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Andy McGregor
18th-December-2004, 11:36 AM
Perhaps it is time to dust off an old idea of Daisy's... and found the UK Modern Jive Dancers' Assiciation (or Federation) - a federation for dancers to have their own voice, separate from the teaching and competition organisations. The MJDA could lobby for things like transparent judging criteria, standardised categories (maybe even an accepted definition of beginner, intermediate and advanced). They could also organise a national league table of dancers with rankings, if people were interested in having one. They could represent the interests of all MJ dancers - maybe by providing information on dance-related matters (maybe a list of dance physio and other therapists), print cool t-shirts, negotiate discounts with dance events, and generally be good eggs...

OK, so I'm half joking, but I'm also half serious. I think dancers could benefit from having a voice, independently of the ceroc, leroc and other organisations. I particularly think that competitive dancers would benefit from having a voice in relation to the competition organisers - but we competitors are in a very small minority when compared with the number of MJ dancers in the UK. What do people think? If enough people think I'm not completely off my rocker, I could look into it further (look at what the BDF and other organisations do for their members).

I'm right behind La Diva on this :flower:

Feelingpink
18th-December-2004, 01:24 PM
I voted for the "all dancers" option because I think that having a lobbying & representative body that might help standardise competitions would help all dancers. As someone who has never taken part in a competition, I'm hugely unlikely to do so (especially based on recent posts). If there was some form of standardisation and a clear beginners' section, I might have a go in the future (as might others) and surely this would be a good thing (well, at least in the case of others). :blush:

ChrisA
18th-December-2004, 01:36 PM
I voted for the "all dancers" option because I think that having a lobbying & representative body that might help standardise competitions would help all dancers.

.... :yeah:

I agree. Anything that makes competitions fairer and more transparent will also make them more accessible.



As someone who has never taken part in a competition, I'm hugely unlikely to do so
Never say never !!!

These were almost exactly my words just one short year ago, and the bug has very definitely bitten :D



If there was some form of standardisation and a clear beginners' section, I might have a go in the future (as might others) and surely this would be a good thing (well, at least in the case of others). :blush:
Rather than beginners, you might like to consider the Intermediates section in one of the regional comps. They're nowhere near as intimidating as the Intermediates at Blackpool, and practising with a regular partner, taking part, maybe even getting through a round or two will bring a whole new dimension to dancing.

And the events are always a great laugh in any case, since you get to meet and dance with lots of new people.

Definitely to be recommended, IMHO. :flower:

Chris

Graham
18th-December-2004, 02:33 PM
These were almost exactly my words just one short year ago, and the bug has very definitely bitten :D
I know she can be a bit of a pest, but I wouldn't call her a bug :wink: Especially since she's likely to read this :really:

ElaineB
19th-December-2004, 08:15 PM
I'm right behind La Diva on this :flower:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Fabulous idea Claire. I voted for competitors, because unless one is a competitor or a follower of competitions, the rules and protocol would probably pass one by.

Elaine

Gadget
20th-December-2004, 10:34 AM
A couple of points:
This would only be of interest to those who have an interest in competitions. Even then, a vocal interest and/or a grumble about how existing competitions are run.
Of the number of MJers, how many actually compete? And of these, how many 'expect' better than they get? And how many of these think that their opinions should influence future events and other competions?

IMHO this would create an elite clique giving more voice to an already vocal minority.

What's wrong with just contacting the organisers and puting your views to them? Especially since most of the complaintives are experanced dancers who are known "on the scene" and who's opinions do actually hold some weight? What's wrong with organisers contacting other organisers or attending events to see what works and dosn't work so that they can apply it to their event?

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 10:54 AM
A couple of points:
This would only be of interest to those who have an interest in competitions.


I don't think this is true. I think an MJDA, catering for the needs of dancers separately from the vested interests of the venue organisers and franchises would be a good thing for non-competitors as well as those interested in comps.

And lots of people go to competition events without actually competing. And even hardened non-competitors can sometimes be persuaded to change :blush:



IMHO this would create an elite clique giving more voice to an already vocal minority.

I don't see why this is a problem for you, though. Why should you label a minority as "elite" and "clique" for wanting to better their lot? If you don't compete, as you say, it doesn't affect you.



What's wrong with just contacting the organisers and puting your views to them? Especially since most of the complaintives are experanced dancers who are known "on the scene" and who's opinions do actually hold some weight? What's wrong with organisers contacting other organisers or attending events to see what works and dosn't work so that they can apply it to their event?
This is cloud cuckoo land.

Contacting the organisers makes no difference at all - there's still no Open category at Blackpool despite, AIUI, requests for years. And the opinions of the dancers only hold weight amongst the dancers, AFAICS.

Organisers contacting other organisers??? Responding to feedback??? Changing their thing because they see something better elsewhere???

:rofl:

Andy McGregor
20th-December-2004, 11:19 AM
A couple of points:
This would only be of interest to those who have an interest in competitions. Even then, a vocal interest and/or a grumble about how existing competitions are run.
Of the number of MJers, how many actually compete? And of these, how many 'expect' better than they get? And how many of these think that their opinions should influence future events and other competions?

IMHO this would create an elite clique giving more voice to an already vocal minority.

What's wrong with just contacting the organisers and puting your views to them? Especially since most of the complaintives are experanced dancers who are known "on the scene" and who's opinions do actually hold some weight? What's wrong with organisers contacting other organisers or attending events to see what works and dosn't work so that they can apply it to their event?

ChrisA has already said a great deal of what I would have said - and probably said it better than I would have. Is Gadget saying 'no change'? Because if we were to carry on as we are I think that's what we will get. The Blackpool competition is the biggest because it was the first to set up after the demise of LeJive and because it has a fabulous venue - but it hasn't changed it's format since it's inception. Members of the 'elite clique' have contacted the organisers, who are very approachable, and asked for change - nothing happened :tears:

In the light of this evidence I think the way ahead is to band together and use a carrot and stick approach. Something like, 'if you did it this way our gang will come to your party' - with a sub-text of 'if you don't change x in particular we will all stay away'.

Gadget
20th-December-2004, 02:15 PM
I don't think this is true. I think an MJDA, catering for the needs of dancers separately from the vested interests of the venue organisers and franchises would be a good thing for non-competitors as well as those interested in comps.
What are the "vested interests" of the venue organisers? How do they differ from the interests of the competitors (or even spectators)?


I don't see why this is a problem for you, though. Why should you label a minority as "elite" and "clique" for wanting to better their lot? If you don't compete, as you say, it doesn't affect you.
Correct - but as you said "And lots of people go to competition events without actually competing. And even hardened non-competitors can sometimes be persuaded to change": it may not affect me now, but who's to say that it won't in the future?
Why do I label this minority as "elite"? - because only that minority have the experiance and ability to have traveled to several competitions and competed in them: and most are placed or have been. These are people who are good dancers - not soley by 'freestyle reputation', but by competiton results. {assuming one can equate to the other :devil::wink:}
Why do I label them as "clique"? - because they all know each other (or at least know [u]of[/i] each other) and the perspective from the ant's view is that you have to reach a certain level or prove yourself before acceptance will be given. "Clique" because as a group they will blackmail competition organisers with bocott of events that don't satisfy them. "Clique" because of this attitude.



What's wrong with just contacting the organisers and puting your views to them? Especially since most of the complaintives are experanced dancers who are known "on the scene" and who's opinions do actually hold some weight? What's wrong with organisers contacting other organisers or attending events to see what works and dosn't work so that they can apply it to their event?
This is cloud cuckoo land.
Really?? With reference back to the first point - what do organisers want out of a competition that is to the detriment of the attendees?


Contacting the organisers makes no difference at all - there's still no Open category at Blackpool despite, AIUI, requests for years. And the opinions of the dancers only hold weight amongst the dancers, AFAICS.

{Andy McGregor} The Blackpool competition is the biggest because it was the first to set up after the demise of LeJive and because it has a fabulous venue - but it hasn't changed it's format since it's inception. Members of the 'elite clique' have contacted the organisers, who are very approachable, and asked for change - nothing happened
Perhaps there is a reason for Blackpool not having an "open" cattegory: entering into this would weaken the other cattegories; by not having it, the competition stands out as unique; there would be one more competiton to run on the day, so the rest of the competitions would have to rush more or not be given enough time; there would be less time for freestyle;... there are thousands of reasons against it, and thousands for it - it is up to the organisers to weigh the pros against the cons balancing on what they want from the competition. Has anyone asked the organisers why, or why not?

I have known of at a few competitions who have changed rules, policy, venue,... as a result of feedback - and that's just from within this forum. Are the organisers not dancers? So the opinions of other dancers would actually hold some weight with them.


Organisers contacting other organisers??? Responding to feedback??? Changing their thing because they see something better elsewhere???

{Andy McGregor} Is Gadget saying 'no change'? Because if we were to carry on as we are I think that's what we will get.
If they don't change and someone else does... what happens to them? If people discover a different competition that is (in their opinion) "better", what would happen?
Is the lure of (eg) blackpool the quality of dancers attending? If so, why do they attend? Is it a vicious circle? Would the top handfull of competitors going to a different (better) competition instead start a spiral into it's death? Would a pheonix of the new competition be worth it?



If, as a group (clique), you all think that competitions woul be better if x,y or z, then why not create and run one to show the rest how it's done?

DavidY
20th-December-2004, 02:16 PM
There's obviously a lot of interest in what such an association could do for competitors - but I think it could do things for "ordinary" dancers as well.

It could give information useful to dancers who don't spend their lives on forums like this one. I wouldn't necessarily say these should list other venues - I would suggest the MFDA might want to stay out of that one - but there would be other useful information that would hopefully be seen as a good thing.

For example something like Lory's post here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=84025#post84025) (on why you should never wear the same top twice without washing it) should be printed by the thousand and left out at every MJ venue in the country (with official MJDA logo of course...).

Gus
20th-December-2004, 02:35 PM
There's obviously a lot of interest in what such an association could do for competitors - but I think it could do things for "ordinary" dancers as well.

It could give information useful to dancers who don't spend their lives on forums like this one. I wouldn't necessarily say these should list other venues - I would suggest the MFDA might want to stay out of that one - but there would be other useful information that would hopefully be seen as a good thing.Guys ... its all a great idea .... BUT IT WILL NEVER WORK. :sad: Why, simply because it is not in the best interests of the Jive organisers. I've become increasingly despondent about the motivation and actions of Jive organsations in the UK ... for the most part everything I've seen has been defensive and designed to stifle competition, not promote it (...I recognise that there are some noteworthy exceptions). You think that any Jive orgnanisation is going to help promote a 'trade union for dancers' ... sorry .. I may be getting more bitter and cynical than usual ... but I cant see it happening .... thoughg I would love to be proven wrong.

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 02:42 PM
What are the "vested interests" of the venue organisers? How do they differ from the interests of the competitors (or even spectators)?

Who knows? If they were the same, though, you'd think they'd listen a bit more.



Why do I label this minority as "elite"? - because only that minority have the experiance and ability to have traveled to several competitions and competed in them: and most are placed or have been. These are people who are good dancers - not solely by 'freestyle reputation', but by competiton results.

Er, how much experience and ability do you need to travel and compete? You don't even need to be able to drive. You need enough money to pay the entrance fee, and if you want to do as well as you can, you need to spend some time practising.

Just because the number of people that actually do this is small relative to the total population of MJers doesn't mean that only a small proportion can. Comps are very accessible - for those that can be bothered.

And most competition entrants haven't been placed.

I've now danced socially with lots of people that have been placed in competitions (as I expect you have, for that matter). And I can assure you that the vast majority of them are very good at social dancing. And quite a few people have said that my social dancing is better since starting to compete this year, which is lovely to hear :flower:. So it seems that the skills are to some extent transferable.



and the perspective from the ant's view is that you have to reach a certain level or prove yourself before acceptance will be given.

Are you suggesting that the judges are biased towards their friends? If not, what kind of 'acceptance' are you talking about? To enter, all you have to do is fill in the form and send it in with a cheque. I don't see your point here. :confused:

But it is very fashionable here, as in other places, to knock anything that can be construed as elitist. The fact remains that without an elite, everyone is the poorer.



"Clique" because as a group they will blackmail competition organisers with boycott of events that don't satisfy them. "Clique" because of this attitude.

Well, it wouldn't need to come to a boycott. Hopefully there'd be an amicable relationship between the Association and the organisers - whether of social venues or comps.

But I don't think the pejorative label 'clique' is fair in this sense - just consumer power, actually.



Perhaps there is a reason for Blackpool not having an "open" cattegory:
-snip-
Has anyone asked the organisers why, or why not?

Lots of times.

And they read the forum.

I don't understand why they're not prepared to explain their reasoning.



If, as a group (clique), you all think that competitions woul be better if x,y or z, then why not create and run one to show the rest how it's done?
Maybe Andy's suggestion of the MJDA organising a comp would work. But until there are resources to do it, again, it's cloud cuckoo land to say "just do it yourself if you don't like what's out there."

Chris

Lou
20th-December-2004, 02:47 PM
Contacting the organisers makes no difference at all - there's still no Open category at Blackpool despite, AIUI, requests for years. And the opinions of the dancers only hold weight amongst the dancers, AFAICS.

Organisers contacting other organisers??? Responding to feedback??? Changing their thing because they see something better elsewhere???

:rofl:
Are you refering to all organisers here, Chris? I can see how it would be difficult to persuade a huge lumbering monolithic organisation(TM) to change, however, what about the organisers of Bristol & Brighton? (Or am I too blinkered and biased? ;) )

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 03:04 PM
Are you refering to all organisers here, Chris? I can see how it would be difficult to persuade a huge lumbering monolithic organisation(TM) to change, however, what about the organisers of Bristol & Brighton? (Or am I too blinkered and biased? ;) )

Well, there's not much wrong with the Bristol and Brighton comps, IMHO.

Fab venues, great music, superb organisation, prompt results posting, and three categories.

It's really only Blackpool that needs a third category, and Hammersmith which needs a better venue and (much) better and fairer organisation.

Chris

Gadget
20th-December-2004, 03:37 PM
Why do I label this minority as "elite"? - because only that minority have the experiance and ability to have traveled to several competitions and competed in them: and most are placed or have been. These are people who are good dancers - not solely by 'freestyle reputation', but by competiton results.Er, how much experience and ability do you need to travel and compete? You don't even need to be able to drive. You need enough money to pay the entrance fee, and if you want to do as well as you can, you need to spend some time practising.

Just because the number of people that actually do this is small relative to the total population of MJers doesn't mean that only a small proportion can. Comps are very accessible - for those that can be bothered.

And most competition entrants haven't been placed.

So most MJers don't think about competing, and most that do compete don't get placed, and it seems that the remainder are the ones that do actuall travel and do get placed. It is this minority who want a strangle-hold on all competitions.
Just because everyone can attend, does not mean that everyone should attend. For many it's not a matter of "can't be bothered": I think that time, travel and money are more likley to curtail these excursions than any true apathy. Are the views of this small, but vocal minority held by the MJ populous as a whole?



and the perspective from the ant's view is that you have to reach a certain level or prove yourself before acceptance will be given.
Are you suggesting that the judges are biased towards their friends? If not, what kind of 'acceptance' are you talking about? To enter, all you have to do is fill in the form and send it in with a cheque. I don't see your point here. :confused:
Sorry a bit un-clear: I was reffering to the MJDA or members within it from the perspective of one of the 'normal' people on the ground - since they are all (or the majority of them are) "good" dancers, the stigma of approaching them is just as great as it would be approaching them for a dance, if not more so.


But it is very fashionable here, as in other places, to knock anything that can be construed as elitist. The fact remains that without an elite, everyone is the poorer.
I was not knocking the "elite" - they have tried hard and suceeded: I tend to use the term thinking on a positive 'best of the best', "topgun" style reference {actually, truth be told a ZXSpectum game :blush:}
I was having a go at them all clubbing together to force a strangle hold on competitions and forcing them to do their bidding.


Well, it wouldn't need to come to a boycott. Hopefully there'd be an amicable relationship between the Association and the organisers - whether of social venues or comps.
What use is a threat unless it's going to be actioned? It's an empty threat that holds no weight and would not work with the organisers: why should they listen?
If it's not an empty threat, then this group of people can dictate which competitions will run, where, for how long, to what rules, how much to charge, when to hold it... If the competition organisers do not follow their demands, then support for that competition is withdrawn, people don't attend and it dies.
So would you prefer "Cartel" rather than "Clique"?


Maybe Andy's suggestion of the MJDA organising a comp would work. But until there are resources to do it, again, it's cloud cuckoo land to say "just do it yourself if you don't like what's out there."
What resources would you need? Why is the idea so far-fetched? Just because something is difficult does not preclude it from happening.

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 03:53 PM
Just because everyone can attend, does not mean that everyone should attend. For many it's not a matter of "can't be bothered": I think that time, travel and money are more likley to curtail these excursions than any true apathy.

Obviously you've taken my use of the phrase 'can be bothered' and inferred that I mean that the rest are apathetic.

Well I don't. Of course the time and money are significant.



Sorry a bit un-clear: I was reffering to the MJDA or members within it from the perspective of one of the 'normal' people on the ground - since they are all (or the majority of them are) "good" dancers, the stigma of approaching them is just as great as it would be approaching them for a dance, if not more so.

Heavens. You think that dancers, acting for dancers, are going to be less influenced than organisers??? :what:

Again this dreadful myth that competition dancers are awful people continues to be spread. Why is it that you think that someone that's competed in one or more competitions is so unapproachable?

I don't understand why you're so negative about the prospect of an association, with a voice, acting for dancers, run by dancers.

You come across as incredibly cynical to me.



I was having a go at them all clubbing together to force a strangle hold on competitions and forcing them to do their bidding.

Stranglehold? Come on, this really is fantasy land. We're talking about a voice, not an army.




What use is a threat unless it's going to be actioned? It's an empty threat that holds no weight and would not work with the organisers: why should they listen?

Because, as ever, things are best achieved by negotiation.



What resources would you need? Why is the idea so far-fetched? Just because something is difficult does not preclude it from happening.
Er, huge amounts of time and effort; the financial underwriting of an expensive venue hire. Will that do?

It's not far fetched. I'm just saying that Joe Bloggs wouldn't necessarily be able to get up one morning, put his entire life on hold while he organises something that would compete with the Blackpool comp. It would take more resources than most individuals could muster.


Chris

Gadget
20th-December-2004, 06:32 PM
Heavens. You think that dancers, acting for dancers, are going to be less influenced than organisers??? :what:


Again this dreadful myth that competition dancers are awful people continues to be spread. Why is it that you think that someone that's competed in one or more competitions is so unapproachable?
Is it true that most people are intimidated to ask far superior dancers for a dance? Is it true that entering a competition automatically makes you appear to be a superior dancer to those who have not entered? And if that person gets placed, then they appear far superior? And now they are commenting on things to do with dancing that you have little knowledge of: is this a condusive situation to approach someone?
I am not saying that competitions are evil, or the people who enter them are spawn of satan; {...although for some...:devil:} I'm saying that this would increases an imaginary gulf of ability (and hence approachability) between your average joe and the 'elite'.


I don't understand why you're so negative about the prospect of an association, with a voice, acting for dancers, run by dancers.
because dancers are not organisers: they pay at the door, dance and leave. They have very little knowledge of any deals that were made to get the venue, the bar, the light system, sound, floor, cleaning, door staff, tables & chairs, and a thousand little things that you only notice if they are wrong.
You have no idea why X was like it was, or if Y let the organisers down - any suggestion should be* listend to, but to say that the organisers should answer them and take them up without question is more cloud coukoo land than anything I've proposed.
Yes, I'm all for making comments and suggestions - but what's he difference between an individual making a suggestion and a body? The only difference put forward here is that the suggestion can be made into a demand.


You come across as incredibly cynical to me.
Really? :whistle: :wink:


Stranglehold? Come on, this really is fantasy land. We're talking about a voice, not an army.
Because, as ever, things are best achieved by negotiation.
Negotiation? When did blackmail become negotiation? Are you saying there is a middle ground in your argument? Remove all your dancers from the competion (and all the tag-allongs) or what? Only remove half of them? Tell members, "sorry - you can't go to that competion, there's a half boycott and the places have been filled." :rolleyes:
If you do not have this sword or Damaclease, what do you have to make the organisers pay any more attention to you? Any solutions or suggestions proposed through the body will have been at the penalty of others - you have to go with the majority I assume. As an organiser, why should there be more value to a narrower vision?


Er, huge amounts of time and effort; the financial underwriting of an expensive venue hire. Will that do? {Obsticals, but not insurmountable ones. }
It's not far fetched. I'm just saying that Joe Bloggs wouldn't necessarily be able to get up one morning, put his entire life on hold while he organises something that would compete with the Blackpool comp. It would take more resources than most individuals could muster.
Correct - but we are not talking about "Joe Blogs"; we are talking about a selection of motivated and driven addicts; not an individual and not without experiance in the very feilds needed.

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 06:44 PM
...load of negative cynical stuff snipped
Whatever.

You don't have to join, if it ever comes into being.

ChrisA
20th-December-2004, 06:51 PM
Is it true that most people are intimidated to ask far superior dancers for a dance? Is it true that entering a competition automatically makes you appear to be a superior dancer to those who have not entered?

Not necessarily always. I often felt scared, but I did it anyway, and there are a few that I still feel nervous dancing with in case I f*** it up, as I so often do :tears:

But so what?

Some people think that it's up to the good dancers to break the ice with the shy ones. And up to a point, fair enough. But shyness can be overcome. And it's also up to the shy to put the effort into overcoming it. :flower:

{insert the whole of all the hotshot threads here, I just can't be a***d anymore - if you want to dance with someone, ask em. If you don't, don't.}

BTW, you can soon find out if a competitor really is better, just by dancing with them. And not all of them are :devil:

Chris

Andy McGregor
20th-December-2004, 07:49 PM
Not necessarily always. I often felt scared, but I did it anyway,

You think you're scared! You've got nothing to be scared about. You dress like the other competitors in mostly black, the only difference is dancing ability - if you're good the audience watch you, if you're not they ignore you :flower:

I, of course, take the difficult road. When I dress up in some silly outfit the audience are watching me from the moment I walk on the floor - if I get it wrong everyone sees - me scared? :sick:

But, I like to laugh in the face of fear. And that is one of the reasons I do it. I'm scared, but it's a fear of nothing. You will come to no harm if you compete in front of a thousand fellow dancers and completely blow it - all you will suffer if things go horribly wrong is humiliation :blush:

.. then I remember Gareth :devil:


".. and this year's award for bravery in the face crushing sympathy goes to ..

..

..

.. Gareth's partner :flower:"

:devil:

Gareth
20th-December-2004, 08:28 PM
].. then I remember Gareth ".. and this year's award for bravery in the face crushing sympathy goes to .... Gareth's partner " [/CODE]



I`m not sure if this is one of those backhanded compliments :rolleyes:

To have stood along side the good and the great, whilst dabbling in those scary and turbulent waters better known as advanced jive. :sick: Thanks to all the support from the likes of Lily and Daisy. :clap:



This year has certainly been an experience :nice:


Life is full of surprises, ups and downs ........ Like having to dance with Andy :whistle:

Banana Man
20th-December-2004, 11:37 PM
I'm getting a bit lost here, particularly with crossover to competitions - rules, and int vs adv.

What I read is that many people want to "improve" things. There appear to be issues regarding standards of competitions, facilities, rules, judging, and the standards of both individual couples and of partnerships, and amateur vs professional status.

Whilst it's a great ambition to make the MJ world a better place, in reality, perhaps it's just like anything else artistic or sporting - there will often be competing associations with slightly different interests. Many of the ballroom dancers out there will be familiar with the arguments, which association/style has the better teachers, the better standards, the better competitions etc??

One of the main elements in ballroom appears to be an umbrella organisation that the various teaching/style organisations belong to - this lays down rules/guidelines on teaching experience/standards, and some basic competition rules - eg beginners and novice can only dance a limited range of steps - allows easy comparison and encourages a level of technical accuracy at an early stage. Above that pretty much anything goes, so long as it’s recognisable as the relevant dance. Simple rules are that you can enter a comp at any level (and even dance at several levels at one comp), but once you've won you can't enter at a lower level, and once you've won a few you have to move up. That's geared around a pretty hectic open competition schedule, so would need some adapting to work for MJ; unless there were more comps (is that a good idea, especially if they were smaller?). This also assumes that all the MJ orgs could talk to each other, and then what happens to all the independents?

The other element is a dancers association (paid membership), with elected reps from the dancers, not discriminating or dividing by experience at all. The aim is to provide support for all dancers (competitors or not) and training for national representatives (now there's an idea?), and to represent dancers to other interested bodies, such as competition organisers.

There's also a promoters association, a professionals' organisation (which includes teachers and competitors), and a competitors association (which represents both amateur and professional). Confused, yes, I would be too.

What's clear is that there is a lack of transparency (perceived or real) in MJ judging, and confusion over how the different categories/levels should be defined. The first will only come from the various organisers getting together, agreeing something and then telling everybody how it works - especially what people are being judged on - surely if they know then putting it in writing and telling the competitors can only help – and publishing the judges’ marks. The second is also pretty simple; people compete because they like it or because they want to win - so make the levels break so that people can compete on a regular or occasional basis and stand a reasonable chance of winning. At the highest level (and possibly for a couple of age groups), introduce national ranking competitions and spread these around the country (say 1 a month and could include the big ones in this), dance at several (say 3 or 4) and your placings count towards a ranking. Oh yeh, and introduce a professional category - if you get paid money for teaching, DJing, or earn money from organising then you are a professional. If you are a dem or a taxi, then I'd say you're not a professional (but feel free to disagree!).

Hope this helps. :confused:

PS. I vote Divi as founding President of the MJDA. :)

Andy McGregor
21st-December-2004, 03:03 PM
Life is full of surprises, ups and downs ........ Like having to dance with Andy :whistle:

And a lovely dance that was :flower:

latinlover
21st-December-2004, 03:18 PM
I think we need to instigate a mediation service between Chris A and Gadget!!!!

blimey! :really: :what:

Gus
21st-December-2004, 03:22 PM
I think we need to instigate a mediation service between Chris A and Gadget!!!!:Nahhhh ... they have even BEGUN to get started yet. If you want to see 'handbags at dawn' you should see some of the scraps I had with CJ and Will when the Forum first started :wink:

They bothn have some good pints to make and they both have (sort of) justifiable view points. Long may the debate continue. Who wnats to start a book on who caves in first. :devil:

Trish
21st-December-2004, 04:53 PM
I agree with Gus, that Chris A and Gadget both have some good points. It depends on your perspective.

I've seen situations where people are in the "in crowd" and it seems they're more likely to get chosen as a demo or as a teacher, and perhaps this partly reflects Gadgets point of view (please feel free to disagree with me Gadget!) The other side to this is that perhaps if people regularly compete they are more likely to know the type of people that can help them and are practicing regularly and are therefore better dancers - so perhaps this is the reason they are picked. Having said that, not all of the "in crowd" that I see are competitors.

As an "average" dancer, I can see Gadget's point that sometimes competitors do seem unaproachable, and that they also may have their own agendas. I have often found though that guys who I have danced with after taking every bit of guts to ask them are sometimes very friendly, and sometimes very aloof - also some are good dancers and some (despite the fact they should know better) yank you about! Same as anyone else, it depends on the person - Chris is right on this though, if you want to dance with someone, just ask, what have you got to lose!

As to the real topic of this thread, I think if a MJDA could get the average dancer what they wanted that would be great. This could include lobbying for set standards on things like teaching, levels of competance for taxi dancers, smoking (or rather non smoking please) in venues, then that would be a good thing. I also think if it was just run for competitors this would rule all of the above out, which would be a shame.

As to the competitions, yes if they're not fair then they should be made fairer, and the judging should be to transparent critera, and also feedback should be given - this would make things better for those watching as well as the competitors - and probably up the standards over time. I also like Eric's point, that beginners, intermediate etc should have more specific critera, so you don't get situations where you can hardly tell the difference between the two!

I can't really see with all the warring going on between Ceroc and anyone else (or sometimes different Ceroc areas you get the feeling!) that this is likely to happen. It would be interesting to know how and at what stage Eric's listed Ballroom associations got started, and also how long/how many members it took to get them taken seriously.

Good luck to anyone whose got the guts to try and set something up though!

There I've said my bit now.

Trish

latinlover
21st-December-2004, 05:13 PM
I agree with Gus, that Chris A and Gadget both have some good points. It depends on your perspective.
..............big snip..................
Good luck to anyone whose got the guts to try and set something up though!

Trish

:yeah:

OK my turn for the two penn'orth!

bearing in mind what little I know about running a franchise - never mind the whole of the ceroc organisation - it would be a very brave person who took this on because ,as witnessed on this forum you can't please everyone all of the time!
I don't really believe for a minute that Ceroc TM is in business for any other reason than to make a living out of providing a dancing organisation, and I certainly don't believe Ceroc TM is guilty of the cynical approach of which it is frequently accused(by implication , mostly) on this forum.
I think it would be a good thing if there was an organisation to represent the many and varied needs of dancers, both in competitions and as punters, but I think it would be a rather poisoned chalice and whoever did it would end up getting more criticism than thanks


[QUOTE=Trish]Good luck to anyone whose got the guts to try and set something up though!Trish[/QUOTE

ChrisA
21st-December-2004, 05:24 PM
I've seen situations where people are in the "in crowd"
All good points, Trish.

I'll just pick up on this one...

The "in crowd" is all about perspective too. Those who see a "crowd" as "in" must presumably find something appealing about their scene... otherwise they wouldn't see them as "in".

From the outside of anywhere that you want to be inside, it feels cold. Most of us have a desire to feel accepted in some way.

So what to do? To be recognised by a "gang" that you want to join you have to make yourself appealing to the gang in some way.

Fortunately, the dancers "gang" is quite easy to join. You don't have to bite the heads off chickens, you just have to want to be a better dancer, and persist in improving. Which means comps, weekenders, workshops, big freestyles, all the stuff we know and love - in other words, investment of time, money, and effort.

None of this is rocket science, though - it just so happens that you keep running into the same people all the time :D

I think that's the only thing that, in the MJ world, at least, differentiates the "in crowd" - it tends to be the more obsessive ones.

Chris

Dazzle
21st-December-2004, 05:41 PM
I think it would be a rather poisoned chalice and whoever did it would end up getting more criticism than thanks.

Sounds to me like this job description was written just for GUS! :whistle:

Trish
21st-December-2004, 05:45 PM
All good points, Trish.

I'll just pick up on this one...

The "in crowd" is all about perspective too. Those who see a "crowd" as "in" must presumably find something appealing about their scene... otherwise they wouldn't see them as "in".

etc etc

Chris

Interesting. Yes, you're quite right. I think the crowd I'm thinking of are made up of teachers, demos and one or two other good dancers, who are mainly as you say, fairly obsessive! I like them as people but feel I am on the edge of this crowd (as are various other people I know) and don't feel quite part of it. Part of this is defintely because I can't go to everything, my life has other elements as well as my love of dancing, my husband doesn't dance, and so I can't go every night, as I also want to see him - and I am aware of this.

The funny thing is, you may be right, that it's all a perspective thing, and that other people looking in at us may think I am part of this crowd - makes you think - perhaps I should change my perspective! The other interesting thing now I come to think about it is, that where I am (I admit) slightly jealous of their dance abilities, and the fact they are free to dance when and where they like, when I got married, at least one person I know admitted being jealous of how happy I am. I wouldn't give that up for dancing - however much I love it!

Thanks Chris - That's made me feel better and more balanced!!!

Lory
21st-December-2004, 05:59 PM
I'd like to read a synopsis of this thread, with bullet points listing all the points raised so far, for and against.

Anyone up for the job? :flower:

Gadget
21st-December-2004, 06:20 PM
...load of negative cynical stuff snipped
Whatever.
You don't have to join, if it ever comes into being.
I'm open to persuasion: come up with positive arguments that will counter the negative ones! I don't see how a combined body of these respected dancers would do more good than them as individuals?
One voice with the backing of ten people, or ten voices saying the same thing... as an organiser I would say that it's easier to ignore/forget the single voice no matter how much 'volume' it has.


I'm getting a bit lost here, particularly with crossover to competitions - rules, and int vs adv.
Was this a sugestion to convert a "people's army" {:whistle::devil:} into a ruling body? Dictate not only what the competition rules are, but what moves you can/can't do, who is allowed to teach, who is at what level,...
:shudder:

Ceroc, Blitz, Leroc, whatever all teach you how to dance. There may be subtle differences in methods and styling, but essentially, they all teach the same thing: how to move yourself and your partner with the music.
If you put a ruling body over the top of them all, what would/could it do? Impose limits. Confine, restrain, seperate, divide and pigeonhole all the mix that makes it what it is.
Ballroom already has limits, firm boundaries that say this is and this is not. Grading and tutorage can be judged and measured against each other because they are all doing the same thing.
You cannot have a strict 'rulebook' method to quantify MJ (teachers, dancers, grading, points, ability, competitions...) untill you have a definition of what it is - and the best definitition I have seen so far is made by outlining what it isn't
It is subjective and it's an art form. It's like saying that you have to have one body to rule over the production of music. This is music, this is not. It can only be 'music' if you play this set of notes in this order to this timeing.

The more I think about this anology, the more I like it :D.

Gus
21st-December-2004, 07:52 PM
If you put a ruling body over the top of them all, what would/could it do? Impose limits. Confine, restrain, seperate, divide and pigeonhole all the mix that makes it what it is.Wasnt sure that anyone said that the MJDA was there to TELL organisers anything :confused: I dont know how I would feel even as an independant having Jo Public trying to tell me how to teach.

I thought the role was more of communication ... two-way communication. canvasing the needs of the MJ dancing public and articulating that to the Competition orgainsers, DJs, Class and Freestyle organisations. It would also enable feedback or observations back to the dancers about what is going on, whether that be good or bad. If the analogy is that of a Union, a Nuclear power plant operator isnt told HOW to run the plant, though suggestions may be made as to how to help employees comfort and protect their safety. Dont we as dancers want the same?

Divissima
21st-December-2004, 08:15 PM
It would be interesting to know how and at what stage Eric's listed Ballroom associations got started, and also how long/how many members it took to get them taken seriously.I'm on the case, Trish. I am going to spend some time over Christmas looking at the ballroom organisations, and any other dancers' organisations, to see what they do for their members and how they work.

Banana Man
21st-December-2004, 08:25 PM
I'm on the case, Trish. I am going to spend some time over Christmas looking at the ballroom organisations, and any other dancers' organisations, to see what they do for their members and how they work.
Give me a shout, I'll get the grey cells going as well. Sure I have some old membership info somewhere.

E

spindr
22nd-December-2004, 01:48 PM
I'm on the case, Trish. I am going to spend some time over Christmas looking at the ballroom organisations, and any other dancers' organisations, to see what they do for their members and how they work.

Must admit, I'm confused as to what problem(s) you're trying to solve.
And also whether / how you might make it attractive to a "regular" modern jiver?

I would have thought that the traditional idea of publishing a "manifesto" might be a good first step :)

SpinDr.

P.S. I guess the traditional second step is fund-raising, at which point you get a much better idea of who might *really* be interested :devil:

Trish
22nd-December-2004, 05:46 PM
I'm on the case, Trish. I am going to spend some time over Christmas looking at the ballroom organisations, and any other dancers' organisations, to see what they do for their members and how they work.

Thanks Divissima - and Eric!

Divissima
22nd-December-2004, 06:12 PM
Must admit, I'm confused as to what problem(s) you're trying to solve.
And also whether / how you might make it attractive to a "regular" modern jiver?

I would have thought that the traditional idea of publishing a "manifesto" might be a good first step :) Well, that's why it is worth looking at what other similar organisations do - I'm sure there will be some things which look transferable to MJ, and some which won't be, or won't be just yet. There are also lots of good ideas and interesting points raised on this thread. I agree, a manifesto/ mission statement would be a good place to start, at least so that the so-far nebulous idea of an MJDA has some form for dancers and interested parties to talk about (and I'm sure we all will). Then if no-one wants to sign up, we'll know we got it wrong :devil:


P.S. I guess the traditional second step is fund-raising, at which point you get a much better idea of who might *really* be interested :devil:Well quite.

bigdjiver
22nd-December-2004, 10:31 PM
I look back at ballroom as something that the masses did, which then took the road to popular oblivion until SCD. I feel competitons, standards and professionalism all played their part in that. Too many people did not feel they could do it just for enjoyment. I do not want MJ to take that elitist path. There is a place for those that seek for perfection and give mere mortals something to admire and aspire to, but that, IMO, should never become the dominant culture.

Andy McGregor
22nd-December-2004, 11:38 PM
I look back at ballroom as something that the masses did, which then took the road to popular oblivion until SCD. I feel competitons, standards and professionalism all played their part in that. Too many people did not feel they could do it just for enjoyment. I do not want MJ to take that elitist path. There is a place for those that seek for perfection and give mere mortals something to admire and aspire to, but that, IMO, should never become the dominant culture.

At the moment there is a culture of dominance. And that comes from the dominant dance organisation who don't seem to listen to the dancer or even teacher who's out there in the real world. For and example of this look at the way they treated the competitors at their championship :tears: Then look at the way they introduced the, what seems to be unpopular 'warm up'. At classes I've been to they've actually said things like 'we're supposed to do a warm up here - but I'm going to spare you that!'. If they listened to the dancers and teachers maybe they wouldn't introduce unpopular ideas - and maybe they'd treat competitors like they were valued.

At the moment there is one massive organisation that tries and mostly succeeds in dominating our chosen dance - us dancers have just about no say in the way our hobby is developed.

So, I say the place for the MJDA is in giving dancers a voice. And as I am now an organiser as well as a dancer I will be delighted to be told how to improve my product. Especially as one of the reasons I became an organiser was to see MJ develop the way I think it should do - that and I wanted somewhere good to go on a Thursday night that didn't require a 1 hour drive.

bigdjiver
23rd-December-2004, 01:48 AM
At the moment there is a culture of dominance. And that comes from the dominant dance organisation who don't seem to listen to the dancer or even teacher who's out there in the real world. They do listen, to many, many voices, all saying different things. When you are riding the crest of the wave it is difficult to accept that you can be doing much wrong.


For and example of this look at the way they treated the competitors at their championship :tears: Things go wrong. In the heat of the moment it is difficult to fix them. That is why "the judges decision is final" clauses are there. Accept it. Learn. Move on.


Then look at the way they introduced the, what seems to be unpopular 'warm up'. At classes I've been to they've actually said things like 'we're supposed to do a warm up here - but I'm going to spare you that!'. The generally accepted wisdom is that people should warm up before exercise. Some people would not hesitate to cite the lack of a warm-up as evidence of bad practise in court. Personally, I am sure that the way the beginners class is organised is perfectly OK, a jury could be persuaded otherwise.


At the moment there is one massive organisation that tries and mostly succeeds in dominating our chosen dance - us dancers have just about no say in the way our hobby is developed. Learning dancers have been voting with their feet and pocket-book for years, and the evidence is solidly in favour of Ceroc.


So, I say the place for the MJDA is in giving dancers a voice. It will be a self-selected subset of dancers, with a different agenda from the majority. The hope is that with the benefit of much experience and a substantial voice it may be a major catalyst for improvement. It could, with all of the best intentions, move MJ away from what has been its strength. I live in hope, and look forward to seeing how it pans out.

Gus
23rd-December-2004, 02:23 AM
At the moment there is a culture of dominance. And that comes from the dominant dance organisation who don't seem to listen to the dancer or even teacher who's out there in the real world. Andy ... give them a break ..... as much as I may have issues with Ceroc(tm) ... the MJ world is far better for it being their than without it. You comment on some of the changes made ... at least they had the balls to do something. With all due respect, the team that Ceroc has to assess teacher training and look at changes to the way MJ is taught far exceeds ANYONE else’s capability to do so. Last time I was involved they has about 3 experienced teachers and a teacher who was a 'proper' dance teacher .... want to propose any dance organisation who can match that?

They have their faults but why blow something away for the 10% they get wrong when they get 90% ok(-ish). I know other dance organisations who are making a far worse go of it than Ceroc. Re the competition ... again, maybe room for improvement but re you personal issue ... "build a bridge and get over it"! If you don’t like the competition, don’t enter. No one competition can claim to be the 'Best' ... .and the majority of dancers don’t actually care who wins ... so pick a competition you like and enjoy it.

I DON’T BELIEVE I’ve had to stand up for Ceroc twice in a month ... I hope this trend can be reversed. :wink:

Andy McGregor
23rd-December-2004, 05:24 AM
Learning dancers have been voting with their feet and pocket-book for years, and the evidence is solidly in favour of Ceroc.

It's true that Ceroc attract more beginners to our hobby. But do they keep the highest proportion? I wonder ...


I DON’T BELIEVE I’ve had to stand up for Ceroc twice in a month ... I hope this trend can be reversed.
I agree that our hobby is better with Ceroc in it than not. But, I feel that Ceroc HQ could learn from franchisees like Ceroc Scotland - but they seem to be doing the opposite and expecting the rest of Ceroc to learn from Ceroc HQ :tears:

You are right that I should let my gripe with the Ceroc Champs go. However, part of my nature is to make sure my friends don't repeat mistakes I've made. So, until the Ceroc Championships start to treat competitors like human beings I will remind people how badly we were treated at the last competition they ran :angry:

Dazzle
23rd-December-2004, 06:52 AM
I DON’T BELIEVE I’ve had to stand up for Ceroc twice in a month ... I hope this trend can be reversed. :wink:

GUS I think you need to sit in a dark room listening to dolphins and crashing waves, I don't recognise this person! :rofl: :whistle:

Has the ODA gone skiing for Christmas? :wink:

Lou
24th-December-2004, 12:43 AM
btw.... nice bit of domain registration, Mr ChrisA! :wink:

ChrisA
24th-December-2004, 12:52 AM
btw.... nice bit of domain registration, Mr ChrisA! :wink:
:whistle:

ChrisA
24th-December-2004, 01:01 AM
The hope is that with the benefit of much experience and a substantial voice it may be a major catalyst for improvement.
Now that I've been outed, let me say that this, and nothing other than this, is the agenda - which has yet to be fleshed out.

Independence, transparency, democracy will be the watchwords, if I have anything to do with it.

It may come to nothing. But it may not.

:flower:

Chris

jockey
26th-December-2004, 03:23 AM
Anyone remotely interested in concepts such as justice, education, value for money and democracy has to take the idea of a mj dancers association seriously.
I'm late into this debate and I see it has got fearfully embroiled.
One of the key questions INMHO is 'what is the relationship between the dance organisations and we dancers?'; it is only when you have answered this question that you can arrive at what their respective interests are; and it is only if their interests are different (and not taken into account) that dancers need their own organisation to vocalise their case and influence matters.
Organisers dont govern so we dont need a voting system to vote them out of office; we dont work for them so we dont need a trade union to safeguard our pay and conditions; they run a business and provide a service it seems to me - so they should have a complaints dept, n'est ce pas?
An organisation that makes money and provides a service should not be in a monopoly position (the U.S. economy is more alert to this danger than here as they have an extremely powerful monopolies commission) otherwise service and price suffer. Thus in a situation where there are competing dance organisations the competition itself will tend to preserve the service e.g., if a neighbouring org has top teachers down for the same cost of entrance then dancers will go there and not the other place (who will have to think of another additional attraction to bring people back). If they are in danger of losing business they will listen to dancers' views and act to improve their package to their customers.
To sum up - the greater the dominance of one organisation the greater the need for an assoc. of dancers; this assumes lack of altruism, of course!
I believe their is a prima facie case for an association.
What its terms of reference, composition, powers, and funding might be I wouldn't care to say..except that in this Forum itself there is perhaps a proto organisation already - all you need, to start with at any rate, is to get owners of dance companies (or their reps) especially any in near monopoly positions to join in the debates initiated by we the dancers. (I can't wait for the fallout after a major competition - in more than one sense of the word...!!)

bigdjiver
26th-December-2004, 01:34 PM
They are not dance organisations, they are principally teaching people to dance organisations. It is because they have succeeded so well that there is now a need for dance organisations. The companies and the marketplace may well adapt to meet the new opportunities, and are moving in that direction, although, for many on the forum, not fast or far enough.

Any new organisation needs a clear, worthwhile, believable purpose. At the moment I see a mish-mash of gripes and suggestions for improvements, few of which are endorsed by all. This forum may well be all the organisation that is needed.

:devil: Of course, if we are so smart, we could always form a co-operative to put on dances for dancers, and make our collective fortunes :devil: :rofl:

Jive Brummie
27th-December-2004, 09:28 PM
Ok,

so people think having a MJDA is a good idea (i'm sitting on the fence on this one, by the way), but in all honesty, what's it going to do for the dancer? How will it benefit us? Is it purely there to complain to organisers about competition's?

Andy mentioned the word hobby in his post and that got me thinking. If you have some regulatory body like the MJDA, would it still be classed as an innocent hobby that was there initially to enjoy in a social environment or would it take on a entirely more serious position in society?

JB x x

Andy McGregor
27th-December-2004, 11:15 PM
Andy mentioned the word hobby in his post and that got me thinking. If you have some regulatory body like the MJDA, would it still be classed as an innocent hobby that was there initially to enjoy in a social environment or would it take on a entirely more serious position in society?

JB x x

Yes I did say hobby. Football is a hobby too and it does make a valued contribution to society, so are many martial arts, other dance forms, etc. And some of them have organisations that are there for the participant in the hobby. When I fenced there was the AFA, Amateur Fencing Association (now re-named the BFA, British Fencing Association, here (http://www.britishfencing.com/) is their website). It's there for fencers, it's supported by fencers, etc. I think there's about 6,000 members. It's about the running of clubs and it's about the running and participating in competitions - it doesn't run the competitions but it does write the rules for them and produces the national ranking scheme. These are some of the things I'd see the MJDA doing. Is there anyone out there doing any of this at the moment? Does the Forum provide these services? So, I think it's needed and I think now is as good a time as any to make a start.

Jive Brummie
28th-December-2004, 12:22 AM
I think it's a great idea in principle, but if it was intended that the MJDA determine competition rules etc, then don't all the competition organisers need to get together and decide upon a leader, a committee etc? Who'm they trust enough to do so in the first place? And then you have to ask, who is going to get Ceroc, Leroc, Blitz et al, agreeing to anything let alone competition parameters?

And with reference to sporting bodies, most sports, in fact i can't think of one that doesn't (until someone tells me :blush: ), all have some form of grading system, whether it be, "you're good enough to make the first team" or "congratulations, here's your black belt", Modern Jive doesn't! In effect it's the mongrel of the dance world, so not only do you need to form an officiating body but then you have to produce rules, regulations and a heirachy/ranking ladder for all those taking part, and again to make use of the word hobby, do people really want that?

Modern jive for most is a social activity, that is undertaken by those people specificaly because it doesn't have rules, regulations, gradings or ranks, so isn't the formation of the MJDA going to potentially scare off these social dancers?

In practise and as a fierce :blush: competitor, i totally agree that some form of regulation is required, especially on the intermediate/ advanced arguem....erm.....discussion. But with relation to the masses, i'm not sure people really want that.

James :cheers:

Andy McGregor
28th-December-2004, 03:51 AM
But with relation to the masses, i'm not sure people really want that.

James :cheers:

Let's consider a non-competition related argument*. A dance floor is laid at a weekend event with large gaps between two of the sections. A dancer gets the heel of her dance shoe caught in that gap, falls over and breaks her wrist which makes her unable to work for one month. She has just changed jobs and therefore gets the statutory minimum of sick pay and is out of pocket by over £1,000. She asks the organiser for compensation and the organisers says 'no'. If there was an MJDA they could fight on her behalf to get compensation. After all, would a dance organiser stand against a united organisation of dancers? I think not - especially if Divissima was breathing down their necks.

*Disclaimer. This situation is fictional and any similarity to any real situation is unintentional.

And, on the subject of grading. There's no grading in fencing. You either win or you lose. That's it. There's currently no grading in MJ either. The only one I recognise is paid teacher/not paid to teach. All other grades of MJ'er exist in the imaginations of those people who dream them up and argue about them.

Gus
28th-December-2004, 04:15 PM
Maybe I've missed some of the points, but coming from another angle ... say I'm a muggle and I start dancing at, say Ceroc Blackpool ... what incentive would there be for me to bother to become a member ... what tangible benefits would it give me?

Jive Brummie
28th-December-2004, 04:24 PM
Again, I agree in principle but i have to be honest, I think an MJDA smacks of trade unionism, something i've never liked by the way. I would have the utmost sympathy for the injured party, and yes, she should get some form of financial recompense in light of the money she has lost, but it is also not the case that 'you pay your money - you take your chance'?

IMO 'unions' as such utilise 'bully boy' tactics. My pal wants to fight you but he's bigger than you, so you go and get your mates and you all take on the big boy. The old 'my dad is bigger than your dad' springs to mind. And also, i find that when these unions get bigger and stronger, they tend to forget about the individual?

I think it would be hard enough to determine who's on the committee, let alone what they're going to achieve.

As you can tell, i'm still not convinced despite the fact that i think it's actually quite a nice idea.

James :cheers:

Jive Brummie
28th-December-2004, 04:26 PM
Maybe I've missed some of the points, but coming from another angle ... say I'm a muggle and I start dancing at, say Ceroc Blackpool ... what incentive would there be for me to bother to become a member ... what tangible benefits would it give me?

:yeah:

Andy McGregor
28th-December-2004, 07:37 PM
Maybe I've missed some of the points, but coming from another angle ... say I'm a muggle and I start dancing at, say Ceroc Blackpool ... what incentive would there be for me to bother to become a member ... what tangible benefits would it give me?

My own opinion is that the MJDA would be mostly of benefit to competitors by offering the following;

Standardised competition entry criteria.
Standardised competition rules.
Standardised competition judging methods.

And, because of all of the above we could have a national ranking scheme. And once we've got a ranking scheme we can divide categories by ability. For example, you couldn't be an intermediate (although I'd love to see this title disappear) dancer if you were in the top 100 or 200 or whatever.

It's harder to see what the benefit would be to social dancers. Although giving the dancer-in-the-street a voice gives the same benefit as any other consumer organisation. Also, a ranking scheme might help students decide where to go for lessons in a saturated market - which I think we are nowhere near to being.

But, according to the results of this poll at least, I'm in the minority in thinking the MJDA should be for competitors. Maybe the people that voted for all dancers could tell us what the benefits would be for them as it might explain why they voted that way - does this mean I agree with Gus? Surely not :wink:

Gareth
28th-December-2004, 11:49 PM
Modern jive for most is a social activity, that is undertaken by those people specificaly because it doesn't have rules, regulations, gradings or ranks, so isn't the formation of the MJDA going to potentially scare off these social dancers?.....

Not as far as I can see............

In Ballroom dancing there is a competitive association, which you have to join if you want to compete. This body do all the things that Andy has stated like:


Standardised competition entry criteria.
Standardised competition rules.
Standardised competition judging methods.

If you just want to socialise and attend classes there is no requirement to join.

I can`t see any differences between Modern Jive or Ballroom dancing that would prevent such an organisation being setup to represent dancers.

If you want to do more than the social scene, then you join the relevant body. I am unaware of any problems that have been created by such an organisation.

Another benefit in Ballroom competitions is that all judges marks are available for scutiny. This makes it far more open and enables the competitors to see where they need to improve.

djtrev
29th-December-2004, 12:42 AM
It seems to me that the motivation behind the MJDA has more to do with competitions than MJ dancers in general.
It appears that most of the people interested in the formation of such an organisation are either competitors or on this forum or are acquinted with each other because they either compete or travel to competitions to spectate.
If the catalyst for this organisation is to have a say in the rules,regulations and running etc. of already well established competitions surely the easiest way to gain that foothold is for all those interested parties to get together and make representation to the organisers.If you are not happy with the outcome of those meetings then you have a choice-accept it or boycott it.

Gadget
29th-December-2004, 04:07 AM
Dancing is a form of artistry - an extension to music. There are "battle of the bands" competions. There are music awards. There are festivals. Is there a body that stands up for people who play music?

I think this anology is far closer than any sporting one: sport is competative - dancing is expressive. Try photography for another comparison - there are people who's artistry you admire, some who's style you would love to reproduce. There are competitions, clubs and soceties devoted to it. Is there a body to oversee people who take photos?

What will this give individuals that individuals could not generate themselves? Is it only about competitions? Would you want to see unified competition criteria? Every competition the same? Would you want to score people to judge their ability? Would you want everyone to do things exactly the same way so that judges can see exactly who is better than who?

Please someone tell me the advantages of an MJDA again?

Andy McGregor
29th-December-2004, 07:01 AM
Is it only about competitions? Would you want to see unified competition criteria? Every competition the same? Would you want to score people to judge their ability? Would you want everyone to do things exactly the same way so that judges can see exactly who is better than who?


Yes :confused:

.. although I think the last question isn't quite right. If everyone did everything exactly the same way they'd all get the same score.


Please someone tell me the advantages of an MJDA again?

I think Gadget has answered his own question.

David Franklin
29th-December-2004, 10:39 AM
My own opinion is that the MJDA would be mostly of benefit to competitors by offering the following;

Standardised competition entry criteria.
Standardised competition rules.
Standardised competition judging methods.
I would rather see an official "template" than an enforced standard; I think it's nice to have some differences between the different competitions. (Alternatively the rules could explicitly leave some things to organisers discretion).


And, because of all of the above we could have a national ranking scheme. And once we've got a ranking scheme we can divide categories by ability. For example, you couldn't be an intermediate (although I'd love to see this title disappear) dancer if you were in the top 100 or 200 or whatever.Am I the only person who doesn't see this working? I just don't think we have enough competitions for a ranking system to work - the comparable system in the States manages, but they have about 2 competitions a month. With just 4 competitions a year I don't see how you can rank down to the 200th place. Only way I can see is to allow a lot of ties, so you might have 103-197 being all the people who have got through at least 2 rounds of intermediate competition or something. And whatever you do, outside of the top few, the statistical 'noise' will cause the rankings to fluctuate wildly over time. I'm not sure what the point would be, to be honest.


It's harder to see what the benefit would be to social dancers. Although giving the dancer-in-the-street a voice gives the same benefit as any other consumer organisation. Also, a ranking scheme might help students decide where to go for lessons in a saturated market - which I think we are nowhere near to being.Can't think of a worse use for a ranking scheme, to be blunt! (Seriously, I could see this taking MJ the "wrong way" - emphasis on competitions above everything else). But I can see other possible benefits:

Defining standards for teaching/venues: Although I can't see evaluating teachers working, a set of recommendations (e.g. wooden floor, wireless mikes, max # of dancers/sq metre etc.) might be workable.
Safety standards/insurance: Not sure what is/isn't practical here, but just things like getting a "pool of wisdom" vis. a vis. dance injuries - prevention/treatment could help a lot. And it might be possible to arrange group courses for teachers that wouldn't be possible for individuals. Possibly a group insurance scheme as well.
I think something that improves standards for competitors will usually improve standards for social dancers as well. After all, a lot of move, styling and technique changes have come from competitors.

Dave

stewart38
29th-December-2004, 10:47 AM
You are right that I should let my gripe with the Ceroc Champs go. However, part of my nature is to make sure my friends don't repeat mistakes I've made. So, until the Ceroc Championships start to treat competitors like human beings I will remind people how badly we were treated at the last competition they ran :angry:


I had a great time at last years champs at Hammersmith , maybe thats because i got through more rounds then ever before and saw nothing wrong with the marking.Generally it seemed well organised given the numbers.

The year before I didnt get pass first round of lucky dip and was convinced it was rig so I know where Andy is coming from I think ??

People talk about getting better venues for places such as Hammersmith how about Albert Hall £500 a head

A few years ago on this site much debate was given wether there should even be competitions, i just hope ceroc doent go full circle get 'boards' rules and marking and testing in next few years. The no foot work is now well out of the window :sick:

stewart38
29th-December-2004, 10:57 AM
Let's consider a non-competition related argument*. A dance floor is laid at a weekend event with large gaps between two of the sections. A dancer gets the heel of her dance shoe caught in that gap, falls over and breaks her wrist which makes her unable to work for one month. She has just changed jobs and therefore gets the statutory minimum of sick pay and is out of pocket by over £1,000. She asks the organiser for compensation and the organisers says 'no'. If there was an MJDA they could fight on her behalf to get compensation. After all, would a dance organiser stand against a united organisation of dancers? I think not - especially if Divissima was breathing down their necks.



She gets a solicitor and the organiser PL Insurance would respond

If the organised event doesnt have PL cover she just (via solicitors) sues the individual organisers.

Gus
29th-December-2004, 01:17 PM
She gets a solicitor and the organiser PL Insurance would respond{Cynic Mode On}
And want to take a bet how many organisers actualy have PL Insurance?
{Cynic Mode Off}

stewart38
29th-December-2004, 01:51 PM
{Cynic Mode On}
And want to take a bet how many organisers actualy have PL Insurance?
{Cynic Mode Off}


Probably most 'venues' that 'lend' the hall etc for a fee to a organiser have the PL covered under hirers liability ,where usage of hall over the year is disclosed.

It would be a brave man or women who organises these events not to have any cover. Rates are coming down now.

Gus
29th-December-2004, 02:06 PM
It would be a brave man or women who organises these events not to have any cover. Rates are coming down now.WHERE??? Have you tried getting PLI cover? Not only are the rates sky high, the insurers unable to comprehend what you actualy do ... to make matters worse the numpties that are employed by the insurance brokers exhibit less competency and customer service than the Leeds (dis-)United back 4! :angry: :angry:

Andy McGregor
29th-December-2004, 02:47 PM
I had a great time at last years champs at Hammersmith , maybe thats because i got through more rounds then ever before and saw nothing wrong with the marking.Generally it seemed well organised given the numbers.

The year before I didnt get pass first round of lucky dip and was convinced it was rig so I know where Andy is coming from I think ??


Where I'm coming from on this is that I saw first-hand that the marks I was given by the judges were not recorded on the computer that was used to calculate who progressed to the next round. Until I saw that I had accepted that I hadn't been put through by the judges. To subsequently find that I had been put through, prove to the organiser that I had and then be told that I still couldn't go through is where I'm coming from :tears:

There is no independent scrutiny of marks at the Ceroc Championships like there was at Britroc. We aren't even told how the marks are calculated, what the marks were or anything - it's all a big secret. Which makes us wonder what Ceroc have to hide. Although I suspect they've got nothing to hide and it's just their habit of secrecy.

bigdjiver
29th-December-2004, 02:58 PM
... People talk about getting better venues for places such as Hammersmith how about Albert Hall £500 a head ... The Albert Hall is expensive, but nothing like that. It could be brought down to a viable price, with a lot of negotiation. They have a huge database, and could bring in considerable revenues with muggle spectators only tickets. It is a credible venue with considerable television expertise associated, and could be the basis of a major promotion exercise for MJ. IMO it would be too tight on dance floor space, although both the arena and stage could be used. It could be a negotiating nightmare, as many of the seats belong to life-sponsors who have the right to attend every event, in certain categories, for free.

I did some work on a spreadsheet costing it all out, but working through their terms was a nightmare.

stewart38
29th-December-2004, 03:04 PM
WHERE??? Have you tried getting PLI cover? Not only are the rates sky high, the insurers unable to comprehend what you actualy do ... to make matters worse the numpties that are employed by the insurance brokers exhibit less competency and customer service than the Leeds (dis-)United back 4! :angry: :angry:


Going of thread a bit but thats why you have hirers liability so schools/halls etc who make lovely lolly out of you chaps arrange it themselves and declare who they hire the hall out to. A few yrs back it was more common for every class to arrange own cover but post 9/11 you can forget that. Hence the junior Insurance staff probably dont know what your talking about.

Its obvioulsy expensive if it stand alone

djtrev
29th-December-2004, 03:14 PM
Make sure one of the organising committee is the DJ.He should have PLI of £1-£5 million. :wink: :wink:

stewart38
29th-December-2004, 03:22 PM
Where I'm coming from on this is that I saw first-hand that the marks I was given by the judges were not recorded on the computer that was used to calculate who progressed to the next round. Until I saw that I had accepted that I hadn't been put through by the judges. To subsequently find that I had been put through, prove to the organiser that I had and then be told that I still couldn't go through is where I'm coming from :tears:
.

Thats not good and I understand where you coming from

Banana Man
29th-December-2004, 03:30 PM
The Albert Hall is expensive, but nothing like that. It could be brought down to a viable price, with a lot of negotiation. They have a huge database, and could bring in considerable revenues with muggle spectators only tickets. It is a credible venue with considerable television expertise associated, and could be the basis of a major promotion exercise for MJ. IMO it would be too tight on dance floor space, although both the arena and stage could be used. It could be a negotiating nightmare, as many of the seats belong to life-sponsors who have the right to attend every event, in certain categories, for free.

I did some work on a spreadsheet costing it all out, but working through their terms was a nightmare.

Albert Hall sounds like a great idea if you don't want to mix a competition with a regular dance. Went to the International Championships (Ballroom/Latin) in October with a few other forumites. Prices ranged from £12 to £27. The hall wasn't used all day for comps though, only from early evening. The main comps were held over the previous 2 days at Brentwood Intnernational Hall (now there's a big dance floor :nice: ), with the final rounds at the AH. The Arena floor doesn't look big, but having seen 25-30 world class BD couples haring round I think there's plenty of space for MJ competitors, but definitely not for non-comp dancers in between events, we did get 2 30min sessions of general dancing with just enough space to breathe.

Perhaps an idea would be to try to involve another dance organisation in the promotion, would push MJ in front of an extra audience and even more muggles. :grin:

bigdjiver
29th-December-2004, 07:01 PM
The Dome ?

Gadget
30th-December-2004, 02:12 AM
Is it only about competitions? Would you want to see unified competition criteria? Every competition the same? Would you want to score people to judge their ability? Would you want everyone to do things exactly the same way so that judges can see exactly who is better than who?
Yes :confused:
So if it's all about competitions, why sould the rest of the MJ community be bothered?

Unified competition criteria means that you have no specialist competitions like "old gits" or a chance to compete beside teachers and taxis in one competition, but a chance to compete without them in another. Having a seperate "arial" competition and stricter "open", or an "Open" that includes arials. These differences are what makes one competiton different from another and gives them a slightly different 'pull' to the competing public.
Vive la diference!

Everyone having to perform a first move in the same way, a routine has to be made up from X moves from section A, with the remainder points made up from difficulty moves in section B,C and D. Marks will be deducted for inconsistencies and deviations from the text-book form and motion. AAAAAaaaarg!!!
Sure it makes it easier for the judges, but what are they judging? that the people infront of them can contort their bodys to match a text-book image better than the last people infront of them. And that's dancing?
If MJ ges down this road, what I dance will no longer be called MJ. {not that it can just now :rofl:}


I can see other possible benefits:
* Defining standards for teaching/venues: Although I can't see evaluating teachers working, a set of recommendations (e.g. wooden floor, wireless mikes, max # of dancers/sq metre etc.) might be workable.
:confused: the floor is dictated by the venue, which is chosen by the organisers and is one of the factors to be considered - what influence could a MJDA insert on the choice of floor that the organiser hasn't thought on?
Wireless mikes are advancing technology - I think it would probably be harder to find a chorded mike now than a wireless one. Don't tell me; the MJDA could endorse a brand name and get the funds to perpetuate it's own idea of importance.
Number of dancers in relation to floor area: depends on the music going to be played, the level of dancer, what's on the edges of the dance floor, the cost of the hall in relation to the dance floor space and quality of it... again it's the organiser's call - too crowded and folk will leave; too empty and it dosn't meet costs & looks empty. The MJDA is going to solve all the problems of number of dancers per m2 with an arbatory figure that takes into account no other factors?

at best it could publish 'guidelines'... but hang on, isn't there some "wisdom" out on public domain that could be usefull? Couldn't the organisers ask arround or guestimate from other venues/events?

* Safety standards/insurance: Not sure what is/isn't practical here, but just things like getting a "pool of wisdom" vis. a vis. dance injuries - prevention/treatment could help a lot. And it might be possible to arrange group courses for teachers that wouldn't be possible for individuals. Possibly a group insurance scheme as well.
organisers and bodys would consult folk on this - specific companies for "health & safety" exist that could be consulted. Generic "wisdom" can be found from many sources (including here) - what benefit does a MJDA give?

* I think something that improves standards for competitors will usually improve standards for social dancers as well. After all, a lot of move, styling and technique changes have come from competitors.
And what has the relation of competition dancers improving social dancing have to do with an MJDA? Theyt improve the social scene because they practic and (after the event) dance in their local venue: how does any influence over the standard of a competition change that? {big assumption that the MJDA would have any influence over any standard}

So what would this MJDA do again?

Andy McGregor
30th-December-2004, 02:32 AM
So what would this MJDA do again?

Whatever it is, over 80% of people who responded to the poll thought it would be fab :clap:

This time Gadget is almost a lone voice in thinking there is no need for something like the MJDA.

David Franklin
30th-December-2004, 10:01 AM
:confused: the floor is dictated by the venue, which is chosen by the organisers and is one of the factors to be considered - what influence could a MJDA insert on the choice of floor that the organiser hasn't thought on?But the organisers might think twice about a venue with an unsuitable floor if they knew it wasn't going to be MJDA approved. I'm astounded at some of the floors used in London ( :cough: The Grand :cough: )!

Wireless mikes are advancing technology - I think it would probably be harder to find a chorded mike now than a wireless one. Don't tell me; the MJDA could endorse a brand name and get the funds to perpetuate it's own idea of importance.Oh for God's sake! It's just an example! Though the usual problem is not having a mike at all.

Number of dancers in relation to floor area: depends on the music going to be played, the level of dancer, what's on the edges of the dance floor, the cost of the hall in relation to the dance floor space and quality of it... again it's the organiser's call - too crowded and folk will leave; too empty and it dosn't meet costs & looks empty. The MJDA is going to solve all the problems of number of dancers per m2 with an arbatory figure that takes into account no other factors?Some venues definitely "pack 'em in" beyond what is particularly safe, and certainly beyond what is enjoyable. I avoid such places, and a way of finding out about them and avoiding them would be a good thing IMHO. But again, it was just an example.


at best it could publish 'guidelines'... but hang on, isn't there some "wisdom" out on public domain that could be usefull? Couldn't the organisers ask arround or guestimate from other venues/events?Lots of things 'could' happen. Have they? Where's the URL for events with sprung wooden non-crowded dance floors?


organisers and bodys would consult folk on this - specific companies for "health & safety" exist that could be consulted. Generic "wisdom" can be found from many sources (including here) - what benefit does a MJDA give?Again, we're getting to the 'coulds' and 'cans'. I grant you Ceroc is big enough to "do it itself". But for the smaller groups, it makes more sense to pool resources rather than each trying to work things out separately.


And what has the relation of competition dancers improving social dancing have to do with an MJDA? Theyt improve the social scene because they practic and (after the event) dance in their local venue: how does any influence over the standard of a competition change that? {big assumption that the MJDA would have any influence over any standard}Obviously, because people's practice is influenced by what they're trying to do in competition; for example, if competition rewarded musicality over 'flash moves', you'd see less people doing dips and drops socially. Conversely, you currently see a lot of the top couples doing social aerials...


So what would this MJDA do again?You know, for an organisation you don't think would do anything, you seem to be awfully strongly against it!

What it actually does depends a lot on whether it ever comes into existance, and who gets involved. My concern is that it seems frequent competitors are the main activists, and that it will focus very much on competitions to the exclusion of the 99% of MJ that is social dance. To which end, it would seem a good thing if social dancers, teachers and organisers who care passionately about the direction of MJ would be involved. You would seem to be a prime candidate, in fact...

Dave

Heather
30th-December-2004, 11:48 AM
Whatever it is, over 80% of people who responded to the poll thought it would be fab :clap:

This time Gadget is almost a lone voice in thinking there is no need for something like the MJDA.

Can't let this pass!!
80% of the people who 'responded' to the poll think its a good idea. That's just great ..... but what about the people who have read through this self indulgent crap and haven't bothered to respond ( any idea what % of the Forum membership that might be!!) I for one have not bothered to respond to this poll and I know that lots of people who were original members of the CerocScotland Forum no longer bother to contribute either.
Anyway, I'm not only talking about the 1200 members of this Forum, surely you can't propose to think and speak on behalf of those people who go along to Modern Jive just to have a good time ie for social reasons and couldn't give a toss about competitions and and haven't even heard about Cerocscotland.

Gadget is NOT a lone voice, he may, in fact be speaking on behalf of the SILENT MAJORITY. Good on you Gadget, you may not be the world's best speller but you make you point most eloquently !! :worthy:

The BIG mistake some people make on this Forum is in assuming that they speak on behalf of everybody in the UK and not as is actually the case, on behalf of '80%' of those who actually bother to read through this diatribe and feel sufficiently motivated to respond ! Me? Well I have a life to get on with !!
Bye for now,
:hug:
Heather,
XX

Dreadful Scathe
30th-December-2004, 12:56 PM
:D To be fair to Andy though, he did say '80% of people who responded'. Polls and threads like this are fine as long as we never assume we are speaking for anyone other than the people who actually responded to the poll :) (and thats assuming they were taking it seriously). I'm familiar with Andys concise style of writing and he often sounds like he's stating fact, just as Gadget sounds like he's being argumentative all the time :) I would hope people don't take these conversations TOO seriously. It makes me wonder how I come across to people who read MY posts :).

Andy McGregor
30th-December-2004, 01:54 PM
Can't let this pass!!
80% of the people who 'responded' to the poll think its a good idea. That's just great ..... but what about the people who have read through this self indulgent crap and haven't bothered to respond ( any idea what % of the Forum membership that might be!!) I for one have not bothered to respond to this poll and I know that lots of people who were original members of the CerocScotland Forum no longer bother to contribute either.
Anyway, I'm not only talking about the 1200 members of this Forum, surely you can't propose to think and speak on behalf of those people who go along to Modern Jive just to have a good time ie for social reasons and couldn't give a toss about competitions and and haven't even heard about Cerocscotland.

Gadget is NOT a lone voice, he may, in fact be speaking on behalf of the SILENT MAJORITY. Good on you Gadget, you may not be the world's best speller but you make you point most eloquently !! :worthy:

The BIG mistake some people make on this Forum is in assuming that they speak on behalf of everybody in the UK and not as is actually the case, on behalf of '80%' of those who actually bother to read through this diatribe and feel sufficiently motivated to respond ! Me? Well I have a life to get on with !!
Bye for now,
:hug:
Heather,
XX

This seems to me to be an unnecessary attack on me. I quoted actual figures and qualified them. I was talking to people who are reading this thread and have voted on it, so was Gadget. We've got a debate going on here and there is absolutely no need for someone to rubbish our debate because there's not many people debating this subject.

I speak for myself and express my own views, so does everyone else on here. Gadget doesn't speak for the silent majority and neither does Heather - how could anyone speak for the silent majority if they haven't heard from them :confused:

It seems to me that Heather has an an opinion on this subject but prefers to pick fights and tell us what's wrong with our opinions rather than air her own. Come on Heather, let's hear what you think. To fail to vote in a poll and then complain about the result is sheer hypocisy.

stewart38
30th-December-2004, 02:52 PM
Whatever it is, over 80% of people who responded to the poll thought it would be fab :clap:

This time Gadget is almost a lone voice in thinking there is no need for something like the MJDA.

But the pole was a silly pole and bias

I voted

"I think this is a silly idea - but I think Divissima is lovely" as it was the only 'catergory' availble

I dont want to see Jive/ceroc go the route of ball room dancing

Banana Man
30th-December-2004, 04:31 PM
Whatever it is, over 80% of people who responded to the poll thought it would be fab

This time Gadget is almost a lone voice in thinking there is no need for something like the MJDA. Yes and no, although this thread has been well read, there's not been too many contributors, and only 30+ voters, not sure if it's really representative of Cerocers, let alone MJers, but it's a start...


But the pole was a silly pole and bias

I voted

"I think this is a silly idea - but I think Divissima is lovely" as it was the only 'catergory' availble

I dont want to see Jive/ceroc go the route of ball room dancing Most polls are silly, what would you have liked to have voted if you could have picked your own category? Why wouldn't you like to see MJ go the route of BD?

------------

If, as some seem to think, there is a need for an MJDA (or maybe an MJCompetitorsA) what would people like it to do or lobby for? - this might help Divissima if she's still trying to draw thoughts together. I suggest keeping it simple, no more than three one-liners, and I might as well start.

1. Publish competition results including judges marks, recalls etc.
2. Define eligibility for different categories/experience levels in competitions
3. Work out how to create more competitions - possibly at a local level.

Hmmm, these are all competition related - oops.

E

Dreadful Scathe
30th-December-2004, 05:03 PM
Whatever it is, over 80% of people who responded to the poll thought it would be fab

This time Gadget is almost a lone voice in thinking there is no need for something like the MJDA.

Yes and no, although this thread has been well read, there's not been too many contributors, and only 30+ voters, not sure if it's really representative of Cerocers, let alone MJers, but it's a start...


He never said it was, he was talking about the 80% who responded and saying Gadget was a lone voice speaking against those respondents - which he is! So its 100% representative of this particular group of people*. I wish people would read things first ;).




* The group being - those who read and took part in this poll regardless of the fact that they may have been drunk or on drugs at the time.

Dreadful Scathe
30th-December-2004, 05:11 PM
I voted

"I think this is a silly idea - but I think Divissima is lovely" as it was the only 'catergory' availble

I dont want to see Jive/ceroc go the route of ball room dancing

Hmm so you don't like the idea, so presumably you think its a silly idea. You picked "I think this is a silly idea - but I think Divissima is lovely" but complained that it was "the only catagory available", but as you DO think the idea is silly, that option should be perfect UNLESS YOU DONT THINK DIVISSIMA IS LOVELY. I think thats uncalled for. Especially at this time of year :(. I'm afraid Sir, I shall have to ask you to step outside :).*





* cos Toby could come in at any minute and it'll be better if you're outside ( here take a nice wooly jumper) as things could turn nasty - hes an animal, ANIMAL! purr! purr! :)

stewart38
30th-December-2004, 05:30 PM
Why wouldn't you like to see MJ go the route of BD?

------------

E

qu) why was ceroc started ?

we going to go full circle in next 5yrs. :whistle:

Minnie M
1st-January-2005, 08:47 PM
Last night dancing on a very sticky floor I hurt my knee, must have twisted it somehow today I am in quite a bit of pain and therefore can not go dancing (not sure if I could drive too)

Could a MJDA help in this situation and if so how ? And would I have to be a paid up subscribing member to get this advise/help ?

Gadget
2nd-January-2005, 12:08 AM
Whatever it is, over 80% of people who responded to the poll thought it would be fab
This time Gadget is almost a lone voice in thinking there is no need for something like the MJDA.
And the only one who has provided a decent argument for it is below! I dont think that 80% of the respondants actually thought it would be "fab" because I don't think that 80% of those people actually thought.
{:devil: - come on then, what EXACTLY makes this a good idea? what do you expect it to acheive? how do you think these goals will be reached?}


But the organisers might think twice about a venue with an unsuitable floor if they knew it wasn't going to be MJDA approved.
? as you say, they might. But they might also take heed to one or two individuals who say it's a bad floor. They might be aware of the floor beforee hand. They might take steps to improve the floor before the event. I don't see how the influence of an MJDA would be more influencial than these one or two individuals.


Oh for God's sake! It's just an example!
And thank you for giving it - any more? The lack of mike is sometimes due to technical hitches or unforseable curcumstances. And how many people do you need before a mike is obligatory? Or do you need one to talk over the music? If so, isn't the music a bit loud?

Some venues definitely "pack 'em in" beyond what is particularly safe, and certainly beyond what is enjoyable. I avoid such places, and a way of finding out about them and avoiding them would be a good thing IMHO. But again, it was just an example.
Indeed, and how do you know that it wasn't a one off? If it wasn't, what could a MJDA do about it? I happen to know of one venue I think on as too crowded, but it is such because it is popular and has a great atmosphere. Would the MJDA want to shut it down?


Lots of things 'could' happen. Have they? Where's the URL for events with sprung wooden non-crowded dance floors?
Lots of bad things could happen without the MJDA's fight to prevent them. Have they? Is the floor and the press of bodies the most important thing of an evening's entertainment? Do you want the MJDA to dictate that too? MJDA approved DJ's? Floors? Level of dancer? Level of dancer granted admittance? When it will start and end?(must allow those who travel time to get there and back) Who is to have fun and who is not?
Why bother with individual organisers? Why not have an MJDA that organises events and screens everything?


Again, we're getting to the 'coulds' and 'cans'. I grant you Ceroc is big enough to "do it itself". But for the smaller groups, it makes more sense to pool resources rather than each trying to work things out separately.
Hmmm.... let me see, competing organisers working to make their competitor's event better than theirs... can you really see it? :rolleyes:

You know, for an organisation you don't think would do anything, you seem to be awfully strongly against it!
I don't like to be dictated to about what I can and can't do. Where I can and can't go. What competition I can and can't enter. What moves I can and can't do. Especially when it would be headed by a minority who would claim to act for the majority. Just because the majority don't dissagree, does not mean that they agree. 26 people out of the population of MJ dancers is not a representative majority.


What it actually does depends a lot on whether it ever comes into existance, and who gets involved. My concern is that it seems frequent competitors are the main activists, and that it will focus very much on competitions to the exclusion of the 99% of MJ that is social dance. To which end, it would seem a good thing if social dancers, teachers and organisers who care passionately about the direction of MJ would be involved.
To do what?

It would be a 'private club' that only those who had a grevance would join, in the hope that it would sort something out for them instead of going direct to the source. How is this a good thing?