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Gus
19th-January-2005, 03:34 PM
The real worls problem of drops has come to be an issue again in our area. Its partly due to;
drops being taught at weekenders
a local workshop that sort of covered drops
drops now being included in advanced classes
Being a 'safety first' type person I've always had major reservations about how drops are taught. The only drops I teach are (infrequently) as part of advanced classes; focusing on the safety aspects; with an alternative; covering only simple drops and leans. However, some instructors are teaching 'dynamic' drops, i.e. where the lady is doing into the drop with some velocity and/or the guy is moving into position while executing the move. Seeing what the punters are actualy doing onthe dancefloor (regardless of what they have been actualy taught) fills me full of dread. Over the last two weeks I've pulled two dancers off the floor before they hurt themsleves or anyone else.

Soooo ... how do you think drops should be taught?

Lounge Lizard
19th-January-2005, 03:52 PM
My thoughts are
Class night = safe dance floor dips
Advanced class night (preferably fixed couples) = intermediate drops
Workshop with instructor = only teach moves to suit ability of teacher AND class
Workshop with specialist = exactly same as above
Every move should have an alternative (wherever possible) to suit level of dancers ability and the dance environment
Safety and etiquette should always be taught before, during and after class.
Buying a DVD of drops & Seducers is of paramount importance :wink: :whistle: :grin:
LL

Stuart M
19th-January-2005, 04:06 PM
How about forcing every guy who wants to do drops to learn the lady's part?

Or using such a lesson as a threat to any drop monster caught at a venue.

Otherwise, everything LL said.

Andy McGregor
19th-January-2005, 04:56 PM
My safety advice is do not teach drops to social dancers.

The logic goes like this.

1. Drops are too dangerous to do on a social dance floor.
2. If you only dance socially you have no need or opportunity to do drops.
3. As social dancers have no need or opportunity to do drops there's no need to teach drops to them.

Competition dancers and cabaret dancers need to be able to do lifts and drops and should be taught them by someone who has the experience to do and teach them safely.

N.B. For the purposes of this post I have chosen to class a drop as any move that results in the girls head being lower than the guys waist. This doesn't include leans or seducers which are really dips.

Chef
19th-January-2005, 04:59 PM
My thoughts are
Class night = safe dance floor dips
Advanced class night (preferably fixed couples) = intermediate drops
Workshop with instructor = only teach moves to suit ability of teacher AND class
Workshop with specialist = exactly same as above
Every move should have an alternative (wherever possible) to suit level of dancers ability and the dance environment
Safety and etiquette should always be taught before, during and after class.
Buying a DVD of drops & Seducers is of paramount importance :wink: :whistle: :grin:
LL

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I learnt almost all of the drops that I and my partner use from Mr Lizard at specialist classes at weekenders and must admit that I love using them where music and space permit. I found it great that I was learning from someone that put safety first but quickly found that not having fixed partners was counterproductive. There were very few DROPS that I found could be used on a social dance floor (subject to space, drops ettiquette etc) because they had a huge potential for injury and both parties had to accomodate their partners height/weight/skill level. DIPS on the other hand could be used provided they were done smoothly, relatively slowly and in a controlled manner on any forewarned woman that has given her permission for such moves that isn't prone to throwing herself about.

Looking back I would have loved to have learnt drops in the same way that I learnt airsteps.

1) From specialist teachers (which I did with Mr Lizard)

2) A fixed regular partner.

3) In a group small enough that the instructor can come and give you individual attention to correct errors that you are making.

4) Where another couple is present and can act as spotters to protect the interests of both people practicing the drop.

Small groups and individual attention cost money but it is cheaper than phsyiotherapy.

My little tip for anyone doing drops - Never underestimate the ability of someone to walk backwards onto a dance floor right into the place where you were going to do a drop. There is a large amount of floor available but they want to be in your trouser cuff. How they know the exact time and place I will never know. It must be a sixth sense.

Happy Dancing

Andy McGregor
19th-January-2005, 05:06 PM
Never underestimate the ability of someone to walk backwards onto a dance floor right into the place where you were going to do a drop. There is a large amount of floor available but they want to be in your trouser cuff. How they know the exact time and place I will never know. It must be a sixth sense.

Happy Dancing

I actually confronted one of these guys in November at Camber. He was walking onto the dance floor backwards talking to his partner. I managed to dodge out of his way and take my partner with me - Mr Backwards just bumped into the dancer the other side of me instead. As he bounced off he came back towards me and I said "it would be safer if you walked forwards onto the dance floor". Mr Backwards seemed sincerely grateful for the advice :flower:

MartinHarper
19th-January-2005, 05:29 PM
Using such a lesson as a threat to any drop monster caught at a venue.

Is learning to follow so terrible that it can be used as a threat?

Northants Girly
19th-January-2005, 05:34 PM
Is learning to follow so terrible that it can be used as a threat?Depends who you are following :wink:

Lou
19th-January-2005, 05:34 PM
How about forcing every guy who wants to do drops to learn the lady's part?

Or using such a lesson as a threat to any drop monster caught at a venue.

It doesn't work. I've led our local infamous serial airstepper/dropper into a Ballroom Drop & he still continues. :rolleyes:

Lory
19th-January-2005, 06:40 PM
How about forcing every guy who wants to do drops to learn the lady's part?


I actually think this is a really good idea! And I'm NOT being flippant!

