements are in place.
When no action was possible (eg the bag searches), the reasons and attempts were clearly explained.

Many people just do not like the Palais as a venue, I personally love the atmosphere and buzz I get from the day and have attended all the Champs so far. It might not be perfect but as someone who is constantly looking for venues, I appreciate how difficult it is to find a suitable hall for 150 dancers, never mind 1200! I also know that Dave (Bradders) and Mike Ellard have left no stone unturned to either find another venue or improve the current one.

I should be in London again on the 1st of May and look forward to watching some of the best dancers in the UK / world competing, and mostly, to see many friends and spend a fab day.

Will
18th-February-2005, 01:48 PM
Champs Stuff

(snip)

David Bradley
Ceroc Champs Organisor and Ceroc London Manager
:yeah:
Post of the Year Bradders! Flood this man with Rep!

Now come on Andy, pick up the gauntlet AND the WATER PISTOL and police the "No Smoking" Policy! I'm sure Bradders will let you where womens clothing instead of a staff T-Shirt if you want! :cheers:

Will
18th-February-2005, 01:53 PM
Champs StuffPosting of quarter final results
Last year we tried a method used in the Ballroom Competition World of keeping every body in suspense before announcing the qualifiers. The idea is that it increases the level of anticipation and expectation amongst the competitors and generally makes the competition more 'exciting'. From feedback received the audience certainly enjoyed this new feature however the competitors don't like the anticipation. This is a spectator event, nonetheless we are aware of the pressure on the entrants and this will be reviewed this year.

In my opinion, I think you should give out the results as soon as possible. It make's it awfully difficult for the competitors otherwise.

Cheers,

Will

DavidY
18th-February-2005, 02:36 PM
Champs Stuff ~SNIPPED~Excellent post IMO - good to see responses on these issues.

One issue which I don't think Bradders mentioned - the volume of music. I went to the champs in 2003 and found it deafening - I ended up wearing earplugs all day (which I prefer not to) and this was one reason I didn't go in 2004.

From posts on the forum about the 2004 champs it sounds like it was a problem in 2004 as well. Is this something that will be addressed this year?

On the issue of timing of results - I'm encouraged to see this is being reviewed. I'd like to add my vote to the "publish as soon as you know them" method. Last time I went I was mainly a spectator (entered and swiftly exited the DWAS competition) and don't feel that any suspense for spectators is worth the inconvenience caused to competitors.

Dan Hudson
18th-February-2005, 02:49 PM
One issue which I don't think Bradders mentioned - the volume of music. I went to the champs in 2003 and found it deafening - I ended up wearing earplugs all day (which I prefer not to) and this was one reason I didn't go in 2004.

From posts on the forum about the 2004 champs it sounds like it was a problem in 2004 as well. Is this something that will be addressed this year?



In fairness, I was Djing last year and was told the music was too loud.. i adjusted the volume and all was well.... where the DJ booth has to be sited is behine the majority of the speakers, this is an absolute nightmare to get the sound levels right, myself, Erick and a few others were constantly running around and adjuting as necessary.... if its too loud..tell us....

or alternatively don't sit on the speaker :rofl:

Bradders.... :worthy: wicked post.. nice one..... :clap: :clap: I am sure this years champs will be fantastic.. :cheers:

ChrisA
18th-February-2005, 02:52 PM
...and Finally!
To anyone that has read this post all the way through may I thank you for your interest and tenacity.
....
David Bradley
Ceroc Champs Organisor and Ceroc London Manager
Not at all. Thank you for taking the trouble to reply on this thread in such a considered way.

We need this quality of communication from the competition organisers so much - in fact reading this makes me realise how rare it is. So thanks again. :cheers:

I'd just pick up one point; others have, but let me add my voice too.

This business about making it more exciting for the spectators... I really don't think posting the numbers up as soon as the decision has been made would take anything away at all the spectators. Most of them won't remember the numbers anyway, and they certainly won't be running up and down the stairs to look at them anyway.

For the competitors, it's hell not to know for such a long time. The day is exhausting enough as it is - repeated changes, conserving energy, worrying about when and whether to eat, and just generally stressing, all takes it out of you.

So please, prompt counting of judges' votes and prompt publishing of the numbers through to the next round. If there had to be a choice, I'd give up better changing facilities, better lighting, and even succumb to a strip search (if she was pretty :devil: ) in return for this one thing.

Chris

djtrev
18th-February-2005, 03:16 PM
Excellent post Bradders.
Now perhaps we can wait until after the Champs and if the improvements are not there then give it to him(Bradders) with both barrels.
In the meantime FOR HEAVENS SAKE GIVE IT A REST

Not long ago(I think it was the Peter Phillips affair) somebody posted that the reason why a number of people no longer contributed to this forum was because there was a lot of bickering and bad feeling within the forumites.
Well I have to say that this particular thread was to me a good example of that
If you dont like the way the Champs are run then by all means complain to the organisers both personally and if as you did,through this forum.Then if you are still not satisfied-DONT ENTER
With respect Andy,I appreciate your concerns for the Champs but your continuous rantings would have done nothing to endear yourself to me if I was the organiser.Even after Bradders long and informative answers to all your questions(couldnt spell queries) you couldnt let it lie, you still had to have another little shot at him!!

ericklondon
18th-February-2005, 03:23 PM
Even after Bradders long and informative answers to all your questions(couldnt spell queries) you couldnt let it lie, you still had to have another little shot at him!!

Thank you Trev :wink:

Erick

Ps: we are getting a T shirt especially made for Andy in case he accepts our job offer....
Can anyone suggests some colour schemes....? wording...?


:wink:

RobC
18th-February-2005, 06:37 PM
Dave, first off, thank you for taking the time to reply. It is appreciated and rest assured I did read your post all the way through. However, since your post singles me out, I feel I should reply to some of your comments. In the spirit of 'moving on' though, I will do this off-line when I have more time (do you read PMs, or should I email you ?).

Just 2 things to reply publically :

Will Rob Coward come....?
That is up to Rob Coward!!
Nope. I have no plans to attend.



I do feel that contributors to this forum should have their self interests in the modern jive business made clear and open, so that the average forum member is aware of any conflict of interest that may be involved, and may underlie any given position on any given subject.
My interests in MJ are no secret. I don't have any alegences to any competition, or any MJ organisation other than Ceroc (since JiveBug became Ceroc Plus). Although I'm not a CTA trained teacher, I currently teach for both Ceroc Plus and Ceroc Surrey at various venues 3 nights a week. I am an avid supporter of the MJC weekender, and last year taught at the Boppin Bristol event (have been asked back again this year :clap: ).
When it comes to competitions, I am a keen competitor and enjoy the challenge of pitting my skill and technique against other dancers, however I am primarily there to have fun and don't take the competing too seriously.

Minnie M
19th-February-2005, 12:28 AM
........we are getting a T shirt especially made for Andy in case he accepts our job offer....
Can anyone suggests some colour schemes....? wording...?


Ceroc Black T-Shirt + PINK letters

I don't smoke - I smoulder !

The SMOULDER possibly sparkly :whistle:

ericklondon
19th-February-2005, 01:04 AM
Hi Minnie,

Thanks I love that one... would it match with a pink tutu though...??
:rofl: :wink:

Erick

Minnie M
19th-February-2005, 02:06 AM
........... pink tutu..........
Hmmmmm............. how about it UP - can Andy borrow yours :whistle: :blush:

Andy McGregor
19th-February-2005, 02:28 AM
Hmmmmm............. how about it UP - can Andy borrow yours :whistle: :blush:I have my own. I call the colour "cerise" :wink:

under par
19th-February-2005, 04:23 AM
Hmmmmm............. how about it UP - can Andy borrow yours :whistle: :blush:


It may be a tutu on my frame but it would be a virtual TENT on Andy...so....no he can't play with it, its mine ........okay :whistle:

bigdjiver
19th-February-2005, 01:08 PM
Champs Stuff ...

10) Water IS available...just ask for it if it is not on the bar.
11) Choice...buy bottled or drink tap water what is wrong with that??

...
David Bradley
Ceroc Champs Organisor and Ceroc London Manager

Am I reading this right - tap water will be available, and it will be free?

When I last went the food section were selling tea & coffee. If this section is under Ceroc control, will they also be offering free tap water?

A perhaps, instead of having to queue and ask for it, which I gather will be the situation at the bars, will they have it freely available in jugs?

Gus
19th-February-2005, 01:47 PM
I suppose my main concern would be over-crowding. I know of several events (not just Ceroc run) where people are packed in. Having endured two Champs my overwehlming issue was with the lack of space to set kit down, move around, never mind dance. I know the London set are used to more 'compact' dance spaces ... but has this continued to be an issue? For the size of the dance floor, which isnt that much bigger than my club floors, 1000 does seem a lot of people. Could someone give an objective view/response on this?

ericklondon
19th-February-2005, 02:39 PM
It may be a tutu on my frame but it would be a virtual TENT on Andy...so....no he can't play with it, its mine ........okay :whistle:
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Classic.....!!!

Gus,

You have not been to the champs for the last 4 years at least.....!!!
Are you jumping on the bandwagon and trying to stir Andy again...???

Hope you are all well !!!

I'm off out tonight and NOT with Andy !!
Have a great weekend !!
:yum: :yum:

Erick

Andy McGregor
19th-February-2005, 03:36 PM
I'm off out tonight and NOT with Andy !!
Have a great weekend !!
:yum: :yum:

Erick
Tonight I'm dedicating my time to raising money for orphans in Africa by putting on a charity dance in Brighton - does this prove I'm human?

I hope not :devil:

bradders
24th-February-2005, 04:04 PM
In answer to the Reponses to my last thread.

Firstly BIG thanks to all the people who took the time to read my last tome and for the kind comments.
Also I have literally lost count of the people who have approached me at Ceroc after that post offering support and encouragement for the work we do and for my comments in the post.
If all those people and others who browse but don't post were to do so, we would have a far more balanced perspective from this forum.
It seems the silent majority are put off from participating in the forum because of the negativity they encounter here which is a real shame (imho).
(they are also shy I suppose but should be encourged to participate).

Anyway to respond;

Judging Criteria
I have Linda working on a definitions page for the website that will make crystal clear the meaning of the judging criteria as mentioned in the rules under each category. This will be posted on the website once it is completed which will probably be next week.
We have asked Dave and Lily Barker to be on the judging panel for the new aerials competition and we will be posting an aerials definition along with the other criteria next week. I would like to thank Dave for his help in compiling this definition.

Judges Generally
As I have said before this is a Ceroc Competition and it is only right that the majority of the judges be chosen from the ranks of the Ceroc teachers.
That is what we choose to do and that is what we will do this year. Having said that we are also bringing in other expert judges for specific categories.

Posting Results.
On the schedule which was available on the website and was given to everyone who came to the event, the times of the postings of the results for each category heat was listed so everybody would know when the results for a specific heat would be available on the results board.
This should have alleviated any confusion but seems to have caused more!!
This year following feedback from this forum and elsewhere we will just post the results as soon as they are ready all the way through to the finals.
Ladies Changing
Thanks for you feedback and I will make sure there is are hanging rails and mirrors in the ladies changing this year.

Changes
Andy, I am more than willing to make as many changes as are required to make the Ceroc Champs as good as it can be, given natural financal constraints and location and etc.

