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Andy McGregor
23rd-January-2005, 07:06 PM
However, in the persistent desire of the “protagonists” to get the last word I feel this thread may be turning people off the forum – although most people probably don't bother to read this thread anymore (poll anyone ?).


Last night I went to a dance in Maidstone and 4 people said how much they enjoyed reading the most recent heated debate/argument. And I've had a few people say how boring they find the Forum when there's no needle. So I thought I'd start a poll as suggested by Clive Long.


Can this discussion be taken outside please so those interested can continue debating until the end of time and we return this forum to dance?

Speaking personally I often take the opposite view on here to get a heated debate going. Even when I agree with the original view :devil: So, what do we want, a Forum where we just discuss dance related issues we all agree on and get technical about dance - lh to rt shoulder, lady turns, guy moves right foot 2 inches to right, turns and faces woman, etc :yawn: Or do we want to have the odd verbal fencing match and disagreement?

To get the ball rolling on a heated debate, here is a comment I took as picking a fight with me from the same thread as I took Clive's quote from. My defence follows :wink:


So all i have to say before i stick you (Andy McGregor) on my ignore list is.....

I hope you're proud of yourself. Maybe you need to take a long hard look in a mirror. You may like what you see......many don't.

Melanie

When I look in the mirror I see myself. When anybody else looks in the mirror they see themselves. To say they don't like what they see in the mirror is to accuse them of self-loathing or of finding themselve unattractive in some way. That's not nice and I'm sure the 'many' don't like FC being so rude about them :flower: :wink:

Andy McGregor
23rd-January-2005, 07:14 PM
When I look in the mirror I see myself.

And I don't like many of the things I see in that mirror, receeding hairline, greying hair, wrinkles, crow's feet, double chin, bags under the eyes, stubble, the odd spot, etc :tears: And I'm not even going to talk about the view in a full-length mirror :blush:

So, I suppose I can't find anything to really disagree with in FC's attack on me. But for her to accuse the 'many' to not like what they see is IMHO, quite a sweeping statement and quite rude :devil:

Bangers & Mash
23rd-January-2005, 07:23 PM
I come from Yorkshire.

That means I say what I mean and I mean what I say.

Most of the time, my arguments are founded; some times they're misinterpreted - but, always I stand by what I say.


My first post on the forum, and raison d'etre was to complain about the music at some venues. Some people agreed, some disagreed.

I caused quite a stir in Edinburgh with my post about baggage which led to a couple of the Edinburgh Suffragettes making it their life purpose to get me banned from Ceroc in Scotland. Both of them claim they have stalkers - I'm not surprised if those are the lengths they will go to if they disagree with someone :rofl:

I've been flamed online and in PMs for my posts and have also had rep points for "brave posts".

Most of the people I've had online arguments with, I've met in person and they're great people....

For that reason, I think the forum is exactly that - a forum - to discuss issues. The point is, if you disagree with someone online, then tell them online. If you agree, then equally do the same. When it gets silly is when people make it their mission to "get revenge" because they disagree.

"Vivre Les Edinburgh Sufragettes. Wake up girls. I've not been banned yet!" :rofl: :rofl:

Feelingpink
23rd-January-2005, 07:24 PM
Heated debates I love (just ask me about multiple pretzels) but not personal, hurtful attacks. If it's something that I wouldn't like said about myself, then it shouldn't be there. We can have a little light-hearted banter about sporrans and sequins ... but when it gets nasty, perhaps we need to think about posting with love? :hug:

Minnie M
23rd-January-2005, 07:34 PM
The trouble with a lot of these 'heated debates' is that most of us are unaware of the follow-on PMs or in some cases emails - therefore we could easily be agreeing / disagreeing with half a story

ChrisA
23rd-January-2005, 08:19 PM
but, always I stand by what I say.

Provided that 'standing by what one says' includes being prepared to withdraw it, apologise for it, or otherwise acknowledge changing one's opinion when it's called for, then fine.

Standing by what one's said regardless, is potentially just being boulshy. :flower:

under par
23rd-January-2005, 08:20 PM
Sorry if this is a bit rambling.

I believe it is everybodys right to put their point of view on any topic (or any point of view they wish, if playing devils advocate is the name of the game.)

Where I find it distasteful and is where points of view become personal attack.

I also hate to see the same point being repeated and repeated ad nausiem.

I also find it very childish when there is a battle to have the last word ( if you have made your point, well you've made your point give it a rest).

I personally tend to avoid most of the religion and political debates on the forum.
This is because IMHO there is no right or wrong and most of the argument is a form of regurgitated historical rhetoric from whatever side of whatever line you stand on.

I enjoy this forum for the fun, the games, the silliness, as well as a live point of reference for what is going on in the dance world, who is going where, when and with whom.

It is also a reference "library", you have on the forum some very talented and well informed people who willingly pass on the benefit of their knowledge and experience. I have managed to sort out quite a few of some life's problems from postings. As well as learning vast amounts about dancing! :yeah:

Debate is good , fights scraps and animosity are unnecessary.

We all enjoy dancing............................. why fall out with fellow dancers on the forum?

Put forward your points of view till the cows come home but stay away from bickering and personal attacks and the forum will remain the vibrant community of modern jive dancers that it is. :flower:

Bangers & Mash
23rd-January-2005, 08:25 PM
Provided that 'standing by what one says' includes being prepared to withdraw it, apologise for it, or otherwise acknowledge changing one's opinion when it's called for, then fine.

Standing by what one's said regardless, is potentially just being boulshy. :flower:

Actually, perhaps I should have said "take ownership" of what I say.

I am more than willing to withdraw a comment, or stand corrected. Part of "ownership" is doing that. What I hate are people who say something and then "run away" from what they've said.

:cheers:

Dance Demon
23rd-January-2005, 08:56 PM
Sorry if this is a bit rambling.

I believe it is everybodys right to put their point of view on any topic (or any point of view they wish, if playing devils advocate is the name of the game.)

Where I find it distasteful and is where points of view become personal attack.

I also hate to see the same point being repeated and repeated ad nausiem.

I also find it very childish when there is a battle to have the last word ( if you have made your point, well you've made your point give it a rest).

I personally tend to avoid most of the religion and political debates on the forum.
This is because IMHO there is no right or wrong and most of the argument is a form of regurgitated historical rhetoric from whatever side of whatever line you stand on.

I enjoy this forum for the fun, the games, the silliness, as well as a live point of reference for what is going on in the dance world, who is going where, when and with whom.

It is also a reference "library", you have on the forum some very talented and well informed people who willingly pass on the benefit of their knowledge and experience. I have managed to sort out quite a few of some life's problems from postings. As well as learning vast amounts about dancing! :yeah:

Debate is good , fights scraps and animosity are unnecessary.

We all enjoy dancing............................. why fall out with fellow dancers on the forum?

Put forward your points of view till the cows come home but stay away from bickering and personal attacks and the forum will remain the vibrant community of modern jive dancers that it is. :flower:

what an excellent post UP. Not rambling at all. Good points well put, and i totally agree with all you said :yeah: .. :worthy: :worthy:

Minnie M
23rd-January-2005, 09:01 PM
what an excellent post UP. Not rambling at all. Good points well put, and i totally agree with all you said :yeah: .. :worthy: :worthy:

:yeah: :worthy: :yeah: :worthy: :yeah: worth lots of rep

Zebra Woman
23rd-January-2005, 09:16 PM
what an excellent post UP. Not rambling at all. Good points well put, and i totally agree with all you said :yeah: .. :worthy: :worthy:
Me too :clap: :clap: :clap:

Andy McGregor
23rd-January-2005, 09:42 PM
Debate is good , fights scraps and animosity are unnecessary.

We all enjoy dancing............................. why fall out with fellow dancers on the forum?

Put forward your points of view till the cows come home but stay away from bickering and personal attacks and the forum will remain the vibrant community of modern jive dancers that it is. :flower:

Very good post Mr Par :clap:

The problem I see is one of personal insults. You need to agree and disagree about the matter you're discussing, not the person that's discussing them. I think it's just fine to say for example. "You don't know what you're talking about if you think it's OK to do airsteps in a crowded dance floor because you could injure dancers around you". You have disagreed over a specific issue and you have presented a specific reason why you disagree. What, IMHO, it isn't OK to say is "you are a twerp" because it's a personal insult: just like the one below;


I hope you're proud of yourself. Maybe you need to take a long hard look in a mirror. You may like what you see......many don't.

Melanie

This is a personal insult. And it's not even a very good one as it is non-specific: it doesn't say what I wouldn't like to see in the mirror and it doesn't say what the 'many' wouldn't like to see in their mirrors either :confused:

But I am left with the feeling that there's something I should see in the mirror that is quite horrible and probably last seen "in the woodshed" :eek:

foxylady
23rd-January-2005, 09:52 PM
Sorry if this is a bit rambling.

I believe it is everybodys right to put their point of view on any topic (or any point of view they wish, if playing devils advocate is the name of the game.)

Where I find it distasteful and is where points of view become personal attack.

I also hate to see the same point being repeated and repeated ad nausiem.

I also find it very childish when there is a battle to have the last word ( if you have made your point, well you've made your point give it a rest).

I personally tend to avoid most of the religion and political debates on the forum.
This is because IMHO there is no right or wrong and most of the argument is a form of regurgitated historical rhetoric from whatever side of whatever line you stand on.

I enjoy this forum for the fun, the games, the silliness, as well as a live point of reference for what is going on in the dance world, who is going where, when and with whom.

It is also a reference "library", you have on the forum some very talented and well informed people who willingly pass on the benefit of their knowledge and experience. I have managed to sort out quite a few of some life's problems from postings. As well as learning vast amounts about dancing! :yeah:

Debate is good , fights scraps and animosity are unnecessary.

We all enjoy dancing............................. why fall out with fellow dancers on the forum?

Put forward your points of view till the cows come home but stay away from bickering and personal attacks and the forum will remain the vibrant community of modern jive dancers that it is. :flower:

Excellent post.

Absolutely my feelings exactly. The problem with words, especially those typed and not spoken, is that the way they are read may not be the same as the way, and spirit, in which they have been written. Indeed a number of times on this forum people have reacted heatedly to a post that had been made where the interpretation has not been that intended by the poster.

Possibly concilliation, as well as moderation, is needed....

Mud-slinging is horrible. I don't want to read it !

Andy McGregor
23rd-January-2005, 09:56 PM
Possibly concilliation as well as moderation is needed....


I often think that there is also a need for better punctuation to aid better understanding of the intended message.

foxylady
23rd-January-2005, 09:59 PM
I often think that there is also a need for better punctuation to aid better understanding of the intended message.

Start a fight why dontcha ! :wink:

Magic Hans
23rd-January-2005, 11:18 PM
Heated debates I love (just ask me about multiple pretzels) but not personal, hurtful attacks. If it's something that I wouldn't like said about myself, then it shouldn't be there. We can have a little light-hearted banter about sporrans and sequins ... but when it gets nasty, perhaps we need to think about posting with love? :hug:

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I fully agree and would go further.

I am interested when the discussed issue is relevant or of interest to me.

I get turned off by any negative comments directed at, or associated with another.

[Firstly clarifying disclaimer: I fully appreciate that some of what I have and will write/post is contentious. Please note that I have always been at pains not to openly accuse anyone of as much as harming a fly [even in the "Team Competition at Brighton" thread]. Implications have been and almost certainly will be drawn, however.

For me:

I hope you're proud of yourself. Maybe you need to take a long hard look in a mirror. You may like what you see......many don't.
is as big a turn off as:


Originally Posted by f****
I hope you're proud of yourself. Maybe you need to take a long hard look in a mirror. You may like what you see......many don't.

M*****This is a personal insult. And it's not even a very good one as it is non-specific: it doesn't say what I wouldn't like to see in the mirror and it doesn't say what the 'many' wouldn't like to see in their mirrors either

Similarly, I try my utmost to use the "I" tense rather than the (very predominant) "You" tense (especially when used as a generalisation), which is far easier to take offence at.

["You are discriminating against me", can be argued, defended. It may not have been the intention. "I feel discriminated against", can't be disputed, although it can be dismissed!]

Having said that, some do take offence [I point blankedly refuse to!], when and where no offence was necessarily intended. I am tempted to take offence at their taking offence!!! .... but quite frankly, I find that just silly!!

Communication is a strange beast!!!

Ian

Magic Hans
23rd-January-2005, 11:31 PM
...[Firstly clarifying disclaimer: I fully appreciate that some of what I have and will write/post is contentious. Please note that I have always been at pains not to openly accuse anyone of as much as harming a fly [even in the "Team Competition at Brighton" thread]. Implications have been and almost certainly will be drawn, however.
...

Thinking back ... the above isn't quite true. I did mention the organiser's name. Mind, it would have been very easy for anyone reading to have drawn the implication. It's a bit tricky when discussing specific situations/scenarios.

Northants Girly
24th-January-2005, 12:07 AM
I often think that there is also a need for better punctuation to aid better understanding of the intended message.You can't help yourself can you! :wink:

Whitebeard
24th-January-2005, 12:59 AM
I hope you're proud of yourself. Maybe you need to take a long hard look in a mirror. You may like what you see......many don't.



This is a personal insult. And it's not even a very good one as it is non-specific: it doesn't say what I wouldn't like to see in the mirror and it doesn't say what the 'many' wouldn't like to see in their mirrors either
I have no idea of the context of filthycute's remark, or its justification, and have no personal axe to grind.

However, is your response merely misinterpretation, or does it amount to misrepresentation ???

To me, filthycute is saying that you may like what you see in your mirror, but many, looking at you, may might not like what they see. (Nothing there about looking at themselves in the mirror.)

Hope the punctuation passes muster.

Andy McGregor
24th-January-2005, 01:56 AM
I have no idea of the context of filthycute's remark, or its justification, and have no personal axe to grind.

However, is your response merely misinterpretation, or does it amount to misrepresentation ???

To me, filthycute is saying that you may like what you see in your mirror, but many, looking at you, may might not like what they see. (Nothing there about looking at themselves in the mirror.)

Hope the punctuation passes muster.

Whitebeard is right - but the sentence from FilthyCute was ambiguous. I chose to play on that ambiguity for the sake of entertainment and to draw attention away from the hurtful nature of the personal insult by making light of it.

That FilthyCute has chosen to throw a personal insult at me is clear. Her underlying message is that many people don't like what I see in my mirror :tears: She is saying that my image is unlikeable - the intention if that post is insulting, hurtful and rude. And she is making assumptions that she is in no position to make. Firstly she assumes that I like what I see in my mirror - which I don't: I see evidence of the ageing process that I'm learning to live with. I don't need a sweet young woman to point that out to me :tears: What she is also assuming is that "many" people don't like what I see in my mirror. How does she know what "many" people like and don't like about my reflected image? :confused:

As I'm now on FC's ignore list I don't expect her to read this email or respond. But if she were to read it I wonder if she'd apologise for such a personal insult hurled with obvious hurtful intent? Or bleat on about bleeding hearts and my playing the poor injured soldier - or throw some other over-used metaphor and similie.

But, to get back on thread, so far it seems that people enjoy a good scrap on here. And I did notice that the 2nd person to vote in this poll actually voted in all 4 categories - probably undecided :wink:

N.B. I think Whitebeard's punctuation is at least as good as mine - but then what do I know? :blush:

Gadget
24th-January-2005, 02:24 AM
in breif: debate=good, argument=bad. :wink:

I personally tend to avoid most of the religion and political debates on the forum.
This is because IMHO there is no right or wrong and most of the argument is a form of regurgitated historical rhetoric from whatever side of whatever line you stand on.
And this is precisley why it makes for good debate: there is no right or wrong - just view points. There is nothing to dedate in a fact, however anyone's opinion can be disputed {and, with some of the pedants on here, even some of the "facts" :rolleyes::whistle:}

It may appear that I am one of the main "agressors" on this forum {:innocent:}but most of the argument comes simply from others stating their opinion as fact and assuming that everyone agrees with it. Arrogance. The quote from Andy is a case in point:
This is a personal insult.... Yes and no - it was personal because the prior poster directed the comment towards Andy. However elevating it to the status of "insult" is an opinion, and could only be true if what was said was derogatory; I doubt that he has any problems with looking in mirrors or examinig his own world. What was said was to provoke Andy's response an opinion on the views and ideology expressed by him - note; another opinion.
And to express my opinion of the post; Andy's response was provocative and incitefull. Unfortunatly not towards exploring ideas, but to provoke a negative respnse and incite argument rather than debate. But this is my opinion and no more valid than his.

A debate is an exploration of ideas, proposition of hypothoses, arguments discussed for and against an idea or ideology, made up more of "if's" and conjecture than facts.
An argument is when emotion, beleif and motivation become the center of the discussion: everyone is right in their world and everyone has beleif and conviction of their viewpoint. Millions of conflicting views, all right and all wrong at the same time. The concept or idea is lost in people stating "facts" from their hearts and assuming everyone should feel the same.

