Hipsters feat. Robert Cordoba

[Lory]

In the unlikely occurrence that I get a chance, I will try and talk to Robert Cordoba about musicality tonight. He is the one dancer that has inspired me more than anybody else in this respect, and I think even Nigel idolises him!
I suspect the floor at Ealing will be emptier than normal tonight, because people will just be standing watching in awe.
(Hmmm, I hope he doesn't have an "off night" after I've said all that.)
So if I'm not totally awestruck, I'll be making notes to report back tomorrow.

GregI shall be in Hotshot testing mode! :D (Is he a fabby dancer? AND more importantly, will he dance with a nobody like ME? :wink: :rofl: )

[Zebra Woman]

I shall be in Hotshot testing mode! :D (Is he a fabby dancer? AND more importantly, will he dance with a nobody like ME? :wink: :rofl: )

Oooh yes..... I'll be right behind you Lory :drool:

Not too close mind :blush:

[Rhythm King]

Oooh yes..... I'll be right behind you Lory :drool:

Not too close mind :blush:

And I'll be there to dance with both of you, when you aren't dancing with Robert! :drool:

R-K x :flower:

[Lory]

I shall be in Hotshot testing mode! :D (Is he a fabby dancer? AND more importantly, will he dance with a nobody like ME? :wink: :rofl: )
Reporting back! :wink:

Yes, he IS a fabby dancer..... I watched in awe AND he's definitly a nice bloke too, I asked him for a dance and he was really friendly and said he had 2 in a queue but would get back to me straight after, and true to his word, he did :cheers: BUT we got the worst track, :tears: White hot Christmas by the Jive Aces :sick: (sorry to anyone who likes it but the more I hear this the more I hate it! ) And 'I' was RUBBISH! :blush: :( :(

[ChrisA]

BUT we got the worst track, :tears: White hot Christmas by the Jive Aces :sick: (sorry to anyone who likes it but the more I hear this the more I hate it! )
...... :yeah:

(Rant)

What the hell was JB doing even playing it? I mean, he even apologised before he put it on. :confused: I've had two goes, but now I won't even try to dance to it.

It's not even as if the Jive Aces haven't done lots of danceable stuff - grrrrrrrrrrr :mad:

I had a crap night... I really enjoyed the class, even though it was hard (having done no WCS for nearly a year), but then in freestyle my mind had switched partially back into West Coast mode and I found myself continually trying to do these things that were a sort of mixture of MJ and West Coast, and needless to say they were complete, unmusical rubbish :tears:

And it was crowded, with muppets doing their usual inconsiderate thing. And to cap it all, although usually I like JB's music, I didn't like it at all last night - too much swing encouraging some of the kicky-runny-jumpy-lindy people to get even more inconsiderate, and too many things that, for me at least, have been overplayed. If there had been some really luscious tunes then maybe I could have got back into the groove, but it just wasn't happening - and I even left early which is pretty unheard of.

There were some nice moments, but nights like that I just end up wishing I'd stayed in with a bottle of wine.

:tears:

(/Rant)

Phew. I feel better now. :nice:

Chris

PS Did anyone else find it surprising that such an accomplished, stylish WCS dancer as RC could make MJ look so awful when attempting to demonstrate how to do his West Coast moves as MJ? :devil: I mean, armjives for goodness sake :what: :devil: :rolleyes:

[ChrisA]

although usually I like JB's music, I didn't like it at all last night
Actually, re-reading this, a thought struck me...

... there's lots of slowish music that is WC-able and jivable too.

So on a theme night with a visiting WCS deity, wouldn't it have been sensible to have slowish music predominate?

And better still, get someone experienced in WC DJing - like our very own Sheepman perhaps :innocent:

Ooh, I'm just having a little fantasy, where there's lots of luscious slow music that drives off the mad and inconsiderate people because they can't flail around at high speed to slow music, and so the floor's less busy as well. Result :clap:


Chris

[David Franklin]

PS Did anyone else find it surprising that such an accomplished, stylish WCS dancer as RC could make MJ look so awful when attempting to demonstrate how to do his West Coast moves as MJ? :devil: I mean, armjives for goodness sake :what: :devil: :rolleyes:Well, I guess if you exaggerate the differences you end up with a caricature... It was rather bouncy! :rofl: But I can show you US Open winning performances that are frankly cringeworthy - though you do have to go back quite a few years. Other amusing historical fact: We think of WCS being for slow music? Well some of the early WCS showcases had sections at 220 bpm! (The Lindy origins being very visible at that point...)

Dave

[Feelingpink]

And it was crowded, with muppets doing their usual inconsiderate thing. And to cap it all, although usually I like JB's music, I didn't like it at all last night - too much swing encouraging some of the kicky-runny-jumpy-lindy people to get even more inconsiderate, and too many things that, for me at least, have been overplayed. If there had been some really luscious tunes then maybe I could have got back into the groove, but it just wasn't happening - and I even left early which is pretty unheard of.

Chris

PS Did anyone else find it surprising that such an accomplished, stylish WCS dancer as RC could make MJ look so awful when attempting to demonstrate how to do his West Coast moves as MJ? :devil: I mean, armjives for goodness sake :what: :devil: :rolleyes:

Are you criticising the music here or the way that dancers dealt with it? I'm not a WCS fan at all - but did most of the well-taught lesson and accepted that there might be some slower songs for WCS people ... but still don't want to miss the "Hipsters experience" ... which includes the JB mix of music (although I'm with you on the Jive Aces song - yuk! - and I don't care if they do want it to get to number one for Christmas). Just because there is a visiting teacher in one style doesn't mean that the entire night should get musically hijacked by it.

As for RC's arm jive, it is the move that Amir takes the proverbial out of when trying to get us to do the smooth stuff ... easy to make look (& feel) rubbish.

Sorry you didn't get the dance experience that you wanted, though. :flower:

[Daisy]

Reporting back! :wink:

Yes, he IS a fabby dancer..... I watched in awe AND he's definitly a nice bloke too, I asked him for a dance and he was really friendly and said he had 2 in a queue but would get back to me straight after, and true to his word, he did :cheers: BUT we got the worst track, :tears: White hot Christmas by the Jive Aces :sick: (sorry to anyone who likes it but the more I hear this the more I hate it! ) And 'I' was RUBBISH! :blush: :( :(


Sorry Lory but I was much worse than you!! After finally plucking up the courage to ask Robert to dance, and with some encouragement from Lily & Sally, I eventually tapped him on the arm. No sooner had he said yes than JB put on the fastest jive track imaginable! :sad: .....I groaned inwardly knowing that my hummble attempts at WCS would never cope. RC made a valiant effort but I know it was a disaster. We didn't swing and we didn't jive.....what the hell did we do? :o :sick: :blush:

By the way....when is JB going to play some music that we haven't heard a trillion times before? I'm so bored by the music at Hipsters these days....definately won't be making the long drive up from West Sussex again for a while!

[Lory]

In response to a few of the above.......

I felt quite embarrassed about the 'jive' demonstration, I wasn't quite sure if he really couldn't do it, or he taking the p*ss? (either way, it was embarrassing for him or us, the modern jivers)

It was only my third WCS lesson and as I said before, I loved it (it was fun and well taught) and right towards the end of the lesson, things began to click, :clap: it would have been so nice to be able to freestyle a bit of WCS to consolidate what I'd learnt BUT OH No, we didn't get a chance, the music just wasn't appropriate. :(

A while back, when downstairs changed over from Lindy to WCS I was genuinely excited at the prospect of a music change, I imagined we'd get lots of really smooth tracks to cater for the WCS's but I don't know if it's just me but there seems to be more lindy swing than ever????

P.s. don't you think Robert Cordoba looks like one of the Osmonds? :na:

[ChrisA]

A while back, when downstairs changed over from Lindy to WCS I was genuinely excited at the prospect of a music change, I imagined we'd get lots of really smooth tracks to cater for the WCS's but I don't know if it's just me but there seems to be more lindy swing than ever????

....... :yeah:

I wonder if DJs can get like dancers sometimes - all plateaued out?

Hope you're reading this, JB... we think you're fab, but maybe you need to get some new stuff in, work on innovating a bit more??? There are some very innovative DJs about - LL and Kenobe to name my two favourites, and it would be a shame to lose you from their ranks.

Take some risks, dude. You know you want to :wink:


P.s. don't you think Robert Cordoba looks like one of the Osmonds?
Yes !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bad girl, Lory :D

I'll never be able to look at him in quite the same light now :rofl:

Chris

[ChrisA]

Are you criticising the music here or the way that dancers dealt with it?

Well on this occasion I'm mostly criticising the music - elsewhere I've banged on about inconsiderate dancers on crowded floors.

I've been dancing at Hipsters for a couple of years or so now, and usually I've enjoyed it, except when it's been too packed to dance without stress. But I do think that the music mix needs updating, and I'm obviously not the only one.



Just because there is a visiting teacher in one style doesn't mean that the entire night should get musically hijacked by it.

Well, for most visiting teachers I'd agree. But Robert Cordoba isn't just any visiting teacher. And there were a number of people in the class that almost never do classes, which IMHO says a lot.

To put on predominantly slower music (for a change) to make it possible for those people (and lots of others) to benefit from such a treat is hardly hijacking the night.

Chris

[Gus]

it would have been so nice to be able to freestyle a bit of WCS to consolidate what I'd learnt Thats is one of those statements of the obvious that have organisers kick themselves about. We had been running WCS lessons at Northwich for some time and I was being a pain trying to get the WCS dancers out of thier room as soon as possible to join in the main MJ dancing. It wasnt until we ran a full WCS lesson at Cool Catz that it even dawned on me that, like all dancers, the WCS dancers needed some freestle to consolidate their learning :tears: We now have this policy in place.

Referring back to a point that Chris A made though., I'm finding it hard finding WCS music that is slow enough for new WCS dancers yet not so slow that you cant do a decent Blues dance to it. Having said that, two forum aces (Oracle and Sheepman) have very kindly given me some suggested tracks that I need to obtain to improve my WCS music collection.

[ElaineB]

Hello from Bristol!

I had a mixed night last night! This was my third time at WCS (huge gaps in between!) and as usual find Robert's instructions very easy to follow as he calls out the timing. However! Some of the Guys blatantly ignored his calling and instead of 1,2, 123, 123 in the sugar push, danced 1,2, 123, 1,2 and pulled through on that beat! Then to cap it all, when the Lady was supposed to do her 'thing', I followed RC's instructions to block the guys hand (hello, I am doing something!!!) and found myself in an arm wrestling competition with the Guy furiously attempting to pull me through! :what: :rofl: :what: When I was lucky enough to get a partner who had previously done WCS, it was lovely, although by then I had lost the confidence to do the 'Ladies' bit!

The up side was that I had some really lovely dances with some new people and some of the 'old hands' (thanks Sheepman - ever the Gent!), but managed to be 'perved' big time This is the second time - different Guy, I hasten to add! :sick:

The music was dissapointing and I had hoped for some WCS to follow the lesson and consolidate what I had just learned, but as Chris A says it was far too fast. And as for that Jive Aces track - sorry, but yuch!

As for RC - he really is a good ambassador for dance Gods - I didn't dance with him last night, but when he came to Bristol about 18 months ago, I had two dances with him and he gave me the impression that he enjoyed himself, despite the fact that I had only been dancing for 9 months! So as far as I am concerned, he gets my vote anytime! :clap: :clap: :clap:


Elaine

PS - Arrived home at 2.15am.............5 hours sleep............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Daniel Sandars]

It was only my third WCS lesson and as I said before, I loved it (it was fun and well taught) and right towards the end of the lesson, things began to click, :clap: it would have been so nice to be able to freestyle a bit of WCS to consolidate what I'd learnt BUT OH No, we didn't get a chance, the music just wasn't appropriate. :(

A while back, when downstairs changed over from Lindy to WCS I was genuinely excited at the prospect of a music change, I imagined we'd get lots of really smooth tracks to cater for the WCS's but I don't know if it's just me but there seems to be more lindy swing than ever????


I totally agree with this line of thinking. If you are going to theme an MJ night on West Coast Swing and a top teacher/ dancer then go the full distance. That is what we try to do with our Blues events.

There will always be those MJ dancers who don't like the style, but that might ease the over crowding.

[ChrisA]

If you are going to theme an MJ night on West Coast Swing and a top teacher/ dancer then go the full distance.

Exactly :cheers:



There will always be those MJ dancers who don't like the style, but that might ease the over crowding.
:devil:

[djtrev]

Never having danced WCS or played any WCS tracks it would be nice if you could share your list of tracks with us Gus.Then if the occasion ever arises....

[Sheepman]

So on a theme night with a visiting WCS deity, wouldn't it have been sensible to have slowish music predominate? I do agree with this, but sorry if I'm going to p1ss off every one else. I had a fab night, even if I wasn't feeling on top form.

I do think it would have helped if people knew that they were going to get a WCS lesson, maybe it was deliberately kept from us, so as not to put people off who were only jivers, after all, the point was made in the lesson about the moves being translatable to jive. (Sorry, I wasn't paying attention during Robert's jive "demo", so I can't really comment, apart from saying that it didn't look as slick as his usual style!)

I started the lesson in the line up with Joy, and on discovering that it was to be a west coast lesson, I thought, "no, this will be beginners stuff only, I don't want to do this." So Joy and I agreed to go and work on some stuff together. (It may be 6 months before our next comp., but it's never too early to start trying stuff!) By the time we'd got ourselves together, the lesson was halfway through the second move, and I thought, "hang on a minute, this looks interesting!" We were amongst the non rotators at the back of the hall, and that's where we stayed :blush: , as the lesson just got better and better!
I accept that it wasn't a lesson that non-westies were going to execute faultlessly, I just hope that for most people the odd move and the principles within it were useful. I was in awe of how much Robert got through in such a short time, and with such a big crowd.

Regarding the rest of the night, I think I only jived to about 5 or 6 tracks, (one of those was "White Hot Christmas" - it might grow on me, but I'd rather it didn't!) I was west coasting practically the whole night. Admittedly a lot of it was fast west coast, but I thought the music was mostly great. I do accept that when you're struggling to get to grips with a new dance style (as I was for about 3 years or more), you need it much slower to give the grey matter a chance to communicate with the body. I was aware of the fact there seemed to be only one track that I'd not heard before on a Tuesday, but maybe it was just the mood I was in, I didn't sit down once!

And regarding the space, yes it was packed, and there were some complete nutters out there, (especially the ones who SHOULD know better :angry: ) But some of the time I found myself revelling in the amount of floor space I had, I couldn't believe how and why there should be so much space! (Admittedly I didn't venture down the front of the hall once.)

Greg

[Zebra Woman]

I have a hot pack on my shoulder ...damaged last night during the class so I wont be typing much.

Brief History: I have managed to make 9 of the Tues WCS classes at Hipsters over the last three months. Amazingly I have actually freestyled to less than 40 songs in that time!!! Usually in the gap between the two classes downstairs. I have had less than 15 WCS freestyle dances upstairs in the last 3 months . I have felt for some time that the music on a Tuesday is too fast and swingy upstairs even for MJ. That's just my opion of course.

Attempting to do WCS to fast music is demoralising and not really enjoyable for me. Like Lory I too would like to dance to the smooth lush R&B . Surely there must be a suggested playlist of suitable tracks for fledgling WCS swing dancers, it's not rocket science. Where's Sheepy????

Last night was a golden opportunity to inspire people to learn this fab dance. Robert Cordoba set the ball rolling but I think the choice of music for the freestyle did not help the cause.

Luckily during the freestyle I found a couple of men able to lead a transition between MJ and WCS so I had a few mixed dances. When Robert said he'd teach us 'how to incorporate WCS into MJ' I thought this is what he meant. A very usefull skill too.

Not do his moves to a MJ rhythm, that looked stupid. Agree with Lory he looked like he was mocking MJ I felt uncomfortable and confused watching that.

I was so looking forward to last night. The class was great, although my slot became so tight at times I was getting battered trying to get through it (hence shoulder injury). I have never seen so many WCS dancers in one room, and fab dancers taking the class too. The night had great promise....

Then the music started and it all went wrong. I just didn't feel good enough to go and wait in Robert's queue and run the risk of getting a fast song.

Gutted

ZW

No smileys ...they're not working today

[David Franklin]

Not do his moves to a MJ rhythm, that looked stupid. Agree with Lory he looked like he was mocking MJ I felt uncomfortable and confused watching that.If it makes you feel any better, Robert tried to start up MJ-inspired classes in the US last year, so he can't be too down on it - though undoubtably it's seen as a more 'primitive' dance. I think it came down to trying to dance in a clearly 'MJ' style and going over the top with it...

The class actually went a lot better than I expected given the number of WCS virgins. It was pretty cramped though - especially for those who had trouble staying in their slot...

Biggest pity for us was it was so freakin' cold in the hall. :eek: Bryony never warmed up and we ended up leaving early...

Dave

[Feelingpink]

Biggest pity for us was it was so freakin' cold in the hall. :eek: Bryony never warmed up and we ended up leaving early...

Dave

Maybe it was just Franco opening all the windows to get us in the mood for Strictly Come Ice Dancing?! :whistle:

[Rhythm King]

I went along last night, knowing it was going to be a WCS class and having only seen Robert Cordoba on video before.
The class as taught was really good, RC got through some moves which by my limited WCS standards were quite complicated to lead properly. He even threw in workable variations too. It was obvious from both leaders and followers sides that there were quite a few non-WCS people doing the class. There were some really good WCS people too, unfortunately a sizeable group stayed at the back and didn't spread their experience and wisdom around (Sheepy excused, as he gave a reasonable excuse :wink: ). Having now heard some of the war stories, I suppose I can understand :whistle:

I have to agree with what people said about watching RC doing his modern jive bit, but it probably hit the mark for a lot of the people who were there last night.

Post class, it was a different story. I'm a big fan of Jon Brett, but overall, given the WCS class and crowd there, a lot of slower tracks would've been welcome. On a general note, it helps if two or three slower tracks are played back to back as it gives the budding West Coaster time to finish the dance he's probably just asked someone for, and then go and find another WCS partner, before it all speeds up again.

The other problem was in relation to floor craft. I know some people are not keen on Lindy for example, but I happen to enjoy it. I do try to ensure the safety of my partner and surrounding dancers at all times, whatever style I'm dancing, but people can sometimes get a bit exuberant, whatever they're dancing and I appreciate this can be frustrating, if not downright dangerous on occasions (thinking lifts and drops particularly). The thing was, last night it was the modern jivers who were quite often the problem. I can't count the number of times I experienced or witnessed people moving into the slot behind WCS dancers, where they were obviously aiming to place their partners. Can't we all try to be a bit more tolerant and observant of others' space on the floor?

As for Robert Cordoba's dancing, on two occasions I was stopped dead in my tracks. Once, when he was dancing with the fabulous Catriona Wiles, what a spectacle and an inspiration to try harder :worthy: . The other time, well that was with none other than DavidB - what a hoot!

Finally my apologies to those I didn't get to dance with, but I was hardly off the floor. In spite of the above it was a great night. :clap:

R-K

[ChrisA]

The other problem was in relation to floor craft. I know some people are not keen on Lindy for example, but I happen to enjoy it. I do try to ensure the safety of my partner and surrounding dancers at all times, whatever style I'm dancing, but people can sometimes get a bit exuberant, whatever they're dancing and I appreciate this can be frustrating, if not downright dangerous on occasions (thinking lifts and drops particularly). The thing was, last night it was the modern jivers who were quite often the problem.

As indeed it often is. I've been most careful to refer to the "inconsiderate Lindy people" rather than "the Lindy people", since some are very considerate, and I would not tar all with the same brush.

However, to my untutored eye, Lindy does seem to intrinsically need more space, and bad Lindy is often very flailing indeed.


Can't we all try to be a bit more tolerant and observant of others' space on the floor?
Regrettably, it would appear not.

As I've said before, the organisers have no real interest in solving the problem of dangerous and inconsiderate dancers, since it would hit them in their wallet, presumably (though I would pay more for a venue where it was solved).

And it's the inconsiderate ones that gain most, since they get all the space they want while the rest of us keep out of their way.

Grrrrr... :tears:

[Sheepman]

it would be nice if you could share your list of tracks with us Be prepared for rather a long list, I think I mentioned 400 or so for starters... and David has a whole lot more.

Greg

[Graham W]

Hello from Bristol!

I had a mixed night last night! This was my third time at WCS (huge gaps in between!) and as usual find Robert's instructions very easy to follow as he calls out the timing. However! Some of the Guys blatantly ignored his calling and instead of 1,2, 123, 123 in the sugar push, danced 1,2, 123, 1,2 and pulled through on that beat! Then to cap it all, when the Lady was supposed to do her 'thing', I followed RC's instructions to block the guys hand (hello, I am doing something!!!) and found myself in an arm wrestling competition with the Guy furiously attempting to pull me through! :what: :rofl: :what: When I was lucky enough to get a partner who had previously done WCS, it was lovely, although by then I had lost the confidence to do the 'Ladies' bit!

The up side was that I had some really lovely dances with some new people and some of the 'old hands' (thanks Sheepman - ever the Gent!), but managed to be 'perved' big time This is the second time - different Guy, I hasten to add! :sick:

The music was dissapointing and I had hoped for some WCS to follow the lesson and consolidate what I had just learned, but as Chris A says it was far too fast. And as for that Jive Aces track - sorry, but yuch!

As for RC - he really is a good ambassador for dance Gods - I didn't dance with him last night, but when he came to Bristol about 18 months ago, I had two dances with him and he gave me the impression that he enjoyed himself, despite the fact that I had only been dancing for 9 months! So as far as I am concerned, he gets my vote anytime! :clap: :clap: :clap:


Elaine

PS - Arrived home at 2.15am.............5 hours sleep............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

..he was fab in bristol last year - pitched the class to the people there (not Hipsters standard) gave a v good demo with Lily & made the demonstrator for a beginners class (the lovely Marie) look good at 10mins notice!

G

[jockey]

Well on this occasion I'm mostly criticising the music - elsewhere I've banged on about inconsiderate dancers on crowded floors.

I've been dancing at Hipsters for a couple of years or so now, and usually I've enjoyed it, except when it's been too packed to dance without stress. But I do think that the music mix needs updating, and I'm obviously not the only one.


Well, for most visiting teachers I'd agree. But Robert Cordoba isn't just any visiting teacher. And there were a number of people in the class that almost never do classes, which IMHO says a lot.

To put on predominantly slower music (for a change) to make it possible for those people (and lots of others) to benefit from such a treat is hardly hijacking the night.

ChrisI issued an invitation to all DJs on their own bit of this forum (which I found fascinating to read - which tracks they like and dislike; lots of slagging of for liking 'X' instead of 'Y'; qwhen to play it slow etc.,) to give me and anyone else inrterested a run down of the criteria for their playlist e.g., old favourites (when and where?) fast and slow (when and where?) difficult tracks vs easy etc.
This is a golden opportunity for them to hold forth: should the music be geared to that of the (noteworthy) visiting teacher for the benefit of those who have come sometimes miles especially to sample something different taught by a leader in that field? The answer is bl....dy obvious.... :yeah:

[jockey]

I issued an invitation to all DJs on their own bit of this forum (which I found fascinating to read - which tracks they like and dislike; lots of slagging of for liking 'X' instead of 'Y'; qwhen to play it slow etc.,) to give me and anyone else inrterested a run down of the criteria for their playlist e.g., old favourites (when and where?) fast and slow (when and where?) difficult tracks vs easy etc.
This is a golden opportunity for them to hold forth: should the music be geared to that of the (noteworthy) visiting teacher for the benefit of those who have come sometimes miles especially to sample something different taught by a leader in that field? The answer is bl....dy obvious.... :yeah:Postscript ~ The post was 133 on 'The DJ Booth' Favourite Dance Tracks..I just checked : thankyou for the response to 'why oh why so much latin?' but as yet there has been no response to my polite request for reasons DJs play what they do when they do..

[Lounge Lizard]

I was not there, but it is hard for any DJ with lots of Lindy/MJ/WCS dancers in the same venue - no way could JB please all

My approach in this circumstance is the busier the room the slower the music - this keeps dancing safer - if the organiser wants really fast music, limit the numbers to provide space for the resulting dance style

if you want WCS swing music I am playing a blues'ish set at Ashtons tonight - guaranteed to be WCS'able
LL

[ChrisA]

My approach in this circumstance is the busier the room the slower the music - this keeps dancing safer - if the organiser wants really fast music, limit the numbers to provide space for the resulting dance style

Ah... the voice of common sense. :clap:

And from one of the best...

Have some rep :cheers:

[Gadget]

The other problem was in relation to floor craft. ...The thing was, last night it was the modern jivers who were quite often the problem. I can't count the number of times I experienced or witnessed people moving into the slot behind WCS dancers, where they were obviously aiming to place their partners. Can't we all try to be a bit more tolerant and observant of others' space on the floor?
:confused: OK, I've never really witnessed WCS in a 'freestyle' situation; {and perhaps it's just my MJ upbringing?} but if I am on a busy dance floor and see a space open around me, then I will take advantage of it. Either by guiding my partner into it or moving into it my self. The only time I would pass it up is if it didn't suit what I was doing at that moment or I noticed someone about to move into it. If a WCS dancer on a mixed floor expects a slot to remain open behind them without checking, then more fool them.
Personally, I don't think that 'slots' can work on a crowded dance floor - you have to be flexable enough in your dance space to expand and contract into any oportune space. A fixed 'slot' is too ridged a form for this.
... Unless you are takling about line dancing :what:

[Savant]

Personally, I don't think that 'slots' can work on a crowded dance floor - you have to be flexable enough in your dance space to expand and contract into any oportune space. A fixed 'slot' is too ridged a form for this.

You could fit a lot more people doing WCS onto a dancefloor than you can fit people doing MJ. Dancing in a slot takes up a lot less space than dancing in a circular motion.

As for 'fixed' slots. Any half-decent WCS dancer will be able to lead his partner into space if there is one, and not if there isn't. Adjusting is as easy, if not easier than adjusting your modern jive to take advantage of space.

When you've actually seen some, Mr. Gadget, then maybe you'll be able to comment with more than a guess perhaps?

[Jon Brett]

Thanks for the feedback on the music last night everyone. Just wish you'd come to me and said it at the time, then I could do something about it on the spot.

Difficult choice having Hipsters regulars & lots of WCS visitors at the same time. Do you keep the visitors happy and upset the regulars, or keep the visitors happy & upset the regulars?

The "Jive Aces" track was a request from one of our regulars. Referring to my comment above, if you ain't happy, tell the DJ. If you want something played, tell the DJ. He might listen.

I was watching the floor the whole night & had a good floor throughout. Which is my job. It wouldn't be so crowded on the floor if I didn't. So to suggest that most people weren't happy is not a fair reflection on the evening.

As to new tracks, every week I play tracks you haven't heard before. Perhaps I should take more "risks" as suggested - I'll have a think on that one & bear it in mind.

Finally, thank you once again for the feedback. Keep it coming. I do read it all and think about it more than you perhaps realise!

[RobC]

but if I am on a busy dance floor and see a space open around me, then I will take advantage of it. Either by guiding my partner into it or moving into it my self.
And that is one important aspect of floorcraft that just isn't taught in your typical MJ night...... but more importantly


The only time I would pass it up is if ....... I noticed someone about to move into it.

And this is the part that all but the top dancers seem to forget. All to often 'leaders' are too wrapped up in what they are doing, occasionally looking out for space for their partner to dance in (if the follower is lucky) that they completely disregard everyone else dancing around them. :angry:

This is standard floorcraft, regardless of style, speed of music or anything else. It doesn't matter if you are doing MJ and the couple one side of you is Lindying, and you have a WCS on the other side with someone Quickstepping around the floor, it is common courtesy (which seems sadly lacking in today's society as a whole, not just in MJ) to pay attention to what everyone else around you is doing.

Going back to the WCS couple dancing next to you, it should be abundantly clear that all their movements are between point A and point B on the floor, and if they are part way through a sequence then may not be at point A/B at the time, but it's a fair bet that within a bar or two they will be back there. [/rant over]

Apart from that I had a great night :clap: Loved the music JB :cheers:

[bigdjiver]

[QUOTE=RobC]... This is standard floorcraft, regardless of style, speed of music or anything else. It doesn't matter if you are doing MJ and the couple one side of you is Lindying, and you have a WCS on the other side with someone Quickstepping around the floor, it is common courtesy (which seems sadly lacking in today's society as a whole, not just in MJ) to pay attention to what everyone else around you is doing. .. [QUOTE]

I think there is a quantum leap between floorcraft in MJ and floorcraft in a mixed environment. We all predict from experience. It does not take too much experience to recognise a Lindy swingout, or that they are going to kick this way after kicking that, but it does take some. Equally the MJ moves that involve travel are pretty easy to recognise early on, if you have that experience under your belt.

It is easier to recognise common moves than the less often seen expert ones. If you get experts from many different genres in one place, each strutting their specialist stuff, even the most advanced predictive skills are overloaded. In those circumstances the only solutions are lots of room to manouvre, or for everybody to "dance down", or for the dance to be genre restricted. In the days of ballroom each dance was identified by the time signature, and there was supposed to be only one dance form happening at a time. The versatility of MJ has brought its own problems.

[latinlover]

[QUOTE=bigdjiver In the days of ballroom each dance was identified by the time signature, and there was supposed to be only one dance form happening at a time. The versatility of MJ has brought its own problems.[/QUOTE]

In my admittedly limited experience of ballrom dancing, even when everyone is dancing the same dance in the same direction around the floor, floorcraft is still a major issue. I guess it always will be when you mix skill & experience levels.
I have witnessed 'Hotshots' and the clumsy beginners (I'm one myself) and the social dancers who are just having a good chat while they slow foxtrot around and get in people's way and aren't aware of what anyone else might do.
It's just the rich mixture of personalities that makes up human nature ,you will find the same patterns in all aspects of human interaction.
no amount of whingeing will make those who are so far up themselves change. Some who are interested enough will learn to cope better, some are not able to do anything other than concentrate on their own dancing.
It's life , just deal with it!

[Gadget]

Going back to the WCS couple dancing next to you, it should be abundantly clear that all their movements are between point A and point B on the floor, and if they are part way through a sequence then may not be at point A/B at the time, but it's a fair bet that within a bar or two they will be back there.
This is sort of my point; I'm dancing - my moves come one after another and fill the space available - I am not aware of every move that everyone else is doing arround me; If I am used to MJ, how am I meant to know that all their movements are between point A and B. Especially when the slot may be rotating to take advantage of their own space available?
From the previous posts, it sounds like WCS dancers expect everyone to keep their slot clear - "a bar or two" is a long time (4/4 music - 4 beats to the bar; 4-8 beats; 2-4 MJ counts): I could have done an MJ move and retracted from that space again in that time.

The main floorcraft skill of using space is identifying 'opening' spaces rather than 'closing' spaces. When I am moving out of a space, it is opening. When I am moving into a space it is closing. A truley 'free' space (neither opening or closing) is where most of the danger lies - anyone around it may want to take advantage of it.


You could fit a lot more people doing WCS onto a dancefloor than you can fit people doing MJ. Dancing in a slot takes up a lot less space than dancing in a circular motion.
I admit that dancing in a slot takes up less space than dancing in a circle would, but MJ is not dancing in a circle: most of it is amorphus - expanding and contracting. MJ is taught in a 'slot'. I dance in a 'cross' that rotates to fit the space.
If WCS is danced in a slot - like a matchstick, then if everyone was lined up in the same direction, and moved up and down the slot at the same times, I could see it could taking up less space. If MJ was danced in a strict circle - like a marble, then it would take up more space. But MJ is more like a jelly and the 'circles' squish and deform to take up all the space.


As for 'fixed' slots. Any half-decent WCS dancer will be able to lead his partner into space if there is one, and not if there isn't. Adjusting is as easy, if not easier than adjusting your modern jive to take advantage of space.So if it's not a 'fixed slot', and it's easy to adjust to fill space, then what's the problem with other dancers using the 'opening' space you just vacated?

When you've actually seen some, Mr. Gadget, then maybe you'll be able to comment with more than a guess perhaps?Perhaps. But does this not raise the same point? The people on the particular dance floor in discussion were mixed dancers, most only introduced to WCS recently; untill they have the experiance that BigDJiver mentioned, how are they to judge their floor craft? anticipate other dancers?

[Savant]

So if it's not a 'fixed slot', and it's easy to adjust to fill space, then what's the problem with other dancers using the 'opening' space you just vacated?
None. No problem.

And I would disagree with what Rhythm King said. You are not responsible to watch other dancers and not fill 'their' space. If there's a space on the dancefloor, then you can send your partner into it. And the WCS dancer who was intending to use that space will have to find another (this applies within reason of course).

WCS, while a slotted dance, does not have to be up and down the same tramlines for the entire 3.5 minutes. When dancing WCS, I wouldn't expect to face in only two directions the whole time.

On another note, I quite often find that (most) people are more reasonable when the floor is fuller. Conversely, I seem to be bumped into more often when the floor is emptier, as people then seem to think that they have a licence for big moves (not necessarily dips/aerials).

[Zebra Woman]

Thanks for the feedback on the music last night everyone. Just wish you'd come to me and said it at the time, then I could do something about it on the spot.

Difficult choice having Hipsters regulars & lots of WCS visitors at the same time. Do you keep the visitors happy and upset the regulars, or keep the visitors happy & upset the regulars?

...I was watching the floor the whole night & had a good floor throughout. Which is my job. It wouldn't be so crowded on the floor if I didn't. So to suggest that most people weren't happy is not a fair reflection on the evening.

...Finally, thank you once again for the feedback. Keep it coming. I do read it all and think about it more than you perhaps realise!

You want more? Are you Sure? Love you JB xxx

Not talking about Robert Cordoba night ...but Tuesday nights in general.
When Andy and Rena were teaching Lindy downstairs the freestyle music included Lindy tracks which were too fast for me to enjoy jiving to . I sat them out and it seemed fair enough at the time as Hipsters was billed as a mix of Modern Jive and Swing.

Now David and Lily are teaching WCS downstairs it seems logical to me to play a proportion of slower tracks for WCS. I don't feel that we are getting the same 'musical' consideration as the Lindy hoppers had. It seems to me that plenty of Lindy is still being played even though Lindy is not taught there anymore .

Is it just me?


When I learned Salsa 7 years ago it was a fledgling class in MK and all the freestyle music was slow/med and I remember the dances would regularly falling to pieces when the music reached a certain BPM. For the last few years the freestyle salsa music has been blastingly fast to satisfy the experienced dancers and teachers...and the poor beginners look on in awe for a bit and then drift off home. I think where footwork is involved there is a gradual speeding up that is part of the journey.

The difference between Salsa and WCS? Well one of them...... If you keep losing it in WCS 'cos the music is too fast for you, you can slip into jive and keep dancing....and the problem is invisible to the DJ.

Unless we go and tell him. Fair point JB. Although I did talk to you about this on 23rd Nov when you played a wonderfully slower than usual set. :clap:

Is it possible to keep us all happy JB? Tough Job . Rather you than me.

Alison xx

[MartinHarper]

To my untutored eye, Lindy does seem to intrinsically need more space

Interesting observation. Personally I find that my Lindy has the ability to use more space than my jive. I also find that with Lindy I can move around the floor quicker, because Lindy follows have more "momentum". However, I wouldn't say that my Lindy needs more space, because Lindy also gives me more options to dance small, compared to the jive I've been taught.

[Rhythm King]

None. No problem.

And I would disagree with what Rhythm King said. You are not responsible to watch other dancers and not fill 'their' space. If there's a space on the dancefloor, then you can send your partner into it. And the WCS dancer who was intending to use that space will have to find another (this applies within reason of course).

WCS, while a slotted dance, does not have to be up and down the same tramlines for the entire 3.5 minutes. When dancing WCS, I wouldn't expect to face in only two directions the whole time.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to suggest that people should give the WCS people a vacuum in which to dance, and I agree with what both you and Gadget have said about taking advantage of spaces which open up. David B and Paul Warden both teach that during WCS moves such as the whip, which involves the lady travelling, that one looks over one's shoulder first to ensure the slot is clear before potentially launching the lady into someone else. Incidentally when inflicting my inexperienced WCS lead on someone, I always try to stay at the side of the floor, parallel to the walls, so as to take up as little space as possible. My comments were directed more at a certain type of dancer who simply "closes down" other couples on the floor, for his own benefit, without any consideration. No matter how careful one is there will always be some bumps on a crowded floor, and recognition of this with a wave, or an apology is much nicer than being trampled on by the same person, more than once, without so much as a "by your leave" - or indeed being given a firm shove in the back by them, as happened on Tuesday :angry:


On another note, I quite often find that (most) people are more reasonable when the floor is fuller. Conversely, I seem to be bumped into more often when the floor is emptier, as people then seem to think that they have a licence for big moves (not necessarily dips/aerials).

I agree with you but, as you said yourself, if there's a space on the dancefloor, then you can send your partner into it, and also I think it depends on the speed of the music to some extent.

[Lory]

Difficult choice having Hipsters regulars & lots of WCS visitors at the same time. Do you keep the visitors happy and upset the regulars, or keep the visitors happy & upset the regulars?

Finally, thank you once again for the feedback. Keep it coming. I do read it all and think about it more than you perhaps realise!

I have to admit, I'm confused. Which regulars are you trying to keep happy? :confused:

Surely the WCS's are your regulars now? (as Lily and David teach that EVERY tuesday downstairs) along with MJ taught by Nigel upstairs. Yes, I can see you still have a few lindy Hoppers who you like to accommodate but surely you have to accept that your 'regulars' have now changed?

Am I a regular?

I positively hate Rock and Roll and fast Lindy stuff but I do accept, a few people like it and you have to play 'some' I use the time to grab a drink, freshen up and chat But I don't need to freshen up every 3rd track! The smoother the better for me! :innocent:

[David Franklin]

This is sort of my point; I'm dancing - my moves come one after another and fill the space available - I am not aware of every move that everyone else is doing arround me; If I am used to MJ, how am I meant to know that all their movements are between point A and B.You can't be aware of everything, but surely if you're sending someone into a space, you should be aware of whether someone else is about to move into it?


From the previous posts, it sounds like WCS dancers expect everyone to keep their slot clear - "a bar or two" is a long time (4/4 music - 4 beats to the bar; 4-8 beats; 2-4 MJ counts): I could have done an MJ move and retracted from that space again in that time.To a large extent, yes, that is the expectation. Part of the tradeoff of using a slot is: "In order to have enough space to move up and down the slot, I accept having to stay very close to the slot". If someone else is going "Ha! There's space in that slot I can grab!", then all you get are the bad points. It's still up to the slotted dancer to avoid the collision, but they won't appreciate your actions.

As for being able to do a MJ move and get out of the slot again in 1 bar: you must know a lot more 2 count MJ moves than I do!

In theory non-slotted is more flexible, but I see it as a bit like motorway driving. On one level, everyone should just use whatever lane they like, switching between them to optimize the flow, and going as close as possible to other cars to maximize capacity. In practice, it seems to work better (and is certainly a lot less stressful) to have rules. In particular, the car that spends all it's time going from lane to lane trying to use all available space causes a huge amount of stress for everyone around. If everyone is dancing in a slot I spend a lot less time worrying about collisions. :waycool:


The main floorcraft skill of using space is identifying 'opening' spaces rather than 'closing' spaces. When I am moving out of a space, it is opening. When I am moving into a space it is closing. But if I were to take your attitude of using space to the extreme, and jump into the space you vacated the moment you did so, I bet you would find it extremely uncomfortable, if not dangerous.

A truley 'free' space (neither opening or closing) is where most of the danger lies - anyone around it may want to take advantage of it. ~snip~ But MJ is more like a jelly and the 'circles' squish and deform to take up all the space. But the idea is NOT to use all the space! I don't want someone using the space 2 inches from my face, no matter how good a dancer they are. It's a difficult balance - if you're too diligent in keeping a safe distance from other couples, like motorway driving, you will find people sneaking into the 'gaps' and leaving you very cramped. But on the other hand, do you really want to be the couple with lots of space because everyone around has decided "they're too dangerous to be near?".

Dave

[ChrisA]

Thanks for the feedback on the music last night everyone. Just wish you'd come to me and said it at the time, then I could do something about it on the spot.

I would find this very difficult for two reasons. Firstly, I respect the fact that the DJ is crafting his set as the night progresses, and I don't see it as my right to go and moan about one particular track that I might not like (except the Jive Aces :devil: ).

Secondly, it takes me several tracks to build up a feeling for the shape of the music on a particular night - I'm busy dancing, so it's only after several tracks that I might start to feel "wait a minute, I'm not enjoying this, and it's because of the music rather than anything else".



Difficult choice having Hipsters regulars & lots of WCS visitors at the same time. Do you keep the visitors happy and upset the regulars, or keep the visitors happy & upset the regulars?
Well I'm not convinced these are mutually exclusive. But I've spoken to several people who are both Hipsters regulars and WCS dancers at one level or another, and they seem to share my view.

But as has been said, Hipsters is now Jive and WCS as far as the teaching is concerned (and :cheers: for that), not Jive and Lindy. I do think that should be reflected more in the music.



The "Jive Aces" track was a request from one of our regulars. Referring to my comment above, if you ain't happy, tell the DJ. If you want something played, tell the DJ. He might listen.
Ok, but you knew it was a crap idea to play it :flower: - you even apologised as you put it on. And god help us all if you start playing requests with any kind of frequency. I don't feel remotely competent to try and do your job at all, let alone while I'm busy concentrating on dancing, and I bet most people would be the same.

In fact, I don't want to hear my pet tracks, I want to experience the whole musical landscape over the course of the night, and that needs to be shaped by a craftsman, not hacked together by the locals :nice:



I was watching the floor the whole night & had a good floor throughout. Which is my job. It wouldn't be so crowded on the floor if I didn't. So to suggest that most people weren't happy is not a fair reflection on the evening.

Well, I didn't suggest most people weren't happy - I was speaking for myself and the few that I've spoken to.

But I think measuring success only by how many people are on the floor is a big mistake. Dancers come to dance, and mostly they'll dance even to awful stuff. Put the Mavericks on, and the floor fills. Even when Peter put that ghastly "dance" mix of Stairway to Heaven on, at Camber, people were rushing on to the floor. And why? Because it had a damn thump-thump beat. :tears:

I danced to it, in fact, but I hated it.

At risk of sounding elitist, I'll say this too:

You could achieve a packed floor by putting on pop music from one end of the night to the other... but the people there would be the ones that like a diet of pop. All the ones that love dancing to slower tracks, rich in colour and accents, would have gone elsewhere.

I reckon at Hipsters you've got one of the fussiest audiences out, and hence the most difficult job. You've given us such a lot of good stuff over the last couple of years that our expectations are very high.

So when people like me have a moan, it's because you've educated us to expect the best, and if it's only as good as it was last month, it's no longer good enough. We want you to inspire us, excite us, wrap us in velvet, tease us... reliably, every week, and for the high to get higher every time.

God knows how you (or any of the other really good DJs) do it at all, never mind most of the time. But speaking just for myself, I am finding your sets a touch samey at the moment :hug: :flower: :blush:



Finally, thank you once again for the feedback. Keep it coming. I do read it all and think about it more than you perhaps realise!
I know you do. And it's hugely appreciated, believe me :flower:

Chris

[Lory]

Firstly after rereading what I wrote, I'd like to apologise, it sounded way too harsh :blush: Chris has put it far more eloquently than I ever could. :worthy: And I'd like to highlight some the points I strongly agree with!
it takes me several tracks to build up a feeling for the shape of the music on a particular night - I'm busy dancing, so it's only after several tracks that I might start to feel "wait a minute,
:yeah:

I want to experience a whole musical landscape over the course of the night
:drool:

I reckon at Hipsters you've got one of the fussiest audiences out, and hence the most difficult job. You've given us such a lot of good stuff over the last couple of years that our expectations are very high. :yeah: :yeah:


So when people like me have a moan, it's because you've educated us to expect the best, :hug: :worthy: :hug: :worthy: :hug:

[Sheepman]

So if it's not a 'fixed slot', and it's easy to adjust to fill space, then what's the problem with other dancers using the 'opening' space you just vacated? This is not a problem IMO, it is what you expect, what is frustrating is when the person that has moved into that space "stakes a claim there" and doesn't move out of that space again, once that happens in front of you, behind you, and to the side, then there is nowhere else to go (I mostly dance at the edge of the floor). All of this is just "stuff that happens" on the dance floor, like it or not, you have to put up with it.
My main problems on Tuesday were down to other, particularly dangerous, west coasters, (as I'm sure the Oracle will verify :wink: ), in wcs the leader tends to move around far less than most jivers. This doesn't give the leader the right to use his partner as a lethal weapon! At least with most of the jivers, I found if they moved into your space, they will soon move out of it again.
Another one that really irritates me, is when people walking past, stand and watch you going up and down the slot for a while, and then walk straight into you as they try to go past :angry:

Greg

[Zebra Woman]

Firstly after rereading what I wrote, I'd like to apologise, it sounded way too harsh :blush: Chris has put it far more eloquently than I ever could. :worthy:
:hug: :worthy: :hug: :worthy: :hug:

:yeah: :yeah: I agree with Lory I think my post was a little harsh too .

I'm just so fussy now :blush:

Sorry JB......BIG HUG :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

Alison :flower:

[Sheepman]

The class was great, although my slot became so tight at times I was getting battered trying to get through it (hence shoulder injury). I have never seen so many WCS dancers in one room, and fab dancers taking the class too. Sorry to hear about your shoulder, and the fact that we didn't get a dance. Perhaps next time we can concentrate on measures for protection of your slot.

Greg

[Zebra Woman]

Sorry to hear about your shoulder, and the fact that we didn't get a dance. Perhaps next time we can concentrate on measures for protection of your slot.

Greg

???

:devil:

[Yogi_Bear]

Never having danced WCS or played any WCS tracks it would be nice if you could share your list of tracks with us Gus.Then if the occasion ever arises....
Trev
I haven't read to the end of this thread, but I first learnt WCS to Family Affair by Mary J Blige - a good place to start.
yb

[bobgadjet]

...... :yeah:

PS Did anyone else find it surprising that such an accomplished, stylish WCS dancer as RC could make MJ look so awful when attempting to demonstrate how to do his West Coast moves as MJ? :devil: I mean, armjives for goodness sake :what: :devil: :rolleyes:

I have been to a number of lessons from RC and ALL of them have been the most informative lessons ive ever experienced.
He takes a simple move and gives it flair.

Then, to be able to give ANY attempt at showing how to put a WCS move into MJ, W E L L I admirfe him for trying.

I remember my introduction to MJ from a few years of WCS was at Ashtons, when Linda asked me to put her thru some WCS, just after my second MJ lesson.
With my brain into MJ gear I could not initially think how I should even start WCS.

So, if RC chooses to do a couple of arm jives to get into the MJ mode, No problem from my end, why the fuss.

I don't know how much WCS you have done, but try alternating from MJ to WCS in one dance, then back agin (if the trak is long enuf and the right tempo) and see how you get on.

I had a great night. It was good to see so many familiar faces, WCS & MJ, and all that WCS in one night took me back a few years.

Well done JB, but I think the general pace could have been a bit slower overall, and still pleased most of the people most of the evening.

I'm looking forward to my next visit for some more WCS, but how do we identify those eager ladies who want to give it a go?

WCS T shirts maybe ?

[Gadget]

You can't be aware of everything, but surely if you're sending someone into a space, you should be aware of whether someone else is about to move into it?
Definetly: you can only see a space and movement arround it on a moment by moment basis - if that space is being encroached on, you don't use it. Simple.


As for being able to do a MJ move and get out of the slot again in 1 bar: you must know a lot more 2 count MJ moves than I do!
moves? I doubt it - I seldom do "moves" now; I string movements together: An un-wrap into that space followed by a lead in. A side-slide into that space, then stepping out to meet the lady again. a traveling return to end the lady in that space, then turn and lead her into a cattapult exit... there are millions of extension and contraction movements that can take one bar to use, then free a space.
Dancing in a tight space is different, challenging and requires a lot more improvisation and awareness of how to chop and change moves: a move you started may have to change half way through because the space is gone, or be directed elsewhere to avoid a collission. Since WCS relies more on a string of movements {or so I am lead to beleive}, I can see how dissruption to the flow may be considered an irritant. It can be argued that since MJ involves much smaller pieces, the 'flow' is less dissrupted.


In theory non-slotted is more flexible, but I see it as a bit like motorway driving... In particular, the car that spends all it's time going from lane to lane trying to use all available space causes a huge amount of stress for everyone around. [quote]
:D I lke the anology, but the point of floorcraft is not that you actually use all the space, but that you are aware that it is availble to be used if you need it/want it. You don't have to weave through the traffic - the occasional smooth lane change to one that suits your speed at the time is ideal. {Why do i have this image of "froggy" for the ZX spectrum?}
[quote]But if I were to take your attitude of using space to the extreme, and jump into the space you vacated the moment you did so, I bet you would find it extremely uncomfortable, if not dangerous.
You wouldn't/shouldn't notice - I'm not talking about invasion of personal space; just using opening spaces rather than closing spaces. Making sure a 'fixed' space is not about to become a closed space before entering it.
Most times a space is 'opening', the dancer opening it will be facing away from the space. If I enter into it, I would be be paying particular attention to the dancer(s) that just vacated it; they are the most likley to attampt to re-claim it when I am using it.


But the idea is NOT to use all the space! I don't want someone using the space 2 inches from my face, no matter how good a dancer they are. :yeah:
Unfortunetly, in most crowded dance floors you have to occasionally revert to 'defensive' dancing: planting the feet and holding your space - throwing your partner into spaces and retreiving them again - sliding your feet to take steps - holding your elbows out a bit further than normal - bum-nudging anyone that gets too close - ... this takes a lot of concentration, some pretty controlling leading, tense muscles, the occasional knock and is not much fun.
At one point I was beginning to have more dances like this than relaxed and enjoyable dances :tears:; I changed venue. :grin:

[ChrisA]

....throwing your partner into spaces and retreiving them again... holding your elbows out a bit further than normal - bum-nudging anyone that gets too close ... this takes a lot of concentration, some pretty controlling leading, tense muscles, the occasional knock and is not much fun.
Yuck. :sick:

Time to get off the floor rather than subject your partner to all this - or change venues, as you say. :tears:

Chris

[bobgadjet]

planting the feet and holding your space - throwing your partner into spaces and retreiving them again - sliding your feet to take steps - holding your elbows out a bit further than normal - bum-nudging anyone that gets too close - ...

How many dance partners would you loose dancing like this ?

Actually, is that really dancing" or dancefloor warfare ?

[Whitebeard]

I positively hate Rock and Roll ...... but I do accept, a few people like it ....
And I love it. It's an age thing of course, but I can hardly believe you can't respond to its raw and relatively unprocesssed quality. So alive and immediate in contrast to the metranomic beat and digital enhancement (?) of so much moderm stuff.

If you'd just let me have a couple of R & R tracks each evening I'd be much happier. As it is, its like waiting for gold dust.

[David Franklin]

I seldom do "moves" now; I string movements together: An un-wrap into that space followed by a lead in. A side-slide into that space, then stepping out to meet the lady again. a traveling return to end the lady in that space, then turn and lead her into a cattapult exit... there are millions of extension and contraction movements that can take one bar to use, then free a space. I hate it when someone uses this argument on me, but I bet if you actually videoed yourself, you'd find this isn't the case. Two counts is a very short time to comfortably send someone who wasn't blocking a slot into that slot and out again. You might do it once or twice, but if you were doing it all the time, I don't think it would make for a great dance. The far more usual experience is that the person grabbing the space takes several bars to relinquish it.


Since WCS relies more on a string of movements {or so I am lead to beleive}, I can see how dissruption to the flow may be considered an irritant. It can be argued that since MJ involves much smaller pieces, the 'flow' is less dissrupted.I don't know why you believe that - I would say WCS involves smaller pieces than MJ. (WCS basics are only 3 Ceroc counts long, there are dozens of moves only 3 or 4 counts in length, and people regularly extend moves by single counts). But it's a 'new' dance over here, so 90% of WCS dancers are still beginners (me definitely included); obviously this makes a difference in the ability to chop and change when people get in the way. But the other point is that I don't want to have to chop and change - that's one of the reasons why I also dance MJ in a slot.


I lke the anology, but the point of floorcraft is not that you actually use all the space, but that you are aware that it is availble to be used if you need it/want it. You don't have to weave through the traffic - the occasional smooth lane change to one that suits your speed at the time is ideal. That's very different from what you said earlier. The image you gave me was very much that of the guy in the sports car who spends all his time 6 inches from people's bumpers while slipping side-to-side looking for overtaking opportunities. Whereas everyone maneuvers occasionally as conditions change.


You wouldn't/shouldn't notice - I'm not talking about invasion of personal space; just using opening spaces rather than closing spaces. I wasn't talking about personal space. For sake of argument, suppose your comfort zone is 12 inches of space. As you move forwards, I stay 12 inches behind you - is that a problem? Well, yes, because now you can't move backwards without breaking the 12 inch zone, so your options are limited. So you decide to swap places with your partner, but unfortuately my evil doppelganger is doing the same thing to her, so the space she was in has disappeared by the time you get there! :eek: You are soon reduced to playing American Football as a less extreme contact sport where at least you get to wear padding...

OK, that's an extreme, but it's certainly possible to be too aggressive in using space. Floorcraft isn't just avoiding collisions; it's avoiding getting in people's way, and, ideally, doing all this avoidance in a way that doesn't affect your partner or the other couples unduly. And I don't see there's any way of dancing across people's slots without affecting them - at the least they have to spend a lot more time watching out for you.


Unfortunetly, in most crowded dance floors you have to occasionally revert to 'defensive' dancing:
At one point I was beginning to have more dances like this than relaxed and enjoyable dances :tears:; I changed venue. :grin:Of course, part of floorcraft is not getting on the floor when it's too crowded - though I think most of us have sinned here from time to time!

Dave

[Gus]

Of course, part of floorcraft is not getting on the floor when it's too crowded - though I think most of us have sinned here from time to time!And so the argument goes in its usual circle again. Floorcraft is only part of the issue ... the REAL issue is promoters 'packing them in'! Does anyone want to volunteer ANY promoter that manages numbers at their venue? Time for another 'name and shame' thread Andy? :whistle:

[David Franklin]

And so the argument goes in its usual circle again. Floorcraft is only part of the issue ... the REAL issue is promoters 'packing them in'! Does anyone want to volunteer ANY promoter that manages numbers at their venue? Time for another 'name and shame' thread Andy? :whistle:
Funnily enough, Franco does limit numbers for the NYE event - but on the other hand it's not cheap! As I recall, 2 years ago he asked people "What would you prefer, 250 people at £25 each or 300 at £20 each" (numbers made up but vaguely representative). The decision was to go for more space, even if it meant more expensive tickets.

Dave

[RobC]

Funnily enough, Franco does limit numbers for the NYE event - but on the other hand it's not cheap! As I recall, 2 years ago he asked people "What would you prefer, 250 people at £25 each or 300 at £20 each" (numbers made up but vaguely representative). The decision was to go for more space, even if it meant more expensive tickets.

Dave
And I for one would happily pay that extra £5 if I knew I would have room to dance (If Ceroc wasn't already running a NYE party in Bisley (http://www.ceroc.org.uk/NYparty.htm) :clap: also limited numbers with 2 rooms, one Jive and one WCS :waycool: )

[Sheepman]

Does anyone want to volunteer ANY promoter that manages numbers at their venue? Here's one, maybe it is the only one that regulates numbers at their regular events? Jag Jive. An excellent venue, great music, great atmosphere, but after complaints that it was too busy, the organiser asked US, the dancers, what the limit on numbers should be! After a bit of experimentation it is now just right. The event sells out nearly every month, it is run for charity, and on top of all that, it is the cheapest dance night out I know, even on a Saturday night.

Greg

[djtrev]

Gus,Sheepman,Oracle-you never did give me any ideas for WCS music.Just enough to fill a cd would be more than welcome and very much appreciated.
I am always on the lookout for new music and do like to be prepared for any eventuality

[MartinHarper]

How many dance partners would [Gadget] lose dancing [defensively]?

When dancing on crowded floors, I always appreciate a partner with good floorcraft. I expect Gadget got nothing but kudos for his mad skillz.

[Gus]

Gus,Sheepman,Oracle-you never did give me any ideas for WCS music.Just enough to fill a cd would be more than welcome and very much appreciated.
I am always on the lookout for new music and do like to be prepared for any eventualityWanted to PM you but you seem to have all email and PM options disabled. :sick: Not trying to be obtrusive but I'm not really in a position to post any of the playlists given to me. Sheepman did me a huge favour in helping me out but its his playlist and its not for me to forward on without his permission. Similalry, DavidB showed me a few tracks as a personal favour. Playlists are a very personal and 'expensive' item. To get my last 30 tracks I had to listen to over 1000 samples and probably invested somewhere around 30 manhours .... an investemnent that i'm obviously not just going to hand out. I dont know about Shepman and David but I would guess that they too spend a lot of time and effort in assimilating thier listings... so please understand the reticence in just handing out such listings.

I would suggets that you PM both the above gentlemen so that you can exchange recommendations out of the public gaze.

[David Franklin]

Not trying to be obtrusive but I'm not really in a position to post any of the playlists given to me. Sheepman did me a huge favour in helping me out but its his playlist and its not for me to forward on without his permission. Similalry, DavidB showed me a few tracks as a personal favour. Playlists are a very personal and 'expensive' item. To get my last 30 tracks I had to listen to over 1000 samples and probably invested somewhere around 30 manhours .... an investemnent that i'm obviously not just going to hand out.All very reasonable and fair enough. However, the US DJ's aren't exactly shy about what they play, so I can give a few leads:
http://www.tngsdc.org/bbtb/2004/Music/
http://www.streetswing.com/1swgmus.htm & http://www.streetswing.com/2swgmus.htm
http://www.usaswingnet.com/top_dj_tunes.htm
http://www.coloradoswingdance.org/Music/westcoastswing.htm

As you'll see, there's actually a lot of overlap between WCS and MJ - RC didn't seem fazed by Toby's playlist last night @ Kent House... :worthy: So I'm wondering if the issue is more about finding tracks slow and regular enough for beginners. "Chains" (Tina Arena) & "Shackles" (Mary Mary) spring to mind but are perhaps overplayed...

Dave

[DavidB]

Oracle-you never did give me any ideas for WCS music.I published this list somewhere else recently, and it gives an idea of what I play.

911 - 'A Little Bit More' (Pop, 096 bpm, Teaching, Very Good)
Alannah Myles - 'Black Velvet' (Blues, 091 bpm, Teaching, Excellent)
Blackstreet - 'Take Me There (ABC Remix)' (Pop, 097 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Blair - 'Have Fun, Go Mad' (Funk, 097 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Blu Cantrell - 'Hit 'Em Up Style (Oops!) (Radio Mix)' (RnB, 090 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Britney Spears - 'My Prerogative (Album Version)' (Pop, 111 bpm, Intermediate, Excellent)
Destiny's Child - 'Emotion' (RnB, 087 bpm, Teaching, Excellent)
Harriett - 'Every Man Needs A Woman' (Blues, 103 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Jody Lei - 'How Dirty Can You Get' (RnB, 095 bpm, Intermediate, Excellent)
Jr Walker - 'Cleos Mood' (Blues, 108 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Jurassic 5 - 'Jayou' (Rap, 098 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Koffee Brown - 'Some Bridges Need Burning' (Soul, 104 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Maroon 5 - 'This Love' (Pop, 095 bpm, Teaching, Excellent)
Maxi Priest - 'Close To You' (Soul, 096 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Michael Jackson - 'You Rock My World' (Pop, 095 bpm, Teaching, Good)
Nikki Costa - 'Everybody Got Their Somebody' (RnB, 104 bpm, Teaching, Excellent)
Queen Latifah - 'The Same Love That Made Me Laugh' (RnB, 099 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Rolling Stones - 'Miss You' (Rock, 105 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Sarah Connor - 'Bounce (Us Radio Version)' (RnB, 096 bpm, Teaching, Excellent)
The 411 - 'Drop Top Jeans (feat. Spoony)' (RnB, 093 bpm, Intermediate, Excellent)
The 411 - 'Teardrops' (RnB, 100 bpm, Beginner, Very Good)
Tina Arena - 'Chains' (Ballad, 092 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Tina Turner - 'Let's Stay Together' (Rock, 104 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Toni Braxton - 'Another Sad Love Song (Short)' (Dance, 096 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
Tweet - 'Make Ur Move' (RnB, 107 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)
VS - 'Make It Hot' (RnB, 102 bpm, Beginner, Excellent)

[Sheepman]

I had to listen to over 1000 samples and probably invested somewhere around 30 manhours .... I feel that I should be spending around 30 hours a week listening to music that's new to me, to stand any chance of keeping up, though I mostly can't manage that much, but I have posted a 2 or 3 west coast playlists over the last year, which should be easy enough to find with a few searches, this one is one where I used more than the usual number of MJ favourites (some overplayed?) :-Bisley playlist (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60588&postcount=11)

Greg

[Sheepman]

I published this list somewhere else recently, and it gives an idea of what I play. A great list, David, and a reminder of a few recent tracks that I must add to my playlist for Bognor ... :whistle:

Greg

[bobgadjet]

A great list, David, and a reminder of a few recent tracks that I must add to my playlist for Bognor ... :whistle:

Greg
Me too.

Maybe this is in the wrong thread, but,

Off the forthcoming new releases, for WCS check out.......
Blue - Get down on it, good remake of Kool & gang
Tin Tin Out fe. Sharon Woolf - Earth & Stars, also a good Samba
Akon - Locked up
Linsey Lohan - Rumours
The Roots - I don't care
and you might just try
Xzibit - Hey now, the "clean" version. a bit hip hoppish, but different and interesting.

[bigdjiver]

Wanted to PM you ...
Me too, on another matter.

I posted an MJ playlist to a dance forum some time ago asking which tracks were suitable for WCS and the unanimous (3) response was "all of them".

[Geordieed]

RC didn't seem fazed by Toby's playlist last night @ Kent House...


Toby does have by far one of the best playlists around but I would be worried if RC did get fazed by it. What hope would the rest of us have. I took the rare opportunity to sit out at one point to watch Viktor and RC dancing at the same time to see the differences. Great night, well done Toby.

[djtrev]

Quote;
Sheepman did me a huge favour in helping me out but its his playlist and its not for me to forward on without his permission. Similalry, DavidB showed me a few tracks as a personal favour. Playlists are a very personal and 'expensive' item. To get my last 30 tracks I had to listen to over 1000 samples and probably invested somewhere around 30 manhours .... an investemnent that i'm obviously not just going to hand out. I dont know about Shepman and David but I would guess that they too spend a lot of time and effort in assimilating thier listings... so please understand the reticence in just handing out such listings

I understand completely Gus.I hold the same opinion.I was actually thinking in terms of tried and tested tracks that are perhaps in your opinion overplayed.I am afraid I wouldnt know where to begin looking for the music as I am not at all familiar with the dance.I generally take the attitude that if its a track on general release and freely available from most high street outlets then I am quite happy to pass it on but if its a track that is somewhat obscure-Vem Vet,InGrid etc-I am a little reticent in handing out such listings.

I also spend an awful lot of my spare time trying to find and listen to tracks that might be suitable for MJ.I am extremely grateful to this forum for giving me lots of suggestions via the playlists that appear every now and then.

Thank also to Sheepman,DavidB and Bobgajet for your help and information.
Well thats my weekend sorted then.

[djtrev]

I have just checked your playlist for Bisley,Sheepman and I am surprised that there are quite a few that I use for MJ.
But there is one name that keeps cropping up in the playlists that I have never heard of and never been able to find.LEMON.Its almost become an obsession with me now-I am determined to hear just what this guy sounds like.

[Rhythm King]

I have just checked your playlist for Bisley,Sheepman and I am surprised that there are quite a few that I use for MJ.
But there is one name that keeps cropping up in the playlists that I have never heard of and never been able to find.LEMON.Its almost become an obsession with me now-I am determined to hear just what this guy sounds like.

Try here (http://www.clubmontepulciano.com/label/index.html)

R-K

[Sheepman]

I have never heard of and never been able to find.LEMON. I'm pretty sure that's another one that is down to Peter (LL) for uncovering ... :clap: :clap:
(Though Latin Lover would possibly be on a lot of people's overplayed lists by now, but it has been around quite a while, Won't You Join Me For A Drink? and Easy Tiger are still favourites of mine to dance to.)

Greg

[Lynn]

Try here (http://www.clubmontepulciano.com/label/index.html)

R-K I wouldn't have recognised the name, but when I heard it I recognised Latin Lover - a popular track in salsa here. Wouldn't mind adding it to my collection (trying to build up some playlists for the dancers here in NI).

[djtrev]

My email and pm have now been enabled.

[ChrisA]

Jon Brett is THE man.

Blistering set tonight.

Luscious, end to end. Top man.

:clap:

Chris

[Andreas]

When I learned Salsa 7 years ago it was a fledgling class in MK and all the freestyle music was slow/med and I remember the dances would regularly falling to pieces when the music reached a certain BPM. For the last few years the freestyle salsa music has been blastingly fast to satisfy the experienced dancers and teachers...and the poor beginners look on in awe for a bit and then drift off home. I think where footwork is involved there is a gradual speeding up that is part of the journey.


I think that is where you are wrong!

Yes, the music got faster and faster, hideously fast, actually.

No, it is not to satisfy teachers and advanced dancers. Most advanced dancers will always prefer slow to medium music because it is more challenging to create a nice dance using the music - same in MJ/Ceroc. Playing fast music is for impressing people. The end result is that even those teachers and so-called advanced dancers that request it have either no idea how to count themselves through the music (or out of a paper bag for that matter) or they do not know that the idea is to dance to the music.

I danced with a so-called advanced girl the other night to a medium song and she constantly tried to make it a race. Then I saw her dance with another guy to a fast piece of music and still they were way too fast.

The fast music they play sucks because you cannot do any more complicated moves as there is not enough time for the girls to recover a triple spin, sometimes not even a double and the likes. These people need some lessons in music before they should be let loose on the dance community! :( :sad:

[Zebra Woman]

Jon Brett is THE man.
Chris
:yeah: He is THE DADDY :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:
I loved the music last night and so did everyone I asked (except one guy who hadn't noticed any difference :confused: ). There was so much variety and all great to dance to. I had plenty of chances to practise my WCS...so I have no excuses now :blush: .

Last night, just like in the old days.... I heard two new tracks that I loved, but the rest of the music was so good so I didn't get round to asking what it was. That is my kind of night. :clap:

Thanks JB

BIG HUG :hug: :hug: :hug:

ZW :flower:

[Lory]

:yeah: He is THE DADDY :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:
I loved the music last night and so did everyone I asked (except one guy who hadn't noticed any difference :confused: ). There was so much variety and all great to dance to. I had plenty of chances to practise my WCS...so I have no excuses now :blush: .

Last night, just like in the old days.... I heard two new tracks that I loved, but the rest of the music was so good so I didn't get round to asking what it was. That is my kind of night. :clap:


Sounds like I missed out on brilliant night, :tears: Gutted! :tears:

Well done JB! I know if ZW loved it, I would have too! :na:

More of the same next week please! :flower:

[bobgadjet]

Sounds like I missed out on brilliant night, :tears: Gutted! :tears:

Well done JB! I know if ZW loved it, I would have too! :na:

More of the same next week please! :flower:


Me too, oh bu**er.
My fault for doing a family thing. Back to the dance floor next week then, for definate.

[under par]

:yeah: He is THE DADDY :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:
I loved the music last night and so did everyone I asked

Last night, just like in the old days.... I heard two new tracks that I loved, but the rest of the music was so good so I didn't get round to asking what it was. That is my kind of night. :clap:

Thanks JB

BIG HUG :hug: :hug: :hug:

ZW :flower:

First night out for nearly six weeks since Mrs Par broke her toe.

WOW J.B. excellent set.: :clap:

I just didn't want the evening to end.

Thanks ZW and Sparkles for some lovely dances, sorry I was a bit rusty.
:hug:

[SilverFox]

:yeah: He is THE DADDY :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:
I loved the music last night and so did everyone I asked (except one guy who hadn't noticed any difference :confused: ). There was so much variety and all great to dance to. I had plenty of chances to practise my WCS...so I have no excuses now :blush: .

Last night, just like in the old days.... I heard two new tracks that I loved, but the rest of the music was so good so I didn't get round to asking what it was. That is my kind of night. :clap:

Thanks JB

BIG HUG :hug: :hug: :hug:

ZW :flower:
:yeah: Couldn't agree more!

JB played an absolute blinder. Last night will feature in my top 5 nights of dancing so far. :waycool: :worthy:

Please keep up the good work! :cheers:

[Sheepman]

Jon Brett is THE man.

Blistering set tonight.

Luscious, end to end. Top man. :yeah:
I probably west coasted all but about 4 tracks, and that was mainly because my partners didn't. Trouble is, I'm going to forget the jive at this rate! :really:
I particularly liked Kylie's "Boy" (I think that was the one) a great west coast track, but I did wonder what the MJers would make of it, I did notice the floor filling up a lot more when the next track came on. Just proving how difficult it is to get the balance right, and it's never possible to please everyone all the time.

Greg

[Feelingpink]

:yeah: Couldn't agree more!

JB played an absolute blinder. Last night will feature in my top 5 nights of dancing so far. :waycool: :worthy:

Please keep up the good work! :cheers:

Botheration! That will teach me to work late! :( Looking forward to next Tuesday (the Christmas one), when hopefully JB will still be on cracking form :clap:

[senorita]

:yeah: Couldn't agree more!

JB played an absolute blinder. Last night will feature in my top 5 nights of dancing so far. :waycool: :worthy:

Please keep up the good work! :cheers:

The music was awesome, thanks Jon Brett! :clap: :hug: :worthy:
Can you play some slow/sexy R&B too?? :flower: :drool: