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Gus
26th-January-2005, 03:54 PM
In a vain attempt to get the Forum talking about dance rather than arguments
{ODA Mode ON}
Its about time that the 'standard' 500 moves were put in a book and made generally available. I KNOW that there are a couple of dance databases, BUT if a manual was widely available that covered the core 90% moves, it would give beginners and intermediates something to do on the (few) long dark nights when they aren't dnancing and it would weaken Ceroc's (tm) grip on the MJ dance scene. Thoughts?

{ODA Mode OFF}

under par
26th-January-2005, 04:12 PM
In a vain attempt to get the Forum talking about dance rather than arguments
{ODA Mode ON}
Its about time that the 'standard' 500 moves were put in a book and made generally available. I KNOW that there are a couple of dance databases, BUT if a manual was widely available that covered the core 90% moves, it would give beginners and intermediates something to do on the (few) long dark nights when they aren't dnancing and it would weaken Ceroc's (tm) grip on the MJ dance scene. Thoughts?

{ODA Mode OFF}

Sounds like a big job ................

but who knows might even be a money spinner eventually, what with t shirts, dvds, film rights in Hollywood and paperwights to go with the book and a new "tm trademark" :yeah:

Dreadful Scathe
26th-January-2005, 04:37 PM
In a vain attempt to get the Forum talking about dance rather than arguments

You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you...etc.. ;)



Its about time that the 'standard' 500 moves were put in a book and made generally available. I KNOW that there are a couple of dance databases, BUT if a manual was widely available that covered the core 90% moves, it would give beginners and intermediates something to do on the (few) long dark nights when they aren't dnancing and it would weaken Ceroc's (tm) grip on the MJ dance scene. Thoughts?

I'd agree totally, its a great idea, but Ceroc are certainly unlikely to produce something that can be used as an excuse to skip classes (or steal moves on a bigger scale). Not that a book is in any way the same as quality teaching of course. Assuming that is a reason that Ceroc have never done this before - I think would be doing themselves a big disservice to think this way, dancing is about a lot more than just learning moves by rote. You can guarantee at Ceroc you get a decent, predictable quality learning experience.

Maybe someone else will produce a book though. A smurf book of dance moves anyone ? :) I specialise in the paniced 'what the hell am i going to do next move' :)

Andy McGregor
26th-January-2005, 04:40 PM
[i]and it would weaken Ceroc's (tm) grip on the MJ dance scene. Thoughts?

{ODA Mode OFF}

This assumes that we need something to weaken Ceroc's grip on the MJ scene :whistle:

IMHO there's a great opportunity to produce a part-work magazine that builds up week by week into this fab book. Any suggestions for the free gift with the first issue?

p.s. Great idea Gus :worthy:

Lou
26th-January-2005, 04:52 PM
IMHO there's a great opportunity to produce a part-work magazine that builds up week by week into this fab book. Any suggestions for the free gift with the first issue?
:rofl:

Or.... CerocTM For Dummies, perhaps?

Zebra Woman
26th-January-2005, 04:55 PM
I would have thought a DVD (or several) would be a better way of depicting /teaching moves. I find those written down move descriptions quite perplexing.

:sick:

ElaineB
26th-January-2005, 05:02 PM
This assumes that we need something to weaken Ceroc's grip on the MJ scene :whistle:

IMHO there's a great opportunity to produce a part-work magazine that builds up week by week into this fab book. Any suggestions for the free gift with the first issue?

p.s. Great idea Gus :worthy:

Yup, a free birth certificate validating the holder as being under 30.......... :whistle: :rofl:

Elaine

Gus
26th-January-2005, 05:08 PM
Lets put it this way, Jiveaholics has most of the moves in a basic format. There are plenty of ex-CTA teachers who have copies of the Ceroc manual (not me unfortunately) but MoJive and Blitz instructors will all have their own version of the Bible. Are you telling me that no one has thought of just slamming about 300/500 moves down on DVD and attaching the notes. How much wouldJo Public pay.

Thinking about it ... reckon I could put 100 moves down on video in 1 day. Anyonone want to quote for how much Jo public would pay for that Anyone want to make me an offer? :cool:

Clive Long
26th-January-2005, 05:20 PM
Lets put it this way, Jiveaholics has most of the moves in a basic format. There are plenty of ex-CTA teachers who have copies of the Ceroc manual (not me unfortunately) but MoJive and Blitz instructors will all have their own version of the Bible. Are you telling me that no one has thought of just slamming about 300/500 moves down on DVD and attaching the notes. How much wouldJo Public pay.



I would have thought a DVD (or several) would be a better way of depicting /teaching moves. I find those written down move descriptions quite perplexing.

:yeah:

Thinking about it ... reckon I could put 100 moves down on video in 1 day. Anyonone want to quote for how much Jo public would pay for that Anyone want to make me an offer? :cool:

One guideline for such a DVD is the Camber DVDs sell for £25. I have both for the times I have been there.

Camber DVDs are an invaluable reference for me.

The "Ceroc(TM) Basics" videos (or whatever they are called) go for £15 and contain about 16 (??) moves.

A good index on the DVD would be invaluable to search the planned hundreds of moves. Speculating idly I'd like to be able to see "shots" from different angles (e.g. looking down on heads (not mine) ) to show the positioning of feet and bodies.

I would guess you think you could film a lot in a day but don't underestimate the post-production work to produce the finished "film" Maybe track down the guy who does the Camber DVD to discuss.

Clive

Minnie M
26th-January-2005, 05:31 PM
Maybe someone else will produce a book though.....

or a monthly mag with moves / tips and discounts to lessons etc. :yeah: I can see it now :-

Issue 1 - special price of £2.99 comes with one Black and White Right shoe size 8

Issue 2 - B & W left shoe
and so on.............

(shoes idea is an example only)

Chef
26th-January-2005, 05:34 PM
When I realised that my notes of the lessons that I had attended were really perplexing when read 3 months later I started putting them onto a camcorder tape just after the lesson. This was rough and ready but a great aid to memory. Invaluable way to stop yourself relying on a small number of moves that work with everybody and thereby finding that you are even boring yourself.

I agree with Zebra Woman here. A visual referance source (DVDs or whatever) would be great. DVDs and a book would be a fantastic combination. Make the book in computer readable format and well heeled dancers will be taking laptops to venues with them.

I once turned my card index system of dance moves into a video tape just so that I could have something to jog my menory. Worked really well. I have just bought a portable DVD player so that I could do the same thing with the DVDs from weekenders.

This is a project that is just aching to be done. I think it will be a great aid to memory but will never replace good quality teaching.

It would really be useful to the teachers if a student could come and say "could I have your help with move No 378" instead of "I am having a bit of trouble with that baskety twirly block thing that you taught two or three months ago".

How much would I pay? Very difficult question. At a very good price I would buy my own copy. At a very high price I would imagine that the DVD burners and photocopiers of the country would get a workout.

My gut feel is that about £80-90 for the whole lot wouldn't have people running for the hills.

Gus
26th-January-2005, 05:47 PM
I agree with Zebra Woman here. A visual referance source (DVDs or whatever) would be great. DVDs and a book would be a fantastic combination. Make the book in computer readable format and well heeled dancers will be taking laptops to venues with them.

How much would I pay? Very difficult question. At a very good price I would buy my own copy. At a very high price I would imagine that the DVD burners and photocopiers of the country would get a workout.
Wel ... I agree. Just made a few calls and started the ball rolling. who knows ... could have volume one out by summer ... or maybe not. Who wants to be the big boys wont be too keen! :sick:

johnthehappyguy
26th-January-2005, 10:02 PM
The www.jiveoholics.org.uk website provides a good description, and some animation for lots of different moves.

It is very good value - especially when all of the proceeds go to charity. :waycool:

The site is well worth a visit, with much useful stuff available on it for free.

:cheers:

johnthehappyguy :nice:

Lou
26th-January-2005, 10:06 PM
Anyone want to make me an offer? :cool:
Tuppence Hapenny!

RogerR
26th-January-2005, 10:31 PM
The codification of Le Roc as a UKA approved dance style was a problematic experience for those involved as modern jive ceased to be a street dance with local variants and evolution, and became Le Roc the fixed syllabus studio dance, steps as described in the official literature. This would happen if 500 or so moves were codified on video for local or national promulgation. Who is going to take editorial responsibility for selecting the content and checking the validity of each snippet.

The only person with the practical production experience is Christine Keeble.

The problem with price and value and cost will not have a perfect solution. But if the cost is perceived as high then a DVD only takes 10 minutes to pirate, My local computer fair has 1-1 and 1-7 cd and dvd copiers on sale. Has anyone a copy of Andy Galloway's book ca 1988

Note also that all the participants in the How To Jive video were banned from ceroc for contravening their membership terms. Why do you think Nikki Haslam is in Australia.

bigdjiver
26th-January-2005, 11:45 PM
A comphrehensive DVD of Ceroc moves may contravene copyright. I would suggest that anyone planning this ask Mike Ellard first.

Another difficulty is that there is a constant state of evolution going on. Moves are changed, dropped, introduced.

jiveoholic
27th-January-2005, 01:13 AM
A comphrehensive DVD of Ceroc moves may contravene copyright. I would suggest that anyone planning this ask Mike Ellard first.

A sensiblewarning...however, the title of this thread is about "modern Jive" moves....who brought Ceroc into it?

Modern Jive is to Ceroc like a vacuum cleaner is to a Hoover!

Copyright is a complex thing, but it is practically impossible to copyright moves themselves as the rules say that you can only do this if you add something NEW and so many of them are common to other dances, particularly Swing, but with different timing. Now the naming may be a different problem....I avoid using others' naming conventions unless it is widely accepted.

I have considered presenting the Jiveoholics Anonymous database as a nice "Christmas edition" book (nothing like a nice book to cuddle in bed!), but I would have to ensure it was correct and finished. Already someone changed the yoyo when I was not looking! Feels like far too much work and it is so specialist and would probably cost over £20 so return would be somewhat less than Harry Potter!

spindr
27th-January-2005, 01:29 AM
Well, I have two "books" related to Modern Jive (there may be others): these are:


The Dance Manual. Andy Galloway. Lyndenhurst Ltd, 38 Ashley Road, London, N19 3AF, 1988.
Learn To Dance Modern Jive. Robert Austin and Claire Hilliard. Sigma Leisure, Sigma Press, 1 South Oak Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 6AR, 1998. ISBN 1850586020 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1850586020).

The first is a soft-cover A4 style 48 page pamphlet (incidentally published before the Ceroc trademark was awarded - as far as I can tell), the second a professional book.

As to an online version -- check out the PDF download at AfterFive, see http://www.afterfive.co.uk/downloads.html (at the moment it's about 300+ pages, with 150 moves). You can download the source for this and edit/publish/sell it yourself (as long as you make it available under the same terms and conditions), or if that's too complicated ask me nicely :)

If you have comments, then you can add them on-line at http://www.afterfive.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php.

SpinDr.

Andy McGregor
27th-January-2005, 01:41 AM
A comphrehensive DVD of Ceroc moves may contravene copyright. I would suggest that anyone planning this ask Mike Ellard first.


Just call them Modern Jive moves and you don't contravene Ceroc's Trademark. And you can't copyright a body position or a transition between body positions - although you can copyright a written descripion of those moves. The answer is simple, use a different written description. Although it might be difficult to use a different description of the Ceroc moves when Ceroc don't let people outside the CTA see their manual. I suppose your defence lawyer could claim coincidence if your written descripion was similar to a private, in-house, document :whistle:

Gus
27th-January-2005, 01:57 AM
A comphrehensive DVD of Ceroc moves may contravene copyright. I would suggest that anyone planning this ask Mike Ellard first.
SORRY who died and make Ceroc God over all Dance and its minions :angry: :angry: Have you any ideas where many of 'Ceroc' moves came from?? ... they were taken left right and centre. You CANT own a dance moves (Ceroc tried and failed with that already). Lets look at facts ... we are trying to open up dance moves to more dancers ... moves which are already in the public domain. Who says Ceroc(tm) has all the moves ... don’t you think its conceivable that Blitz, LeRoc, MoJive have moves in their syllabus that Ceroc(tm) don’t have?

Anyone else in a parallel dimension that thinks I have to get Ceroc permission to produce a Modern Jive DVD??? :sick:

For those of you who dont read subtitles I'm a bit hacked off that anyone still believes that ceroc own the dance or even created it

Gadget
27th-January-2005, 02:06 AM
Isn't this all pandering to the "moves monster" that all the recent improvers workshops were trying to eliminate?
What happened to the "It's not about the moves, but how you execute them" attitude?

As for manuals and lists of 'moves', I think that it would be better for people to work with what they have and learn how the basics can be ammended, disected and re-assembled.
I could come up with ten variations on any beginner move following ten simple methods of changing a move; from swapping hands, to changing who moves, to reversing,...Learning this compared to learning a "double pretzel back-hander teapot swizzle with dip", etc. is far more constructive IMHO.

If a definitive 'list' is published, are there not pitfalls of people getting trapped into thinking that the moves must be performed as per the book? Limiting creatvity and musical interpritation within the dance?

Andy McGregor
27th-January-2005, 02:07 AM
For those of you who dont read subtitles I'm a bit hacked off that anyone still believes that ceroc own the dance or even created it
Besides, who'd want to spend a night in a smoky atmosphere* bouncing their hand up and down to every beat? :devil:

.. CIRCLE TO THE LEFT AND STEP BACK!

Have they banned smoking in Ceroc venues yet?

*applies in many Ceroc venues outside Scotland.

Gus
27th-January-2005, 02:18 AM
Isn't this all pandering to the "moves monster" that all the recent improvers workshops were trying to eliminate?
What happened to the "It's not about the moves, but how you execute them" attitude? Nothing has changed for that target market ... which is at best 10% of the total number of dancers.


I could come up with ten variations on any beginner move following ten simple methods of changing a move; from swapping hands, to changing who moves, to reversing,...Learning this compared to learning a "double pretzel back-hander teapot swizzle with dip", etc. is far more constructive IMHO.And this is relevant how? The aim of the DVD is a reference source to act as an aide memoire. I'm supposed to know over 500 moves ... I've been trained to teach them, got the notes ... but its a major pain trying to remeber them without any video source.


If a definitive 'list' is published, are there not pitfalls of people getting trapped into thinking that the moves must be performed as per the book? Limiting creatvity and musical interpritation within the dance?No no no. It helps most dancers to see the way the basic move is done ... THEN they can add to and develop it. Not all dancers are gifted or want to do major develoment on a move. I for one would love to be able to remember more than 30 moves :sick:

Gadget
27th-January-2005, 02:58 AM
Nothing has changed for that target market ... which is at best 10% of the total number of dancers.
Shouldn't we be trying to increase this market rather than reduce it? As has beeen pointed out, there are several beginners & move references and guides out there; to make yours easier to find, cheaper, of a better quality or otherwise more 'consumer worthy' than theirs would involve a lot of marketing. However if you looked into a neich market like the improvers, then there are very few resources available.


And this is relevant how? The aim of the DVD is a reference source to act as an aide memoire. I'm supposed to know over 500 moves ... I've been trained to teach them, got the notes ... but its a major pain trying to remeber them without any video source.
If it's a form of 'flash-card', then yes; a good idea,:clap: but not necissary to go into too mutch detail and you could have thousands of moves on there. If you want it as a teaching/learning resource, then you would want multiple camera angles, detailed notes, highlighted areas, and a couple of options on the same move. With this amount of detail, I would say lots more work and only about 20-50 could be done per disk. And it would be expensive.


No no no. It helps most dancers to see the way the basic move is done ... THEN they can add to and develop it. Not all dancers are gifted or want to do major develoment on a move. I for one would love to be able to remember more than 30 moves :sick:
Teaching does this, an aide memoire does not. Remembering more than 30 moves? I can almost remember the names of the basic moves {almost...:rolleyes:} I can remember 'key words' like "teapot", and sometimes even the movement that goes with it! However I remember about two moves. And that's after a class!!. I don't dance only two moves throught a night.
That's my point - moves and names of moves do not do anything appart from encourage people to slip into unthinking repetition. It's like sitting exams - you can pass an exam by regurgitating text books. However passing exams and knowing about the subject are two seperate entities. Don't you want to see dancers dancing on their own without spitting out text book passages?

bigdjiver
27th-January-2005, 02:59 AM
... I for one would love to be able to remember more than 30 moves :sick: I can, but only on the way home ... :tears:

HeatherX
27th-January-2005, 06:40 PM
Interesting discussion. I have spent all my professional life in the media - all types - and have directed videos and written books (on nothing to do with MJ!) and I know something about marketing.

A book (e-book or paper) or a video, or a DVD, would be a labour of love (is a labour of love in the case of the fairly comprehensive but not user friendly e-book mentioned above). There is nothing wrong with labours of love, but there is no money in them. There would definitely be no money in a partwork on MJ, or partner dance, or dance - this would bleed money and could only ever be a hobby for a rich person to throw their cash at.

I like the animations on jiveaholics, and one of the other smaller MJ teaching orgs has video clips on the web.

Uploading DVD clips onto a website would seem to be a better way to go. But it would still be a labour of love!

Will
27th-January-2005, 07:00 PM
For those of you who dont read subtitles I'm a bit hacked off that anyone still believes that ceroc own the dance or even created it
I think you have to give Ceroc a fair amount of credit for creating the dance surely? They certainly didn't invent jive, but they were the first to strip out set footwork and create the new adaptation that is now known as ceroc or modern jive. Of course it is constantly evolving and I think that anyone who does the dance can take some credit for that.

As for owning a dance, I would have thought that you can own a choreography, but not a dance form. N'est pas?

Gus
27th-January-2005, 07:06 PM
As for owning a dance, I would have thought that you can own a choreography, but not a dance form. N'est pas?
Mais non :whistle:

spindr
27th-January-2005, 07:11 PM
Interesting discussion. I have spent all my professional life in the media - all types - and have directed videos and written books (on nothing to do with MJ!) and I know something about marketing.
Great!


A book (e-book or paper) or a video, or a DVD, would be a labour of love (is a labour of love in the case of the fairly comprehensive but not user friendly e-book mentioned above).
Hmmm, sorry you didn't find it friendly -- comments to improve it always greatly appreciated :)

One problem is that to keep a PDF down to a reasonable downloadable size for dialup you can't include hundreds of pictures, which is a shame.


There is nothing wrong with labours of love, but there is no money in them.
True.


There would definitely be no money in a partwork on MJ, or partner dance, or dance - this would bleed money and could only ever be a hobby for a rich person to throw their cash at.
Well, there is the communal approach, see below.


I like the animations on jiveaholics, and one of the other smaller MJ teaching orgs has video clips on the web.

Uploading DVD clips onto a website would seem to be a better way to go. But it would still be a labour of love!
I have wondered in the past whether there might be some mileage in distributing promotional CD's at events -- rather than leaflets. If an organisation wanted to include it's details, then they could either help to part sponsor production, or perhaps donate some content.

And of course, there's nothing to stop everyone simply "chipping-in" their favourite move, either as a description or a video, etc. Anyone that contributes gets a licence to reuse the content as they see fit. If there were to be enough support, I'm sure that a suitable venue / number of cameras could be located :-)

SpinDr.

HeatherX
27th-January-2005, 07:16 PM
Didn't mean to impugn the book! It's a tour de force, but e-books are inherently user-unfriendly to my mind. I thought you could do with a good editor, but then, most writers of anything need a good editor!

spindr
27th-January-2005, 07:22 PM
Didn't mean to impugn the book!
Didn't think you did :)


It's a tour de force, but e-books are inherently user-unfriendly to my mind. I thought you could do with a good editor, but then, most writers of anything need a good editor!
Agree it definitely needs editing.

SpinDr.

herrflick
28th-January-2005, 01:15 PM
Well, I have two "books" related to Modern Jive (there may be others): these are:


The Dance Manual. Andy Galloway. Lyndenhurst Ltd, 38 Ashley Road, London, N19 3AF, 1988.
Learn To Dance Modern Jive. Robert Austin and Claire Hilliard. Sigma Leisure, Sigma Press, 1 South Oak Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 6AR, 1998. ISBN 1850586020 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1850586020).

The first is a soft-cover A4 style 48 page pamphlet (incidentally published before the Ceroc trademark was awarded - as far as I can tell), the second a professional book.

As to an online version -- check out the PDF download at AfterFive, see http://www.afterfive.co.uk/downloads.html (at the moment it's about 300+ pages, with 150 moves). You can download the source for this and edit/publish/sell it yourself (as long as you make it available under the same terms and conditions), or if that's too complicated ask me nicely :)

If you have comments, then you can add them on-line at http://www.afterfive.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php.

SpinDr.


Well, I have two "books" related to Modern Jive (there may be others):

indeed there is my book I wrote a few years ago : The unofficial Ceroc Reflections and Observations Book. I still have copies... :grin:

Ste
28th-January-2005, 02:35 PM
[QUOTE=Gus]You CANT own a dance moves (Ceroc tried and failed with that already).QUOTE]

Can someone tell me more about when and how Ceroc tried and failed to copyright the moves.

I heard rumours that James Cronin watched people and wrote down their moves. So I guess in moral terms any purported ownership of a move would be questionable. But could you copyright the move if you tagged it to a specific name like" Move 1233"?

However I assume that with a more complex piece of work, ownership could be established more easily like a showcase?

Gadget
28th-January-2005, 03:05 PM
I think that if a move is truley unique (<-doubtfull), then it could be copyrighted/trademarked. However you would have to prove it:
A move is a construct of movements, like a word is made up of letters - these words/moves are a common language that all MJ holds. They are the adjectives; the descriptors used by dancers in their translation of music.
A new word/move could be created, then through common useage introduced into the dictionary - if that move was 'branded', then it would be like using the term Coke to discribe any cola: companies would have to name it something slightly different (or change it) unless they either wanted to promote their rival or risk getting fined/sued/slapped...

In the same way, sentances of moves (micro routines) are hard to tag as unique, but lyrics, poetry and short storys (which may contain some common dance phrases and sentaces) are relativly easy to identify.

El Salsero Gringo
28th-January-2005, 06:25 PM
As far as I am aware, the copyright thing works like this:

Copyright can exist in the artistic expression of an idea only. A move is not the expression of an idea, as far as I can see - it's the idea itself.

If you took the Ceroc teaching scripts, written descriptions of moves, or diagrams, then you would be breaching a copyright and could find yourself the subject of a claim for damages.

As far as the moves themselves go however - I think they're anybody's.

If anyone knows of any case law in this specific area, please post.

Gus
28th-January-2005, 07:52 PM
As far as the moves themselves go however - I think they're anybody's.The interesting point is that it seems a number of Ceroc Manuals have fallen into 'enemy' hands. If one was to be offered on eBay how much would you offer for it ... and could Ceroc stop the auction from taking place? I must admit that though I could do with a copy myself, I'm not sure that it would be ethical to copy that work and distribute it, legal rights or no.

Andy McGregor
28th-January-2005, 08:00 PM
I think that if a move is truley unique (<-doubtfull), then it could be copyrighted/trademarked.
This is, of course, complete speculation. Consider enforcement of this supposed right of ownership of a move. Do some kind of move police burst onto the dance floor and take you away in handcuffs because you did a Ceroc move at a non-Ceroc venue?

You might as well say you've found a new and interesting way to stand at bus stops - but you have to pay a licence fee before you can stand that particular way :confused:

El Salsero Gringo
28th-January-2005, 09:18 PM
Gus,

Ethical or not, it would be unlawful to copy the manual (other than restricted portions for the purposes of academic research, parody or other 'fair use' exemptions) unless you had the permission of the copyright owner. If you were to copy it then the copyright owner could pursue you for damages and for an injuction to prevent you doing it again. If you gave the copy away - and it's not (as in this case) a publication that's available for purchase by the public - then it's difficult to see what damage Ceroc could allege you had done them by distributing such a copy.

As to your other question - about the right of anyone to stop you from buying such a manual on Ebay - it depends on the circumstances under which the person who 'holds' the manual came by it. If it was stolen - by them or anyone else - then they have no title to it and consequently are not entitled to sell it. If you bought it under those circumstances then you would have no title to it either and could be forced to return it. Your remedy to recover the price you falsely paid would be with the erstwhile vendor, not with Ceroc. Furthermore, if you knew or should have reasonably known that it was stolen then you would be committing a criminal offence by purchasing it.

If, however, the person selling the manual has title to it (say it was given to them by Ceroc, without it being made clear that it was on loan or had to be returned) then there's nothing in law Ceroc can do to stop it being sold to you.

By the way, if anyone qualified in law wants to jump in and correct me here on any of these points, please go ahead.

Further: all this legal theorising is all very well, but none of it matters two hoots unless and until you come up in court. You'd have to judge the likelihood of Ceroc going that far, whether you'd have the resources and will to defend the action, and what the likely outcome would be.

And to clear up a couple of misconceptions: moves aren't trademarks and can't be protected as such. Nor can they be patented.

jiveoholic
29th-January-2005, 12:44 AM
It seems to me that two things are getting confused: the move and the representation of a move. It appears that moves are unlikely to be copyrightable, but the representations certainly are. Copying the ceroc book is wrong, as is copying my "stickmen"!

El Salsero Gringo
29th-January-2005, 01:31 AM
I think I'd agree with that. Thinking on a bit further, I believe a copyright also subsists in the collection of moves in the manual. If you simply transcribed every single move in a manual into your own format and diagrams you would have created a derivative work for which you would still need the copyright owner's permission.

Is this discussion getting too esoteric now?

Andy McGregor
29th-January-2005, 02:11 AM
I think I'd agree with that. Thinking on a bit further, I believe a copyright also subsists in the collection of moves in the manual. If you simply transcribed every single move in a manual into your own format and diagrams you would have created a derivative work for which you would still need the copyright owner's permission.

Is this discussion getting too esoteric now?

Of course, you could produce a work that lists moves and describes how to do them without reference to this Ceroc bible we hear so much about. To say that you can't describe moves because it's already been done would be like saying you can't write a cook book that has a recepie for steak and kidney pie because somebody has already done that in an earlier book.

bigdjiver
29th-January-2005, 12:57 PM
Of course, you could produce a work that lists moves and describes how to do them without reference to this Ceroc bible we hear so much about. To say that you can't describe moves because it's already been done would be like saying you can't write a cook book that has a recepie for steak and kidney pie because somebody has already done that in an earlier book.I believe that If you print the recipe for Mrs Muggles steak and kidney pie which is the same as Mrs Muggles published unique recipe, you have infringed her copyright. Some people invest considerable effort into developing new recipes for traditional dishes, a bit more of this and a bit less of that can make a considerable difference.

The intellectual property lies in collecting the moves and giving them names, not in the moves themselves. There has been a hell of a lot of work done by the Ceroc organisation compiling their book, and it deserves protection. Only a court case would decide, and it is possible that only the lawyers would benefit from that.

MartinHarper
29th-January-2005, 01:31 PM
And to clear up a couple of misconceptions: moves aren't trademarks and can't be protected as such.

Certainly trademarks are not the same as copyright. That said, I suspect it would be possible to trademark a move or move fragment, if it was essentially unique to one company, was a dominant theme in the way that company taught dance, was heavily used in marketing the company and its dance style, and so forth. I can't think of anything in MJ/Ceroc that would apply to, though.

Paul F
29th-January-2005, 01:37 PM
I have absolutely no idea about copyright or anything like that. The only concern i have for doing this is that people will, inevitably, decide they are above their true ability.
I cant see any replacement for a well trained and well educated teacher. By providing people with an instant hit of information will lead to intermediate and advanced classes full of people who 'know all the moves'.
Suggesting that its just a reference book is , im afraid, a bit off the mark.
I dont think it will affect class numbers etc but it will impact on all MJ organisers in, what i fear, will be a negative way.

I used to wonder why there are so many dvds out there about ballroom dancing but 95% of them (if not all) were beginner dvd's.
Its only after doing ballroom for some time that i realised what the classes would be like if someone were to create a dvd with inter/adv patterns on it. Chaos :eek:
<my toes are hurting just thinking about it> :)

Gus
29th-January-2005, 01:43 PM
I used to wonder why there are so many dvds out there about ballroom dancing but 95% of them (if not all) were beginner dvd's.
Its only after doing ballroom for some time that i realised what the classes would be like if someone were to create a dvd with inter/adv patterns on it. Chaos :eek:
<my toes are hurting just thinking about it> :)Like it or not there are hordes of dancers out there at the moment who are learning new moves from vids of the Weekenders and the like. Many of these moves are not clearly broken down and, due to the nature of the video, they are not intedned to teach the moves, just to act as an aide memoire. This has not stopped many trying to learn these moves from scratch.

AFAIK there are only 2 MJ videos that teach at an inetermediate+ level ... Amir's Jango and Jump'n'Jive's 'Advanced Jive' Given that the genie has been out of the bottle for a long time, surely there is a place for well structured 'teaching' notes. The herberts that think that they can still just teach themselves and dont need a teacher will carry on anyway ... but at least this way they make have a chance of getting the moves approximately correct.

Paul F
29th-January-2005, 01:53 PM
Like it or not there are hordes of dancers out there at the moment who are learning new moves from vids of the Weekenders and the like. Many of these moves are not clearly broken down and, due to the nature of the video, they are not intedned to teach the moves, just to act as an aide memoire. This has not stopped many trying to learn these moves from scratch.
.

Definately agree.
My only concern is that releasing an 'educational dvd' (as opposed to a weekender) containig hundreds of moves might cause many saw limbs :nice:

David Franklin
29th-January-2005, 01:57 PM
Definately agree.
My only concern is that releasing an 'educational dvd' (as opposed to a weekender) containig hundreds of moves might cause many saw limbs :nice:I know where you're coming from, but I don't think it would go so far as to require amputations... :wink:

Dave

bigdjiver
29th-January-2005, 03:48 PM
The whole history of dance involves people watching other people and trying to imitate, improve upon and personalise what they see. It also involves people trying to pass on what they know. Obviously teaching comes best from expert teachers, but books, films, videos and watching live performances and tips from friends and just playing with the dance and making mistakes are all learning routes too, provided unacceptable risks are not taken.

Paul F
29th-January-2005, 04:46 PM
The whole history of dance involves people watching other people and trying to imitate, improve upon and personalise what they see. It also involves people trying to pass on what they know. Obviously teaching comes best from expert teachers, but books, films, videos and watching live performances and tips from friends and just playing with the dance and making mistakes are all learning routes too, provided unacceptable risks are not taken.

I see where you're coming from but I think its the responsibility of those who pass on information (teachers, dvd actors etc)to minimise and control the risk as much as possible. By publishing a dvd such as the one proposed here with such a vast amount of moves which will have to span multiple abilities is, IMO, just going to accelarate the risk to an unsafe level.

You have to try and convince people to walk before they can run. Some will undoubtedly try and hit the ground (no pun intended :) ) running but we must try and minimise this for the safety of others.

jiveoholic
29th-January-2005, 06:16 PM
I see where you're coming from but I think its the responsibility of those who pass on information (teachers, dvd actors etc)to minimise and control the risk as much as possible. By publishing a dvd such as the one proposed here with such a vast amount of moves which will have to span multiple abilities is, IMO, just going to accelarate the risk to an unsafe level.

You have to try and convince people to walk before they can run. Some will undoubtedly try and hit the ground (no pun intended :) ) running but we must try and minimise this for the safety of others.
Hmmm..the genie is out, me thinks. Are there no books on judo, because it might be dangerous? How about skiing? Rifle shooting? Perhaps it is better to have legitimate books from those who understand the dangers than a black market info exchange from those who do not?

I agree with your concern about the danger, but once the genie is out, what is the best policy then?

alex
29th-January-2005, 06:51 PM
I think its the responsibility of those who pass on information (teachers, dvd actors etc)to minimise and control the risk as much as possible.You could always preface the book with the standard safety information given out in a typical MJ class (Ceroc or independent). That would take all of one sentence.

jiveoholic
29th-January-2005, 06:57 PM
You could always preface the book with the standard safety information given out in a typical MJ class (Ceroc or independent). That would take all of one sentence.

I make sure that print-outs of moves have safety advice appropriate for the move at the head - like having different speed limits rather than the usual 5mph you get when they have resurfaced a road!

Paul F
29th-January-2005, 09:11 PM
Hmmm..the genie is out, me thinks. Are there no books on judo, because it might be dangerous? How about skiing? Rifle shooting? Perhaps it is better to have legitimate books from those who understand the dangers than a black market info exchange from those who do not?

I agree with your concern about the danger, but once the genie is out, what is the best policy then?

I would consider the risks and dangers between differing activities to warrant their individual considerations - unless you want to practice shooting on another paying member of the public :)

Im really only questioning the idea of a dvd. Im not saying that some people wont benefit from it but i just think it will create a new wave of self-taught 'advanced' dancers.

I see the jiveoholic website to be different than a dvd. Im imagining that people will be more willing , whether rightly or wrongly, to grab their partner and work through the challenging moves when they are on dvd rather than written down/on the www (not in video form).

It all comes down to the fact that people will believe they can do all of these moves. They may well be able to with the partner they practice with. Thats dangerous IMO.

I have used many dvds before but only for basic elements of each dance style. I wouldnt consider practising advanced moves at home then trying it out on the general public no matter how good the instructor on the dvd was. If people wanted to practice at home then find a suitable environment with a teacher perhaps then great but unfortunately thats not always going to happen.

I understand what you mean when you say the genie is out of the bag. What i propose is minimizing the danger element by reducing temptation.
Unfortunately i think it will happen eventually but i would just prefer it not too.

David Franklin
29th-January-2005, 11:22 PM
I wouldnt consider practising advanced moves at home then trying it out on the general public no matter how good the instructor on the dvd was.Um - why not? :confused: Some moves might be problematic (and I would expect a teacher like yourself to be able to work out which they were), but I'd expect a lot to be usable. Unless, of course, you're equating 'advanced' with drops and aerials... (I'm never really sure what an 'advanced' move is, anyhow...)

Dave

MartinHarper
30th-January-2005, 10:57 AM
DVD: Pause. Rewind. Slow motion. Maybe even zoom.
Teacher: Barely visible. Can't tell if they have feet, let alone what footwork they're using.

DVD: I can take it at my own pace. I can go over the move as many times as I like.
Teacher:They will go at the speed best suited to the average ability of the hundred or so people in the class. If I manage to catch them after a lesson, they might go over it one more time in about five minutes.

bigdjiver
30th-January-2005, 06:16 PM
DVD: Pause. Rewind. Slow motion. Maybe even zoom.
Teacher: Barely visible. Can't tell if they have feet, let alone what footwork they're using.

DVD: I can take it at my own pace. I can go over the move as many times as I like.
Teacher:They will go at the speed best suited to the average ability of the hundred or so people in the class. If I manage to catch them after a lesson, they might go over it one more time in about five minutes.and can have the move from different angles, and have close-ups, and could have the move demonstrated by different couples with different physiques. The potential is there to do the job very well. I doubt it will happen like that. I would love to have a crack at at doing it, although I am sure there are hundreds more qualified. Dream on ...

Paul
30th-January-2005, 07:21 PM
Everyone has a different way of learning. For me, there is no subsititute for the classes, also great fun, but it would definitely be a help to have a reference dvd to recap on the latest moves learned. My ceroc grey cells do not seem to be fully active yet !!!

Paul F
30th-January-2005, 07:24 PM
Im sure most of us on here will benefit from it to some degree but the point i am trying to make is that it wont just be the seasoned dancers who will try the advanced moves.

Some people genuinely struggle with dancing in general. The problem is they will still try the advanced moves if presented to them in one big serving. They will not go for feedback to a teacher and will take these straight onto the social dancefloor.

The point about advanced classes and that the teacher has to deal with many many people is valid and is why there has been so much discussion whether or not they should exist. We have to remember that this thread started by suggesting ALL moves should be incorporated. The manual deals with many 'high risk' moves.

One of my biggest concerns is safety. Arming the masses with the thought that they can do advanced moves without some proper supervision is something i would not like to see. Cant remember the last time i heard a dvd give me feedback. :)

A reference compedium is great but we have to consider the downside too

Gus
30th-January-2005, 08:55 PM
One of my biggest concerns is safety. Arming the masses with the thought that they can do advanced moves without some proper supervision is something i would not like to see..Aye .... and given the number of Ceroc (and some Blitz) teachers I've seen teaching backbreakers, 1st move move jumps and various major drops from stage I'd like to see some 'proper supervision' in classes!


Cant remember the last time i heard a dvd give me feedback. :)Cant remember the last time I saw a MJ teacher giving much in the way of feedback :sad:

johnthehappyguy
30th-January-2005, 10:19 PM
...Cant remember the last time I saw a MJ teacher giving much in the way of feedback :sad:

You are not looking hard enough then Gus, or are looking in the wrong places.
(or dancing in the wrong places ? )

Up here in Scotland, every Ceroc teacher :worthy: :worthy: I have approached:- Scot, Franck, James, Obi, Alison, Mairi, and Kathy, (as well as Adam Nathanson on his home turf); has given me great feedback. Similarly Chalky Whyte of the Edinburgh Le RoC scene.

I have been given constructive comments to improve my lead, style, or ability to complete moves.

Contrary to what you seem to imply, The teachers that I mention above, will give me extra guidance on moves from that class. What they will also do is gladly help me with moves I am trying to do that were taught somewhere else, by a different teacher.

When I approach these teachers I also find it very impressive that they will also commandeer a demo, or another dancer to go over what we are talking about.

Great teaching during the classes, friendly and helpful teachers that offer advice when approached.

I don't think one can ask for much more.

johnthehappyguy :nice:

Gadget
31st-January-2005, 03:47 AM
...I suspect it would be possible to trademark a move...I can't think of anything in MJ/Ceroc that would apply to, though.
"Ceroc Spin" ?

David Franklin
31st-January-2005, 09:01 AM
The point about advanced classes and that the teacher has to deal with many many people is valid and is why there has been so much discussion whether or not they should exist. We have to remember that this thread started by suggesting ALL moves should be incorporated. The manual deals with many 'high risk' moves.In which case, surely the best option is that only 'low risk' moves be incorporated, rather than a blanket objection to the whole idea? I think most would agree that a DVD of drops requires a somewhat different approach to a DVD for general moves, and a DVD for aerials even more so. But in so far as this DVD would be useful/interesting to me, I wouldn't care if there were no drops or aerials at all!


One of my biggest concerns is safety. Arming the masses with the thought that they can do advanced moves without some proper supervision is something i would not like to see. Given that Ceroc teaches moves like the 1st move jump in general classes (which when taught invariably leaves the following freestyle session feeling like a combat zone :mad: ), I'm not sure what you mean by "proper supervision"...


Cant remember the last time i heard a dvd give me feedback. :)I'd have to agree with Gus that you don't get much in the way of feedback during a typical dance class either. (Yes, teachers will give feedback if you ask, but they'll do that for a move off a DVD as well, provided they know it!).

Dave

El Salsero Gringo
31st-January-2005, 09:54 AM
Oh dear.

It sounds like some people in this thread are (deliberately?) mixing two different ideas: there's a perfectly sane reason for not wanting a dance manual to exist, and there's a totally bogus reason.

The sane (but unacknowleged) reason is to protect the concept of "Teacher as knowledge-owner". The only person who's permitted unrestricted access to the information is the teacher, so you *have* to attend classes to get the moves.

In order to make this sound more reasonable however, it's necessary to dress it up in another, bogus, argument, which is to say that it wouldn't be "safe" for we the great unwashed to have access to such dangerous materials without the content being mediated for them by a "trained teacher". Frankly, if I'm dumb enough to hurt myself or my partner while dancing - or malcoordinated enough to offend any else's sensibilities by mangling moves - I'm going to do it with or without the assistance of a book, and the presence or absence of a teacher (however brilliant they think they are) won't make a hap'orth of difference.

The Established Church used the same argument in the fifteenth and sixteen centuries to try to restrict access to their holy scriptures, the Old and New Testaments. They took the matter a bit more seriously, so that anyone who advocated open access to the Bible got burnt at the stake for heresy. Ostensibly this was to protect the public's spritual welfare but what was really going on was an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to control the populace, and force them to attend church where they could be indoctrinated into whichever social and political ideas were currently popular with King or Pope (depending.)

It's about time to move on, don't you think?

MartinHarper
31st-January-2005, 10:02 AM
"Ceroc Spin" ?

The name contains a trademark, but the move itself isn't, AFAIK.

Paul F
31st-January-2005, 10:10 AM
I'd have to agree with Gus that you don't get much in the way of feedback during a typical dance class either. (Yes, teachers will give feedback if you ask, but they'll do that for a move off a DVD as well, provided they know it!).

Dave
I cant really speak for all areas but i would hope that no teacher teaches some of the high risk moves in a class environment.
I would agree though that a large number of low/medium risk moves be published. That would be useful while minimising the risk.

The comment about using safety as a bogus excuse is insulting im afraid. Some of us are very very concerned about the safety of dancers wherever they are. As i mentioned earlier im not against dvds in general as they wont reduce class numbers as ceroc is much more than just learning moves. What i am worried about are the high risk moves and people atempting these on a crowded dancefloor.

David Franklin
31st-January-2005, 10:46 AM
I cant really speak for all areas but i would hope that no teacher teaches some of the high risk moves in a class environment.
I would agree though that a large number of low/medium risk moves be published. That would be useful while minimising the risk.My guess would be there are several hundred low risk moves commonly taught and maybe 20 medium-to-high risk ones. So excluding those 20 isn't going to be that much of a loss if you ask me.

I think there's a separate question about the real high risk moves (where, for clarity, I'm essentially talking aerials). A video certainly can't give you all the info (and feedback!) you need, but there's so little teaching available that most people are reverse-engineering moves together from cabaret footage; hard to see that a well thought out video could be any more dangerous. (There's still an issue of implied or moral responsiblity - I wouldn't want to be responsible for such a video, that's for sure!).

Dave

MartinHarper
31st-January-2005, 11:02 AM
With (say) a couple of hundred people on the average MJ night, and a couple of hours freestyle available, you're looking at a maximum of about forty seconds of personal feedback each. That time may well be gold dust, but I don't think it makes the difference between "safe" and "unsafe". After all, a DVD has more time to go over safety details, compared to a teacher, because it doesn't have to cater to the 75%+ of a class who've heard it all before.

Gadget
31st-January-2005, 02:53 PM
It sounds like some people in this thread are (deliberately?) mixing two different ideas: there's a perfectly sane reason for not wanting a dance manual to exist, and there's a totally bogus reason.
No, the two ideas being mixed are for having a audio-visual reference guide and a full teaching DVD. Nothing to do with wanting one to exist or not.

The first one (the guide and 'visual prompt') is relativly easy to create and produce; fixed point camera, list of moves, text over-lay of reference, calling of move. It would be much better utilised as part of a joint paper reference {Or if tech savey enough, interactive DVD with pages of text} - like some training books come with cd's in the back of them, this 'book' has a DVD in the back of it. The 'book' can highlight things to watch for on screen.

The second one is too time consuming and production intensive to be economically viable; multiple views, complete breakdown, noted points of common errors, ... all recorded, indexed and tied in with the main view.

Both methods contain roughly the same information, but the first would be the more practical application.


The sane (but unacknowleged) reason is to protect the concept of "Teacher as knowledge-owner". The only person who's permitted unrestricted access to the information is the teacher, so you *have* to attend classes to get the moves.
? most/all Ceroc classes have a little book with all the moves done in the last few weeks (or longer) noted - free to access if you ask the teacher (\sometimes taxi).
The "Bible" contains more teaching notes and a move/count breakdown of the move and suggested variants.* I can understand the reluctance of dispersing these freely - it's like a school text book with teacher's notes versus the pupil's version of the text book: The notes are designed to help the teachers impart information to the pupils, not for the pupils to use to learn better. For the teacher, the focus is the notes, for the pupil, the focus is the move and dancing it well.
(I don't think that's explained very well; does it make any sense?)


In order to make this sound more reasonable however, it's necessary to dress it up in another, bogus, argument, which is to say that it wouldn't be "safe" for we the great unwashed to have access to such dangerous materials
Not at all; the point is that some moves contain implicit dangers and if done incorrectly can result in injury. To put these on a DVD would be thoughtless without appropriate warnings and safety speil. The other point mixed up in the argument is that you can't teach social floorcraft skills very well from a DVD that people would be using on their own.


...anyone who advocated open access to the Bible got burnt at the stake for heresy. ~snip~
It's about time to move on, don't you think?
There is already "Open Access" to just about every MJ move you could name; Jiveoholic's site contains most of them. The dispute arround access to the 'bible' is not about the moves, but the teaching of their execution.

Everyone has different notes on how to do a move. Everyone has different highlighted points. Everyone moves differently and adapts differently with different partners. Creating a DVD with a whole bunch of moves would be great for a memory aid to your notes and perhaps to highlight some more things to work on. But I don't think that it would be ideal to learn from initially.

MartinHarper
1st-February-2005, 11:04 AM
You can't teach social floorcraft skills very well from a DVD that people would be using on their own.

Could you give an example of the sort of floorcraft teaching that is done in MJ lessons that would be difficult to do well from a DVD?

Minnie M
1st-February-2005, 11:13 AM
Could you give an example of the sort of floorcraft teaching that is done in MJ lessons that would be difficult to do well from a DVD?

Social Floorcraft (as quoted by Gadget :rolleyes: ) - and I agree - there is a BIG difference :yeah:

MartinHarper
1st-February-2005, 01:22 PM
Umm... I'm not sure I understand.

Could you give an example of the sort of Social Floorcraft teaching that is done in MJ lessons that would be difficult to do well from a DVD?

spindr
1st-February-2005, 02:09 PM
Umm... I'm not sure I understand.

Could you give an example of the sort of Social Floorcraft teaching that is done in MJ lessons that would be difficult to do well from a DVD?

Well, I've been to classes where the teacher would repeatedly halve the dance floor space -- to get everyone to concentrate on dancing close to other partners.

Marcus and Barbl taught an interesting workshop at the last JATW to envisage a "safety" bubble around you and your partner and using what I can only describe as an "active" attentiveness technique to aid the dancers' concentration on the environment around them -- and to try to replicate that feeling to get into a calm but perceptive "dance zone", e.g. before say dancing/competing/performing, etc.

I think both techniques might be hard to convey via a DVD.

SpinDr.

Gadget
1st-February-2005, 02:27 PM
:yeah:

Could you give an example of the sort of floorcraft teaching that is done in MJ lessons that would be difficult to do well from a DVD?
I didn't say 'teacing' from a MJ lesson, but taking part in one; the experiance of actually being on the floor, dancing socially and being aware of other dancers arround you.
If you take a DVD and dance arround the living room, you only have static chairs, tables and other ankle-traps to worry about {and perhaps some livestock :wink:} When on a dance floor, you not only need to be aware of where people are, but how they are moving... you can 'talk' about it on a DVD, but you can't teach it without actually having more than one couple present.

Gus
4th-February-2005, 10:51 PM
I cant really speak for all areas but i would hope that no teacher teaches some of the high risk moves in a class environment. .As I said before ... these moves HAVE been taught at Ceroc venues (I can give you teachers and venues if you want!) There is a noticeble difference between the 'official' line and what is actualy taught. I was actualy DJing at one event when the teacher taught a 1st move jump to an audience predominantly of lower-intermediates :tears: :tears:

El Salsero Gringo
5th-February-2005, 03:50 AM
MODERN JIVE CLASS IN DANGEROUS MOVE SCANDAL
FIRST MOVE JUMP TAUGHT to INTERMEDIATES!
SOME EVEN BELIEVED ONLY TO BE LOWER INTERMEDIATE STANDARD!!!!
Public outraged; hospitals on full alert. Commissioner Gordon has issued the alert for Batman to attend.


Come on guys, do you have any idea how *nal this is starting to sound? Come back from planet Zarquon or wherever this thread is going. Perhaps Ceroc should run a course for advanced dancers called "Getting a grip".

Gus
5th-February-2005, 02:52 PM
Come on guys, do you have any idea how *nal this is starting to sound? Come back from planet Zarquon or wherever this thread is going. Perhaps Ceroc should run a course for advanced dancers called "Getting a grip".Yo Salsero .... your statement clearly indicates why teachers are trained to teach and we dont leave it just to numpties form the floor. The first move jump involves a fair amount of physical exertion and involves ladies turning, twisting and landing. This is fine is you are fit, able to deal with your own weight coming down with force and are wearing appropriate shoes.

HOWEVER, if you have about 2 months dancing experience, wearing heels, possibly weak ankles/kness and possibly carrying a few pounds more than you would like .. then the possibilities of damaged joints, twisted ankles are significant (in fact there were a coupe of minor injuries son the night). that is not even bothering to account for the chances of landing on someone else (the lines were too close together and that aerials are severely frowned on at most clubs.

I suggest that you may want to consult with those who actually teaches aerials as to whether getting a bog-standard teacher to teach aerials in a standard class is a good idea. you could well find that your view may well be in the minority.

El Salsero Gringo
5th-February-2005, 03:37 PM
I gather knitting needles are no longer allowed to be sold with pointy ends either.

Look, if you'd said you disapproved of classes being taught moves that they weren't fit enough to perform, or were wearing the wrong footwear, or had weak ankles - then I'd agree with you. Only the way you put it - and reading your post, you have to agree - it sounds, shall we say, a mite condescending to those of us "lower" intermediate standard dancers who are well up to learn how to do the move.

I don't for an instant imagines that just because it's taught at a Ceroc class it absolves me for all time from the responsibility of doing the move (whatever it be) safely, and in a safe environment.

But if you insist that every class only teaches moves that can safely be done by the participants at the "Moving to Music" sessions at my late Aunt's rest home (3:30pm every Wednesday - bring your own chair and cushion) then there's not going to be much interest in attending.

David Franklin
5th-February-2005, 04:22 PM
Only the way you put it - and reading your post, you have to agree - it sounds, shall we say, a mite condescending to those of us "lower" intermediate standard dancers who are well up to learn how to do the move. OK, here's my opinion. The first move jump is not a difficult aerial to do badly, but requires detailed teaching and a fair bit of practice to do well. The problem with it being taught in a standard MJ class is that the teaching tends to stop at the "do it badly" stage. (Plus everyone then tries it out in freestyle when it's too crowded :mad: ). I'm left wondering what's the point of teaching it if you're not going to try to do so properly?

Dave

Gus
5th-February-2005, 04:22 PM
Look, if you'd said you disapproved of classes being taught moves that they weren't fit enough to perform, or were wearing the wrong footwear, or had weak ankles - then I'd agree with you. Only the way you put it - and reading your post, you have to agree - it sounds, shall we say, a mite condescending to those of us "lower" intermediate standard dancers who are well up to learn how to do the move. .

I was actualy DJing at one event when the teacher taught a 1st move jump to an audience predominantly of lower-intermediates .
Sorry, dont understand your point. Aerials are not for people who have not been dancing long (i.e. lower-intermediates). More experienced intermediates may be able to cope but then the move should only be taught in a workshop type environment. I dont see how I was being condescending. :confused: I've been dancing a fair time but I've seen moves taught from stage that I would have to think twice about attempting.


I don't for an instant imagines that just because it's taught at a Ceroc class it absolves me for all time from the responsibility of doing the move (whatever it be) safely, and in a safe environment..But thats the whole point ... how many people have you seen walk off the floor when a potentialy dangerous move is being taught. About a year ago I ventured to an independant club in the North West where they made a big thing about teaching advanced moves. As it came to the time for the 'BIG' move it was just an awkward drop. I looked around at the women trying to do kamikaze version of the move and decided that the best place to be wa watching the carnage from the comfort of the bar. Of course, some of the regulars took this as proof that I wasnt up to standard to do the class and commented to that effect. Takes all sorts :rolleyes:


GETTING BACK ON THREAD ... and agreeing with Paul F (I think) ... any moves manual would clearly have to illustrate a 'danger' factor ... as in fact the Jiveaholic site does :worthy:

bigdjiver
5th-February-2005, 09:45 PM
From experience, unccordinated beginner ladies with long nails or wearing stilleto heels can be a danger whatever move is being taught. I would guess the same goes for any unccordinated beginner male. As in most things in life it is balancing risk with reward.

spindr
8th-February-2005, 01:59 PM
FYI: Looking at other available guides:

ISTD Rock'n'Roll study notes (July 2000)

The introductory section notes that the dance is physically demanding and shouldn't be danced in high heels.

Basic and Bunny Hop from Promenade Position

Basically an unassisted MJ first move jump, is a Bronze (? beginners' ?) move:
"(56) Man then leads lady to jump away from him turning to her left to face him, making up to a half turn."
The only safety information noted is that "Both dancers must bend their knees before and after this action".

Haley's Comet

Basically an assisted MJ first move jump, with the lady bringing her feet up is listed in "Suggestions For Lifts And Throws" -- which does include general comments, re: crash mats, spotter, etc.

SpinDr.