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View Full Version : The role of the ceroc website



stewart38
6th-December-2004, 12:18 PM
This was advertised and still is on ceroc website

04/12/2004
Amersham Freestyle
at The Amersham Polish Club, Raans Road, Amersham
Admission £8
Start: 8:00pm
End: 11:30am
Click here for more information
or phone 01494 772 935


Only draw back is it was cancelled and moved back a week. the site was advised on wednesday. How many people turned up anyway I dont know ?

Not sure what people think as I would always take that website as read and if the event is posted on there Im not going to check by fone before hand to confirm, though of course will now :sick:

Dreadful Scathe
6th-December-2004, 01:04 PM
I couldnt find it on ceroc.com as I have no idea what county Amersham is in and you cant search - you can only select county or day. Nothing appears for Saturday at all.
Dodgy coded 'search' anyway - just got a 'You have an error in your SQL syntax near 'ORDER BY venue ASC' at line 1' error ;)

Saying that though, theres no way you can expect ceroc.com to be completely up to date, thats why numbers are listed for venues - you should phone and check for availability. They should make that clear though.

http://www.cerocchilterns.co.uk/ isnt much better - nothing appears on front page except graphics and some button links which then open up info on a completely seperate page :) coded for IE perhaps :)

bigdjiver
6th-December-2004, 05:35 PM
... Saying that though, theres no way you can expect ceroc.com to be completely up to date...
I disagree. In this day and age the websites should be updated with such information within an hour of the venue manager being aware. It can be set up to do this.

Even Network rail have some station departure boards online now, and they have enabled me to catch trains scheduled to leave before I left the house.

Gus
6th-December-2004, 05:42 PM
I disagree. In this day and age the websites should be updated with such information within an hour of the venue manager being aware. It can be set up to do this..Sorry, but diagree. How much spare resources do you think dance organisations have to maintain their websites? Many of the organisations are one-man bands like myslef and we have enough time pressure making sure the actual nights take place without all the time we have to (somehow) divert to marketing and information activities. Even the Dark Empire (aka Ceroc) dont have infinite resources ... and communications with franchisees is not always easy.

[I hearby apologise to anyone offended by me sticking up for Ceroc(tm). Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible]

stewart38
6th-December-2004, 05:57 PM
I disagree. In this day and age the websites should be updated with such information within an hour of the venue manager being aware. It can be set up to do this.

Even Network rail have some station departure boards online now, and they have enabled me to catch trains scheduled to leave before I left the house.

Agree , I cant talk for smaller web sites (much of content on some is months out of date anyway)

But the national web site you would expect to be updated at least daily :mad:

Dreadful Scathe
6th-December-2004, 05:57 PM
I disagree. In this day and age the websites should be updated with such information within an hour of the venue manager being aware. It can be set up to do this.

I'm in this business, I know how automated a web site can be and maybe websites "should" be updated quickly, given that there "could be" a simple interface to allow for this - but - Which Ceroc employee is available to do that 24 hours a day so that your "within an hour" can be practical? Web pages do make sharing information quick and easy but, lest we forget, it takes real people to do the work.




Even Network rail have some station departure boards online now, and they have enabled me to catch trains scheduled to leave before I left the house.

Even Network Rail ? They run the railways, they get millions in subsidies, they have whole offices dealing with automating of statistics, timetables and the like....I can see why you would equate that with a franchise dance company ;).

Lou
6th-December-2004, 05:57 PM
Sorry, but diagree. How much spare resources do you think dance organisations have to maintain their websites? Many of the organisations are one-man bands like myslef and we have enough time pressure making sure the actual nights take place without all the time we have to (somehow) divert to marketing and information activities. Even the Dark Empire (aka Ceroc) dont have infinite resources ... and communications with franchisees is not always easy.

[I hearby apologise to anyone offended by me sticking up for Ceroc(tm). Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible]
Bah! Humbug! That's nonsense, my dear ODA!

The Dark Empire should use the technology available. It isn't exactly rocket science, especially if it was to make use of the uk-jive database.... (that way, it wouldn't even have had to code it itself)... *sheesh!* :devil:

latinlover
6th-December-2004, 06:01 PM
I disagree. In this day and age the websites should be updated with such information within an hour of the venue manager being aware. It can be set up to do this.

Even Network rail have some station departure boards online now, and they have enabled me to catch trains scheduled to leave before I left the house.

:yeah:
I would have thought ,IMHO, that if ,as a venue manager you had to cancel a night , then the most efficient way of informing the largest number of people would be by posting the news on the website?

or have I missed the point somewhere? :devil:

and as it is the largest organisation I ,as a humble punter, would expect Ceroc to have the most resources available to make it the best website avilable?
as it is , I have learned that there is almost never any up to date information on the ceroc website that I can use , so I hardly ever visit it now
it took them about 2 weeks to post the results of the ceroc champs this year,as I remember !

Dreadful Scathe
6th-December-2004, 06:12 PM
I think its clear that Ceroc don't have someone to do the updating in a timely fashion - so the question is wether we think they should have someone doing this ? I'd be inclined to say they should as well. Myself and Gus's argument is the same - it comes down to resources, but it could be argued that Ceroc HQ are not small scale in the same way as the individual franchisees can be said to be small. Also, they did have a major site overhaul which suggests they know how important a tool the WWW is.

So, especially in light of BBC cameras at the Champs and vouchers in with a major DVD release - do we all agree that for Ceroc to neglect to keep their website up to date and current is a bad idea. I've come round to this view now. :D

Do we all concur ? ;)

stewart38
6th-December-2004, 06:19 PM
I think its clear that Ceroc don't have someone to do the updating in a timely fashion - so the question is wether we think they should have someone doing this ? I'd be inclined to say they should as well. Myself and Gus's argument is the same - it comes down to resources, but it could be argued that Ceroc HQ are not small scale in the same way as the individual franchisees can be said to be small. Also, they did have a major site overhaul which suggests they know how important a tool the WWW is.

So, especially in light of BBC cameras at the Champs and vouchers in with a major DVD release - do we all agree that for Ceroc to neglect to keep their website up to date and current is a bad idea. I've come round to this view now. :D

Do we all concur ? ;)

I would say dont have a web site if you cant keep it up todate. Have all ceroc Franchises been told to have one ,some are so much better then others

Im talking re a certain site still advertising a Halloween ball

I know small operators would have operational issues but i think if an event is cancelled, the web site should be changed.

Lory
6th-December-2004, 06:20 PM
I disagree. In this day and age the websites should be updated with such information within an hour of the venue manager being aware. It can be set up to do this.

:yeah:

I was SO lucky on Saturday!.........

I was within half an hour of leaving my house for Amersham, I checked the website for directions and there was nothing about the cancellation!!! But thankgoodness a friend rang me in the nick of time! :really: :clap:

I would have been extremely p***ed off if I'd driven 45mins, only to found out later, they knew it was OFF since Wednesday! :mad:

Franck
6th-December-2004, 06:35 PM
Bah! Humbug! That's nonsense, my dear ODA!

The Dark Empire should use the technology available. It isn't exactly rocket science, especially if it was to make use of the uk-jive database.... (that way, it wouldn't even have had to code it itself)... *sheesh!* :devil:The fault doesn't lie with the technology, which is there and ready to be used, but rather with individuals who forget to email the change to the Ceroc office etc...
Everytime I update my front page, I *should* email Ceroc HQ as well, I know I should, but often don't...

It would be wonderful to have an up to date resource on ceroc.com but I have to say that even uk-jive isn't up to date if individual organisers don't maintain the information...

David Franklin
6th-December-2004, 06:42 PM
The fault doesn't lie with the technology, which is there and ready to be used, but rather with individuals who forget to email the change to the Ceroc office etc...But if you read the post that started this thread, Stewart38 says the website was informed (on Wednesday).

Have to agree with the majority here - particularly in the case of a cancellation, there's no excuse for taking more than 24 hours to update the website.

But for a couple of years now, the main Ceroc website has seemed to be a triumph of style and branding over substance, si I'm not holding my breath for changes... (And to be fair, it's a step up from the near-derelict site it used to be - it's just a shame so much effort went on the looks and so little on the content).

Dave

Gus
6th-December-2004, 06:52 PM
I would say dont have a web site if you cant keep it up todate..ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE! Websites perform many purposes ...notification of changes to events is just one part of it. Having a website up with basic club information and marketing pages is invaluable to all MJ clubs, regardless of size.

I'm afraid that some of the peope making these comments appear to have no idea about what its like to try to maintain a small business with limited resources. For myslef, I agree in part with Lou, just updating UK-Jive and providing a live feed into ones own Website makes sense. HOWEVER, most people seem to keep on banging on about the technology. As with most things in buiness, its the PROCESS that is the issue .. .how do you get from a trigger (finding out that an event has changed) through to a final action of notification.

My real-life experince has been that a MINORITYof local dancers refer to the websites. Its bad enough when you email them directly with information that they dont even bother reading ... so dont out any hope of them flocking en-masse to your website to keep a constant check!


I know small operators would have operational issues but i think if an event is cancelled, the web site should be changed.AGREE. A cancelled event puts a real onus on the organiser to take every step to stop people travelling. We tend to rely more on our mobile hotline and information phone line though. Maybe older technology but extremly effective!

Lou
6th-December-2004, 07:29 PM
My real-life experince has been that a MINORITYof local dancers refer to the websites. Its bad enough when you email them directly with information that they dont even bother reading ... so dont out any hope of them flocking en-masse to your website to keep a constant check!
Ahhh, but dearheart - the problem is when someone bothers to check the website, but finds incorrect information there.

And yes, of course it's about process - however, there are the tools out here to make the changes quicly and easily, and it takes less than 1 minute to update. Or are you suggesting that certain club owners respect their punters so little, that they'd not even devote that much time to keep them updated? :devil:

David Franklin
6th-December-2004, 07:40 PM
Re: Websites should be kept up to date, or you shouldn't bother.


ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE! Websites perform many purposes ...notification of changes to events is just one part of it. Having a website up with basic club information and marketing pages is invaluable to all MJ clubs, regardless of size.Yeah, but that information doesn't go out of date, so it's not a problem. If you give yearly information, you don't have to update very often. If you give event info on a daily basis, then you really do need to update much more often.


I'm afraid that some of the peope making these comments appear to have no idea about what its like to try to maintain a small business with limited resources. As with most things in buiness, its the PROCESS that is the issue .. .how do you get from a trigger (finding out that an event has changed) through to a final action of notification.The thing is, it's all about how you set things up (and I don't mean the technology). If you have a website like the Ceroc one, where appearance is really important, and you can search for stuff in your area, and you try to have day-to-day schedules, then that is going to be hard work to keep up. But if you basically have a page of text, then making changes is going to be very quick and easy (and I don't have ANY fancy tools - I use notepad to edit the HTML). And if you only have a local basic list of events, with only occasional stuff that needs changing (i.e. if you always have a Wednesday night, you don't have to change it), then it's really not that onerous.

On the other hand, I haven't updated my webpage (other than uploading dance clips) for about 10 months, so... :blush:


My real-life experince has been that a MINORITYof local dancers refer to the websites. Its bad enough when you email them directly with information that they dont even bother reading ... so dont out any hope of them flocking en-masse to your website to keep a constant check!My impression is that Lynda's List (http://www.lyndaslist.com/) :clap: gets visited quite a lot; I certainly use it.

Dave

MartinHarper
7th-December-2004, 12:02 AM
Which Ceroc employee is available to do that 24 hours a day so that your "within an hour" can be practical?

There's no need for a single Ceroc employee to be a bottleneck. You could just let franchisees update their own details, via a web form. Similarly, I can update my profile on this forum without requiring manual intervention by Franck.

-Martin (web developer)

Whitebeard
7th-December-2004, 01:38 AM
You could just let franchisees update their own details, via a web form.
That would require some initial effort, initiative, and expense, on the part of Ceroc HQ; but would henceforth put the onus (and this should be stated on the parent site) firmly on individual franchisees/organisers to keep information on their venues up to date. This would be a fairly low tech solution, capable of being used by even the least web savvy of such organisers. Seems a good way to go to me.

However, I wonder, yet again, why the main Ceroc site does not even maintain a current listing of beginner and intermediate moves ??? There really isn't much there to prompt a regular revisit.

bigdjiver
7th-December-2004, 02:31 AM
... In this day and age the websites should be updated with such information within an hour of the venue manager being aware. It can be set up to do this....

The staff availiability argument: ... "the venue manager being aware" sort of implies they were availiable.

The technology expenive/ complicated / whatever argument - you all just posted responses here within minutes of reading the thread. It could easily be a bit of whiteboard on the home page

Dreadful Scathe
7th-December-2004, 10:38 AM
There's no need for a single Ceroc employee to be a bottleneck. You could just let franchisees update their own details, via a web form.

Indeed, but as Whitebeard says - that requires initial effort on the part of Ceroc. Bearing in mind just how long it took them to get a reasonable looking site in the first place Im not sure the web site is high up on their priority list. I would agree it should be though, because with that initial effort they then can have current information. The onus would then be on venue managers to keep their info up to date. Understandable that they dont bother now when they know Ceroc will only "eventually" get around to updating. The site as it stands should state that viewers should check with local venue for accurate uptodate info, I'm sure it used to!

Maybe we should offer to write it for them ;).

Gus
7th-December-2004, 11:39 AM
There's no need for a single Ceroc employee to be a bottleneck. You could just let franchisees update their own details, via a web form. Funnily enough ... thats the facility for Franchisees on the Blitz website, and SOME even use it :sick: Having said that the rest of the site is cr*p so I dont know who actualy visits it ... for displaying the status of events, whether it be to display my events or to check for events I'm going to, I would always use UK-Jive first.

Dreadful Scathe
7th-December-2004, 12:01 PM
http://www.blitzjive.com/ seems ok, its not too bad to look at and its easy to navigate which is far more important anyway. http://www.uk-jive.co.uk/ has a good balance of looking good and still being easy to navigate with a LOT more information available.

Yliander
7th-December-2004, 12:02 PM
have to agree that what is the point of a website if the information isn't current and accurate.

i do the website maintence for the company that I am associated with. It's not that difficult or time consuming - I check it once a week - wednesday nights for those that care - generally only takes about an hour at most - if there is a major update ie new calender for 2005 takes a little longer.

Occasionally there are updates required outside of the standard update time - but they generally only take a couple of minutes to do.

If you don't want to be bothered with weekly or more often maintence of a site then make it a static site - ie basic information - phone number regular venues, maps to venue, costs, format of night, general information that doesn't change very often.

If you are going to use your site to provide information about events - then make sure that it is updated THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN A CHRONICALLY OUT OF DATE WEBSITE

there are a couple of websites in Australia that are terrible - and if i didn't have friends in that city to keep me upto date - I would end up at the wrong venue, wrong time, wrong day trying to go to a class while on holiday :mad:

uk-jive
7th-December-2004, 03:25 PM
Some time ago, I offered the UK-Jive data-feed service to Ceroc as I didn't see the point of adding an extra administrative burden on the franchisees when the technology is already in place. They didn't take me up on the offer.

It does surprise me how few organisations use the datafeed. (partly I guess through my lack of time to market it).

I've just been to one organisations site, who're still listing events for 2003! :eek:

At the time I developed the datafeed service, I was working for a large financial institution, who were using a very similar service from a 3rd party data supplier. The technology used was identical to that used on UK-Jive... The only difference is / was mine's free & this other one cost 5 grand a year!

The datafeed is sooooo easy to use - See below... you'll always see details of Franck's next event. :waycool:


<SCRIPT language="JavaScript" src="http://www.uk-jive.co.uk/feed-nextevent.asp?OrgID=83"></SCRIPT>

Dreadful Scathe
7th-December-2004, 04:45 PM
Some time ago, I offered the UK-Jive data-feed service to Ceroc as I didn't see the point of adding an extra administrative burden on the franchisees when the technology is already in place. They didn't take me up on the offer.

It does surprise me how few organisations use the datafeed. (partly I guess through my lack of time to market it).
Your service is excellent of course but i would think that any problems Ceroc (or any other dance companies) would have with the service is their perception of it. Do you think they would more readily agree if presented with a more professional Ceroc badged 'package'. I'm not saying it isnt professional just now, but as a business decision it must be seen to be a good solid marketing opportunity rather than 'joining an amateur service'. Sometimes a physical cost is all a business needs for them to view an opportunity as something worthwhile, thats why open source software was regarded with suspicion for years. I hope you see what Im getting at. The uk-jive service looks very polished to me but how to get Ceroc to realise this and use it ? As users we can complain to them, but will they listen. Franck being an exception of course - he knows a good thing when he sees it :)

Ignore me if im waffling :)

uk-jive
7th-December-2004, 05:25 PM
Do you think they would more readily agree if presented with a more professional Ceroc badged 'package'. I'm not saying it isnt professional just now, but as a business decision it must be seen to be a good solid marketing opportunity rather than 'joining an amateur service'. Sometimes a physical cost is all a business needs for them to view an opportunity as something worthwhile, thats why open source software was regarded with suspicion for years. I hope you see what Im getting at. The uk-jive service looks very polished to me but how to get Ceroc to realise this and use it ?

Yes, I think you're probably right... Apart from my lack of time to market the service, I also have the issue of 'selling' it to two very different audiences.

The beauty of the datafeed is that it can be badged & branded to fit-in with any style of site.

A few examples of sites who I know are using it:

LeRoc Federation (http://www.leroc.org.uk/)
Clifton LeRoc (http://www.cliftonleroc.co.uk/)
Jive Magic (http://www.jivemagic.co.uk/freestyle-dance-events.asp)
LeRoc2000 (http://leroc.net/leroc2000/)
Ginger Jive (http://www.gingerjive.co.uk/events.asp)

Once UK-Jive starts offering online ticket sales... Yes, it is coming! I hope there will be an increased take-up on the datafeed.