Andys T shirt
I was thinking that it would be a standard Ceroc Champs Crew Shirt with Ceroc logo on front and CREW Champs 2005 on the back the same as all the other crew wear..
As Official Non Smoking Enforcer you would be a representative of Ceroc and should be recognisable as such.

Tramp
Sorry you won't be coming this year as I think you must have been to most of them I have been involved with ever since you were one of our taxi dancers. (well until we banned you one year but we won't bring that up again!! :wink: )

Music Volume
Think Dan answered this one well enough, but I will make sure Erick who organises the music side of things is aware and monitors the situation.

Transparency on Forum
I still feel that forum members should have their interests in the business open to scrutiny. This could I presume be added to the profile section quite easily (Franck?? :confused: ) then with one double click on the name of the person posting you can see if they have any self interests regarding the subject they are posting about which would allow you to take a more balanced and informed perspective of their comments.
Can we start this as a new thread and see how people feel about it??
Franck can you put in the relavent section please! ta.

RobC
Hi Rob, you can contact me by PM or my email is david@ceroclondon.com
Just so you know my transparency on Forum initiative was not aimed at you specifically, I genuinely feel it would add to the quality of the forum. Also I resonded specifically to the list from your last post to clarify the position on all the points you raised and because a lot of them were not true.

Tap Water
I will ask the venue if they can provide water in jugs on the bar. They have a legal obligation to provide water when asked for it but not in jugs for self service. But I will ask and see if they are willing to do it. We should be able to provide tap water in the canteen area should the venue say no via the bars.

Numbers
I think one year we had about 1600 people at the Champs and that was heaving, it was after that we decided to set a limit at 1200. 200 of the tickets sold are for the party which means after 7.30pm. Before this time quite a lot of people have left already. There are also a fair number of no shows, so in reality there are probably less than 1000 in the building at any one time.
The Champs is not a freestyle event so to compare it to a regular club night is not relevant.
It is busy and that adds to the atmosphere.
We normally lay over 250m2 of extra flooring to the existing dance floor so it is bigger than you think.
Interestingly there is a wooden floor upstairs that I have cleared for dancing for the last 2 years and no body has danced up there because they all want to be on the main dance floor with everybody else!
The Champs is about more than just getting a dance in so I feel to value the day by how crowded the dance floor is slightly narrow minded.(imho)

Is Andy human??
Jury's out!!

I'm hope we are just about at the end of this thread now..... :what:
Anybody who has any suggestions regarding the Champs please PM me or send me an email.
All suggestions welcome.
All comments welcome.
Everybody welcome on 1st May
Hope to see you all at 'The Champs'
Kind regards
David

bradders
24th-February-2005, 04:07 PM
Whoops just noticed the commercial operator bit under my name.....
great, thanks Franck, still think we should add section to profile though :D
David

Andy McGregor
24th-February-2005, 04:13 PM
Is Andy human??
Jury's out!!On a bad day :devil:

Great response Bradders. I'm pleased to see so many of our complaints addressed - as I've always said, Bradders is one of the best :clap:

And here is the question addressed to those non-posting, watching whingers who complain in private about us vocal public whingers. Do you think these improvements would have been made if people like me hadn't got on our soap box?

Or course, you won't post an answer, because if you do you stop being one of the people who should be answering the question :confused:

djtrev
24th-February-2005, 05:04 PM
Andy I would imagine that the non-posting whingers you are referring to probably think that there comments or criticisms would fall on deaf ears.For anything to be done it seems it has to come from somebody with a fairly high profile and you and the MJ mafia :wink: on this forum seem to fit the bill nicely.Well it worked didnt it.
They have even sucked up to you by offering you a jobas a smoke detector.Complete with official uniform!!
IMHO this whole thread should have been discussed in the office of Ceroc and the results posted on this forum at their conclusion.While I did find it interesting at times the complaints were really all to do with competitors and very little to do with the rank and file members of the MJ fraternity.

RobC
24th-February-2005, 05:17 PM
While I did find it interesting at times the complaints were really all to do with competitors and very little to do with the rank and file members of the MJ fraternity.
But if a competition isn't being organised for the competitors, what is the point in organising it at all ? :confused:

Minnie M
24th-February-2005, 05:19 PM
They have even sucked up to you by offering you a jobas a smoke detector.Complete with official uniform!!

Andy the Smoke Detective (woops Detector) :rofl:

Does that mean you can't complete :tears:

Bill
24th-February-2005, 05:23 PM
Judges Generally
As I have said before this is a Ceroc Competition and it is only right that the majority of the judges be chosen from the ranks of the Ceroc teachers.
That is what we choose to do and that is what we will do this year. Having said that we are also bringing in other expert judges for specific categories.

Kind regards
David


I think this would be a great idea. Although most trained teachers should be able to judge most events I think there are techniques and nuances in some events that make it a little more difficult. Aerials is obviously one and I believe double trouble is another.

As a post competitor in DT I've seen some results that left me puzzled and have sometimes wondered what was being looked for in a threesome. I believe that the skill is to really dance to the track and interpret the music rather than do as many intricate moves as possible - so a bit like any other comp really !!

There are a few Ceroc teachers - Scot for one - who are superb at DT and are aware of the demands and the intricasies of dancing with two followers. I think unless you've really tried DT it's difficult to appreciate what is easy and what is difficult to perform.

The plans and the improvements sound great and I'm sure the event will be very successful and enjoyable but I have no plans to come down this year as I still don't really like the venue. But good luck to everyone who is competing. :cheers: :clap:

TheTramp
24th-February-2005, 09:07 PM
Posting Results.
This year following feedback from this forum and elsewhere we will just post the results as soon as they are ready all the way through to the finals.
Well done Bradders. I think that this change is for the better for the competitors :worthy:


Tramp
Sorry you won't be coming this year as I think you must have been to most of them I have been involved with ever since you were one of our taxi dancers. (well until we banned you one year but we won't bring that up again!! :wink: )

I'm sorry I won't be coming as well. Have been to all of the competitions (except one :whistle: ). And I'm missing my first ever Blackpool in 2 weeks as well!! Unless you want to offer me a role as a judge, and pay expenses!! :whistle:

Ah well.... I'll be back in 5 years time :clap:

Gus
24th-February-2005, 10:47 PM
The Champs is about more than just getting a dance in so I feel to value the day by how crowded the dance floor is slightly narrow minded.(imho)Find this a slightly disconcerting statement. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that all the competitions were then to provide a great freestyle opportunity. I know that at Blackpool this has always been a major feature. If you are going to promote freestyle as part of the package then isnt it reasonable for people to expect there to be room to dance? :confused: If freestyle is not part of the package .. then isnt it just a chnace to see the UKs best dnacers perform then all go home.....

Sorry if I'm being black and white but I'm a little unclear as to what your target market is and what is your value proposition.

Oh ... re my business interests (whoihc you seem to have a real probelm with for reasons I'm still unclear about) ...urrr, well when it comes to competitions ... NONE .... and don't really have an axe to grind with Ceroc generally ... especially as I have to frequent your clubs now I'm exiled to the South :whistle:

ChrisA
24th-February-2005, 11:03 PM
But if a competition isn't being organised for the competitors, what is the point in organising it at all ? :confused:
......:yeah:

Just for once, let me express something even more emphatically than RobC.

It's a competition, Ok?

The spectators can go and freestyle anywhere they like, whenever they like. There's a freestyle night somewhere accessible pretty much every Saturday.

But let's get this straight - without the competitors, there is no competition.

Duh... :mad:

It's not a zoo... it's a competition. The competitors put a ***** load of time, money, effort, sweat, stress, and if tonight is anything to go by, tears, into preparing for competitions. Sure we do it cos we choose to, and there are compensations...

But how DARE people that like to go and watch, put down the competitors as having needs that are in some way inferior, second class.

We pay more, we put more effort in, we work harder, we put more of ourselves in, than anyone who goes to do a bit of freestyle, meet their friends and watch a spectacle.

It's the competitors that provide the spectacle, and let no one forget it.

Chris

Mary
25th-February-2005, 12:29 AM
.While I did find it interesting at times the complaints were really all to do with competitors and very little to do with the rank and file members of the MJ fraternity.

I thought we were all rank and file members of the MJ fraternity, and I thought that this is who the Ceroc Champs is run for - for us rank and file dancers to test ourselves and have some fun doing so.

ChrisA, that's quite an emphatic post, and I'm inclined to agree with you. There's an awful lot of blood, sweat and tears involved in having fun!!! :devil: :wink:

Sterling (stirling?) work Bradders - taking on a bunch of us whingers in not for the fainthearted. :worthy: and thanks for listening.

M

spindr
25th-February-2005, 01:34 AM
Surely the only moral responsibility is to ensure that both competitors and spectators get value for money on the day.

Expenditure outside the event is irrelevant -- some of the spectators may even spend more travelling to the event than competitors have in practising, should they get more recognition of that? Nah.

SpinDr.

TheTramp
25th-February-2005, 01:52 AM
Surely the only moral responsibility is to ensure that both competitors and spectators get value for money on the day.

Expenditure outside the event is irrelevant -- some of the spectators may even spend more travelling to the event than competitors have in practising, should they get more recognition of that? Nah.
:yeah:

I don't think it's about meeting the needs of any one group of people - especially if that means excluding the needs of another group. It's about meeting as many of the needs of everyone who goes as possible.

Who's to say that any particular competitor has spent more time practising, and more money, than someone has spent travelling to the event, or the cost of getting there, even if they are only a spectator? Of course, some people do take it all very seriously, spend great deals of money and time. Others turn up on the day and find a partner there and then (thanks Emma :worthy: ) :whistle:

The only other thing to say is that I hope everyone (competitors and spectators alike) has a great day and enjoys themselves, and dances as well as they can, in whatever competition they are entered in.

bigdjiver
25th-February-2005, 02:57 PM
I wonder if we could split the champs over two venues? perhaps Hammersmith Town hall? I believe there is also another small hall even nearer.
The other hall could be perhaps used as a rehearsal space, for heats, or freestyle - perhaps even a blues room. I know I would rather be dancing than watching early heats of DWAS.

Easter Bunny
25th-February-2005, 03:04 PM
:yeah:

I don't think it's about meeting the needs of any one group of people - especially if that means excluding the needs of another group. It's about meeting as many of the needs of everyone who goes as possible.

:yeah:
Totally agree Tramp - Surely everyone going to any competition event and has paid their dues - no matter how much - is entitled to enjoy it equally - whether competitor or spectator. There shouldn't be any class distinction here.

Sure the competitors are entertaining for the spectators, but that is part of why they enter comps - to show off and be stared at, it doesn't necessarily make them more important.

Easter Bunny

RobC
25th-February-2005, 04:19 PM
:yeah:
Totally agree Tramp - Surely everyone going to any competition event and has paid their dues - no matter how much - is entitled to enjoy it equally - whether competitor or spectator. There shouldn't be any class distinction here.

Sure the competitors are entertaining for the spectators, but that is part of why they enter comps - to show off and be stared at, it doesn't necessarily make them more important.

Easter Bunny
So why charge the competitors more money than spectators then ? Surely if the competitors are there to entertain the spectators, the competitors should be getting paid to dance. :devil:

Lets not forget - as Chris so eloquently put it "without the competitors, there is no competition". Forgetting for the moment the fact that while the competitors are not dancing in their heat, they are themselves spectators, any event claiming to be a competition (as opposed to a freestyle event with a cabaret), has to put the competitors first.

Gus
25th-February-2005, 06:04 PM
So why charge the competitors more money than spectators then ? {ODA Mode ON}Because they are willing to pay gross amounts of money and put themsleves through months of hell, then humiliate themselves ( :sick: ) in public with little chance of actualy winning anything. Laws of supply and demand. As an organiser if someone is going to throw large amounts of dosh at me to do this I think I'd be a fool to turn them down. :wink:{ODA Mode OFF}

Maybe the question is not "why do they charge so much" but "why do you pay so much"?

TheTramp
25th-February-2005, 06:20 PM
So why charge the competitors more money than spectators then ? Surely if the competitors are there to entertain the spectators, the competitors should be getting paid to dance. :devil:

Lets not forget - as Chris so eloquently put it "without the competitors, there is no competition". Forgetting for the moment the fact that while the competitors are not dancing in their heat, they are themselves spectators, any event claiming to be a competition (as opposed to a freestyle event with a cabaret), has to put the competitors first.
I didn't think that they did charge the competitors more money than the spectators - for being spectators.

Everyone pays the same to get in, surely. Which makes them all spectators. And then, people who want to compete, choose to pay to enter whatever competition they want to enter. That's their choice, and no-one is forcing them to do it. And it works like that at all the competitions I've ever been to, for things other than dancing too of course.

El Salsero Gringo
25th-February-2005, 06:27 PM
{ODA Mode ON}Because they are willing to pay gross amounts of money and put themsleves through months of hell, then humiliate themselves ( :sick: ) in public with little chance of actualy winning anything. Laws of supply and demand. As an organiser if someone is going to throw large amounts of dosh at me to do this I think I'd be a fool to turn them down. :wink:{ODA Mode OFF}

Maybe the question is not "why do they charge so much" but "why do you pay so much"?
Gus, Gus, Gus,

Stop hiding behind your silly ODA monicker, and your {ODA Mode ON}{ODA Mode OFF} inflatable water-wing tags! Have the courage of your convictions! If that's what you think of Champs competitors - have the courage to sign your name to it, without disclaimer!

Do you imagine this charade give you the right to be provocative without having to answer for your own words?

Or don't you think we're intelligent enough to spot satire in your prose without 6-foot high indicator boards?

Gus
25th-February-2005, 07:22 PM
Gus, Gus, Gus,

Stop hiding behind your silly ODA monicker, and your {ODA Mode ON}{ODA Mode OFF} inflatable water-wing tags! Have the courage of your convictions! If that's what you think of Champs competitors - have the courage to sign your name to it, without disclaimer!

Do you imagine this charade give you the right to be provocative without having to answer for your own words?

Or don't you think we're intelligent enough to spot satire in your prose without 6-foot high indicator boards?...because ... you herbert ... I dont actualy hold sway with teh 'ODA' comment :angry: As a newcomer maybe you miss the point but I have a tendancy of putting forward a view that draws debate. Some people may hold sway with that view ... I DON'T! I feel that competitors are charged too much! End of story.

Mild suggestion ... get your facts right before launching personal attacks on the forum :flower:

spindr
25th-February-2005, 07:52 PM
So why charge the competitors more money than spectators then ? Surely if the competitors are there to entertain the spectators, the competitors should be getting paid to dance. :devil:
Hmmm, someone's got to pay to feed and water the judges :)

SpinDr.

El Salsero Gringo
25th-February-2005, 08:14 PM
...because ... you herbert ... I dont actualy hold sway with teh 'ODA' comment :angry: As a newcomer maybe you miss the point but I have a tendancy of putting forward a view that draws debate. Some people may hold sway with that view ... I DON'T! I feel that competitors are charged too much! End of story.

Mild suggestion ... get your facts right before launching personal attacks on the forum :flower:
I assure you, there's nothing personal about it, and it's nothing like an attack.

As a newcomer, no, I haven't missed the point. You obviously don't think anyone's capable of reading irony in your posting - or else you don't trust yourself to write it without the crutch of putting 'tags' around it.

Be expressive, be provocative, be prepared to go down in flames for what you say - but can't you, please, do it in a more graceful manner?

ChrisA
25th-February-2005, 09:27 PM
You obviously don't think anyone's capable of reading irony in your posting - or else you don't trust yourself to write it without the crutch of putting 'tags' around it.


... :yeah:

Not only that, but the real skill in playing devil's advocate is in articulating an argument and leaving the listeners, or readers, in this case, not actually quite sure whether it's a view held by, or not held by the proponent of the view.

:innocent:

Dreadful Scathe
25th-February-2005, 10:05 PM
... :yeah:

Not only that, but the real skill in playing devil's advocate is in articulating an argument and leaving the listeners, or readers, in this case, not actually quite sure whether it's a view held by, or not held by the proponent of the view.

:innocent:
Gus is perfectly good at playing Devils Advocate, ever since the early days of the forum, thats why he has the ODA label under his name. He only started adding {oda} tags inside his posts when too many people reacted as if the post was his deeply held belief, rather than just a topic for discussion!

Of course now he also has to contend with people who criticise the way he posts rather than the actual subject under discussion :)

djtrev
25th-February-2005, 10:41 PM
Quote;
but I have a tendancy of putting forward a view that draws debate.

Do you mean not necessarily(?) your own personal view

djtrev
26th-February-2005, 02:38 AM
Actually Mary I meant that not only were there competitors but also spectators and at an event like that the health,safety and welfare of everybody matters.Apart from the concern about the poor lighting under the stairs it seems the complaints were all competitor based.

I thought we were all rank and file members of the MJ fraternity
At the risk of being too aggressive,too provovative and prepared to be flamed it appears to me that there are a number of forumites here who think of themselves as anything but rank and file.


It's not a zoo... it's a competition. The competitors put a ***** load of time, money, effort, sweat, stress, and if tonight is anything to go by, tears, into preparing for competitions. Sure we do it cos we choose to, and there are compensations...

But how DARE people that like to go and watch, put down the competitors as having needs that are in some way inferior, second class.

We pay more, we put more effort in, we work harder, we put more of ourselves in, than anyone who goes to do a bit of freestyle, meet their friends and watch a spectacle.

It's the competitors that provide the spectacle, and let no one forget it.
You have no idea how pompous that makes you sound.


It's not a zoo... it's a competition. The competitors put a ***** load of time, money, effort, sweat, stress, and if tonight is anything to go by, tears, into preparing for competitions. Sure we do it cos we choose to, and there are compensations...
Then when you(not you personally) dont progress thro to the next round and you think you should, you question the judging of the competition,the timing of this, the lack of that,why this,why that.Quite frankly I'm not interested in the Champs because I dont and wont compete,I dance for fun and friendship.If you have a problem with Ceroc take it up with them.Sometimes this forum gets to bogged down with serious debate.I can see why some people drift away.Me? No I shall stay because I like to find out about the music thats played and what goes on in the other venues around the country.
Where everybody goes at the weekend.How was the last weekender.You know; all the irrelevant nonsense.
I really dont want to come home from a hard day at work and battle with the likes of Andy,Gus,Chris,Bob and uncle Tom........

Well El Salsero Gringo
Was that aggressive enough!

Gus
26th-February-2005, 02:50 AM
.
I really dont want to come home from a hard day at work and battle with the likes of Andy,Gus,Chris,Bob and uncle Tom........Who is battling :blush: Didnt realise that putting forward one's views had become such a crime?

Can't we accept that different people will have different views on the whole subject. We had 2 yaers of debating as to whether competitions were a 'good' or a 'bad' thing. There were some excellent points made ... suggest you review those debates and then maybe that will give you a diffrenet perspective on how people think about competitions.

djtrev
26th-February-2005, 02:54 AM
So why charge the competitors more money than spectators then ? Surely if the competitors are there to entertain the spectators, the competitors should be getting paid to dance.
Surely the competitors are there first and foremost to compete not to entertain.
Without the spectators I would assume the prize money would be considerably less.I am sure it doesnt all come out of Ceroc's pocket.Surely you try to cover your costs by charging the public to spectate

Yliander
26th-February-2005, 04:32 AM
it seems the complaints were all competitor based. that may have something to do with the fact that on the day the competitors are the ones who are putting their arses on line to provide the spectacle that the spectators are watching and as long as they can see the dance floor they are generally not phased by much - as they have much more freedom to come and go from venues than competitors.

many competitors put a lot of time and effort into preparing for competitions - and is to much for them to expect that the organisers would provide and safe, clear and understandable structure to the day to enable the competitors to do their best - it is hard to do your best if you are compeletely flustered from running around trying to work out what is going on and then barely making your slot.

with out competitors it wouldn't be much of an event would it


Quite frankly I'm not interested in the Champs because I dont and wont compete, very easy for you to dismiss competitors concerns then - as it has no impact on you
I dance for fun and friendship. and you think people who compete in competitions don't dance for fun & friendship?


Sometimes this forum gets to bogged down with serious debate. a forum that was all frivolous fluff wouldn't be much use - if you don't like serious debate on complex issues then perhaps you should stay out of them and stick to lightweight threads

Personally I like the serious debates - much more informative than a grand lovefest all the time

bigdjiver
26th-February-2005, 10:53 AM
One thing I love about MJ is that it is multi-faceted. It can be done as an entertainment for spectators. It is also nice to see people striving for perfection in line and form and flow, doing what they do well, but I would not pay to see ditch digging done to perfection, and even most ice skating comps bore me. It is only when there is a substantial creative element involved, such as in the free dance, that I become really interested.

So I think that many of the competitors should be considered as entertainers. I also think we should try to keep it "for love" as long as possible, I would like to delay the pro-Am divide for as long as possible. It will be interesting to see how Ceroc handles it. Jive-Masters seems to be one possible line for development, a seed-bed for a pro comp.

djtrev
26th-February-2005, 11:42 AM
Quote;
putting their arses on line to provide the spectacle
Give over,arses on the line,its only a competition for Christs sake.So,you dont catch the judges eye.Big deal,its not the end of the world.
I would hardly class it as a spectacle.Actually having just looked the word up in a dictionary perhaps it is the right choice of word-
spectacle-strange,interesting,or rediculous sight
Elsewhere on this forum I have voiced an opinion regarding "showing off" to the audience and here it is again.I would imagine that most spectators are there to gain tips and inspiration from dancers who are more competent and accomplished than themselves.
quote;
very easy for you to dismiss competitors concerns then - as it has no impact on you
I didnt dismiss your concerns I just stated that it should have been taken up with the organisers.Then by all means report the outcome and progress of those meetings to the members of the forum.

ChrisA
26th-February-2005, 11:47 AM
You have no idea how pompous that makes you sound.

Well, stung by this (doubtless your intention), I thought I'd come back.

I have no interest in making a competition uninteresting for the spectators, and like the Tramp, I'm not interested in excluding anyone's needs to meet mine.

I had formed the impression (a bit exaggerated somehow, possibly, having gone back through the thread) that there was a school of thought that said that it was all about the spectators, whose needs should be paramount.

Now that did get my goat, since, as several people have now said, without the competition, it's just a freestyle event, and there are lots of them. And many of us that choose to compete, put a lot of ourselves into it, a lot of time, hard work, time, money (not just at or getting to the venue), and dedication, to improve our dancing.

If people choose not to compete, that's fine, and as I said, there are compensations from getting involved in the whole comps thing. But it does annoy me if I get a sense that people who don't know what they're talking about are putting the whole thing down, yet still like to go and watch the spectacle.



Then when you(not you personally) dont progress thro to the next round and you think you should, you question the judging of the competition,the timing of this, the lack of that,why this,why that.

This, I find quite offensive. One person has talked about the judging, over one specific issue of transparency. Hopefully that has been resolved, now, but it remains the case that at other competitions, the judging is much quicker, much more transparent, independently scrutinised, and the results promptly posted.

To link a specific valid probing of the judging process to a general suggestion of sour grapes when people don't get through is just too much.

As I've said before, it's become something of a forum crime to take the dance and the music seriously, but this goes a stage further.

From someone who, by his own admission, is


not interested in the Champs because I dont and wont compete, I dance for fun and friendship.

, it seems a bit rich that you think you have a right to view the people that take part as unreasonable, when they try to improve the whole event.


If you have a problem with Ceroc take it up with them.Sometimes this forum gets to bogged down with serious debate.

No one holds a gun to your head to take part in threads you're not interested in.


I really dont want to come home from a hard day at work and battle with the likes of Andy,Gus,Chris,Bob and uncle Tom........

Well don't then :)

Stick to the luvvie threads.

And there's no battle. It's just people putting forward views, listening to others' views, and trying to improve things as a result.

Gus
26th-February-2005, 12:32 PM
Back on thread...

Looking at the 'competition' element of the event ... it may be that for the top level Ceroc may have the edge this year. For a number of reasons it seems that a number of the top competitiors (Will & Kate, Viktor & Carol, Lilly etc) are not competing up North. Are they going to be at Ceroc? I still vastly perfer the Blackpool event as both a competitor and as a spectator/dancer (theres room to dance!) ... but if you want to see the best competing, is this Ceroc's year .... or does everyone only expect that form the JiveMasters now?

Lynn
26th-February-2005, 12:34 PM
Quote;
putting their arses on line to provide the spectacle Please, please do quotes properly and say who you are quoting before commenting on it! Its OK to not have the person's name if you quote from their same post a little further in your own, but its not fair on either the person reading or the person you are quoting if you are commenting on something but don't give any reference to who said it.

Interesting thread btw. I've only been to one comp, planned to go to spectate, was persuaded to participate - had a fabulous day - why? Not just because of the taking part (which was challenging!) or watching some great dancine (which was inspiring) but in a large part down to the 'fun and friendship' of the other dancers there (and the hard work of the organisers for putting the day together).

RobC
26th-February-2005, 12:48 PM
....SNIP....
:yeah: Well said :clap:


Without the spectators I would assume the prize money would be considerably less.I am sure it doesnt all come out of Ceroc's pocket.Surely you try to cover your costs by charging the public to spectate
Hands up all competitors who actually give a t0$$ about the prize money ?

Noone ? I didn't think so - speaking personally, I don't believe that anyone seriously enters the competitions with the money in mind. Most, I'm sure, if they even make it to the finals and are placed are happy with the prestige of being place. A tacky plastic trophy would be suffiecient if it meant that the cost of entry and the cost of each category was lower.

djtrev
26th-February-2005, 01:28 PM
Of course your'e not interested in the money.Perhaps I should have left that bit out.
I was referring to the costs of putting the day on,Ceroc would surely want to try to recover most if not all of their costs.The prize money being part of the whole picture.

Yliander
26th-February-2005, 02:05 PM
Quote;
putting their arses on line to provide the spectacle
Give over,arses on the line,its only a competition for Christs sake.So,you dont catch the judges eye.Big deal,its not the end of the world. I wasn't just talking about catching the judges eye - I was talking about dancers having the courage to walk onto the competition dance floor with all those spectators watching and dance - I know everytime I walk onto a competition dance floor - I am reciting a single sentence - If I don't fall over it's all good! i'm not worring about the judges I am worrying about going out and dancing my best and hoping that at least someone in the audience will like my dancing and that no-one hates it.

Yliander
26th-February-2005, 02:07 PM
Please, please do quotes properly and say who you are quoting before commenting on it! Its OK to not have the person's name if you quote from their same post a little further in your own, but its not fair on either the person reading or the person you are quoting if you are commenting on something but don't give any reference to who said it. :yeah: it's not like it is difficult to do

ChrisA
26th-February-2005, 03:22 PM
putting their arses on line to provide the spectacle

Give over,arses on the line,its only a competition for Christs sake. So,you dont catch the judges eye. Big deal,its not the end of the world.

This, I think, perfectly sums up the gap in perception between:

- Those that take it all seriously enough to spend lots of time, energy and money preparing for competitions, and being as good as they can be, and

- Those that have no interest in competing.

Those that do, find it intensely annoying to have their efforts trivialised by those that don't know what it's like, and those that don't, don't understand what all the fuss is about.

For those that don't understand what all the fuss is about, how about thinking of something else that you do, where it really matters to you to be as good as you can be, and have the satisfaction of knowing that you've done the very best you can, and possibly even achieve the recognition of your peers in doing so.

Maybe if you have something else, not necessarily dancing, where something matters that much to you, then you'll understand that for some people, dancing is like that for them.

If you don't, well, sorry to have troubled you with this post :flower:

djtrev
26th-February-2005, 04:48 PM
I spend lots of time,money and effort into just being as good a dancer as I can possibly be.
I dont want to compete or show off,I just want to give my partner of the moment a dance that she will enjoy and hopefully come back for more.
MJ is a fun and social pastime to most people,I imagine that a lot of the competitions are as much to do with dancing politics as anything.

ChrisA
26th-February-2005, 05:20 PM
I dont want to compete or show off,I just want to give my partner of the moment a dance that she will enjoy and hopefully come back for more.

And no one has suggested that there's anything wrong with this.



MJ is a fun and social pastime to most people

Well of course it is. Including to the people that also dance in competitions.



I imagine that a lot of the competitions are as much to do with dancing politics as anything.
Well, a lot of this is about your imagination, I would venture to suggest.

You certainly have a lot of opinions about competitions and competitors for someone who has no interest in them.

The point is, as someone has said, MJ appeals to a lot of people in a lot of ways. No one that chooses to compete is knocking those that choose not to, so I don't understand why there seems to be such a need for those that don't to knock those that do.

Despite your apparent desire not to, you continue to contribute to this thread, criticise people for taking comps seriously, and make vague and unsubstantiated accusations about dance politics (which minimises the relevance of the actual dancing that people have worked so hard to achieve) and people allegedly not accepting the results...

... pretty strange from one so uninterested.

:confused: :confused:

ChrisA
26th-February-2005, 05:37 PM
I spend lots of time,money and effort into just being as good a dancer as I can possibly be.
Incidentally, I don't think anyone is suggesting that this isn't true, either.

The 'as good as you can be', however, is fairly subjective, although none the less valid for that.

It's just that some people like to have this 'best' measured objectively - and the only way of doing this is to go up against other people, and be judged.

Don't do it if it doesn't appeal. Just don't act as if competitions and social dancing are mutually exclusive, cos they ain't :flower:

djtrev
26th-February-2005, 05:37 PM
I thought that the least I should do was reply to your posts.

With respect I shall now withdraw!!

stewart38
28th-February-2005, 10:59 AM
:yeah: Well said :clap:


Hands up all competitors who actually give a t0$$ about the prize money ?

Noone ? I didn't think so - speaking personally, I don't believe that anyone seriously enters the competitions with the money in mind. Most, I'm sure, if they even make it to the finals and are placed are happy with the prestige of being place. A tacky plastic trophy would be suffiecient if it meant that the cost of entry and the cost of each category was lower.

Maybe not now but with comps giving

"sprinkled with £500 prize money for a free to enter Dance with a stranger competition,

That will come along with people demanding individual changing rooms and their own personal back door entrance :sick:

Im a competitor and spectator and id treat them equal

djtrev
8th-March-2005, 03:32 PM
I have just checked my rep messages on this thread and I would just like to say to whoever sent the rude negative rep on the 1st March,its a shame that you didnt have the balls(I am assuming you are male) to put your name to it.

ChrisA
8th-March-2005, 03:45 PM
I have just checked my rep messages on this thread and I would just like to say to whoever sent the rude negative rep on the 1st March,its a shame that you didnt have the balls(I am assuming you are male) to put your name to it.
I'm very much against anonymous rep too, but there's no such thing any more :clap:

If you cough up the 10 or 15 quid or whatever it is now, to Franck, as a member's contribution to the forum running costs, you'll be able to see who your rep is coming from in the User Control Panel.

If you don't of course, as IMHO all regular contributors here should do :devil:, then you might find some more negative rep. Don't worry, if it's from me then I'll sign it. :wink:

:D

Dreadful Scathe
8th-March-2005, 04:12 PM
Those that do, find it intensely annoying to have their efforts trivialised by those that don't know what it's like, and those that don't, don't understand what all the fuss is about.


indeed, I wonder - if we rewrote this ....



its only a competition for Christs sake.So,you dont catch the judges eye.Big deal,its not the end of the world.

as this...



its only dj-ing for Christs Sake. So, if the dancers dont like your music. Big deal, its not the end of the world

....would Dj Trev realise he is coming across as biased against competitions and the people who take part in them. I'd like to think he is proud to be good at what he does - I could be wrong !

Dreadful Scathe
8th-March-2005, 04:16 PM
on a different note...er.. the topic in fact as I just noticed what it was :) Who's travelling down from Scotland to Champs then ?

Bill
8th-March-2005, 04:23 PM
on a different note...er.. the topic in fact as I just noticed what it was :) Who's travelling down from Scotland to Champs then ?



not me................ but I hope everyone who does has a great time and dance as well as they can ( and win a few comps perhaps !!) :D :cheers:

Going to be odd having the May holiday weekend and not being at Hammersmith ............ :rolleyes:

TheTramp
8th-March-2005, 04:49 PM
I wasn't. But I did recently think about having a re-think.

But having just got the dates of my exams today, I definitely won't be now!! Got 2 exams in the week after the comp, and one more the next week :tears:

djtrev
8th-March-2005, 05:04 PM
Smurf,I am not ,I repeat not, against comps or the competitors.I obviously didnt put my point across very well at all during this thread,but I am not going over all that again.Too negative!!

Dreadful Scathe
8th-March-2005, 05:11 PM
Smurf,I am not ,I repeat not, against comps or the competitors.I obviously didnt put my point across very well at all during this thread,but I am not going over all that again.Too negative!!

I didnt say you were, i said you were coming across as biased against competitions and the people who take part in them.. I thought it was worth pointing out that fact ! :)

djtrev
8th-March-2005, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I'd like to think he is proud to be good at what he does

I am also not too proud to say that I could be a damn sight better dancer and dj.
Reading some of the posts on this forum gives me the impression that I have a long way to go.

djtrev
8th-March-2005, 05:15 PM
Fair point.
My apologies to all.
While I am at it, well done to all who competed at Blackpool.
Lets hope that Hammersmith is as good

Katie
8th-March-2005, 06:28 PM
But having just got the dates of my exams today, I definitely won't be now!! Got 2 exams in the week after the comp, and one more the next week :tears:

:yeah: :tears:

Tiggerbabe
8th-March-2005, 10:51 PM
on a different note...er.. the topic in fact as I just noticed what it was :) Who's travelling down from Scotland to Champs then ?
Me! :D