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Chicklet
24th-December-2004, 02:45 PM
Just been watching some of the clips from a link that David F posted a while back of SwingDiego (eg Robert Cordoba and chums) and I noticed that, more often than I have noticed before, the dancers have chosen to do the same move twice in a row (yes I know a lot of it is choreographed :grin: )

Anyway - question - APART FROM the usual " couldn't think of another one for a mo" reason, does anyone ever use this as a tactic, style point etc?

Do we think it looks good?

I have to say it looked very effective in the clips I was watching, and must have been "eyecatching" (evilcompthought) as here I am mentioning it!

thoughts?

C :D

Chicklet
24th-December-2004, 02:47 PM
PS - remind me - is the Jack n Jill our dance with a stranger and therefore freestyle??

Graham
24th-December-2004, 02:59 PM
PS - remind me - is the Jack n Jill our dance with a stranger and therefore freestyle??
Yes, it is.

DavidB
24th-December-2004, 03:10 PM
If you ever saw Torvill & Dean doing a routine, they used a lot of Dramatic Repetition. It only seems to work if you are very good - ie you can show perfection twice in a row. Unfortunately for most people it simply doubles your chance of getting it wrong, or showing something the judges don't like.

In a lot of the WCS freestyle, they do a lot of very simple moves, and only a handful of flashy tricks. There are lots of reasons for this - they want to show plenty of contrast, they want their flashy moves to really stand out, and they are expected to show a good mastery of the fundamentals of the dance. Of course they have the advantage of being the only couple on the floor at the time, so don't need to worry about the judges looking at another couple. And the judges reward 'dancing' in preference to 'flash and trash' (their words).

DavidY
24th-December-2004, 03:19 PM
the dancers have chosen to do the same move twice in a row (yes I know a lot of it is choreographed :grin: )

Anyway - question - APART FROM the usual " couldn't think of another one for a mo" reason, does anyone ever use this as a tactic, style point etc?I'm a definite beginner at this musical interpretation lark - but if a musical phrase repeats twice in a row (can't think of an example just now :blush: but I know it happens) then it would feel right to me to repeat the same move, or part of a move, to fit the repeating phrase.

Chicklet
24th-December-2004, 03:22 PM
And the judges reward 'dancing' in preference to 'flash and trash' (their words).
how bizzare :what:

seriously, *what he said* really is what comes across, there's so much "ooze" (cultural ref: Elvis, GI Blues) and "slink".

The other thing I noticed (on a roll here) is that they seemed to make sections out of the dance, ie a "two handed section" featuring lots of two handed moves all in a row....I'm trying to make my mind up about this, does it smack of "lets get this little section we've learned in here now" and look forced, or is it a really nice idea? My jury is out at the mo - will have to look again!!

bigdjiver
24th-December-2004, 04:38 PM
Just been watching some of the clips from a link that David F posted a while back of SwingDiego (eg Robert Cordoba and chums) and I noticed that, more often than I have noticed before, the dancers have chosen to do the same move twice in a row (yes I know a lot of it is choreographed :grin: )

Anyway - question - APART FROM the usual " couldn't think of another one for a mo" reason, does anyone ever use this as a tactic, style point etc?


There is a particular track where I repeat the same move three times in a row to the chorus, and usually repeat the exercise more than once.


Do we think it looks good?

I have no idea, and I do not care. I know most partners love it.

Andreas
24th-December-2004, 07:23 PM
I occasionally do repeat a really fast move or a very simple move with a slight difference. In the latter case the repetition will then be slowed down at the end ... just as the music determines.

Zebra Woman
24th-December-2004, 07:50 PM
I really like repetition especially if it fits well with the music.

Plus some guys do wonderful moves unique to them,and if I have told them that I like the move then I'm delighted if I get loads of repetition of that move during a dance.

Actually it's not necessarily the move that is unique to them it's more the way they do it.

Repetition can also give me a chance to engage more with the music too cos I can relax more.

All plusses IMO

ZW :flower:

Yogi_Bear
24th-December-2004, 09:30 PM
I really like repetition especially if it fits well with the music.

Plus some guys do wonderful moves unique to them,and if I have told them that I like the move then I'm delighted if I get loads of repetition of that move during a dance.

Actually it's not necessarily the move that is unique to them it's more the way they do it.

Repetition can also give me a chance to engage more with the music too cos I can relax more.

All plusses IMO

ZW :flower:
Yes, I often repeat moves, if it's right for the music and also if I like doing the move or (occasionally I would repeat if it gets a favourable response first time round). There is also the idea of repeating the move with slight variations. I'm not hung up about never repeating moves, and I have to admit a lot of the moves I lead are made up (within the broad MJ idiom).

Gadget
29th-December-2004, 02:56 AM
I noticed that, more often than I have noticed before, the dancers have chosen to do the same move twice in a row
Well, the arm jive, and the octopus, are repeat moves; I often do a first move, catch the hip on exit to go into a first move again, or rotate the lady into another first move. Same with baskets - into a basket, unwrap, whip into a basket again.
If you are talking about more complex micro-sequences, then it can be impressive; I have a neverending pretzel variation that I throw in every now & again to fill large 'dead' areas of a song with interest, and a duck-under cattapult thing that can be perpetual.

.. thinking on it more, I think that I actually do this a lot - use one "position" and throw in two or three variation exits and linking moves; I think that it may give the lady more of a chance to have a 'grounding' in the dance - a usefull and recognisable place to return to when I go off on a little wander into the un-known. (This may also explain the grouping of single handed/double handed moves you mentioned)
For more complex sequences, I think part of the the reason for repeating a segment of a dance is to show that it is a sequence and a pre-planned move rather than a confused and thrown together assortment of moves made up on the spot. (well, it is for me :blush: ) It is also saying "yea- that was cool; let's do it again...", and giving everyone that wasn't paying attention the first time a chance to see it again.
{Or I screwed it up the first time and really want to show that I can actually do it... honest.}

Chicklet
29th-December-2004, 06:26 PM
All seem pretty much in favour of this!!!
..which is nice, so guys, don't be afraid to try and make the girls do something twice in quick succession, you'll find a lot of us most receptive :grin: (and able :devil: )

Yogi_Bear
29th-December-2004, 06:29 PM
All seem pretty much in favour of this!!!
..which is nice, so guys, don't be afraid to try and make the girls do something twice in quick succession, you'll find a lot of us most receptive :grin: (and able :devil: )Indeed, if only us guys were always capable of that :D

Feelingpink
29th-December-2004, 07:18 PM
Well, the arm jive, and the octopus, are repeat moves; I often do a first move, catch the hip on exit to go into a first move again, or rotate the lady into another first move. Same with baskets - into a basket, unwrap, whip into a basket again.

If you are talking about more complex micro-sequences, then it can be impressive; I have a neverending pretzel variation that I throw in every now & again to fill large 'dead' areas of a song with interest, and a duck-under cattapult thing that can be perpetual.


PLEASE STOP THE NEVER-ENDING PRETZEL. Anything where I'm whizzing around and around with my arms flailing around in the air for more than two turns feels horrid. I used to wonder why I didn't like dancing with some people when I first strted MJ at Ceroc ... and it was because they would do this. It might feel clever to you, but it feels horrid on the receiving end. It is not slinky nor especially musical nor exciting nor interesting nor clever nor cool - just yuk. Just a personal opinion, by the way. Basket variations can be OK - they can include pauses to suit the music and they can be slinky and fun and we can make eye contact. Hell, we might even smile because we're having fun.

If you do find yourself with "dead areas of a song" to fill "with interest", why not take a management view and let the woman play at this point (SEP - someone else's problem). It gives you breathing space to think of something interesting and the woman will (usually) thank you.

HeatherX
29th-December-2004, 08:23 PM
Hmmmm.....I do rather agree about the never ending pretzel, unless it is done very well and gracefully (which is, in my experience, quite rare). It is hard to stay comfortable and I feel 'twisted about' when a guy does this, and that's not a good feeling. However, I have seen it done between regular partners and it can look great.

Gadget
30th-December-2004, 01:19 AM
PLEASE STOP THE NEVER-ENDING PRETZEL. Anything where I'm whizzing around and around with my arms flailing around in the air for more than two turns feels horrid.
I don't know if it's a proper fast-whurly-arms-flying-knotted-confusion-pretzel - I just call it that because it's the closest I have seen to what I do. I do it slower win a couple of walking 'break points' that can be used in the middle. Admittedly it is one of the dizzyfying moves in my arsenel :innocent:


If you do find yourself with "dead areas of a song" to fill "with interest", why not take a management view and let the woman play at this point (SEP - someone else's problem). It gives you breathing space to think of something interesting and the woman will (usually) thank you.Wouldn't you rather have something interesting to use? You can only give a lady space to "work it" if she is interested in actually "working it". Personally I perfer the lady to take the initative on inserting 'styling' - don't catch, linger instead of following a direct lead, use the off-hand for bondy contact and drop the lead hand... Give me something to work with and I can addapt to suit. I imagine that it is very hard to switch between a passive (if expressive) follow to suddenly have the lead remove and be expected to fill in the blanks. Especially if it's the areas in a song that don't inspire. If you dance with your partner, then hi-jacking is not hi-jacking the lead, but indicating to the lead that you want to change the style of dance for a few beats. {...imho}


On a related subject: Two repetitions is OK - are three OTT?

Feelingpink
30th-December-2004, 01:55 AM
I don't know if it's a proper fast-whurly-arms-flying-knotted-confusion-pretzel - I just call it that because it's the closest I have seen to what I do. I do it slower win a couple of walking 'break points' that can be used in the middle. Admittedly it is one of the dizzyfying moves in my arsenel :innocent:

Why do a move which confuses and dizzies the follower? Some guys lead three or four quick spins in a row ... but usually when they know me, it suits the music and they are trying to jokingly wind me up (on every level).:devil:


Wouldn't you rather have something interesting to use? You can only give a lady space to "work it" if she is interested in actually "working it". Personally I perfer the lady to take the initative on inserting 'styling' - don't catch, linger instead of following a direct lead, use the off-hand for bondy contact and drop the lead hand...

I think we may differ on our thoughts of "useful". If multiple pretzels are being offered as the "interesting" alternative, then the answer is no, but then again, I'm someone who likes working with whatever space is given to me. Perhaps a woman who has no interest in working with that space would like six pretzels in a row. :devil:


Give me something to work with and I can addapt to suit. I imagine that it is very hard to switch between a passive (if expressive) follow to suddenly have the lead remove and be expected to fill in the blanks. Especially if it's the areas in a song that don't inspire. If you dance with your partner, then hi-jacking is not hi-jacking the lead, but indicating to the lead that you want to change the style of dance for a few beats. {...imho}

I don't remember having a problem with playspace ... but there are also some guys who don't react terribly well to my taking liberties with their leads. I would prefer to 'play' but can understand that they may well be thinking and/or counting through their moves so that we end up hitting a break or doing something else musical ... and me taking an extra beat or two messes up their plans. I figure that there is a spectrum of dancers stretching from those who need to count and control everything at one extreme to those who make it all up as they go along at the other. I prefer the latter type because I'm like that myself, but try to respect those at the other end of the spectrum by not messing with their rhythm too much.


On a related subject: Two repetitions is OK - are three OTT?

Depends on the music, the dancers, the move itself ... don't think there is a definitive answer (unless it's pretzels ... although I could change my mind for the edible kind) :drool:

jockey
30th-December-2004, 02:50 AM
If I am dancing with an inexperienced dancer I often come back to a move that went well earlier in the routine so that she isn't overfaced with new moves - I treat it as the chorus. This builds my partners confidence.

Yogi_Bear
30th-December-2004, 09:45 AM
Depends on the music, the dancers, the move itself ... don't think there is a definitive answer (unless it's pretzels ... although I could change my mind for the edible kind) :drool:
I agree - I can't see a problem with repeating certain moves, excluding things like endless pretzels and tiring or disorientating moves that require the follower to perform multiple spins or turns. It does depend on the music, of course. If the music calls for repititions I will do repititions, possibly with slight variations.

Gadget
2nd-January-2005, 12:27 AM
Why do a move which confuses and dizzies the follower? Cos I'm evil? :devil:

I would prefer to 'play' but can understand that they may well be thinking and/or counting through their moves so that we end up hitting a break or doing something else musical ... and me taking an extra beat or two messes up their plans. So is it better to have a good dance where you enjoy the music and take that extra beat/two, or risk the lead's wrath?

Feelingpink
2nd-January-2005, 02:32 PM
So is it better to have a good dance where you enjoy the music and take that extra beat/two, or risk the lead's wrath?

I'll take the odd extra beat or two and play ... then look to my partner for his reaction. While I am out for a great dance, I'm also thinking about my partner's enjoyment too - this isn't called partner dancing for nothing. If I get feedback that it was fine ... then I know I can keep doing that, if not, then I'll rein in and follow his lead without taking extra beats. Sometimes you get fabulous feedback from your partner where they haven't danced before with a follower taking playspace and they get really excited that dancing can be like this - you can see the lightbulb going on! Twice this happened at Rock Bottoms and it was just bliss. :clap: I'm not saying that this means I'm a brilliant dancer ... just that I like taking liberties. :devil:

The exception to this is perhaps once in a blue moon when someone obviously doesn't care at all about my dance experience, then I might just take beats here and there when I fancy and hope that it discourages them from asking me to dance again.

Yogi_Bear
3rd-January-2005, 12:43 AM
I'll take the odd extra beat or two and play ... then look to my partner for his reaction. While I am out for a great dance, I'm also thinking about my partner's enjoyment too - this isn't called partner dancing for nothing.
Please do - I would rather that happened than it didn't. If my partner starts to improvise or take over the lead for a while that's always fine by me. Some of my best dances happen that way.

MartinHarper
4th-January-2005, 11:40 PM
Interesting you say this was from SwingDiego. When dancing Lindy I sometimes deliberately repeat moves. For example, if the music has 24 beats of lyric and then an 8 beat break, I might lead the same 8 beat move three times, followed by a different 8 beat move to fill up the break. I don't do the same in MJ, though. I think that's because the moves vary much more in length, so I'd have to do some maths to get the numbers to work out.


they seemed to make sections out of the dance, ie a "two handed section" featuring lots of two handed moves all in a row....

I've heard this sort of thing taught as musicality - if the music is structured into blocks in some way, you can emphasise this by dancing each block differently. So, if the music is going AABA, you might have a block of two-handed moves during the "B". I'm not wildly convinced, myself.

Commis Chef
5th-January-2005, 09:41 PM
I am not sure if this counts as two in a row but what I really dislike is the repeated lift up and down of the woman in a drop position.

I remember a couple who were placed in the ceroc champs last year where he stood astride his partner dropped between his legs and 'bounced' her three times up and down. There was no interpretation or musicality involved in this move and it mystified me as to why it would impress judges. :confused:

I also know how much I dislike being on the receiving end of this type of drop which makes me feel like some sort of rag doll.

bigdjiver
5th-January-2005, 09:52 PM
... he stood astride his partner dropped between his legs and 'bounced' her three times up and down. ...

I also know how much I dislike being on the receiving end of this type of drop which makes me feel like some sort of rag doll. This move goes beyond my limits too, for being too crudely sexual. However, I have seen many women that appear to love it, and the girls fighting over the guy that does it down our way.

I do other "rag doll" moves, and there too, there are women that like them, and those that hate them.