Muggle's first MJ night

[Feelingpink]

Someone new arrived at Hipsters this week. We talked about MJ, the lead's role (talking through what was happening with some of the couples in front of us) and had a small dance (of sorts). Later, I noticed that he had been taken on one side for a private lesson by a couple of friends.

It made me wonder whether it might be more useful for a newbie to learn the principles of leading and follow and spend a bit of time watching or to learn some set moves first before this happens (so he has some idea of why and how). Or perhaps it just depends on the person?

[Gus]

It made me wonder whether it might be more useful for a newbie to learn the principles of leading and follow and spend a bit of time watching or to learn some set moves first before this happens (so he has some idea of why and how). Or perhaps it just depends on the person?Unless the people giving the instruction about lead and follow and how to do MJ REALLY know what they are talking about (from a teaching not dancing perspective) I would invariably say DO THE BEGINERS LESSON ... thats what they are there for. TO be brutaly frank, MOST of the people who I've seen giving these well-meant private lessons miss out fundamental principles or teach bad ones. I've seen enough taxi dancers that teach badly never mind Jo Public. I think its best, usualy, for muggles to learn from the teachers who are trained to teach ... is that a fair point or am I being a it harsh?

[ChrisA]

Someone new arrived at Hipsters this week. We talked about MJ, the lead's role (talking through what was happening with some of the couples in front of us) and had a small dance (of sorts). Later, I noticed that he had been taken on one side for a private lesson by a couple of friends.

It made me wonder whether it might be more useful for a newbie to learn the principles of leading and follow and spend a bit of time watching or to learn some set moves first before this happens (so he has some idea of why and how). Or perhaps it just depends on the person?
I think this depends on whether the newbie is a guy or a girl.

90% of my experience with newbies is with girls, so I'll restrict most of my comments to that...

Learning moves, often with another recent beginner, is a disaster, IMHO, for a newbie follower. She'll be picking up the moves in the class, typically faster than the guys will, and consequently will be learning to lead, not follow.

But then, of course, in freestyle, it's even more of a disaster. She's dancing with guys that can't lead, and she can't follow either. So the whole thing is a case of the blind leading the blind. Fortunately, and against all the odds, there are lots of laughs and most people aren't put off too badly.

Over a few weeks, and especially if she's quite good-looking, she'll get some dances with some more experienced guys, and the initial chaos will start to be ironed out.

The bad news is, that quite a few of the guys that ask her to dance cos they fancy her, will be the 'show off their cool stuff with no regard for the lady' type of guy, so they'll wind her in knots, yank her about, and thereby the seeds of poor following and ladies that yank back are sown. :tears:

Over the last few years, I've evolved a pretty simple set of stuff that I do with almost all new followers, which teaches some elementary connection that about 70% of them can get within about a track.

It starts with some in and outs (not with the :sick: double semicircles) but just getting them to step back and forwards, and after a few repetitions with a little resistance on the step in. Once they've got that, a little tension at the end of the step out is usually accessible.

Then it's a travelling return ('step, step, back'), then, after some more reps, a return on the spot.

Once they have that the ground work is laid. Right handed leads, emphasising that they're not doing anything different, the complexity can be built up quite quickly in most cases.

I often have to stop them making life hard for themselves with lots of extra steps that get their weight in the wrong place, but mostly they end up with a big beaming smile because of what they can do that they wouldn't have believed at the beginning.

Then they go and dance with some more beginners and intermediate knot-winders who undo a lot of my good work :waycool: :tears:

But hey-ho. They still have a lot of fun so mostly they come back :cheers:

Chris

[Feelingpink]

I don't think I explained my question very well. My question was really about what it is best to first learn set moves or the (lead and follow) theory behind them. It wasn't a question of who is teaching. I know that in practice, most people pop along to a dance night and have a lesson where they learn a number of moves ... but this is wondering whether (in theory) there might be better way.

[ChrisA]

but this is wondering whether (in theory) there might be better way.
Well, as I've said before, I think the optimum way of getting newbies to learn would be to put newbie followers with good leads, so that they really learned how to follow (and don't bother teaching the girls moves at all)...

... and newbie guys with experienced followers, who could nip in the bud any yanking (by telling them) or failure to lead (by not doing anything).

But I'm not at all sure how practical it would be to organise this. It would go right against the whole Ceroc 'just turn up you don't need a partner' philosophy, since there would be a whole lot more organisation needed, to ensure that the experienced people available to dance with the beginners were the right ones.

It won't happen, IMHO :flower:

Chris

[Feelingpink]

Well, as I've said before, I think the optimum way of getting newbies to learn would be to put newbie followers with good leads, so that they really learned how to follow (and don't bother teaching the girls moves at all)...

... and newbie guys with experienced followers, who could nip in the bud any yanking (by telling them) or failure to lead (by not doing anything).

But I'm not at all sure how practical it would be to organise this. It would go right against the whole Ceroc 'just turn up you don't need a partner' philosophy, since there would be a whole lot more organisation needed, to ensure that the experienced people available to dance with the beginners were the right ones.

It won't happen, IMHO :flower:

Chris

I wasn't trying to find a better practical way (that would be a WHOLE other thread) ... just curious as to what people think would be the best way.

Ta :flower:

[ChrisA]

I wasn't trying to find a better practical way (that would be a WHOLE other thread) ... just curious as to what people think would be the best way.

Ta :flower:
Practical and better.... :really:

Good luck :flower:

[Andy McGregor]

Muggles at Hipsters :confused:

I don't think there's a beginners lesson at Hipsters any more. I'm sure there's enough good dancers and teachers at Hipsters to help anyone but there really isn't a beginners lesson and hasn't been one since Viktor stopped teaching there.

Having said all that, I think that Hipsters could probably take the odd beginner and make good dancers of them. If you find any Muggles at Hipsters I think you should point them in Nigel's direction. He could either teach them himself of point the in the direction of someone who can help.

So, the answer to the question of which is best, individual tuition or doing the beginners lesson is simple in this case - there isn't a beginners lesson.

[under par]

Muggles at Hipsters :confused:

I don't think there's a beginners lesson at Hipsters any more.

So, the answer to the question of which is best, individual tuition or doing the beginners lesson is simple in this case - there isn't a beginners lesson.

I agree there..... read on....

I spoke to a man from the Thames Valley area on Tuesday at Ealing as Roger Chin was finishing the first lesson in the main hall.

He had been involved in the lesson but stepped out before it finished.(some what in awe!)

He was asking what level the lesson was set for?

He had joined what he thought was a beginners class and his main point was it was a far more technical class than he had ever been to and the standard was way above the lessons he had previously been at.

I cannot recall which town he said he danced usually but he was mightily impressed with the standard of teaching.

[bigdjiver]

I also find that many of the the first time ladies try too hard to learn the moves in class, and try to anticipate and even lead them. Most Taxi dancers just take them through the routine. I try to ask them to dance on their first night to demolish any idea "They're all so good that they will not want to dance with me." or "I cannot remember the routine, I cannot do this". I usually have no problem taking a first timer lady through more than half of the beginner moves, and I tell her that she has done that. If she has some particular problem I try to explain, or at least hint at it, and encourage her to seek out a Taxi Dancer, or, rarely necessary, encourage a Taxi dancer to help her.

[Graham]

I think it's different for leaders and followers. For followers, I'm completely in agreement with ChrisA - teaching them moves is not the most important thing, and many really have trouble grasping the fact that they're supposed to be following. Even when I'm giving individual instruction to them as a taxi it's sometimes hard to make this sink in, and unfortunately teaching them moves simply reinforces their mistaken belief that they need to know the patterns.

However, for most men, I think you have to combine teaching them leading with some basic moves, as they need to get used to the multi-tasking of moving themselves and leading their partner.

I think the Ceroc formula works in terms of getting people started - where I think it could be better is once they progress past the beginner classes - there isn't really much emphasis on lead/follow technique in the intermediate class, even though a lot of people will not really have a good understanding of this, and there isn't the same degree of individual help available that the beginners get from the taxis.

[Gus]

I think the Ceroc formula works in terms of getting people started - where I think it could be better is once they progress past the beginner classes - there isn't really much emphasis on lead/follow technique in the intermediate class, even though a lot of people will not really have a good understanding of this, and there isn't the same degree of individual help available that the beginners get from the taxis.I think it comes back to economics ... try to teach punters "how to dance" and you will be left with a pretty empty calss. Teach punters 'advanced' moves and drops that they cant do correctly and they love you and come back for more :sick: This is based to an extent on experiences from our region. Cool Catz is hoping to break this trend but I would bet my house on it. {Can't you tell the Xmas spirit has passed and usual cynical service has resumed :wink:}

[ChrisA]

However, for most men, I think you have to combine teaching them leading with some basic moves, as they need to get used to the multi-tasking of moving themselves and leading their partner.

Agreed.

I think the format of the beginners class would be Ok for guys if it wasn't for the fact that the girls learn the moves quicker than the guys, typically, and then lead them, rather than doing nothing when the guy falters - which is completely understandable, of course, since they've gone there to learn to dance and can't possibly realise that by leading the guys they're storing up trouble for themselves later.

(But it is funny, how some of the beginner girls get the leading thing so ingrained so quickly that even quite new beginners will try and lead me.)

Once the guys have done a few classes, the format of the improvers class seems to be quite helpful, cos it helps them learn how to link moves together other than just the routine that was taught in the beginners class.

Chris

[ChrisA]

{Can't you tell the Xmas spirit has passed and usual cynical service has resumed :wink:}
Phew.

What a relief :D

You haven't started yelling at me yet, though, so you can't really claim to be back to normal :devil:

[Gadget]

:D Sorry Chris - but how boring... teaching by repetition rather than practical application; OK, you are acting as a Taxi - and they (& teachers) are expected to dispense wisdom, but how many people actually absorb even half of what is being put to them?

I can give my opinion on dancing with beginner ladies; they see people dance and have fun, they want to dance and have fun. In order to do this, the teachers and taxis say "do this, do that,..."[i] they learn a lesson saying [i]"this move goes from here..to here... to here. This move follows this move....". What I try to do is free them from all this and just dance with them. If I ever give advice, it's normally "relax and listen to the music" or "just go where you feel moved to". I hope that I am teaching them by having them learn by their own actions - I smile and encourage if they follow well, putting in a more challenging move. I hope that they 'feel' when things go right and learn from their own initiative. Dancing with beginners I try to be more of a 'guide' rather than a 'teacher'.

A beginner learning verbally (or even practically through drills) the principles of lead and follow is a poor substitue for the experiance of leading and following - IMHO a waste of time at this level. A few weeks in; yes - once they are bitten and it dawns on them that there is more than simply being moved by the man (or just moving the lady) - that it's a partnership and the lead is the communication that allows the partnership to work.

[Andy McGregor]

:D Sorry Chris - but how boring... teaching by repetition rather than practical application; OK, you are acting as a Taxi - and they (& teachers) are expected to dispense wisdom, but how many people actually absorb even half of what is being put to them?

I can't find where Chris has said this.

I think we learn and improve by repetition. That's how we improve our muscle memory. The biggest problem with the way MJ is taught is that people get little or no personal feed back on doing the moves and movements correctly. And that's what I think is at the bottom of all the bad habits I see in much of MJ. People don't do the move correctly, they practice and practice an incorrect way of doing it until it becomes ingrained - and then, worst of all, they tell other people how to do a move and pass on their error like a cold-sore :tears:

Of course there is the argument that MJ is a social dance and so long as we're being social it doesn't matter if we get the moves right. To take that path results in injury and frustration. There is a big difference between doing a move like a beginner because you are a beginner and doing a move incorrectly for years - and it is the incorrect execution that I'm talking about - off topic? Guilty as charged :whistle:

But, as Gus says, the commercial formula isn't about teaching people how to dance properly. It's about cramming in a load of beginners and telling them "you've all done really well, give yourself a huge round of applause", so you think you've got it right, even when you haven't :tears:

[Magic Hans]

I can't find where Chris has said this.

I think we learn and improve by repetition. That's how we improve our muscle memory. The biggest problem with the way MJ is taught is that people get little or no personal feed back on doing the moves and movements correctly. And that's what I think is at the bottom of all the bad habits I see in much of MJ. ...
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

However teaching [.... or as I would put it learning] just isn't straight forward. We all learn differently. One learning model talks about:

Theorists :Who learn by analysis
Pragmatists :Who learn by testing out seperate parts
Activists :Who learn by doing
Reflectors : Who learn by reflecting on results

I still say that the only learning is by doing, however, that is my bias talking (at least to some degree).

Ian

[ChrisA]

:D Sorry Chris - but how boring... teaching by repetition rather than practical application; OK, you are acting as a Taxi - and they (& teachers) are expected to dispense wisdom, but how many people actually absorb even half of what is being put to them?

I don't know what you took from my post to come up with this reaction.

However, maybe I wasn't being clear enough.

The list of stuff I go through with a beginner is usually done almost entirely without any words of instruction at all.

To them it's just a dance, with lots of smiles. To me it's that as well, of course, but in addition it's a carefully and sensitively structured lesson, with a balance between repetition and variety, simplicity and increasing complexity - complexity, which, if I get it right, is usually not noticed as such since their ability is increasing almost as fast as I'm increasing the demands on them.

In future, perhaps you'd have the courtesy to at least quote the part of my post which you're levelling accusations at me of being boring.

Chris.

[RogerR]

There's a lot to teaching, and part of it stems from the learner's existing skill base. and there are a lot of ground rules, lead& follow, springy tensioned relaxed grip and arms, and respect.

[Gadget]

I don't know what you took from my post to come up with this reaction.
appologies if you took major offense {and I doubt that 'boring' is an appropriate descriptive term for you :wink:}- the passage that struck me as lacking in excitement for the complete novice was...
Over the last few years, I've evolved a pretty simple set of stuff that I do with almost all new followers, ~
It starts with some in and outs (not with the double semicircles) but just getting them to step back and forwards, and after a few repetitions with a little resistance on the step in. Once they've got that, a little tension at the end of the step out is usually accessible.
Then it's a travelling return ('step, step, back'), then, after some more reps, a return on the spot.
- it's all these "repetitions", and that the wording leads me to imagine doing a untill it's right, then doing b untill it's right, then c... Where does the music come into this? You are just using it as a background rhythm to ingrain some movements. By placing the emphisis at this point on movements rather than dancing, do you not perpetuate the myth that it's all about the moves you know? (Admitedly it's infinetly better than move monsters who drag a beginner up to confuse her with knots, signals and forcing them into a dazed state of submission.)


To them it's just a dance, with lots of smiles. To me it's that as well, of course, but in addition it's a carefully and sensitively structured lesson, with a balance between repetition and variety, simplicity and increasing complexity - complexity, which, if I get it right, is usually not noticed as such since their ability is increasing almost as fast as I'm increasing the demands on them
:worthy: Respect and homage to you for actually thinking about what you are doing and considering your partner - my point is not that it is wrong to do so, but that it may be possable to over-do it and think for your partner rather than letting them work it out.
Most are concerned with "what am I meant to do", and you would answer by showing them. Personally I try to answer by asking them "What are you doing? - that's what you are meant to do."
If they are asking the question, then either I have screwed up {:whistle:} or they are unaware that they are actually dancing and using the skills that will be sharpened as they learn & improve.

I have an advantage over taxis and teachers - they are not looking to actually learn anything from dancing with me, there is no fear of repromand or analysis. I can lead them into any move I think they can follow and change the pattern that moves are taught on to match the music - Taxis and Teachers have to remain constrained by the "right" (taught) way of doing things.


I think we learn and improve by repetition. That's how we improve our muscle memory. The biggest problem with the way MJ is taught is that people get little or no personal feed back on doing the moves and movements correctly. And that's what I think is at the bottom of all the bad habits I see in much of MJ. People don't do the move correctly, they practice and practice an incorrect way of doing it until it becomes ingrained - and then, worst of all, they tell other people how to do a move and pass on their error like a cold-sore
I think that the most common way we are taught is by repetition - I do not hold to the notion that this is soley how we learn and improve. There is no problem with the way MJ is taught - it is taught in a generic form to a large number of people. Those who wish to get more personal feedback and one-on-one tuition seek it out in workshops and weekenders. "Bad habits" and doing moves "incorrectly" only matters if you are concerned about putting in effort to change them. Please do not assume that everyone who goes to a MJ class is there to improve their dancing, or should be forced to if they want to attend.

[Andy McGregor]

There is no problem with the way MJ is taught - it is taught in a generic form to a large number of people.

If there is no problem how come I see so many classes where just about everyone bounces about jerking their partners around and risking injury. This is a sweeping statement by Gadget. There might be no problem with the way MJ is taught where he goes, but the results of some of the teaching I see are positively dangerous - and, far worse, nobody corrects these dancers so they think they're good because they've been dancing for years :tears:

[jockey]

If there is no problem how come I see so many classes where just about everyone bounces about jerking their partners around and risking injury. This is a sweeping statement by Gadget. There might be no problem with the way MJ is taught where he goes, but the results of some of the teaching I see are positively dangerous - and, far worse, nobody corrects these dancers so they think they're good because they've been dancing for years :tears:
Hi Andy : 2 comments - 1} I agree that there are problems with the way ceroc is taught not only because one can see for oneself the results as you put it but also because hardly anybody does the class in the ensuing freestyle and if and when I do (4 the muscle memory) I get big brownie points - that's how rare it evidently is;
2} I am one of the few leads who 'corrects thes dancers' - with very mixed responses :sad: :confused: :mad: :clap: ; one of my big 'bugbears' is 'spaghetti arms (sp?)' ; beginners classes should teach resistence, tension and 'the frame' and, to take up ChrisA's point, should go round the class testing for it one beginner at a time.
P.S. if this happens in ceroc beginners' workshops (or at any level) then that's BRILLYAAAANNNT.. :cheers:

[ChrisA]

leads me to imagine
I thought this was the most appropriate part of your post to quote.

Fortunately the feedback I get from what I actually do seems more relevant to me. :flower:

Chris

[Jive Brummie]

As a teacher, I have to say, if i know of a beginner asking an 'experienced' dancer for help....i tend to cringe :sick: .

Just because i'm a teacher, by no means implies that i know everything. However, what it should hopefully say is that what i say to you will be the same as the next teacher and so on and so forth. IMO, armchair experts are just that. Despite being fantastic dancers, or whatever, if you tell a beginner one thing and then the teacher says something completely different, who does the beginner believe? In effect the teacher has been totally undermined.

I disagree with the idea that 'bouncing' is taught in MJ, as wherever i've been to classes it most certainly is not. And as a Ceroc teacher, it is my own personnal opinion that the moves I teach week in, week out are purely the framework for the participants to build their own style around.

I wouldn't dream of trying to teach complete beginners tension/compression to any depth on a normal class night as it is too much for them to comprehend considering they've just been taught a yoyo into a shoulderdrop etc etc. Gadget is right, beginners should just dance, enjoy and have fun. One of the best tips i gave to a lady in a taxi class once was to ignore everyone around her and look up....hey presto, she was dancing.

I'd suggest that if a beginner asked questions that one is unsure of or your level of experience dictates that you don't have the relevant knowledge, then tell them to attend the beginners class, go to a beginners workshop or ask the teacher. Just a personnal opinion though :wink: .

[ChrisA]

I disagree with the idea that 'bouncing' is taught in MJ, as wherever i've been to classes it most certainly is not.

No one is saying that the bouncing is actually taught. Andy was saying that the bouncing happens, and that it isn't corrected. This is not the same thing at all.



Gadget is right, beginners should just dance, enjoy and have fun.

This is an ideal, a nice one, but that's all. Beginners that can dance from day one will enjoy and have fun, but what about the ones that aren't so fortunate?

The ones that look completely confused throughout the class? The ones that stand paralysed with indecision when confronted with the idea that it doesn't matter which foot to use? The ones that can't hear the beat too well? The ones that fall over when they try to spin?

I'll tell you - they're not enjoying it. They're feeling crushingly embarrassed by what they experience as a complete lack of coordination, and a brain that turns to mush when they try to even remember left from right.

Tell them to dance, enjoy and have fun, sure :rolleyes: . Is it any wonder so few come back? :tears:

My understanding is that you were fortunate to be so good at all this, James, that you were good enough to get to the Blackpool Intermediate final within a few short months of starting, and also to have lots of intensive coaching from someone more experienced, out of the embarrassment of being seen being rubbish in public.
I'm not knocking that - it's great to get a lot of help early on :cheers:

But a lot of people aren't that fortunate. I certainly wasn't. I was so dreadful to begin with that I didn't come back for six months. And then when I did I was still rubbish so I didn't come back for another six months. :sad:

I put it to you that in a large number of cases, it simply is not helpful to say "just dance, have fun", because being awful at something - that you want to be able to do - is not fun at all.

These people you have to teach - if they want you to. Of course, it's important to be able to distinguish the ones that do from the ones that don't, understand when the teaching ceases to be fun, and do something else instead to prevent overload... to get the balance right for each individual who's different from every other one.

Do they teach you how to do that while they're teaching you how to "say ... the same as the next teacher"?

Chris

[Demota]

Find this topic very interesting and the various views on how to motivate and how to teach - all absolutely fundamental to all human skills. Here's my tuppenceworth - a quote from Calvin Coolidge, 30th President of the USA which has helped to make me the dazzling dance-floor sensation I think I am (cheeee!) in spite of a complete lack of natural dancing ability :

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan, 'press on' has solved, and always will solve, the problems of the human race."
Calvin Coolidge

PS when I first started Ceroc I desperately wanted to be able to bounce hands - it looked so cool......

[bigdjiver]

As they say: Never trust a politician.

Persistance pays, but often persistance with wrong policies creates the problems of the human race.

I prefer "Work smart".

[Jive Brummie]

No one is saying that the bouncing is actually taught. Andy was saying that the bouncing happens, and that it isn't corrected. This is not the same thing at all.
:flower:


This is an ideal, a nice one, but that's all. Beginners that can dance from day one will enjoy and have fun, but what about the ones that aren't so fortunate?

The ones that look completely confused throughout the class? The ones that stand paralysed with indecision when confronted with the idea that it doesn't matter which foot to use? The ones that can't hear the beat too well? The ones that fall over when they try to spin?
So why try to teach these people lead and follow, tension and compression? They are struggling with any form of movement, so how would a lecture on these subjects assist them?

I'll tell you - they're not enjoying it. They're feeling crushingly embarrassed by what they experience as a complete lack of coordination, and a brain that turns to mush when they try to even remember left from right.

Tell them to dance, enjoy and have fun, sure :rolleyes: . Is it any wonder so few come back? :tears:
I agree :yeah: But you have to be pro active. Yes they may have problems but you have to tell them to not worry, everything's going to be ok, everyone was a beginner sometime etc etc. As this is all very true. Nobody starts dancing like a mini-me Viktor...do they? But without encouragement, they never will either. Don't think for a second that a teacher is told to constantly tell their class how good they are if they're not.....because that's simply not the case. We are however required to encourage and praise effort, which can be seen in any class by the bucket load, whether they have the routine or not. Surely that can't be denied?

My understanding is that you were fortunate to be so good at all this, James, that you were good enough to get to the Blackpool Intermediate final within a few short months of starting, and also to have lots of intensive coaching from someone more experienced, out of the embarrassment of being seen being rubbish in public. With a lot of hard work we managed to get to that final after 4 months of me starting to dance. IMHO that was not down to anything i had to offer other than determination and a realisation by Melanie that without good foundations you might as well be pi$$ing in the wind. We got to that final on beginners moves and about 2 or 3 intermediate moves. I'd never even been to an intermediate class before that competition. But was it due to intensive coaching out of the public eye? Far from it. We practised on a monday night at the regular class and one other night a week at a friends house.....that was it. Add in frustration, the odd argument with a lot of determination and a real passion for it and .....well, we made the final.

I put it to you that in a large number of cases, it simply is not helpful to say "just dance, have fun", because being awful at something - that you want to be able to do - is not fun at all. i totally agree Chris, but encouragement is still needed. I'm not suggesting that you do this at all but from a teaching perspective, i would never ever say to a beginner that they are doing something incorrect or wrong, more like, try it this way or that way. Be proactive, boost their confidence. Just because they don't get it in the class, that doesn't mean it all won't click in the revue class taken by people like your good self. The Ceroc model of teaching has been researched and developed (believe it or not) over 20 years. It's something they think they have right, and as i mentioned earlier, it's when your average armchair expert (not you by the way :flower: ) steps in that this model goes completely out of the window, as all those years of experience don't account for the bloke that says "don't do it that way, do it this way".......yeah, nice one!!


These people you have to teach - if they want you to. Of course, it's important to be able to distinguish the ones that do from the ones that don't, understand when the teaching ceases to be fun, and do something else instead to prevent overload... to get the balance right for each individual who's different from every other one.

Do they teach you how to do that while they're teaching you how to "say ... the same as the next teacher"? No, what they do teach, or rather achieve is that everyone that enters and leaves Mike Ellards studio is at the same high standard that Ceroc require. You don't make the grade? You don't pass the course....simple as that. But what they can't teach you to have is experience of reading the crowd......what works and what doesn't. That's up to the individual. Some teachers, ie. me, like to get feedback. Without feedback how are we to develop as teachers. If a class doesn't 'get it' then who's fault is it? Mine or their's for not telling me? It's a toughy......

Great discussion though :clap:

James :cheers:

[Jive Brummie]

And another thing.....

Ref; the Blackpool comp '03. Chris, you know Melanie.....can you imagine her face when i'd come off the dance floor on a monday night and i ask her all about this move or that move, or this 'thing' or that 'thing', that an armchair expert has told me about during our freestyle?

.....exactly. She worked so very hard for me to get to the level where i was able to do the beginners moves accurately. I go on the dance floor and i have somebody telling me how to do a pretzel at an early stage of my dancing 'career'.....not helpful. Sorry.

James xx

[ChrisA]

They are struggling with any form of movement, so how would a lecture on these subjects assist them?

I've never recommended lectures.

Gadget started this complete misrepresentation of how I described what I do with beginners, and to be honest, it's p1ssed me off.

I don't do it with lectures. I do it by dancing, mostly without telling them anything.

Ok?



but you have to tell them to not worry, everything's going to be ok, everyone was a beginner sometime etc etc. As this is all very true. Nobody starts dancing like a mini-me Viktor...do they? But without encouragement, they never will either.

I agree with this, and in my review classes, and one to one, I do this, and lots of encouragement - even by instigating (shock horror) a clap at the end of a class if I feel they've worked well and made progress even if they were still mostly dreadful at the end of it :D



With a lot of hard work we managed to get to that final after 4 months of me starting to dance.

Sure - what I'm getting at is that most people wouldn't be able to do that. You obviously picked it up quicker than most people could hope to. And I'm suggesting (I'm happy to be wrong :flower: )that it makes you more prone to believe that people will pick things up just through a bit of encouragement to have fun and enjoy. My experience is very different - much more like the majority of beginners, I'd suggest - and when you can't do it, being told to enjoy yourself when actually you want to be taught how to dance, is a right royal pain in the ar5e!!!!




i would never ever say to a beginner that they are doing something incorrect or wrong, more like, try it this way or that way. Be proactive, boost their confidence.

Absolutely. I agree with this too. It's no good at all telling them what not to do, because it doesn't help them know what they should be doing. (unless it's digging their nails into my hand, but the wet haddock comes in handy for that :wink: )


your average armchair expert
And some taxi dancers, too :mad:



at the same high standard that Ceroc require.
I don't actually have much of a problem with how beginners classes are taught. I don't think it's the best way of learning for either leaders or followers, as I've said elsewhere, but I totally accept the need to make the whole thing accessible and fun as well as a dance lesson, in order for people not to be put off too soon. So I think the compromise Ceroc have gone for is as practical as it can be - even though hard-core types like me find it frustrating.

But I do think that bouncy hands and yanking blokes should be corrected more energetically than they are, since it sows the seeds of a lot of problems later on.


If a class doesn't 'get it' then who's fault is it? Mine or their's for not telling me? It's a toughy......

It is a toughy. I invariably blame myself when they don't get it in the review classes. So I'm always looking for ways I can improve things.

But one to one, mostly they do get it. Without lectures. :waycool:

Chris

[jivecat]

I invariably blame myself when they don't get it in the review classes. So I'm always looking for ways I can improve things.



Chris

If the material is pitched at too high a level then you can't expect all members of the class to "get it". But in a review class I assume that you are not the one who chose that material so you should not blame yourself for their failure. It sounds to me like you do the very best you can to help people to master stuff that is still too hard for them.

[jivecat]

My question was really about what it is best to first learn set moves or the (lead and follow) theory behind them.

The Ceroc "four set moves" model is great for getting people started on the dance floor, but also leaves a lot to be desired. Receiving informal teaching from other dancers is one way of making up that deficiency, even if the quality of that teaching is sometimes a bit suspect.

For example, I remember being told by another dancer after about my third week, that if the leader offered a hand then I MUST take it. It absolutely staggers me now that I had to be told something so completely bleedin' obvious, but at the time it was sheer enlightenment! But what amazes me even more is that I had not been given direct teaching from the stage on this extremely basic point.

Most of the learning about lead and follow, which I now consider to be the most important feature of learning to dance, has either been something I (eventually) worked out by myself, or has been taught to me by fellow dancers.

I take Gus's point about the potential for mediocre dancers passing on bad advice (one of the reasons why I feel uncomfortable giving unsolicited teaching myself) but considering the almost complete absence of opportunities for personal feedback provided by the Ceroc model I think we are very dependent on informal amateur teaching to help beginners and intermediates progress.

[Gus]

...... but considering the almost complete absence of opportunities for personal feedback provided by the Ceroc model I think we are very dependent on informal amateur teaching to help beginners and intermediates progress.I dont think there is a complete absence of personal feedback. Simplest model ... ASK THE INSTRUCTOR FOR A DANCE! I remeber asking Micheala for a dance years back at Peterborugh and she spent a fair amount of time showing me where I was going wrong with my drops and giving me confidence to do them. Teachers are the most neglected resource at a club. Those that slope off and dont dance with the punters have no right to stay teachers and should be kicked out! :angry: :angry: (yeah I know there are a fair few about but thats no reason to tolerate it.)

Re the pint about baisc things not been told ... well, they are actualy all part of the model. If you werent told about the handholding ... thats due to teacher failure, not the failure of the model.

Got a few further thorughts re the 'limitations' of teh Ceroc model ... but they are a little off thread ... fanbcy helping contribute to a new thread?

[jivecat]

I dont think there is a complete absence of personal feedback. Simplest model ... ASK THE INSTRUCTOR FOR A DANCE! I remeber asking Micheala for a dance years back at Peterborugh and she spent a fair amount of time showing me where I was going wrong with my drops and giving me confidence to do them. Teachers are the most neglected resource at a club. )

I think I'd been dancing for nearly a year before I even spoke to a teacher!! I eventually plucked up courage to ask one to dance and then wished I hadn't 'cos he made me feel like a complete pleb. I thought it was completely normal for teachers to do the class, dance with a few favoured punters and then quietly disappear. But I think we were unlucky and the teachers we have had more recently are far more approachable and are doing a good job. And I have grown more confident.


Those that slope off and don't dance with the punters have no right to stay teachers and should be kicked out! :angry: :angry: (yeah I know there are a fair few about but thats no reason to tolerate it.

How exactly do you propose that we should not tolerate them?? Stand by the door with a watch and tell tales to Ceroc Central HQ if they depart before the magic hour of 10:45? Keep a catalogue of incidences of suspected hotshotting? Keep them in a cage and throw in a fresh beginner every three minutes?


Re the pint about baisc things not been told ... well, they are actualy all part of the model. If you werent told about the handholding ... thats due to teacher failure, not the failure of the model.

Maybe, but I think it's all teachers can do to cram in the instructions for the four moves to a class that may be struggling with them in the time allowed. I can't exactly blame them if the complete basics get neglected. I'd like to see 2 or 3 moves being taught with the other time being devoted to footwork or lead/follow exercises. I notice that some teachers are already including short, fun, footwork routines into their classes and I've really enjoyed these.


Got a few further thorughts re the 'limitations' of the Ceroc model ... but they are a little off thread ... fancy helping contribute to a new thread?

Don't I usually? :confused: Sorry, was I already off thread? (Completely oblivious. :blush: )

[Magic Hans]

...
Most of the learning about lead and follow, which I now consider to be the most important feature of learning to dance, has either been something I (eventually) worked out by myself, or has been taught to me by fellow dancers.
...
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Entirely agree! Learning to lead with confidence took me five years. [ok ... that was 5 years more off than on and doing Salsa] Quite frankly, had I known that at the very outset, I may have been totally put off! However I don't believe it needs to take so long ... it simply gets taught far too rarely. Nothing that I have seen in the 'CEROC' model goes anywhere close to teaching lead/follow effectively (IMHO), and although it's not rocket science, I don't believe that there is a logical, causal pathway.

It's so useful (IMO) to have some perspective at to what "lead" and "follow" means. Only after about 7 years of dancing can I now put words to these that I am happy with. That's crazy after so long. Having some ideas as to what a good as well as a bad lead and follow is would also have been sooo very useful to me, many moons ago (still quite useful now!)

As for what else might put me off as new punter:

a) wanting to be perfect from day one! So very implausible, but quite commone in all areas. It's a help if I'm encouraged to be a little kinder (less harsh) on myself when I make "mistakes", and reminded that everyone was a beginner once!

b) seeing others progress faster than me, or the "compare and contrast" game. It can be so demoralising watching others who started when I did getting to be so much better than me so quickly. A trick I used to use when training up motorcyclists on their CBT comes as a question. "Take yourself back to 9 o'clock this morning. How much have you picked up since then?"

It took me 25 years of my life to learn that the only two real valid comparisons that I can make, are between me now are a) me yesterday and b) me tomorrow!! Not a hugely complicated lesson that one! But a useful one.

These, in my humble and bigoted, are the three main dangers to new punters.

[ .... I just nearly got my keystrokes the wrong way roudn. I'm definitely not bigtoed .... not too sure how bigoted I am!!! I'm sure somone will let me know!!]

Ian

[Jive Brummie]

If beginners and indeed intermediates are so concerned about learning lead and follow, then why don't more of them attend a beginners workshop, where it is discussed and practised? Instead, they'd rather take unquantified advice from the class hotshot?

Baffles me. Own worst enemy springs to mind.

J.

[jivecat]

If beginners and indeed intermediates are so concerned about learning lead and follow, then why don't more of them attend a beginners workshop, where it is discussed and practised? Instead, they'd rather take unquantified advice from the class hotshot?

Baffles me. Own worst enemy springs to mind.

J.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is not taught consistently or effectively in beginners's weekly classes because there is little time left to emphasise it's importance after the huge moves element has been taught. I agree with you that 4 hour workshops with small numbers are far more effective - I went to one taught by John Sweeney which answered a lot of the questions that I had.

Did you never receive helpful advice/coaching/support from other, unqualified dancers when you were learning?? It might sometimes be a bit dodgy but it seems to me it's a fact of life for everyone trying to make progress with their dancing.

And some of those hotshots are pretty damned good. Aren't they?? :rolleyes:

[Magic Hans]

If beginners and indeed intermediates are so concerned about learning lead and follow, then why don't more of them attend a beginners workshop, where it is discussed and practised? Instead, they'd rather take unquantified advice from the class hotshot?

Baffles me. Own worst enemy springs to mind.

J.

That was half my problem! I didn't know that I had a problem until it had been identified and was being addressed!!! ... 3/4 years down the road!

There was me, concentrating on my steps, posture, timing etc without knowing or havling been told that lead/follow had any significant importance. Where does anyone define what lead/follow means, and what difference a good lead/follow makes??

I've seen it once or twice on the net, but have only heard one person talk about it convincingly in a training situation ... and that was an Argentine Tango session. The salient points are valid (IMHO) for all lead/follow dancing, though the mechanics might differ slightly.

I understand that their is some lead/follow reversal sessions that happen up in Scotland. Personally I'd like to see more of that, as it is a huge help in learning a tricky (for some) skill!

[Gadget]

My experience is very different - much more like the majority of beginners, I'd suggest - and when you can't do it, being told to enjoy yourself when actually you want to be taught how to dance, is a right royal pain in the ar5e!!!!
? You went to Ceroc wanting to learn how to dance? After the lesson and watching people and dancing with a few, you wanted to learn rather than actually dance?
It's not telling people to "enjoy themselves" - It's trying to get beyond the blinkers that you have to learn before you can have fun. If, as you suggest, people want to learn rather than being told to "enjoy yourself", then the best advice is that practice is the best tutor. (and hope that they pick up the "fun" thing on the way)

Which leads in a circle to the argument that un-trained and un-directed practice leads to the ingraining of 'bad habbits' and is more detrimental to dancers than getting them to learn the basics before they are allowed on the dance floor.

Personally, I think that it's wholey admirable and to be praised that there are people like Chris who take beginners so seriously and try their best to further those people's dancing and encourage them to stay.
But the whole Ceroc ethos is based arround the social aspect and the fact that anyone can dance - everyone wants to share the joy that they have found in dance and spread it. I think that any change in this balance towards a more stuctured, ridged, and 'learning' enviroment rather than the free flowing, social and enjoyment atmospere would be detrimental. But that's my opinion :wink:

[ChrisA]

? You went to Ceroc wanting to learn how to dance? After the lesson and watching people and dancing with a few, you wanted to learn rather than actually dance?

Exactly that, yes.

Because I knew very well that I couldn't do it at the beginning.

The "do one class and be able to dance the night away" is, for most people, a marketing gimmick rather than reality. Occasionally you get people that pick it up so quickly that they can freestyle immediately with the four moves they did, but it's not common, particularly for guys.

After the class, and watching people as you say, I certainly wanted to be able to be do it (duhhh :rolleyes: ), but I'm not the sort of person that can still enjoy the kind of lumbering around that new beginners do when they're trying to remember what they did in the class. I hate the feeling of awkwardness, and all I want to do is find a way of not feeling so awkward.

Now I'm quite happy to concede that some people do enjoy the kind of learning, where they just do what they can, in blind-leading-blind mode, and still find it fun - eventually most of the ones that stay (one in five go to more than a few classes, someone said?) will get to the point where they'll be able to freestyle happily enough, bad habits and all, and not know or care about those bad habits.

But equally, there are lots that do not, and I would bet that many of the ones that do not stay are in that category. Frequently I have to cajole beginners on to the floor because they are so embarrassed and awkward that they won't dance... "I'm not good enough" is a common line that I hear, bless them... :hug:

And the relief that's evident on the faces of the ones with whom I spend a track giving them what I'll call a teaching dance, coupled with the frequent thanks I get when I do give them some verbal pointers, makes it clear to me that there are lots of people that really do value actually being taught how to do it.

So I'll continue to fill that niche with beginners for as long as they continue to value it :flower:



But the whole Ceroc ethos is based arround the social aspect and the fact that anyone can dance - everyone wants to share the joy that they have found in dance and spread it.

Well, this sounds lovely of course, but it doesn't have any relevance to the point. Socialising is a part of the whole deal, of course, and an important part. As is the prospect of pulling for some, and the exercise for others. But the idea that more than a tiny proportion of new beginners turn up and on their first night get much joy from the actual dancing is completely daft. Except the girls that get to dance with guys who can lead well enough to enable them to dance without having to learn very much up front.

What they do get, apart from some fun and some socialising, is an aspiration - a hope - and maybe a little learning that gives them the confidence that maybe they'll be able to do it, and the courage to come back and try again.

My objective with the beginners is to teach them what I can, in whatever way suits their individual learning style, give them lots of encouragement, reassure them that they're normal when they muck it up or don't get it immediately, and remind them how much progress they've made since the last time they came, or maybe even since the beginning of the track.

I wonder if more people were more sensitive to the reality of how the beginners feel in the early days, and enabled them to get through that initial period of awkwardness and frustration, if more of them would stay and not give up. :flower:

Chris

[Lynn]

What they do get, apart from some fun and some socialising, is an aspiration - a hope - and maybe a little learning that gives them the confidence that maybe they'll be able to do it, and the courage to come back and try again. :yeah: We had a lot of muggles along on Wed night here in Belfast - maybe 28 amongst 34 in the class. And we don't even have a teacher, so those of us who can dance a little bit had to teach them a few moves. (Goodness knows how many bad habits they are picking up! But its literally that or nothing here.) Quite a few were up on the floor in the freestyle practising the moves they had learned, if they got it wrong, trying again... and I would say that more than half will want to learn more. (And we don't have a teacher :tears: ) I will be really pleased if even a few people who came along on Wed night, never having done any form of partner dancing before, have got now some aspiration and hope that they can learn more.

[RogerR]

The early classes I attended were so badly taught as to be frankly off-putting. The best training I had was from like-standard female partners who also wanted to work out how to enjoy getting better at dancing. Taking a muggle at their first attendance and enthusing them to do a begginers class later is a vital task and giving a male muggle the encouragement to continue til his lead develops is an even more important task.

[Gadget]

After the class, and watching people as you say, I certainly wanted to be able to be do it (duhhh :rolleyes: ), but I'm not the sort of person that can still enjoy the kind of lumbering around that new beginners do when they're trying to remember what they did in the class. I hate the feeling of awkwardness, and all I want to do is find a way of not feeling so awkward.
:D point conceded - I feel blessed that I picked it up so quickly, or at least didn't seem to suffer from a "lumbering around" phase (in my mind anyway - reality may have been subtally different :D).
I also feel that for men it must be harder than ladies; they seldom have the chance to just loose themselves in the music or forget about what they are doing - it's a constant and paniced "what next?!"


I wonder if more people were more sensitive to the reality of how the beginners feel in the early days, and enabled them to get through that initial period of awkwardness and frustration, if more of them would stay and not give up. :flower:
Who's reality? Since one in five stay on, it's only realy those that you can measure; and if the majority of those are of the same "aquardness and frustration" reality but remained, then perhaps it is something else?
Personally I think it's more an ego thing - most folk can't stand being singled out as being bad at something. :shrug: I doubt we will ever know.

[MartinHarper]

Just because i'm a teacher, by no means implies that i know everything. However, what it should hopefully say is that what i say to you will be the same as the next teacher and so on and so forth.

My experience is that teachers frequently disagree with each other, even teachers within the same franchise. Some teachers go one stage further, and disagree with themselves, which is somewhat above the call of duty, but very much appreciated. :)

[Trish]

I agree with Chris A on all this - Chris I'd give you some rep, but it won't let me!

Not all beginners are naturals, and although they definately need encouragement, this alone will not help all of them (especially the men!). The men all need you to go through moves with them, some need it more than others, and I'll ask them what they'd like me to help them with. Some just need you to dance with them and repeat the patterns from the class, others need you to break down the moves slowly so they have some idea of what they look like. But they all need some sort of "try this, it'll work better than that" type of correction. If a man is bouncing or gripping your hand I will tell him not to do this, but I'll also tell him why - ie it hurts and I'll do it kindly.

With the women, I agree with Chris, some women are over worried about learning the moves, and with these I'll change the order or add in simple moves so they don't start leading you. I'll also ask them to switch off, listen to the music and try to feel where they're being lead to, so they relax a bit. I'll tell them that it isn't their responsibility to remember the moves, and that they should just do what feels right which I often find relaxes them. I'll make suggestions if they are gripping too tight or pulling your arm off, but I do it with a sense of humour I hope!

Trish

[Lynn]

Taking a muggle at their first attendance and enthusing them to do a begginers class later is a vital task and giving a male muggle the encouragement to continue til his lead develops is an even more important task. The advantage of things being on a small scale here is that I know exactly who has done MJ before and who has not. With one guy last Wed, I knew he had never done any form of partner dancing, and that was his first evening - but I still did the 'I won't go anywhere unless you lead me' bit in the freestyle. He was getting some bits of the moves wrong - but I think he was pleased that he was actually leading me through the move. He'll probably forget the moves - but hopefully will remember the feeling of starting to learn about leading and will want to continue to learn.