Men can see for themselves how it feels to put their trust in someone and because the average man is probably slightly heavier than the average woman, this will make them concentrate much more on their technique.

Another point is, most men aren't used to following, so this is a true test for the leaders technique, as to whether it will work with a woman who is not very used to drops. Instead of relying on the woman compensating for any bad technique!

Like me, for example, I sometimes come across a problem, where a new partner will judge that i'm a fairly experienced follower, therefore assumes that my dropping ability matches my dancing ability, which it doesn't! :tears:

Zebra Woman
19th-January-2005, 06:54 PM
I actually think this is a really good idea! And I'm NOT being flippant!

Men can see for themselves how it feels to put their trust in someone and because the average man is probably slightly heavier than the average woman, this will make them concentrate much more on their technique.

Another point is, most men aren't used to following, so this is a true test for the leaders technique, as to whether it will work with a woman who is not very used to drops. Instead of relying on the woman compensating for any bad technique!

Like me, for example, I sometimes come across a problem, where a new partner will judge that i'm a fairly experienced follower, therefore assumes that my dropping ability matches my dancing ability, which it doesn't! :tears:

I agree that men should feel what it's like to be dipped.

I also think the lady should swap over and try and dip (another lady :wink: ) just to feel how much the man relies on us to -

a) take our own weight
b) only actually dip when led to do so.

That would have to be done in a controlled environment/workshop with a spotter I think. Wouldn't want any more injuries, but it is an important eye opener IMHO.

The forces are enormous if the woman doesn't take her weight. I dipped an really slim eight stone woman in a class once, she threw herself at the floor uninvited. I so nearly went down with her, and I certainly pulled a few muscles catching her.

ZW :flower:

Chef
19th-January-2005, 07:35 PM
The forces are enormous if the woman doesn't take her weight. I dipped an really slim eight stone woman in a class once, she threw herself at the floor uninvited. I so nearly went down with her, and I certainly pulled a few muscles catching her.

ZW :flower:

The idea of women finding out what it like to do drops with other women sounds like a great idea but as ZW found it seems to invite injury.

Good technique (from both particpants) means that power isn't required. Lots of power comes in handy until you have that technique - it has its limits.

Just like Zebra Woman very small lady once took it into her head that something I had done was the lead into a drop and promptly threw herself backwards (a bit like doing a backward somersault off of a diving board) when I didn't have my arms around her. In an act of unthinking chivalry on my part I tried to get to the floor before she did, suceeded, and stoped her from hitting the wood. The cost - one severely strained back and a hamstring injury that took me out of dancing for 3 weeks despite her tiny size. Anyone that knows me know that I am more built like David Barker but without the looks.

Speaking ONLY from a mans point of view the aspects that give me most trouble (and the reason I will only do drops with my partner and a few trusted dancers) are these.

Most women are not accurate with their spinning. So if the drop involves any turning motion the woman could end up anywhere within 2 feet of where you left them in an almost random direction. The man then has to get to where they are and reposition himself to do a safe drop. In this case the only really safe thing is to do is abort the drop and prevent the woman going backwards by a firm hand in the middle of the shoulder blades.

The woman UNDER rotates and ends up in a position that is NOT at 90 degrees to the plane of the mans body. If the woman now went into a drop she would be leaning away from the man in a direction where the man has no strong base and will drag the man forward (and unfortunately on top of her followed by the man). She therefore suffers the double indignity of hitting the floor and being crushed by the bloke. The only option the man has is to either devise a way of ensuring the correct position or aborting the move.

Personally I like to practice by standing face up against a wall and doing my drop lunge out to one side. This means that if I ever got in the habit of leaning forward over my woman (risking back injury) I would be sharply reminded not to do so by the feeling of nose scraping wall. If I had also brought my left knee forward so I might place my knee under the womans back (and risk injuring her back) I am reminded not to by the feeling of knee scraping against wall.

When I practice these things with my partner at home I always arrange to have a large peice of foam under where her landing zone might be. Better safe than sorry.

There is is no better way than getting specialised tutition from someone like Mr Lizard AND getting him to check what you are doing to ENSURE you are doing it right (if you can find him during a quiet time).

Happy Dancing.

RogerR
19th-January-2005, 08:54 PM
There are degrees of drop, Gentle leans are safer than full flying aerials, with lots of moves arrayed in order between the extremes. The more extreme the move the more dedicated the dancers and their teachers must be til the most extreme can only be taught in a 1 to 1 situation with mats and approved PPE.

As for reversing the roles I suspect that few women could safely catch their male partners in a full drop without risking injury. Certainly asking a normal woman to lift my 18stone in industry would be contra to all safe working practise and legislation.

Lets offer an odd perspective, Offer say one or two tracks a night for jumps only,

Clive Long
19th-January-2005, 10:50 PM
Hi,

I was introduced to drops at a Camber weekend event in Martin Elliot's class.

He emphasized style & safety and described some “common principles” that underlie most (all?) drops. The key items I remember are:

Stable frame for the guy
Woman supports herself on leg nearest the man
Woman keeps her “non-sitting” leg on the floor (important to avoid the couple tipping over)
Letting woman down in a vertical plane

Re-reading the above, I feel drops are not just a "guy thing" i.e. don't drop a lady who doesn't know the basics.

I'm sure these rules are “bent” as one gets more experienced – but since that class I have been able to drop (and retrieve) ladies (and not just size 8 waifs) with confidence, safety and a little style (admittedly on simple drops).

In my opinion, aerials form no part of social dancing, especially at the body-squashers held at South Kensington and Hammersmith. The aerials are selfish as they take room from other dancers and are intimidating to anyone within collision distance. Those guys who engage in aerials in social dancing have some serious inadequacy. :angry:

Clive

Andy McGregor
20th-January-2005, 01:43 AM
In my opinion, aerials form no part of social dancing, especially at the body-squashers held at South Kensington and Hammersmith. The aerials are selfish as they take room from other dancers and are intimidating to anyone within collision distance. Those guys who engage in aerials in social dancing have some serious inadequacy. :angry:

Clive
:yeah:

My wife, Sue is one of those size 8 waifs. Some guys seem to think she must love drops and aerials - she doesn't. One guy (who is locally called 'Ug' but is sometimes called 'Neanderthal') grabbed Sue for a dance. He regularly does surprise lifts, drops and seducers - I felt it was my duty to tell him that if he tries a drop or an airstep on Sue I would kill him. Even though he's about a foot taller than me* and weighs about the same as a hairy mammoth he got the message. I say tell these savages to get their act together :angry:

*Maybe someone told him that I'm a trained killer** :wink:

**I think the pink wig and tutu I was wearing might have scared him too :devil:

ElaineB
20th-January-2005, 10:02 AM
:yeah:

My wife, Sue is one of those size 8 waifs. Some guys seem to think she must love drops and aerials - she doesn't. One guy (who is locally called 'Ug' but is sometimes called 'Neanderthal') grabbed Sue for a dance. He regularly does surprise lifts, drops and seducers - I felt it was my duty to tell him that if he tries a drop or an airstep on Sue I would kill him. Even though he's about a foot taller than me* and weighs about the same as a hairy mammoth he got the message. I say tell these savages to get their act together :angry:

*Maybe someone told him that I'm a trained killer** :wink:

**I think the pink wig and tutu I was wearing might have scared him too :devil:

I think we call him 'Flintstone Man' in Bristol.......... :rofl:

Re pink wig and tutu, presume the colours clashed then? :whistle: :rofl:


Elaine

Lory
20th-January-2005, 10:49 AM
I think we call him 'Flintstone Man' in Bristol.......... :rofl:


'Godzilla man' in London! :rofl:

Minnie M
20th-January-2005, 10:59 AM
'Godzilla man' in London! :rofl:

think UG suits him best

word of warning - never start a conversation with him - he follows you around the room still talking :eek:

Chef
20th-January-2005, 11:16 AM
My partner and I only know him as "Oaf" because of the village idiot nature of the things that he does. Because of the daft things that he does the experienced women avoid him like the plague leaving him targetting the newer ladies. :( Watching this this makes me feel very guilty. I feel I should do something. I have said to him that certain things he does are not a good idea on a social dance floor with a completely unknowing and inexperienced woman but it doesn't seem to make any difference. :what:

When I see it all happpen again I feel like I am standing by while watching a pensioner being mugged.

Happy Dancing

Zebra Woman
20th-January-2005, 12:08 PM
'Godzilla man' in London! :rofl:

We call him 'The Gorilla' in the Ceroc central area. :rofl:

He's has let me plummet from a star jump (which I had no choice about) and I sprained my ankle. It was my first dance on my first ever weekender, Grrrrrr...... :angry:

Gus
20th-January-2005, 12:14 PM
We call him 'The Gorilla' in the Ceroc central area. HOLD ON ... everyone knows this pratt, everyone knows he is dangerous, uncouth and not overly well acquainted with hygenic practices .... so why hasnt he been banned???? :angry:

David Franklin
20th-January-2005, 12:22 PM
HOLD ON ... everyone knows this pratt, everyone knows he is dangerous, uncouth and not overly well acquainted with hygenic practices .... so why hasnt he been banned???? :angry:Because you have to say this for him... He's BIG... :what: Seriously, between his lack of understanding what people are trying to tell him, somewhat abrupt attitude and lack of socialisation, plus the fact that he is a very big man, I can understand most organisers waiting to avoid potential confrontation.

So, have YOU banned him...? :devil:

Dave

under par
20th-January-2005, 12:25 PM
This bloke certainly gets around a bit.......various quotes



We call him 'The Gorilla' in the Ceroc central area.

as "Oaf" because of the village idiot nature of the .....snip

'Godzilla man' in London!......snip

who is locally called 'Ug' but is sometimes called 'Neanderthal')......snip

same as a hairy mammoth ....snip

I think we call him 'Flintstone Man' in Bristol...snip


Is he a master of disguise?

If we know one of his numerous identities maybe.......

we can stop him travelling around the country?

IDENTIFY his Car and let the POLICE know about this "SERIAL INJURER" :whistle:

Alternatively BAN him from all venues. :yeah:

Gus
20th-January-2005, 12:37 PM
Because you have to say this for him... He's BIG..... I can understand most organisers waiting to avoid potential confrontation.

So, have YOU banned him...? :devil: When I opened my first club he had travelled as afar as Stafford so we were concerned about Ug visiting us. Our criteria was clear ... if hew came to the venue he'd be gently 'warned' about what was acceptable ... and I'd make sure that crew kept an eye on him. If he should transgress then he'd be straight out the door. As for size ... beer really a problem .. we've got a number of crew and friends who are combat capable if it came to that ... but I've found that no matter how aggressive or big someone is, words not muscle achieve the objective best.

PS .. this isn’t a one off. there is a local cowboy instructor who comes to our venues who likes doing aerials :tears: We have officially warned him and always keep an eye on him. I would LOVE for him to transgress ... but I think there would be a queue of people wanting to throw him off the premises ... preferably literally :devil:

Northants Girly
20th-January-2005, 12:45 PM
[QUOTE=Zebra Woman]We call him 'The Gorilla' in the Ceroc central area. :rofl: QUOTE]

This maybe the guy I call the Jolly Green Giant - cos he sings as he dances! (and the first time I met him he wore a green T-shirt)

Complete nightmare though :sick:

Chef
20th-January-2005, 12:45 PM
It seems we all agree that we want drops taught to us by a specialist.

So what makes a drops specialist?

Who says that they are a drops specialist?

It is not like there is an approved/qualified/peer reviewed training course that says this person or that is a qualified drops specialist.

How does the punter know they are about to be trained by a drops specialist?

under par
20th-January-2005, 12:53 PM
It seems we all agree that we want drops taught to us by a specialist.

So what makes a drops specialist?

Who says that they are a drops specialist?

It is not like there is an approved/qualified/peer reviewed training course that says this person or that is a qualified drops specialist.

How does the punter know they are about to be trained by a drops specialist?


The punter will have a better idea afterwards when sitting in A&E !!UNFORTUNATELY ..

as there is no standard.

MartinHarper
20th-January-2005, 12:54 PM
Most men aren't used to following, so this is a true test for the leaders technique, as to whether it will work with a woman who is not very used to drops.

I suppose the danger would be that the leaders would be compensating for their followers' lack of technique, rather than learning to do the drop properly.

David Franklin
20th-January-2005, 01:08 PM
It seems we all agree that we want drops taught to us by a specialist.

So what makes a drops specialist?Not sure I do agree, though I think it does depend on what you mean by specialist. I wouldn't want to be taught a drop by someone who wasn't intimately skilled with doing that drop, but that might not be a drops specialist - it might be that's the only drop they do! Or drops might only be a small part of their expertise - I would be happy to be taught drops by Nigel/Nina, but wouldn't call them drops specialists...

Dave

Chef
20th-January-2005, 02:44 PM
Not sure I do agree, though I think it does depend on what you mean by specialist. I wouldn't want to be taught a drop by someone who wasn't intimately skilled with doing that drop, but that might not be a drops specialist - it might be that's the only drop they do! Or drops might only be a small part of their expertise - I would be happy to be taught drops by Nigel/Nina, but wouldn't call them drops specialists...

Dave

Would it be better if I rephrased it to say.

We seem to agree that we want to be taught by someone COMPETANT but how do we know that a particular teacher is competant?

If you saw a couple/teacher/anyone doing a drop or announcing a class what would you look for in order to be able decided that they were competant?

I know you are a very experienced dancer and by now know what you are looking for in a teacher. But what about the ones on the ladder up that don't have that eye for a competant teacher? Do you see what I am asking? When you are looking backwards we can say this teacher ws good or that teacher was bad but how can you sort out the good from the bad when you are relatively new?

What are the characteristics of a good drops teacher(s)?

Happy Dancing

ChrisA
20th-January-2005, 03:21 PM
I know you are a very experienced dancer and by now know what you are looking for in a teacher. But what about the ones on the ladder up that don't have that eye for a competant teacher? Do you see what I am asking? When you are looking backwards we can say this teacher ws good or that teacher was bad but how can you sort out the good from the bad when you are relatively new?

I wonder how well someone is able to learn if they're not self-aware enough to know whether someone is a good teacher - if they actually experience their teaching, that is.

Kids at school seem to be able to distinguish the good teachers from the bad ones.

Is it that different for dancers?

Chris

David Franklin
20th-January-2005, 03:30 PM
Would it be better if I rephrased it to say.

We seem to agree that we want to be taught by someone COMPETANT but how do we know that a particular teacher is competant?Sure. Wasn't trying to be pedantic, but Peter is the only person I'd really consider a drops specialist, so it does affect the answer.


If you saw a couple/teacher/anyone doing a drop or announcing a class what would you look for in order to be able decided that they were competant?I think it's very hard to tell just by watching someone dance - you can probably weed out a lot of the incompetants (bending way over their partner, legs in the air etc...), but it's harder to work in the other direction. And just because someone does a move well with their regular partner doesn't mean they can teach it. When it comes to someone actually teaching a move, I do like to see them talk about safety, body mechanics, center of mass, head positions, common mistakes, what can go wrong. I also think a big thing is the correct environment - lots of space, individual attention etc... At somewhere like Camber, often the moves end up being taught by 'Chinese whispers', and it's hard for the teacher to see what's happening at the far end of the room.


When you are looking backwards we can say this teacher ws good or that teacher was bad but how can you sort out the good from the bad when you are relatively new?Truth is, I've worked out most drops I use from clips, movies, etc, and I'd hate to say I use correct technique on them myself, so it's really hard to say. Thinking of the teachers who come to mind (Will/Kate, Nigel/Nina, Peter, Amir), following their instructions makes the drops physically "easy". I know it's all relative, but they will often have advice (e.g. "let the arm go straight here", "lift up for a moment to unweight the woman") that, when followed, makes a big difference. With the typical teacher, you don't get any of those revelations - it tends to be "hold here and here, lower the woman, not too far", and that's about it.

Dave

Andy McGregor
20th-January-2005, 03:40 PM
My safety advice is do not teach drops to social dancers.

The logic goes like this.

1. Drops are too dangerous to do on a social dance floor.
2. If you only dance socially you have no need or opportunity to do drops.
3. As social dancers have no need or opportunity to do drops there's no need to teach drops to them.

Competition dancers and cabaret dancers need to be able to do lifts and drops and should be taught them by someone who has the experience to do and teach them safely.

N.B. For the purposes of this post I have chosen to class a drop as any move that results in the girls head being lower than the guys waist. This doesn't include leans or seducers which are really dips.

I'm still waiting for someone to defend performing drops on a social dance floor.

Come on!

I'm waiting ...

David Franklin
20th-January-2005, 03:43 PM
I wonder how well someone is able to learn if they're not self-aware enough to know whether someone is a good teacher - if they actually experience their teaching, that is.

Kids at school seem to be able to distinguish the good teachers from the bad ones.

Is it that different for dancers?I think so. The big difference is that at school, you (usually!) don't have to worry about the teacher actually providing bad information. With dancing, unfortunately, you can't make the same assumptions. When you started, would you have known to avoid a teacher who advised 'bouncing' to keep the beat? :devil:

With drops and lifts in particular, there are often hidden 'tricks' that make a huge difference to how difficult or dangerous a move is. If neither you or the teacher know the tricks, you don't think they're incompetant, you just think "Oh, this is a really hard move". For example, I remember when the 'nosebleed' was the drop everyone wanted to do, and a well known, very strong Ceroc teacher was doing it with someone. Because he wasn't doing any of the 'unweighting', it was a very physical move - he was only just holding her up, even though he was 3 times her size. I'd only seen people with similar size discrepancies do it, so of course, I assumed "Oh, you have to be really strong to do that move". I never realised it was just bad technique.

Dave

Chef
20th-January-2005, 03:48 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to defend performing drops on a social dance floor.

Come on!

I'm waiting ...

Well. Isn't anyone going to invite the forum rotweiller to bite them? :D :D

Andy - that was a joke there. Please don't bite me.

Happy dancing.


David Franklin - Utterly agree with all you say.

MartinHarper
20th-January-2005, 04:05 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to defend performing drops on a social dance floor.

I'm going to a social dance floor this Saturday that will likely have periods where there is only one couple dancing.

Chef
20th-January-2005, 04:10 PM
I really think I am going to regret this but

Andy - Why do you think that well performed drops between two competant people are dangerous on the social dance floor?

I have been to many dance venues over the last few years and I have heard of one serious injury (at Dorking due to a serious incompetant) and two head clashes - not resulting in broken skin - due to drops over those years.

Over those same years I have had muscles torn by hand yankers, skin ripped out by rings, bracelets, long finger nails and watch straps (why do people wear watches at dances? - they know when to go home - the music stops). My partner has had her eyelashes ripped out by a watch strap, feet stamped on by high heels, muscles torn by men that yank her around, bruised by peolpe that grip her hand or arm to yank her around. I even had a bit of my cornea scraped off by another dancer accidentally poking their finger in my eye.

If you want to ban drops because they are dangerous even when practiced competantly and according to the rules well publicised by Mr Lizard then there seems to be an equally powerful argument for banning the whole of dancing on the basis of the other injuries that I have experienced or witnessed.

At which point do you get around to banning everything?

I feel a very long conversation coming on when we meet at Maidstone on saturday.

Happy dancing

ChrisA
20th-January-2005, 04:10 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to defend performing drops on a social dance floor.

Come on!

I'm waiting ...



1. Drops are too dangerous to do on a social dance floor.

Drops aren't dangerous at all if they're done safely on a social dance floor that is not at all crowded, in a part of the floor away from other dancers.

I take the view that they're Ok if:

... you can be certain that you won't expose your partner to danger from others, and
... you can be certain that you won't inconvenience other dancers (by making them have to avoid your partner).

Opportunities as good as this are rare but they do happen.

If you take the view that to prevent the eejits doing it when they shouldn't, you have to make a sweeping generalisation and say no drops, ever, on a social dance floor, then your argument has merit.

Otherwise, I think it would be preferable to take measures against people who dance inconsiderately and/or dangerously - and not just because of drops.

But as we've discussed before, there isn't the will on the part of the organisers to take these measures, which in my opinion is a disgrace. :mad: :tears:

If the danger and inconvenience aspect can be dealt with, then your 2 and 3, namely:



2. If you only dance socially you have no need or opportunity to do drops.
3. As social dancers have no need or opportunity to do drops there's no need to teach drops to them.


... become irrelevant.

If there was the political will to enforce a no-drops policy, and do something about those that contravened it, why should it not be possible also to enforce a no-dangerous-dancing policy instead?

Chris

Gadget
20th-January-2005, 04:22 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to defend performing drops on a social dance floor.
OK :D:devil:
If the dance floor is quiet and there is room to do them - why not? Some ladies enjoy them and they can give an extra 'wow' factor to your dance.
Assuming that your partner is a willing victim; if you don't know what you are doing, you will only injure yourself and/or your partner. If you need practice, then you can and there is more likleyhood of finding someone to ask exactly where to improve. The other clientelle get to see a spectical and are entertained. No-one is hurt, no-one is prevented from dancing, no other couples on the dance floor are at any more risk of injury than normal. Drops only really put the couple performing them at risk (assuming there is room to do them). If they want to take that risk without endangering others, then why not?

LilyB
20th-January-2005, 04:39 PM
.... I feel drops are not just a "guy thing" ... Actually I think it is very much a "guy thing". How many of you guys have had women say to you "I want you to do lots of drops with me" or similar? Even where a woman allegedly throws herself into a drop, it is more likely to be a case of bad following/leading, rather than an innate desire on her part to do drops. Having said that, I believe many women do not mind - some even enjoy - doing drops with guys they trust, and/or those who are able to execute them well. Unfortunately only a very small percentage of guys fall into these 2 categories. The trouble is, most guys believe they are in that small percentage, particularly those who are only able to get away with "doing" drops because their partners bear the brunt of the hard work (and often the injuries :tears: ).


.... Those guys who engage in aerials in social dancing have some serious inadequacy. :angry: :yeah:
Again (and more obviously so), I think this is purely a "guy thing". I don't know of many cases where women either ask their partners to do aerials or simply launch themselves into aerials on an unsuspecting partner. (There are, of course, rare exceptions :devil: )

If my thinking is correct and you guys out there agree that the urge to do drops and aerials is a "guy thing" - even if you personally do not have that urge (thank God) - it would be really helpful :flower: and very chivalrous :worthy: if you guys took a stand on behalf of us ladies and confronted other men you see doing aerials and potentially dangerous drops in social dancing. Just imagine it was your wife/girlfriend/partner they were doing aerials/dangerous drops with - and it may well be if you don't discourage these fellas - and I'm sure you will realise you'll be doing everyone else a favour. In fact, this attitude should become the norm for all guys who do not like to see ladies being given a hard and dangerous time by other guys who over-rate their own abilities and have no regard for their partners' safety.

I am acutely aware that quite a few forumites have said often enough that us women should be telling off the men who do these dangerous moves with us. Unfortunately, reality is such that 95% of women cannot bring themselves to do so or cannot find the opportunity. So, men ... can we rely on your help? Or is chivalry dead ..... :wink: ...... :tears:

LilyB

PS Apologies for drifting slightly off-topic

Bill
20th-January-2005, 05:23 PM
Unfortunately, reality is such that 95% of women cannot bring themselves to do so or cannot find the opportunity. So, men ... can we rely on your help? Or is chivalry dead ..... :wink: ...... :tears:

LilyB

PS Apologies for drifting slightly off-topic


But if I see a man doing a drop I think is dangerous but the woman is smiling I will probably assume she is enjoying it then I shouldn't interfere .. to imagine she will tell him she would rather not do drops after the dance has finished.

More difficult if you're not at your own venue. I've seen men do what I thought were doing drops when it was really quite dangerous but as I'm not on my own territory feel I can't say anything.

Maybe if the women had a word with the teacher or venue manager and complained the culprit could be warned. And as Lisa reminded the woman last night, it's also their responsibility to tell the men whether they do drops or not. If a man continues to do drops, even when he's been told not to then women should just refuse to dance with him. That might be a very effective way of getting him to change his ways ....... or maybe not :rolleyes:

Andy McGregor
20th-January-2005, 05:24 PM
I am acutely aware that quite a few forumites have said often enough that us women should be telling off the men who do these dangerous moves with us. Unfortunately, reality is such that 95% of women cannot bring themselves to do so or cannot find the opportunity. So, men ... can we rely on your help? Or is chivalry dead ..... :wink: ...... :tears:

I've spoken to guys who do drops and lifts dangerously at many venues. I've tried to make it non-confrontational on every occasion. And each time I've enjoyed a confrontation :tears:

My advice is to speak to the organiser and point out the person who's being dangerous and ask them to do something about it. A few months ago at Hipsters I spoke to a guy who'd done a ballroom drop on a crowded night. I'd actually had to jerk my partner to a stop on a travelling return because a woman's head had just appeared in the, previously vacant bit of floor where I'd chosen to place my partner! The dangerous dropster told me he could dance how he liked and that I should give him more room. I pointed out that the space around him was already much more than any other dancer nearby - he started to look threatening so I backed down. At this point I walked off and spoke to Franco. An hour later the mad dropster was still at it - so I told Franco "I've warned you that someone is behaving dangerously in your venue, if someone is injured and you haven't taken action you will be liable for damages as you have been negligent in not doing something about a danger you have been alerted to" (or something like that). Franco blanched and moved very quickly to sort things out. Well done Franco* :clap:

*must be worth a lifetime pass to Camber :whistle:

ChrisA
20th-January-2005, 06:13 PM
I've spoken to guys who do drops and lifts dangerously at many venues. I've tried to make it non-confrontational on every occasion. And each time I've enjoyed a confrontation :tears:

This has very much been my experience, too.


dropsterI think the profile of the mad droppers (how could you grace them with the 'ster' suffix, Andy??? :what: ) is such that you're almost guaranteed a confrontation.

These are guys that are intent on showing off their physical prowess, and do so irrespective of whether it inconveniences or endangers anyone else on the floor.

They inflict drops on their partners, often without permission, sought or actual, often dangerously.

And just while they're showing off, or just afterwards, some other guy comes up and tells them off. :eek:

No matter how nicely you try and do it, guys like that are wired up to take it as a threat to their manhood, which, I expect, must be pretty small anyway for them to have to prove themselves that way :devil:

I agree with Andy that the right route is to lobby the organisers. And as I've said before (and will probably say again), the fact that the organisers (in most cases) do not have the will to take effective measures against the people that do dangerous stuff on the dancefloor is a disgrace.

Chris

foxylady
20th-January-2005, 06:39 PM
.......threat to their manhood, which, I expect, must be pretty small anyway for them to have to prove themselves that way .....
Chris

:yeah: :wink:

Time for some research girls.... Quality/type of dancing vs size of manhood....

Chef
20th-January-2005, 07:11 PM
:yeah: :wink:

Time for some research girls.... Quality/type of dancing vs size of manhood....

Me. Me, Me. Pick me. Pick Me. Me first. :nice:

under par
20th-January-2005, 07:35 PM
Me. Me, Me. Pick me. Pick Me. Me first. :nice:

Sorry Chef you will have to join the queue, the back of it is way over there... :drool:

ElaineB
20th-January-2005, 08:44 PM
I also think a big thing is the correct environment - lots of space, individual attention etc... At somewhere like Camber, often the moves end up being taught by 'Chinese whispers', and it's hard for the teacher to see what's happening at the far end of the room.

Dave


I attended a work shop in January 2003, (not Camber!) having been dancing for seven months. My partner and I (not Simon!) were at the back of the room and the move that was being taught was where the lady is made to lean towards the man (facing them) and is then dragged forwards, with the man going backwards. Unfortunately, neither or us got the hang of this particular move and it resulted in 'backwards' stress being put on my knee. I now have damaged to the cruciate ligament in one knee.

Personally, I would rather complicated drops were taught on a one to one basis or in a small group, where the teachers can see everything that is going on.

My phsyo was also amazed that with the exception of very few classes, none of us are taught to stretch or warm up or down before indulging in quite an exerting excercise.



Elaine

RogerR
20th-January-2005, 10:12 PM
For big drops my preferred class size is one couple ie 1;1 tuition with mats and PPE.

for mid range drops a class of three couples works well even so the tutor must teach then each couple separately must try the move with the others spotting. That way no-one gets too tired to do the move well.

Little leans and truly sociable moves can posibly be taught in a small class but this reduces the teacher's connection with the class.

ChrisA
20th-January-2005, 11:08 PM
the back of it is way over there... :drool:
Boasting again, Paul?

:devil:

Gus
20th-January-2005, 11:15 PM
This has very much been my experience, too.

I think the profile of the mad droppers (how could you grace them with the 'ster' suffix, Andy??? :what: ) is such that you're almost guaranteed a confrontation.

These are guys that are intent on showing off their physical prowess, and do so irrespective of whether it inconveniences or endangers anyone else on the floor.I agree with you to an extent ... but I think its also an extension of 'Intermediaterism' ... i.e. that sudden rush after a years dancing or so to try to do as many flash moves as possible. I'm not sure where this impetus comes from. With one exception, I cant think of any of the advanced dnacers who in social dancing executes many drops.

Having said that we have a local problem that a couple of teachers think that teaching drops is a cool way to approve their adoring acolytes :( Besides that ... it may well be a macho thing, a compensation response ...... (Could it really be that BIG drops = small pr*ck :whistle: ).

Gary
21st-January-2005, 12:08 AM
... How many of you guys have had women say to you "I want you to do lots of drops with me" or similar?
Well I have (not that often, granted).

Graham
21st-January-2005, 01:15 AM
How about forcing every guy who wants to do drops to learn the lady's part?
I'm actually better at the lady's part. However since the rest of my following isn't up to much I don't get much practice!

MartinHarper
21st-January-2005, 11:23 AM
How many of you guys have had women say to you "I want you to do lots of drops with me" or similar?

I have a friend who often talks about how she enjoys drops, and occasionally wishes I would do some. She can't figure out what men get out of them - where's the fun in lifting weights?

Your post was a useful counter-balance to that influence.

Zebra Woman
21st-January-2005, 11:23 AM
I love dips drops and leans, I am one of those women who will occasionally ask for drops. For this to happen, my partner would be someone I trust and the floor wouldn't be crowded. I'm prepared to take the risk with the right partner. There are plenty or show off macho types about who probably do have issues about their masculinity, needless to say I would want to be put into a drop by them, or dance near them.

Over 7 years I have had 3 accidents with drops, and none of them have put me off. I have been slammed down on to the man's knee , jarring my back, and banged heads once, and kicked on the head once (lightly).

I have had far more and much worse accidents from being yanked into normal moves, and these injuries can take months to heal. Some never have :tears: .

My absolute scariest move is a backhander, a rushed one. :eek:


ZW :flower:

Andy McGregor
21st-January-2005, 12:28 PM
:yeah: :wink:

Time for some research girls.... Quality/type of dancing vs size of manhood....

Does that mean it gets bigger when you get better?


(Could it really be that BIG drops = small pr*ck ).

Or that doing lots of BIG drops makes it smaller?

And does that also mean that women can't do drops - like they can't throw a ball? :whistle:

David Franklin
21st-January-2005, 12:35 PM
My absolute scariest move is a backhander, a rushed one. :eek: Another high profile Ceroc teacher taught this once, explaining you had to "force the woman's arm round if necessary - be masterful"! :eek: :eek: :tears: :angry:

N.B. I realise I've mentioned Ceroc teachers twice in a bad light in this thread now. Not meant to be a slam on Ceroc, almost the opposite: I just expect better from Ceroc - bad advice from J Random Cowboy is a given...

Dave

RogerR
21st-January-2005, 09:33 PM
There's a fine line between leading firmly,decisively and assertively, and being rough and forcefull. Probably this is a good indication of a standard of dance of a leader.

Andreas
24th-January-2005, 01:14 PM
I agree that men should feel what it's like to be dipped.

I also think the lady should swap over and try and dip (another lady :wink: ) just to feel how much the man relies on us to -

a) take our own weight
b) only actually dip when led to do so.

That would have to be done in a controlled environment/workshop with a spotter I think. Wouldn't want any more injuries, but it is an important eye opener IMHO.

The forces are enormous if the woman doesn't take her weight. I dipped an really slim eight stone woman in a class once, she threw herself at the floor uninvited. I so nearly went down with her, and I certainly pulled a few muscles catching her.

ZW :flower:

Couldn't agree more. A lady that throws herself into a drop is just as dangerous as a guy with bad technique. :yeah:

I do not object to teaching drops. In NZ we regularly had them in advanced classes. Problem with that is that you got a couple of idiots who drop their girls into the path of other dancers or on a too crowded floor. However, it is also up to the teachers to make sure safety aspects are on top of the list.

I have never had a problem telling somebody off in front of a class if they did soomething stupid. Sure it is not great for business but it is also not good for the health of the respective partners if the teacher doesn't say a word ;)

Alice
14th-September-2006, 11:03 AM
Where's the option for "depends what country you're in"? :whistle:

:devil:

Some interesting insights though...

David Bailey
14th-September-2006, 12:06 PM
Where's the option for "depends what country you're in"? :whistle:

Why, do people fall a different way Down Under? :innocent:

Alice
14th-September-2006, 12:28 PM
Why, do people fall a different way Down Under? :innocent:
Yeah, we fall anti-clockwise instead of clockwise, just like water down the plughole:whistle:


We're also taught dips and drops more regularly so are generally more confident with them.

NZ Monkey
14th-September-2006, 12:37 PM
Why, do people fall a different way Down Under? :innocent:We fall up. It comes from being in the Southern Hemisphere :yum:

Drops are taught in intermediate classes Down Under, so much more time and energy is devoted to making sure the class is getting it right (consistently) than here. Regular teachers can keep reiterating the important technical points over many weeks after all, while a workshop teacher may be fantastic but can't keep an eye on their students when they go to their regular classes and venues. Workshop teachers are not in a position to curb bad habits that develop as the punters get more confident/lazy.

Almost every intermediate class I attended had either a drop, layback variation, dip or lean in it for instance. There is lot's of reinforcement of the fine points because of that.

Edit - Alice beat me to to it. Do you *ever* do any work Alice? :innocent:

Alice
14th-September-2006, 02:29 PM
Edit - Alice beat me to to it. Do you *ever* do any work Alice? :innocent:
Of course I do- when the Forum's down!! :innocent: :rofl: :rofl:

The same occurs in Sydney- in fact I think I remember doing a lean in my very first class. The regularity means that people have a lot more opportunity to practice in a class situation, so tend to be more confident freestyling. And trickier moves can be taught in an intermediate class than you could probably get away with safely here.

Safety tips are usually taught before doing every dip/drop/lean, as well as tips on how to stand correctly and/or hold your weight.

Also teachers encourage people in a class to tell their partner if they're not comfortable for what ever reason doing a certain move- they nearly always teach a modified alternative if the move is tricky or likely to cause problems for those with a bad back/knee etc.

timbp
14th-September-2006, 02:40 PM
Do you *ever* do any work Alice? :innocent:
I'm not sure what she's doing in England. But when she was in Sydney, "work" involved coffee and chocolate (and posting on the forums). Most of us have to leave work to have a good coffee or chocolate.

whitetiger1518
14th-September-2006, 02:44 PM
I'm not sure what she's doing in England. But when she was in Sydney, "work" involved coffee and chocolate (and posting on the forums). Most of us have to leave work to have a good coffee or chocolate.

Sorry - off topic again, but then aren't we usually?

Why wait to leave work before getting chocolate? Why not get it delivered??

My personal favourite:

http://www.cadburygiftsdirect.co.uk/asp/product_description.asp?recorprod=1&product=454&recor=1&PT_ID=&V=570


Sorry - shouldn't have added this at all - will mean that there aren't any more for me ;)

Whitetiger

Alice
14th-September-2006, 02:44 PM
I'm not sure what she's doing in England. But when she was in Sydney, "work" involved coffee and chocolate (and posting on the forums). Most of us have to leave work to have a good coffee or chocolate.
True.

Still don't know why I left that job...:tears: :tears:
:wink:

Oh yeah, it was to harass New Zealanders in London:whistle:

NZ Monkey
14th-September-2006, 02:51 PM
Oh yeah, it was to harass New Zealanders in London:whistle:Something she is excelling at as it happens.:respect:

Alice
14th-September-2006, 03:02 PM
Sorry - off topic again, but then aren't we usually?

Why wait to leave work before getting chocolate? Why not get it delivered??

My personal favourite:

http://www.cadburygiftsdirect.co.uk/asp/product_description.asp?recorprod=1&product=454&recor=1&PT_ID=&V=570


Sorry - shouldn't have added this at all - will mean that there aren't any more for me ;)

Whitetiger
(Sorry didn't see this before)
I didn't leave work to get the chocolate or the coffee- that was provided free from our warehouse downstairs:drool: :drool:

Mmmm....high quality Belgian chocolate after lunch:drool: