PDA

View Full Version : Footwork LeRoc or otherwise



jiveoholic
10th-December-2004, 09:40 PM
I was just wondering about footwork - especially the lady's. There seem to be two camps, those who do strict "LeRoc" footwork (eg step back on right at the start of a lady-spin but step back on left for an arm-jive) and those who just use whatever foot comes most easily.

Have a look at http://www.jiveoholic.org.uk/footwork.asp if you are not sure what this is about. I am interested how many follow such footwork, whether all LeRocers are that strick and what our ozzy friends think.

The note is just my best understanding of the footwork, any correction appreciated!

Baruch
12th-December-2004, 12:40 AM
By "footwork" you're obviously referring to the basic stuff. Personally, when I'm dancing I'm not thinking of the lady's feet, unless I'm leading something a little more complicated. It just comes naturally, probably because the majority of the ladies I dance with are also from a Le Roc background.

I'm more concerned about my own feet, and with doing something a little more interesting than just the basic "step in - step back" stuff, although having said that, as I'm a Le Roc dancer, I naturally follow the "rules", at least when learning moves, because that's how I've been taught from the beginning. It's no hardship really, and it's not really rocket science.

MartinHarper
13th-December-2004, 12:53 AM
FWIW, beginner/intermediate JazzJive follows the same rules as those in your linked article (which I'll call "LeRoc footwork" for simplicity). Those rules are taught explicitly (eg "this move interrupts a return"). Later on it starts getting more swing-like, which is kinda like an extension to LeRoc footwork.

Ceroc (locally) also basically follows the LeRoc footwork, as you describe it. One difference is that Ceroc considers the basket(+variations) to be a move you do after a return. Another difference is that the rules are never explicitly taught. Fortunately, beginners rapidly work them out, consciously or not. A final difference is that Ceroc teachers very occasionally teach routines that break the rules, which doesn't happen in JazzJive.

Lou
13th-December-2004, 09:55 AM
Ceroc (locally) also basically follows the LeRoc footwork, as you describe it. One difference is that Ceroc considers the basket(+variations) to be a move you do after a return.
Good point. Purest LeRoc does teach a basket with the right foot back, however it's not unknown for it to be put in after a return too (so, left foot back to begin).

I liked your 6 rules, Jiveoholic. They're spot on for our taught footwork - although I'd argue with one of your examples for rule 3. I've never seen an Octopus taught at a LeRoc class. It would be a two handed travelling Return followed by a Loophole! :wink: And I'm not certain about the "Observations" paragraph, because I can't figure out what you mean. Although, that's most likely due to the fact that I haven't drunk enough coffee this morning yet. :whistle:

The compatability idea is interesting. I have to say that when I've danced with CerocTM (or other) taught dancers, I've not particularly felt my footwork to be a big issue. Mostly, it's more to do with signals (that Neckbreak one in particular freaks me out). Although, saying that, when RobC & Debi were teaching at Boppin', their routine contained a move combination that didn't seem quite comfortable for LeRoc footwork (I think it was the Whips, but I can't remember precisely), so incompatability does happen. However, some LeRoc men do insist on leading a return before a Sway, so I guess we women are used to bending the rules occasionally. :rolleyes:

jiveoholic
13th-December-2004, 08:04 PM
I liked your 6 rules, Jiveoholic. They're spot on for our taught footwork - although I'd argue with one of your examples for rule 3. I've never seen an Octopus taught at a LeRoc class. It would be a two handed travelling Return followed by a Loophole!

Ah - I remember now - LeRoc-eeze for Octopus is "Loophole" and its done with the man turning first so would come after a return. I shall remove it from my list. Has anyone a definitive list?

It also interesting about Jazzjive. Does anyone have a definition of its difference from LeRoc or Ceroc....but then again who has a definition for the latter? Perhaps there are a set number of "flavours" and each venue has a mix...personally I fit into the slightly robotic, hate most swing music, Manhatten footwork, can do a break usually, no fixed footwork sort of guy!

RobC
13th-December-2004, 08:41 PM
when RobC & Debi were teaching at Boppin', their routine contained a move combination that didn't seem quite comfortable for LeRoc footwork (I think it was the Whips, but I can't remember precisely), so incompatability does happen.
That's because we weren't exactly teaching from the Ceroc Manual :wink:

My dance style is naturally a lot more slotted with footwork (probably from my background in Ballroom) and has more in common with WCS than "by-the-book Ceroc". What we were trying to do with our routine at Bristol, was introduce the concept of dancing in a slot, with the lady moving forwards and backwards in a straight line, and with the man "moving out of the way". I suspect that it was more this movement that seemed unusual - afterall, men are attrociously bad at moving their feet, let alone moving around their partner :whistle:

jockey
13th-December-2004, 11:31 PM
Briefly, footwook is seldom a problem unless my partner is doing 'something else' i.e., non standard footwork. I was taught by Graham Leclerc (Le Roc) and did many many classes. Sometimes a partner in freestyle feels all wrong and it is usually down to unorthodox feet; extra steps or a 'skip' step is a common mistake or nt taking a long enough step and having to smuggle in something extra to get there as a result (or not get there). Whatever is happening it is highly disruptive: bit like a self taught golf swing - looks awful and gets you nowhere except in the wrong place (the bunker). To compound the problem the girls seem jolly pleased with themselves and if and when I say something about it they just reply that they are here to enjoy themselves (implying ' why aren't you, you creep..!!'). Ho hum. :sad:

Lou
14th-December-2004, 08:09 AM
That's because we weren't exactly teaching from the Ceroc Manual :wink:
Hehe! As The Manual is such a closely guarded secret, I couldn't possibly know if what you're saying is true, so I'll just have to trust you on that! (Or you could show me, but then they'd no doubt have to kill me, I expect) :wink:


What we were trying to do with our routine at Bristol, was introduce the concept of dancing in a slot, with the lady moving forwards and backwards in a straight line, and with the man "moving out of the way". I suspect that it was more this movement that seemed unusual - afterall, men are attrociously bad at moving their feet, let alone moving around their partner :whistle:
Well - that's, of course, if you had a partner who was listening & would get out of the way! :whistle: Of course, most men would do that, wouldn't they?!

I really enjoyed the class, Rob, which is why it's stayed with me & came to mind as an example of where my learnt footwork didn't help! I think there were a couple of clockwise turns in a row, or something, in the routine, which meant that at one point I felt slightly wrong footed in a purist LeRoc way.

Gus
14th-December-2004, 10:37 AM
Briefly, footwook is seldom a problem unless my partner is doing 'something else' i.e., non standard footwork.{ODA Mode ON}
Must admit I'm peversley amused by this conversation. Only having done half a dozen Le Roc classes in the past (and no recollection of being given strict footwork) I'm now curious to see it in action. The questions that comes to mind ... is this footwork neccesary and does it make you dance better? As the majority of Modern Jivers dont follow this strict footwork and seem to get on quite well without it ... the reason for the footwork would be?
{ODA Mode OFF}

Lou
14th-December-2004, 11:32 AM
the reason for the footwork would be.....
....to show off our lovely shiny shoes, of course! :nice: :rolleyes:

Franck
14th-December-2004, 11:35 AM
{ODA Mode ON}
Must admit I'm peversley amused by this conversation. Only having done half a dozen Le Roc classes in the past (and no recollection of being given strict footwork) I'm now curious to see it in action. The questions that comes to mind ... is this footwork neccesary and does it make you dance better? As the majority of Modern Jivers dont follow this strict footwork and seem to get on quite well without it ... the reason for the footwork would be?
{ODA Mode OFF}Can't say I disagree :wink:
My personal view is that leRoc introduced the arbitrary footwork as a means of evening out the playing field between Beginner men and women, ensuring that women wouldn't be able to follow and dance so naturally by forcing them to concentrate on what foot they were stepping back on.

Any man that pays attention to his partner's momentum / position will lead her in a way that feels comfortable for her, regardless of her footwork anyway, and a man who doesn't will make the woman feel awkward whether of not she follows a 'strict' footwork.
Conversely, a woman who spends more time thinking about her footwork will become more difficult and unpredictible to lead... I spend a lot of time at workshops and regular classes trying to get the women to feel the direction from the lead rather than look at their (or the man's) feet as the improvement is usually significant.

Franck
14th-December-2004, 11:43 AM
....to show off our lovely shiny shoes, of course! :nice: :rolleyes:Can't argue with that :D

and before my previous post is mis-interpreted, footwork is a very useful thing to do / teach.
My issue is with arbitrary footwork taught for basic steps (like the turn / returns) trying to force anyone to step on a specific foot is a major turn-off for most Beginners.
In the example above, the basket can be and is just as comfortable (or indeed uncomfortable) when started from a right foot step back or a left foot step back. Both can be right / wrong depending on the individual and how they balance.
I can understand not doing a return before a Basket to avoid 2 consecutive anti-clockwise turns, which can make some beginners feel dizzy!

Lou
14th-December-2004, 11:48 AM
Can't say I disagree :wink:
Well - there's a surprise! :rofl:

My personal view is that leRoc introduced the arbitrary footwork as a means of evening out the playing field between Beginner men and women, ensuring that women wouldn't be able to follow and dance so naturally by forcing them to concentrate on what foot they were stepping back on.
Damn. You've figured us out, Franck! Any resemblance to logic & ease in the footwork is, in truth, purely coincidental.

Forget CTA training - LeRoc teachers need to pass an exam in S&M before they're allowed to teach, in order that a certain level of wickedness & deviance is maintained. I'll lend you my whip sometime, dearheart! :whistle:

Gus
14th-December-2004, 12:00 PM
Forget CTA training - LeRoc teachers need to pass an exam in S&M before they're allowed to teach, in order that a certain level of wickedness & deviance is maintained. I'll lend you my whip sometime, dearheart! :whistle:Well at least that has solved on issue thats been bugging me. Given the well known predeliction of Bristol folk for consorting with sheep and close family relatives I couldnt work out how they had been tempted away from such practices to learn to dance. The S&M angle explains it all :sick:

spindr
14th-December-2004, 12:32 PM
Ah - I remember now - LeRoc-eeze for Octopus is "Loophole" and its done with the man turning first so would come after a return. I shall remove it from my list. Has anyone a definitive list?

Wouldn't claim it to be definitive, but you could have a look at http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/map-start.html -- it's got all the moves in the site broken into categories.

I guess you'd be looking for moves with an intial anticlockwise movement for the follower.

SpinDr.

MartinHarper
14th-December-2004, 01:10 PM
arbitrary footwork

Not entirely arbitrary, IMO.

1. spin left with weight on left foot.
2. use right foot to stop spin, thus transferring weight onto the right foot.
3. The left foot is now free, so step back with the left foot.

If the lady steps back on her right foot, she makes an additional weight change, and reverses her direction of spin. Makes a difference to faster music.

Franck
14th-December-2004, 01:38 PM
Not entirely arbitrary, IMO.

1. spin left with weight on left foot.
2. use right foot to stop spin, thus transferring weight onto the right foot.
3. The left foot is now free, so step back with the left foot.

If the lady steps back on her right foot, she makes an additional weight change, and reverses her direction of spin. Makes a difference to faster music.Of course, not entirely arbitrary, at some point a teacher must have decided that one way worked better for him / her and respective partners and made it the norm at their classes.
I also understand that one foot will feel more natural than the other in some cases, but in the example above you assume that the Beginner concerned is able to transfer weight at all, something that many Beginners struggle with, and often just step straight back on the right foot after an ACW turn, without transferring. While you or other dancers might feel that is more awkward, it works for them, and my view (as expressed in this thread: Rules for stepping back (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3091) ) and repeated here is that telling women that one foot is right and the other is wrong will cause more stress than help. It also perpetuates the myth / belief that they have two left feet :sad:
As Adam, Amir and a few others mentioned, a good lead will not require his partner to step back on a specific foot to continue dancing and a beginner leader will not notice the difference anyway...
As for followers, I would rather spend the time teaching them to turn properly on one foot and on the spot rather than introduce a weight transfer that (usually) becomes an excuse to travel.

Chicklet
14th-December-2004, 02:21 PM
repeated here is that telling women that one foot is right and the other is wrong will cause more stress than help.
women however should continue to tell men one foot is right and one is left :grin:

MartinHarper
14th-December-2004, 02:58 PM
... you assume that the Beginner concerned ...

You assume I was talking about beginners (with or without a capital 'B'), and the best way of teaching them. I was just saying out that "LeRoc footwork" isn't arbitrary. I'm glad we agree. :)

Franck
14th-December-2004, 03:10 PM
You assume I was talking about beginners (with or without a capital 'B'), and the best way of teaching them. I was just saying out that "LeRoc footwork" isn't arbitrary. I'm glad we agree. :)Indeed I was :D
If we are not talking about Beginners ( :wink: ) then there is no problem, I'm all for encouraging people who already have a bit of dance experience / and crucially are already addicted to think more about the way they move their feet, the way they lead / follow etc...

spindr
14th-December-2004, 03:48 PM
Of course, not entirely arbitrary, at some point a teacher must have decided that one way worked better for him / her and respective partners and made it the norm at their classes.

Hmmm, I think it's actually so obvious that it doesn't actually need that much thinking about to do -- it may need a little more to see why it works :)


Objects need less work to rotate them, when they only have a single point in contact with the floor.

Dancers have the choice of rotating on their left or right leg.

If you rotate anticlockwise on your left leg you can see the direction that you are going -- hence it's easier/safer to rotate anticlockwise on your left leg. Similarly, if you rotate clockwise on your right leg you can see the direction that you are going -- hence it's easier/safer to rotate clockwise on your right leg.

If you are rotating on your left leg (acw) then you need to use your right leg to generate the rotation -- push either from a step backwards, or from a step to the right. Similarly, if you are rotating on your right leg (acw) then you need to use your left leg to generate the rotation -- pushing either from a step backwards, or from a step to the left.

If you don't want to get too dizzy you need to somehow match anticlockwise and clockwise rotations.

If you want to do an clockwise rotation followed by an anticlockwise rotation (exit a first move and then return) then you will

push off with left leg to generate motion and rotate clockwise on your right leg you can see the direction that you are going
*magic happens (tm)*
push off with right leg to generate motion and rotate anticlockwise on your left leg you can see the direction that you are going


*magic happens (tm)* Obviously, you can't push off from the right leg that you are spinning on. So you need to change weight on to your left leg. Then your right leg will be free to supply the push for the anticlockwise rotation.


Hence the *entirely obvious and easy (tm)* LeRoc footwork suitable and safe for beginners -- also the footwork taught by Ceroc(tm) in Australia :)

Of course throw away the rules once you can do it!

SpinDr.

Franck
14th-December-2004, 04:00 PM
Dancers have the choice of rotating on their left or right leg.

If you rotate anticlockwise on your left leg you can see the direction that you are going -- hence it's easier/safer to rotate anticlockwise on your left leg. Similarly, if you rotate clockwise on your right leg you can see the direction that you are going -- hence it's easier/safer to rotate clockwise on your right leg.Dancers have a choice indeed, but I have just tried it for confirmation, whether I turn on my right or left foot ACW, i can see where I'm going.
The above logical progression assumes that everyone will choose to turn on the right foot CW and left foot CW. For a simple turn or return either work fine, and some beginners will actually prefer turning on their right foot ACW, maybe because their right leg is stronger or maybe because they happened to step back on the left foot.
As you say, most dancers work it out pretty much naturally, and my point (no, make that my crusade :wink: ) is that bringing the extra theory / information early will be counter productive. Not the end of the world in any case as both methods seem to produce many happy dancers.

When I teach turns or spins (at workshops and occasionally during beginners class) I will always mention that turning on the inside foot is normally easier, but reassure anyone that if it works the other way, they don't need to change it!

Lou
14th-December-2004, 04:17 PM
and my point (no, make that my crusade :wink: ) is that bringing the extra theory / information early will be counter productive. Not the end of the world in any case as both methods seem to produce many happy dancers.

When I teach turns or spins (at workshops and occasionally during beginners class) I will always mention that turning on the inside foot is normally easier, but reassure anyone that if it works the other way, they don't need to change it!
Crusade? I hadn't noticed! :rolleyes:

Franck, over the years we've been having this same discussion, I have to admit I've waivered from the footwork stickler I once was. And it does seem that you are heading into more of a grey area, too - now that you admit you're at least mentioning footwork in your workshops & occasionally during beginners class!

I can handle stepping back occasionally on the other foot (hell - I even do it sometimes now!), but turning anti-clockwise on the right foot? Yeuch!! What work of the devil is that? :eek:

Franck
14th-December-2004, 05:01 PM
Franck, over the years we've been having this same discussion, I have to admit I've waivered from the footwork stickler I once was. And it does seem that you are heading into more of a grey area, too - now that you admit you're at least mentioning footwork in your workshops & occasionally during beginners class!

I can handle stepping back occasionally on the other foot (hell - I even do it sometimes now!), but turning anti-clockwise on the right foot? Yeuch!! What work of the devil is that? :eek:We have :D and arguing the step with you feels like putting on a comfortable pair of slippers :wink:

We have always taught footwork at Ceroc classes, maybe with a different emphasis and mostly at workshops rather than from the stage, but nonetheless...
I think that at the essence of the discussion, we agree!

As far as turning ACW on the right foot, it is excellent practise and will really help your spinning / versatility... Allowing you to perform impressive cross over spins and turns as well as never ever stepping back on the wrong foot again! :D

So Peace to all (including LeRocers :eek: ) and I hope we'll get the pleasure of your 'Strictly Come LeRoc' Footwork in Scotland soon!

Martin
15th-December-2004, 12:36 AM
I did not vote as I cannot find one that matched.

I was taught the basics by Graham Le Clerc, and I am forever grateful for him introducing me to the dance.

I really do not know what footwrok I do in freestyle - bit like driving a car, it becomes natural and you do not think about it.

Only time I think about it is when I teach.

Otherwise I wander around the dance floor and have fun! :clap:

eastmanjohn
15th-December-2004, 11:53 AM
When I teach turns or spins (at workshops and occasionally during beginners class) I will always mention that turning on the inside foot is normally easier, but reassure anyone that if it works the other way, they don't need to change it!

Surely this only works if you've got 3 legs and therefore always an inside foot :wink:

Rhythm King
22nd-December-2004, 01:07 PM
Surely this only works if you've got 3 legs and therefore always an inside foot :wink:

You've been listening to too much Rolf Harris mate :eek: