Prince Harry (whats all the fuss about ?) [Archive]

14th-January-2005, 11:14 AM

It is odd how it's a "Nazi uniform". Would we say that the clothes worn by the UK troops in the gulf were "Labour party uniforms"?

Could the Swastika give it away, perhaps?!? The Swastika, once changed, reversed, etc, became the symbol for that particular political party, the Reich and all it stood for. Hence, he went as a Nazi, and not as a German Soldier.

That said, I don't know what the party was... e.g. At "singalonga Sound Of Music" there were Nazis, and somehow it seemed ok: it was relevant to the film and they were dressed as the "baddie." So, was it a themed party?

If not, it takes a special kind of stupid to think it would be ok for a British Royal (albeit of German descent!!!!!!) to get away with that.

As to the issue of the "friend" that sold him down the river.... :angry:

Dreadful Scathe

14th-January-2005, 11:37 AM

I think the theme was something to do with the Colonies - I cant remember the British Empire including Germany at any point :) I cant see what the big deal is, it was wearing a historical uniform and it was a fancy dress party. Big Deal. If we forget about the past it comes back to haunt us. There are plenty of innapropraite places to wear some costumes e.g. A toga for a job interview, a playboy bunny outfit in church or a nazi uniform at a bar mitzvah but for a normal party ? If Ceroc had a themed 'military' night would it be so strange if someone came in a German WW2 uniform ?

MartinHarper

14th-January-2005, 12:35 PM

I think the theme was something to do with the Colonies - I cant remember the British Empire including Germany at any point :)

Germany had colonies. One of Hitler's catchphrases was that Germany deserved "its place in the sun".

MartinHarper

14th-January-2005, 12:36 PM

Hence, he went as a Nazi, and not as a German Soldier.

Was membership of the Nazi party required to serve in the German army during WW2?

Dreadful Scathe

14th-January-2005, 12:55 PM

Was membership of the Nazi party required to serve in the German army during WW2?
Heres some info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

I can't find anything to say membership of the Nazi party was mandatory, which makes the uproar over Prince harry all the stupider as they cant say he was dressed as a Nazi, only that he was dressed as a German Soldier!

ElaineB

14th-January-2005, 01:21 PM

Did a quick straw pole in my Office about this - everyone thinks it is completely overblown.....the Guy made a mistake, has apologised........lets move on!

The Royal Family hold a priviledged position, there is no doubt, but for a private party, where presumably the age range was early 20's, it is a shame that someone thought it would be a good idea to leek a photo to the press.

Have they no compassion - we, the Public, could have been saved from all this!! Instead of which it is a complete non issue, to rank with another story I heard on radio 4 this morning - someone has bred a 3 foot patio rose with three different coloured roses on it!!

I am sorry if anyone takes offence to Prince Harry's choice of outfit, but I hope they see it for what it was - I doubt if he really tried to offend anyone - he made an error!

Elaine

Graham

14th-January-2005, 01:26 PM

No, membership in the Nazi party was not a requirement to serve in the German armed forces, which was, after all, a mostly conscripted army. As I understand it he was wearing what was basically an Afrika Corps uniform, which would have been worn by ordinary German soldiers who were not necessarily Nazi party members. However the swastika armband was a Nazi device, and was never part of the Afrika Corps uniform, but was no doubt mistakenly added to the costume by whoever prepared it, as no doubt lots of people are under the incorrect impression that all/most members of the German armed forces wore it, having seen numerous depictions of SS uniforms, which did have such an armband (as did the Nazi party itself, which is what Hitler is usually seen wearing).

However, all that's so much trivia. I agree it's a lot of fuss over not very much: let's face it, thousands of people have worn similar costumes to parties in the past, and nobody assumes that in doing so they were actually Nazi sympathisers, any more than someone who went as Julius Caesar would be assumed to have ambitions to conquer Gaul.

philsmove

14th-January-2005, 01:37 PM

.....the Guy made a mistake, has apologised........lets move on!.......................
Elaine
:yeah:
glad when I make a mistake it does not make the front page of the sun

Philsmove misses break again

14th-January-2005, 01:43 PM

Heres some info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

I can't find anything to say membership of the Nazi party was mandatory, which makes the uproar over Prince harry all the stupider as they cant say he was dressed as a Nazi, only that he was dressed as a German Soldier!

Point of pedancy: armband.

Anyway, everyone seems to agree he made a bad call, but not the end of the world; he was sold out irresponsibly by a friend; move along...

Melanie

14th-January-2005, 01:44 PM

Bigger Andy

14th-January-2005, 02:04 PM

This is only my 2nd ever post, but feel I have to write something. Usually I read the posts but never pass my opinions.

Stewart38 this is directed at you as you started the thread.

6 million Jews were killed by the Nazi's, along with homosexuals, disabled people etc. Families torn apart, tortured. Put on cattle trucks and made to walk from the trucks straight to their death in Gas Chambers. The Nazi's wanted to wipe out all the Jews as a race. I think you should watch the film The Pianist or Schindlers Lists. Maybe you too should go to Auschwitz or to Israel to Yad Vashem and see the museum of the Holocaust. I could go on and on :mad: . Watch the films.

What happened in Asia was a natural disaster, what happened to the Jews by the Nazi's was premeditated murder. The Jews never had fundraiser, charity events after the war to help them get back on their feet. They struggled and had to rebuild their lives. Some spent life times looking for members of their families. Most of the families had been wiped out.

Watch the films, find out more and then maybe you will see what all the fuss is about.

There are many other inoffensive items of clothing that he could of worn to a fancy dress party. He made a huge mistake of judgement, he is now set to learn from it and find out about the Holocaust.

Thats it from me!

I agree with your sentiments regarding both the Jews and the Holocaust and the Asians and the tsunami and all the suffering.

However, we have to move on.

Are TV programmes like 'allo 'allo and Dad's Army offensive ?
They occasionally show Nazi uniforms.

Or, is it more to do with the fact of who was wearing it, and the fact that he is an easy target for the media ?

Where should the line be drawn ?

ElaineB

14th-January-2005, 02:19 PM

This is only my 2nd ever post, but feel I have to write something. Usually I read the posts but never pass my opinions.

Stewart38 this is directed at you as you started the thread.

6 million Jews were killed by the Nazi's, along with homosexuals, disabled people etc. Families torn apart, tortured. Put on cattle trucks and made to walk from the trucks straight to their death in Gas Chambers. The Nazi's wanted to wipe out all the Jews as a race. I think you should watch the film The Pianist or Schindlers Lists. Maybe you too should go to Auschwitz or to Israel to Yad Vashem and see the museum of the Holocaust. I could go on and on :mad: . Watch the films.

What happened in Asia was a natural disaster, what happened to the Jews by the Nazi's was premeditated murder. The Jews never had fundraiser, charity events after the war to help them get back on their feet. They struggled and had to rebuild their lives. Some spent life times looking for members of their families. Most of the families had been wiped out.

Watch the films, find out more and then maybe you will see what all the fuss is about.

There are many other inoffensive items of clothing that he could of worn to a fancy dress party. He made a huge mistake of judgement, he is now set to learn from it and find out about the Holocaust.

Thats it from me!

Mel, you are quite right here as well - I think the comment that Stewrart 38 possibly should not have made was 'how soon we forget'.................we should not forget the Holocaust...........

But back to my original stance - Prince Harry is a very nice inbred German twerp.........

Now await abuse from inbred German twerps...........

Elaine

Magic Hans

14th-January-2005, 02:27 PM

Not too sure how much coverage this had in the Daily Telegraph, (mostly 'cos I don't really care!). However, there were little comment from 20 ish public faces, most of them saying it was everything from slightly silly, to grossly insulting.

I liked the comments from Germaine Greer who said

He'll learn soon enough that he will not be allowed to break wind, let alone dress as a Nazi
and Neil Hamilton (not my favourite-est of peoples)

I have a photograph of the Archbishop of Canterbury, wearing a German helmet and holding up two fingers to make a moustache...

Death to any sort of political correctness!!!!!

[ .... I think that's a version of the moral of Aesops fable "The Man and His son and Their Donkey"]

:D:D:D:D

stewart38

14th-January-2005, 02:47 PM

This is only my 2nd ever post, but feel I have to write something. Usually I read the posts but never pass my opinions.

Stewart38 this is directed at you as you started the thread.

6 million Jews were killed by the Nazi's, along with homosexuals, disabled people etc. Families torn apart, tortured. Put on cattle trucks and made to walk from the trucks straight to their death in Gas Chambers. The Nazi's wanted to wipe out all the Jews as a race. I think you should watch the film The Pianist or Schindlers Lists. Maybe you too should go to Auschwitz or to Israel to Yad Vashem and see the museum of the Holocaust. I could go on and on :mad: . Watch the films.

What happened in Asia was a natural disaster, what happened to the Jews by the Nazi's was premeditated murder. The Jews never had fundraiser, charity events after the war to help them get back on their feet. They struggled and had to rebuild their lives. Some spent life times looking for members of their families. Most of the families had been wiped out.

Watch the films, find out more and then maybe you will see what all the fuss is about.

There are many other inoffensive items of clothing that he could of worn to a fancy dress party. He made a huge mistake of judgement, he is now set to learn from it and find out about the Holocaust.

Thats it from me!

Whats that got to do with the price of bread ?? I never said it was the right thing to do ?

The point of thread was the daily Mail have given 14 pages to it !!

At least now '60yrs after auschwitz' will be in the papers it wouldnt have been before hand.

And the goverment will send someone higher the a boy scout to the Holocaust memorial day

Interestingly Ive study the first and second world war in great depth , however I wouldn't watch films to help my understanding (as there usually factually incorrect)ie what happened after the war to ALL parties is very interesting

Im sure more people will now watch the 6 part programme re Auschwitz which i found very interesting

I wonder if anyone would bother if he had dressed as Sadam Hussain ?? Who killed 10000s

MartinHarper

14th-January-2005, 03:01 PM

Jews never had fundraiser, charity events after the war to help them get back on their feet.

They got the State of Israel.

Just sayin'.

RobC

14th-January-2005, 03:04 PM

No one is denying that what the Nazi's did during the Holocaust of WW2 was terrible and should not be forgotten, but did anyone stop to ask Harry if he had intended to come as a Nazi, or was his costume supposed to be that of a German soldier ?

Personally I blame the media and Hollywood. I'm sure that, like many others who don't share Graham's wealth of knowledge (myself included), both Harry and whom ever created his 'costume' just assumed the armband to be part of the german soldier's uniform, since this is the way it is usually portrayed in films etc. I know that when I hire fancy dress costumes to wear to a private party, I don't bother to check if they are factually or historically correct - it's just a fun costume to wear to a party with a group of close-nit friends in the privacy of someone's home.

And as for the 'friend' who took the photo and subsequently sold it to the press (undoubtedly for a significant sum of money) I hope they get sued for invasion of privacy and are hung drawn and quartered..... :mad:

Dreadful Scathe

14th-January-2005, 04:44 PM

6 million Jews were killed by the Nazi's, etc...

I doubt anyone has forgotten that, but its hardly relevant. Stewarts point was - at a time when people are still suffering from a devastating natural catastrophe, a tabloid paper thinks its more important to spend 14 pages telling you about how someone was inappropriately dressed at a party! As others have said, he apologised, but it shouldnt have been a big deal in the first place, lets not give it more attention than it deserves.

At least now '60yrs after auschwitz' will be in the papers it wouldnt have been before hand.
And the goverment will send someone higher the a boy scout to the Holocaust memorial day

2 excellent points, I wont be suprised if you're correct.

Also, I think its a good thing to be reminded of an evil past - lest we forgot! The whole thing has inspired me to go buy Anne Franks diaries as Ive not read them since school. So well done Prince Harry and Stewart28 :).

Lory

14th-January-2005, 05:23 PM

When I was about 18 and working in a Salon, we used to dress up in fancy dress every Xmas eve and I made the mistake of dressing as a Nun :sick: it was all innocent fun as far as I was concerned and not coming from any sort of religious background, it didn't even occur to me that I might cause anyone deep offence. :blush:

How wrong I was, I had the full wrath of a small, very irate, elderly Irish woman unleashed on me :angry: :eek: :tears: :tears:

I learnt my lesson alright! :wink:

Dreadful Scathe

14th-January-2005, 05:33 PM

According to this article (http://atheism.about.com/b/a/138702.htm#more) there are some who are worried about the way America is going and they liken it to the early days of Nazi Germany! Read it all, its most interesting.

Lynn

14th-January-2005, 05:36 PM

As others have said, he apologised, but it shouldnt have been a big deal in the first place, lets not give it more attention than it deserves. :yeah: If what Harry did has in any way trivialised the suffering of others, or caused offence to people, then he has done wrong, but he is a young man who hasn't maybe developed to thinking through the consequences of his actions. He has apologised and will probably learn from this mistake.

The extensive newspaper coverage is another matter, the reporters and editors should and do know better, for those who have been caused pain by Harry's mistake, how much worse is it to have it highlighted so much, with TV news then reporting on what the papers are saying. :mad:

stewart38

14th-January-2005, 05:38 PM

ElaineB

14th-January-2005, 05:44 PM

14th-January-2005, 06:25 PM

I apologise to Daily Mail it was 12 pages and we are talking full pages.

Daily Mail?!?!?!?

Why all the fuss?? I thought it was in a real newspaper... :sick:

Dance Demon

14th-January-2005, 07:23 PM

Would there have been as much furore if he had worn a Japanese WW2 uniform?...I know people whose fathers were POWs under the Japanese, and some of the attrocities they carried out were as bad as what happened in German concentration camps. Harry went to a fancy dress party. I would assume he hired his costume. If wearing a Nazi uniform to a fancy dress party is classed as offensive, why do shops have them for hire?...Freddie Starr has included his Adolph Hitler character in his act for years. 'Allo 'Allo, has characters in Nazi uniform. These are both regarded as funny. I appreciate the horrors of the holocaust. It was, after all, the worst case of genocide in history. But let's put this incident into perspective. Harry is a young man who is only doing what thousands of other young guys his age do all the time. I wondr if the reaction would have been the same if someone else had turned up at the party wearing the same outfit?

filthycute

14th-January-2005, 10:14 PM

I've got my own views on this....but i can't be bothered to get into a debate.
(it's late-ish and James is fetching chocolate) but i did wonder what would make Somebody want to dress in a German military outfit. If i was in a costume shop it's not something i would choose. Just like i wouldn't dress as Maxine Carr or Myra Hindlay.

filthycute x x

Lindsay

14th-January-2005, 10:29 PM

:yeah:

He made a mistake.. he's young, and has been a bit thoughtless.
But he has apologised now, so it's time to drop it I think. It was just a fancy dress party. Should he 'resign from Sandhurst' on the basis of this? I think not.
Good excuse for press to have Royals sensationalism.

Bangers & Mash

14th-January-2005, 10:56 PM

I think fancy dress and political correctness will never get on.... especially when it comes to the Royals. Every costume that can be worn will have some poor associations for somebody.

I have mixed feelings about whether or not what Harry did was bad, thoughtless, in bad taste, misdirected or whether indeed any crime was commited at all.

Yes. The Nazis did commit terrible attrocities during the second world war, and there are still people around who endured these atrocities. But there are many others who have commited similar in the name of race, religion, borders, clans, empires, oil etc.

What about what the British did to the Scots, or the Irish, or even the French for that matter. And vice versa of course. What about what was endured during the witch trials in the name of Christianity. What about AlQaeda and the latest bout of terrorism. Would Harry have been equally criticised for dressing as a muslim?

Okay - most muslims are good and it is only a minority that committed such atrocities as terrorism. But, history will remind us that there were also good Nazis who helped and co-operated with the Jews. Bear in mind that a lot of the Nazis were conscripted and not all of the German army partook in the atrocities that occurred.

I am not trying to belittle what was done by the Nazis, but like others before me on the forum, I think it is important that every now and again we are remember them, remember what their victims endured, remember how they came to be such a powerful force, and strive to learn through those memories what history has to teach us about tolerance, endurance, compassion and war.

In the diary of Anne Frank who was in hiding for 3 years in Holland during the occupation and who finally died at Auswitch; she criticises the European countries bordering Germany for burying their heads in the sand and ignoring what was happening there, she is highly critical of the Dutch government for capitulating so readily and praises the British by whom she says the whole of Europe was waiting to be saved.

What I am trying to say is that there is nothing to be gained by burying our heads in the sand and denying the existence ever of the Nazis. They are an important part of our history BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DID and especially now when intolerance is at an all time high and such organisations are beginning to rear their heads again.

Harry wore a uniform to a fancy dress party. He committed no worse crime than that in my eyes. The whole incident could have been handled so much better by the press, the politicians and the royals in the aftermath.

Hope this made sense to somebody out there...

Minnie M

14th-January-2005, 10:59 PM

They got the State of Israel.

Just sayin'.

:what: where are you coming from Martin :mad:

Bangers & Mash

14th-January-2005, 11:17 PM

:what: where are you coming from Martin :mad:

Ignore him. He just does this to get people riled :hug:

Lynn

14th-January-2005, 11:33 PM

The whole incident could have been handled so much better by the press, the politicians and the royals in the aftermath.
That was my point - particularly the press, they usually don't really care too much who they upset - they want to sell papers.

Hopefully Harry will take some time to learn about the associated history behind the symbols he wore, and understand why people were upset.

Jive Brummie

15th-January-2005, 12:35 AM

Must admit to having mixed feelings about this.

As a fellow young man (hopefully :sick: ) I totally sympathise with this guy. At the end of the day, yeah he made a mistake. Show me one young bloke who hasn't made the odd mistake and i'll show you a liar. So fair enough.

However...

He must also remember that he is part of the Royal family. As such, he doesn't have to worry about anything for the rest of his life. He'll always have food in his royal gut and a roof over his royal head. In effect, he has no responsibility.....other than that of his own actions. He's in the public eye....and knows it. Surely such an educated guy as himself must have thought...."Well, wait a minute, maybe I shouldn't dress in a German military uniform"

In terms of it affecting his potential Army career.....I think he might as well jack that in for starters. I've worked with Army guys before, and every single one of them has been ferociously patriotic.....If he'd walked into a mess function dressed as a German, he'd have been slated, slagged and abused. His Commanding Officer would also have given him a right bo11ocking.

But....best of luck Harry, in your future career as a film producer.....oh yeah, that's the other one who couldn't cut it in the forces...sorry, oh well, international diplomat it is then :whistle: .

JB.

Whitebeard

15th-January-2005, 01:08 AM

There were 14 pages today in the Daily Mail ...
I hope you didn't buy it!! Just happened to pick it up at the barber's, eh?? A waiting room somewhere perhaps?? Would you expect anything better of this toe rag?

As to the issue of the "friend" that sold him down the river....
I despair at the attitudes, morals, cupidity, and sheer superficiality of so much of the younger generations as reflected in the media. Thank God (in whom I do not believe) my age elevates me from this morass. And yet, doesn't this forum show that independent thought still lives on despite the brainwashing?

But back to my original stance - Prince Harry is a very nice inbred German twerp.........
But wasn't he the result of outbreeding to another line - could that be the problem? (Cowers [but defiantly] - awaiting the incomming flack.)

Stuart

15th-January-2005, 10:36 AM

It was sad to see that even the Independent was devoting space to this story this morning. Normally they avoid royal stories like the plague.

Divissima

15th-January-2005, 02:31 PM

I think you should watch the film The Pianist or Schindlers Lists. Maybe you too should go to Auschwitz or to Israel to Yad Vashem and see the museum of the Holocaust. I could go on and on :mad: . Watch the films. I'm with Stewart38 on this - I wouldn't recommend watching the films for any kind of historical accuracy. The suggestion of visiting Auschwitz-Birkenau itself, or Yad Vashem is closer to the mark though. I understand that the museum and information side of Auschwitz has been augmented and improved since I visited in 1994. I have not been to Yad Vashem, but can recommend the excellent US Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, DC. However, equally as good and much closer to home is the permanent Holocaust exhibition at the Imperial War Museum in London.

Magic Hans

16th-January-2005, 12:46 PM

...
Interestingly Ive study the first and second world war in great depth , however I wouldn't watch films to help my understanding (as there usually factually incorrect)ie what happened after the war to ALL parties is very interesting

Im sure more people will now watch the 6 part programme re Auschwitz which i found very interesting
...

:yeah: :yeah:

I'ts all very well watching (or reading) something that designed to capture and maintain interest primarily, and be relevant to the facts to some lesser degree. Even documentaries are bound to do this, but to a far lesser degree in my opinion.

Personally I think it nigh on impossible to put myself into the shoes of someone experiencing anything that is way out of my field of experience, be that a prisoner of war, or some native of on of the early tribal cultures (aboriginal, american indian, african, etc). More than that, I am highly sceptical of anyone who claims to!!

Interestingly enough, Victor Frankl, an Austrian-Jewish neuro-surgeon, in his book "Man's Search for Meaning", mentions how he heard someone at an Auchwitz exhibition commenting on how miserable it must have been there, based on a photograph depicting these emaciated bodies of prisoners behind the prison fence.

As an ex-intern of Auchwitz himself, his immediate response was "What makes you say that?".

His own experience, as he recalls, was that, after coming through the great shock of excepting that he has at a concentration camp, daily expectations were simply lowered. And so, a day with less pain than average, was a good/happy day, whereas one with more pain was a bad/sad day!!!!

I really cannot imagine what that really means, which is down to my own experiential inadequacies. However, I can but simply believe him at his word.

Ian

Matthew

16th-January-2005, 03:33 PM

Ignore him. He just does this to get people riled :hug:

I dunno, this time it was a completely accurate comment and I'm not sure how it could be upsetting unless you want to read something into it. It's certainly true that the Jews were given the state of Israel and enormous amounts of foreign aid in the intervening years. Can't see how this is anything other than a plain response to the curious statement that the world left them to fend for themselves. The support came six million lives too late, but it did come.

Mind, I'm not saying for a second that this "makes up" for the Holocaust -- to suggest that it does or it doesn't is to say that you can even put a value on that suffering and loss of life...

Minnie M

16th-January-2005, 05:44 PM

I dunno, this time it was a completely accurate comment and I'm not sure how it could be upsetting unless you want to read something into it. It's certainly true that the Jews were given the state of Israel and enormous amounts of foreign aid in the intervening years. Can't see how this is anything other than a plain response to the curious statement that the world left them to fend for themselves. The support came six million lives too late, but it did come.

Mind, I'm not saying for a second that this "makes up" for the Holocaust -- to suggest that it does or it doesn't is to say that you can even put a value on that suffering and loss of life...

Speaking as a Jew - The comment may be technically accurate, however the comment hit me as being very flippant and at first glance almost insulting - I am not into politics and and I am not articulate enough to continue this debate - but whether he meant it or not I took offence.

I welcomed Bangers & Mash following post - thank you :hug:

jivecat

16th-January-2005, 11:12 PM

But wasn't he the result of outbreeding to another line - could that be the problem? (Cowers [but defiantly] - awaiting the incomming flack.)

I'm fairly neutral on whether Prince Harry was/wasn't out of order - we all did stupid things at that age, didn't we?

But I'm amazed that more steps have not been taken to bring him into line and make him a useful member of the royal family. And that he has not been more carefully educated to prepare him for this role, which might have avoided the present problem. But I gather he is not even on the Civil list - seems a bit strange considering he is third in line to the throne. Not that I'm advocating handing out taxpayers money to him.

I do (almost) feel a bit sorry for him as the odds against him developing into a well-balanced person seem overwhelmingly high. He's the product of two families which would be considered dysfunctional by most people's standards. Although his mother was loving and caring she was also highly neurotic and we can only guess at the emotional histrionics he was witness to at an early age. Even in an ordinary family that might be difficult enough but he must also have been aware of the enormous press interest that magnified & dramatised every fault and incident in his parent's bitterly tense relationship. His mother abandoned him by dying in mysterious circumstances which seemed the culmination of a series of unwise choices made during the course of her life. To cap it all, there's the doubt about his parentage which makes him seem to be a cuckoo in the royal family's nest.

I'm sure that Prince Charles has long since had him DNA tested. But if it should be that Harry is not genetically his child then knowing that there is yet another furore waiting when news of who his father really is finally leaks out can't be easy to live with.

Imagine the emotional insecurities created by this kind of upbringing interacting with the arrogance encouraged by his intense privilege and wealth. It's hardly any wonder he doesn't behave.

bobgadjet

17th-January-2005, 10:41 AM

Did a quick straw pole in my Office about this - everyone thinks it is completely overblown.....the Guy made a mistake, has apologised........lets move on!

The guy may have made a BIG mistake, but the more press it gets, the more get reminded of what should never be forgotten.

How many other "20's" have now realised, read about, or indeed come to know about those horrific events.

I wonder how many at that party knew about what happened in the last war, or indeed who was even involved, but by now it has been brought to the forefront in their minds, even tho it may already have been forgotten.

I think the press may have been looking to take the attention elsewhere for a short period, and Big H took the fall.

We should not forget either event, but the press see it as NEWS, where the Tsunami tragedy is fast becoming history.

We are still fundraising, and that should go on for some time yet, but that will subside as it usually does.

No doubt we will be reminded of the Tsunami devastation every year, for as long as it takes for the countries to get back on their feet, but what of the families of those lost who have to live their losses every day, for life?

Overblown, yes, but certainly worth making an example of, IMO

MartinHarper

17th-January-2005, 11:17 AM

whether he meant it or not I took offence.

Fortunately, not being a royal, we don't have to endure several pages of newspaper coverage as a result.

I believe (quite strongly, actually) that when remembering the Holocaust, it is better to remember it accurately and truthfully, rather than remembering it inoffensively. Twenty five million deaths are too many to hide behind a tasteful veil of political correctness.

Others believe differently. It is a big world.

Dreadful Scathe

17th-January-2005, 12:32 PM

Fortunately, not being a royal, we don't have to endure several pages of newspaper coverage as a result.

I believe (quite strongly, actually) that when remembering the Holocaust, it is better to remember it accurately and truthfully, rather than remembering it inoffensively. Twenty five million deaths are too many to hide behind a tasteful veil of political correctness.

Others believe differently. It is a big world.
Certainly is. We should never forget lessons of the past, but it seems the worse an event is the more 'sacred' it becomes, like in the Prince Harry inciden - its a young man wearing an armband isnt it? Its also worth remebering that there will always be people who deny something despite strong evidence. To many, the holocaust is mere propoganda.See here for some interesting reading (http://www.jimloy.com/history/holocaus.htm), including a quote from someone who says "The Jews are the New Nazis of the world" because of their treatment of palestinians.

Minnie M

17th-January-2005, 02:42 PM

In reply to Martin Harper's post :-

Originally Posted by Minnie M
whether he meant it or not I took offence.

By only taking a small part of my post - it has given it a completely different agenda :mad:

I apologise for making this a little personal - I will not continue with posting to this thread as it is now upsetting me.

This is such a sensitive subject - people (in particular Martin Harper) should think before posting

Dance Demon

17th-January-2005, 07:24 PM

I dunno, this time it was a completely accurate comment and I'm not sure how it could be upsetting unless you want to read something into it. It's certainly true that the Jews were given the state of Israel and enormous amounts of foreign aid in the intervening years. Can't see how this is anything other than a plain response to the curious statement that the world left them to fend for themselves. The support came six million lives too late, but it did come.

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I didn't realise that jewish was a nationality :confused: ....When you say " The Jews were given the state of Israel" which Jews do you mean.? ...The majority of Jews Killed in the Holocaust were Europeans....Polish, Austrian, Romanian etc....Surely "The state of Israel" was given to the Jews in the Middle East?
Judaism is a religion., not a nationality. This statement is a bit like saying " The catholics were given the State of The Vatican City"

bobgadjet

17th-January-2005, 08:07 PM

I didn't realise that jewish was a nationality :confused: ....When you say " The Jews were given the state of Israel" which Jews do you mean.? ...The majority of Jews Killed in the Holocaust were Europeans....Polish, Austrian, Romanian etc....Surely "The state of Israel" was given to the Jews in the Middle East?
Judaism is a religion., not a nationality. This statement is a bit like saying " The catholics were given the State of The Vatican City"

AH YES....... now I agree with that one.

BUT, the religion has more or less claimed the state of Israel, where it all started and all that, that's if you believe all that you read :blush:

Personally, back to the thread, enuf is enuf on the Harry front, but it must have brought the horrors back into the minds of some very hurt families, and made someothers looks up, read and listen, and that can't be all that bad.

Dreadful Scathe

17th-January-2005, 08:25 PM

I see the whole thing has prompted a TV programme about him tonight - cheaper TV for the producers and they can claim its topical :)

Minnie M

17th-January-2005, 09:45 PM

I didn't realise that jewish was a nationality :confused: ....When you say " The Jews were given the state of Israel" which Jews do you mean.? ...The majority of Jews Killed in the Holocaust were Europeans....Polish, Austrian, Romanian etc....Surely "The state of Israel" was given to the Jews in the Middle East?
Judaism is a religion., not a nationality. This statement is a bit like saying " The catholics were given the State of The Vatican City"

ABSOLUTELY TRUE :yeah: - my background is Polish and Romanian and I have never been to Israel or have anyparticular desire to do so :yeah:

I said I wasn't going to post any more but had to reply to this

Graham

21st-January-2005, 12:08 AM

Surely "The state of Israel" was given to the Jews in the Middle East?
Whilst I agree with the overall thrust of your post, I just wanted to point out that Israel has had extensive immigration and that one of the major political justifications for its creation was as a homeland where Jewish people around the world could move to if they wished.

Dance Demon

21st-January-2005, 01:15 AM

Whilst I agree with the overall thrust of your post, I just wanted to point out that Israel has had extensive immigration and that one of the major political justifications for its creation was as a homeland where Jewish people around the world could move to if they wished.

Yes that's true, but the country or state is called Israel....not Jew...the people of Israel are Israelis, by Nationality, and Jews by religion. :)

Bangers & Mash

21st-January-2005, 07:43 PM

Yes that's true, but the country or state is called Israel....not Jew...the people of Israel are Israelis, by Nationality, and Jews by religion. :)

:yeah:

Nationality is where you live.
Religion is what you believe.
Jewish does not mean Israeli.

I know that this is a sensitive subject, but that war is over. The nazis of then were defeated and ironically, just as people were beginning to forget what they did, Harry brought it all back to the headlines and now we are reminded and another generation is also learning.

But what about the nazis of today? and what about all the other regimes?

Telling all the Jews to f@ck off to Israel, all the Catholics to f@ck off to Rome, all the blacks to f@ck off to their side of South Africa, and all the English to f@ck off the other side of Hadrians Wall is not the answer.

MartinHarper

24th-January-2005, 02:00 PM

There were 14 pages today in the Daily Mail [...] about Prince Harry and him wearing a Nazi uniform.

Interestingly, I read that the founder of the Daily Mail (Lord Rothermere) was a pro-Hitler fascist. I also read that in 1992, the Mail had a fancy dress party with a Nazi theme.

Minnie M

24th-January-2005, 02:12 PM

Nationality is where you live.
Religion is what you believe.
Jewish does not mean Israeli

thank you B&M tis very true (good post) NOW.............

Can we PLEASE (Martin Harper) let this thread die :flower:

MartinHarper

24th-January-2005, 02:40 PM

Can we PLEASE (Martin Harper) let this thread die :flower:

Umm...
why?

Melanie

24th-January-2005, 03:00 PM

Agree with Minnie M

Divissima

24th-January-2005, 03:34 PM

bobgadjet

24th-January-2005, 07:14 PM

I can see both sides of this one, but while people still have things to say, why stifle the thread?

There is plenty in the news and on TV about the historical events of the Holocaust and the issues surrounding them so it seems normal that people will want to exchange views, surely?
Seems its gone away from the original thread title , and on to somehing resembling a religeous disciussion.

Harry's actions were in no way meant to point toward any religeous beliefs, if any beliefs at all.
He merely made a HUGE mistake on the costume and has flared up all sorts of arguments, so I suppose THAT's what all the fuss is about.

If this forum were to be more correct in the content of its answers on threads, then the past (too) many replies should have been under another thread title, maybe "whats harry's mistake to do with religeon?"

In some respects I agree with Minnie, BUT, like those who keep the TV on, then complain about a program........nobody forces you to read the thread:whistle: (Sorry Minnie :flower: )