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Andreas
18th-December-2004, 11:29 PM
Hi there.

As the topic states, it is all about handjive. I don't mean each person by themselves but rather the more or less pronounced bouncing handhold.

I have noticed that, more than anywher else I have been before, here in the UK people tend to keep the beat in their hands only. This results in hands bouncing up to half a metre up and down. :rolleyes:

Now, I on the other hand have hardly any vertical movement in my arms unless a lead or move requires it. I noticed that the majority of the girls consequently struggle sticking to the beat when dancing with me. :sick: Yeah yeah ... cut it out :wink: :rofl:

I did learn rock'n'roll way back and believe that is where this handjive kind of originates, swing and r'n'r. In Ceroc/MJ I really don't like it, well the look of it :D I also wonder how a man can actually lead properly when constantly bouncing his hands. Having said that, the ladies always tried to get my hand to bounce so it may not be the guys after all :rofl:

This is not supposed to be a flame but rather an invitation for a discussion of the topic. What is your point of view?

ChrisA
19th-December-2004, 02:41 AM
This is not supposed to be a flame but rather an invitation for a discussion of the topic. What is your point of view?

Lots of stuff about hand bouncing here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2719)

HTH

Andreas
19th-December-2004, 12:00 PM
cool, just the thread I was looking for.

thanks :)

jivecat
19th-December-2004, 12:11 PM
cool, just the thread I was looking for.

thanks :)


Bears reading again and again! I danced with some relentlessly bouncy dancers on Tuesday. Not only was it exhausting & not very enjoyable but my right arm is still in shock and painful 5 days later. Grrr.

Ceroc, AFAIK, does not teach anyone to persistently bounce their arms, but neither have I heard a teacher telling people NOT to do it. So it would be easy to unwittingly acquire the habit.

Andreas
19th-December-2004, 12:19 PM
Bears reading again and again! I danced with some relentlessly bouncy dancers on Tuesday. Not only was it exhausting & not very enjoyable but my right arm is still in shock and painful 5 days later. Grrr.

I usually refrain from leading pretzels and stuff like this because it tends to have dislocating effects on my shoulders. However, other moves simply won't work because the bounce is so strong that one has trouble ducking under ones own hand before the partner pulls it down again :rofl:


Ceroc, AFAIK, does not teach anyone to persistently bounce their arms, but neither have I heard a teacher telling people NOT to do it. So it would be easy to unwittingly acquire the habit.

I agree, it probably isn't taught but also not discouraged enough. Where I learned they did mention it every now and again but while bouncy hands were not too popular, they actually did teach a LIMP to beginners. Most people struggled from then on getting rid of that limp, hence they bounced in there knees. Just as dreadful!

I think to get to the bottom of it is to include more musicality in classes. I have done that in the past and most of my pupils developed a smooth style because they started to understand and feel music rather than having to bounce to it.

MartinHarper
19th-December-2004, 05:06 PM
I was expecting this to be a thread on actual hand jiving (ie: sat down dancing), so I was a little dissappointed to see yet another complaint about bouncing hands. Ahh well.


I did learn rock'n'roll way back and believe that is where this handjive kind of originates, swing and r'n'r.

Locally, R'n'R has louder hands than MJ, and Lindy has quieter hands than MJ. I don't know about other forms of swing, though.


I wonder how a man can actually lead properly when constantly bouncing his hands.

Really?

Most of the leading in MJ, certainly at a beginner/intermediate level, is in the horizontal movement of the hand. The hand bounce is vertical, so it doesn't interfere. Hand height is one way that turns and returns are lead: waist height vs head height. Few people bounce their hands with that much amplitude, so again there's no interference. Following MJ requires some resistance to horizontal movement (or else have spaghetti arms), but little resistance to vertical movement (or else be unable to follow combs, etc).

It seems that, going beyond beginner MJ, there start to be more leads that involve subtle vertical movements of the hand - a slight raise to get the girl to lift up, or a slight fall to get her to commit weight. To lead these "properly" means losing/reducing the hand bounce. Such subtleties seem to be peripheral to MJ, rather than fundamental.


I have hardly any vertical movement in my arms unless a lead or move requires it. I noticed that the majority of the girls consequently struggle sticking to the beat when dancing with me.

I find it harder to lead some things with a hand bounce. I find it harder to lead some things without a hand bounce. The beat is one of the latter.


I danced with some relentlessly bouncy dancers on Tuesday. Not only was it exhausting & not very enjoyable but my right arm is still in shock and painful 5 days later.

Dancers with a bouncy hand typically dance like that to every single dance. Yet, I very rarely hear complaints from these dancers about their arms hurting after dancing. Does anyone know what their technique is for avoiding the pain that jivecat is feeling?

Whitebeard
19th-December-2004, 08:58 PM
..... they actually did teach a LIMP to beginners.
I have an intermittently painful gammy leg which often causes me to walk carefully and with a limp. But, strangely enough, I forget all about it in the heat of the dance.

However, what's this about teaching a LIMP ??

Andreas
19th-December-2004, 09:11 PM
However, what's this about teaching a LIMP ??

That is the way they teach keeping the beat. They bounce on every uneven beat. I can only interpret it as misunderstanding of getting the beat/music in your hips. Don't ask me, it is just as bad as bouncy hands when you see people bopping on the dance floor :eek:

MartinHarper
19th-December-2004, 09:30 PM
They bounce on every uneven beat.

Not quite sure I understand... are you saying that they bounce down on the "down beat", and up on the "off beat" or "up beat"?

ChrisA
19th-December-2004, 10:48 PM
Most of the leading in MJ, certainly at a beginner/intermediate level, is in the horizontal movement of the hand. The hand bounce is vertical, so it doesn't interfere.

Er, rubbish.

Of course it interferes. You might be able to resolve horizontal and vertical movements in a physics or applied maths lesson, but dancing isn't about this.

The whole problem about bouncy hands is that when the hands are going up and down so much vertically it simply isn't possible to feel what's going on horizontally, so 99% of the important stuff is lost.

And it hurts. And it looks crap, IMHO.


Hand height is one way that turns and returns are lead: waist height vs head height. Few people bounce their hands with that much amplitude, so again there's no interference.

Not true. Lots of them do. Lots and lots and lots. :tears:



It seems that, going beyond beginner MJ, there start to be more leads that involve subtle vertical movements of the hand - a slight raise to get the girl to lift up, or a slight fall to get her to commit weight. To lead these "properly" means losing/reducing the hand bounce. Such subtleties seem to be peripheral to MJ, rather than fundamental.

The subtleties of the lead that you're describing here relate to the whole frame, not just the hand.



I find it harder to lead some things with a hand bounce. I find it harder to lead some things without a hand bounce. The beat is one of the latter.

The beat does not have to be led or followed. It's already in the music. You don't have to count the beats with your hand.




Dancers with a bouncy hand typically dance like that to every single dance. Yet, I very rarely hear complaints from these dancers about their arms hurting after dancing. Does anyone know what their technique is for avoiding the pain that jivecat is feeling?
The bouncers don't feel the pain. It's the bouncees that feel the pain, because dancers that don't do it, don't like it, so they have an instinctive tendency to resist the bouncing. Hence their subjective experience is to feel yanked.

I simply avoid dancing with bouncers, these days. It feels horrible, and I end up in pain in all kinds of places.

Chris

Feelingpink
19th-December-2004, 11:04 PM
Most of the leading in MJ, certainly at a beginner/intermediate level, is in the horizontal movement of the hand. The hand bounce is vertical, so it doesn't interfere. Hand height is one way that turns and returns are lead: waist height vs head height. Few people bounce their hands with that much amplitude, so again there's no interference. Following MJ requires some resistance to horizontal movement (or else have spaghetti arms), but little resistance to vertical movement (or else be unable to follow combs, etc).

It seems that, going beyond beginner MJ, there start to be more leads that involve subtle vertical movements of the hand - a slight raise to get the girl to lift up, or a slight fall to get her to commit weight. To lead these "properly" means losing/reducing the hand bounce. Such subtleties seem to be peripheral to MJ, rather than fundamental.


Er, no. If the woman is following as she is meant to, a bouncing hand means that the woman will be bouncing up and down with it. This is fundamental to MJ, rather than peripheral. If anyone is in doubt, a recent Nigel and Nina class at Hipsters would have put that one to rest. They spent most of a 40-minute lesson or so trying to smooth many of the leads who insisted on bouncing their hands or simply not being in control of where their hands should be.

A bouncing hand feels horrid, really. It makes me want to walk off the floor. I can feel the beat of the music, thank you. So when you say there's no "interference", I disagree - there is interference with my enjoyment of dancing, interference with the music's nuances and interference with my following.

MartinHarper
19th-December-2004, 11:55 PM
waist height vs head height. Few people bounce their hands with that much amplitude Not true. Lots of them do. Lots and lots and lots. :tears:

Let me get this straight. You're telling me that lots and lots and lots of people bounce their hands so dramatically that the low point is at waist level, as for normal hold, and the highest point is above head level, as for a turn/return? About a metre in size? Wow.
I've danced a few places round here, and never danced with or seen anyone dancing who bounced their hands that much. I was thinking of hand bounces perhaps a foot in size - somewhere between waist level and chest level. I've danced with a few folks like that, but still not lots.


Of course it interferes. You might be able to resolve horizontal and vertical movements in a physics or applied maths lesson, but dancing isn't about this.

If I hold my hand out in "follower mode", the vertical component is in the lower arm/elbow, and the horizontal component is in the upper arm/shoulder: different muscle groups. As far as I can tell, that's how I can follow the difference between a turn and a return. I'm a really bad follower, though, so it may well interfere at a level I'm not yet aware of.
I don't seem to have much of a problem with hand bouncers when I'm leading, beyond the normal. It's probably harder for me to tell as I have so many missed leads for other reasons. :)


The bouncers don't feel the pain. It's the bouncees that feel the pain, because dancers that don't do it, don't like it, so they have an instinctive tendency to resist the bouncing. Hence their subjective experience is to feel yanked.

The point I was getting at is that folks who bounce their hands often dance with other folks who bounce their hands, and they don't seem to hurt each other. Maybe it's because they don't have an "instinctive tendency to resist"?

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 12:14 AM
Let me get this straight. You're telling me that lots and lots and lots of people bounce their hands so dramatically that the low point is at waist level, as for normal hold, and the highest point is above head level, as for a turn/return? About a metre in size? Wow.

Nope. I'm telling you that lots and lots of people bounce their hands enough to make it hard (or at least very uncomfortable) to lead anything.

You don't need a metre of bounce to ruin the connection.



The point I was getting at is that folks who bounce their hands often dance with other folks who bounce their hands, and they don't seem to hurt each other. Maybe it's because they don't have an "instinctive tendency to resist"?
Maybe so. They can carry on dancing with each other, AFAIC. I wouldn't want to spoil their enjoyment, I just don't want them to spoil mine. :flower:

Chris

Lory
20th-December-2004, 12:17 AM
Maybe it's because they don't have an "instinctive tendency to resist"?
I tend not to resist but not because I like it, I don't! :angry: I just find it hurts less! :nice:

I have on rare occasions, (if I feel I have a good rapour with the lead and will not cause offence) pointed out, that I think bouncy hands look and feel naff :blush:

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 12:19 AM
I have on rare occasions, (if I feel I have a good rapour with the lead and will not cause offence) pointed out, that I think bouncy hands look and feel naff :blush:
Fab.

And for those with whom you don't have a good rapport, a good kicking is perfectly acceptable :D

(Is silly week over yet? Can we have another one?????)

Whitebeard
20th-December-2004, 12:34 AM
That is the way they teach keeping the beat. They bounce on every uneven beat. I can only interpret it as misunderstanding of getting the beat/music in your hips. Don't ask me, it is just as bad as bouncy hands when you see people bopping on the dance floor
Hmm. I have a naturally springy walk, gait, and I'm sure this comes through in my dance; though more as rise and fall than bounce as I respond to the music. It comes up through flexed knees and translates into mainly horizontal body movement, I hope ;-)

MartinHarper
20th-December-2004, 01:21 AM
If the woman is following as she is meant to, a bouncing hand means that the woman will be bouncing up and down with it. This is fundamental to MJ, rather than peripheral. If anyone is in doubt, a recent Nigel and Nina class at Hipsters would have put that one to rest.

That's very interesting. I had this down as one of the big differences between lead/follow in MJ vs Lindy - that in Lindy moving the girl's hand up and down should translate into movement of her feet, whereas in MJ moving the girl's hand up and down should translate into a scowl. From what you're saying, it sounds like the difference is less vital than I thought.

IMO, MJ fundamentals are peripheral to MJ, as the vast majority of MJ dancers are never taught them. Good to hear that N&N are breaking with that unfortunate tradition.


I tend not to resist but not because I like it, I don't! :angry: I just find it hurts less! :nice:

I know that on a few occasions, when dancing with folks with a pronounced hand bounce, and mindful of comments made on this forum, I've tried to "resist"/"tame" the bounce. Such dances have invariably been no fun for either of us - they feel more like a fight than a dance. By contrast, where I have just gone along with it, I haven't had any real problems as a result, though no doubt we looked "naff".

I wonder if anyone else who has had problems with hand bouncers has tried this technique?

David Franklin
20th-December-2004, 09:47 AM
I have on rare occasions, (if I feel I have a good rapour with the lead and will not cause offence) pointed out, that I think bouncy hands look and feel naff

Fab.

And for those with whom you don't have a good rapport, a good kicking is perfectly acceptable :DAlthough I know what you both mean, I think it's possible to get too hung up on the "smooth = good, bounce = bad" hypothesis. Probably my favourite swing routine ever is by Robert Royston and Laureen Baldovi and won the US Open back in '96. And in it, he really does have quite bouncy hands... But what I think is key is that he controls the bounce, rather than the bounce controlling him - when he wants to be, he is smooth as silk...

Dave

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 09:55 AM
But what I think is key is that he controls the bounce, rather than the bounce controlling him - when he wants to be, he is smooth as silk...

Fair enough....

... I wouldn't exactly criticise Viktor's semicircles, either :innocent:

jivecat
20th-December-2004, 10:46 AM
I know that on a few occasions, when dancing with folks with a pronounced hand bounce, and mindful of comments made on this forum, I've tried to "resist"/"tame" the bounce..........
I wonder if anyone else who has had problems with hand bouncers has tried this technique?

Tricky one. When I say "hand bounce" I mean persistently moving the leading hand up and down about 6 or so inches(although it could be more, I don't usually have a measuring tape with me), usually to the rhythm, throughout the dance, with no obvious function apart from marking the beat.

I find that leaders who do this have to keep a lot of tension in their arm to enable them to keep this movement going. As a result they often use a bit too much force.

I can respond by putting as little tension in my arm as possible which works a bit in that it's harder for the leader to be so aggressive. But it also means that I am not following properly so the dance is a shambles. Dancing in such circumstances makes me really tense, so there's the absurd spectacle of me with my shoulders as stiff as a board trying to hold out an arm like a piece of chewed string while my partner manically flaps it up and down. Not good. To put things into perspective, I can only think of about 2 people who dance like this. One of them I don't like so it's no hardship to avoid dancing with him. The other one is someone who I dance with regularly, and had generally enjoyed despite his, um, vigorous, style until fairly recently. Do you think my attitude is being poisoned by the malign influence of the forum? :eek: But there are quite a lot of other dancers who have some degree of bounce at least some of the time.

The other way to respond is by matching the amount of tension the leader puts into his arm and replicating the bounce. This can work well, especially if the bounce matches the rhythm as it's predictable and I think some muscular tension can help prevent jarring of joints and tendons. But all the subtlety and pleasure of feeling the connection is wiped out.

Like Martin, I have often wondered how very enthusiastic bouncers put up with the discomfort. They must use up huge amounts of energy. But they are totally in control of what they do, which is a different thing from reluctantly being on the receiving end of it. I was rather hoping it was an imaginary pain which would go away but it's still here. But of course, I can't be sure that it's been caused by dancing with a bouncy dancer.

Gadget
20th-December-2004, 02:30 PM
OK, vertical bounce of hands marking time is baaaad - what about side to side?

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 02:45 PM
OK, vertical bounce of hands marking time is baaaad - what about side to side?
{slap}

:wink:

Lou
20th-December-2004, 03:00 PM
{slap}

:wink:
You might mock - but they do it at Ceroc Swindon :sick: It's very discombobulating!

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 03:06 PM
You might mock - but they do it at Ceroc Swindon :sick: It's very discombobulating!

:tears:

MartinHarper
20th-December-2004, 03:19 PM
OK, vertical bounce of hands marking time is baaaad - what about side to side?

You're talking about a side-to-side movement of the hand before the dance starts?
If the movement is lead by the man, and the lady responds by following the motion of her hand with her body, then it's good. It's a nice device for establishing connection, feeling out how your partner is leading/following today, and so forth.
If it's back-lead, or not followed, then it's bad.

Chef
20th-December-2004, 03:50 PM
Hand bouncing is one of the things that my partner looks out for when watching the dance floor as a way of DESELECTING people she might want to dance with. We dance between 4 and 5 nights a week so the last thing that either of us want is repetative yank injury. If she gets a hand bouncer (neither of us refuse to dance if asked, unless sure knowledge that physical injury will result) then I usually have to massage her arm to get the muscle tension out of it before I can dance with her properly again. I cannot look at the dance floor and see who the hand bouncers are because I have to assume that the men are leading it.

On this subject I can only quote others.

"You don't need to bounce your hand to keep time, you can BOTH hear the music" - Nigel Anderson

"All hand bouncing does is signal to your woman to jump up and down" - Nina Daines

"West coast swing dancers are trained to dance with holding a half filled wine glass in their hand to keep their hand movements smooth" - David Barker

"The only connection you need is for each of you to hold a peice of paper between your thumb and forefinger. If you need more grip than that then either you are pulling too hard or you partner is not responding to the lead well" - David Barker

My own veiw on hand bouncing is that it does not fulfill a valid function and thereby detracts from the efficiency of movement. I think of the conection between partners as a phone conversation. It must be mutual, it must have tone (no floppy arms) from both directions, it needs the most direct connection possible (ie forearms horizontal to the floor) and it needs as little noise (ie hand bouncing) on the line so that the signal can be sent and recived with clarity.

Anything there that anyone disagrees with?

DavidB
20th-December-2004, 04:10 PM
Anything there that anyone disagrees with?Not really. Just a request for everyone to return their half-filled glasses of wine to me so I can empty them.

Lory
20th-December-2004, 04:12 PM
"West coast swing dancers are trained to dance with holding a half filled wine glass in their hand to keep their hand movements smooth" - David Barker


Nice one David! :wink: How many bottles do you get through in a normal workshop? :rofl:

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 04:15 PM
On this subject I can only quote others.

"You don't need to bounce your hand to keep time, you can BOTH hear the music" - Nigel Anderson

"All hand bouncing does is signal to your woman to jump up and down" - Nina Daines

"West coast swing dancers are trained to dance with holding a half filled wine glass in their hand to keep their hand movements smooth" - David Barker

"The only connection you need is for each of you to hold a peice of paper between your thumb and forefinger. If you need more grip than that then either you are pulling too hard or you partner is not responding to the lead well" - David Barker


Anything there that anyone disagrees with?

Not at all.

But are these people you cite anyone we should have heard of?

Rhythm King
20th-December-2004, 05:03 PM
Not at all.

But are these people you cite anyone we should have heard of?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Chef
20th-December-2004, 05:09 PM
Not at all.

But are these people you cite anyone we should have heard of?

Even if you haven't heard of them then I just feel that it should be credit where credit is due. I wouldn't want others to think that I was the font of all wisdom just because I heard wise words from others.

If you REALLy don't know these people I would very strongly reccomend them as teachers. I would also reccomend Nigel and Nina and David and Lilly Barker for the sheer entertainment value of their bickering during teaching :D

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 05:23 PM
If you REALLy don't know these people

:wink:

bigdjiver
20th-December-2004, 06:20 PM
If the music says bounce and my partner is bouncing, I bounce. The dance may be better without bouncing, but there are possibly a gezillion ways in which our dance could be better, I just enjoy the moment.

Chef
20th-December-2004, 07:12 PM
If the music says bounce and my partner is bouncing, I bounce. The dance may be better without bouncing, but there are possibly a gezillion ways in which our dance could be better, I just enjoy the moment.

The only way that your partner should be bouncing is because you are leading it. The only reason that you should be leading it is because that is what you are interpreting the music to be saying to you. If that is what the music says to you then that is fine. That is the great thing about MJ - the style is not set in stone and you are free to do your own thing.

I have been to a number of venues where all the music seems to provide to me is a beat. I much prefer music which provides changes of mood, tells a story, breaks, slides, drops, sweeps and wiggles (and preferably all within the one song).

I suppose it is a very personal thing but I just haven't come across a dancer with a bouncing style that I would sit and watch for the sheer pleasure of it. Different people like different things I guess.

Can you tell me the names of any of these songs that say "bounce up and down?" Next time I hear one of them I will take time out to have a look at what happens on the dance floor. I can't learn unless I am looking out for the right thing at the right time. I can't find a smily that indicates that all of the above was said with a straight face.

DavidY
20th-December-2004, 07:16 PM
Hand bouncing is one of the things that my partner looks out for when watching the dance floor as a way of DESELECTING people she might want to dance with. ~SNIP~ I cannot look at the dance floor and see who the hand bouncers are because I have to assume that the men are leading it. ~SNIP~Anything there that anyone disagrees with?
um...Yes... The bit about assuming men leading it.

I'm don't claim to be 100% free of spurious movement, but if my hand is bouncing it is often because I'm being bounced...

If someone is "following" but is bouncing the joined hand, it's painful to resist (as pointed out earlier) and I sometimes end up giving in to the bounce as a less painful course. :tears: :tears:

Chef
20th-December-2004, 07:42 PM
um...Yes... The bit about assuming men leading it.

I'm don't claim to be 100% free of spurious movement, but if my hand is bouncing it is often because I'm being bounced...

If someone is "following" but is bouncing the joined hand, it's painful to resist (as pointed out earlier) and I sometimes end up giving in to the bounce as a less painful course. :tears: :tears:

I was just giving the women that I watch dancing with bouncing hands the benifit of the doubt in assuming that the bouncing would be coming from the male lead.

Sometimes I find myself dancing with someone that bounces her hand to a small amount but I try to keep my hand still and relaxed and often the bounce dissappears from her hand. If I come across a very severe hand bouncing lady then my connection is usually broken by the severity of the bouncing and the lady finds herself without my hand to hold. I would always prefer that a connection is lost by either party than cause injury (again to either party). If it seems like it is going to hurt then let go, stay uninjured, and live to dance the next track.

It doesn't matter if you let go because both dancers stay on balance in their own right at all times (except drops and lifts, of course).

It is not like you would ever come across anyone that would throw themselves backwards while doing a rockstep and as a result of not having your hand to hold would fall flat on their backs. That would never happen.

Andy McGregor
20th-December-2004, 07:58 PM
(loads of stuff about bouncy hands being OK)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Andy McGregor
20th-December-2004, 08:05 PM
"West coast swing dancers are trained to dance with holding a half filled wine glass in their hand to keep their hand movements smooth" - David Barker

I think you will find that those wine glasses DavidB uses are half emptied :whistle:

Andreas
20th-December-2004, 08:16 PM
Not quite sure I understand... are you saying that they bounce down on the "down beat", and up on the "off beat" or "up beat"?

My bad. It is a good indication how difficult I find to replicate it. They bounce down (limp) on the even beats, if you count each beat with a number; the numbered beat if you count 'and 1 and 2 ...'

Andreas
20th-December-2004, 08:23 PM
Hmm. I have a naturally springy walk, gait, and I'm sure this comes through in my dance; though more as rise and fall than bounce as I respond to the music. It comes up through flexed knees and translates into mainly horizontal body movement, I hope ;-)

I don't have a lot of vertical movement unless I actually throw it in. I guess the latin training pays responsible for it. My dance is characterised through ancle compression, which people have also called 'toey' in the past :rofl:

MartinHarper
20th-December-2004, 11:44 PM
It seems that, if I ever become a competent dancer, and follow the same path as several of the folks posting here, I'm going to find dancing with a whole group of people physically painful, possibly days after the event... a disconcerting vision of the future...


"You don't need to bounce your hand to keep time, you can BOTH hear the music" - Nigel Anderson

Very true for the folks Nigel was talking to, I expect.

Sometimes I find that my partner or I (or both) have trouble picking up the beat from the music, or we pick up different beats. Other times I want to dance half time, or double time, or otherwise mess around with the beat. Sometimes I lose the beat, and I want to pick it up again quickly. On such occasions, the ability to lead the beat is useful.

Still, I'm sure there are better ways to lead the beat than small hand bounces.

jivecat
21st-December-2004, 10:48 AM
It seems that, if I ever become a competent dancer, and follow the same path as several of the folks posting here, I'm going to find dancing with a whole group of people physically painful, possibly days after the event... a disconcerting vision of the future...

I'm probably a bit over-sensitive about the prospect of injury because physical fitness is incredibly important to me and as I get older I worry more about creating damage that won't heal up easily.

I think I've figured out that my arm pain is probably to do with the extensor muscles of the forearm, which are stressed by "grasping, holding, lifting, twisting and curling". (According to the website I've just looked at.) So I'll try and avoid doing any of those whilst dancing then. :rolleyes: If it makes you feel any better I've decided that bouncy hands probably wouldn't especially stress the bit that hurts, it's rotation of the forearm that does it.

I'm also a bit disconcerted to find that people who I looked up to as dance gods when I was a raw beginner, i.e. anyone with 3 months experience, have been revealed to have feet of clay as I've progressed. I've seen it as a measure of progress, in the same way as dancing with someone who I just couldn't cope with a year ago and finding that now I can. Does that make sense? I still like dancing with me old favourites, though.

Anyway, you're less likely to suffer injury/ pain because you're the leader and you're IN CONTROL!

ChrisA
21st-December-2004, 11:21 AM
If it makes you feel any better I've decided that bouncy hands probably wouldn't especially stress the bit that hurts, it's rotation of the forearm that does it.

I agree with this. It's not the bouncing in itself that causes pain, it's more the frustration resulting from the lack of subtlety in the connection that I don't like.

But bouncers are also quite frequently yankers... and even minor yanking is tiring over time. Especially the sort where the lady's balance is not maintained during turns, resulting in a hard sideways pull against me as she tries to remain upright. Since this pulls me off balance, I find that it aggravates a tendon injury I have at the side of my knee.



I'm also a bit disconcerted to find that people who I looked up to as dance gods when I was a raw beginner, i.e. anyone with 3 months experience, have been revealed to have feet of clay as I've progressed. I've seen it as a measure of progress, in the same way as dancing with someone who I just couldn't cope with a year ago and finding that now I can. Does that make sense?

Perfect sense. I think this must be many people's experience.



Anyway, you're less likely to suffer injury/ pain because you're the leader and you're IN CONTROL!
....:yeah:

Regarding Martin's comment:



I'm going to find dancing with a whole group of people physically painful, possibly days after the event... a disconcerting vision of the future...

I think this is true, and inevitable, if you enjoy lightness and subtlety.

But it's like anything that people learn to appreciate. Fine wine, malt whisky, ballet, opera, art (not that I know anything about most of these): once you develop a taste for something, and start learning how much there is to it, you can never go back.

You get fussier, more discerning, people start seeing you as elitist :devil: - it all goes with the territory. And the high that was easily achievable before becomes more elusive.

IMO there's no need to be ashamed of wanting to get into something in depth and experience all it has to offer.

And it doesn't mean that dancing with beginners isn't still nice :clap:

Chris

Andy McGregor
21st-December-2004, 11:37 AM
And it doesn't mean that dancing with beginners isn't still nice :clap:

Chris

I dance with beginners a lot. NONE of them have a hand bounce (although some do hang on like a limpet). This hand bounce is an infection, it is passed on by experienced hand bouncers. To worry about where the hand bounce came from is like asking where the herpes virus originated. It origin is irrelevant, but you do need to manage the epidemic and you do need to be careful who you snog - especially if they're bouncing up and down :devil:


.. is it still silly week? :confused:

Andy McGregor
21st-December-2004, 12:47 PM
Most of the leading in MJ, certainly at a beginner/intermediate level, is in the horizontal movement of the hand. The hand bounce is vertical, so it doesn't interfere. Hand height is one way that turns and returns are lead: waist height vs head height. Few people bounce their hands with that much amplitude, so again there's no interference. Following MJ requires some resistance to horizontal movement (or else have spaghetti arms), but little resistance to vertical movement (or else be unable to follow combs, etc).

It seems that, going beyond beginner MJ, there start to be more leads that involve subtle vertical movements of the hand - a slight raise to get the girl to lift up, or a slight fall to get her to commit weight. To lead these "properly" means losing/reducing the hand bounce. Such subtleties seem to be peripheral to MJ, rather than fundamental.


I find it harder to lead some things with a hand bounce. I find it harder to lead some things without a hand bounce. The beat is one of the latter.


Dancers with a bouncy hand typically dance like that to every single dance. Yet, I very rarely hear complaints from these dancers about their arms hurting after dancing. Does anyone know what their technique is for avoiding the pain that jivecat is feeling?

I've just received a negative rep comment from Martin Harper saying that he didn't say bouncy hands are OK. I've highlighted the parts of one post where he says bouncy hands are appropriate. I've not bothered to collect together the others, but there's some in this thread and there's some in the bobbing ladies thread. So, Mr Harper, you have wrongly neg repped me, getting to be a bit of a habit. What is your New Year's resolution going to be? Be nice, perhaps? :whistle:

Let's get this clear. There is a relentless bounce of the hands which people do to mark the beat. This is what we're talking about on this thread. It has nothing to do with leading any moves. It is completely irrelevant to lead and follow and partner dancing and is more like individual disco dancing - but holding on to a partner.

ChrisA
21st-December-2004, 01:06 PM
I dance with beginners a lot. NONE of them have a hand bounce (although some do hang on like a limpet).

Well some of them do, but I agree it's not that common. I carry a wet haddock specifically for the purpose of beating beginners that bounce their hands. Mostly it isn't needed, though, since a friendly "do that again and i'll slap you with this wet haddock" usually suffices :devil:

Seriously, though, the receptiveness of beginners is always a pleasure.



and you do need to be careful who you snog - especially if they're bouncing up and down :devil:

I usually find that by the time they're bouncing up and down, there isn't that much choice of whom to snog... but then I have led a very sheltered life :innocent:



.. is it still silly week? :confused:
Ooh I hope so.

Chris

Andy McGregor
21st-December-2004, 01:24 PM
Well some of them do, but I agree it's not that common.

I think some beginners have a disco bounce, which is on every beat. The Ceroc hand-bounce is on the correct beat - and that's something you need to be infected with.

If we can't find a cure maybe there should be a cull for the sake of future generations :whistle:

After the success of silly week maybe we should designate 2005 the European Year of Sillyness :wink:

Feelingpink
21st-December-2004, 01:25 PM
... I carry a wet haddock specifically for the purpose of beating beginners that bounce their hands. Mostly it isn't needed, though, since a friendly "do that again and i'll slap you with this wet haddock" usually suffices :devil:

Chris

Ah, so that's why you wear those black trousers with the zip-off pockets! :)

Chef
21st-December-2004, 01:27 PM
Just Like Andy MacGregor and many others I enjoy dancing with beginners. Someone danced with me when I was a beginner and helped me to progress and now is the time for me to repay my debt to them. Bad habits are learned from others (good ones are as well) and practice does not make perfect - it makes permanent. So it is important that good habits are instilled from day one and bad habits are not introduced.

Last saturday I asked a lady to dance and she immediately apologised saying that she was a beginner and had only been dancing for 3 months. I told her my view with beginners was that I was fine with her being a beginner and very happy to dance with her but if I found her at the same standard in a year or two then I would be less understanding.

Some people dance because they want to meet people and the dance is just an excuse. They rarely progress because getting better is not needed to dance with the steady stream of beginners that flows through each venue.

Some others really care about the dance and how it feels and how it makes them feel. For them the dancing experience is important both for them and their partners. These are the people that take notes, that take time out of the line up to have a closer look at the teacher, that practice moves away from the social dance floor, that ask the teacher questions during and after the lesson. These people take their responsibiilities to their partners very seriously and hope for and expect the same in return. It is no fun for these people who are striving to dance well for both themselves and their partners to find the same people yanking their arm off year after year.

So if you find that other dancers are getting better quicker than you or good dancers don't seek you out to dance with then it probably isn't to do with if you are good or bad. It is most likely that they have discovered that you don't care enough about what you are doing to put any effort into thinking about what you do and making it better.

Ladies tell me that they would rather an man know a small number of moves as long as he can do them well. As a leader I don't care at what stage I find a followers skill level and long as they ask questions (not just of me) and try to improve.

If you don't ask you cannot find what you are doing wrong.

If you don't know what you are doing wrong you can't correct it.

If you don't DO anything to correct an error you are destined to repeat the error forever.

I used to ask experienced follwers to dance with me and tell me at the end if there was anything that I was doing wrong and how I could correct it. Now I have a permanent partner that tells me at once without the need to ask.

Feelingpink
21st-December-2004, 01:28 PM
After the success of silly week maybe we should designate 2005 the European Year of Sillyness :wink:

Agree with the sentiment ... although object to the title on tautological grounds :devil:

Andy McGregor
21st-December-2004, 01:40 PM
Agree with the sentiment ... although object to the title on tautological grounds :devil:

You must be thinking of the EU Year of Sillyness - this started in 1973 when the UK joined up and is very nearly half-way through :wink:

Feelingpink
21st-December-2004, 01:48 PM
Some others really care about the dance and how it feels and how it makes them feel. For them the dancing experience is important both for them and their partners. These are the people that take notes, that take time out of the line up to have a closer look at the teacher, that practice moves away from the social dance floor, that ask the teacher questions during and after the lesson. These people take their responsibiilities to their partners very seriously and hope for and expect the same in return. It is no fun for these people who are striving to dance well for both themselves and their partners to find the same people yanking their arm off year after year.

So if you find that other dancers are getting better quicker than you or good dancers don't seek you out to dance with then it probably isn't to do with if you are good or bad. It is most likely that they have discovered that you don't care enough about what you are doing to put any effort into thinking about what you do and making it better.

Ladies tell me that they would rather an man know a small number of moves as long as he can do them well. As a leader I don't care at what stage I find a followers skill level and long as they ask questions (not just of me) and try to improve.

If you don't ask you cannot find what you are doing wrong.

If you don't know what you are doing wrong you can't correct it.

If you don't DO anything to correct an error you are destined to repeat the error forever.

I used to ask experienced follwers to dance with me and tell me at the end if there was anything that I was doing wrong and how I could correct it. Now I have a permanent partner that tells me at once without the need to ask.

I like what you're saying, but please don't think that because someone doesn't ask questions of you that she hasn't gained from the experience of dancing with you or isn't keen to improve. I definitely want to improve and know that I sometimes miss leads ... but won't always ask questions. I know that I need to keep dancing on a weekly basis and get more from lead and follow lessons. These lessons are often the way I discover how and why I miss leads ... and how not to do that again. Sometimes I ask questions (usually about the lead I missed), but not often - it can take away from the joy of social dancing.

I danced with Sheepie on Sunday and didn't ask anything, but was hugely aware that he gave so many things in his lead (shoulder wriggles, hip wiggles etc that I could respond to) and room to play. I think it was the first time we had danced together and I was concentrating on not completely missing his primary lead (where I was heading on the floor) that he got little in the way of response from me on the secondary or deeper things, but it certainly wasn't wasted. I know it was there and it makes me excited at dancing with such a generous lead again.

DavidB
21st-December-2004, 02:00 PM
I'm not exactly known for excessive movements, so wasting energy bouncing my hand up and down is not really my style.

But I also find it a strange concept. If a lady is dancing out of time, it is because her body is moving at the wrong time. So why try to communicate this by moving just the hand in the one direction that she will ignore? A side-to-side movement makes far more sense. Better still is a twisting lead, such as arm-jive.

But the most important question when the lady is dancing out of time - are you sure it is her?

David

Rhythm King
21st-December-2004, 02:21 PM
Well some of them do, but I agree it's not that common. I carry a wet haddock specifically for the purpose of beating beginners that bounce their hands. Mostly it isn't needed, though, since a friendly "do that again and i'll slap you with this wet haddock" usually suffices :devil:



And all this time I thought it was your aftershave - "Poisson" by Dior isn't it?

ChrisA
21st-December-2004, 02:22 PM
Ah, so that's why you wear those black trousers with the zip-off pockets! :)
Exactly. The pockets are more often than not being washed - haddock tends not to smell too good after it's been hanging around for a week or two.

:innocent:

ChrisA
21st-December-2004, 02:22 PM
And all this time I thought it was your aftershave - "Poisson" by Dior isn't it?
There are other uses for wet haddocks, you know...

:devil:

Chef
21st-December-2004, 02:29 PM
I like what you're saying, but please don't think that because someone doesn't ask questions of you that she hasn't gained from the experience of dancing with you or isn't keen to improve. I definitely want to improve and know that I sometimes miss leads ... but won't always ask questions. I know that I need to keep dancing on a weekly basis and get more from lead and follow lessons. These lessons are often the way I discover how and why I miss leads ... and how not to do that again. Sometimes I ask questions (usually about the lead I missed), but not often - it can take away from the joy of social dancing.

I danced with Sheepie on Sunday and didn't ask anything, but was hugely aware that he gave so many things in his lead (shoulder wriggles, hip wiggles etc that I could respond to) and room to play. I think it was the first time we had danced together and I was concentrating on not completely missing his primary lead (where I was heading on the floor) that he got little in the way of response from me on the secondary or deeper things, but it certainly wasn't wasted. I know it was there and it makes me excited at dancing with such a generous lead again.

Dear Feeling Pink

Please don't get the impression that I feel that if someone doesn't ask me questions then I would feel they do not care about their dance (I thought I had made that clear anyway). What you reveal from above is that you care enough about your dance to ask yourself "am I doing anything wrong", and "why did I miss that lead". Asking anyone, even yourself, the question is the first step in finding a solution. You also reveal that you go to technique classes (lead and follow lessons) which shows (to others in that class) that you have an interest in improving. I do understand that asking questions can take away from the joy of dancing but dancing badly can also take away from the joy of dancing.

Your huge plus point is that you recognise when something goes astray in dance, you enquire, and you take steps (or lessons) to correct it. You are taking your responsibilities to your partner seriously. That is all anyone could want and one of the points I had hoped I had made (I am a scientist so english is not my first language).

You made an excellent choice by dancing with Sheepman, as I am told he is an excellent lead. You also recognised that this was an opportunity to learn something that you wanted to learn. Others may have approached the opportunity as just another person to fall off balance near and they need someone nearby to catch them.

It is never a persons skill level that I would applaud. It would be their attitude towards their partner (my partner deserves the best I can give).

By the way - A message to Andy and Martin. I don't understand this negative rep thing (fairly new to the forum). If you dissagree with each other just say so in this public forum - state your case and win the argument by means of reasoning. There is little point being in a public forum if there is going to be sniping behind the scenes.

ChrisA
21st-December-2004, 02:33 PM
By the way - A message to Andy and Martin. I don't understand this negative rep thing (fairly new to the forum). If you dissagree with each other just say so in this public forum - state your case and win the argument by means of reasoning. There is little point being in a public forum if there is going to be sniping behind the scenes.
Agreed.

Have some rep :rofl:

Yogi_Bear
21st-December-2004, 02:52 PM
J

Some others really care about the dance and how it feels and how it makes them feel. For them the dancing experience is important both for them and their partners. These are the people that take notes, that take time out of the line up to have a closer look at the teacher, that practice moves away from the social dance floor, that ask the teacher questions during and after the lesson. These people take their responsibiilities to their partners very seriously and hope for and expect the same in return. It is no fun for these people who are striving to dance well for both themselves and their partners to find the same people yanking their arm off year after year.
.
an excellent post. This part, at least, is what I always try to achieve.
yb

Andy McGregor
21st-December-2004, 02:59 PM
By the way - A message to Andy and Martin. I don't understand this negative rep thing (fairly new to the forum). If you dissagree with each other just say so in this public forum - state your case and win the argument by means of reasoning. There is little point being in a public forum if there is going to be sniping behind the scenes.
:yeah:

Have some rep.

bigdjiver
21st-December-2004, 05:33 PM
... Bad habits are learned from others (good ones are as well) and practice does not make perfect - it makes permanent. So it is important that good habits are instilled from day one and bad habits are not introduced....
The bad habits may have been learned outside MJ.


Some others really care about the dance and how it feels and how it makes them feel. For them the dancing experience is important both for them and their partners. If my partners smile says "10" I am happy.
I remember cartoon where a fight scene is portrayed as a cloud of dust with arms and legs sticking out of it at all angles. If my partner was to dance like that, and the track is right for it, that is how I dance it, and just enjoy dancing for the joy of it. I do not care what any sort of judges view of us is. I know I could not bear to sit through a track like that.


...If you don't DO anything to correct an error you are destined to repeat the error forever...

For more normal music, where dancing badly is reducing the enjoyment of the dance for my partner, though she may not know it, then I will try and correct her, either subtly, or by direct instruction. Where safety is an issue it will be direct instruction. and I have, on rare ocassion, taken partners off the floor to do it.



I used to ask experienced followers to dance with me and tell me at the end if there was anything that I was doing wrong and how I could correct it. Now I have a permanent partner that tells me at once without the need to ask I am always experimenting, so I often ask partners, at any level, if there was anything they did not like in the dance.

MartinHarper
21st-December-2004, 06:38 PM
Fine wine, malt whisky, ballet, opera, art (not that I know anything about most of these): once you develop a taste for something, and start learning how much there is to it, you can never go back.

You get fussier, more discerning, people start seeing you as elitist :devil: - it all goes with the territory. And the high that was easily achievable before becomes more elusive.

I can see how a wine buff might turn up her nose at Budweiser, just as a dance god turns up her nose at dancing with someone with a "naff" hand bouce. As you say, inevitable. Still, as the wine buff comes to enjoy fine wines, she is still capable of drinking a pint of Budweiser, without it making her physically ill. The same doesn't seem to apply to some highly experienced dancers, who seem to find dancing with folks with bad habits not just emotionally uninspiring, but physically painful.

Feelingpink
21st-December-2004, 06:43 PM
... as the wine buff comes to enjoy fine wines, she is still capable of drinking a pint of Budweiser, without it making her physically ill. The same doesn't seem to apply to some highly experienced dancers, who seem to find dancing with folks with bad habits not just emotionally uninspiring, but physically painful.

Hmm, depends on how many pints you have :whistle:

jivecat
22nd-December-2004, 10:39 AM
Lordy, you're not talking about me, are you, Martin??


.....a dance god turns up her nose.... [?QUOTE]

Yeehah!

[QUOTE].....highly experienced dancer.......

:rofl: :rofl:
Can I put this in my CV?

Wait until you meet me before judging me. And I'll do the same for you.
:flower:

ChrisA
22nd-December-2004, 10:45 AM
I can see how a wine buff might turn up her nose at Budweiser, just as a dance god turns up her nose at dancing with someone with a "naff" hand bouce. As you say, inevitable. Still, as the wine buff comes to enjoy fine wines, she is still capable of drinking a pint of Budweiser, without it making her physically ill. The same doesn't seem to apply to some highly experienced dancers, who seem to find dancing with folks with bad habits not just emotionally uninspiring, but physically painful.

Well you either didn't read, or didn't consider for some other reason, my comment to the effect that:


It's not the bouncing in itself that causes pain, it's more the frustration resulting from the lack of subtlety in the connection that I don't like.

But bouncers are also quite frequently yankers... and even minor yanking is tiring over time. Especially the sort where the lady's balance is not maintained during turns, resulting in a hard sideways pull against me as she tries to remain upright. Since this pulls me off balance, I find that it aggravates a tendon injury I have at the side of my knee.

There's no point having this discussion if you're going to take things out of context.

Chris

MartinHarper
22nd-December-2004, 10:55 AM
Lordy, you're not talking about me, are you, Martin?

Nope. Just talking generally, didn't have anyone specific in mind for either my hypothetical dance god or my hypothetical wine buff. There are several folks on forum who've commented that they find certain bad habits to cause pain, and I've heard a few dancers off-forum make similar comments. In general, I tend to hear such comments predominantly from better dancers.

It does make me wonder. Is there some element(s) of good technique that leaves one physically vulnerable? Is it simply that better dancers spend so much more time dancing that they are more sensitive to certain strains and stresses? Is it that better dancers have picked up more dance-related injuries? Is it something else entirely?

Chef
22nd-December-2004, 12:02 PM
There are several folks on forum who've commented that they find certain bad habits to cause pain, and I've heard a few dancers off-forum make similar comments. In general, I tend to hear such comments predominantly from better dancers.

It does make me wonder. Is there some element(s) of good technique that leaves one physically vulnerable? Is it simply that better dancers spend so much more time dancing that they are more sensitive to certain strains and stresses? Is it that better dancers have picked up more dance-related injuries? Is it something else entirely?

It is probably true that what one may consider to be the better dancers have gotten that way by dancing a lot and regularly. I don't think that good technique makes a person vunerable to injury just that good techniques does not require much force because the use of minimum force allows more sublety. Going back to my phone conversation analogy - it is difficult to hear the background noises if someone is shouting down the phone at you. So if you are using a lead (or following one) that uses minimum force so that you are able to be responsive to the subleties and you are met by someone forceful you either get hurt by the violence of the encounter or you must respond with equal force in order to protect yourself.

If you say that "in general, I hear such comments from predominantly better dancers" then it is likely that a non bouncy, non forceful connection between two dancers is ONE of the characteristics of what you regard as better dancers.

It is a question of sensitivity. Once you are sensitive, it is easier to be hurt. Once you have experienced silk it is hard to be happy with sackcloth.

ChrisA
22nd-December-2004, 01:21 PM
It is a question of sensitivity. Once you are sensitive, it is easier to be hurt. Once you have experienced silk it is hard to be happy with sackcloth.
Beautifully put :flower:

What I want to know is, who is this guy Chef that arrives so recently and talks so much sense?

jivecat
22nd-December-2004, 01:36 PM
It does make me wonder. Is there some element(s) of good technique that leaves one physically vulnerable? Is it simply that better dancers spend so much more time dancing that they are more sensitive to certain strains and stresses? Is it that better dancers have picked up more dance-related injuries? Is it something else entirely?

I think that people who dance a lot i.e. 3 or more times a week, are more prone to injury, especially the more mature dancer. :tears:
But I think good technique e.g. balance, smoothness, economy of movement, relaxed lead/follow help to protect against injury.
My worst injuries occurred when I was doing wild, uncontrolled, off-balance spins, with partners who also had poor technique.

baldrick
22nd-December-2004, 08:11 PM
It does make me wonder. Is there some element(s) of good technique that leaves one physically vulnerable? Is it simply that better dancers spend so much more time dancing that they are more sensitive to certain strains and stresses? Is it that better dancers have picked up more dance-related injuries? Is it something else entirely?
An opinion, as leaders improve thet use less muscle strenth to lead with, more skill hopefuly. This in turn leaves them open to being overpowered by a follow who "drives" against the leader.

bigdjiver
22nd-December-2004, 10:35 PM
There are repetitive injuries associated with excessive dancing. There are books about ballet associated injuries, including those caused by repetitive strain.

Andreas
22nd-December-2004, 11:34 PM
But I also find it a strange concept. If a lady is dancing out of time, it is because her body is moving at the wrong time. So why try to communicate this by moving just the hand in the one direction that she will ignore? A side-to-side movement makes far more sense. Better still is a twisting lead, such as arm-jive.

:yeah:


But the most important question when the lady is dancing out of time - are you sure it is her?

Who else? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :whistle: :whistle:

Andy McGregor
22nd-December-2004, 11:49 PM
Beautifully put :flower:

What I want to know is, who is this guy Chef that arrives so recently and talks so much sense?

A well known Nigel impersonator with the strength of 10 Nigels :waycool:

Lory
23rd-December-2004, 12:41 AM
What I want to know is, who is this guy Chef that arrives so recently and talks so much sense?
I had the pleasure of having the last dance with him at Hipsters, after he'd entertained us so brillaint with his duet with Robert, doing the Nigel and Nina, Pink Panther routine! :clap: :cheers:
(I 'NOW' believe it IS true when people such as Chef say, drops are mainly to do with technique and NOT strength :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: Now here comes the question, how do I know if the guy has the technique, BEFORE I agree to a drop??? :rolleyes: )

Graham
23rd-December-2004, 02:21 AM
An opinion, as leaders improve thet use less muscle strenth to lead with, more skill hopefuly. This in turn leaves them open to being overpowered by a follow who "drives" against the leader.
I don't really see how a more skillful leader is more open to being overpowered. You cannot be injured if you relax - it stands to reason that if you are more skillful you will be able to avoid fighting your follower more easily than someone less skilled. In any case, I have noticed that I have developed considerably more upper body strength as a result of dancing than I used to have, despite the fact that with a reasonable follower I will now use virtually no strength to lead. So can someone explain how better leaders are more easily injured? Perhaps it's actually that the easily-injured become good leaders or give up!

bigdjiver
23rd-December-2004, 02:29 AM
... (I 'NOW' believe it IS true when people such as Chef say, drops are mainly to do with technique and NOT strength ...
I have had people tell me that Judo is more about technique than strength, but a perusal of the world champions indicates that the technique of being over 6ft tall has a lot to do with it. Having seen Darren drop Jill in the SCD training sessions I believe that, had he been stronger, or her lighter, he would not have dropped her. There would not be competitor weight classes in so many sports if it was just technique.

It is also difficult for the guy to know if the lady has the right technique. Some of them over-rate their ability too. Having strength to spare has helped me more than once, when technique would not have.

David Franklin
23rd-December-2004, 09:13 AM
I don't really see how a more skillful leader is more open to being overpowered. You cannot be injured if you relax - it stands to reason that if you are more skillful you will be able to avoid fighting your follower more easily than someone less skilled.Of course you can be injured if you relax! Suppose you stand still and I yank on your arm. At some point you reach the limit of your range of motion. If you are relaxed, the tension is now taken by your joints and ligaments; injury is much more likely than if you had kept some tension in your muscles and used them to absorb the force. Additionally, by keeping tension in your frame, I would have had more feedback telling me I was reaching that limit. In fact I'd say part of the skill of leading (or following) is controlling the level of tension to balance your partner. Of course, when your partner is randomly yanking, a beginner who used force to lead may actually be safer. :sick:

Dave

David Franklin
23rd-December-2004, 09:42 AM
I have had people tell me that Judo is more about technique than strength, but a perusal of the world champions indicates that the technique of being over 6ft tall has a lot to do with it. Having seen Darren drop Jill in the SCD training sessions I believe that, had he been stronger, or her lighter, he would not have dropped her. There would not be competitor weight classes in so many sports if it was just technique.But it is always different at the highest levels of competition; when everyone has good technique, the winner is usually the one who is strongest.

As far as Darren and Jill's fall - it looked like a technique issue to me, with her center ending up too far away from him. Granted, if she was lighter (or he heavier) you have more chance of saving the situation, but strength on it's own doesn't help much there.

It does depend on the move - I find the back-angel is very much technique rather than strength, yet I've had the experience of someone explaining to me at an airsteps class: "It's all very well David and Lily teaching the back-angel, when they have such a size difference - it's impossible for normal people". The amusing part was this person was a good two stone heavier than me, and his partner probably a stone lighter than Bryony. Conversely, I've found strength a much bigger factor in learning the angel.


Having strength to spare has helped me more than once, when technique would not have. :yeah: But the other side of that coin is that strength can allow you to do a move incorrectly, so you don't learn to do it properly. (Been there... :tears: ).

Dave

ChrisA
23rd-December-2004, 11:07 AM
In any case, I have noticed that I have developed considerably more upper body strength as a result of dancing than I used to have, despite the fact that with a reasonable follower I will now use virtually no strength to lead.

You're probably noticing correlation rather than cause here. You don't build strength other than by working muscles.

So if you're stronger then it's either because of

- something other than dancing,
- or you got stronger when you did use more force, and now either use less, or smaller proportion of your strength when dancing
- or something else.

It certainly isn't that you've built strength by using very light forces with the muscles that are now stronger.

Blimey, homeopathic strength training... I like the idea :whistle:



So can someone explain how better leaders are more easily injured? Perhaps it's actually that the easily-injured become good leaders or give up!
With respect, I think this is nonsense.

David's already touched on how relaxed joints are very easily injured - because the force is taken in the ligaments and the joint itself rather than the muscles.

If you're leading lightly, then you won't have the self-protective tension in your muscles, so I think you are likely to be more vulnerable.

But I'm perfectly capable of switching into "strong resistance" mode - I just choose not to, wherever possible.

Chris

Graham
23rd-December-2004, 11:29 AM
Okay, now I understand why we're seeing it differently. To clarify, my strength has been increased in exactly the manner you suggest - I use sufficient muscular strength to balance the tension of my partner, so when dancing with a yanker I am using lots of tension, but revert to a lighter touch with a better follower. However when I say relax, I really did mean relax - if I realised that my muscles were insufficient to cope with the force being used by my follower I could simply stop trying, and then when the follower got to the end of the "spring", rather than stretching my ligaments the follower would simply "fall off" the end of my arm. Occasionally you get someone who is both a yanker and a gripper, but even then you can just change your lead so that they have nothing to hold on to. I agree that if you continue trying to lead someone with much less tension than they're using then you're likely to get hurt in the way you describe - what I was questioning was why an advanced dancer would do so.

Chef
23rd-December-2004, 01:39 PM
(I 'NOW' believe it IS true when people such as Chef say, drops are mainly to do with technique and NOT strength :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: Now here comes the question, how do I know if the guy has the technique, BEFORE I agree to a drop??? :rolleyes: )

Hello Lory. I will address this question before I go on to say something about the other points that have come up on this thread.

I have asked my partner about this and she says that if a guy has the technique and attention to detail in the rest of his dance she trusts that this same attention to detail will also be put into doing drops. The first time she is quite tentative but if that goes well then she fully commits to the drop. She also knows that there are many things that she can do to protect herself in terms of having places on the man that she is holding onto (sometimes with nails if the guy tries to fling her into one without her permission). In this way she builds up and "approved list" of people that she trusts.

For myself I always ask a new partner for permission to do a drop and start with something conservative so that we can both gain an idea of each others characterisics. I also put them in in logical places in the music so that the lady has a reasonable expectation of where the forwarned drop is going to be. Finally there is a point just before we go into the drop where I can use my left hand to force an abort of the move if things are not right at that point or the womans head would be moving into an area that has just become occupied. The best way is to always work together off the dance floor to work out what we expect from each other, spell out what safety features are in place, the points where the move could be aborted and by this method build up the confidence in each other. Drops and lifts are moves with a very high potential for injury to both parties and deserve great resepct in planning.

On to othe points. Being a big bloke (bigger around the middle that I would like) partners have confidence in me that I have the strength to tackle drops and lifts. I have found during the excellent teaching of Andy and Rena, the Barkers, and Peter Phillips drops lessons that having a reserve of strength is really handy to get you out of trouble when you have mucked it up. When you have got the technique then the strength requirement is minimal. This was the origional inspiration for me doing airsteps with Robert. In tems of lean mass we are of equal weight and I can tell you that any lack of technique is punished mercillessly.

Back to the subject of hand bouncing. Pretty much everything I wanted to say on this I have said in an earlier post and I feel most of the answers to Grahams questions are there. I do get hand yankers and bouncers even still and I refuse to meet them with force since I don't believe pandering to them would help me (my shoulders are already big enough) or them. When they have pulled out all the arm that I have and used up all the force I am prepared to offer my hooked fingers let go. It is the nicest way that I know of sending the signal "up with this I will not put". The last thing I would want to do is to humiliate someone on the dance floor. I know everyone has to learn but if dancing is not smooth and effortless then it is not right. I travelled a long way and paid good money to have a good time. I know two ladies that I personally like and know have been dancing twice weekly for the last eight years that still try to yank me around. I love them dearly but can only stand one dance a night with them (I particularly hate the "grab both his middle fingers tightly, do one and a half turns and then try to fall out of the fire exit move" which I find extemely painful.