Modern Jive is the perfect arena for debate; it is simply 'dancing with your partner' without the constraints of having to work within a labled style. So much conjecture and so many ideas that debate is easy. However we dance to music, and music is an expression of emotion, and the dance an extension of this. Passionate people will argue more than debate - have stronger friendships and more confrontational dissagrements. Thus the nature of man.

If you want "facts", you have a static web site declaring the truth and falsehood of statements. If you want understanding, growth and development, you ask questions and discuss answers on a forum. {:clap: yae Franck}
Arguments and personal attacks only occur when you read everything as addressed to you directly. And then only when you take them to heart. As someone famous once said; the only person who can make you feel inferior is yourself. I would say that the same holds true for insults.

Andy McGregor
24th-January-2005, 02:47 AM
The quote from Andy is a case in point:This is a personal insult.... Yes and no - it was personal because the prior poster directed the comment towards Andy. However elevating it to the status of "insult" is an opinion, and could only be true if what was said was derogatory; I doubt that he has any problems with looking in mirrors or examinig his own world. What was said was to provoke Andy's response an opinion on the views and ideology expressed by him - note; another opinion.

I think that it's down to intent. There is no doubt in my mind that FC's comment was intended as an insult and there is no doubt in my mind that it was personal. That I was not hurt by the insult does not lessen the intent, only the result. What the insult did not do was further the debate, only lower it's tone.


And to express my opinion of the post; Andy's response was provocative and incitefull. Unfortunatly not towards exploring ideas, but to provoke a negative respnse and incite argument rather than debate. But this is my opinion and no more valid than his.

Gadget is guessing my intent and doing so wrongly. My intent was to help FC realise that she was getting personal and insulting in her posting - more personal than she was accusing me of being about LL.

Also, in a thread about heated debate and fighting, shouldn't there be some?

David Franklin
24th-January-2005, 09:18 AM
Also, in a thread about heated debate and fighting, shouldn't there be some?Andy - it's clear from your postings that you think it's all good fun. But you'd be surprised how many people tell me they won't join the forum, because all it seems to be is people bitching and sniping. Sure the "I don't like heated debate..." item is running last (still with a significant %, though), but if you had an option "I don't like personal arguments carried out in public...", I think you'd get a very different answer.

As a slight aside, I've been somewhat disconcerted to hear from a couple of high profile dancers who have been upset by forum comments about their performances. I'm not sure what the answer is; if you compete, or if you teach, maybe you have to expect public criticism - certainly the DJs do! But on the other hand, few, if any of our top dancers actually dance for a living - they have real jobs, and dancing is something they do for enjoyment, not criticism. I think people are a bit more 'careful' in their comments about regulars they know read them, but do remember there are a lot of people who 'lurk' without being logged in - just because you never see their names, doesn't mean they're not reading what you say.

Dave

Andy McGregor
24th-January-2005, 09:53 AM
Andy - it's clear from your postings that you think it's all good fun. But you'd be surprised how many people tell me they won't join the forum, because all it seems to be is people bitching and sniping. Sure the "I don't like heated debate..." item is running last (still with a significant %, though), but if you had an option "I don't like personal arguments carried out in public...", I think you'd get a very different answer.

I think David is absolutely right. The forum is no place to conduct personal arguments or throw around personal insults. That is the point I've been making (ad nauseum) about FilthyCute's comments about me - they shouldn't have been made on the open Forum. FilthyCute disageed with me calling a halt to a particular debate that was getting personal about LL. And she chose to get personal about me in the process. She assumed she knew my motivation in calling a halt to the debate and got that wrong (I was trying to stop the debate because LL had asked me to :flower: ).

I hope FilthyCute got the message as I think I've said it enough times :whistle:

N.B. On the subject of comment about dance competitors - isn't that what we do on here? :confused: Half the responders to the 5th-7th debate are going to the Blackpool dance competition. Half of us are competitors and we talk about things that happened in competitions, good and bad. We'd have to ban talk about competitions if we were to make sure we didn't say anything that might upset a competitor. And, if we're going to ban debate about competitions because it might upset someone's sensitivities Franck might as well close shop :tears:

David Franklin
24th-January-2005, 10:26 AM
N.B. On the subject of comment about dance competitors - isn't that what we do on here? :confused: Half the responders to the 5th-7th debate are going to the Blackpool dance competition. Half of us are competitors and we talk about things that happened in competitions, good and bad. We'd have to ban talk about competitions if we were to make sure we didn't say anything that might upset a competitor. And, if we're going to ban debate about competitions because it might upset someone's sensitivities Franck might as well close shop :tears:I'm not proposing we ban debate. I am asking people to think about what they're saying, and to be aware that the people they're writing about are almost certainly going to read it or hear about it, even if you never see them on the forum. And I'm reminding people that competitors, and, in particular, the "dance gods" are all real people with feelings as well. I know I've been guilty of thinking "Hey, they're 'professionals' - they can take feedback..." when actually they're no more professional than the rest of us, and although they put a brave face on it, they may actually be quite upset.

Dave

MartinHarper
24th-January-2005, 11:04 AM
I like reading interesting discussions. I like reading a range of opinions, even controversial ones. I feel free to express my opinions and beliefs, even if they're controversial, or others find them offensive.

I don't like fights. I don't like heated debates. I don't like personal attacks. They're not necessary, and they normally result in more heat than light. While I appreciate that flame wars hold a certain morbid interest to others, I'm not interested in performing to an audience.


... gone completely OTT ... libellous ... hot air ... the error of his ways ... very bad ... rude ... derogatory ... thoughtless oversight ... thinking before we post ... damage done ... rudeness ... mischief making with malice ... derogatory remarks ... insulting comments ... malicious postings ...

I like my ignore list.

Swinging bee
24th-January-2005, 11:25 AM
"With all this hot air about no wonder there is global warming"

Will
24th-January-2005, 11:41 AM
http://www.celebritybattles.com/./thumbs/jerryspringer.gif

CJ
24th-January-2005, 11:50 AM
Again, as one who has crossed swords on a couple of occasions, I feel duty bound to type:

I have , generally, only ever crossed swords with 2 people: Gus and ChrisA.

Gus and I are both fairly intelligent, have good grips on our own senses of humour and are able to argue a point that we don't necassarily agree with, but feel that view needs to be expressed. I truly feel that when we get personal, it's without getting personal and is so heavily camped up, I'm stunned no-one has written a panto for the two of us!!

ChrisA is another story. I truly look forward to meeting Chris and exchanging views...

Also, I feel part of my remit as one of the older members is to pull people up when I feel they have crossed a line or are somewhat ignorant on a point or two. e.g. The "Gordy Incident." It doesn't always win me friends, but I did build up a good size rep (before rejigging) for some reason, so go figure.

If I think someone is behaving like an arse, yes I feel it's my duty to say something. We each are dependant on each other for this forum and owe each other the knowledge that we carry collective resonsibility for the forum, it's vibe and everyone concerned.

Thoughts, as always, welcome.

Your humble CJ.

Clive Long
24th-January-2005, 11:52 AM
Most of what I was struggling to write about this subject has already been written - but here are my views as a contribution - they may repeat what has already been written.

I think this forum is great and respect to those who created it and nurture it both technically and via their contribution. :worthy: :worthy:

The comments I make below I believe apply to any conversation or debate.
The difference about internet forums is they give people the platform to go on (and on, and on, and on, ….) about anything (boy, am I guilty of that!)
Forum comments are also public – so people see the mud being slung – they may find it entertaining, they may find it boring, they may find it offensive.
Forums are shared – so your mud-slinging pollutes my nice happy discussion forum where everyone is open, trusted and supporting :wink:
People may post something just to be willfully provocative (guilty m’lud) because they think they are being clever and / or witty – doubtful behaviour in my book


Facts and opinions
*********************

Some examples of comments in postings I think are acceptable and unacceptable. There are pages about posting netiquette that contain sound advice (often ignored, willfully).


“You are fat and bald” - true but probably irrelevant unless you are down to play the part of a youthful James Dean (substitute favourite member of the later lamented busted Busted / The Rasmus etc. if you don't know who James Dean was)

“You are fat and ugly” - highjacking a true statement to promote a personal insult. The person making the statement may not find me attractive, and many may agree with her, but what is gained by such a statement? Should I go on a diet and have “body sculpture” to satisfy her views of what is physically appealing?

“You are a dirty, stinking Englishman” – probably factually true after I have been walking in the hills for a few days – but what is the intention of the person making the statement?

1. If I lack personal hygiene, I need to be told about it – however hurtful it is to me because my pong offends other people and in the long run my “social success” :wink: may improve if I clean up my act. The statement is being cruel to be kind. I may be hurt but I may be grateful in the end.
2. If the person is a robust friendly Glaswegian, who also is deprecating about the “achievements” of the Scottish fitba team – I take his comment in good part, as long as he accepts such comments back. If I lack self-esteem his light-hearted comments “come on! its only a joke! Don’t you have a sense of humour?” may be personally very damaging. A lot depends on how I FEEL about myself and what I THINK and FEEL about the person making the remark (do I value her opinion? Do I want him to like me?)
3. If the person is a robust un-friendly Glaswegian (we are talking hypothetically of course) who is approaching me with a broken beer bottle, then I can assume his intent and hope I can run faster than him.

“You are a poor dancer” - WRONG! Hurtful and your opinion. I may not be graceful on or off the dance-floor, I may hold too tight, I may have a limited range of moves, and woman “A” may hate dancing with me but woman “B to Z” really enjoys dancing with me so to them I am a good dancer and a good dance partner.

“I think you are a poor dancer” - That's OK-ish because you have indicated it is your opinion by "I think" - but most people would be hurt by such a statement even if expressed such a way.

"Can I make a suggestion?" - I have done this in a sincere attempt to "improve" someone’s dancing and hence her enjoyment of dance. With such a helpful suggestion, I have made any enemy for life and I feel those stabbing pains in my shoulder every time she sticks pins in that doll she has made of me.

“The chalets at Camber are basic, cold and tatty” –
I might say that the chalets at Camber are basic and cold (almost undeniably true)
or I might say they are tatty and cold (not really true),
I might say the chalets are dirty (not true).
I might say that some of the dancers are very unapproachable.
The effect of these statements MIGHT be to discourage people from going to Camber - which would be a great loss because ALTHOUGH the chalets are 1. basic and cold and 2. some of the dancers are unapproachable actually my EXPERIENCE has shown that 1. is irrelevant to my enjoyment of the event and 2. is true of any dance event not just Camber and there are many, many other people who are happy to dance with me.
Our choice about which venue to go to is influenced by what we believe to be or are told are facts. If the purpose of giving bad feed-back about a site is to make it seem bad to promote your event then this is malicious.


Tricky ……….

Managing disputes
**************

Suggestion: 3PMs to the forum moderator and the post is "taken outside"

Purpose of this forum
****************

Mainly: Share information about events and to share advice about how to improve one's dancing
But also … well anything to do with partner dance. Now I have my VIEW about what partner dance SHOULD be. Even though everyone disagrees with my opinion about the Madison, and I THINK you are all fools for enjoying it, I'm not in a position to say you are all fools (unless I say it very quietly).

People come to the forum with different personal views and personal styles - there will be disagreement and conflict – ‘tis life.

Clive
*********************************
Peace, love and Malt whisky

ChrisA
24th-January-2005, 12:56 PM
Gus and I are both fairly intelligent, have good grips on our own senses of humour and are able to argue a point that we don't necassarily agree with, but feel that view needs to be expressed. I truly feel that when we get personal, it's without getting personal and is so heavily camped up, I'm stunned no-one has written a panto for the two of us!!

Well CJ is certainly intelligent.

He's perfectly capable of structuring his comments in such a way that it's slightly ambiguous whether he just derives entertainment from needling people, or holds a genuine negative opinion of someone.

And to do this as consistently as he does, proves that he invariably knows exactly what he's saying.

Interestingly enough, I don't recall a single occasion where he and I actually have crossed swords. Usually it takes the form of a post from me, usually well-intended, and a snide reply from him which doesn't really express any contrary opinion at all, but just gives the impression that he thinks I'm an ar5e. Not that I really give a damn whether he thinks that or not, since there are plenty of people whose opinions I value a lot more, and I expect they know who they are. :flower:



ChrisA is another story. I truly look forward to meeting Chris and exchanging views...

If this were true, then I don't see why an exchange of views here is so impossible for him.

I have views about hotshots, stinkers, yankers, perverts, dangerous dancing, competition categories, music and lots of other things; I probably bang on about some of the things I feel strongly about more than I should for some people's tastes, and I try to express what I think as honestly and coherently as I can.

If CJ thinks I make an ar5e of myself here, then why can't he persuade me of the error of my ways other than by being snide? I don't actually know what he thinks about any of the things I post about most frequently.

But whether he's interested in exchanging views with me or not, this comment is really just another moderately clever way of being ambiguous enough to make someone take offense if they're that way inclined.

Chris :flower:

CJ
24th-January-2005, 01:02 PM
ChrisA is another story.


Bingo. :worthy:

Gus
24th-January-2005, 01:03 PM
Guys ... do everybody a favour. BEFORE anyone else posts have a look over this thread so far .... its ALREADY starting to degenerate. Ask yourself, who in their right mind would want to join a forum where people have to ask the question whether its OK to be nasty to someone IN PUBLIC? No wonder people are put off joining. I can see more and more logic with the increasing numbers of established members who are leaving the forum. :(

CJ
24th-January-2005, 01:25 PM
Interestingly enough, I don't recall a single occasion where he and I actually have crossed swords. :flower:

No idea how to link to it, but there is a thread called "Sweary Words" started by yours truly.

More tea, anyone?

CJ
24th-January-2005, 01:41 PM
I lied: is called "Swearing."

bigdjiver
24th-January-2005, 01:45 PM
Perhaps we should try for the best of all worlds and have a "Take it outside" area, like we have "Take it upstairs". Let the protagonists slug it out on their own, or to an audience, as forum tastes decide.

Heather
24th-January-2005, 01:56 PM
Perhaps we should try for the best of all worlds and have a "Take it outside" area, like we have "Take it upstairs". Let the protagonists slug it out on their own, or to an audience, as forum tastes decide.


We already do!!!!!

:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
XX

Andy McGregor
24th-January-2005, 02:10 PM
Bingo. :worthy:

He's winding you up ChrisA ...

.. but that Dreadful Scathe, now THAT'S another story :wink:

bigdjiver
24th-January-2005, 02:44 PM
Oh well, all this inspires some of us:

13:23 24/01/05

mirror mirror on the wall
you are unfairest of them all
you tell the truth of what you see
but you don't show the soul of me
the soul of me

You say I'm ugly and I'm old
I'm sure there's more that should be told
there's so much beauty to be seen
in what I know and where I've been
where I've been

And though my image does not bear inspection
perhaps there is only one that is perfection
I look at you and upon reflection
there is nothing to be learned
a lesson taught or dollar earned
so I say your view is spurned

I ain't gonna look
learn from your book
No, I ain't gonna look
in your direction.

mirror mirror on the wall
you are unfairest of them all
you tell the truth of what you see
but you don't show the soul of me
the soul of me

13:32 24/01/05

All rights reserved

Dreadful Scathe
24th-January-2005, 04:45 PM
.. but that Dreadful Scathe, now THAT'S another story :wink:

..and it begins as an infant, staring up out of the pram at the world outside wondering if clouds were edible. I've still never tested this.

Andy McGregor
24th-January-2005, 04:59 PM
..and it begins as an infant, staring up out of the pram at the world outside wondering if clouds were edible. I've still never tested this.

You've obviously never tried skiing in Scotland. You have to eat your way through the cloud to make it to the bottom of the piste :what:

CJ
24th-January-2005, 05:04 PM
You've obviously never tried skiing in Scotland. You have to eat your way through the cloud to make it to the bottom of the piste :what:

If it was in Glenshee: is pretty safe to assume that cloud was a fart from the guy skiing in front of you. :what:

Bigger Andy
25th-January-2005, 01:50 PM
Last night I went to a dance in Maidstone and 4 people said how much they enjoyed reading the most recent heated debate/argument.

~ snip ~

Speaking personally I often take the opposite view on here to get a heated debate going.




I hope that you enjoyed the dance at Maidstone, Andy ?
How did you find the general level of dancing ?
(No need to take the opposite view when you answer these questions !)



As far as I am aware, there were 5 forum members present :-
Andy McGregor,
Bigger Andy,
Chef,
Rentaghost,
Swinging bee.

Knowing most of them, I rather suspect that the excuse of the Maidstone dance might be another example of your taking the opposite view to provoke the debate and start this thread ?!?

Clive Long
25th-January-2005, 01:53 PM
You've obviously never tried skiing in Scotland. You have to eat your way through the cloud to make it to the bottom of the piste :what:

Ahhhh ..... Skiing in Scotland (glenshee maybe).

Memories of that wonderful mixture of slush and ice called "snow" on Scottish piste (OK it was late March).

Memories of drag lifts on horizontal slopes.

Memories of ski gear consisting of Dad's old overcoat, freeze-dry jeans, non-fitting boots and Dad's old trilby to top it off.

Memories of steam rising from our boots an hour after taking them off.

Memories of a hotel with kedgeree and kippers the size of Wales for breakfast.

Such wonderful memories never fade.

Clive

Andy McGregor
25th-January-2005, 04:48 PM
I hope that you enjoyed the dance at Maidstone, Andy ?
How did you find the general level of dancing ?
(No need to take the opposite view when you answer these questions !)



As far as I am aware, there were 5 forum members present :-
Andy McGregor,
Bigger Andy,
Chef,
Rentaghost,
Swinging bee.

Knowing most of them, I rather suspect that the excuse of the Maidstone dance might be another example of your taking the opposite view to provoke the debate and start this thread ?!?




The people who said they enjoyed reading the heated debate about who's going where were 2 of those listed above plus their partners :wink:

And yes, I did enjoy the dance in Maidstone. I danced with just about all of the women and one of the men and found the overall standard of dancing a bit higher than usual because there were no beginners. On an individual basis I had some absolutely fab dances with half a dozen or so women and some difficult/careful dances with about the same number :flower:

One thing I didn't like was that quite a few people were doing the Cha Cha to appropriate tracks. This takes up more room than MJ the way they did it and the floor didn't really have that much room to spare :tears:

Bigger Andy
26th-January-2005, 01:46 PM
The people who said they enjoyed reading the heated debate about who's going where were 2 of those listed above plus their partners :wink:

Hmmm ... :whistle:

Intriguing ... :confused:

I wonder ... :really:


:) :grin: :D

Andy McGregor
26th-January-2005, 02:27 PM
Hmmm ... :whistle:

Intriguing ... :confused:

I wonder ... :really:


:) :grin: :D



Hmmm ...

Enigmatic ... :confused:

Doesn't Bigger Andy believe me? It was really a throw-away line like "we've been enjoying the fun and games on the X thread", no big deal. But it does seem that the people who actually enjoy a heated debate are in the majority - it's just that those that don't enjoy are a vocal minority: possibly voicing counter-productive comments as their complaints about argument usually incite more argument.

Maybe they should keep quiet and wait for the war to end - come on guys, pretend you're Switzerland :wink:

Bigger Andy
26th-January-2005, 02:47 PM
Doesn't Bigger Andy believe me?


I don't disbelieve you, Andy. :flower:

I was simply wondering who you were referring to that liked to read the heated debates.

David Franklin
26th-January-2005, 02:49 PM
But it does seem that the people who actually enjoy a heated debate are in the majority - it's just that those that don't enjoy are a vocal minority: possibly voicing counter-productive comments as their complaints about argument usually incite more argument.Of course, your poll lumps all disagreements into "heated debate"; I have nothing against debate, but I would rather avoid the personal attacks and arguments which never end because some people feel they have to have the last word. Even so about a quarter don't like it. It's also somewhat disingenuous not to mention the 'other poll' about personal arguments - which only 1 person (4%) said they enjoyed. Lies, damned lies, and statistics, eh...?

Some think that if they carry on shouting until no-one answers back then they've won the argument; the truth is they're no longer even winning people's attention...

Dave

Chef
26th-January-2005, 03:44 PM
As one of the people at the Maidstone dance that Andy and Bigger Andy refer to I can make my feelings on this clear (as I can).

I like seeing discussion and debate on this forum. Seeing differing views put across gives me other viewpoints to consider that may either enlighten me or require a change in my currently held view.

By what people say and how they say it I can get some impression of how much thought has been put into an idea before it even gets expressed here. Some come across as wise and some come across as (hunts for correct expression) "persistently hard of understanding". The occasional example of "bloody minded and flippant" is not worth the download time either.

Everybody can make slips with the nuances of the way that they express themselves but we really should be gracious about this rather than jump upon the person (I am thinking about an incident when someone was bad repped for a punctuation error).

What I don't like is when I see what looks like personal animosities seeming to turn in to personal vendettas on these pages. What can start off as banter then goes onto animosity before just becoming infantile.

A lot of people look at this website but it seems that very few are willing to post on it.

Could it be that these squabbles make this place look like somewhere where the new and nervous fear to post?

Let's disagree without being disagreable.

Debate yes. Squabble No.

Andy McGregor
26th-January-2005, 03:58 PM
Debate yes. Squabble No.
:yeah:

I think that we enjoy a good written scrap about something we feel passionately about - we sometimes even enjoy a bit of written rough-n-tumble about something we're not especially bothered about, but put up a different point of view because we enjoy the intellectual challenge.

And I think it may sometimes be a failure of intellect that causes some debates to decline into name calling - I can't think of a counter-argument to your point but you smell and you weren't nice to my hamster :whistle:

Chef
26th-January-2005, 04:03 PM
And I think it may sometimes be a failure of intellect that causes some debates to decline into name calling - I can't think of a counter-argument to your point but you smell and you weren't nice to my hamster :whistle:

Your hampster was a delicate subject. Another slice anyone? :devil:

I hope no one brings the hampster up again. :whistle:

Minnie M
26th-January-2005, 04:09 PM
Your hampster was a delicate subject. Another slice anyone? :devil:

I hope no one brings the hampster up again. :whistle:

Is your hampster called Shirley :rofl:

under par
26th-January-2005, 04:14 PM
Your hampster was a delicate subject. Another slice anyone? :devil:

I hope no one brings the hampster up again. :whistle:


I only had one slice and I brought it up later :D

Andy McGregor
26th-January-2005, 04:23 PM
Of course, your poll lumps all disagreements into "heated debate";

I would like to think the wise members of this forum could discern the difference between heated debate about a particular subject and personal arguments. And I think the very different results of the two polls show that forumites have no difficulty in telling the difference between the two. What clever people we are - apart from those silly and slightly fragrant people that disagree with me and own a hamster :devil:

Andy McGregor
26th-January-2005, 04:25 PM
...
And who says you're bigger?*

*although you probably are :tears:

Dreadful Scathe
26th-January-2005, 04:30 PM
Your hampster was a delicate subject. Another slice anyone? :devil:

I hope no one brings the hampster up again. :whistle:

Heres a direct quote from www.dictionary.com


No entry found for hampster.

Did you mean hamster?

Andy McGregor
26th-January-2005, 04:32 PM
Heres a direct quote from www.dictionary.com
I think Chef was referring to the picnic hampster ...

Lou
26th-January-2005, 04:35 PM
hampsterdance (http://www.hampsterdance2.com/hampsterdance2.html)

:tears: :sick: :whistle:

Dreadful Scathe
26th-January-2005, 04:38 PM
Purveyors of squeeky pop songs CANNOT spell. Fact :)

Chef
26th-January-2005, 04:39 PM
I think Chef was referring to the picnic hampster ...

Just going off to the user control panel to see if I have been negative repped for a spelling mistook. :grin:

Andy McGregor
26th-January-2005, 04:44 PM
Just going off to the user control panel to see if I have negative repped for a spelling mistook. :grin:

According to Steve Wright's dictionary Chef's spelling is correct - now how does he spell skelington, one l or two? :innocent:

Bigger Andy
27th-January-2005, 02:01 PM
And who says you're bigger?*

*although you probably are :tears:

I did !

And I know !

:rofl: :clap: :rofl:

Swinging bee
27th-January-2005, 02:24 PM
Do we like a heated debate/fight on the Forum???????
Definition FORUM
noun [C]
1 a situation or meeting in which people can talk about a problem or matter especially of public interest:
a forum for debate/discussion

2 in ancient Rome, the area in the middle of the town used for public business

3 a place on the Internet where people can leave messages or discuss particular subjects with other people at the same time:
Discussion forums are a way of contacting people with similar interests from all over the world.

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)




This Says it all really.....It's just human nature (warts and all) like it or not.

Bigger Andy
27th-January-2005, 02:44 PM
It's just human nature (warts and all) like it or not.



Oh no it isn't !!!
:devil: :rofl: :devil:

Swinging bee
27th-January-2005, 04:29 PM
Oh no it isn't !!!
:devil: :rofl: :devil:




Oh no it isn't!!!!!! and I will argue with anyone who says so!! :rofl:

Lou
27th-January-2005, 04:49 PM
According to Steve Wright's dictionary Chef's spelling is correct - now how does he spell skelington, one l or two? :innocent:

Skellington (http://www.mp3.com/albums/164596/summary.html) has 2 Ls, of course. :rolleyes:

Magic Hans
28th-January-2005, 02:20 AM
Oh no it isn't !!!
:devil: :rofl: :devil:





Oh yes it is!!!!! :what: :what: :what:


[ ..... errrrr when's pantomime season again??? :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: ]

Andy McGregor
28th-January-2005, 11:13 AM
Skellington (http://www.mp3.com/albums/164596/summary.html) has 2 Ls, of course. :rolleyes:

My question was designed to smoke out the forum's great spellers :whistle:

Now, back to the plot. It seems that the majority of people on here like heated debate. What they don't like is personal insult. Therefore it's fine to disagree strongly, for example "the point you've made about airsteps is complete rubbish because ..." is probably OK: what people don't seem to like is things like "take a look at yourself in the mirror, you may like what you see but others don't". The second statement is debating nothing but the image of the person it's directed too and it's personal, it's insulting and lessens both the sender and the person on the receiving end.

bigdjiver
30th-January-2005, 06:48 PM
Oh well, all this inspires some of us:

13:23 24/01/05

mirror mirror on the wall
you are unfairest of them all
you tell the truth of what you see
but you don't show the soul of me
the soul of me

You say I'm ugly and I'm old
I'm sure there's more that should be told
there's so much beauty to be seen
in what I know and where I've been
where I've been

And though my image does not bear inspection
perhaps there is only one that is perfection
I look at you and upon reflection
there is nothing to be learned
a lesson taught or dollar earned
so I say your view is spurned

I ain't gonna look
learn from your book
No, I ain't gonna look
in your direction.

mirror mirror on the wall
you are unfairest of them all
you tell the truth of what you see
but you don't show the soul of me
the soul of me

13:32 24/01/05

All rights reserved

and inspires Steven Mon across the Atlantic - MP3 (http://www.losertown.org/soundstage/music/mirror_by_dfc.mp3)

Lynn
31st-January-2005, 03:49 AM
A lot of what I would want to say on this topic has already been said on this thread - I like to read and participate in debates, there are certain topics that it is beneficial to discuss and there may be strong differences of opinion on those topics, and IMO this is a place where people can express those opinions...

BUT

...I don't like the comments that tend towards the personal - its OK if its just banter and both parties know that - but IMO it doesn't win me over to an arguement if an individual has to resort to personal insults to back up what they are saying.


A lot of people look at this website but it seems that very few are willing to post on it.

Could it be that these squabbles make this place look like somewhere where the new and nervous fear to post? I hope not. I've been on this forum for over a year, made a few posts along the way, met some lovely people, and managed to post on more serious subjects without getting caught up in any 'heated' debate or personal insults. There are more 'frivolous' threads if you really want to avoid the 'squabbles' but I find even in the threads that degenerate into more personal 'rows' there will also be some well argued and clearly presented points, and its possible to post in response to those and ignore the other posts.

Dreadful Scathe
1st-February-2005, 10:35 AM
Long live frivolous threads :)

Andy McGregor
1st-February-2005, 11:33 AM
Long live frivolous threads :)
:yeah: