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Dreadful Scathe
16th-December-2004, 10:28 AM
This is the time of year where people write into newspapers and complain that too many of us 'forget the reason' for the season. But is Christmas a religious or secular holiday and what should it be? Fill in the poll and post away.

Dreadful Scathe
16th-December-2004, 10:35 AM
Not many would disagree its too commercial regardless of how they feel about the reason for Christmas. I saw my first Christmas advert in the middle of October :)

Andy McGregor
16th-December-2004, 10:51 AM
Not many would disagree its too commercial regardless of how they feel about the reason for Christmas. I saw my first Christmas advert in the middle of October :)

IMHO nothing can be too commercial for the majority. My reasoning is that the market moves to meet consumer demand so the majority of the public get what they want. And they seem to want the level of commercialisation that we currently enjoy.

What we can say for sure is that Christmas is too commercial for some people - probably a minority. And some of those people whinge about the commercialisation of Christmas. What I say is that there's too much whinging about the commercialisation of Christmas and that makes us question the way we enjoy our own Christmas :tears: Please enjoy your own Christmas the way you want to - but you have no right to tell other people how to enjoy theirs :devil:

One thing that does get me though is the length of Christmas. It is one single day but we get no choice but to have it last between 4 and 11 days! We all enjoy the holiday in our own way, but lets not fool ourselves that it's anything but a holiday with Christmas in there somewhere.

Am I whinging about whinging? Does that make me a hypocrite?

under par
16th-December-2004, 11:07 AM
There is virtually no religion in Christamas these days. It all revolves around money.
Do you hear on the news any religious comment regarding the upcoming event?

No.

Do you hear repeated droans about the high street stores struggling to move there stock, having to have earlier and earlier sales to compete?

Yes .

Has anybody heard any child recently mention religion and Christmas in the same breath?

Unlikely.

I bet we have all heard children asking for bikes, mp3 players, video games, playstaion this, xbox that.

Do any toys children "want" for Christmas cost less than £30 anymore?

Christmas is a time for giving and a special time for children but are we adults extolling the "giving" aspect to the children?

I don't think so we are just "giving in" to pester power?


Television advertising is such a corrupting influence on the children when are we going stand up and be counted.
Ban all toy adverts on television :yeah: :yeah:

I am not a particularly religious person myself but I am becoming an anti-commercialism sort of person.

(if there is such a word)

Maybe it part getting old?

Rant now over...................

Andy McGregor
16th-December-2004, 11:21 AM
I am becoming an anti-commercialism sort of person.


There is a simple answer to this, stop shopping. The shops will stop selling, the commercialisation will end.

And of course there's not much in the news about the religious side of Christmas. It happenned over 2,000 years ago and we've already heard about it. Although if you go here (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/) you might wonder if the news is true.

Graham
16th-December-2004, 11:25 AM
I personally think that Christmas has got too commercial, but I try to ignore that rather than be one of the whingers Andy mentioned! I think it is unhealthy for us as a society to be bringing up children to value consumerism above all else, and to get into so much debt in an effort to keep up with the profligate spending the advertisers try to convince us is necessary to enjoy this time of year.

Sparkles
16th-December-2004, 11:27 AM
And of course there's not much in the news about the religious side of Christmas. It happenned over 2,000 years ago and we've already heard about it.

And, apparently, not on 25th December....

There are lots of reasons why people celebrate in the middle of winter - some because it's Christmas and some for other reasons. Personally any event that means I get to spend time with my friends and family is an asset in my book - if you have the chance to show people you love them, why not? :flower:

Let everyone celebrate (or not) in their own way, I agree with that sentiment. :cheers:

Aleks
16th-December-2004, 12:06 PM
......
Ban all toy adverts on television :yeah: :yeah:


You could always ban TV. Try unplugging it for a week and spending time with each other instead. You might even find you enjoy playing all the games you spend so much money on!

Dreadful Scathe
16th-December-2004, 12:13 PM
You cant ignore the commercialism of Christmas. I wouldnt say I whinge about it but its not something you can miss, 99% of households have a TV so even if you miss the build up yourself, nearly everyone you meet has seen a Chirstmas advert before Novemeber has even started. Id disagree with Andy suggesting its purely down to 'what the public want' - the shops want to make more money and its them that have increased the build up. I would think the majority of shoppers do not like the massive commercialisation but not enough that they want to stop shopping - the kids are a different matter they are bombarded with Christmas as a commercial enterprise - so even if they were brought up as religious they 'money money moeny' aspect will soon overshadow that for a lot of em.

Which reminds me - Radio Forth had a phone in ther other day and apparantly some people would expect to spend at least £500 on a partner for a christmas present ?

What would the rest of you spend on people?

Lou
16th-December-2004, 12:25 PM
When people talk about having a religious Christmas, they're normally refering to the birth of the baby Jesus & all the related Christian celebrations. However, it's important to remember that many people celebrated religious festivals prior to Christianity.

There was the festival of Saturnalia, celebrated by the ancient Romans who spent it relaxing with friends and family whilst eating & drinking a lot.

Of course, it also falls at the same time as the Winter Solstice, when ancient pagan societies in our Northern countries celebrated the lengthening days & forthcoming end of winter by ...errrmmm.... drinking & feasting.

So - I say - let's just celebrate Christmas in the old traditional fashions! :wink:

Graham
16th-December-2004, 01:12 PM
Which reminds me - Radio Forth had a phone in ther other day and apparantly some people would expect to spend at least £500 on a partner for a christmas present ?
Obviously I have different budgets for different people. Taking my partner specifically, this year we decided to buy a "big" present jointly for each other, so we've set a limit of £10 for something to open on Christmas Day. Normally the budget would be £50 - anything more than this then I think you should be discussing it with each other before you buy!

Gus
16th-December-2004, 02:37 PM
Please enjoy your own Christmas the way you want to - but you have no right to tell other people how to enjoy theirs :devil: HOLD ON!! How can you claim to celebrate Christmas when you obviously disregard what its fundamentaly about. If you feel a need to indulge in commercial overload .. .fair enough ... but Christmas is an extremely significant and devout religious occasion. Your Christmas??? Sorry, but that sounds like pure hypocrisy!

Chicklet
16th-December-2004, 02:45 PM
Which reminds me - Radio Forth had a phone in ther other day and apparantly some people would expect to spend at least £500 on a partner for a christmas present ?

£490 of which is of course on things that one wants one's self :D
'specially if the partner lives with one :devil:

Dreadful Scathe
16th-December-2004, 03:12 PM
HOLD ON!! How can you claim to celebrate Christmas when you obviously disregard what its fundamentaly about. If you feel a need to indulge in commercial overload .. .fair enough ... but Christmas is an extremely significant and devout religious occasion. Your Christmas??? Sorry, but that sounds like pure hypocrisy!

Thats the point of this thread though Gus. To many Christmas is just the label for the holiday period and has no association with Christianity beyond the name used. As people have mentioned there has always been winter festivals and holidays, religious or not, and thats not likely to change in the next milennia. People will decide for themselves what Christmas is about, all of the poll options are valid but several people have already ticked more than one. These people may celebrate Christmas without having any interest in Christ.


Obviously I have different budgets for different people

Yup, and £50 is about the right amount for your partner too, unless she needs/wants something specific, which can happen at ANY time of the year :)
Luckily I dont have an extravagant set of family and friends - if I was to spend £10 on everyone we buy presents for its just shy of £400, and some get way more than that of course :). Hey I'm not cheap, but I'm not rich either ;)

Rachel
16th-December-2004, 05:13 PM
£490 of which is of course on things that one wants one's self :D
'specially if the partner lives with one :devil: Absolutely!! I'll easily spend around £300 on my partner for Christmas. But ... while that may sound extravagent - I have very few relatives to buy for, we are extremely careful with money the rest of the year, we never buy presents for each other any other time except birthdays, and a lot of these presents are for 'joint' or 'household' things, so they don't really count.

I mean - I only ever buy CD's, for example, at Christmas so I'll buy at least half a dozen for Marc as part of his present (of course they're ones I like, too) and that's £100 gone in one shot. Then I buy loads and loads of silly little/practical things like shower gels, etc.

The idea is basically to have hundreds of individually and imaginatively wrapped presents (which takes me about 7 hours to wrap) to make the present opening on Christmas day go on for about 5 hours, alongside the champagne and new CD's playing ... It's wonderful!

Religious, me? No way ....!! But I love the excuse of Christmas, the time off work, just the two of us together, etc etc, and have no intention of feeling guilty for enjoying it the way I do.
Rachel

Chicklet
16th-December-2004, 05:59 PM
just a tiny little addendum - *soppy bit warning* my £490 really isn't half as selfish as it might sound to some - the point it that, if you live with someone you think the world of (Marc and Rachael a great example as far as I can tell :worthy: ) then the REASON you think the world of them is often because you share the same likes and values so any STUFF you treat yourselves to will be equally appreciated by both! :D

Rachel
16th-December-2004, 06:13 PM
just a tiny little addendum - *soppy bit warning* my £490 really isn't half as selfish as it might sound to some - the point it that, if you live with someone you think the world of (Marc and Rachael a great example as far as I can tell :worthy: ) then the REASON you think the world of them is often because you share the same likes and values so any STUFF you treat yourselves to will be equally appreciated by both! :D Oh yeah!! That's the best bit of buying Marc all the CD's I wanted!

He obviously doesn't know it yet, but one of Marc's presents is going to be some desperately needed bedroom curtains ... Of course he'll appreciate it - don't you think? And a huge bolster pillow for the sofa. Ok ok, I know they're not 'proper' presents as such, but it's more the fun of trying to hide them away til Chrismas, and wrap them up so they're disguised ... Things tend to get very very silly in our household at Christmas!
R.

azande
16th-December-2004, 08:32 PM
... it's more the fun of trying to hide them away til Chrismas, and wrap them up so they're disguised ... Things tend to get very very silly in our household at Christmas!
R. :eek: And I thought Aleks was unique! :what:

Divissima
16th-December-2004, 09:09 PM
HOLD ON!! How can you claim to celebrate Christmas when you obviously disregard what its fundamentaly about. If you feel a need to indulge in commercial overload .. .fair enough ... but Christmas is an extremely significant and devout religious occasion. Your Christmas??? Sorry, but that sounds like pure hypocrisy!I disagree with you here, Gus. The celebration of Christmas by Christians became amalgamated with and appropriated the symbolism of pre-Christian/pagan mid-winter solstice festivals in the early centuries of the Common Era. I personally don't think there's any hypocrisy in celebrating at Christmas time, even if your beliefs are not Christian.

[nicks ODA role for a moment]Surely Easter should be the more significiant and devout religious festival of the year, but all that fasting, ashes, confession, etc. is definitely less fun than presents under the tree and therefore excites less observance.[hands back ODA role]

Zuhal
16th-December-2004, 09:28 PM
Last year I spent 4 days over Christmas working in the CRISIS Shelter. Christmas Day saw over 1000 Visitors, looked after by, 250 Volunteers. Meals, clothes, advice centre, entertainment, internet cafe, kennels, medical facilities are provided for anyone and their dog who wants. Most of the Visitors are not homeless but lonely. It put Christmas into perspective for me and was the best Christmas Day I had had since I was a child.

This year CRISIS have been given The Dome which is handy because I always wanted to visit.

More information here http://www.crisis.org.uk/

Zuhal
PS Scratch a Volunteer and find a Visitor

jivecat
17th-December-2004, 12:19 AM
I disagree with you here, Gus. The celebration of Christmas by Christians became amalgamated with and appropriated the symbolism of pre-Christian/pagan mid-winter solstice festivals in the early centuries of the Common Era. I personally don't think there's any hypocrisy in celebrating at Christmas time, even if your beliefs are not Christian.

I agree with you, Divi. I think that lots of Christmas traditions, like lighting fires and bringing evergreens into the house have their roots in magic rituals designed to persuade nature to return to a state of warmth, growth and light.
Christian imagery still draws on that today, in the idea of the Light of the World being born at Christmastime. I've no problem with this somewhat mixed tradition.
I think that in Northern countries we have a psychological need for a winter festival. Think how grim these short days would be if we did not have the distraction of Christmas with all it's light and sparkle (even if it will all seem a bit tawdry by Boxing Day.) This morning was so gloomy I thought it was still the middle of the night when the alarm went off.

Hail the Sun of righteousness, I say. The sooner he arrives the better.



[nicks ODA role for a moment]Surely Easter should be the more significiant and devout religious festival of the year, but all that fasting, ashes, confession, etc. is definitely less fun than presents under the tree and therefore excites less observance.[hands back ODA role][/QUOTE]
Funny how just when nature gets joyful religion gets grim. It's the other way round at Christmas.

Gus
17th-December-2004, 01:09 AM
[nicks ODA role for a moment]Surely Easter should be the more significiant and devout religious festival of the year, but all that fasting, ashes, confession, etc. is definitely less fun than presents under the tree and therefore excites less observance.[hands back ODA role]
The 'fasting'; is a common misconception ... the idea is 'to do without somethhing' ... no fast per se. For Chritians its a CELEBRATION of the ressurection ... not a grim thing at all ... its fairly fiundamental ... a symbolisim of life after death, the power of Christ etc. etc. ... and from all this we celebrate with chocolate easter eggs????? :confused:

PS ... I'm no longer a practicing Catholic but I still have great empathy with those who follow the RC beliefs.

Bangers & Mash
17th-December-2004, 02:02 AM
Wow! what an interesting mixture of comments.

There seems to be a conflict between what christmas was and what christmas is and so I will simply say what christmas is to me.

First, let me disregard the pagan and christian celebration - this to me is "what christmas was".

Christmas is a time to take a breath and be nice to everybody - including myself. It is an opportunity to send a card or get in touch with people I haven't seen for years, it is an opportunity to do something for other people - like help out with the homeless, give money to charity or whatever and it is an opportune time to bury hatchets.

You could argue that we should all do this all the time - but let's be honest - we don't.

So what I treasure about xmas is it is an opportunity for me to forget all my worries, be nice to people, share a little happiness and take a day off from being me! - be the person I would like to be as opposed to the person I am.

If all that christmas achieves is people being nice to each other and themselves then surely that is a good thing. And for all the religious people out there - isn't that what god would have wanted. Did I miss the 11th commandment that said "thou shalt worship my birthday on the 25th December every year ad infinitum" - or was the real import of the message "be nice to each other and to yourself"

If one day is all that we can manage then so be it.

Stuart
17th-December-2004, 09:31 AM
I disagree with you here, Gus. The celebration of Christmas by Christians became amalgamated with and appropriated the symbolism of pre-Christian/pagan mid-winter solstice festivals in the early centuries of the Common Era. I personally don't think there's any hypocrisy in celebrating at Christmas time, even if your beliefs are not Christian.

[nicks ODA role for a moment]Surely Easter should be the more significiant and devout religious festival of the year, but all that fasting, ashes, confession, etc. is definitely less fun than presents under the tree and therefore excites less observance.[hands back ODA role]
:yeah:

Very little of what we today associate with Christmas actually has anything to do with celebrating the birth of Christ. It is suggested that 25th December itself was only chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ as the day the Romans chose to celebrate the birth of the god Mithras. The day was also celebrated by the Greeks and Egyptians as the births of various gods.

I once had the same argument with someone about Easter being more important for Christians and Christianity than Christmas.

Dreadful Scathe
17th-December-2004, 10:24 AM
I once had the same argument with someone about Easter being more important for Christians and Christianity than Christmas.


Easter too though, is another case of 'old holiday, new label' - more details on this web page here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter.htm)

This Christian site here (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t020.html) is even more interesting as it is very Christian biased, but still dispels some of the myths. (it blames Easter egg rolling on satan toward the end :) )

To sum it up - Easter was, and still is, the Spring celebration - attached to whatever god(s) were in vogue at the time. The name Easter has pagan roots (and probably shouldnt be used by devout Christians at all), as does the easter bunny (the bunny being a symbol of fertility).

Divissima
17th-December-2004, 10:33 AM
The 'fasting'; is a common misconception ... the idea is 'to do without somethhing' ... no fast per se. For Chritians its a CELEBRATION of the ressurection ... not a grim thing at all ... its fairly fiundamental ... a symbolisim of life after death, the power of Christ etc. etc. ... and from all this we celebrate with chocolate easter eggs????? :confused:

PS ... I'm no longer a practicing Catholic but I still have great empathy with those who follow the RC beliefs.

Although you are right, the 'fasting' has now become 'give up something I like for Lent', I always thought it was supposed to be symbolic of the forty days in the wilderness. Maybe Christians are just too wussy to fast properly :devil: Anyway, my recollection from my days as a practising Catholic was that Easter Sunday was a celebration of the resurrection and actual life after death, but that Easter Week itself was a pretty grim affair. It is not merely the resurrection which is marked, but the events of that fateful week - including doubt, denial, betrayal, injustice, long protracted death and grief. The glory and joy of the resurrection would lessened without marking the events which preceded it. Or maybe I just used to belong to a 'doom and gloom' parish :rolleyes:

Right, I'm off to feel guilty about something....

Will
17th-December-2004, 12:08 PM
Right, I'm off to feel guilty about something....
I know exactly how you feel!

Ironic isn't it, that the whole point of Christmas & Easter combined, is to give us a gift that removes our guilt, and yet we find it so hard to accept or believe it. It's almost as if a "It's too good to be true" message is programmed into us somehow, preventing us from being able to accept that freedom from guilt, shame, etc...

ChrisA
17th-December-2004, 04:42 PM
Ironic isn't it, that the whole point of Christmas & Easter combined, is to give us a gift that removes our guilt, and yet we find it so hard to accept or believe it. It's almost as if a "It's too good to be true" message is programmed into us somehow, preventing us from being able to accept that freedom from guilt, shame, etc...
Gift????

I don't make people pay for the Christmas presents I give them. I don't even mind much if they don't send me a thank you letter :nice:

:devil:

(runs back under rock).

Lynn
19th-December-2004, 08:26 PM
IMHO nothing can be too commercial for the majority. My reasoning is that the market moves to meet consumer demand so the majority of the public get what they want.Much as I love shopping (as you know!) I don’t agree. Retail is not driven by consumer demand – it’s driven by profit. Consumer demand is created by advertising in order to maximise that profit. Therefore, especially at Christmas, we give a lot of profit to shops by purchasing things we don’t actually need, but we think we want. Many children will get toys this Christmas, not because they don’t already have any but because they want the ‘latest’ one – which they never would have heard of if not for advertising (and I’m not saying its wrong to buy children new toys, just illustrating a point). And I think the majority spend too much money at Christmas (probably myself included).
I agree with you, Divi. I think that lots of Christmas traditions, like lighting fires and bringing evergreens into the house have their roots in magic rituals designed to persuade nature to return to a state of warmth, growth and light.
Christian imagery still draws on that today, in the idea of the Light of the World being born at Christmastime. I've no problem with this somewhat mixed tradition. :yeah:
Yes, Christmas and Easter were celebrated at times of pre-Christian festivals. It is the nature of Christianity to be expressed in contextually and culturally relevant forms while keeping the essence of what it teaches based on the Bible. The spring celebration of new physical life – eggs, baby animals etc – was appropriate to adapt to a celebration of a message with an offer of new spiritual life. Likewise the midwinter festival was replaced by the Christmas celebration. The exact date isn’t really important, it just gives a focus. The Christmas trees and feast are from the pre-Christian celebration, the message of peace and goodwill and Christ as the light of the world are directly from the Bible.

(Interestingly, there is a church denomination that does not celebrate Christmas as there is no example of it being celebrated in the Bible - other than the first one of course!).

I’ve just been to a candlelight Carol Service, but also have a tree up with its decorations. Next Saturday morning we’ll be at church, then go home and have our ‘feast’. So I suppose for me Christmas has several facets and I think that’s OK!

Bangers & Mash
20th-December-2004, 01:35 AM
considering how the christian religion has changed over the centuries

- not working on the sabbath (what happened to that)
- german christmas trees (now integral with xmas)
- st. nicholas (various origins)
- eat his body and drink his blood (pagan)

because of other influences It would be interesting to see if and how christmas is celebrated in the next 50, 100 and 1000 years.

I wonder how much xmas will be influenced by political correctness. I wonder if we will ever be told that:

- celebrating xmas is offensive to other religions
- santa coming down the chimney encourages burglary
- talk of elves is size discrimination
- etc, ...

just curious. people are complaining that we have forgotten what xmas is all about already - but will it bare any resemblance in the future to what it does now?

jivecat
20th-December-2004, 10:57 AM
Much as I love shopping (as you know!) I don’t agree. Retail is not driven by consumer demand – it’s driven by profit. Consumer demand is created by advertising in order to maximise that profit. Therefore, especially at Christmas, we give a lot of profit to shops by purchasing things we don’t actually need, but we think we want. Many children will get toys this Christmas, not because they don’t already have any but because they want the ‘latest’ one – which they never would have heard of if not for advertising (and I’m not saying its wrong to buy children new toys, just illustrating a point). And I think the majority spend too much money at Christmas (probably myself included). :yeah:
:yeah:

The bid to grab that crucial share of the market is what causes businesses to begin their advertising campaigns in October, which I hate, and makes Christmas a less special time. But if the predictions of a dismal shopping Christmas are true, then customers are getting canny and saving their money for the sales. The net result to businesses is probably the same - as long as they get your money in the end it doesn't matter when it is.

Lynn
20th-December-2004, 12:11 PM
considering how the christian religion has changed over the centuries

- not working on the sabbath (what happened to that) That is actually Jewish, rather than Christian, and was to reflect the fact that God took a day of rest after the 6 days of creation. It was to be a day set aside from the normal week, to honour God. The Sabbath is Saturday and starts from sundown on Friday and runs from sundown on Saturday. Devout Jews still follow the practice of resting on the Sabbath. Christians changed their 'special day' to a Sunday, as the day Christ rose, and the 'day of rest' concept went with that change. (It might seem like Christianity is about following 'rules' the way its taught in some churches, but it isn't really.)

Chicklet
20th-December-2004, 01:12 PM
I wonder how much xmas will be influenced by political correctness. I wonder if we will ever be told that:

- celebrating xmas is offensive to other religions
-- talk of elves is size discrimination
- etc, ...


possibly this is what you mean and your ironic tone is too tame :wink: :grin:
but I believe both of these things are happening already!!!

PS I saw creme eggs yesterday :tears:

Chicklet
20th-December-2004, 01:16 PM
another *moral* quandry.....have you ever not given someone a present because it became fairly clear that they wouldn't be giving you one?

ie you didn't give it becasue you didn't want someone to feel *obliged* to give you one, even although you really liked the person and would have loved to give them something just because they were a good friend and you wanted to show them that you loved them??

Bangers & Mash
20th-December-2004, 01:29 PM
another *moral* quandry.....have you ever not given someone a present because it became fairly clear that they wouldn't be giving you one?

ie you didn't give it becasue you didn't want someone to feel *obliged* to give you one, even although you really liked the person and would have loved to give them something just because they were a good friend and you wanted to show them that you loved them??

in the past I have not given presents where they wouldn't be appreciated but not because I wouldn't get one back - in fact some of the more deserving recipients couldn't afford to give one in return .

but I derive just as much satisfaction if not more from giving presents than receiving.

nowadays, because extended families are getting so big - we only give presents to the children.

CJ
20th-December-2004, 03:04 PM
That is actually Jewish, rather than Christian, and was to reflect the fact that God took a day of rest after the 6 days of creation. It was to be a day set aside from the normal week, to honour God. The Sabbath is Saturday and starts from sundown on Friday and runs from sundown on Saturday. Devout Jews still follow the practice of resting on the Sabbath. Christians changed their 'special day' to a Sunday, as the day Christ rose, and the 'day of rest' concept went with that change. (It might seem like Christianity is about following 'rules' the way its taught in some churches, but it isn't really.)

Try saying THAT out aloud in the Western Isles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dreadful Scathe
20th-December-2004, 03:47 PM
Try saying THAT out aloud in the Western Isles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You get fire and brimstone handed out in supermarkets up there :)

Dreadful Scathe
23rd-December-2004, 12:16 PM
Heres an interesting article (http://atheism.about.com/b/a/134311.htm#more) about Christmas in America being less religious than it used to be and the Christian right being slightly miffed :).

This poll is interesting so far - clearly quite a few people voted for more than one option. The first one is especially interesting ' Its a celebration of the birth of Christ' it clearly IS this for many people, so therell be a mix of people who do actually celebrate the birth of Christ who voted here mixed with the people who don't but are admitting that others do.

Only 7 people voted for the last option 'Christmas should be primarily about Christianity' so it seems the majority arent particularly religious but we are still a very open minded lot as 23 voted for 'Its many things to many people which i think is ok' (despite the initial spelling mistake :) ).

15 of us voted for 'Its a time for friends, family and the high point of the year' which is actually quite a secular statement taken on its own but some may have checked this because they are religious and the 'high point' they speak of is Christs celebration, some may not have checked this because although they do celebrate the secular holiday, perhaps its not particularly a 'high point' (depends how exciting your life is i suppose).

Thats the trouble with polls of any type, even the simplest statements will be open to interpretation, but a forum like this is the perfect environment to follow up with an explanation of what your interpretation is. Assuming you want to :).

Lou
23rd-December-2004, 12:55 PM
Only 7 people voted for the last option 'Christmas should be primarily about Christianity' so it seems the majority arent particularly religious

Christianity is not the only religion. :rolleyes: Don't forget the 1,215 million Muslims, 786 million Hindus, 362 million Buddhists, 18 million Jews, 16 million Sikhs, half a million wiccas, and those people who ticked Jedi on their census form (amongst others!). :whistle:

Oh, and apparently Xmas is a legitimate Christian way of spelling Christmas - according to this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4097755.stm). :grin:

Dreadful Scathe
23rd-December-2004, 01:35 PM
Christianity is not the only religion. :rolleyes:

Fair enough, slight slip on my part there. In context though Christmas is 'about' the Christian religion so it still sort of makes sense to assume thats the religion we were talking about, but thats assuming that for that particular option people of other religions agree that its a Christian holiday - but 'most' do as they tend not to celebrate it. Still , a lot of assumptions is bad for your health :).

Thing is, its actually a bit suspect to call Christianity 'a religion' its really lots of religions. Islam only has a couple of offshoots, Christianity has 'a lot' :D.

By the way : I'm a 'Jedi' :)

Dreadful Scathe
23rd-December-2004, 01:37 PM
Oh, and apparently Xmas is a legitimate Christian way of spelling Christmas - according to this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4097755.stm). :grin:

Yup, I knew this. Not a lot of people do though, and Ive seen Christians complain about the 'Xmas' usage as an insult against Christmas and Christians. Ignorance is a far bigger problem in the world than Religion is :)

Lou
23rd-December-2004, 02:28 PM
By the way : I'm a 'Jedi' :)
Geddaway! :rolleyes: *lol*

(p.s. and I'm a pedant :na: )

Rhythm King
23rd-December-2004, 03:30 PM
By the way : I'm a 'Jedi' :)

Me too! :really: No, really. When the last census was done, my entire Forces unit put down Jedi as their religion on the form. Several others did too, it was all part of an unofficial experiment to see if enough people declared themselves as Jedi, whether it would be published on the results as a UK national religion. It wasn't :whistle:

Mature? Moi? :eek:

CJ
23rd-December-2004, 03:49 PM
I, too, am a Jedi.

AND

I have the coolest lightabre EVER (on this planet) to prove it!! (poodle's pompoms doesn't even come close!!!!!)

Might even bring one tonight... Hell, I'll bring both: how can we fight otherwise?!?

Dreadful Scathe
23rd-December-2004, 03:49 PM
Me too! :really: No, really. When the last census was done, my entire Forces unit put down Jedi as their religion on the form. Several others did too, it was all part of an unofficial experiment to see if enough people declared themselves as Jedi, whether it would be published on the results as a UK national religion. It wasn't :whistle:

Mature? Moi? :eek:
It raises an interesting question though. Who's to say that 'jedi' is wrong? It may be a 'religion' from a film but there are plenty religions that come from books :D, and whilst almost no one takes 'jedi' seriously as a real religion, there are plenty who dismiss other religions just as readily. Scientology for example, considered by its members as a proper religion - whos to say they're wrong ? the people who disagree ? pah! :)

Then you have Jehovahs Witnesses, buddhism, shintoism, paganism - all minority religions in this country, and you will find it easy to find people who would happily claim that they arent 'real' religions. George W Bush himself declared the wiccan religion as false (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/271386318) a few years ago and there are thousands of them in the US :).

So for me the whole religion question was a stupid addition to the census and not relevant in todays ever changing and varied society....

...Especially as the actual census results are next to useless. People can put down 'their' religion as 'whatever' because they feel they are supposed to put that through family expectations, tradition or "i felt i had to put something and this fits the most". Actual religious belief may not enter into it.

CJ
6th-January-2005, 02:31 PM
I have the coolest lightabre EVER (on this planet) to prove it!! (poodle's pompoms doesn't even come close!!!!!)


DS, did you evr get one?!?

Dreadful Scathe
6th-January-2005, 03:05 PM
DS, did you evr get one?!?
nope, but I'll buy one "for the baby" :)

Lou
6th-January-2005, 03:22 PM
I, too, am a Jedi.

AND

I have the coolest lightabre EVER (on this planet) to prove it!! (poodle's pompoms doesn't even come close!!!!!)

Might even bring one tonight... Hell, I'll bring both: how can we fight otherwise?!?
According to www.jediism.org (http://www.jediism.org) (which appears to be the official website of the Jedi religion):

Conflict is a fact of life in the galaxy for far too many beings, and no Jedi can hope to remain apart from it. But a Jedi need not embrace conflict. "If a weapon you show, 'A warrior am I!' you say. And who is best must all other warriors know of you." So, to avoid unnecessary fighting, a Jedi should not advertise his skill.
So, you shouldn't go around looking for fights! :na:


Oh yeah - and there's this, as well:


A Jedi Knight must not allow evil to take place once they become aware of its working. To remain aloof in situations where a Jedi's intervention would prevent the dark side from attaining another foothold is the same as helping it do so. This a Jedi Knight must never do. A True Jedi Knight must constantly be wary of his path, making certain he does not stray toward the dark side, but remains firm in the light. Therefore, when the situation warrants it, the Jedi acts as an extension of the Will of the Force, and is therefore sponsored and backed by that Will.

Extension of Will, indeed..... :rolleyes: