What to do if a class overruns?

[El Salsero Gringo]

At a Ceroc class last night, mainly because of a large excess of Ladies (unusually) - the intermediate class overran it's time slot. I think that the venue manager there is trying very hard to keep the evening to time so the teacher decided to drop teaching the fourth intermediate move. Sadly that was the move I liked the best - but it did mean that freestyle started exactly on time.

At another class earlier this month, the teacher (new to this country) overran by more than 15 minutes, and as a result there was only 45 minutes freestyle. Not doing the class that night but waiting for a dance I was a teeny bit annoyed to have to wait so long.

How do you think 'slow' intermediate classes should be handled?

[Andy McGregor]

I think it's important that the freestyle starts on time if there's people that have paid for just that. If the class is getting the moves slowly for any reason the teacher can always offer to take a group of people during the freestyle teach those people that don't get it during the lesson.

[mick]

Presumably, if it over-runs, it may not have been properly planned.
It would be very unfair on newcomers, who would have been going over the basic class, to keep them waiting.

[Trousers]

I think it's important that the freestyle starts on time if there's people that have paid for just that. If the class is getting the moves slowly for any reason the teacher can always offer to take a group of people during the freestyle teach those people that don't get it during the lesson.
I have been known to get really frustrated at 9.45 and we are still labouring the 3rd move. Obnoxious was another word as well as agitated. Recently the overruns I have had to endure weren't that long but normally I end up really edgy and that will spoil my night. The freestyle is my time - if the teacher can't do what they planned in their time - well tough! Wrap it up as fast as possible.
It make me wonder though how much planning goes into these lessons sometimes, move one easy, move two medium, move three medium and move 4 hard. Wouldn't it be logical to stick the difficult move in a routine near the front so that you get lots of practice of it. Hey this must be rocket science :D
A certain green coloured MJ company in surrey only do three moves at intermediate as standard - make 'em as hard as you like then you will bag them all.

Credit where credit is due Emma Pettit is very good at timing and should she run over she will shorten the routine. The thing with Emma though is she does it with style and you dont realise. But who cares 'cos its dance time now!

[MartinHarper]

Move one easy, move two medium, move three medium and move 4 hard. Wouldn't it be logical to stick the difficult move in a routine near the front so that you get lots of practice of it?

Putting easier moves first gives the dancers a chance to warm up a little by practicing things they already know. Within routines, it allows a pair of dancers to adjust to each other during the easier moves, so that they're better prepared for the harder moves. Having easier moves first enables dancers to take the first half of a class, and drop out when the harder moves get taught. Starting with easier moves often matches the music better. (All IMO, as ever)

[Lynn]

We didn't have a very long freestyle time when we did have classes here, and I think it really slowed the progress of the dancers. You learn as much (if not more at times!) in freestyle as in a class. So from the point of view both of learning, and for those who have come only for the freestyle, I would say have a set time for a lesson and cover as much as is appropriate for the class in that time. IMO 3 moves covered well in the time allowed is better than 4 moves with the last one rushed, or the class overruning into freestyle time.

[philsmove]

I hate classes not running to time :angry:

Some classes will extend the freestyle if the class runs late, (some post class freestyle, in Bristol, go on to midnight) which is not so bad

But I get irritated if a class starts late and the freestyle time is reduced

[Trousers]

Putting easier moves first gives the dancers a chance to warm up a little by practicing things they already know. Within routines, it allows a pair of dancers to adjust to each other during the easier moves, so that they're better prepared for the harder moves. Having easier moves first enables dancers to take the first half of a class, and drop out when the harder moves get taught. Starting with easier moves often matches the music better. (All IMO, as ever)

In classes we all move around and do not get chance to appreciate the finer points of ones lead or follow allowing us to better cope with more difficult moves we just get on with it with which ever poor sod gets us next.

Punters dropping out is worse than taking a long time to get a move. If I was (IMO) a teacher and loads of people dropped out half way thru each class I'd feel really disheartened.

Did you miss the point that said harder moves first longer practice or did you just decide to diss my comments.

Again having a more simple move at the end of a class no one feels hard done by to have it dropped (well IMO of course)

[Andy McGregor]

Did you miss the point that said harder moves first longer practice or did you just decide to diss my comments.

Again having a more simple move at the end of a class no one feels hard done by to have it dropped (well IMO of course) :yeah:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Did you miss the point that said harder moves first longer practice or did you just decide to diss my comments.

? Im sure Martin got your point, he just stated his own opinion! Did you wake up on the wrong side of bed this morning ? :)

[Andy McGregor]

? Im sure Martin got your point, he just stated his own opinion! Did you wake up on the wrong side of bed this morning ? :)

Stop being so nice. It doesn't suit someone bent on World domination. If Trousers wants to get a bit of needle going regarding a particular subject I think we should let him. If you carry on like this you'll lose your nice blue crown and have to join the real world - or is this niceness part of a cunning plan to make us think you've changed into hippy :flower: on the trail of peace, love and harmony :waycool:

.. I've seen you wiggle and I'm not convinced :really:

[Northants Girly]

? Im sure Martin got your point, he just stated his own opinion! :yeah:
and thats exactly what he said right at the end too. :)


(All IMO, as ever)
He was just expressing an opinion and thats what we do on here ISN'T IT??

Start being nice or I'll snitch on you to Jivecat then you will both get
DOUBLE DETENTION :really:

[TheTramp]

When I'm teaching, I prefer to have the hardest move at the beginning of the routine, so that people do get more repetitions and more chance to get it right.

Also, if it's at the end, and you're trying to keep to time (as I always do :cough: ), there's not always enough time to go through the move as thoroughly as you like. Whereas, if it's at the beginning, you can take the time you need, and if it does mean that you drop the 4th move, it's no big deal.

I also don't always see the point of joining the back of the routine to the front in intermediates. Needed for beginners, sure, but if the first move is a 1st move variation of some kind (say), and the last move finishes with a left to right hand hold, then I don't see why intermediates need to learn how to cycle the routine. They can practise that on their own in freestyle if they want - or they really shouldn't be in the intermediate class :whistle: This can save a few minutes if I've run out of time.

[MartinHarper]

In classes we all move around and do not get chance to appreciate the finer points of ones lead or follow allowing us to better cope with more difficult moves we just get on with it with which ever poor sod gets us next.

I was thinking of when the teacher asks the class to "dance the whole routine through to music". I get a brand new partner, we can adapt a little during some easy move like a secret spin, and we're better prepared for the wizzy-whirly-droppy thing at the end of the routine.

There's also a confidence thing in starting off with a more achievable move, particularly for those of us on the lower end of a class's ability range.


harder moves first longer practice. [...] Having a more simple move at the end of a class no one feels hard done by to have it dropped.

I think these are very valuable points, and I don't disagree.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm going to suggest that if there's a 'classic' intermediate move it should go last. So, first teach a simple if unusual move to get things started. Then a new but not difficult intermediate move. Then the flashy one (with lean, dip, triple spin or whatever) and finish with an old 'classic' move.

The advantage of finishing with a move that with luck half the class already knows is that the more knowledgeable ladies can help the men who don't know it through the lead so it should be quicker to teach - and if it has to get left out because of time pressure then it's only half the class that's disadvantaged.

I wonder if any teachers have yet dared to include the Wurlitzer or Half-Windmill in their intermediate classes yet?

[Chef]

I wonder if any teachers have yet dared to include the Wurlitzer or Half-Windmill in their intermediate classes yet?

This might explain a lot. I started off my MJ with Katie Baxter of Rebel Roc some 5 years ago and I found it really tricky at the start. A quick look back at my notes from those classes (I am a scientist, and yes I do keep notes) reveal that the wurlitzer and abd the half windmill were taught as BEGINNER moves at that time. :what: :what:

The transistion from the beginners class to the intermediate class is often very difficult for dancers. So my vote is for

A) truncate the class to the designed time - any longer than that and the new intermediates have their brain fried and the older intermediate get itchy for freestyle time.

B) Don't demonstrate the class before hand as anything tricky will have the new intermediates running back to the beginners refresher class (or maybe just out the door).

C) First move of the class not too tricky so that by the time the second one (ie the tricky one) comes along the new intermediates feel "oh well I am here now I might as well stay and give it a try" and the older intermediates feel "at last something to get my teeth into".

As always, just my opinion.

Happy dancing

[jivecat]

DOUBLE DETENTION[/COLOR] :really:

Erm, Linda, I do occasionally read some of this forum stuff, you know.

Forgive & forget and all that. :kiss: :kiss:

[bobgadjet]

There's also a confidence thing in starting off with a more achievable move, particularly for those of us on the lower end of a class's ability range.


This gets my vote :yeah:

It IS a confidence thing, IMHO.

My vote would be.....
First move not toooooo complex, for that reason above,
Second move to get teeth into, and "catch" those who might have left, as at least they know the first move. Also it gets enuf repetition thru the rest of the lesson.
Third move to blend in with the first two, but not necessarily to follow on.
Forth move......leave it out if time is short, and thats a DEFINATE.

There is nothing worse than having to rush thru the last move, even if it's the 3rd move (maybe because the difficult one is not catching on).

OH yes there is..... and that's taking up much wanted freestyle, after all, what are the Taxi dancers for? Should they not be used for getting those "recent" intermediates thru something they are having difficulty with.
And where have the teachers gone later in the evening ?
Should they not be there TILL THE END OF THE NIGHT, or at least till 10pm, to show their moves to those who have paid their hard earned cash to learn more moves?

I remember a Lindy class some years back where I had to ask the teacher to go thru a move that he said "you should know if you are in this class". I reminded him, in front of his class, that he is being paid by me, and the other pupils, and if I want to go over a move that was badly taught in the lesson, then he should go over it again.
He tried to turn it back on me by asking the whole class if THEY wanted to go over it again and they ALL said yes. One even added "and this time do it so we can all understand it".

I think the only time a lesson should overrun would be in the case of a 'very' small class, where the lesson may form part of the whole evening, as freestyle may be less important than teaching the punters what they have come to the evening for.

If I went to a VERY small class, maybe one at a venue just starting up, then I would appreciate the teacher taking the time to use the evening as more of a "private" tuition evening.
To have a long freestyle period where there are not many people to change with would be worse than shortening the lesson just to keep to the time slot.

IMHO :grin:

[DavidY]

What are the Taxi dancers for? Should they not be used for getting those "recent" intermediates thru something they are having difficulty with.First and foremost I try and dance with beginners when I'm taxiing. There are often enough of those to keep me busy.

More to the point, when the intermediate class is on, I'm usually in a refresher class with beginners. I wouldn't be much help to a new intermediate unless I know what the moves were.

Even if I did know the moves, as a taxi I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to teach anything except possibly a small number of really basic intermediate moves - anything beyond that is what the teacher is for.

[bobgadjet]

First and foremost I try and dance with beginners when I'm taxiing. There are often enough of those to keep me busy.

More to the point, when the intermediate class is on, I'm usually in a refresher class with beginners. I wouldn't be much help to a new intermediate unless I know what the moves were.

Even if I did know the moves, as a taxi I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to teach anything except possibly a small number of really basic intermediate moves - anything beyond that is what the teacher is for.
Point taken and not to take anything away from the "working" :whistle: taxi dancers.

But, too often I have seen the teacher talking all night and not dancing, or being too aloof to dance with a mere new intermediate :grin:

I'll just stand back to avoid the flack :innocent:

[Magic Hans]

Tricky one, and one that will always have someone somewhere displeased.

Firstly - Agree with the general tone, finish on time as first priority.

Secondly, and more contentiously, do what was promised, even if some do sadly, get left behind. Although left behind, it is not, (IMO) a total loss. Chances are bits of every move will get picked up, if only by muscle memory. When it comes to doing it again, it'll be a little easier.

Maybe next week simpler moves can be planned, so keeping those that got left behind sweet.

Always difficult (I can imagine) trying to gauge the ability of a floor of dancers.

Ian

[bobgadjet]

Always difficult (I can imagine) trying to gauge the ability of a floor of dancers.

Ian
Difficult ?...............Almost impossible I would have thought.

[Trousers]

But, too often I have seen the teacher talking all night and not dancing, or being too aloof to dance with a mere new intermediate

there is only one MJ teacher i know that dances all night.
She ain't Ceroc

She is a fine dancer.

Andy mac i think knows her.

And she wears a really horrible green colour!!

and she only does three moves in her intermediate classes

People like her cos they see her working all night and she is there to help.

am i allowed to say RebelRoc in here . . . . . . . . oh blocks said it anyway

[El Salsero Gringo]

Just to set the record straight, I know many very committed Ceroc teachers who dance every number - with beginners, intermediate and better dancers - right to the end of the evening. That includes one teacher who insists everyone gets up for the last dance then takes them all down the pub afterwards.

Whether he buys the first round I can't say.

[Gadget]

there is only one MJ teacher i know that dances all night.
Only the one? I know of three... Lorna, Lisa and Franck. All Ceroc. And Trampy if you can count him as a teacher (he has been known to do the occasional workshop)

[bobgadjet]

Just to set the record straight, I know many very committed Ceroc teachers who dance every number - with beginners, intermediate and better dancers - right to the end of the evening. That includes one teacher who insists everyone gets up for the last dance then takes them all down the pub afterwards.

Whether he buys the first round I can't say.
Ah Ha

Now this could mean several things.......

Either.......he has a very small class / club / following
or............there are very few people left at the end of the evening because he has danced them off their feet
or............there are very few people left at the end of the evening because they are bored silly
or............he is extremely rich and DOES buy the first drink
or............he knows none of them are drinkers
or ...........he knows they all have to get home to relieve their babysitters
or............he has nobody at home to get back to
or............he is an insomniac and expects everybody else to be also
or............he is not so rich and is hoping they will all buy him a drink
or............he owns the pub
or............
well, i'm sure you can all come up with alternatives..... :grin:

[foxylady]

Ah Ha

Now this could mean several things.......

Either.......he has a very small class / club / following
or............there are very few people left at the end of the evening because he has danced them off their feet
or............there are very few people left at the end of the evening because they are bored silly
or............he is extremely rich and DOES buy the first drink
or............he knows none of them are drinkers
or ...........he knows they all have to get home to relieve their babysitters
or............he has nobody at home to get back to
or............he is an insomniac and expects everybody else to be also
or............he is not so rich and is hoping they will all buy him a drink
or............he owns the pub
or............
well, i'm sure you can all come up with alternatives..... :grin:

Actually its because he's a top guy ! As teaching goes he's a breath of fresh air, and has turned a central London venue around in only 4 weeks...
(I've heard his demo this week was rather cute too........ no down girl, bad foxy, slap hands, bad girl, behave..)

[Andy McGregor]

Point taken and not to take anything away from the "working" :whistle: taxi dancers.

But, too often I have seen the teacher talking all night and not dancing, or being too aloof to dance with a mere new intermediate :grin:

I'll just stand back to avoid the flack :innocent:

:yeah:

Mr Gadget you are my hero :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Well Foxy, I have heard that his Demo this week had been compared (most favourably) to a shiny new Mercedes sport coupe with twin turbos, padded (!) Connolly leather upholstery - and a sleek yet tastefully integrated spoiler at the rear. Not to mention the ultra-slick tyres.

Of course I couldn't comment, myself.


(BTW, is one allowed to cross-refer to one's own threads?)

[bobgadjet]

:yeah:

Mr Gadget you are my hero :flower:
:rofl:

[bigdjiver]

The lesson should be planned with "milestones", ie finish teaching move 1 after 5 mins, 2 after 13mins, 3 after 20 mins.

It is a dance class, people are there to learn. If there is a can't do / won't do move in the routine it should be at the end,so that people can drop out if need be. It is better that they learn two moves than none. It helps to make it easier to drop out if interleave move-on is used.

[bobgadjet]

It helps to make it easier to drop out if interleave move-on is used.
eerrrmmmmm

could you please explain this sentence ?

:innocent:

[foxylady]

It helps to make it easier to drop out if interleave move-on is used.

:yeah:

Why don't more CEROC teachers use this method of moving on. Once its explained to people it makes so much more sense than moving 20 women on at a time (requiring counting, which seems to be completely alien to some people...).
Is it actually against 'the rules' ?

Foxy

[bobgadjet]

:yeah:

Why don't more CEROC teachers use this method of moving on. Once its explained to people it makes so much more sense than moving 20 women on at a time (requiring counting, which seems to be completely alien to some people...).
Is it actually against 'the rules' ?

Foxy
There could be a number of reasons that people drop out, but if I were teaching a class and a good number were dropping out I would seriously question my teaching, or take another long look at the make up of the routine I had, or I had been told to do.

If it's not working, cut it out and make it work next week.

If a difficult move is put at the end, or too near the end of the lesson, everything that has gone before would have been a total loss.

It makes so much more sense to put the most difficult move second, as said so many times earflier in this thread, so that at least if it takes too long, at least it will be better retained, with the stuff afterwards being discarded so the freestyle can go ahead on time.

I keep an eye on my teachers, and the clock, and give a visual warning if the lesson is dragging, and it's then up to them if they want to cut it short.

[foxylady]

There could be a number of reasons that people drop out, but if I were teaching a class and a good number were dropping out I would seriously question my teaching, or take another long look at the make up of the routine I had, or I had been told to do.

Whilst interleave move-on does make it easier for people to drop out without causing chaos in the ensuing move-on, I was trying to make the point that interleave move-on can be a better way of 'moving on', especially with large numbers, than the traditional 'ceroc' approach. One often finds it used in Lindy classes, and I've come across it being used in other brands of MJ, but never in CEROC. Was just curious as to why ?

Foxy

[Lou]

I've come across it being used in other brands of MJ, but never in CEROC. Was just curious as to why ?
I've actually come across it at CerocTM Swindon, so it's not a blanket ban. ;)

[Robin]

Whilst interleave move-on does make it easier for people to drop out without causing chaos in the ensuing move-on, I was trying to make the point that interleave move-on can be a better way of 'moving on', especially with large numbers, than the traditional 'ceroc' approach. One often finds it used in Lindy classes, and I've come across it being used in other brands of MJ, but never in CEROC. Was just curious as to why ?

Foxy
Hmmm.... well it may have something to do with the fact that when you have a class of around 120 odd dancers over 4 rows, people are struggling not to bang into their neighbours let alone a dancer wating to be interleaved. We have tried this at our Finchley venue but found it was simply too crowded.

Methinks that its more to do with size of class / space available than whether or not Ceroc does it or not.

Going back on topic ... moves taught should depend on the teachers ability to gauge the level of dancer at the venue but as far as running over we have a compromise, which is to simply ask the floor - majority rule et al ! :wink:

[MartinHarper]

I took a Jango class, and happilly did the first half, which focused on style and technical aspects of the dance, and equally happilly dropped out for the second half, which focused on crazy-cool Tango moves that I wasn't capable of using. For me, this was the most valuable way to approach that particular class.

re "interleave move-on" - we've had a prior thread on this - Rotate or Scatter! (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3405)

[MartinHarper]

It makes so much more sense to put the most difficult move second, as said so many times earflier in this thread, so that at least if it takes too long, at least it will be better retained, with the stuff afterwards being discarded so the freestyle can go ahead on time.

I agree in a way. It would be a mistake to put the most valuable teaching towards the end of a class, because (as bob says), this teaching may have to be discarded if the class overruns.

I have to ask, though... is the most difficult move necessarilly the most valuable teaching? Sometimes I've felt that the most challenging move is the one I've gained the least from. On one occasion, I felt that the most useful part of the class was the warmup(!).

[bigdjiver]

Interleave move-on is placing the spare dancers between couples on the floor and moving on just one. It is much quicker if there are a lot of movers on. It can be a disaster on a crowded dance floor, or when teaching travelling moves, or moving on men, with some women dancing as men.

Moves that make people leave can be dips, lifts, jumps, UCP moves, complicated moves, or moves involving multiple spins.

I saw a concussion case where a dip was taught early in the routine, and people were allowed to join the class late. Neither of the pair involved had been there for that part of the lesson, but tried to do it anyway.

[Daisy Chain]

Whilst interleave move-on does make it easier for people to drop out without causing chaos in the ensuing move-on, I was trying to make the point that interleave move-on can be a better way of 'moving on',




I hate it, Hate it HATE IT! :blush:

I feel such a lemon waiting for my turn in the middle of the floor and object to paying full price for half a lesson. I'll get my coat...

Daisy

(A Flower with a Pet Hate)

[foxylady]

Just to set the record straight, I know many very committed Ceroc teachers who dance every number - with beginners, intermediate and better dancers - right to the end of the evening.

Indeed tonight our very own Simon R did just that at the Jive Bar (standing in for Bill Cooper - so it wasn't even a regular venue of his !). He did a fab job of working the floor and he stayed dancing until the end. It makes such a difference...

[under par]

Indeed tonight our very own Simon R did just that at the Jive Bar (standing in for Bill Cooper - so it wasn't even a regular venue of his !). He did a fab job of working the floor and he stayed dancing until the end. It makes such a difference...


Well done to Simon R continuing the good traditiuon that the likes of Mr Magregor have set for others on the South coast. Dance the night away with your punters.................. and watch them come back next week......and feel that bulge in your wallet grow.....seems really good sense to me. :yeah:

[Bill]

In Aberdeen Lorna and Lisa have always made a point of dancing with as many people as possible ( excpet when Lorna was heavily pregnant so had a few earlyish nights :grin: ).

They both also invite dancers - male and female - to ask them after the class for a dance or to go over any of the moves. They try hard to invite as many beginners as possible up for a dance before they 'escape'.

They also keep to time and when they think a class might over-run will simply drop a move or manage to run through a move quite quickly as Lisa did last night. Thinking she might over-run she thought about dropping the last move but as it wasn't especially difficult she got the class through on time and with 15 extra women having to move round.

And even allowing for the new year resolutions they must be doing soemthing right as numbers have increased and that's a few weeks now we've had around 100 on Tuesday and Wednesday and about 70 on Thursday. :D

[philsmove]

As normal we seem to have several topics going on a once :confused:

Would it be an ideal to start two new ones
interleaving,
and dropping out

or have these already been discussed in the past

[tsh]

B) Don't demonstrate the class before hand as anything tricky will have the new intermediates running back to the beginners refresher class (or maybe just out the door).


I don't classes where the routine is not demonstrated at the beginning. The demo helps me to see how the routine fits together, especially now that I reccognise a fair number of the parts of the moves. I find it also gives more of a sense of achievement at the end of the class (provided it's a routine worth learning). If there are people who are put off by it, they're probably not ready for the intermediate class.

Sean

[MartinHarper]

As normal we seem to have several topics going on a once :confused:

Would it be an ideal to start two new ones
interleaving,
and dropping out

or have these already been discussed in the past

We've had a prior thread on "interleaving" - Rotate or Scatter! (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3405)

[Gadget]

And Completing a dance lesson (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1626)

[Sparkles]

Indeed tonight our very own Simon R did just that at the Jive Bar (standing in for Bill Cooper - so it wasn't even a regular venue of his !). He did a fab job of working the floor and he stayed dancing until the end. It makes such a difference...

The thing about this is that even if you're full of doubt about your dancing and the teacher comes up to you, smiles, and says 'would you like to dance' you leave feeling like the queen bee! As Mr UP rightly says - how to get them coming back to classes again and again...
S. x