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View Full Version : Justifiable Competition techniques



Gus
16th-December-2004, 03:25 PM
There are a few areas in the country where, unfortunatley, clubs are in such close proximity that competition for punters is inevitable.

For the most part dance ettiquette has kept such competition from getting too severe (e.g. its frowned upon to flyer opponents venues etc.). However, in a normal competitive situation, it would be expected to promote your venues/teacher/music as being better than comptitor Y's. I havent seen much of this type of competition till recently when I noticed an independant website advertising they had the best teacher and the best club night in their area.

Ignoring whether or not such claims are true ... is this an allowable form of competition? Have you seen more aggresive (and/or succesfull) tactics?

bigdjiver
16th-December-2004, 03:51 PM
There are a few areas in the country where, unfortunatley, clubs are in such close proximity that competition for punters is inevitable.

For the most part dance ettiquette has kept such competition from getting too severe (e.g. its frowned upon to flyer opponents venues etc.). However, in a normal competitive situation, it would be expected to promote your venues/teacher/music as being better than comptitor Y's. I havent seen much of this type of competition till recently when I noticed an independant website advertising they had the best teacher and the best club night in their area.

Ignoring whether or not such claims are true ... is this an allowable form of competition? Have you seen more aggresive (and/or succesfull) tactics?

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3.1 Before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation.
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Advertising Standards Authority CAP Code (http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/codes/cap_code/ShowCode.htm?clause_id=1489)

Chicklet
16th-December-2004, 03:57 PM
However, in a normal competitive situation, it would be expected to promote your venues/teacher/music as being better than comptitor Y's.

Personally I just think it's pretty pointless...it's no different to phone companies or washing powder, they both try and tell you that they are "the best" or "better" but "best" is SUCH a subjective phenomenon that it doesn't hold any sway at all!

Tell me where, and when, and possibly how much, tell me what you do that makes you different to anyone else (USP :wink: ) or tell me what you do that makes sure I will get what are the basic requirements for your product and if I'm in the mood and area I will try it and decide for myself!!

Gus
16th-December-2004, 03:58 PM
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3.1 Before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation.
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Ooops ... so I wonder how this organisation is going to prove their point? Mind you ... they also claim to be a major competition winner ... which is striclty true ... as they were the only entrant :sick:

MartinHarper
16th-December-2004, 04:00 PM
3.1 Before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation.

"The best" isn't capable of objective substantiation, so they wouldn't need to hold any evidence. In any case, the ASA is pretty toothless.

bigdjiver
16th-December-2004, 04:02 PM
Trading standards (http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/bglitem.cgi?file=BADV042-1111.txt)

Trading Standards - Web (http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/bglitem.cgi?file=BADV065-1111.txt)

Magic Hans
16th-December-2004, 04:11 PM
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3.1 Before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation.
---------------------------------------

Advertising Standards Authority CAP Code (http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/codes/cap_code/ShowCode.htm?clause_id=1489)

Is this why Calsberg is always advertised as "probably the best"?

It would make sense! I seem to remember a few years ago Volvo were apparently going to advertise their cars as the safest (arguably not wonderfully easy to define), Mercedes were going to take them to court if they did!!

So ... don't know! .... as chicklet says, pretty pointless really. I might go once ... and I certainly will make up my own mind. Being advertised as the best with any sort of reasoning would generally put me off more than attract me!

Ian

Andreas
16th-December-2004, 11:04 PM
I think the best way to advertise your venture is by showing what you can do. Don't confuse it with showing off. Just go there and dance and when somebody likes your style they WILL ask and then you tell them. Putting out flyers at the competition is sad and to me neither ethical nor convincing. I want to see people to find out if there is substance or just hot air.

:yeah:

Chicklet
16th-December-2004, 11:20 PM
I think the best way to advertise your venture is by showing what you can do.
Interesting point, and I have to admit not one I had thought to relate to this subject - to what extent do y'all think the way someone LOOKS dancing is a product of WHERE they dance?

And would anyone else make (what is for me) the leap from "I do like that person's style / moves/ goove" to "must find out where they dance and go to that night"?

So, Andreas are you thinking of class nights, freestyles or both?
With class nights we have pages and pages mostly agreeing that a fab dancer to look at is not necessarily a goos teacher - would you assume they are?

And are you thinking I must go to that night to learn how to do that like them, or *just* to be able to watch and enjoy more of the same?

interested. :grin:

Andreas
16th-December-2004, 11:28 PM
Interesting point, and I have to admit not one I had thought to relate to this subject - to what extent do y'all think the way someone LOOKS dancing is a product of WHERE they dance?

Not solely but to some extent, yes. You have to learn it somewhere.


And would anyone else make (what is for me) the leap from "I do like that person's style / moves/ goove" to "must find out where they dance and go to that night"?

Yes, people have done that and driven 160km in fact.


So, Andreas are you thinking of class nights, freestyles or both?
With class nights we have pages and pages mostly agreeing that a fab dancer to look at is not necessarily a goos teacher - would you assume they are?

I'd say both. If a teacher participates in a class he/she can make an impression with leading/following/style and actually address all of the opposite sex as they rotate. If a person is really as good as they think then in freestyle people will notice them and also ask.


And are you thinking I must go to that night to learn how to do that like them, or *just* to be able to watch and enjoy more of the same?

I have been driving hundreds of k's to learn from people that I wanted to learn from ;)

Chicklet
16th-December-2004, 11:49 PM
k's

hmmm poster gives away that he is either under 25 or of foreign extraction :wink: where'd I put that Telegraph and those nice old slippers

seriously, all very valid points....turn it on it's head.....can anyone profess to spot an eg "Northwich style" and guess where anyone dances from how they look??

Or from how they feel??

I can report that a gentleman at Southport, after one track and no speaking, asked me, pretty much rhetorically, if I was one of the Scots Lasses....which I have to say delighted me!! and I said well maybe a wee bit, but on balance more Franck's than Scot's, which then lost something in 5 mins explanation...sigh.

Andreas
17th-December-2004, 12:09 AM
hmmm poster gives away that he is either under 25 or of foreign extraction :wink: where'd I put that Telegraph and those nice old slippers

Well, I have just moved over here a few months ago from NZ :waycool:

Believe it or not, I was able to tell you where in NZ people had learnt, on the North Island I could tell you the franchise, and SI dancers I recognised by the fact that they did not fit into the NI styles. :rofl:

Sure, it'd be foolish to say I could do that at 100% rate but that was not the issue anyway. It was not about recognising a style, it was about approaching that person and asking ;)

Dazzle
17th-December-2004, 06:01 AM
Not sure about the spotting style thing, but I think people would and do go to a venue having danced or seen someone at their venue from that venue. True?

Be honest ladies, I have read many of your comments on this forum! :wink:

Bangers & Mash
17th-December-2004, 09:30 AM
So where is the best venue in Chester then? :innocent:

As for marketing surely they could get away with phrases like

1. "some of the best dancers I have ever seen"
2. "probably the best night out you will ever have in ... "
3. "I was amazed by what we covered in one night"
4. "taught by dance competition winners"

all of these can be substantiated

1. subjective
2. probably (clever old carlsberg - everytime I say probably I think carlsberg!)
3. subjective
4. it may only be a local competition held one night with just those entrants - but if they won then it is correct!

as for the web site - well you have to be up your own @rse on your own website - it's your opportunity to sell your product!

Andreas
17th-December-2004, 10:02 AM
So where is the best venue in Chester then? :innocent:

As for marketing surely they could get away with phrases like

1. "some of the best dancers I have ever seen"
2. "probably the best night out you will ever have in ... "
3. "I was amazed by what we covered in one night"
4. "taught by dance competition winners"


4) I would not know why somebody puts emphasis on that one. I'd rather be trained by their trainers ;)

Gus
17th-December-2004, 10:41 AM
As for marketing surely they could get away with phrases like

1. "some of the best dancers I have ever seen"
2. "probably the best night out you will ever have in ... "
3. "I was amazed by what we covered in one night"
4. "taught by dance competition winners"

Interesting line of thought. For our venue we could use;



Teacher is the most succesfull Competition dancer in the North West
The most experienced DJ in the region
One of the best venues oin the North
The best dancers in the North
Best set-up for teaching beginners
The best music for more experinced dancers
ALL true ... but would it make you come to our venue? (and doesnt it all sound a bit naff :sick: )

Will
17th-December-2004, 11:28 AM
Interesting line of thought. For our venue we could use;

Teacher is the most succesfull Competition dancer in the North West
The most experienced DJ in the region
One of the best venues oin the North
The best dancers in the North
Best set-up for teaching beginners
The best music for more experinced dancers
ALL true ... but would it make you come to our venue? (and doesnt it all sound a bit naff :sick: )
The reasons that everyone should come to Monday Night Jango are:-

The cheapest beer in any dance venue
£1.80 per pint of Kronenbourg 1664
The cheapest beer in any dance venue
Free parking (for anyone foolish enough to drive to a venue where beer is so cheap!)
The cheapest beer in any dance venue
The only venue where the DJ's clothes are louder than his music
Satellite TV with Monday Night Football in adjacent room
Separate room where AndyMac can smoke spliff!
The cheapest beer in any dance venue
Stunning looking balletic dance teacher
Kate's not bad either
Alled Jones, regular visitor, quoted as saying "My, that's cheap beer"
Next MNJ on 10th Jan will be totally free to get in for everyone (except GUS who runs a competing venue, the same night, within 200 miles of us)
Very cheap beer
The only dance venue where DavidB gets a round in

Simon r
17th-December-2004, 11:45 AM
Will, point 15 is a lie

Andy McGregor
17th-December-2004, 01:12 PM
Ignoring whether or not such claims are true ... is this an allowable form of competition? Have you seen more aggresive (and/or succesfull) tactics?

Here are 2 of the things I've seen recently.

One of the Brighton organisers (A) visits events with pockets full of his flyers. He folds them up small like Rizla cigarette papers and slips them into people's hands like a sleazy drug pusher.

Another local organiser (B) bans the other local organisers (including me :tears: ) but he has no qualms about turning up to other people's events :confused:

Is organiser be a hypocrite or am I imagining it?

My own point of view is that people will recognise the sneaky, sleazy, unethical, dishonest, etc organisers and stay away. But, that's only the experienced dancers who know all the gossip. The beginners know no better so they might go where people claim to be the best - it's up to us old hands to put them straight.

Gus
17th-December-2004, 01:23 PM
..... it's up to us old hands to put them straight.Dangerous grounds ... I tried to do a mild version of that on this forum some time back and got flamed to hell :sick:

Feelingpink
17th-December-2004, 01:29 PM
Here are 2 of the things I've seen recently.

One of the Brighton organisers (A) visits events with pockets full of his flyers. He folds them up small like Rizla cigarette papers and slips them into people's hands like a sleazy drug pusher.


My own point of view is that people will recognise the sneaky, sleazy, unethical, dishonest, etc organisers and stay away. But, that's only the experienced dancers who know all the gossip. The beginners know no better so they might go where people claim to be the best - it's up to us old hands to put them straight.

Surely, even someone who doesn't know "all the gossip" would think twice about going to an event which is being promoted by the Rizla-style fliers?

ChrisA
17th-December-2004, 01:30 PM
The only dance venue where DavidB gets a round in

I didn't know he played golf.

Chef
17th-December-2004, 06:07 PM
Here are 2 of the things I've seen recently.

One of the Brighton organisers (A) visits events with pockets full of his flyers. He folds them up small like Rizla cigarette papers and slips them into people's hands like a sleazy drug pusher.

Another local organiser (B) bans the other local organisers (including me :tears: ) but he has no qualms about turning up to other people's events :confused:

Is organiser be a hypocrite or am I imagining it?

My own point of view is that people will recognise the sneaky, sleazy, unethical, dishonest, etc organisers and stay away. But, that's only the experienced dancers who know all the gossip. The beginners know no better so they might go where people claim to be the best - it's up to us old hands to put them straight.

That depends.

If you go to his venues and promote your venue to his dancers then he may feel justified to ban you. He is a hypocrite if he then goes to other venues and promotes his venue to the dancers there. He is not a hypocrite if he just goes and dances at other organisers’ venues. This brings us to the fine point of what is promoting. If the organiser is at another venue and is asked the direct question “You teach at XXXX don’t you?” Is he promoting if he just says yes?

The situation in Brighton has been silly for a while with the two organisers putting on events near each other on the same night as a spoiling tactic. Unfortunately this sort of shenanigans doesn’t sit well with people who have been dancing a while and many say “a pox on both your houses”. As we are quite spoilt for choice around here and are willing to travel for a superior product, the dancers that are after that evening that is better than average flock to (and tell others about) the superior product. It has just resulted in these two warring organisers battling over a small number of beginners and die hard loyalists. People are savvy enough to see how organisers conduct themselves and work out that this is the likely treatment that will be meted out on them.

Why not just promote your venue by offering a different or superior product? Word will quickly spread. Hipsters offered a different and superior product and their fame has spread and I don’t remember them doing any aggressive promotion tactics. Gus is now trying to do the same (bless his heart and more power to his elbow) up in the North (I think I did some airsteps on Gus at Beach Boogie this year). When supply exceeds demand you must find another niche. Sell a different thing or different quality. But any way you like to put it, people will judge you by your actions to others.

It is not up to us to tell the beginners since that would be promoting another venue while you are in that venue would (IMHO) justify a ban. If someone asks you where you like to go to dance you are just answering a direct question with an honest answer. I have found that when beginners stop being beginners then they start asking those sorts of questions.

Yliander
18th-December-2004, 10:59 AM
seriously, all very valid points....turn it on it's head.....can anyone profess to spot an eg "Northwich style" and guess where anyone dances from how they look?? I can do that here in Australia - as the major companies have quite distinctive sytles and watching comp videos will often enquire does so & so dances at X company - usually have picked it right. It is generally most obvious with beginner/intermediate dancers - advanced dancers have generally developed their own style so not so obvious

Andy McGregor
18th-December-2004, 11:52 AM
That depends.

If you go to his venues and promote your venue to his dancers then he may feel justified to ban you. He is a hypocrite if he then goes to other venues and promotes his venue to the dancers there. He is not a hypocrite if he just goes and dances at other organisers’ venues.

This particular guy banned me when I told him I was starting up a venue. In an attempt to keep things friendly, I told the local organisers what I was doing before I did any promotion at all - the reaction I got was "you'll understand it if I ask you not to attend my venues now we're in competition" (of course, I wasn't aware of the sub-text which was "I will continue to go wherever I like if organisers are soft enough to let me in". So, I didn't even get a chance to go to his venues to promote or not promote my venue. And, to make matters worse, he attended LeRoc in Dorking where Neil Hiller also teaches and tried to poach Neil from me :tears: And now my crew are also banned by this guy - will he ban my customers next?

p.s. I regularly invite this guy to my events offering him free entry :flower:

bigdjiver
18th-December-2004, 03:03 PM
Interesting line of thought. For our venue we could use;



Teacher is the most succesfull Competition dancer in the North West
The most experienced DJ in the region
One of the best venues oin the North
The best dancers in the North
Best set-up for teaching beginners
The best music for more experinced dancers
ALL true ... but would it make you come to our venue? (and doesnt it all sound a bit naff :sick: )

:devil: Very naff. It would deter me coming to your venue - I would assume that you should know that good dancers do not necessarily make good teachers, experience can mean stuck in a rut, "best dancers" is subjective, and best set up for beginners contradicts best music for more experienced dancers. [ /Devil ]

You already have good marketing in the name (##) Just promote the odd specific event, such as guest teachers, champions demos, live bands, competitions, gear sales, whatever, just to get new customers to bite. If they like what they see, they'll be back.

When I was in business I had the maxim "my customers are my salesmen".

## A name helps to create the image. I remember almost getting sucked in by "Casbah", then deterred by Baden Powell House. It was a good night, though overcrowded, when I eventually got there.)

jivecat
18th-December-2004, 04:17 PM
Interesting line of thought. For our venue we could use;



Teacher is the most succesfull Competition dancer in the North West
The most experienced DJ in the region
One of the best venues oin the North
The best dancers in the North
Best set-up for teaching beginners
The best music for more experinced dancers
ALL true ... but would it make you come to our venue? (and doesnt it all sound a bit naff :sick: )


Well, as I was reading I was thinking that I really should make the effort to drive up to erm, Northwich (fingers crossed) 'cos it sounded really good.

But then I'm the sort of person who will buy anything from Safeway just because it's got a vast orange sticker with "GOOD VALUE" plastered all over it.

Gus
18th-December-2004, 04:30 PM
But then I'm the sort of person who will buy anything from Safeway just because it's got a vast orange sticker with "GOOD VALUE" plastered all over it.Ahh ... did I mention that there are also free massages, the streets are paved with gold, ALL your favourite tracks will be played and the instructor will personally tell you what a fantastic dancer you are ......... probably

jivecat
18th-December-2004, 04:43 PM
Ahh ... did I mention that there are also free massages, the streets are paved with gold, ALL your favourite tracks will be played and the instructor will personally tell you what a fantastic dancer you are ......... probably



SOLD!!!

(And please don't neg rep me for a content-free one word post, whoever it was. Well, you might as well, I've not got much to lose now.)

Chef
20th-December-2004, 03:28 PM
This particular guy banned me when I told him I was starting up a venue. In an attempt to keep things friendly, I told the local organisers what I was doing before I did any promotion at all - the reaction I got was "you'll understand it if I ask you not to attend my venues now we're in competition" (of course, I wasn't aware of the sub-text which was "I will continue to go wherever I like if organisers are soft enough to let me in". So, I didn't even get a chance to go to his venues to promote or not promote my venue. And, to make matters worse, he attended LeRoc in Dorking where Neil Hiller also teaches and tried to poach Neil from me :tears: And now my crew are also banned by this guy - will he ban my customers next?

p.s. I regularly invite this guy to my events offering him free entry :flower:

This person has every right to say who he will allow or not allow into his private members club. The fact that he may be banning you for erroneous reasons is up to him but it goes to show that he doesn't know you that well. He just sees that you will be taking custom from him and he doesn't feel in the frame of mind to up his game to ensure that that loss of custom is small.

It seems rather harsh that he is also banning your crew but if he feels you will be a recruiting officer for your venues he has to (perhaps wrongly) assume your crew will be as well.

Perhaps you should let him know who your customers are (ones that are also his) so that he has the opportunity to ban them as well and thereby cut off his own nose to spite his face. :devil:

I am not sure, but I suspect that Neil Hillier may be a free agent and is free to be approached by anyone. I am sure that Neil will be able to assess if this person is someone that he wants to have dealings with. I always work on the idea that is someone will behave badly to another person then they will probably behave badly towards me.

I have no idea what you get out of letting this person into your venues for free (apart from a bit of "turn the other cheek"). If he wants to come and see how it should be done he should pay for the experience. :devil:

Nigel Anderson runs/crews at Hipsters and many other events but I haven't heard of anyone banning him from anywhere.

Gus
20th-December-2004, 04:26 PM
Nigel Anderson runs/crews at Hipsters and many other events but I haven't heard of anyone banning him from anywhere.Ahem ... I believe that common folklore (and therefore this may or may not be true) has it that Nigel still has a copy of the letter from Ceroc HQ banning him :whistle: ..... not sure if that is still the case under the new regime?

Gus
20th-December-2004, 05:04 PM
Ahem ... I believe that common folklore (and therefore this may or may not be true) has it that Nigel still has a copy of the letter from Ceroc HQ banning him :whistle: ..... not sure if that is still the case under the new regime?I've been reliably informed from one of my learned Southern amigos that Nigel has been at Ceroc events for a considerable period .... even before the new regime. Its nice to see that despite 'differences' there has been no nabbing. As such I'd like to withdraw my previous dig .... it was meant in jest but I can see how it could be offensive to some (and I dont want the 'Peace Lovng' protesters from the Birmingham Rep to come down to 'peacefully' try stone me and breaking my windows on the grounds of tolerance.) For those of you who havent heard the Sikh Community has managed to close down the play at the Birmingham Rep by intimidation and violence .... YEEEAHHHH score one for peacefull religions against the Freedom of Speech :mad: