Who has the hardest job?

[Cornish Pixie]

Who do you think has the hardest job in MJ?

My thinking behind it is this. Beginner men have it easier they he can be shown four moves and dance away. The woman has to learn to follow and can only follow a large no. of moves from experience. Yes the man has to learn to lead the four moveswel but it doesn't take as long to master four moves as it takes a woman to follow anything.

What im saying is a man can dance with any woman of his choosing on the first night. A woman could do this but it will be more daunting for them because they don't know what moves will be pulled out.

It gets harder for the men when you get to intermediate stage and have to remember a large quantity of moves. Women only have to know how to follow.

Another point is although men will worry about dancing giving an experienced dancer enough variety. Women have to worry about dodgy drops being pulled on them such as the scissor drop!

Whats everyones opinions?

Flame away!

[Bigger Andy]

I think that the controlling ladies have the toughest job as, first of all, they have to forget trying to control everything and everyone ! :devil:

Only then can they start trying to learn how to follow !

The ladies that don't try to control all around them have the easiest job as, they are better able to follow and, if they can recognise the signals, they can dance with anyone. :flower:

[DavidB]

As individual skills, I don't think there is any difference between leading & following. Both are fairly simple in principle, but we complicate them in practice.

Despite this, beginner men have a harder job than the ladies. They have to lead the move AND think of another one to do afterwards. A beginner lady just has to follow.

But once the man is happier with his leading, he has by far the easier job. He will just do his normal moves, in his own style, with his own way of leading. He doesn't have to moves he doesn't like, and can try any new moves whenever he wants. He can do his musical interpretation and improvisation wherever he wants. He doesn't even have as much physically to do.

The lady on the other hand has a different set of moves, different styles & different leads for just about every dance. She has little choice on what moves to do. She has to react to the man whenever he decides there is a break, or completely ignore the music if the man doesn't want to hit it. She is usually doing far more movement, spins, styling etc. She is frequently used as a battering ram or a crash mat. And the "moving backwards and in high heels" argument still applies - just as long as it is not Andy McGregor leading...

David

[Graham]

As a taxi dancer I am regularly helping both men and women beginners, and I would say that without a shadow of a doubt the average woman learns to dance to at least a basic level considerably faster than the average man. Although you are correct in saying that following is not an easy skill to learn, the key point is that a good lead will compensate for a poor follow. I would say that around 50% of women can dance comfortably and enjoyably to a range of moves with a decent lead on their first night. The majority of men, on the other hand, struggle to string together the routine from the class once through in time to the music.

[Rachel]

As individual skills, I don't think there is any difference between leading & following. Both are fairly simple in principle, but we complicate them in practice. ... Simple???! I've spent the last 7 years trying to learn how to follow!
R. x

[Trousers]

Simple???! I've spent the last 7 years trying to learn how to follow!
R. x

HMMMMMmmmmmmm
Fiesty huh?

[Rachel]

Who me???? No ... - I'm just crap at switching off my brain from how I'm picturing the music and engaging into 'follow mode' where I'm trying to figure out how my partner is reading the tune.
R. x

[Trousers]

You follow and Nicely!

7 years well spent in my book
I hope i really do know who you are...............

[Graham]

You follow and Nicely!
You're wasting your time - she's never believed it any of the other times we've told her! :rolleyes:

[DavidB]

Simple???! I've spent the last 7 years trying to learn how to follow!Don't worry. I've spent 18 years learning how to lead. And in a private lesson last year, the teacher said "now you have some idea of the basics..."

[Rachel]

You're wasting your time - she's never believed it any of the other times we've told her! :rolleyes: Honestly, it's not modesty - what I meant was there's sooo much to learn and concentrate on with partner-dancing - I'll still be learning after 50 years!

The longer point, which I couldn't be bothered to write earlier was that's it's so hard trying to get that balance between switching off your brain to all your mental images of the way the dance should be performed, when you hear a certain piece of music, in order to completely, indisputably follow your partner. And trying to include some of your interpretative/styling bits while still managing to follow and not sabotage your partner's musicality.

Pace of the dance, too - I often find that I want to dance at a very different pace from my partner. I'm usually wanting to follow a much slower rhythm than is being lead, but sometimes I'm wanting to go faster than them, too.

In some ways, I find it so much easier to follow more correctly when it's dull thump thump music that means absolutely nothing to me. That way, I have no mental images which I need to quash in order to concentrate on my partner's movements. Does that make any sense - not sure if it does now?

All the same, I think the followers have a faaar easier job than the leaders! My hat's off to anyone who can do it!
R.

[Rachel]

Don't worry. I've spent 18 years learning how to lead. And in a private lesson last year, the teacher said "now you have some idea of the basics..." :rofl: Christ, where on earth would your teacher start with the rest of us mere mortals!!

[philsmove]

Who do you think has the hardest job in MJ?

Whats everyones opinions?

Flame away!

simple the answer is

FRANK :clap: :worthy: :clap:

Goodness knows how he managed to keep us lot in order :rofl:

[baldrick]

Whenever I'm asked by nonMJer (man) about learning, I try to encourage the belief that anyone can learn. But I also state that its going to be 6 weeks work to get comfortable with leading. Not good, not all beginners moves 'wired', just comfortable. It takes a while to get over the "oh my, whats next" as a leader. Don't know if follows ever get over that. :grin:
Its someting I have found though many activities, after 6 weeks the first 'click' moment has usualy happened, and the beginner has moved on the first of many lessons.

[Magic Hans]

Who do you think has the hardest job in MJ?
...

No simple answer, as far as I can see. And, I believe, depends on personality types. A more extrovert, instigative personality will, generally pick up and be more comfortable with leading. A more introspective, reponsive personality will prefer and be learn following easier.

Yes, Graham, women do tend to pick up Mj quicker than blokes. This is, perhaps, because women are far happier dancing, and more in touch with their bodies, than blokes. Consider the disco dance floor!

As a more responsive (rather than instigative) personality, it took me about 5 years to really get confident in leading which still (imo) gets little but lip service if taught at all(except I hear they do role reversal workshops in Scotland sometimes!! :clap: ). Although that was in Salsa, and I wasn't particularly regular.

And just as I can (sometimes) compensate for an unexpected follow, some follows have certainly dealt very well with some of my (mis)leads!

I believe Amir mentioned something of the difficulties of following:
Follows and anticipation (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=42470#post42470)

Confucius say "All things are difficult until they are easy." Even if he didn't, they are fairly smart words (imo). Certainly I have a history of inadvertently adding complication to that difficulty. I now try to simplify, simplify, simplify. Probably something Zen in there somewhere!

Ian

[Trish]

No simple answer, as far as I can see. And, I believe, depends on personality types. A more extrovert, instigative personality will, generally pick up and be more comfortable with leading. A more introspective, reponsive personality will prefer and be learn following easier.


Erm.. Perhaps that's why I like leading so much?! If I ever come across you Ian (although I'm not sure how I'd know!), then I'm quite happy to lead if you'd like to follow!

Trish

[DavidY]

If I ever come across you Ian (although I'm not sure how I'd know!)..You're both in Ceroc Central - which freestyles are you going to in the near future...?

[Andreas]

I have danced both, leader and follower. Admittedly, I am a better follower when there is some footwork involved, i.e. ballroom, latin and Salsa. However, I occasionally loved to just follow a good lead because I could cruise. When leading (which I usually do) there is so much more to think about.

When ladies complain to me about musical weaknesses of some guys I just keep reminding them that they have to 'listen' to the music and the leads of the guy to do a move. A guy has to listen to the music, think of moves and tame the lady he dances with. It is a lot more complex. Sure, a lday is hugely challenged if the guy can't lead but so is a guy when the lady just does not follow.

This is my opinion but not only mine. A lot of girls that I danced with and that challenged themselves to lead a few moves pointed out exactly the same.

:cheers:

[Tiggerbabe]

A guy has to /snip/....tame the lady he dances with.
Interesting choice of words........... :whistle: :whistle: do you dance with lots of "wild" ladies?

[Dazzle]

Simple???! I've spent the last 7 years trying to learn how to follow!
R. x

Guess you are about due for the itch then? :flower:

You can practice following with me anytime Rachel, problem is we are limited to the times we meet. :tears:

[Andreas]

Interesting choice of words........... :whistle: :whistle: do you dance with lots of "wild" ladies?

Of course :yum: :drool:

[MartinHarper]

It seems to me that, in MJ, a man has far more options to compensate for bad following, compared to a woman trying to compensate for bad leading. My feeling is that following is just as difficult as leading, but lack of following ability is not as much of a show-stopper as lack of leading ability.

It does vary from place to place. Some teaching methods make it relatively easier for the guy, some make it relatively easier for the woman.

[skippy]

I think that the controlling ladies have the toughest job as, first of all, they have to forget trying to control everything and everyone ! :devil:
Touchy!! :whistle: Not all women are naturally controlling, some do follow like lost lambs! :rofl:
Think it's about even stevens some men like to have contol and some don't, while some women have danced for so long without a man that it's hard for them to suddenly have a male partner!! :clap: :hug:

[Bigger Andy]

[/font]
Touchy!! :whistle: Not all women are naturally controlling, some do follow like lost lambs! :rofl:



Not touchy !

Note the :devil:

[Chef]

Don't worry. I've spent 18 years learning how to lead. And in a private lesson last year, the teacher said "now you have some idea of the basics..."

I just have to know which teacher YOU would pay good money to go to and would have such ability that could say that to you.

I am so depressed. Each year I start my dancing year with the determined feeling that I will get the hang of it this year. I knew from the start it may be a long journey and the journey was part of the fun but I had hoped I would make some progress before I got so old I could not walk.

When my partner came over to me once and said "I have just danced with a man that was a fantastic lead" then grabbed my hand and pulled me towards you, depositing me at your feet with the words "please David teach him to lead" I was deeply in awe.

Now I find that even you have only "now got some idea of the basics".

Deep Sigh. I feel like pond scum.

[DavidB]

I just have to know which teacher YOU would pay good money to go toMy favourite teachers are Kyle Redd, Robert Cordoba, Angel Figueroa, Arte Philips, Vernon Kemp, Mario Robau, Ieuan Parry, Bo Loft Jensen and Perri Adair.

They teach WCS, hustle, Ballroom, Latin, Cabaret and acrobtics.

I have only ever picked up a fraction of what they know.

David

[skippy]

I think it comes down to confidence with men and with regards to women we do try to relax and I would be the first to say it is hard if the man doesn't work you well it is hard not to take over!!!!!

[Rhythm King]

snip, acrobtics.

snip
David

Ah, the acrobatic art of leaping across the bar to get your glass under the optics, for another drink. Great activity, David :cheers: