PDA

View Full Version : Is a £1 a pint too much for tap water??



under par
29th-December-2004, 02:46 AM
I had my first vist to Ashtons on 27th and had an absolutey brilliant evening.

It was only slightly spoiled by having to pay a whole pound sterling for tap water!! :mad:

I have never been to any other venue which so blatantly ripped dancers off in this way.

Is it normal for Ashtons to do this or did I go on a bad night?

All other aspects of the evening where excellent , the floor was great , the music brilliant, loads of great dancers and all the other fun bits to the night but I did feel aggrieved watching the bar staff turning on the tap to fill my glass and watch them ring up the till for my £1. :angry: :mad: :angry:

Anybody else got any similar experiences anywhere else?

Matthew
29th-December-2004, 03:27 AM
That's nuts!

We have it good in Australia -- all venues non-smoking, smoking also illegal in bar areas, and mandatory free tap water on pain of the club losing its liquor licence.

Lounge Lizard
29th-December-2004, 09:17 AM
I had my first vist to Ashtons on 27th and had an absolutey brilliant evening.

It was only slightly spoiled by having to pay a whole pound sterling for tap water!! :mad:

I have never been to any other venue which so blatantly ripped dancers off in this way.

Is it normal for Ashtons to do this or did I go on a bad night?

All other aspects of the evening where excellent , the floor was great , the music brilliant, loads of great dancers and all the other fun bits to the night but I did feel aggrieved watching the bar staff turning on the tap to fill my glass and watch them ring up the till for my £1. :angry: :mad: :angry:

Anybody else got any similar experiences anywhere else?
Must admit this one bugs me...........but
I have just booked a venue in the London area for a monthly dance and their only concern was.....salsa/MJ/R&R dancers do not spend money at the bar cos they drink water all night.
a MJ dance night could take £500 max over the bar. wheras an alternative dance night takes £5000
So to get the venue we had to accept them charging for water.
Do we accept paying for water to secure better venues or do we insist on free water and risk losing the good venues.

Do other venues such as Hipsters Hammersmith, Bromley provide tap water?

I have another venue we are looking at which is a school hall - very often this puts MJ dancers off, but we could provide free water! I dont think a school hall with free water would be as popular as a proper dance venue

I know many venues provide free water and a great dance hall - but dance organisers cannot always dictate the rules - we accept what the management stipulates
LL

Gus
29th-December-2004, 01:07 PM
....salsa/MJ/R&R dancers do not spend money at the bar cos they drink water all night.Maybe this is whole new trend ... but LL has highlighted a key problem with the MJ scene ... that the dancers are tight-wads( :wink: ). Given that the MJ dancers are generally fairly affluent it amazes me how hard it is to part them from their cash. If I'm out with mates on the town you are going to easily blow upwards of £30 but I've seen MJers trying to sneak in drinks to save a few pounds (in fact I've seen dancers try to sneak in full stop.) No matter how good a freestyle you put on (except maybe at Xmas) .. try charging more than £8 and you will end up watching an empty dancer floor though a competitor may be appalling but will get numbers just because they charge a few quid less. And don’t get me started about workshops .... out a local instructor in and charge £25 .. no probs ... get a Nationally rated instructor and try charging £30 and again you hit problems. Sometimes there really is no logic in this game

{Rant Over}

Dreadful Scathe
29th-December-2004, 01:08 PM
Im not sure where you legally stand - can you refuse to pay for tap water ? I can fully understand LL's point and realise that venue owners have to make money, and bottled water is quite acceptable but to sell tap water just sounds like they are trying to maximise profits and seems to be a cynical slap in the face. After all, if they are that worried about profits they would get better paying customers in - they fact that they dont suggests that they cant!

Gus
29th-December-2004, 01:25 PM
.....but to sell tap water just sounds like they are trying to maximise profits and seems to be a cynical slap in the face. I would suggest that charging for tap water is no diffeenet than the markup that exists on current bar products. A bottle of Becks may sell across the bar for £3, which probably costs them 50p ... so a £2.50 profit. If I sell you a pint of water for £1 I make a £1 profit. Another view is if I run a venue I need to make £x return ... I can either make that across the bar or by charging for the room. Either way the total cost to the punters will be the same. Would you prefer to pay £15 entry and 10p a pint of water or £8 entry and £1 a pint. Your choice ... BUT if the retincence about allowing venues to make a commercial return continues the MJ community will only have itself to blame when there are no venues willing to accept bookings :angry: . Wonder what the MJDA would stand on this issue?

bigdjiver
29th-December-2004, 03:12 PM
... Do other venues such as Hipsters Hammersmith, Bromley provide tap water? ... Years back Bromley used to have a free drinking fountain with plastic cup supplied (to the right of the bar). They started to cover it up, and charge for bottled water. I wrote the hall a stiff letter of protest, and threatened to send a similar one to the local newspapers, along the lines that it was a sports facility and they were encouraging the punters to drink less healthy drinks, and the public could walk into the toilets for free, and drink the tap water from there for free, etc.

They wrote back to say that they had reversed their decision, and the facility would be restored. I moved away before I could find out what happened, and I do not know what the situation is now. Sometimes protesting works.

Banana Man
29th-December-2004, 03:14 PM
I would suggest that charging for tap water is no diffeenet than the markup that exists on current bar products. A bottle of Becks may sell across the bar for £3, which probably costs them 50p ... so a £2.50 profit. If I sell you a pint of water for £1 I make a £1 profit. Another view is if I run a venue I need to make £x return ... I can either make that across the bar or by charging for the room. Either way the total cost to the punters will be the same. Would you prefer to pay £15 entry and 10p a pint of water or £8 entry and £1 a pint. Your choice ... BUT if the retincence about allowing venues to make a commercial return continues the MJ community will only have itself to blame when there are no venues willing to accept bookings :angry: . Wonder what the MJDA would stand on this issue?

I agree there is a strong commercial aspect involved here, and it does depend on how the event promoter structures their profit. When I was in Perth at the BFG I had to get the guy behind the bar to repeat the price of a bottle of Becks three times - the price - £1 :D , the bar was run by Franck's team, not by the venue owners. :cheers: Maybe it's a reflection of the costs of hiring venues in different parts of the country as to how much mark-up is put on drinks.

I think, but I'm not sure here, that most MJ organisations are membership based allowing them to provide bar facilities in unlicensed premises, any profit made here is additional to entrance/class charges. In venues that already have a bar I guess you have to accept how that venue operates commercially as part of the deal.

Personally I think that free tap water should be provided at all venues or alterntively people should be allowed to take their own bottled water in with them.

IMHO most MJers go to dance, not to drink (alcohol), and only want soft drinks. At the bigger venues, many people drive and don't want to drink.

I was curious to see what the legal position was, and unfortunately unlike Down Under, we're not quite there yet on free water. However, there is a government strategy paper out on "alcohol harm reduction" which has the following objective in it: "A commitment to provide reasonably priced soft drinks and to make free water available on all bars". So maybe there's hope yet.

At the end of the day though Gus is right, money has to be made somewhere - entry or bar/cloakroom mark-ups. Maybe the solution is to put the entry charges up and have a non-profit bar. :devil: :eek: :whistle:

Bangers & Mash
29th-December-2004, 03:16 PM
I would suggest that charging for tap water is no diffeenet than the markup that exists on current bar products. A bottle of Becks may sell across the bar for £3, which probably costs them 50p ... so a £2.50 profit. If I sell you a pint of water for £1 I make a £1 profit. Another view is if I run a venue I need to make £x return ... I can either make that across the bar or by charging for the room. Either way the total cost to the punters will be the same. Would you prefer to pay £15 entry and 10p a pint of water or £8 entry and £1 a pint. Your choice ... BUT if the retincence about allowing venues to make a commercial return continues the MJ community will only have itself to blame when there are no venues willing to accept bookings :angry: . Wonder what the MJDA would stand on this issue?

Gus makes a fair point. Most venues need to show a profit and so charging for water is probably not unreasonable. Especially since they have to pay for the staff to pour the water, the glass to put it in, cleaning the glass, heating the water to clean the glass, and then pay the water company to supply the water.

Even with £1 a pint, MJ is still a very cheap night out - less than £10 for a whole evening of great dancing and great music (except Tuesdays in certain locations :whistle: ).

Lynn
29th-December-2004, 03:42 PM
Personally I think that free tap water should be provided at all venues or alterntively people should be allowed to take their own bottled water in with them. I carry my own water everywhere I go (admittedly a habit I got into when living in West Africa!) - just a small bottle filled from the tap at home. I wouldn't get it out in a restaurant etc, and even if out dancing would sometimes buy a soft drink at first and keep my water till later. But I wouldn't be too happy to be not allowed to have it with me.

under par
29th-December-2004, 05:12 PM
I think my shock was enhanced because it was a Xmas Party night with FREE champagne cocktails in the 1st hour, with FREE food being handed out too, later there was FREE coffee and tea, and FREE clementines and mince pies! :whistle:

So why £1 for tap water?? :angry:


It was a great evening though. Well organised and everybody really helpful and friendly , Mrs Par and I will venture north again some time. Maybe take our own bottled water eh!

Sparkles
29th-December-2004, 06:11 PM
I think charging for tap water is rediculous.
Just to go back to basics for a sec, water is a survival essential; along with shelter, warmth and air (food obviously being a latter consideration but also essential). To charge for something which is free and an essential commodity is lunacy :angry: . If people wish to drink mineral water which is specially bottled, and is supposedly of a higher quality than tap water, then that they should pay for the privelidge is not outrageous.
I think that if you're going to a venue that charges for tap water you should take a bottle of your own from home (admittedly you might not have known this would be the case on your fist visit, but next time...). If the difference is, as LL says, £4500 - then they're not going to make up the short-fall by charging for tap water, are they?
It shows lack of consideration for the punters from the management of the venue and makes the dancing organisations that hire the venues look bad. Plus it gets the dancers annoyed!
It's not about the punters' lack of funds, it's the princple.

Chicklet
29th-December-2004, 06:31 PM
I have to agree that I hate paying for water and have once or twice made a small, yet polite, scene when asked to do so...but can see the economic issues too....what about paying £1 at the door for a handstamp / paper wristband / token / x for "free" water the rest of the night?

bigdjiver
29th-December-2004, 06:50 PM
I had my first vist to Ashtons on 27th and had an absolutey brilliant evening.

It was only slightly spoiled by having to pay a whole pound sterling for tap water!! :mad:

I have never been to any other venue which so blatantly ripped dancers off in this way.

Is it normal for Ashtons to do this or did I go on a bad night?... I have been to Ashtons several times, when admission was only £3. I could understand them trying to make money on the water in that circumstance. At that time the managment did annoy me by not having the air conditioning on. I suspected that this was part of nightclub craft, where they deliberately keep the punters hot so that they will drink more.

and I was told that I could be evicted if I brought my own drink (inc water).

Gus
29th-December-2004, 07:26 PM
It shows lack of consideration for the punters from the management of the venue and makes the dancing organisations that hire the venues look bad. Plus it gets the dancers annoyed!COME ON!! This is real world. Since when are organisers supposed to be a charity?? If punters start paying an economic rate for events THEN they have a right to complain. Because of the lack of willing of MJers to pay a realistic fee I have to get 95 punters through the door just to break even ..... AND the venue expects to make £X profit on the bar or I lose the venue! What is so hard for dancers to undestand about what it costs to run good events. To put on quailty events costs! If you dancers want to be stuck in your old village hall and pay peanuts... FINE ... but if you want organisers to put on events with large dancefloors, the best sound and ight systems and top DJs .... you have to either pay for it on the door or at the bar ....

Goes off to find a nice dark corner to mumble incoherently to himself....

Dance Demon
29th-December-2004, 09:10 PM
COME ON!! This is real world. Since when are organisers supposed to be a charity?? If punters start paying an economic rate for events THEN they have a right to complain. Because of the lack of willing of MJers to pay a realistic fee I have to get 95 punters through the door just to break even ..... AND the venue expects to make £X profit on the bar or I lose the venue! What is so hard for dancers to undestand about what it costs to run good events. To put on quailty events costs! If you dancers want to be stuck in your old village hall and pay peanuts... FINE ... but if you want organisers to put on events with large dancefloors, the best sound and ight systems and top DJs .... you have to either pay for it on the door or at the bar ....

Goes off to find a nice dark corner to mumble incoherently to himself....

:yeah:
Got to agree with Gus here. Most venues that have a bar, expect to make a profit from it. MJ nights are filled with people who..
1. drove to the venue, so don't drink alcohol
2. Don't want to drink too much alcohol cause it impairs their dancing
Not everyone is keen to pay bar prices for soft drinks. But if everyone was drinking the free water, and not spending money over the bar, the venue owners would soon pull the plug. Good venues are very difficult to come by, and I've seen a few lost because of poor bar takings. Bearing in mind that the venue has to pay wages to bar staff. If you go out for the night clubbing, it costs at least £10 to get into most nightclubs, and the drink isn't always cheap, yet people pay these prices and rarely quibble. Night clubs rarely supply free water either. It's a hard one for promoters, who often have to decide whetherit's worth all the hassle trying to provide a decent venue for people to dance , and get hassle from punters and venue owners......

Sparkles
29th-December-2004, 11:11 PM
I'm not disagreeing about the profit situation etc., and I'm not sure there's quite such a need to get irate about this - everyone's allowed an opinion. All I'm saying is that paying for tap water doesn't seem on to me and that maybe there should be another alternative to making up some of the short-fall?
At a couple of venues I go to there is no tap water because there is no tap! It's bottled water or bring your own - which seems fair enough to me. I know this may sound a bit backwards but if punters are told that the options are to buy bottled water or something else from the bar, and although are not told 'bring your own bottled water if you like' but are not penalised for doing so, then won't this increase profit margins? In my experience people are too lazy, myself included, to cart around large quantities of water and are less likely to grumble about paying for mineral water than tap water. So don't offer the option of tap water...? Maybe?
OK if this isn't a good solution, fine, but I just feel there has to be another way...
...goes away to put thinking cap on...

Gadget
30th-December-2004, 01:39 AM
Maybe this is whole new trend ... but LL has highlighted a key problem with the MJ scene ... that the dancers are tight-wads( :wink: ). Given that the MJ dancers are generally fairly affluent it amazes me how hard it is to part them from their cash.
Is this true? Is the average MJ'er "affluent"?

Personally I make sacrifices on other areas of my life; on 'non-essential' goods, services and foods so that I can pay for my dancing. I am on the opposite side of "affluent".
But if you think on it, two classes a week at £6 plus £5 travel and another £5 on food/drink that you wouldn't have spent on that night, and another £15 for a monthly party, and about another £25 per month saving for big events, that's about £170 per month disposable income (about £2K off your yearly income) not including shoes, clothes, smellies,...

:tears: I'm just getting depressed :sad: let's move onto another topic of conversation.

lindyloo
2nd-January-2005, 12:24 PM
I write in Ashtons defence again.

Ashton's pays a huge amount in Council tax, infact the reason the other 2 dance floors were knocked down was because the venue literally could not survive. The council tax was then £120 000 per year not to mention all the other expenses. I did at one time have all of the figures. The owner said I could keep the hall from being knocked down if I paid him £5000 per week!! (this is all true as I tried everything to save the building, even went to The Prime Minister, but to no avail)

The venue were offered a massive amount for the land and reluctantly (as the building has been in the family a long time) had to sell, but on the proviso they could keep the building they have now.

The rates and bills on our new building are still phenomenal, but I'm willing to do all I can to keep the building. The fact of the matter is however that as the dancers tend not to spend any money over the bar, the venue makes very little and I can't afford the amount they want in rent on a Fri night (especially when they put on 2 bar staff & a person on the door so that we never have any trouble) so I have to agree to certain concessions and 2 of these are that people can not bring in their own drink and that £1 will be charged for water. Hence the reason I, not the venue, will evict people that bring their own water and I feel very strongly about all of this. I have never taken a drink to a venue and would never contemplate doing so.

The moral of the story is if you want this dance floor to survive then you have to buy a drink. It's not an expensive night out £7 on a Friday for 6 hrs of dancing. Even if you bought 3 pints of water it would still be a cheap night out in my book!

Gus
2nd-January-2005, 02:24 PM
The moral of the story is if you want this dance floor to survive then you have to buy a drink. It's not an expensive night out £7 on a Friday for 6 hrs of dancing. Even if you bought 3 pints of water it would still be a cheap night out in my book! :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: I'm yet to hear a cogent counter-argument!

MartinHarper
4th-January-2005, 09:23 PM
I prefer venues that charge for tap water, no matter how much, to venues that do not provide tap water at all. That said, I do dislike venues that ban me from bringing my own drink, and have a long queue at the bar.

If I'm being served a pint of tap water from a bar (as opposed to pouring it myself), I kinda prefer to pay a small amount. It reassures me that I'm not wasting the server's time, or getting in the way of "paying customers". Maybe I should be giving a tip if the water is free?

Daniel Sandars
7th-February-2005, 03:37 PM
I've had a hand in helping a young 'enterprising' lady set up a bar, 'rocktails' (http://www.bluedance.org.uk/81012/84865.html), for a new modern-Jive night.

She provides tap water for free and doesn't sell it! :cheers:
:confused: I believe in any hot dancing environment, such as a night club it is a matter of health and safety law that 'Tap Water' should be freely available?

Her major claim to fame is the provision of exotic non-alcholic drinks that makes it way-cool to be drinking, jiving and then driving :waycool:

In my book drink ruins both jiving and driving skills, even if the drunk thinks otherwise!! :devil:

D

bigdjiver
7th-February-2005, 04:08 PM
For those that care, Wicksteed Pavilion, St Neots, Luton(?) and the Bedford Corn exchange are among the free water venues.

Dan Hudson
7th-February-2005, 04:15 PM
Gus makes a fair point. Most venues need to show a profit and so charging for water is probably not unreasonable. Especially since they have to pay for the staff to pour the water, the glass to put it in, cleaning the glass, heating the water to clean the glass, and then pay the water company to supply the water.



:yeah: :yeah:

Its not the water you pay for its the service etc etc.... I don't necessarily agree with it, but as Gus says the venue has to show a profit...

that said, my venue at Greenwich has free iced tap water available FREE. My old venue charged becasue the standard of the drinking water in the area was so poor, they had to install some flash filteration kit, hence the charge... still only 50p per pint...

Daniel Sandars
7th-February-2005, 04:22 PM
:yeah: :yeah:

Its not the water you pay for its the service etc etc.... I don't necessarily agree with it, but as Gus says the venue has to show a profit...


That is because dance promoter ain't paying the true cost for the venue, but by definition is pocketing an implicit discount that his dancers are expected pay at the bar.!! :devil:

Andy McGregor
7th-February-2005, 04:24 PM
I've had a hand in helping a young 'enterprising' lady set up a bar, 'rocktails' (http://www.bluedance.org.uk/81012/84865.html), for a new modern-Jive night.

She provides tap water for free and doesn't sell it! :cheers:
:confused: I believe in any hot dancing environment, such as a night club it is a matter of health and safety law that 'Tap Water' should be freely available?

Her major claim to fame is the provision of exotic non-alcholic drinks that makes it way-cool to be drinking, jiving and then driving :waycool:

In my book drink ruins both jiving and driving skills, even if the drunk thinks otherwise!! :devil:

D
At our nights we provide free, iced, tap-water with a few slices of fresh lemon to freshen it up a bit - and we give away tea and coffee. At our venue in Shoreham there is a bar which you can make a request to have opened for your event. But they won't let you give away water if the bar's open because the bar sells water. And they don't really like to open the bar because jivers don't drink enough. On the other hand, I get requests every week to have the bar opened. I suppose that, as an organiser, I'd get more people through the door if the bar was opened - what should I do? :confused:

Swinging bee
7th-February-2005, 04:34 PM
I suppose one could sneek off to the toilet and fill up the "secreted bottle" but there is always the problem..........the seat might fall on your head!.......

Andy McGregor
7th-February-2005, 04:52 PM
I suppose one could sneek off to the toilet and fill up the "secreted bottle" but there is always the problem..........the seat might fall on your head!.......
Don't drink it straight from the toilet - that's just labradors :sick:

Pammy
7th-February-2005, 04:58 PM
At our nights we provide free, iced, tap-water with a few slices of fresh lemon to freshen it up a bit - and we give away tea and coffee. At our venue in Shoreham there is a bar which you can make a request to have opened for your event. But they won't let you give away water if the bar's open because the bar sells water. And they don't really like to open the bar because jivers don't drink enough. On the other hand, I get requests every week to have the bar opened. I suppose that, as an organiser, I'd get more people through the door if the bar was opened - what should I do? :confused:

Keep the bar closed...

What you offer is somewhat unique and in the summer months, will be all the more important. I think it's great what you do with your water Andy...

Swinging bee
7th-February-2005, 05:01 PM
Re the labrador...... Don't know about that Andy ,never saw my ex- wife drink!

Chef
7th-February-2005, 05:15 PM
At our nights we provide free, iced, tap-water with a few slices of fresh lemon to freshen it up a bit - and we give away tea and coffee. At our venue in Shoreham there is a bar which you can make a request to have opened for your event. But they won't let you give away water if the bar's open because the bar sells water. And they don't really like to open the bar because jivers don't drink enough. On the other hand, I get requests every week to have the bar opened. I suppose that, as an organiser, I'd get more people through the door if the bar was opened - what should I do? :confused:

It is a tough call for an organiser who wants a good evening and wants to make enough money to make it worth their effort.

My vote is for keeping the bar closed. I always have to drive to venues so I never drink. I don't drink alcohol when dancing even when I am at weekenders or at my home venue because the dancing is much more important to me than having a drink. I have never come across someone that dances better after having a drink and have been the victim of women that are so drunk that they can barely stand up let alone dance. I have always thought that each partner deserves the best dance I can give at that time. If I was drinking that wouldn't be as good as it could be. I would feel bad about that.

Where there is no bar the people that care more about the dance will not mind too much. That is the sort of place that I would want to be.

Just one personal vote.

Happy Dancing

El Salsero Gringo
7th-February-2005, 05:28 PM
The arguments about venues needing to show a profit are well made.

However, to charge for tap-water undermines any credibility that Ceroc is a fitness activity. As an absolute minimum there should be a drinking tap in the bathrooms.

And (as they do at Ashtons) to actively prevent me from bringing a bottle of water along with my towel, deodorant, change of shirt etc. is bordering on the immoral.

stewart38
7th-February-2005, 05:49 PM
The arguments about venues needing to show a profit are well made.

However, to charge for tap-water undermines any credibility that Ceroc is a fitness activity. As an absolute minimum there should be a drinking tap in the bathrooms.

And (as they do at Ashtons) to actively prevent me from bringing a bottle of water along with my towel, deodorant, change of shirt etc. is bordering on the immoral.


So I assume you would be happy to pay 2* current entrance fee :sick:

El Salsero Gringo
7th-February-2005, 05:58 PM
When the essence of the evening is an energetic, sweaty, aerobic activity like dance, it is nothing but sharp business practice to cross-subsidise a loss-making enterprise by selling, of all things, tap water.

Since I imagine very few people currently drink seven pints of water each night, I don't see why a doubling of the entrance fee would be needed to balance the books.

Chef
7th-February-2005, 06:16 PM
So I assume you would be happy to pay 2* current entrance fee :sick:

I would not be happy to pay two times the current entrance fee.

But I would be prepared to pay an equal share of the organisers costs and profit margin for the evening. I am not looking for beer drinker/smoker/dance shoe fetishists (caught myself out there :blush: ) to subsidise my evening either. Dance events users pay what it costs. Beer drinkers pay the costs of their provision etc. All I want is transparent and justifiable charging. Nobody is against people and places making a fair profit. If it really costs £1 to provide me with a plastic glass and someone to turn the tap then by all means charge it.

Andy. At least when you don't have a bar then you don't have a bar manager whining at you that your punters don't drink enough beer. How much beer would we have to drink in order to make a bar manager happy anyway?

Leisure centres and private gyms provide free water AND have a bar for customers that don't all drink to rugby club club standards and there seems to be lots of them in my town. Wonder how they do it?

Happy Dancing.

stewart38
8th-February-2005, 12:28 PM
I write in Ashtons defence again.

Ashton's pays a huge amount in Council tax, infact the reason the other 2 dance floors were knocked down was because the venue literally could not survive. The council tax was then £120 000 per year not to mention all the other expenses. I did at one time have all of the figures. The owner said I could keep the hall from being knocked down if I paid him £5000 per week!! (this is all true as I tried everything to save the building, even went to The Prime Minister, but to no avail)

The venue were offered a massive amount for the land and reluctantly (as the building has been in the family a long time) had to sell, but on the proviso they could keep the building they have now.

The rates and bills on our new building are still phenomenal, but I'm willing to do all I can to keep the building. The fact of the matter is however that as the dancers tend not to spend any money over the bar, the venue makes very little and I can't afford the amount they want in rent on a Fri night (especially when they put on 2 bar staff & a person on the door so that we never have any trouble) so I have to agree to certain concessions and 2 of these are that people can not bring in their own drink and that £1 will be charged for water. Hence the reason I, not the venue, will evict people that bring their own water and I feel very strongly about all of this. I have never taken a drink to a venue and would never contemplate doing so.

The moral of the story is if you want this dance floor to survive then you have to buy a drink. It's not an expensive night out £7 on a Friday for 6 hrs of dancing. Even if you bought 3 pints of water it would still be a cheap night out in my book!


This is what was said

If this is true whats the problem ?

Did people read this ?

Ashtons is a great venue , good venues cost ? Im sure if we could dance in an open field costs could be kept down.

Chef
9th-February-2005, 04:45 PM
The moral of the story is if you want this dance floor to survive then you have to buy a drink. It's not an expensive night out £7 on a Friday for 6 hrs of dancing. Even if you bought 3 pints of water it would still be a cheap night out in my book!

There is a MORAL to this story?

What is it?

Is it that it actually costs £10 for the use of the hall but we are going to charge you £7 for the entrance and £3 for the water.

Is it that we are going to put a 1000% mark up on pints of water but not put the same mark up on beer. The £25 pint of beer would get an interesting reaction from punters.

Is it like the "free" mobile phones that you have to pay £30 a month for.

IMO undercharging for one thing and then overcharging for something else (and getting angry if someone doesn't want to buy it) has the same IMMORALITY as a Soho clip joint that lets you in for £5 and then "requires" you to have a £250 bottle of champagne.

I know it is common practice for night clubs to charge reasonable entrance fees and then jack up the drinks prices but let us not start trying to bring morality into it.

It is a common but a devious practice none the less.

I don't mind paying what it costs to keep these fine dance halls going but these devious methods of getting the money from me insult my intelligence and annoy me greatly.

Happy Dancing.

Clive Long
9th-February-2005, 04:52 PM
<< snip >>

IMO undercharging for one thing and then overcharging for something else (and getting angry if someone doesn't want to buy it) has the same IMMORALITY as a Soho clip joint that lets you in for £5 and then "requires" you to have a £250 bottle of champagne.

<< snip >>


So now we know where you are when you aren't dancing.



<< snip >>
I don't mind paying what it costs to keep these fine dance halls going but these devious methods of getting the money from me insult my intelligence and annoy me greatly.

Happy Dancing.

All I can say is I think you are wrong on this. The point has been very well made by Linda - the money has to come from somewhere. If you resent the prices then you take responsibility for running the venue for a month and see what your view is then. Cross-subsidizing is fine here because I don't feel I'm being ripped off.

Clive

Chef
9th-February-2005, 05:28 PM
So now we know where you are when you aren't dancing.

I am just doing research on other dance forms. :whistle: I might have worked out where Lory picked up some of her inspiration. :whistle:




All I can say is I think you are wrong on this. The point has been very well made by Linda - the money has to come from somewhere. If you resent the prices then you take responsibility for running the venue for a month and see what your view is then. Cross-subsidizing is fine here because I don't feel I'm being ripped off.
Clive

Which bit do you think I am wrong about? Is it the bit about me not minding paying what it costs to keep these fine dance events running. I do not resent the prices - I resent the devious way that the money is extracted.

I understand that it is all a matter of how peoples minds work. We are all charged, say £4.99, for an item. We all know it really costs £5 but somehow our attention stops when we see the £4 bit of the price so it really doesn't cost as much as we think. When we get the 1p change we feel good that we sort of got a present back as well. Well it doesn't work on me - I see through it and see that someone else is making assumptions about how my mind works and use it to their advantage. I resent that.

I utterly agree with Linda - the money does have to come from somewhere. All I am asking for is for event organisers to be up front and HONEST about it. To me cross subsidizing is not honest. The reason that event organisers have to operate in this way is because one cannot do it in isolation because people will just go to the event with the lower ticket price. We had a similar argument about banning smoking in dance venues - can't do it or the smokers will go elsewhere and we will lose money.

Just because everyone HAS to cross subsidize doesn't make it HONEST.

I have money to spend on my interest of dancing (a quick calculation last year revealled it was £3200 :eek: ) but I don't like being duped, manipulated, ripped off, hoodwinked (or whatever you prefer to express it as) or just being offered very poor value for money.

I don't think you are being ripped off (don't think I ever made that suggestion). I just said that I think cross subsidizing is devious and dishonest.

As always, it's just my personal opinion.

bigdjiver
9th-February-2005, 05:46 PM
There is a fixed cost in the glasses and the time taken to serve a drink, and the cost of the drink to the venue. If the add onto that their profit margin, I have no quarrel. If they add more onto a pint of water than they do onto a pint of beer I have very severe objections, and that is what appears to be happening in some venues.

Daniel Sandars
9th-February-2005, 08:46 PM
I've often considered the bars that I've arranged as part of providing a service to dancers. Based on what I've seen you would need either extortion or 150 dancers before you would take anything more than a token profit

bigdjiver
9th-February-2005, 11:59 PM
I've often considered the bars that I've arranged as part of providing a service to dancers. Based on what I've seen you would need either extortion or 150 dancers before you would take anything more than a token profit That is true of events in halls that do not have a regular bar. The overheads in moving everything in and out, and probable wastage. make it impractical. I have been very pleased, as a customer, with the facilities that you have arranged :clap: , but always feared that they were loss-makers. In a social club where they are used to a few evenings a week where there is a handful of regulars in, a Ceroc bar might not seem too bad, but disappointing for the numbers involved. In London nightclub terms us dancers are probably a nightmare.

spindr
10th-February-2005, 02:16 AM
Well, if £1 a pint is too expensive, then have a drink beforehand outside of the venue -- if you are driving you could also keep a spare bottle of water in the car for afterwards, this is also useful if you miss "last orders" (because you are too busy dancing).

Sometimes, you can also find drinks machines at venues that sell cans and bottles at less than the bar price -- which at least means you aren't ripping anyone off.

SpinDr.

P.S. If you are determined to smuggle in drinks, then at least bring a brand sold at that venue -- otherwise it'll just cause problems for the organisers -- they might even get charged corkage.

P.P.S. Record soft drink prices at dances so far: ~£3 for a pint of lemonade in Woking and ~£1.60 for a pint of blackcurrant and water at Fleet.

El Salsero Gringo
10th-February-2005, 02:40 AM
I'm beginning to wonder if the bar wouldn't actually make more money by giving out tap-water free and doing pints of soda-water with a dash of cordial (lime, blackcurrant etc.) for say 50p. Speaking only for myself (as ever) I'd be more likely to have two, three or four pints through the evening rather than just one. And I'd be happier about it too.

under par
10th-February-2005, 03:48 AM
Well, if £1 a pint is too expensive, then have a drink beforehand outside of the venue -- if you are driving you could also keep a spare bottle of water in the car for afterwards, this is also useful if you miss "last orders" (because you are too busy dancing).

Sometimes, you can also find drinks machines at venues that sell cans and bottles at less than the bar price -- which at least means you aren't ripping anyone off.

SpinDr.

P.S. If you are determined to smuggle in drinks, then at least bring a brand sold at that venue -- otherwise it'll just cause problems for the organisers -- they might even get charged corkage.

P.P.S. Record soft drink prices at dances so far: ~£3 for a pint of lemonade in Woking and ~£1.60 for a pint of blackcurrant and water at Fleet.


Is this the SpinDr or Dreadful Scathe! :eek:

bobgadjet
10th-February-2005, 01:13 PM
I think my shock was enhanced because it was a Xmas Party night with FREE champagne cocktails in the 1st hour, with FREE food being handed out too, later there was FREE coffee and tea, and FREE clementines and mince pies! :whistle:

So why £1 for tap water?? :angry:


It was a great evening though. Well organised and everybody really helpful and friendly , Mrs Par and I will venture north again some time. Maybe take our own bottled water eh!
OK, come back to Ashtons all very well.....but.......bringing your own drinks onto the premises (not necessarily drinking it) is against the managements policy.
Sometimes we have been "instructed" to confiscate the bottles. they are generally given back at the end of the evening.

WHen I used to go Line dancing there I have seen people ejected from the premises because they instisted on bringing in their own drinks.

I'm appauled at some of the prices charged for soft drinks, and for water especially. The most I have paid for bottled water was..... £9 a pint, yes, thats NINE POUNDS a PINT. Mind you it was a posh restaurant in Mayfair, but thats not really the point.

When I was hiring venues for Line dancing they quickly learned that the bar was not taking money, so they upped the rent two fold. That meant that as people were not paying the venue thru the bar, I was compelled either to up the charge on the door, or stand the cost,a s by then the night had become established.

So, getting back to Ashtons..... do you allow FREE water, and put the entrance up to, say £10, all because the venue wants to make a profit?

I had one hall that, when questioned about charging for TAP water, made a policy that they would no longer sell TAP water. They said it was for "health and safety" reasons, and they only sold bottled water.

I also know that a lot more venues are about to follow the same route for water especially, so you may be charged about £1 a bottle soon, and that would be about £3 a pint in some cases.

So be warned.

It's not just water either. What about, say, Orange SQUASH ?
The most I've been asked for, but refused, was £3 a pint, and that was from an optic measured splash before the rest being tap water. I told them I had a right to refuse as the prices were not on "clear" display.

My personal opinion is that the venues have a responsibility to charge a "fair" price for anything and not to take advantage of a situation, but we are far from that becoming law.

I also personally think that there should be a law/rule or what have you, on the maximum ANY venue can charge on something that should be such a basic supply...... in our country.

QUESTION
How much would YOU be prepared to pay for a glass of water if you REALLY needed it ? What if you had money, but happened to be a sufferer after the Tsunami, with no other drinking water available ?

Chef
10th-February-2005, 04:43 PM
When I was hiring venues for Line dancing they quickly learned that the bar was not taking money, so they upped the rent two fold. That meant that as people were not paying the venue thru the bar, I was compelled either to up the charge on the door, or stand the cost, as by then the night had become established.

You have to charge the customers more. You and all organisers are in business to make a profit rather than make a loss. You may lose customers to the point of having to close the venue but would you mind since the only other option is to pay out of your own pocket. The venue then loses an event and if it can't sustain itself then it will eventually close down. Thats the nature of business. I have seen some venues that have been struggling and they get a booking for the hall and in a desperate attempt to make enough money for the other nights when they are empty they really caned the drinks prices. THe result was that the group that booked them never went there again and told all the other groups about the venue. With few bookings and bad publicity of their own making they closed even faster.


So, getting back to Ashtons..... do you allow FREE water, and put the entrance up to, say £10, all because the venue wants to make a profit?

In short YES. I have no trouble with the venue making a profit, just the means that it chooses.


I had one hall that, when questioned about charging for TAP water, made a policy that they would no longer sell TAP water. They said it was for "health and safety" reasons, and they only sold bottled water.

Well in that case either a) Their tap water had genuinely become dangerous to health the instant you asked the question b) Their tap water had always been dangerous but they had been prepared to endager the health of hundreds of people for profit or c) the reason they were giving was a LIE.


I also know that a lot more venues are about to follow the same route for water especially, so you may be charged about £1 a bottle soon, and that would be about £3 a pint in some cases.
So be warned.

Thanks for the infromation. I will continue going to the many excellent venues that have a fairly priced (or free) soft drinks bar like Hipsters, Great Bookham, Rocsters, Jive Hive. I love the music, that I don't end up dancing with drunk people, and that I don't mix with people dishonest enough to ask for £3 a pint for tap water.


It's not just water either. What about, say, Orange SQUASH ?
The most I've been asked for, but refused, was £3 a pint, and that was from an optic measured splash before the rest being tap water. I told them I had a right to refuse as the prices were not on "clear" display.

Oh come now. A venue has to make a profit somehow. :whistle:


My personal opinion is that the venues have a responsibility to charge a "fair" price for anything and not to take advantage of a situation, but we are far from that becoming law.

I do now and always have totally agreed with this thought.


QUESTION
How much would YOU be prepared to pay for a glass of water if you REALLY needed it ? What if you had money, but happened to be a sufferer after the Tsunami, with no other drinking water available ?

Profiteering used to be a criminal offence during wartime, and extortion still is. Still, if you find yourself at a place where you feel this is happening you don't have to ever go back. There are a huge number of alternative places (at least around my area) where I don't get this feeling.

Happy Dancing.

Daniel Sandars
10th-February-2005, 06:00 PM
I favour a venue charging their full economic costs upfront.

There are many venues where you get tied into their bar and or their caterers and that quite franckly is 'uncompetitive' and thus a racket.

However, if unprofitable venues want to charge for an essential services such as tap water then they should consider charging for access to the toilets.

Another dodge they might try is to keep the condom machine in the lady's empty. Mostly women buy them and few would complain in public about being ripped off. There is a pub somewhere or other that has taken a fortune, over the years, from the empty condom machine in its lady's toilet.

D

bobgadjet
10th-February-2005, 06:39 PM
I suppose one could sneek off to the toilet and fill up the "secreted bottle" but there is always the problem..........the seat might fall on your head!.......
:rofl:
:rofl:

:worthy:

bobgadjet
10th-February-2005, 07:00 PM
I understand that it is all a matter of how peoples minds work. We are all charged, say £4.99, for an item. We all know it really costs £5 but somehow our attention stops when we see the £4 bit of the price so it really doesn't cost as much as we think. When we get the 1p change we feel good that we sort of got a present back as well. Well it doesn't work on me - I see through it and see that someone else is making assumptions about how my mind works and use it to their advantage. I resent that.


Have to pull you up on this one.............
One of the MAIN reasons the larger premises charge a value not to a round pound figure is that the staff HAVE to use the till to get the required 1p-5p change, so the sale is registered thereby stopping the staff pocketing the note.

It's not necessarily to put you in a frame of mind that you are getting some sort of discount or bargain.

On the cost of the "soft" drink, be it tap or bottled water or cordial, when the venue charges high prices for low cost items, I purchase an economical alcoholic drink. It's my way of getting a drink, but not letting the venue rip me off.
I find that I can take at least 3 x half largers and my dance is unaffected.
I only buy half lagers as the pints tend to get too warm while Im dancing.

They make a lot less profit from my purchase.
I get a beverage that satisfies my thirst.
I don't upset the venue.
I justify being served at the bar.
All in all I think it's the best way out.

Ashtons staff WILL evict you if you blatently bring in your own drink and refuse to hand it in. I think they ahve a right to do that.

If you are unhappy about the £1 for tap water, spend your £1 on another drink that you feel you are not being ripped off for.

It's your choice really.
I have looked long and hard for halls for a good number of years, and you would be hard pressed to find a venue of that quality providing you with the entertainment you get for the price you pay.

PLEASE SUPPORT IT, otherwise it will be yet another brilliant dancefloor being turned into flats or other type of building.

bigdjiver
10th-February-2005, 08:13 PM
... PLEASE SUPPORT IT, otherwise it will be yet another brilliant dancefloor being turned into flats or other type of building. If dancers will not pay enough to dance, that will happen. There is something wrong when people are travelling 100 miles to dance at a venue, but will not pay more than £10 to do so.

stewart38
11th-February-2005, 12:20 PM
I use to bring a mate to ceroc who just wanted to go to the bar and get ****ed.

Wouldnt this help, we all bring a non aggressive drunk who can sit and get ****ed . Bar profits up and you may get free water

Chef
11th-February-2005, 01:22 PM
Have to pull you up on this one.............
One of the MAIN reasons the larger premises charge a value not to a round pound figure is that the staff HAVE to use the till to get the required 1p-5p change, so the sale is registered thereby stopping the staff pocketing the note.

It's not necessarily to put you in a frame of mind that you are getting some sort of discount or bargain.
OK. I stand pulled up. My partners youngest daughter has just finished her degree in psychology at Durham University and she was the one that told me about this aspect of retail psychology. Your explanation above might make sense if it was for low value cash items but I can't see it's application for items in stores for £69.99, £99.99, £149.99 where the transaction is by cheque or credit card. The most bizzare pricing I ever saw was about 20 years ago for a Ferrari, price £27000.45. You would think they would round it down to £27K.


They make a lot less profit from my purchase.
I get a beverage that satisfies my thirst.
I don't upset the venue.
I justify being served at the bar.
All in all I think it's the best way out.

I don't drink tap water myself as I prefer blackcurrant and soda but I still think that huge profit margins for tap water (more so than any other drink) are unreasonable. The reasons that you give above also strike a chord with me.


Ashtons staff WILL evict you if you blatently bring in your own drink and refuse to hand it in. I think they ahve a right to do that..

Provided you know the deal before you go in. They make the rules and if you choose to go in then you accept those rules. They then have the right to throw you out. You always have the right to not go. There must be something really special about Ashtons that keeps it full so I must come along sometime and see for myself. I had gotten the impression that Ashtons was quite close to Hipsters, Jango and others, and couldn't see why one would go to any other venue with these places in the vicinity.


If you are unhappy about the £1 for tap water, spend your £1 on another drink that you feel you are not being ripped off for.

My local venue suddenly stopped charging me £1.20 for my favorite dance drink and started charging 70p. I asked last night what had prompted the change. They said they had reviewed their pricing structure and decided that the profit margin most soft drinks was "unjustifiable". :clap: :clap: Strangely, the entrance price has not had to go up.


It's your choice really.
I have looked long and hard for halls for a good number of years, and you would be hard pressed to find a venue of that quality providing you with the entertainment you get for the price you pay.

PLEASE SUPPORT IT, otherwise it will be yet another brilliant dancefloor being turned into flats or other type of building.

It would appear that this is bit of a London disease. When you can take a small patch of land and put 4 flats on it an sell them for £250K then places like dance halls will be under constant threat. I do see your difficulty and agree that places need to be supported. The best way to do that is to pay an honest price for the services that you consume. Make all of your service provision transparent and justifiable. People do appreciate honesty.

Happy dancing

Gadget
11th-February-2005, 01:40 PM
I don't know how all you sotherners can actually drink tap water? I can see the argument for up here, but I would rather buy horrendusly over priced bottled water than drink tap water in London.

(the only place where I have come out of a shower feeling more grotty than when I went in :()

Bigger Andy
11th-February-2005, 01:47 PM
:cheers:
Had some tap water at Maidstone last night.
Only because they had run out of mineral water.
Got ice with it as well !
It cost me 5p !!!
That seems very reasonable.
:cheers:

Clive Long
11th-February-2005, 01:48 PM
I don't know how all you sotherners can actually drink tap water? I can see the argument for up here, but I would rather buy horrendusly over priced bottled water than drink tap water in London.


I thought the wondrous soft water in Scotland is the cause of your high coronary disease rate.

Personally, I think it's the deep fried fried Mars bars.

CRL

Lory
11th-February-2005, 01:49 PM
I don't know how all you sotherners can actually drink tap water? I can see the argument for up here, but I would rather buy horrendusly over priced bottled water than drink tap water in London.


:yeah: I don't even drink tap water at home, OR make a cuppa with it, the water comes out of the tap smelling and tasting like a swimming pool! :sick:

El Salsero Gringo
11th-February-2005, 01:57 PM
I think London tap-water makes the best tea - although scraping the scum off the top (if you're being picky) is a pain. I've never noticed a chlorine smell (chlorine levels are miniscule anyway) and It also tastes better than most mineral waters, to my palate.

Kent Club, in Hammersmith, last night: 25p for a half-pint of carbonated tap-water and lime. Very reasonable.

under par
13th-February-2005, 01:34 AM
:cheers:
Had some tap water at Maidstone last night.
Only because they had run out of mineral water.
Got ice with it as well !
It cost me 5p !!!
That seems very reasonable.
:cheers:






Its a bit of a drive to Maidstone but from Sussex but hey! you don't get ripped off! :whistle:

under par
13th-February-2005, 01:36 AM
:yeah: the water comes out of the tap smelling and tasting like a swimming pool! :sick:

Wot like P***?


strange taps! :what: :what:

Clive Long
13th-February-2005, 02:17 AM
Pint of weak orange squash at Ceroc Metro, Nortel, 30p rising to 50p through the night. Inflation or what? Dedicated bar, 4 (or was it 5?) bar staff. Apart from the dim lighting, this is almost a perfect venue methinks.

I know, I know I am supposed to be wrapped up warm in bed nursing a cold but got to support the locals.

Great night actually - well done to the people who organised it :worthy: - even though it took 30 minutes to find the venue.

Clive

MartinHarper
13th-February-2005, 04:59 PM
One of the MAIN reasons the larger premises charge a value not to a round pound figure is that the staff HAVE to use the till to get the required 1p-5p change, so the sale is registered thereby stopping the staff pocketing the note.

It's not necessarily to put you in a frame of mind that you are getting some sort of discount or bargain.

I'd not heard that explanation, but it checks out elsewhere (eg
Wikipedia:psychological price (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_price)). I'm not convinced it's the main reason today, but interesting nonetheless. Thanks for the pointer.


I find that I can take at least 3 x half largers and my dance is unaffected.

I have to say I'm a little skeptical. However, that's perhaps a topic for another thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4249)

bigdjiver
13th-February-2005, 05:53 PM
Luton served pints of tap water, in a glass, with ice, free :clap:

under par
13th-February-2005, 06:02 PM
Luton served pints of tap water, in a glass, with ice, free :clap:

Well done Luton. :clap: :clap:

Spread the word more free water :yeah:

FRED WEDKNOT
13th-February-2005, 10:36 PM
This subject was once discussed in parliament.It followed a series of deaths at music/dance events in the uk.After 3 young people died at a club in Ayr a fatal accident inquiry took place and although drug misuse had taken place the causes of death were linked to heat exhaustion and dehydration.
A unopposed bill then went through parliament with new licensing regulations.
A link to the Lords Hansard text can be viewed here

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199596/ldhansrd/vo960603/text/60603-04.htm
Water is mentioned in columns 1094,1096,1100.

DavidY
13th-February-2005, 10:52 PM
A link to the Lords Hansard text can be viewed here
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199596/ldhansrd/vo960603/text/60603-04.htmI followed the link - I haven't found the bit about water yet but what caught my eye were the following definitions:

Dancing:
"any movement apparently to the accompaniment of music"

Which leads on to the definition of music as including:
"sounds wholly or predominantly characterised by the emission of a succession of repetitive beats"
:rofl:

Lory
13th-February-2005, 11:07 PM
Which leads on to the definition of music as including:
"sounds wholly or predominantly characterised by the emission of a succession of repetitive beats"
:rofl:
Do you think he'd just listened to 'call on me'? :D :rofl:

Clive Long
14th-February-2005, 12:46 AM
<< snip >>
Dancing:
"any movement apparently to the accompaniment of music"
<< snip >>


Yep. Know all about that. I'm a dancer !

under par
14th-February-2005, 09:05 AM
Do you think he'd just listened to 'call on me'? :D :rofl:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :yeah:

LMC
16th-July-2005, 01:56 PM
Hmmm, just got pointed to this from here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5821&page=4) (thanks ESG).

I maybe get through 3 or 4 pints of water a night. IMO, the quantity of sugar and acid in the equivalent quantity of fruit juice is not healthy (certainly has an adverse effect on my digestion :eek: ). The equivalent quantity of anything fizzy is also not conducive to a comfortable night ( :rofl: ). I hardly ever drink alcohol (and never when I'm dancing). So I'm left with water or water and a shot of cordial.

As I said on the thread above, I have NO problem with paying a "cover charge" for tap water as I appreciate that the bar has to wash the glasses, pay its staff, etc. Maybe up to 50p if you're adding a shot of cordial as well. But a quid seems excessive - even if you can make your drink a bit more than a pint by swigging a couple of mouthfuls and topping the glass off with ice ;). I don't know about anyone else, but I probably drank less because I felt I was being ripped off - and that's not healthy when it's that hot and you're exercising. Let's face it, London tap water is nasty - being ripped off for it just causes resentment.

If the water was filtered,chilled and "ice and a slice" added, then a quid would be *fine*. But at Ashtons, the mineral water is £1.20 for 330 ml (which I think is just under half a pint). That's even more of a rip off.

I thought this was a good idea:

what about paying £1 at the door for a handstamp / paper wristband / token / x for "free" water the rest of the night?

I'd be happy to pay up to a fiver extra at the door to save taking my purse up to the bar and unlimited water all night - depending on the quality of the venue (Ashtons £5, no problem, school hall probably £2 max).

Alternatively, if jugs of water can be supplied on tables and topped up regularly (either by staff or a tap made available to DIY) to save queuing at the bar for it, I would be happy to pay extra at the door for that too.

Lucy Locket
16th-July-2005, 02:06 PM
Leicester we pay 20p (yes 20p) for the first pint of water refills are FREE
I kid you not, it's true, honest.

Daventry is 30p per pint of water, used to be free.
Kettering tea dance water is free. Jugs are laid out you help yourself.

I think up to 50p is acceptable above that it's a rip off!!!!

In restaurants i'll have a glass/bottle of wine (not all to myself, no) & always ask for a jug of tap water - FREE

I do take a bottle of water if i know water's going to be expensive. We've paid for it already via our water rates anyway & what are the water authorities doing, NOT repairing water leaks!!

Don't mind paying for water but £1 is OTT unless refills are free then i'm happy. IMHO

Lynn
16th-July-2005, 02:28 PM
In restaurants i'll have a glass/bottle of wine (not all to myself, no) & always ask for a jug of tap water - FREE I often ask for a jug/glass of water in restaurants. In good hotels I've noticed if you don't order a drink they will bring you a jug with ice and lemon without asking.

One local restaurant went a bit 'up market' with new decor and menu - and a new policy on table water - they now refuse to serve it. I don't mind paying more for a better menu, but I was rather shocked at the 'no table water' policy and haven't eaten there since. Other people have said the same, I'm not sure they realise how many regular customers they have lost because of it.

LMC
16th-July-2005, 02:57 PM
Hmmm, it's different in restaurants though. Say you spend £25 on meal and wine (probably more if you're in central London or somewhere really posh!) then the "additional cost" of supplying you with a free jug or glass of water is negligible.

Whereas I think the points that people have made here are absolutely valid - i.e. that venues often "lose out" on the bar on an MJ night because we are not, in general, great alcohol drinkers. So on that basis, the *principle* of charging for tap water seems fair. I just object to being ripped off at a quid a time.

If venues used Chicklet's stamp/wristband idea (and also only allowed people to get one glass of water at a time thereby negating the "one person pays and four people don't but they all get free water" problem) then I can't see that they would lose by it.

I've just spotted the psychological flaw in my argument that I'd be happy to pay an extra fiver at Ashtons for "free water for the rest of the night". I definitely spent less than a fiver on tap water last night (although more than that if I include other drinks throughout the evening). But I think it works on the same principle as the "all you can eat for...." that some restaurants do: some people take advantage, but most don't - you can only (eat) drink so much after all! - and the 'security' of knowing that you have paid would add to goodwill.

Also, looking at it another way: because I had to pay a quid a throw for tap water, I didn't drink anything else in the later part of the evening (yep, I'm in the stingy camp - I wanna go dancing often which means I have to watch what I'm spending each time!). If the tap water had been free or even cheaper then I would probably have had an extra J2O (or similar) at probably nearly £3 and they would actually have "taken" more off me during the course of the night.

Is my "behaviour" on this unusual (wouldn't surprise me :rofl: ) or do these seem like reasonable solutions to people?

stewart38
16th-July-2005, 03:31 PM
Whereas I think the points that people have made here are absolutely valid - i.e. that venues often "lose out" on the bar on an MJ night because we are not, in general, great alcohol drinkers. So on that basis, the *principle* of charging for tap water seems fair. I just object to being ripped off at a quid a time.



I think at that price they probably just break even

God where else could you dance and drink the nite way for £10-£13 :whistle:

LMC
16th-July-2005, 03:35 PM
I think at that price they probably just break even

God where else could you dance and drink the nite way for £10-£13 :whistle:

Fair comment, but I'd be interested to know whether they charge for tap water on non-MJ nights and how much?

stewart38
16th-July-2005, 03:40 PM
Fair comment, but I'd be interested to know whether they charge for tap water on non-MJ nights and how much?


Maybe not ? but maybe non MJ buy drink :whistle:

sorry i missed you birthday dance

LMC
16th-July-2005, 03:49 PM
Maybe not ? but maybe non MJ buy drink :whistle:
:yeah:
I'd pay £1.50 for a pint of tap water IF it was filtered and chilled. It's the fact that it's warm and horrible and nowhere else charges so much which makes it feel like a rip off. Given that Ashtons is a better venue than most, I was actually quite surprised to find it was still only £7 last night, I'd have gone to £10. Each to their own I suppose <shrug>


sorry i missed you birthday dance
The fewer people who saw it the better :blush:

Ballroom queen
16th-July-2005, 05:54 PM
I write in Ashtons defence again.

Ashton's pays a huge amount in Council tax, infact the reason the other 2 dance floors were knocked down was because the venue literally could not survive. The council tax was then £120 000 per year not to mention all the other expenses. I did at one time have all of the figures. The owner said I could keep the hall from being knocked down if I paid him £5000 per week!! (this is all true as I tried everything to save the building, even went to The Prime Minister, but to no avail)

The venue were offered a massive amount for the land and reluctantly (as the building has been in the family a long time) had to sell, but on the proviso they could keep the building they have now.

The rates and bills on our new building are still phenomenal, but I'm willing to do all I can to keep the building. The fact of the matter is however that as the dancers tend not to spend any money over the bar, the venue makes very little and I can't afford the amount they want in rent on a Fri night (especially when they put on 2 bar staff & a person on the door so that we never have any trouble) so I have to agree to certain concessions and 2 of these are that people can not bring in their own drink and that £1 will be charged for water. Hence the reason I, not the venue, will evict people that bring their own water and I feel very strongly about all of this. I have never taken a drink to a venue and would never contemplate doing so.

The moral of the story is if you want this dance floor to survive then you have to buy a drink. It's not an expensive night out £7 on a Friday for 6 hrs of dancing. Even if you bought 3 pints of water it would still be a cheap night out in my book!

I agree with whoever else quoted Lindyloo, didn't any of you read what was written??? You pay for water in your own home by way of water rates or a meter. It is not free. At ashtons you pay for bar staff to serve you, and a clean glass, as well as some one to clear it up and wash it. Please don't expect the rest of us who don't drink water to subsidise you by charging extra on the door. Some of us like / need the calories of orange juice + lemonade to keep us going, and some of us never drink london tap water coz its foul. For those of you out of london, you probably pay less for water coz the venues are cheaper, Ashtons is a bloody expensive hall to hire, but its a fab dance floor and has atmosphere - that's why we all go. Dancing is a cheap night, if gyms etc provide free water you are paying for it in crazy membership fees, we pay a one off fee to join ceroc - I paid a pound all those years ago!

So, although in principal it sounds harsh paying for water it is a necessary evil. As for people dehydrating while dancing and then dying, I suggest that drugs were also involved, an evil that does not seem linked with the MJ dance scene, thank goodness.

El Salsero Gringo
16th-July-2005, 06:13 PM
At ashtons you pay for bar staff to serve you, and a clean glass, as well as some one to clear it up and wash it. Please don't expect the rest of us who don't drink water to subsidise you by charging extra on the door.On the contrary. We who drink water only and would be happy to bring our own, are subisidising *you* by paying extra for a bar that we neither need or want. If the venue needs to charge extortionate prices for tapwater to pay its staff then we who are forced to pay it are artificially keeping down the cost of *your* entry.

It may well be a necessary economic evil for Ashtons to raise extra money somehow. But we're allowed to disagree on how they do it.

Lynn
16th-July-2005, 06:13 PM
Hmmm, it's different in restaurants though. Say you spend £25 on meal and wine (probably more if you're in central London or somewhere really posh!) then the "additional cost" of supplying you with a free jug or glass of water is negligible. Yes I agree about restaurants - that was why it annoyed me. Venues are different and they do need to in some way cover costs. Eg a local salsa organiser advises his dancers that a certain venue where he runs parties aren't happy with dancers asking for free water, so could people please buy drinks. As he runs the evenings with free entry, people don't mind.

But I would get annoyed if someone stopped me from carrying water in with me. I take water everywhere with me, not just dancing. Only a small bottle and it doesn't mean I won't buy a soft drink during the evening. Not being allowed to take it somewhere with me wouldn't stop me attending occasionally, but it would put me off being a regular customer.

JoC
16th-July-2005, 06:35 PM
Even with £1 a pint, MJ is still a very cheap night out - less than £10 for a whole evening of great dancing and great music (except Tuesdays in certain locations :whistle: ).
Does depend on how much you usually drink though, I often easily get through several pints in one nights dancing. Thankfully nearly all the venues I've been to have free water. :clap:

The other point about water is, as opposed to other drinks, when you're dancing you actually need it, you don't tend to drink it purely because you want it. That's why it's difficult to argue charging (for tap water).

LMC
16th-July-2005, 06:58 PM
I agree with whoever else quoted Lindyloo, didn't any of you read what was written???
Yes, all of it in fact. Did you? since you seem to have gone off on one here on the assumption that we are all demanding free water. Which is not the case.

You pay for water in your own home by way of water rates or a meter. It is not free. At ashtons you pay for bar staff to serve you, and a clean glass, as well as some one to clear it up and wash it.
Which is why most of the people who have posted here have no objection in principle to paying a nominal amount for water.

Please don't expect the rest of us who don't drink water to subsidise you by charging extra on the door. Some of us like / need the calories of orange juice + lemonade to keep us going, and some of us never drink london tap water coz its foul.
Which was why I thought Chicklet's idea of paying extra for a stamp or bracelet for "water included" was so good - i.e. it would be down to individual choice.

For those of you out of london, you probably pay less for water coz the venues are cheaper, Ashtons is a bloody expensive hall to hire, but its a fab dance floor and has atmosphere - that's why we all go. Dancing is a cheap night, if gyms etc provide free water you are paying for it in crazy membership fees, we pay a one off fee to join ceroc - I paid a pound all those years ago.
Agreed


So, although in principal it sounds harsh paying for water it is a necessary evil. As for people dehydrating while dancing and then dying, I suggest that drugs were also involved, an evil that does not seem linked with the MJ dance scene, thank goodness.
Agreed.

The point at issue here is that a quid is WAY over the odds for unadulterated tap water.

Lynn
16th-July-2005, 07:15 PM
Which is why most of the people who have posted here have no objection in principle to paying a nominal amount for water. :yeah: Esp if its chilled.

I still think if possible, you should provide it to the dancers. I ran a workshop once in a dance studio - they didn't want jugs/cups of water brought in - I asked if individuals bottles was OK - they agreed, so I bought bottled water wholesale and provided it free to the dancers. It cost me only a bit extra and the dancers appreciated it - and they could refill in the kitchen. (To be fair, I wasn't aiming to make a profit on the event, just cover costs.)

David Bailey
16th-July-2005, 09:51 PM
Cheshunt last night - free water jugs at the bar, with lots of nice glasses.

Also, free sweets on tables (including mints! :clap: ), and airconditioned.

Demand more for your money.


Whereas I think the points that people have made here are absolutely valid - i.e. that venues often "lose out" on the bar on an MJ night because we are not, in general, great alcohol drinkers.
I'm so (and still) unconvinced by this, simply because the profit margins on soft drinks are so ridiculously high.

I remember having this debate a couple of months back, can't remember the details though. Although obviously I won the argument, being right and all.

Ballroom queen
17th-July-2005, 11:19 AM
............ by paying extra for a bar that we neither need or want.........

we may not need / want / or like it, but it is part of the license of ashtons that the bar is open - as Linda explained to me, they have to pay for the licensee to be on site so the bar might as well be open - costs the same.

El Salsero Gringo
17th-July-2005, 11:35 AM
we may not need / want / or like it, but it is part of the license of ashtons that the bar is open - as Linda explained to me, they have to pay for the licensee to be on site so the bar might as well be open - costs the same.Ashtons can hire out the hall and keep the bar shut. Just like they do for afternoon workshops. (I've never heard of a Justice's licence that *requires* the bar to be open for the sale of alcohol, come what may.) Then the licensee doesn't need to be on site, and they don't need any bar staff. I'm not saying that I'd like that to happen, but it's an option.

David Bailey
17th-July-2005, 11:49 AM
(I've never heard of a Justice's licence that *requires* the bar to be open for the sale of alcohol, come what may.)
I'd imagine it's part of the commercial terms required by Ashtons management, rather than a legal requirement to force alcohol down people's throats, which I agree would be a little weird (not impossible, just weird).

However, effectively, it doesn't matter, as this is a "constraint of Ashtons hire for an evening", it's still pretty much beyond Ceroc's control, and people just have to live with it as one of those things. This attitude at Ashtons has been around for at least 10 years, I doubt it's going to change any time soon.

There may well still be a way to improve this problem, but I suspect it'll require some creativity and effort to do so, given this constraint. Paying Astons more money would probably help their attitude... :)

Ballroom queen
17th-July-2005, 12:23 PM
Ashtons can hire out the hall and keep the bar shut. Just like they do for afternoon workshops. (I've never heard of a Justice's licence that *requires* the bar to be open for the sale of alcohol, come what may.) Then the licensee doesn't need to be on site, and they don't need any bar staff. I'm not saying that I'd like that to happen, but it's an option.

Speak to Linda - they have discussed the option of not having a bar at certain events at Ashtons, but as the license requires a licensee on site therefore they (ceroc) have to pay them, therefore they might as well have the bar open.

Martin
17th-July-2005, 12:41 PM
All bars have an overhead, the overhead, is that you are there drinking, sitting and enjoying. So you will not get the same drinks at off licence, or bottle shop prices. That means you get charged for service and venue.

Means you have to pay. A fact of life... :cheers:

El Salsero Gringo
17th-July-2005, 01:14 PM
Speak to Linda - they have discussed the option of not having a bar at certain events at Ashtons, but as the license requires a licensee on site therefore they (ceroc) have to pay them, therefore they might as well have the bar open.No, no, this is still all a nonsense. If the bar has to be open anyway, then it's a fixed cost of the venue and inflated bar prices are simply subsidising the door money. The licensee is (presumably) the venue manager who's going to be on site anyway on a Saturday night and I've never ever seen him working behind the bar.

All the arguments about service and paying for clean glasses are false because the markup on soft drinks (including water) is so much higher than the markup on alcohol. Yet it takes more time and effort to serve a pint of beer than to turn on a tap.

Either way, we're being had.

Robin
18th-July-2005, 01:36 PM
In my own experience the fact that the bar is open serves a couple of purposes.

1. Some people need to buy drinks - caveat: do you need a licensee if you only sell soft drinks ? (Personally I've found that alcohol and dancing is a bit of a mixed bag - some can some can't - but I'd rather not dance with someone who has and can't !)

2. Venue hire charges are sometimes based on bar takings - ie Cheshunt provide a bar as part of the venue hire - they do not have a minimum bar taking levels so its always there; other venues sometimes require a guaranteed minimum bar spend for an agreed booking rate - if you don't hit the spend regularly then they'll look to increase the venue hire charge.