PDA

View Full Version : Competitions:Ideas for rule changes



ChrisA
18th-December-2004, 05:46 PM
I agree that a change in the rules is needed. But who can agree what the change should be? :innocent:

A good question. Doubtless the MJDA, when it comes into existence, will be a democratic institution :innocent:

So let's have a little dry run...

ChrisA
18th-December-2004, 06:32 PM
By the way....

... one question I've avoided, since I couldn't word it concisely enough to represent in the poll options is what you do when one partner is hugely more experienced than the other.

The Andy/Lynn (Britroc) example comes to mind, cos it would be a great shame if such a combination were made illegal. However, that was very clear-cut IMHO - there would be lots of cases where, for example, someone who regularly competed at Advanced danced with an Intermediate finalist, made an awesome couple, and weren't Intermediate at all in combination.

Anyway, enjoy the poll.

Chris

ChrisA
19th-December-2004, 11:02 PM
Hey y'all... just refreshing this thread a bit, cos maybe lots of people that hang out on the forum do so mostly during the week... but I'd really like to get an idea of what people's views on this really are.

We've had so much, ahem, discussion, on this topic over the last nine months or so, I think it would be good to get a representative set of votes on the subject.

Probably among the first few items on the agenda of the first MJDA meeting, :wink: so let's get some views in.

Chris

Lory
19th-December-2004, 11:10 PM
Can you clarify what you mean, I'm confused, (I'm not a comp buff) is this how is is at the moment?........Placed? Then move up - at an equivalent level competition or lower, if so, what could the alternatives be?

ChrisA
19th-December-2004, 11:15 PM
Can you clarify what you mean, I'm confused, (I'm not a comp buff) is this how is is at the moment?........Placed? Then move up - at an equivalent level competition or lower, if so, what could the alternatives be?
Placed = 1st, 2nd, or 3rd.

The impression I got last time this was a hot topic was that it would be a bit harsh on someone placing, say at Intermediate, in a regional comp (eg Bristol, Scotland) to expect them to have to move up to Advanced at Blackpool or Hammersmith (maybe even Britroc).

So national comps, eg Blackpool, Hammersmith, if you place in either, the suggestion is, move up to the next category, either this season or next (there's some valid debate to be had there IMHO). But place in a regional comp, it's still Ok to stay at that level in the nationals.

By the same token, place at Blackpool at Intermediate, what on earth are you doing in the Intermediates any more at Bristol?

Hope this is clearer.

Cx

PS Still think there's a question over mixed-experience couples. I'm inclining towards Andy's view, but not convinced yet.

ChrisA
19th-December-2004, 11:32 PM
is this how is is at the moment?
Sorry, I realise I might not have answered this.

No, it's not how it is at the moment.

At the moment, it's a complete mess, IMHO, with no consistency from one comp to another.

At Blackpool, teachers and pros (whatever that is) are excluded from the Intermediates - so Clayton & Janine could enter at Intermediate. How ridiculous is that??? :rolleyes:

At one of the Leroc comps, you mustn't have actually won, if you want to enter at any level except Open, but I think that still lets lots of Advanced dancers technically enter at Intermediate.

Can't remember what the rule is at Hammersmith, but it's yet another variant. Teachers are excluded from everything except the Open, but why should that be - lots of teachers aren't necessarily better than lots of non-teachers.

Just needs a lot of sorting out, IMHO.

Chris

Lory
19th-December-2004, 11:37 PM
By the same token, place at Blackpool at Intermediate, what on earth are you doing in the Intermediates any more at Bristol?

Hope this is clearer.


It's clearer BUT the answer's thrown up another question... It's now become apparent that each competition has different kudos, e.g. The Blackpool intermediate is equivalent to the Bristol advanced?

How is someone new to comps supposed to know this?

Is there a commonly recognised 'best competition' to win?

Can someone write a list and grade the main comps, starting with the cream of the crop, (presumably the Jivemasters)? :flower:

Lynn
19th-December-2004, 11:43 PM
I'm not totally sure about the 'placed and move up' bit - so someone comes 3rd in Intermediate - if they aren't 'good enough' to win the Intermediate then how would they feel about next time competing at a higher level? I think that even if someone was placed they should continue to be allowed to re-enter at that level for a period of time, say 1 year, before having to move up. If they are not placed again in another comp during that time, they maybe could be allowed to remain at that level? On the other hand 'win' and move up makes more sense as they are the best at that level so should move up.

Don't agree with the 'teachers' rule - someone can be a competent dancer and an excellent communicator - they would make a great teacher but not nessecarily be at the top level for competions. OK, sorry, this has all been said before I know, but just wanted to put my view in - with all my extensive competition experience of course! :rofl:

ChrisA
19th-December-2004, 11:52 PM
I'm not totally sure about the 'placed and move up' bit - so someone comes 3rd in Intermediate - if they aren't 'good enough' to win the Intermediate then how would they feel about next time competing at a higher level?

Well, speaking personally - totally intimidated !!!!

But for me it's more about how I would feel staying at Intermediate - and the answer is - completely hypocritical, no matter how ill-equipped I might feel about the prospect of doing well at the next level up.



I think that even if someone was placed they should continue to be allowed to re-enter at that level for a period of time, say 1 year, before having to move up. If they are not placed again in another comp during that time, they maybe could be allowed to remain at that level? On the other hand 'win' and move up makes more sense as they are the best at that level so should move up.
Yep, a very valid view, and worthy of a lot more debate than it's had. But there won't be a resolution of this finer point until the coarser issues have been dealt with properly, I reckon.



Don't agree with the 'teachers' rule - someone can be a competent dancer and an excellent communicator - they would make a great teacher but not nessecarily be at the top level for competions.

..... :yeah:

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 12:00 AM
Can someone write a list and grade the main comps, starting with the cream of the crop, (presumably the Jivemasters)? :flower:

I'll have a stab...

Blackpool
Hammersmith
Britroc
Bristol & Scotland

This order relates to dancer calibre only - not to other things like music, venue and organisation. For my money, Bristol and Britroc take the prize this year, with Blackpool next and Hammersmith an awful last.

(though I can't comment on Scotland really, since I wasn't there this year.)

Not entirely sure where the Jivemasters fits in. It's invitation only, so slightly different. And it's marked by the audience, which is different again.

And in, hopefully, a small minority of cases, members of the audience aren't clear on the difference in the levels of musical interpretation between a dance competition and a telephone directory :innocent:

Certainly if you place in Jivemasters I think it would be outrageous to see you in the Intermediates anywhere. But I wouldn't want to go too far down that road.

Still clear as mud?

Chris

Andy McGregor
20th-December-2004, 12:33 AM
Vaguely worded mish-mash? :confused:

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 01:06 AM
Vaguely worded mish-mash? :confused:
Don't understand the relevance.

We're talking about eligibility to enter, not how the judging should be done.

:confused: :confused:

Jive Brummie
20th-December-2004, 01:20 AM
I love the competition discussions...

The way I see it is (FWIW),

Place at a national, Blackpool / Hammersmith...move up. That applies to the 2nd and 3rd placers too. The standard of intermediate dancer is going through the roof. At the end of the day, the difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd place could be a few points, so why should the person who comes first feel any less intimidated than the runners up when it comes to moving up a level?

Mixed ability couples...hmmmmm, tricky one. Gut reaction says that you should compete at the level of the better/more experienced dancer. Just personnal opinion though.

James :cheers:

Lory
20th-December-2004, 01:57 AM
Mixed ability couples...hmmmmm, tricky one. Gut reaction says that you should compete at the level of the better/more experienced dancer. Just personnal opinion though.

James :cheers:How about just going on the 'leaders' level?

Dazzle
20th-December-2004, 04:52 AM
IMHO the answer to this post can very much depend on where you are coming from.

I have to enter the Advanced at Blackpool because I have just become an Instructor. I have never competed before and would have preferred to have entered the Intermediate section to test the competition waters.

I think the time you have been dancing is as poor an indicator as many of the others. I have danced with dancers who have been dancing for 2 years and they have been of a lower standard than someone else who has been dancing 12 months. It depends on your natrural ability and dancing frequency and exposure.

Maybe the experience of competition should be an indicator to the level entered? How do we prove this other than remembering names and faces? Maybe the MJDA (or whatever it may be if at all) could implement a competition passport that lists your past attempts and successes. This would then be used to determine your entry level?

An administrative nightmare? Blue Sky view?

Gus
20th-December-2004, 09:08 AM
The standard of intermediate dancer is going through the roof. ....This is an interesting point. Helen and I came 4th in the UK Champs in 2002. Two and a half years on an objective view was that we would be hard pressed to get placed in the Intermediates. This is a factor that we don’t have the time to get any dance time in AND the fact that the standard of dancing has raised considerably. IF we weren’t teachers ... would we allowed to drop down to a competition that suited our current dance standard? Comparison ... I was once 1st kyu grade in karate .... returning to the sport 10 years on I would not expect to start wearing a brown belt again ... I'd expect to have to go through regarding until I got a belt that reflected my current status.

Are you assessing; the standard of someone’s dancing against their current performance, against the couples performance, or against the level of their experience .... i.e. should a couple be allowed to compete at intermediates just because they couldn't be bothered to put in all the hard work necessary to get them up to standard?

Further thought....... all the above questions are TOTALLY irrelevant until someone managed to state categorically what is the purpose of the intermediate category"!!

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 09:51 AM
Further thought....... all the above questions are TOTALLY irrelevant until someone managed to state categorically what is the purpose of the intermediate category"!!
I find this question surprising.

Why should the purpose of the Intermediates be different from the purpose of the Advanced, or even the Open, for that matter?

It's a competition to give dancers at the respective levels the opportunity to be judged relative to one another. They're seeking to improve, to gain confidence, approval, respect, kudos if they do well... even if they don't actually win.

At least the majority take it this way. Some people choose to make it into an opportunity for a p1ss-about - usually it's a comedy performance of some kind, just not a good enough one to enter as a showcase, but hopefully this kind of thing will remain in the minority.

Chris

Gus
20th-December-2004, 10:17 AM
I find this question surprising.

Why should the purpose of the Intermediates be different from the purpose of the Advanced, or even the Open, for that matter?I think your comments prove that the question has not yet been answered. Advanced/Open is to find the best dancers. What is intermediate for ... to find the best dancers who arent as good the the best dancers? :confused: Is it to give a section for those who arent as experinced as the top competitors, is it just a section so that the organisers can take more money, is it a stepping stone? etc. etc. If it is so that dnacers can compete at their 'own' level then it is obviously incorrect to have dancers competing in more than one section.

This subject was covered previously in last years debate .. but was never adequalty answered (IMHO). Until you can state categoricaly what the purpose of the division system is then you cant define the rules for allowing/disallowing entry.

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 10:44 AM
I think your comments prove that the question has not yet been answered. Advanced/Open is to find the best dancers. What is intermediate for ... to find the best dancers who arent as good the the best dancers? :confused: Is it to give a section for those who arent as experinced as the top competitors, is it just a section so that the organisers can take more money, is it a stepping stone? etc. etc.

This is just semantic quibbling, though. You might just as well use the same arguments to support a suggestion that the Olympics (including heats for it perhaps) should be the only athletics competition.

My definition includes all of the above though, I would contend. With an intermediate section, lots of people will get involved in competitions that wouldn't if they always had to compete against Clayton and Janine etc; finding the 'best' at Intermediate is, for those in that category, just as exciting as finding the best at the higher levels. For some it's a stepping stone, for others they'll always be at that level. It doesn't matter.

What matters is that since the majority take it seriously and work hard, they shouldn't be put off by the p1ss-takers (although there is an argument as DavdB put it, that the p1ss-takers don't usually do very well), and they shouldn't have to be up against people that make it pointless for them to be there.


If it is so that dnacers can compete at their 'own' level then it is obviously incorrect to have dancers competing in more than one section.

Well I certainly agree that the same couple shouldn't compete in more than one category.


This subject was covered previously in last years debate .. but was never adequalty answered (IMHO). Until you can state categoricaly what the purpose of the division system is then you cant define the rules for allowing/disallowing entry.
I don't really see the need to connect purpose with eligibility, since the purpose, although not precisely defined, is broad enough to suit most people except the second rate comedy acts, I think. And even they're not explicitly banned.

Chris

Gus
20th-December-2004, 11:10 AM
This is just semantic quibbling, though. .....My definition includes all of the above though, I would contend. Sorry ... but I dont think I'm "quibbling". My central point was that a defintion deosn not exist ... i.e. the organisers have not explicitly stated why those categories are there. You have provided a good working defintion and listed a number of reasons for such a division ... but this list is not exclusive and the entrants may have a very different view. If there was a single definiton of what the purpose of the categories are then some of the grey areas would be removed and we would have to find another topic to needlessly argue about :wink:

Will
20th-December-2004, 11:25 AM
I'll have a stab...

Blackpool
Hammersmith
Britroc
Bristol & Scotland

This order relates to dancer calibre only - not to other things like music, venue and organisation.

At the risk of getting lynched by the usual suspects, I have to say that in terms of dance calibre, Hammersmith still has the edge over Blackpool. Please note that I'm not commenting on venue, judging, organisation or anything else. But the fact is the average standard in the Ceroc champs is always higher, simply because it is based in London which is where the highest concentration of advanced dancers is. Hammersmith also the comp where you are likely to run into the top Aussie couples when they decide to come over to compete.

Now come on Gus, tell me I'm wrong :wink:

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 11:29 AM
Sorry ... but I dont think I'm "quibbling". My central point was that a defintion deosn not exist ... i.e. the organisers have not explicitly stated why those categories are there. You have provided a good working defintion and listed a number of reasons for such a division ... but this list is not exclusive and the entrants may have a very different view. If there was a single definiton of what the purpose of the categories are then some of the grey areas would be removed and we would have to find another topic to needlessly argue about :wink:

Well, ok, the list may not be exclusive. But apart from people that like to turn it into an oppotunity for a comedy p1ss-about, what actual other reasons that I've missed make the discussion pointless?

AFAICS, it all boils down to a sense of unfairness about some people entering a category that a significant number think is too low for them, thus opening up potential accusations of trophy hunting.

And because not all people's sense of fair play is the same, you have to have rules. I don't see that a discussion of what the rules should be can't happen independently of some global definition of purpose.

David Franklin
20th-December-2004, 11:36 AM
This post to be taken as ODA - I don't actually disagree this strongly, but think the opposing view needs to be aired...


This is just semantic quibbling, though. You might just as well use the same arguments to support a suggestion that the Olympics (including heats for it perhaps) should be the only athletics competition.Sorry, but I don't see the parallel - what's the athletics equivalent of an intermediate competition? The athletics 'hierarchy' seems organised on geographic regions (i.e. local, regional, national, international competitions), rather than by ability or competition experience.


My definition includes all of the above though, I would contend. With an intermediate section, lots of people will get involved in competitions that wouldn't if they always had to compete against Clayton and Janine etc; finding the 'best' at Intermediate is, for those in that category, just as exciting as finding the best at the higher levels.But over 90% of the intermediates have no chance of placing whether or not Clayton and Janine etc. are there. If the goal is to have a serious chance, the intermediate category is already a very intimidating category (and is only going to get more so). But if the goal is just to "get out there and compete", why not get rid of all the arguments and just have one category open to everyone? And in showcase, whatever your level, you have to compete against Clayton & Janine, Adam & Tas, Will and Kate. So why can't we have an intermediate showcase as well? (Because I just know everyone would love another 10 showcases to sit through... :devil: )

Maybe in a sense we do need something like the olympics - if we had more local competitions, then the "intermediate" dancers could get a sense of accomplishment, and the fact that they then go out in the 1st round of the national competition wouldn't be a problem.


What matters is that since the majority take it seriously and work hard, they shouldn't be put off by the p1ss-takers (although there is an argument as DavdB put it, that the p1ss-takers don't usually do very well), and they shouldn't have to be up against people that make it pointless for them to be there. Not sure what you mean by "pointless to be there". But stipulating you mean "leaving them with no chance of placing", suppose I come 4th; then I reckon those b**stards who danced better and came 1st,2nd and 3rd made it "pointless". Disqualify them, I say! Tell them they should enter advanced next time. Then I can win, win, WIN!. (There's never an evil laugh smiley when you need one :wink: ).

Dave

Andy McGregor
20th-December-2004, 11:43 AM
I'm with Gus on this one. There is no clearly defined purpose to the intermediate category. And until there is one it is impossible to say who is and isn't eligible. My own contention, for Blackpool, is that while the advanced is for professionals the intermediate should be for amateurs. Then the intermediate category would be there to select the best amateur dancer.

But, if this were to happen, the standard would go up in the lowest lowest category. This would result in people being put off entering their first competition as they would probably have no hope of getting very far.

So we would need a beginners category. And for that I rather like RobC's suggestion of dancers sticking to a list of moves that can be done.


What matters is that since the majority take it seriously and work hard, they shouldn't be put off by the p1ss-takers (although there is an argument as DavdB put it, that the p1ss-takers don't usually do very well), and they shouldn't have to be up against people that make it pointless for them to be there.

As one of the people ChrisA thinks of in this light I thought I'd mount a defence. It is only ChrisA's opinion that I take the p**s. IMHO I am entertaining and funny - and the last time I did it I came 4th the time before that I came 3rd, so the judges must agree with me and not ChrisA! Consider this, at the last Blackpool Competition I took the Intermediate relatively seriously, I spent well over £130 on clothes and wigs, spent about £120 on travel and accomodation. Paid £65 (I think) to get in and enter. That's over £300 to 'take the p**s' - it is completely untrue that I 'took the p**s, although some people might have felt intimidated. That decision to feel the way they felt was theirs, not mine, all I did was dress up, be entertaining and dance as well as I know how. I entered for fun and I entered to win. And I thought dressing the same as my partner and entering as twins would get us the maximum points for dress and presentation. Our dancing was exactly the same as it would have been if I'd entered in black as a Ceroc clone and I'd have received no points for presentation. All I needed to do was practice a bit more and we would have done better than 4th.

Will
20th-December-2004, 11:53 AM
It is only ChrisA's opinion that I take the p**s.Actually, it's mine too. Sorry. :blush:

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 11:58 AM
As one of the people ChrisA thinks of in this light I thought I'd mount a defence. It is only ChrisA's opinion that I take the p**s.

Of course it's my opinion. That's all I'm expressing it as. But I'm not the only one to hold it. And I completely respect the right of the judges to mark the couples as they see fit.


And I thought dressing the same as my partner and entering as twins would get us the maximum points for dress and presentation. Our dancing was exactly the same as it would have been if I'd entered in black as a Ceroc clone and I'd have received no points for presentation. All I needed to do was practice a bit more and we would have done better than 4th.
Your dancing sooooooooo is not the same when you're doing a comedy act - you ham it up, act camp, and dance completely differently from when you're taking it seriously. :flower:

And as I recall, you switched (rather tactically, it appeared, although I recall you were complaining about not having matching costumes for that final - I wonder why :innocent: ) to playing it completely straight for the final at Blackpool, and danced pretty well. And you had a pretty advanced partner, so you jolly well should have :D:D

Anyway, I'm not attacking your right to do things the way you do, I just don't like it, is all :flower:

Gus
20th-December-2004, 12:09 PM
At the risk of getting lynched by the usual suspects, I have to say that in terms of dance calibre, Hammersmith still has the edge over Blackpool...... Now come on Gus, tell me I'm wrong :wink:Hate to dissapoint ... I have in my hand a noose and many willing volunteers :wink:

You poor, poor lad. If you ever manage to prise yourself away from your Xbox and penetrate that barrier the Northeners erected (i.e. the M25) you would realise that the majority of life exists OUTSIDE London. How can anyone in London say they have more advanced dnacers .... anyone from "darn sarf" ever bothered to dance around up North? As for Hammersmith ..... was Viktor there? Rest my case :waycool:

The simple fact is, right or wrong, many people have abject contempt for Ceroc AND southern dance comps because they are seen as being biased to the local dancers (dont flame me ... just reporting facts). Most of my mob wouldnt complete at Ceroc for the two reasons just stated. Sooooooo if you want a true UK Champs then it has to be one which is independant, therefore Blackpool wins QED!

15 - 30 ? :wink:

Andy McGregor
20th-December-2004, 12:11 PM
And as I recall, you switched (rather tactically, it appeared, although I recall you were complaining about not having matching costumes for that final - I wonder why :innocent: )

About a fortnight before the competition Hollie had bought a nice pink outfit at Top Shop, she'd show it to me and sent me off to get one that matched. I looked in loads of Top Shops and couldn't find another one anywhere :tears:

I still think we would have got more marks if we'd worn matching outfits in the final. And, in hindsight we should both have dressed as identical men in white tie and tails.

As I said, people might think we're taking the p**s but that is all in their heads. What were we taking it out of? What were we saying? That we can win in women's clothing? I think we proved we couldn't :whistle:

Andy McGregor
20th-December-2004, 12:26 PM
Hate to disspoint ... I have in my hand a noose and many willing volunteers :wink:

You poor, poor lad. If you ever manage to prise yourself away from your Xbox and penetrate that barrier the Northeners erected (i.e. the M25) you would realise that teh majority of life exists OUTSIDE London. How can anyone in London say they have more advanced dnacers .... anyone from "darn sarf" ever bothered to dance around up North? As for Hammersmith ..... was Viktor there? Rest my case :waycool:

The simple fact is, right or wrong, many people have abject contempt for Ceroc AND southern dance comps because they are seen as being biased to the local dancers (dont flame me ... just reporting facts). Most of my mob wouldnt complete at Ceroc for the two reasons just stated. Sooooooo if you want a true UK Champs then it has to be one which is independant, therefore Blackpool wins QED!

I'm having a bad day, I'm nearly agreeing with Gus and disagreeing with Will. The standard at Blackpool and at Hammersmith was the same. The winners of the top level at both competitions were Clayton and Janine - it stands to reason that somebody would have beaten Clayton and Janine at Hammersmith if the standard had been higher than Blackpool.

I think the dancing at Blackpool was better to watch overall, there were more showcases and there were more group cabarets. However, I think the dancing in the Open at Hammersmith was far more spectacular than the Advanced at Blackpool - but that was because they allowed lifts and DavidB showed us the Doughnut*

*although looking at his waistline at the time* I think he'd already seen a few dougnuts :devil:

*of course he's much slimmer and better muscled nowadays :whistle:

DavidY
20th-December-2004, 01:48 PM
So why can't we have an intermediate showcase as well? (Because I just know everyone would love another 10 showcases to sit through... :devil: ).. or you could have a new showcase category, where everyone has to choreograph a routine to the same track (published a few months in advance). That way everyone can dance at the same time & you only have to sit through it once... :devil:

DavidY
20th-December-2004, 01:56 PM
I'm with Gus on this one. There is no clearly defined purpose to the intermediate category. And until there is one it is impossible to say who is and isn't eligible. My own contention, for Blackpool, is that while the advanced is for professionals the intermediate should be for amateurs. Then the intermediate category would be there to select the best amateur dancer.I agree but would put it the other way round -once you have some clearly defined criteria then the purpose is to be the best that matches the criteria.

The tricky bit is defining the criteria. :devil:

Chef
20th-December-2004, 03:06 PM
How is this for a different idea.

A fixed period during which you can compete at a certain level.

Steal from the world of ballroom competitions. The B&L world has a series of graded exams, which after you pass one level you are allowed to compete at that level for a fixed period of time (one year). After that time you either have to stop competing or pass the next level of exam which moves you up to the next level of competions.

The moves allowed within each level are defined so there is no point trying to dazzle the judges. All you have to do are those moves that are allowed but do them well. The MJ world doesn't have the structure for exams to be set and assesed but the idea of a time limit in a certain category could be possible. It might stop people who have been dancing for 9 months finding themselves up against people that have been for dancing 5 years or more.

You can take as long as you like to take and pass the exam but once you have then the clock starts ticking.

What do you think?

Lory
20th-December-2004, 03:10 PM
I've only ever been to 1 comp and that was only to the evening, maybe the forum's given me an aversion to them :wink: :rofl:

But couldn't there be separate 'fun' category, judged solely on entertainment value and costumes, etc.

The couple who entertained the most, wins! No rules?

No-one could get cross about it then, could they? :devil:

stewart38
20th-December-2004, 03:14 PM
The simple fact is, right or wrong, many people have abject contempt for Ceroc AND southern dance comps because they are seen as being biased to the local dancers (dont flame me ... just reporting facts). Most of my mob wouldnt complete at Ceroc for the two reasons just stated. Sooooooo if you want a true UK Champs then it has to be one which is independant, therefore Blackpool wins QED!

15 - 30 ? :wink:

Does anyone have the 'facts' ie where the last 10 dancers in each catergory were from ? I thought a few were from Aussie land ?

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 03:58 PM
The couple who entertained the most, wins! No rules?

No-one could get cross about it then, could they? :devil:
Fab idea.

Would there ever be more than one entrant, though?

:innocent:

Zuhal
20th-December-2004, 08:58 PM
Slightly off topic

Personally I am not good enough to enter a competion but I enjoy the fun of a DWAS. I have every sympathy with Andy for having his votes counted wrongly. As part of that heat I was probably the beneficiary of the error, though had no part in it. :devil: Thanks

The DWAS is a bit of fun but it is also a first step for lots of average dancers. If all the main competition entrants enter the DWAS, the Male Leaders will displace some budding beginner. Does that make them feel good!

Zuhal

ChrisA
21st-December-2004, 10:43 AM
The DWAS is a bit of fun but it is also a first step for lots of average dancers. If all the main competition entrants enter the DWAS, the Male Leaders will displace some budding beginner. Does that make them feel good!

I think DWAS is a bit different. It's not a beginners competition as such - it's where dancers of all levels mix it up together, and IMHO this is a positive thing.

If a 'budding beginner', as you put it :flower: , gets one of the more experienced competition dancers, it should be a positive experience if the experienced dancer has the right attitude.

Chris

DavidB
21st-December-2004, 11:29 AM
The DWAS is a bit of fun but it is also a first step for lots of average dancers. If all the main competition entrants enter the DWAS, the Male Leaders will displace some budding beginner. Does that make them feel good!Would you prefer the DWAS to have Intermediate, Advanced and Open sections as well?

Personally I would like it if there was one competition like this, as I think it would make a nice change. I know several people who don't do DWAS because they are afraid of drawing one of the top dancers. And others who can't see the point, because it always seems to be the same few leaders doing well. (Maybe we should have a separate section just for Sherif and Roger!)
But I wouldn't want all of them to take this approach, because I also like the existing format as well. There are people who do DWAS just in the hope of drawing one of the top dancers!

Mary
21st-December-2004, 01:03 PM
Thought I would take a tremulous step into these murky waters, and add to the debate (or not as the case may be).

DWAS is also known as lucky dip in some comps. I have done a few comps now (as some forumites will know), but this category is the one that I consider to be the 'fun' category and not to be taken too seriously. I enter having no expectations whatsoever as I have no idea who I will be partnering or the standard. I have partnered some relative beginners who have never been to a competition before and succeeded in qualifying through a couple of rounds. They have always been very nervous (well, petrified actually) so I always enjoy trying to make them feel relaxed and have fun - if I succeed in this then I have a result. I have drawn experienced dancers and not made a final :sad: I guess this must say something about my standard of dancing. :sick:

I believe in Oz they have categories of DWAS - intermediate, advanced etc. Although this gets away from the pure fun/luck element it would serve to judge dancers on their standard of lead/follow abilities. This would require more specific judging of dance technique (gosh, is that a dirty word? :devil: ) Dancing with a 'stranger' and leading/following complex moves, some foortwork patterns, improvisation etc. and the odd 'flash' move. Or do people think this exists already? Just a thought.

I think I should add that I don't think this can be fairly judged in the existing Interdediate/Advanced categories as regular partners get used to each others way of dancing and can rehearse combinations of moves, or make difficult moves work because they know the move rather than the move being effectivley led and followed!

M

bigdjiver
21st-December-2004, 03:53 PM
For me DWAS, lucky dip, whatever, is is the fundamental of MJ, it is a fun dance, and as such should have no substantial prize attached. It is about anybody being able to dance with anybody though they have never danced together before. If I was promoting MJ it is a clip from that competition that I would show.

ChrisA
21st-December-2004, 05:28 PM
Thought I would take a tremulous step into these murky waters
Have some rep for the first forum use of the word "tremulous" !!

:rofl: :hug:

Mary
21st-December-2004, 06:13 PM
Have some rep for the first forum use of the word "tremulous" !!

:rofl: :hug:

Perhaps I'd better go and luck it up now.

M