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View Full Version : Lifetime contribution to Modern Jive award.



ChrisA
10th-January-2005, 12:17 AM
A question came out of a discussion tonight, watching the Jivemasters DVD...

Who would win it, and why?

CJ
10th-January-2005, 12:24 AM
A question came out of a discussion tonight, watching the Jivemasters DVD...

Who would win it, and why?

You would, Chris.

And the reasons stand on their own, they need no explanation.

ChrisA
10th-January-2005, 12:46 AM
You would, Chris.

And the reasons stand on their own, they need no explanation.

Well, I was hoping for something a little more serious than this.

I was watching Viktor, and thinking that his style is so far ahead of anyone else's that he's a total legend.

Then there's Nigel and Nina, who brought blues and musicality into the mainstream.

More recently there's Amir, whose abilty to teach diffcult, technical stuff is IMHO unparallelled, and who, more than anyone else that I've seen, inspires by actually looking like a dancer...

... these are just people I've had the privilege to encounter over the last few years. I'm sure there are others. I just thought it might be interesting to see what other people's perceptions were.

Your perception is pretty obvious as usual, but I wasn't really looking to hear that this time.

Chris

CJ
10th-January-2005, 12:53 AM
Your perception is pretty obvious as usual, but I wasn't really looking to hear that this time.

Really?

I'm sorry, Chris. How about the next time you start a thread, you maybe put "CJ's opinion not welcome" in the subject and I'll know not to input anything.

For what it's worth, Franck would have to be a nominee. (But sure as hell not for his dancing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Jive Brummie
10th-January-2005, 12:58 AM
Well, if you were going to include West Coast Swing.....

me and the missus watched Jordan & Tatiana from Rebel Yell 2004.....and were absolutely blown away.

They are without doubt, the coolest, smoothest, innovative, highest quality dancers we've ever had the pleasure of watching..... :worthy: :worthy:

....and even better, they'll be at Southport in June..... :clap:

Nice one John & Wes :worthy:

So, in my humble opinion, they'd come over here and kick some British, Australian and anyone else's butt who dared get in their way.

JB x x

RobC
10th-January-2005, 01:41 AM
A question came out of a discussion tonight, watching the Jivemasters DVD...

Who would win it, and why?
How about the likes of James Cronin for setting up Ceroc and bringing MJ to the masses ?
Sure there are other independants, and other organisation have done their bit to promote MJ (LeRoc down Bristol way for example), but you can't deny the overwhelming coverage and market saturation that Ceroc holds. Just take a look at the class listings on UK-Jive (http://www.uk-jive.co.uk/class-list-print.asp) and see the percentage of classes that are Ceroc.

Will
10th-January-2005, 01:52 AM
How about the likes of James Cronin for setting up Ceroc and bringing MJ to the masses ?

:yeah:

MartinHarper
10th-January-2005, 02:57 AM
More recently there's Amir...

Isn't he a bit young for a "lifetime achievement" award?

Andy McGregor
10th-January-2005, 07:11 AM
And how about Franco? He's been a pioneer with his dance weekends.

And how about me? If it wasn't for me there would be no guys entering competitions in a dress :whistle:

spindr
10th-January-2005, 09:33 AM
Well apart some of the previous suggestions:
How about Nicky Haslam -- who else has got an entire continent doing MJ :)
Or on a slightly smaller scale, Michel Gay -- most of the Bristol classes can be traced back to his original Bristol Ceroc (pre-trademark).

SpinDr.

bigdjiver
10th-January-2005, 11:38 AM
Unpopular as he may be with the Ceroc Gods, Robert Austin for introducing the Le Jive Championships, from which so much has flowed.

CJ
10th-January-2005, 12:13 PM
How about the likes of James Cronin for setting up Ceroc and bringing MJ to the masses ?


This was the primary reason for me suggsting Franck. He and Jean brought MJ to Scotland and took it to many cities.

This forum, itself, and all it stands for: OPEN discussion (not always, historically, the Ceroc way!! :wink: ) and general love of MJ.

His willingness to go the extra mile for MJ, and those who have an interest in it.

Legend is often over-used but, in time, he may well become one.

David Franklin
10th-January-2005, 12:35 PM
Well, if you were going to include West Coast Swing.....

me and the missus watched Jordan & Tatiana from Rebel Yell 2004.....and were absolutely blown away.

They are without doubt, the coolest, smoothest, innovative, highest quality dancers we've ever had the pleasure of watching..... :worthy: :worthy: Did you do their classes? One thing everyone I know commented on was how focussed they were on competitions and judging. A particular one I remember was Jordan explaining if your foot wasn't pointed in the right direction you'd be marked down. Given all the horror whenever anyone suggests 'formalizing' Modern Jive, I'm not sure we're ready to emulate Jordan & Tatianna.

FWIW, Skippy Blair would probably be regarded in the US as the 'WCS Lifetime Achievement Winner'. From the few routines I've seen, I'd also say Mario Robau and Robert/Deborah had pretty big influences in making WCS look like it currently does...

Dave

Minnie M
10th-January-2005, 02:57 PM
How about the likes of James Cronin for setting up Ceroc and bringing MJ to the masses ? :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

...........Franck would have to be a nominee. (But sure as hell not for his dancing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) I would give Franck the nominee for Scotland - DEFINITELY ! And his dancing is fab fab fabby. :clap: ... :drool: .. :worthy: .. he gets my 10 out of 10

Ste
10th-January-2005, 03:00 PM
James Cronin.

Without him I would still be holing up somewhere practising guitar and hoping to be the next Michael Landau ( possibly the world's greatest session guitarist).

Then again maybe I would have been the next Michael Landau!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Minnie M
10th-January-2005, 03:00 PM
.........And how about me? If it wasn't for me there would be no guys entering competitions in a dress :whistle:

That people would have noticed :whistle:

Remember the story about Paul (sorry Paula) - she (he) with her (his) partner Robert Heaven were the pioneers of Air Steps in Sussex (possibly the whole modern jive scene) in 1994

Lounge Lizard
10th-January-2005, 05:53 PM
Well, if you were going to include West Coast Swing.....

me and the missus watched Jordan & Tatiana from Rebel Yell 2004.....and were absolutely blown away.

They are without doubt, the coolest, smoothest, innovative, highest quality dancers we've ever had the pleasure of watching..... :worthy: :worthy:

....and even better, they'll be at Southport in June..... :clap:

Nice one John & Wes :worthy:

So, in my humble opinion, they'd come over here and kick some British, Australian and anyone else's butt who dared get in their way.

JB x xif ypu dont want to wait till June Katy has booked them for Camber in March - it was Katy who introduced us to them at her last Rebel yell
LL

bigdjiver
10th-January-2005, 06:30 PM
I trust we are giving out more than one lifetime achievement award. Whatever else Franck has done for MJ may in the end may be surpassed by what this forum achieves. Great things happen when the right idea reaches the right mind, and the right partnerships form. The Le Jive championships were important for that reason, and Franco was nominated for his weekenders. This forum may well turn out to be the site of a major milestone.
Graham Le Clerc and other early Cerocers and Lerocers have done their bit too. Whosoever initiated the class format should be on the list, if not already.

Minnie M
10th-January-2005, 06:48 PM
Come on now guys - what about our very own Roger Chin - been around form day one and has stayed faithful to modern jive

And the Barkers :worthy: of course) David & Lily imortalised on the famous 'Jive Bunny' video - IMHO David is one of the best leads on the MJ scene and Lily the best follower - between them they must have dance with most of the UK MJ jive scene :worthy: :clap: :flower:

bigdjiver
10th-January-2005, 07:25 PM
Come on now guys - what about our very own Roger Chin - been around form day one and has stayed faithful to modern jive
... I would like for somebody to gather together all the various accounts of the formative years of MJ. I thought of Roger, and knew he had been around, but only know of a very few of his contributions to competitions. I am sure that we owe a lot to many unsung heros and heroines, but there is very little written record. (Shall I dance or shall I write?) No-brainer!

RogerR
10th-January-2005, 08:44 PM
James has his award in the form of a paid for nice house. The early pioneers need recognition, Michel Ange Lau, Christine Keeble, Roger Chin, Dominique Corolleur, Michel Gay, et al. Look into the history of MJ on www.howtojive.com and look at the credits on the How to Jive (with Jive Bunny or the Firebirds) for all the founding names. There's NO WAY a lifetime award needs to go to a young person.

Starlight Dancer
10th-January-2005, 11:11 PM
James Cronin, Christine Keeble, Michel Ange Lau, Nicky Haslam. They dreamed it, made it a reality, and took it to the masses.

Minnie M
10th-January-2005, 11:22 PM
................./snip/........ Nicky Haslam.......

I'm a little confused - where does Nicky Haslam fit in with the original MJ peeps ?

What about Mark Harding ? And Joseph Reale (Modern Jive Germany) and Modern Jive USA and what about the French ?? I thought that was where our style of dance originates ??

The 'How to Jive' web site is very informative but it has left gaps........

BTW if we are talking about "Life Time Achievements" Adam N. has possibly contributed more to MJ than most of current day MJ organisers, and now he has taken it to New Zealand - Rock On Jive Masters THE WORLD !

Starlight Dancer
10th-January-2005, 11:37 PM
I'm a little confused - where does Nicky Haslam fit in with the original MJ peeps ?

If my memory serves me right she was in the original UK cabarets that used Christine Keeble's and Michel Ange Lau's moves and took it to Australia. I included her because she was there from the start and took it to the masses. I'm not sure about the other emissaries you mention, were they there from the start anybody? If I took Ceroc to Papau New Guinea and started a craze there I'm sure I could be counted as a founder, but I wouldn't deserve the lifetime award.

Starlight Dancer
10th-January-2005, 11:47 PM
...and what about the French ?? I thought that was where our style of dance originates ??

I think it needed someone to reinterpret, structure and promote the French jive before it called be called modern jive. Most of the original Ceroc moves are based on Christine and Michel's creative interpretation of the French jive moves that Cronin saw. Where do you draw the line? We could trace this back to Latin America and Africa if we tried. We need a definitive starting point, and for me that was with Cronin's cabarets.

Gus
11th-January-2005, 01:37 AM
James Cronin, Christine Keeble, Michel Ange Lau, Nicky Haslam. They dreamed it, made it a reality, and took it to the masses.Sorry to be pedantic .... but it was JAMES CRONIN who took it to the masses, the rest all patently failed in this ...... if Ceroc(tm) had not come to pass the vast majority of people who currently do MJ would be doing something else and this Forum wouldnt exist .... end-of-story! (IMHO)

Starlight Dancer
12th-January-2005, 01:16 AM
Sorry to be pedantic .... but it was JAMES CRONIN who took it to the masses, the rest all patently failed in this ...... if Ceroc(tm) had not come to pass the vast majority of people who currently do MJ would be doing something else and this Forum wouldnt exist .... end-of-story! (IMHO)

Yes Cronin took it to the masses like nobody else. But Christine and Michel did develop the first Ceroc moves - the first move, sway, yoyo, etc, so they defined the Ceroc style and deserve some credit whether they took it to the masses as much as James Cronin or not. I agree Cronin deserves the most recognition, but if I was Nicky Haslam I would be a bit hurt if someone had told me I had failed in taking Ceroc to the masses when I had founded Ceroc Australia and influenced a whole country and through the videos and DVDs many other Cerocers around the world.

Gus
12th-January-2005, 01:54 AM
....but if I was Nicky Haslam I would be a bit hurt if someone had told me I had failed in taking Ceroc to the masses when I had founded Ceroc Australia and influenced a whole country and through the videos and DVDs many other Cerocers around the world.Doesn't Messr Harding also deserve come credit? Dont know ... not very clear on the development of Modern Jive Down Under.

Sheepman
12th-January-2005, 11:28 AM
Sorry to be pedantic .... but it was JAMES CRONIN who took it to the masses, the rest all patently failed in this ...... The first bit I agree with, but certainly not the second. Leroc may be a pretty loose association, but there are many thousands of people still attending Leroc events each week, OK not on the same scale as Ceroc.
It's also worth remembering that Christine Keeble plunged her life savings, and loads of time and effort, into the production of the "How To Jive" video. (OK it is a shame about the Jive Bunny mixes, but I don't think she could afford established artists!)

Maybe it isn't relevant to a "lifetime award" but Christine is also one of the nicest people I've ever met who ran events. (Excluding Franck of course!!)

Greg

Minnie M
12th-January-2005, 11:47 AM
.......... But Christine and Michel did develop the first Ceroc moves - the first move, sway, yoyo, etc, so they defined the Ceroc style and deserve some credit whether they took it to the masses ............

(better be careful where I snip - might get the Martin Harper disapproval neg reps again)

These moves come from the French, some of which I actually danced as a young teenager - plus this was also confirmed to me by Mike Ellard this year at Rhythm Riot. I believe the fab two brought them from France with many other of their moves and developed the 'Ceroc' style of teaching them. As far I know the Ceroc style of teaching at that time was unique (lessons in rows and rotation plus freestyle time, taxi dancers etc etc) :clap: :worthy:

Roger Chin - where are you ?? DavidB would know too - but he is in China :tears:

Will
12th-January-2005, 01:01 PM
[SIZE=1DavidB would know too - but he is in China :tears:Actually, he is in Singapore, but I get your drift.

I was wondering if anyone on the forum was at or knows anyone who was at the 1st ever Ceroc night at Porchester Hall in January 1980?

Ste
12th-January-2005, 02:10 PM
Great link Roger R.

Great thread. One of the best I have come across ( IMHO!!!)

I would like to know more about the early days. Especially the Hammersmith front row/secret society of top dancers !

With regard to the Lreoc side of things, I did have the pleasure of going to Notre Dame on a few occasions. I remember seeing some brilliant dancing. Really stylish. I was too scared to ask a lot of people to dance because they looked so good.

As an aside I wanted to mention the following story. On one night at Notre Dame, I saw this incredible dancer who looked Chinese and had a little pony tail. He was doing really complex moves and really really fast. I have rarely seen anyone dance with that kind of technique, speed and precision even to this day and wish that I had a camcorder to record it. Probably the best lead I have ever seen on a social freestyle. I would have paid money to watch this guy dance.It was staggering. I can still imagine it in my mind's eye.

Then some time later I went to Acton Town Hall at lunch time. NOt sure why! (I used to wander around Acton at lunchtime to have my Thai lunch or whatever.) I met this guy! I asked him for dance tips because I was keen to learn. I then used to collar him to ask him help me improve. Later we spoke on the telephone and he gave me tips. He would also take time to kick me up the behind when I was competing and tell me where I made mistakes ( like " What were you doing in that corner"?) and still does! It was like getting mentoring from Kevin Keegan.

His name is Roger Chin and it's nice to see him get recognition on this thread.

Minnie M
12th-January-2005, 02:55 PM
...........His name is Roger Chin and it's nice to see him get recognition on this thread.

:yeah: :worthy:
As I said on a previous post Roger is possibly one of the few original Modern Jivers who has stayed faithful to the style and he was a good then as he is now

- I remember those Notre Dame days and weren't they good :clap: those were the days when JB was always seen on the dance floor (with bleached hair etc :rofl: ) - not a lot of people know what a good dancer he is :cool:

Sorry off thread again (please don't neg rep me MH)

Hello - I believe DavidB has just checked in :yeah:

Starlight Dancer
12th-January-2005, 05:36 PM
Doesn't Messr Harding also deserve come credit? Dont know ... not very clear on the development of Modern Jive Down Under.

As far as I know he wasn't there back in 1980 in the original cabarets. If I'm right he split from Nicky Haslam's Ceroc Australia company and formed his own company.

bigdjiver
12th-January-2005, 06:05 PM
I loved Notre Dame too. Christine Keeble also deserves some kudos for putting some of the history on her website. Perhaps before we start a poll to put the candidates in order for a Forum Lifetime achievement award, and before we have a poll to decide where the cut-off point should be, we should have a bit more discussion of the judging criteria, and perhaps we should allow this thread to simmer for a while.

Perhaps it might be best if we left the situation as "nominated for a life-time achievement award."?

Gus
12th-January-2005, 06:24 PM
Perhaps it might be best if we left the situation as "nominated for a life-time achievement award."?Goosd idea ... I think the proiblem is that the majority of people on the Forum wont have been around more than 5 yaers or so and so may not be aware of all the hard work put in by people before Ceroc/LeRoc gained any form of popularity.

Ste
12th-January-2005, 09:51 PM
Can you nominate just one person then? Or can you have a top three?

RogerR
12th-January-2005, 10:16 PM
the 1st ever Ceroc night at Porchester Hall in January 1980?

Does anyone know who the DJ was on that first night, I've an idea but its only that till someone provides supporting evidence!!

Yogi_Bear
12th-January-2005, 11:48 PM
I don't think you can get REALLY serious about a lifetime achievement award until you have found the MJ equivalent (aged around 90 and still teaching and inspiring new generations of dancers) of Frankie Manning in Lindy Hop....

Minnie M
12th-January-2005, 11:56 PM
I don't think you can get REALLY serious about a lifetime achievement award until you have found the MJ equivalent (aged around 90 and still teaching and inspiring new generations of dancers) of Frankie Manning in Lindy Hop....

He will be 91 in April :worthy:

bigdjiver
13th-January-2005, 01:11 AM
I don't think you can get REALLY serious about a lifetime achievement award until you have found the MJ equivalent (aged around 90 and still teaching and inspiring new generations of dancers) of Frankie Manning in Lindy Hop....I am willing to wait, if you can guarantee that I will be able to vote ...

Starlight Dancer
13th-January-2005, 02:16 AM
I don't think you can get REALLY serious about a lifetime achievement award until you have found the MJ equivalent (aged around 90 and still teaching and inspiring new generations of dancers) of Frankie Manning in Lindy Hop....

I agree, what if we nominated for the most important contributors to the modern jive dance form in history? Or the person who has had the most important influence on the development of Ceroc? No need to limit to one person, but don't nominate too many!

Roger C
13th-January-2005, 01:19 PM
Roger Chin - where are you ?? DavidB would know too - but he is in China :tears:

Hi there,

I have just become aware of this tread and will in due course help to try and unravel the truth from the myth.

I started dancing Le Roc and Ceroc in the summer of 1983 - so any info that I have before that date is what has been told to me and the other info is what I have witnessed.

I am a bit of a hoarder with regards to the things that I have collected over my years of dancing - so I should be able to answer most questions on the development of MJ since the 80's!

From my read of the tread so far there are a few misconceptions and some very good nominees.

Best wishes,
Roger

CJ
13th-January-2005, 03:04 PM
I don't think you can get REALLY serious about a lifetime achievement award until you have found the MJ equivalent (aged around 90 and still teaching and inspiring new generations of dancers) of Frankie Manning in Lindy Hop....

There is more to teaching so far as lifetime achievement awards are concerned (think about film & music industries).

That said, Franck is coming up 86 and is still teaching.

Minnie M
13th-January-2005, 05:38 PM
There is more to teaching so far as lifetime achievement awards are concerned (think about film & music industries).

That said, Franck is coming up 86 and is still teaching.

Coming up 91 ! He will be 91 this April and he is in lots of old films and as still booked for teaching THIS year for Swing Jam, JATW and of course Herrange - however it is ONLY Savoy Style Lindy Hop he is interested in (his baby of course) - I thought this thread was for Modern Jive only

You could say Simon Selman - I beleive his first dance was MJ but most of his teaching / TV and Film stuff is Lindy

JAMES CRONIN it is IMHO

CJ
13th-January-2005, 06:16 PM
You mean Frankie or FRANCK?!?!?!?!?

herrflick
13th-January-2005, 06:51 PM
I agree, what if we nominated for the most important contributors to the modern jive dance form in history? Or the person who has had the most important influence on the development of Ceroc? No need to limit to one person, but don't nominate too many!


I would like to nominate Virginia Woolf of Ceroc Kent. She was a major influence in getting me to be confident enough to start going dancing, and I am sure a lot of dancers around now have come through starting at Bromley, Croydon, Eden Park (not around any more). nuff said

Minnie M
13th-January-2005, 06:51 PM
You mean Frankie or FRANCK?!?!?!?!?

very suttle - missed that completely :rofl: :rofl:

Can't believe Franck put down BEFORE 1991, he must have been wearing short trousers then - and come along with his Mum :flower: if not he certainly wears well :worthy:

Franck Pauly Fan Club Member

bigdjiver
13th-January-2005, 07:12 PM
I would like to nominate Virginia Woolf of Ceroc Kent. She was a major influence in getting me to be confident enough to start going dancing, and I am sure a lot of dancers around now have come through starting at Bromley, Croydon, Eden Park (not around any more). nuff said I learned a lot from Virginia & Hannah when I was Cerocing in that area, but I would not like to place them in order with Phil, Michaela, and Emma of Ceroc Central, or Mike Ellard. These are just the ones I have experience of. They have all left MJ better than they found it, and I am sure there are very many others who have made a comparable difference in their own way. If lifetime achievement just involves service, then they all qualify.

Will
13th-January-2005, 07:22 PM
Coming up 91 ! He will be 91 this April and he is in lots of old films and as still booked for teaching THIS year for Swing Jam, JATW and of course Herrange - however it is ONLY Savoy Style Lindy Hop he is interested in (his baby of course) - I thought this thread was for Modern Jive only

You could say Simon Selman - I beleive his first dance was MJ but most of his teaching / TV and Film stuff is Lindy

JAMES CRONIN it is IMHO
I'd agree with this. But if Lindy has Franky Manning, Ceroc / MJ has James Cronin, is there a "Father" or "Mother" of Salsa, Tango, and Ballroom?

... After all, tap dancing has got Bruce Forsyth :wink:

bigdjiver
14th-January-2005, 02:21 AM
I'd agree with this. But if Lindy has Franky Manning, Ceroc / MJ has James Cronin, is there a "Father" or "Mother" of Salsa, Tango, and Ballroom?

... After all, tap dancing has got Bruce Forsyth :wink:The Castles were major innovators and promoters of ballroom pre WW1, he died in the war, and Irene carried on with the promotion of ballroom.

Yogi_Bear
14th-January-2005, 09:29 AM
I would like to nominate Virginia Woolf of Ceroc Kent. She was a major influence in getting me to be confident enough to start going dancing, and I am sure a lot of dancers around now have come through starting at Bromley, Croydon, Eden Park (not around any more). nuff said
In a similar vein - I started MJ back in 1993 with Cynthia Farleigh's Ceroc classes in Norwich. Within a few years there were five Ceroc nights a week in Norwich - there are still three. She had the first Ceroc franchise outside London and was probably responsible for many like myself taking up partner dancing seriously for the first time. Sadly, Cynthia died a year ago and has been badly missed. Arguably she has done as much for MJ dancing as anyone (not to mention her numerous other interests). :clap:

bigdjiver
14th-January-2005, 03:56 PM
I learned a lot from Virginia & Hannah when I was Cerocing in that area, but I would not like to place them in order with Phil, Michaela, and Emma of Ceroc Central, or Mike Ellard. These are just the ones I have experience of. They have all left MJ better than they found it, and I am sure there are very many others who have made a comparable difference in their own way. If lifetime achievement just involves service, then they all qualify.Cynthia of Norwich :tears: was in my first draft too, purely on reputation. I decided to restrict my post to personal experience. I have heard that she was the first franchisee outside London, perhaps even the first franchisee.

RobC
14th-January-2005, 04:37 PM
Cynthia of Norwich :tears: was in my first draft too, purely on reputation. I decided to restrict my post to personal experience. I have heard that she was the first franchisee outside London, perhaps even the first franchisee.
Hmmm, I was told the other day that it was Robert Austin who was the first Ceroc franchisee - dunno how accurate that is though. I only know him from LeJive days, but wasn't Oxford 'his area' ? If so, that would make him the first franchisee outside of london as well.

Yogi_Bear
14th-January-2005, 05:33 PM
Hmmm, I was told the other day that it was Robert Austin who was the first Ceroc franchisee - dunno how accurate that is though. I only know him from LeJive days, but wasn't Oxford 'his area' ? If so, that would make him the first franchisee outside of london as well.
Well, we always understood that Cynthia was the first. Whatever. She also had a move named after her ('Cynthia's pretzel').

Will
14th-January-2005, 05:41 PM
Cynthia was the first. I have that on good authority.

CJ
14th-January-2005, 06:26 PM
('Cynthia's pretzel').

Not related to "Sylvia's Mother," then?

Gus
14th-January-2005, 07:16 PM
Hmmm, I was told the other day that it was Robert Austin who was the first Ceroc franchisee - dunno how accurate that is though. I only know him from LeJive days, but wasn't Oxford 'his area' ? If so, that would make him the first franchisee outside of london as well.The 'story' I heard was indeed that Robert Ausin was the first 'franchisee' (not sure if it was a formal contracted deal) ... and liked the idea so much he converted it into 'LeJive' ... hence the years of animosity between Ceroc and LeJive ... dont know if this is true (well before my time) but at the time I was told this it was accepted as fact. As for the first franchisee of modern times when there was an ofiicial franchisee structure , I believe it was Cynthia ... in fact I heard it was her asking to set something up in Norwich which actualy led to the creation of the franchisee system. Can anyone validate any of the above?

RobC
14th-January-2005, 07:29 PM
The 'story' I heard was indeed that Robert Ausin was the first 'franchisee' (not sure if it was a formal contracted deal) ... and liked the idea so much he converted it into 'LeJive' ... hence the years of animosity between Ceroc and LeJive ... dont know if this is true (well before my time) but at the time I was told this it was accepted as fact. As for the first franchisee of modern times when there was an ofiicial franchisee structure , I believe it was Cynthia ... in fact I heard it was her asking to set something up in Norwich which actualy led to the creation of the franchisee system. Can anyone validate any of the above?
Everyone seems to have a different version of the story how Robert Austin came to split from Ceroc and setup LeJive. Some say he left, others that he was kicked out.

The last version I heard was that although Mr Austin was paying Mr Cronin for the pleasure of being a franchisee, Mr Cronin was not holding up his end of the contract, and unfortunately for James, Robert (and his brother who was a laywer) knew all about the law and franchising, so got heavy with James and got out of Ceroc setting up LeJive in competition.

Yogi_Bear
14th-January-2005, 10:12 PM
Not related to "Sylvia's Mother," then? Hmm, could be, how does that go?

Yogi_Bear
14th-January-2005, 10:15 PM
....... As for the first franchisee of modern times when there was an ofiicial franchisee structure , I believe it was Cynthia ... in fact I heard it was her asking to set something up in Norwich which actualy led to the creation of the franchisee system. Can anyone validate any of the above? Not sure, can anyone else help out here? Not many of the current crop of Norwich Ceroc people are forumites, as far as I know.

Minnie M
15th-January-2005, 04:18 PM
Sidestepping very slightly - I nominate JOHN SWEENEY

For about 8 years John's twice monthly emails of classes, dances and special events plus his great web page got most of the Modern Jive nation informed of what and when (as far as I know John's List started about the same time as mine, about 1995)

BTW John still provides a monthly news letter and his web page is still very very informative.

bigdjiver
15th-January-2005, 09:37 PM
Sidestepping very slightly - I nominate JOHN SWEENEY

For about 8 years John's twice monthly emails of classes, dances and special events plus his great web page got most of the Modern Jive nation informed of what and when (as far as I know John's List started about the same time as mine, about 1995)

BTW John still provides a monthly news letter and his web page is still very very informative. About the same time as yours? :wink: :whistle:

Thanks for reminding me of the debt I owe both of you, as do so many jivers and promoters who benefited from your unpaid work. John and yourself deserve recognition too.

One very special night stands out in my memory. I went up to Notre Dame on a good Friday, on the basis of your listing, but it was not on. ( Church hall, Good Friday - go figure )The organisers had the good grace to station somebody at the door to say that it was their fault, and hand out admit ones for another night. Thanks to your list I was aware that there was also a Fred & Becky West Coast event in Acton that evening, and I went to that. I missed the lesson, so I was sitting in a WCS venue, never having done a lesson, there were more guys than gals, and I tried to set myself into spectate mode. A girl asked me to dance. I said I could only do Ceroc, and she said that was wha she wanted. The dance finished, another invite, the another. I never sat down. WCS is a beautiful, graceful dance, but it turned out that the many of the lasses, two teachers amongst them, were Cerocers too, and wanted a bit more zing in a dance for a change. I had the best dancing night of my life, a record that lasted for over two years. We even got a compliment from Becky from the stage thrown in to cap it off.

Thanks, Lynda

Minnie M
15th-January-2005, 10:17 PM
About the same time as yours?

Gosh - you go back a long way !

John's list has always been more comprehensive than mine and his web site has been around longer than mine (my list on the web started under the Brighton link, the via Dancer, my own page was set up about 3 years ago), we did actually both start 'the list' about the same time and they even looked alike - just covered different areas. Jon Brett had a web site and list going at that time too.

JS derserves the contribution credit as he puts far more work into what he did (and still does) than me.

However, thank you for your kind words :hug: and I still get it wrong sometimes :whistle:

BTW I went to most of Fred & Becky's WCS classes/dances and it where I first met the Barkers - I was gob-stacked watching them dance WCS, I thought David was American, I made myself known to them and then introduced them to all my mates

Christine Keeble
16th-January-2005, 06:29 PM
:clap:
Yes Cronin took it to the masses like nobody else. But Christine and Michel did develop the first Ceroc moves - the first move, sway, yoyo, etc, so they defined the Ceroc style and deserve some credit whether they took it to the masses as much as James Cronin or not. I agree Cronin deserves the most recognition, but if I was Nicky Haslam I would be a bit hurt if someone had told me I had failed in taking Ceroc to the masses when I had founded Ceroc Australia and influenced a whole country and through the videos and DVDs many other Cerocers around the world.

Since I seem to be a nominee here I cannot resist putting in my tuppence worth. Michel Ange Lau deserves his nomination for his great talent and part in creating and shaping the dance. I too (very humbly) claim some recognition since I produced the How To Jive video at a time when there were no Ceroc franchises at all and dance teachers were not permitted through the portals of Ceroc's one venue (Busby's in Tottenham Court Road) - lest they spread the dance elsewhere.

However, in my humble opinion, the lifetime's achievement award has to go to James Cronin. My only difference of opinion with James was over the question of 'bringing the dance to the masses'. I was impatient to bring it to everyone and he wanted to retain ownership of it. While the video brought the dance to independent dance teachers via Dance Fairs at The Barbican, Olympia, Wembley & Earls Court etc. meanwhile James Cronin and Rob Austen battled it out in the franchise arena. So competition oils the wheels of effort and look where the dance is today!

So now I'll tell you why James gets my vote for the 'award'. While it was Michel's choreography that blew London away - it was James's tenacity that kept things going. I remember once, when half the Ceroc cabaret team resigned, and months of work were on the scrapheap: James was completely gutted but he simply said "Stop the taxi". He got out of the cab, threw up in the street, got back in, and started planning who was going to be in the next line-up of dancers. His vision was relentless. He stayed true to his dream through over 20 years.

In selling Ceroc to others James is STILL staying true to his dream. He knows that Ceroc needs young enthusiastic blood to bring it through now. Letting go of it must have been the most painful thing he ever did. By doing so he is leaving you all to make it into something even better.

Minnie M
16th-January-2005, 06:45 PM
Keeble Watson aka CHRISTINE Keeble :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

WELCOME

Starlight Dancer
16th-January-2005, 11:35 PM
:clap:

However, in my humble opinion, the lifetime's achievement award has to go to James Cronin. My only difference of opinion with James was over the question of 'bringing the dance to the masses'. I was impatient to bring it to everyone and he wanted to retain ownership of it. While the video brought the dance to independent dance teachers via Dance Fairs at The Barbican, Olympia, Wembley & Earls Court etc. meanwhile James Cronin and Rob Austen battled it out in the franchise arena. So competition oils the wheels of effort and look where the dance is today!

So now I'll tell you why James gets my vote for the 'award'. While it was Michel's choreography that blew London away - it was James's tenacity that kept things going. I remember once, when half the Ceroc cabaret team resigned, and months of work were on the scrapheap: James was completely gutted but he simply said "Stop the taxi". He got out of the cab, threw up in the street, got back in, and started planning who was going to be in the next line-up of dancers. His vision was relentless. He stayed true to his dream through over 20 years.


What a fascinating story, Christine! How lovely of you to share! And thank you for all you have done - would love to hear some more of the story sometime!

Roger C
19th-January-2005, 05:43 AM
[QUOTE=starlightdancer]
If my memory serves me right she was in the original UK cabarets

- Sorry that is not quite right Nicky was in my Cosmopolitan Jive Display Team and the choreography was all mine.
I paired her up with Simon De Lisle, who also went down under to teach and later compete.

that used Christine Keeble's and Michel Ange Lau's moves

- Sorry I did not use Christine and Michel's moves. I had to create a number of new steps for the routine.
Michel and I were the Choreographers for Le Roc at that time.

and took it to Australia.

- Yes, she did.

I included her because she was there from the start

- Nicky missed out on the start - she was one of my pupils
I started a few months after Michel's split from James Cronin. Michel was the choreographer for the Ceroc Display Team for awhile and Christine was my dance partner in the Ceroc Teaching Team at Porchester Hall, Bayswater. Christine later joined Michel teaching at the Centre Charles Peguy in Leicester Square. ( a French Youth Club sponsered by the French Government )

and took it to the masses.

- Mark Harding I believe was one of her students in the early days in Oz, later they became partners and took it to the Aussies.

- I don't know what equates " masses " The MJ scene in Oz is growing but is not as massive as over here and they have very serious competition from Salsa - which wasn't the case in the early days of MJ

- Franco ( a former member of my Cosmopolitan Jive Teaching Team ) and I were members of the Salsa Fusion Display Team at a time that Salsa was starting to get established in London.

Roger C.

Starlight Dancer
19th-January-2005, 12:23 PM
Thanks Roger for clarifying the history, it's nice to have the facts from someone who was there from the start and who equally deserves to be a nominee for the award. I was just wondering about the historic distinction between Cosmopolitan Jive and Ceroc and the influences upon each?

I managed to find some useful information on the web which I think it would be helpful to the forum to quote below:



http://www.docker.demon.co.uk/dance/cerochistory.html
Ceroc becomes established
To make Ceroc more widely known James, with some friends, formed a cabaret team to perform a synchronised dance in different London venues. The line up was James Cronin and Yum Yum Norman, Paul Aves and Janie Elton, Mark Derrington Bailey and Christine Keeble, and Richard & Katie Orr.

Initial choreography was by Kathy Burke and (in 1982) by Michel Ange Lau (who taught Rock ‘n’ Roll classes at Centre Charles Peguy in Leicester Square which James and Yum Yum attended). Michael worked with dance partner Christine Keeble to create and develop the new moves for the cabaret and so the First Move, Neck Break, Butterfly, Sway, Yo-yo and Ladyspin were born.

The 1982 “Gold Bug” routine, first performed at the Hammersmith Palais as a charity event, and the moves first recorded. Choreographer Michel Ange Lau is often credited as being the grandfather of Modern Jive which was fast developed into Ceroc and LeRoc. Harpers and Queen magazine gave the event a big spread and coined the strange phrase ‘Cerocabillies.’

Ceroc could not afford to pay Michel Ange Lau as a full time choreographer. Janie Elton (who would later marry James) took up the challenge, taking the cabaret team to clubs and events all over London. Michel returned to teaching with Christine and set up a ‘LeRoc’ Modern French Jive club. Christine Keeble, a competition winner in Brittany, pushed LeRoc forward but there was plenty of interaction between the two groups, neither of which were profit-making enterprises, and both of which popularised the new dance with cabarets.

In 1983 Ceroc moved to Pineapple Dance Studios and was teaching four classes a week. Sylvia Coleman (who had also trained under Michel and was a lawyer in the music industry) opened a weekly Ceroc night in a Central London nightclub in 1986. The year after that James and Sylvia formed a business partnership and developed the Ceroc formula of classes and freestyles.

RogerR
19th-January-2005, 09:43 PM
The music was always a major distinction between the two clubs. Ceroc -- largely a pop playlist, Le Roc -- pop plus jazz swing doo wop a much wider styl mix even including some french language tracks.

CJ
20th-January-2005, 04:14 PM
Hmm, could be, how does that go?

Well, I could tell you but it would cost 50 cents more for the next three minutes. :wink:

Robert Winter
19th-February-2005, 07:05 AM
...I had founded Ceroc Australia and influenced a whole country and through the videos and DVDs many other Cerocers around the world.Well, I think that Roger has filled in some of the blanks and I should add some more. Nicky started Ceroc IN Australia not Ceroc Australia.

I make note as Ceroc Australia is Mark Harding's company while Ceroc & Modern Jive is Nicky's company. Don't get the two confused. If you want to go to Marks classes then go to Ceroc Australia when in Sydney but if you want Nicky go to Ceroc & Modern Jive. Sorry to be pedantic but I am a little tired of dancing my feet off to promote CMJ only to find people thinking we are Ceroc Australia. No offense to Mark, he is a very "talented" dancer, but it is like like promoting Pepsi and then people wandering into their local supermarket and asking for Coke cause they think it is the same thing.

Also, Nicky started it over here and then Mark joined he after several months to help with the admin etc. They split about 5 ish years ago and now run their own separate dance companies.

But back to the thread topic, I suppose we should narrow it down; are we talking about personal achievement or organisational achievement.

As an example, Viktor is a much better dancer than James Cronin, however in founding Ceroc UK I think that James has given more to the market as a whole.

Ste
24th-July-2006, 01:07 AM
I mentioned Roger CHin above.

I have just remembered something else that was important. I hope this isn't divulging something important and I don't want to ring Roger to ask him because out of modesty, he might say no.

But I remember that in 2002 when I was still in Acton (where I spent a number of happy years as a solicitor!) I was speaking to Roger on the telephone about freestyle comps. I can't remember exactly but I think he said that he had or was about to suggest to the organisers of one of the major MJ companies a three tier competition system ie Intermediates, Advanced and a further category which teachers could enter. There would therefore be less pressure on the middle category ("Advanced") as at that time, that category was dominated by people like Janine and Clayton.

I can't claim that the present three tier competition system popular at Ceroc and Leroc comps (Intemediate/Advanced/ Open rather than Intermediate/Advanced and Intermediate/Open) was definitely Roger's creation, but it has just occurred to me that it could have been.

So this (possibly...I am not certain) could have been another of Roger's contributions to MJ.

I could be mistaken of course, and for that I apologise.

bigdjiver
24th-July-2006, 07:22 AM
I mentioned Roger CHin above.

I have just remembered something else that was important. I hope this isn't divulging something important and I don't want to ring Roger to ask him because out of modesty, he might say no.

But I remember that in 2002 when I was still in Acton (where I spent a number of happy years as a solicitor!) I was speaking to Roger on the telephone about freestyle comps. I can't remember exactly but I think he said that he had or was about to suggest to the organisers of one of the major MJ companies a three tier competition system ie Intermediates, Advanced and a further category which teachers could enter. There would therefore be less pressure on the middle category ("Advanced") as at that time, that category was dominated by people like Janine and Clayton.

I can't claim that the present three tier competition system popular at Ceroc and Leroc comps (Intemediate/Advanced/ Open rather than Intermediate/Advanced and Intermediate/Open) was definitely Roger's creation, but it has just occurred to me that it could have been.

So this (possibly...I am not certain) could have been another of Roger's contributions to MJ.

I could be mistaken of course, and for that I apologise.I have no doubt Roger has contributed a lot to the development of Modern Jive, and he may indeed have something to do with how competitons are structured. However the the Le Jive competition back in 98 had categories in which teachers were excluded, and others which they could enter.
The downside of that was that there was some feeling that the judging was biased towards the Le Jive teachers, which is an accusation that is bound to arise from the "sore loser" faction. On the other hand it is is to be expected that the organisational style and that of its teachers should match, and their teachers should do well. I do remember, sadly, the award of a prize being greeted with booing, the result of pent up feeling by some that previous results had been biased.

Innovation can carry penalties in a competition environment. The "Not how its done" factor. On the other hand audience may love originality. Getting disqualified can be a ticket into the "Hall of Fame".

David Franklin
24th-July-2006, 08:20 AM
there was some feeling that the judging was biased towards the Le Jive teachers, which is an accusation that is bound to arise from the "sore loser" faction. ~snip~ I do remember, sadly, the award of a prize being greeted with booing, the result of pent up feeling by some that previous results had been biased.I also remember a prize at LeJive being awarded by booing. However, I also remember that there was a couple who didn't place who were by a mile-and-a-half the standout dancers in the category. Everyone I spoke to assumed they were going to win. Now at that point I was an "innocent" to the whole politics thing, but it was very clear to me (and the friends I was with) that the wrong couple had won.

DavidB
24th-July-2006, 10:08 AM
- The rules.
- The dancer's interpretation of the rules.
- The historical interpretation of the rules.
- An individual judge's interpretation of the rules.
- The overall judging panel's interpretation of the rules.
- The audience's interpretation of the rules.

All these can be (and frequently are) different.

3 examples:
Is showcase just a choreographed routine, or does it have to have something extra?
Is double trouble 1 leader and 2 followers?
Is a team routine lots of people doing the same thing, or does it need group elements?

bigdjiver
24th-July-2006, 11:00 AM
- The rules.
- The dancer's interpretation of the rules.
- The historical interpretation of the rules.
- An individual judge's interpretation of the rules.
- The overall judging panel's interpretation of the rules.
- The audience's interpretation of the rules.

All these can be (and frequently are) different.

3 examples:
Is showcase just a choreographed routine, or does it have to have something extra?
Is double trouble 1 leader and 2 followers?
Is a team routine lots of people doing the same thing, or does it need group elements?:yeah:
Another example from Strictly Dance Fever, contestants who deliberately broke the rules of the dance with lifts, and lost points for it, but got their reward from public approval.

David Franklin
24th-July-2006, 11:10 AM
- The rules.
- The dancer's interpretation of the rules.
- The historical interpretation of the rules.
- An individual judge's interpretation of the rules.
- The overall judging panel's interpretation of the rules.
- The audience's interpretation of the rules.

All these can be (and frequently are) different.Sure. I am not saying the audience is always "right". My main point was that on the occasion I recall, the booing was not "the result of pent up feeling by some that previous results had been biased"; it was in fact the audience feeling that the current result was incorrect.

I have to say, I'm not sure what the judges should do when they decide a clear audience favourite should not, in fact, win, or even place. Without any form of explanation, feelings that "they wuz robbed" are natural. But the alternative is probably worse.

Your wife
24th-July-2006, 01:46 PM
Simon Borland!

I heard him say before he doesnt teach ceroc for a living but he does it for life!

:respect:

Ste
24th-July-2006, 05:46 PM
Oh so someone had done the three tier system before 2003.

But I think that Roger was the guy that was the catalyst to it being used in 2003.

People like me profitted from it because otherwise the intermediate section could have been packed with very good Advanced level dancers who wanted to win something.

In fact (no names) i remember someone who had come first in a foreign Advanced or Open, then came to the UK and won the intermediate.Cheeky man!