Dancing on the Half Beat

[Amir]

Can anyone out there dance on the half beat?

[El Salsero Gringo]

At four in the morning - I can do anything.

But by breakfast time it's all gone again.

[Andy McGregor]

Can anyone out there dance on the half beat?
Some people don't do anything else :innocent:

Including the "Lost Tribe of MJ" who dance somewhere in the New Forest - although I think they just dance on beats 2 and 4 in the bar. It's probably caused by all the vibration of frequently crossing cattle grids :whistle:

But, on a more serious note, what is the 'half beat' and why would we want to dance on it?

[Gadget]

Can anyone out there dance on the half beat?
Is that dancing with emphisis on the symbols/high hat rather than the base? Same tempo, just different time phase?
Have never tried, but unless my partner was doing the same, I would get pulled onto the 'main' beat.

Why?

[DavidY]

Can anyone out there dance on the half beat?I can think of occasions where the accoustic meant the teacher can't really hear what's happening in the rest of the hall, including the music.

This means occasionally when we're going through the routine to music, the teacher counts "5,6,7,8" on the off beats (if that what half beat means). It's possible to keep pace with them but feels unnatural.

I could never work out what to do in that situation - do I dance to the music (but ignore the teacher) or follow the teacher (and ignore the music)? :confused: :confused:

[Minnie M]

ONE and TWO and THREE and FOUR

Is the 'and' the half beat ?

[spindr]

Can anyone out there dance on the half beat?

Yep, but only in cha-cha, or with a "tap" added to a salsa basic (or when shining :) )

SpinDr.

[Geordieed]

I suppose what people are driving at is syncopation. Because MJ doesn't really require footwork then use your body. I think people's first port of call would be shoulders to become familiar with the concept.

[Andy McGregor]

Because MJ doesn't really require footwork
The more I do MJ, the more I realise this isn't true. You move your feet in MJ, therefore it requires footwork. It's just that you don't have to know any footwork to do the bit with your hands :confused:

[Geordieed]

The more I do MJ, the more I realise this isn't true. You move your feet in MJ, therefore it requires footwork. It's just that you don't have to know any footwork to do the bit with your hands :confused:


Another way of putting it instead of 'doesn't really require footwork' is it is not essential to use footwork. I have seen men lead MJ pretty well from a seated position and make it work. Granted you may yourself enhance your own personal dancing with a list of things to great effect. I suppose a list could be made up of moves that require movement from the starting position to make it work and visa versa. :whistle:

[Amir]

ONE and TWO and THREE and FOUR

Is the 'and' the half beat ?

yeah! The 'and' is the half beat. Some beginners dance on the half beat but they get told off and eventually learn to dance on the count. (Which means stepping on the counts).

But when you've learnt to dance on the beat stepping on the half beat is really difficult. I'm looking for someone who can do it and not because they can't not do it.

I'm practising at the moment so when I master it I'll let you know.


(in answer to two other questions: dancing on the half beat does not require syncopation if you stay on the half beat, and yes, it would be very hard to dance on the half beat unless your partner was as well.)

[Lory]

yeah! The 'and' is the half beat. Some beginners dance on the half beat but they get told off and eventually learn to dance on the count. (Which means stepping on the counts).


Hmm Interesting.. Holly (my daughter) has been told she does this, maybe it's her background in Street dance, jazz and bodylocking that's influenced the way she hears the music????

She's not 'out of time', just 'out of sync'! :)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Doesn't sound (at first instance) too hard. After all, in Cha Cha and Mambo you break on the 'two' - and I think that's all it would take to start off.

Must give it a go, sounds quite Latin-ey - or have I missed something?

[Amir]

Doesn't sound (at first instance) too hard. After all, in Cha Cha and Mambo you break on the 'two' - and I think that's all it would take to start off.

Must give it a go, sounds quite Latin-ey - or have I missed something?


Yeah. breaking on the two is still breaking on a full beat. Breaking on the two and a half would be dancing on the half beat, if you stayed on it. In normal Cha Cha only the second 'cha' is on a half beat. The rest are on 'standard' beats of the music. Same in Mambo or salsa. Some people dance 'on the two' but not the two and a half, or one and a half, or half, etc.

I don't think it would be very latin-ey. More like Reggae where the accent is on the half beat. But even in Reggae people normally step on the full beat then bop down on the half beat. I'm talking about stepping only on the half beats, and if you get really good, syncopating onto the full beats.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Aha.

I'm getting confused between people talking about beats (as in four crotchets to the bar) and beats as in Ceroc counts - which cover two crotchets (is that right?)

The 'and' of a Ceroc count is the off-beat of the music, notes 2 and 4 in the bar (yes?)

...but you'd like to dance 'in between' the musical notes????

And may I also say, for the record, that if I've got all this theory totally wrong - I *can* still dance to the beat, honest! I've got witnesses!

[Amir]

Aha.

The 'and' of a Ceroc count is the off-beat of the music, notes 2 and 4 in the bar (yes?)



I guess so.



Aha.

...but you'd like to dance 'in between' the musical notes????

!

exactly!

[Andreas]

yeah! The 'and' is the half beat. Some beginners dance on the half beat but they get told off and eventually learn to dance on the count. (Which means stepping on the counts).

But when you've learnt to dance on the beat stepping on the half beat is really difficult. I'm looking for someone who can do it and not because they can't not do it.

I'm practising at the moment so when I master it I'll let you know.


(in answer to two other questions: dancing on the half beat does not require syncopation if you stay on the half beat, and yes, it would be very hard to dance on the half beat unless your partner was as well.)


When starting to dance Ceroc I always moved on the odd numbers (or half beats or 'ands', you name it). That was because the odd numbers usually represent the stronger beat and it was easy to pick up. I was convinced to be right because I knew I was dancing at the speed of the music. And then somebody told me :rofl: :blush:

It is difficult but I can emulate it if I have to. Thing is just, if you want to use it for teaching the difference, it won't work. Most pupils will not pick it up because your pace is correct.

[MartinHarper]

When you've learnt to dance on the beat stepping on the half beat is really difficult. I'm looking for someone who can do it and not because they can't not do it.

There was one track that had (to my ear) a relatively strong half beat and a weak main beat, such that there was some (non-verbal) debate between me and my partner as to which we'd be dancing to. Aside from that, nope.

What's your motivation?

[Andy McGregor]

yeah! The 'and' is the half beat.

I'm sorry to disagree but I think the 'and' is not the 'half beat', it is the 2nd and 4th beat. There are 4 beats to the bar they go 1, 2, 3, 4. In modern jive we count them one and two and or five and six and (the others are in the next bar to complete the set to make seven and eight and). So, IMHO, describing the 'and' beat as 'off' beats is incorrect - they are just the beats we don't dance to in MJ. BUT they are still actual beats, not gaps between the beats or 'off' beats - or am I missing the point completely?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Andy,

Can you explain what you understand by Ceroc or Jive count?

When I count out a Ceroc First Move, I count to 8, including the rock-step:

Back on 1, step in and bring my partner to to my side on 2, turn out and back on 3, replace on 4, she steps under and turns on 5, steps back on 6, in and return on 7, back on 8.

That's two bars of music, a count of 8, and 8 beats. I've seen elsewhere (and copied) this assertion that a Ceroc count is two beats - but it doesn't add up.

That being the case, Amir does want to dance on the 'and' - which is the half beat: one-and-two-and-three-and-four (bar 1), five-and-six-and-seven-and-eight (bar 2).

Comments so far?

As he points out, breaking 'on the two' is reasonably easy - but breaking on the 'and'?

[Minnie M]

.......can you explain what you understand by Ceroc or Jive count?
When I count out a Ceroc First Move, I count to 8, including the rock-step:

Back on 1, step in and bring my partner to to my side on 2, turn out and back on 3, replace on 4, she steps under and turns on 5, steps back on 6, in and return on 7, back on 8.

That's two bars of music, a count of 8, and 8 beats. I've seen elsewhere (and copied) this assertion that a Ceroc count is two beats - but it doesn't add up.

That being the case, Amir does want to dance on the 'and' - which is the half beat: one-and-two-and-three-and-four (bar 1), five-and-six-and-seven-and-eight (bar 2).

Similar to Lory's post on another thread

A few years ago I was at a Jumping at the Woodside (Lindy event) when I met Dawn Hampton - who is now in her 80s, she was once a great and well nown (in her time) dancer - each year she gives a talk to encourage new dancers, and in this she always says the following :-

All I hear today, is 'count' this and 'count' that and remember the 'count' here etc etc. Come on all you dancers, I have been dancing all my life, but the only count I know is COUNT BASEY

Moral of the story - "Don't take it too seriously" dancing is for fun :flower:

[David Franklin]

When I count out a Ceroc First Move, I count to 8, including the rock-step:

Back on 1, step in and bring my partner to to my side on 2, turn out and back on 3, replace on 4, she steps under and turns on 5, steps back on 6, in and return on 7, back on 8.

That's two bars of music, a count of 8, and 8 beats. I've seen elsewhere (and copied) this assertion that a Ceroc count is two beats - but it doesn't add up.I'm never very good at this kind of thing, but I think that's actually four bars of music. Think about the tempo you'd be counting; for Ceroc it's not that different from counting seconds - so you need to double it to get to ~120 counts/minute, which is the (typical) speed of the music.

Dave

[spindr]

Can you explain what you understand by Ceroc or Jive count?

My understanding is that each MJ step is really two musical beats -- so a MJ step-back is 2 musical beats and a MJ step-in is 2 musical beats.

In the mists of time in the land of Leroc, a "step-in" would actually have two steps to it (slight push forwards on the front foot, and then close the back foot to it). Similarly, steps in a walking basket were done as a sort of limping movement, that had two steps to it, like in Cajun dance.

So, in musical counts: 1 2 3 4.
Becomes in a MJ count: 1 and 2 and.

In Lindy Hop, dancers tend to count the musical beats -- so if you compare a lindy and MJ count for a common move, i.e. the Backhander / Texas Tommy.

Lindy: (12) Back rock, (3a4) Triple step, (5) step, (6) step, (7a8) Triple step.
MJ: (12) Step back, (34) Step In, (56) Twist round, (78) Unwind the lady.

This is two bars of music, and four MJ "counts".

I only know of a few dances that will use the "and" musical beat:

Cha cha: the cha-cha-cha rhythm has a 2,3, 4 and 1 count.
Salsa: if you dance 12(34), 56(78) then you can add a tap on the "and" to get: and 1, 2, (34) and, 56 (78).
Polka: 1 and, 2 and, 3, 4 (?)


If you want to try dancing MJ to an "odd" beat, then the easiest way if probably to step on every musical beat, like a Merengue, but shift the move by a beat -- although I'm not quite sure why one would want to.

SpinDr.

[Geordieed]

I think what you have to remember is that you have to seperate the count made by a musician and the count made through a dance. It's the difference between the up beat and the down beat.

I agree with Minnie though, I was talking about this with a hugely respected dancer/teacher and they were of the thinking that dancing should have the freedom to express and take its' own shape. Mind you it was agreed that you have to learn the rules before you can know how to break them.

[Andy McGregor]

I'm never very good at this kind of thing, but I think that's actually four bars of music. Think about the tempo you'd be counting; for Ceroc it's not that different from counting seconds - so you need to double it to get to ~120 counts/minute, which is the (typical) speed of the music.

Dave
:yeah:

Like David, I think the first move takes 4 bars, which is 16 beats. The ands are just the beats that you don't count in MJ. But they are still real beats. They're not 'off' beats or 'half' beats, they're beats.

Or am I completely wrong :confused:

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think we have to agree to disagree on this - I'm quietly confident that a first move with return is two bars when the music has a 4/4 time signature.

Although possibly only a look at some sheet music is going to settle it!

Any musicians out there want to chip in?

[Robin]

:yeah:

Like David, I think the first move takes 4 bars, which is 16 beats. The ands are just the beats that you don't count in MJ. But they are still real beats. They're not 'off' beats or 'half' beats, they're beats.

Or am I completely wrong :confused:


Hmmm.... the way I see it Ceroc is technically dancing on the half beat anyway. So I assume Amir means dancing on the "musical" quarter beat and not the "musical" half beat. btw with regards to the odd counting in (5,6,7,8) on the "off" beat, I´ve found that women teachers tend to do this a lot more than men ..... but not to say that some men teachers don´t!

just my ha´pennies worth

[Trish]

:yeah:

Like David, I think the first move takes 4 bars, which is 16 beats. The ands are just the beats that you don't count in MJ. But they are still real beats. They're not 'off' beats or 'half' beats, they're beats.

Or am I completely wrong :confused:

I'm with you and David on this one, I've just counted through on Katie Melua's "Crawling up a hill" which I happened to have at work (and love dancing to!). I'll have to have a look at some of my piano music and see whether I've got anything that I also dance to - probably some of the stuff from Swinging when your Winning would do actually. I would have classed myself as a musician once (I've got a degree in the subject!), but I've lapsed and dancing has taken over!. I can't feel absolutely certain I'm right, but I'm pretty sure! :)

[ChrisA]

This has been discussed at length starting here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2599), with DavidB's post here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55745&postcount=4) as IMO the definitive answer to questions about the distinction between beats and MJ counts.

The only thing I'm not entirely clear on from Amir's original question is whether he means on the half count (ie on even-numbered musical beats), or actually on the half-musical-beat. The latter would be staggeringly difficult to do consistently I reckon (maybe that's why he wants to try it :wink: ).

And it would look like certain competition videos where the audio's out of sync :devil:

Chris

[spindr]

Back on 1, step in and bring my partner to to my side on 2, turn out and back on 3, replace on 4, she steps under and turns on 5, steps back on 6, in and return on 7, back on 8.

That's two bars of music, a count of 8, and 8 beats.

Well, just to muddy the waters further the First Move's really 7 MJ counts (and a finish) not 8 MJ counts -- your step back on 8, is the same as your step back on 1.

For example, two first moves are 14 counts (and a finish count):
Back on 1, step in and bring my partner to to my side on 2, turn out and back on 3, replace on 4, she steps under and turns on 5, steps back on 6, in and return on 7, back on 8, step in and bring my partner to to my side on 9, turn out and back on 10, replace on 11, she steps under and turns on 12, steps back on 13, in and return on 14, back on (finish).

The easy way to make a first move fit into whole musical bars is to lead an extra turn, before the return.

SpinDr.

[El Salsero Gringo]

THe point about seven, or eight, counts is well made.

As for the rest, I am going to have to find a partner to count it through with - I simply lack the part of my brain that can judge, without music and a lady to dance with, what speed the move should go! I've no doubt that you're all correct, but there's nothing like seeing it for yourself...

[Andreas]

Hmmm.... the way I see it Ceroc is technically dancing on the half beat anyway. So I assume Amir means dancing on the "musical" quarter beat and not the "musical" half beat. btw with regards to the odd counting in (5,6,7,8) on the "off" beat, I´ve found that women teachers tend to do this a lot more than men ..... but not to say that some men teachers don´t!

just my ha´pennies worth

That is wrong, Ceroc is actually dancing (moving) on every second beat.

'and 1 and 2 and 3 and 4' covers a total of 8 beats, as in two bars.

[El Salsero Gringo]

OK Guys, you were all right. A return (including a step back) is 4 bars not two. Sorry to have doubted you. (Dang, I just can't get this font any smaller.)

[Robin]

That is wrong, Ceroc is actually dancing (moving) on every second beat.

'and 1 and 2 and 3 and 4' covers a total of 8 beats, as in two bars.

True in musical terms but insomuch as dance convention is concerned it is reversed, so there ! :na: