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View Full Version : Naming & Shaming OR Praising Venues



Gus
30th-November-2004, 04:18 PM
Following on from a subthread occuring in Andy McG's 'smoking at venues' thread
....
{ODA Mode ON}
Whether a venue allows smoking or not is a fairly clear cut thing ... they either do or dont. However, there is a line of thought that says this is a 'naming & shaming' activity that can actively disuade punters from attendinh. To make things fair, are there other criteria that could be posted re a venue to allow punters to make an 'informed' choice. The ones that imedeatly spring to mind are cr*p music, cr*p teachers, overcrowded dance floor, unfriendly crew or punters, no policy of drops/aerials etc. etc. ... but can anyone come up with an objective measure of these?

This debate does have some worth as there are some venues which really are ripping off punters (IMHO) and SHOULD be shamed. However its very subjective. I know a couple of venues that have been lauded on this forum yet the regulars and their (remining) crew consider the venue to be a shambles. So .... is objective fedback about venues a non-starter?
{ODA Mode OFF}

DavidB
30th-November-2004, 05:53 PM
So .... is objective fedback about venues a non-starter?I hope objective feedback always has a place on this forum. I think it is one of its strengths.

My own view on Naming & Shaming is linked to money. Anything that takes money - eg a venue, and event or an organisation - is fair game.

Anyone that takes money - eg an organiser, a teacher or performer - should also be prepared for criticism as well as praise. However as it is more individual in nature, you should be nice about it!

Anyone that gets money from a competition should not be personally criticised except in relation to their competitors or previous performances. (eg "xxxx didn't dance as well as I'd seen before"). It also depends on the level of the competition - a couple in the Open should expect more comments than someone in the Intermediate.

It is fair to talk about the judges though... :what:

Anyone that pays to dance should never be named on a public forum in relation to anything even remotely critical. The discussion should be about the action, not the person.

Will can always be named and shamed.

David

Magic Hans
30th-November-2004, 06:10 PM
Venue with good points and bad points, but definitely popular!!

Good
Friendly
More than its fair share of lovely dancers (M & F)
Large with good wooden floor (sprung, maybe!) ex-social club for Raleigh.
Music - ok. Good for beginners, nice and simple. Perhaps not so much for someone looking for a challenge.
Exit out onto the fire escape for a good blast of cold air.
I can't remember anyone smoking there, so effectively non-smoking. Although I believe there is a small smoking area most are considerate enough to use the fire escape balcony.

Bad
Can get a little too crowded
Heating never seems to go off
No seperate bar area
Corridors used for beginners revision lesson - not ideal, but do-able.
Floor not kept in tip-top condition - gets sticky.
Not the cheapest in the world or the area £7 last time I looked!

DavidY
30th-November-2004, 07:23 PM
Re: Nottingham : Marcus Garvey, Thursday
Last time I went to Marcus Garvey it was on Monday :wink:

ChrisA
30th-November-2004, 07:44 PM
Anyone that pays to dance should never be named on a public forum in relation to anything even remotely critical [....]

Will can always be named and shamed.

Does he get in free everywhere then??? :confused:

I mean, that is, like, soooooo unfair.... :rolleyes:

(he should certainly be named and shamed for that T-shirt he was wearing on Saturday - you could tell Kate wasn't around)

Darth

Magic Hans
30th-November-2004, 08:18 PM
Last time I went to Marcus Garvey it was on Monday :wink:

Thanks ... well spotted!!!! Getting mixed up between Marcus Garvey and West Bridgford!

Gus
1st-December-2004, 12:57 AM
I hope objective feedback always has a place on this forum. I think it is one of its strengths. [SNIP]

Anyone that takes money - eg an organiser, a teacher or performer - should also be prepared for criticism as well as praise. However as it is more individual in nature, you should be nice about it!
Quite agree sir. I woudl like to see more of the negatives discussed to even up all the luvvie type comments that tend to get posted ... BUT, there is no reason for negative feedback to be hurtfull ... unless of course it is regarding Will, his taste in attire and his dismall perfomrance on his X-box :wink:

MartinHarper
1st-December-2004, 01:24 AM
Some folks on this forum have a tendency to read negative comments and make much more of them than they really deserve. For example:


Floor not kept in tip-top condition - gets sticky.

Sticky floors are is a real danger when spinning! All women who want to be able to walk in a year's time should boycott Nottingham!

As a result of this perceived attitude, whether it's real or imaginary, I'm reluctant to "name and shame" on the forum, whether it be venues, people, whatever. Does anyone else feel the same way? Or am I just imagining it?

Andy McGregor
1st-December-2004, 03:15 AM
Does anyone else feel the same way? Or am I just imagining it?

You're just imagining it ...

In reality you have no idea how other people feel. Even if they say they feel the same way as you do.

On the subject of naming and shaming, I agree 100% with DavidB :worthy:

Trousers
1st-December-2004, 09:53 AM
You're just imagining it ...



Thanks Andy that was exactly what I was trying to say.

Franck
1st-December-2004, 11:29 AM
I hope objective feedback always has a place on this forum. I think it is one of its strengths.

My own view on Naming & Shaming is linked to money. Anything that takes money - eg a venue, and event or an organisation - is fair game.

Anyone that takes money - eg an organiser, a teacher or performer - should also be prepared for criticism as well as praise. However as it is more individual in nature, you should be nice about it!I agree with the above, and indeed would always welcome objective feedback (whether positive or not) on this Forum.
I would however object to 'naming & shaming'. In my view, it's irrelevant whether you're naming an individual or a venue etc... the name & shame game is too open to abuse and concerted attacks / vendettas from individuals. Pretty much anyone can post something negative about a venue or a person, and while in theory, venues or other dancers would be able to reply, in practise, few would because those discussions quickly degenerate into public slanging matches.
As a result, an allegation, whether true or false but definitely biased is allowed to stand and damages the goodwill of a person / organisation. This cannot be a good thing for any of us, and in the long run will hurt the dancing scene.

Where do we go from here then?
If you read both paragraphs above, I appear to contradict myself:
I welcome feedback.
I don't want name & shame.

The difference for me is around the word 'objective'. Some things can easily be measured:

Floor overcrowded / too many tickets sold.
Smoking allowed.
No car parking available
Dance floor sticky / slippery.
etc...

Other things are only subjective and depend on each individual:

Music was poor
Teacher is a muppet
Staff was rude
Dancers were of a high/low standard

Subjective comments can be fine if expressed carefully, ie 'I didn't enjoy the music much as I prefer a bluesier style' but unfortunately, many people post with agendas, whether they are trying to promote a competing night or have a grudge against an organizer / teacher because they were asked to stop teaching drops to beginners :sad:
Most of the regular readers of the Forum will know the different perspectives / agendas of other regular posters, but casual readers might take at face value a comment and decide (perhaps wrongly in their case) to avoid a venue as a result.

The reason I agree with DavidB is that as an organizer, we should be able to take criticism and learn from it. The Forum is a great way to give feedback to organisers and teachers, however, in some instances, a PM or email is the best way forward...

Gus
1st-December-2004, 12:36 PM
Subjective comments can be fine if expressed carefully, ie 'I didn't enjoy the music much as I prefer a bluesier style' but unfortunately, many people post with agendas, whether they are trying to promote a competing night or have a grudge against an organizer / teacher because they were asked to stop teaching drops to beginners :sad:And that is the whole crux of the problem :sad:

bigdjiver
1st-December-2004, 12:41 PM
We have already had one post on this thread that gave the wrong venue name, and many of the factors that affect an evening apply only to that evening. Even factors such as smoking allowed can be virtually meaningless if only one or two smoke, and they usually go outside. I have been in splendid ballrooms that were soulless, and "joints" that pulsated. I have heard complaints about small car parks when there was a massive, almost empty one, around the back that the complainer did not know about. I, too, advocate great care in naming and shaming.
The responsible media has a policy of putting the complaints to the organisation concerned, and publishing their response at the same time.

Gus
1st-December-2004, 12:59 PM
The responsible media has a policy of putting the complaints to the organisation concerned, and publishing their response at the same time.Now THAT is an excellent point. Well made.

Daisy Chain
1st-December-2004, 01:13 PM
Marcus Garvey

I've been to Marcus Garvey (on a Monday :wink: ) a few times and I was blown away by the wonderful men and the music. Had a great time and I didn't have to do all the asking (which was nice) and on my very first visit, I had a proposal of marriage :really:

The venue is a little grim (I've been spoilt by Northwich Memorial Hall, Nantwich Civic Hall and The Bowden Rooms) but once the lights go down you can forget the decor. The only worry that I had, was whether the hire car was still going to be in the car park at the end of the evening after one of the locals warned me about the local criminal fraternity.

But Marcus Garvey gets my vote for a great Monday night out. I specifically organise the days of my business trips for that area to be on a Monday :grin:

Not so sure about West Bridgford. Only went once and I was turned down by a hotshot :tears: Less confident about going back there all on my todd.

Daisy

(A Travelling Flower)

jivecat
1st-December-2004, 02:10 PM
Venue with good points and bad points, but definitely popular!!

Good
Friendly
More than its fair share of lovely dancers (M & F)
Large with good wooden floor (sprung, maybe!) ex-social club for Raleigh.
Music - ok. Good for beginners, nice and simple. Perhaps not so much for someone looking for a challenge.
Exit out onto the fire escape for a good blast of cold air.
I can't remember anyone smoking there, so effectively non-smoking. Although I believe there is a small smoking area most are considerate enough to use the fire escape balcony.

:yeah: A big crowd of friendly dancers, and a venue with lots of atmosphere IMO, though some people find it a bit run-down. I've found the music can be disappointing, not nearly enough swing and blues.


Bad
Can get a little too crowded
Heating never seems to go off
No seperate bar area
Corridors used for beginners revision lesson - not ideal, but do-able.
Floor not kept in tip-top condition - gets sticky.

It also has a big booth thing which juts right out into the dance floor about halfway along, using up valuable dance space.


Not the cheapest in the world or the area £7 last time I looked!

Yes, I was rather surprised, on visiting other parts of the country, to find that the maximum charge is £6, sometimes £5, for an evening of MJ. I wonder if anyone's told Phil Roberts? :innocent:
A good reason to support some of the other MJ operators starting up in the Central region -undermine the Ceroc Central monopoly.

Gus
1st-December-2004, 02:31 PM
A good reason to support some of the other MJ operators starting up in the Central region -undermine the Ceroc Central monopoly.Many have tried ... all have failed (the Force is strong with this one)... so far :wink:

bigdjiver
1st-December-2004, 04:28 PM
... I was rather surprised, on visiting other parts of the country, to find that the maximum charge is £6, sometimes £5, for an evening of MJ. I wonder if anyone's told Phil Roberts? :innocent:
A good reason to support some of the other MJ operators starting up in the Central region -undermine the Ceroc Central monopoly. I tried to persuade Phil that the price rise would hurt the rate of growth of his business, but could not argue that it would not increase profits. There is no monopoly, there are two other MJ nights in Bedford itself at £5 and £4, and two others within 15 miles where they charge £5. Phil's nights continue to thrive. There is bags of room for other organisations, but running an MJ evening needs considerable aptitude and expertise. It is hard to make much money, and easy to lose a lot.

Magic Hans
11th-December-2004, 10:02 PM
...
I would however object to 'naming & shaming'. In my view, it's irrelevant whether you're naming an individual or a venue etc... the name & shame game is too open to abuse and concerted attacks / vendettas from individuals. Pretty much anyone can post something negative about a venue or a person, and while in theory, venues or other dancers would be able to reply, in practise, few would because those discussions quickly degenerate into public slanging matches.
With respect I disagree, on two counts.

Firstly, that there is a distinct difference between criticising (shaming) an individual, who may well not be on the forum and so not have a response mechanism to defend themselves, and a venue which might well have at least one or two representatives on the forum (dancers/DJs who have visited) who have a subjective [see 2 paras below] opinion.

Secondly, I fully agree that negatives about a venue might well develop into slanging matches, however, how does that differ from any other disagreement? At least a difference of opinion about a venue is less likely to be taken personally (I did say less likely ... those directly involved might be inclined]


As a result, an allegation, whether true or false but definitely biased is allowed to stand and damages the goodwill of a person / organisation. This cannot be a good thing for any of us, and in the long run will hurt the dancing scene.
...

And with a allegation, backed up by other persons points of view/experiences, quite right! Clearly the more in agreement from their perspective/experience, the less subjective. This, as far a I see, helps the dance scene, and potentially informs new-comers about venues that might not be representative.

However, a single allegation backed up by no-one, and challenged by no-one would seem unsubstantiated, and worthy of a fuller examination/testing.

Personally I see it as my duty to dance and dancers to report on how good (and bad) other venues are in my perspective, with reasons.


...
The difference for me is around the word 'objective'. Some things can easily be measured:
...

Totally agree. However, how about those qualatitive aspects that can't been measured? 15 people don't like the teacher (or policies) at a particular venue .... and 1 disagrees? Isn't getting to be fairly objective? [obviously 100 - 0 is more objective]

I'm fully in agreement that lots of negative words about people, things or places simply creates a nasty, negative cycle of moans, arguments and ill-will from everyone, which I would hate to see happen.

However, as you so rightly point out. How else can venues (and dancers) get feedback from the punters that they serve, and so learn, develop and evolve?

Personally I'd love to see all-round reviews from venues everywhere, and, thus equipped make my decisions as to where to go to dance. Far better that, than a blank wall of emptiness.

With Respect ... Ian

PS .... see you at Beach Ballroom in Feb!]

bobgadjet
12th-December-2004, 11:54 PM
The responsible media has a policy of putting the complaints to the organisation concerned, and publishing their response at the same time.

Fully agree with this one.

Unfortunately it is much more the case that a bad, or several bad, points about a venue/organisation will be put much before a praise.

How many of you would go out of a venue, possibly saying "what a cr*p night that was"?
Would the same people say about the same venue on another night "That was a pretty good night"?

It's very easy to critisize anybody, or any venue, but its OH SO difficult for the organiser to do anything about it if they don't know what their punters are REALLY thinking.

How about ALL the venues doing a poll of their punters, maybe on a regular basis?

They could ask for a simple 0 - 5 grading for a number of points like
Public transport
parking
venue decor
dance floor
teacher
DJ
events
promotions
etc......

They would know from the feedback what they should/should not do, and if they don't act on it, presumably somebody would be in the wings waiting to take over the venue when they fail ! !

I don't think it should be for the likes of this forum to provide the making or breaking of the venue/event, as it really could.

IMO if there is a gripe, or praise the person feeling such that they should comment, should do so direct to the perosn responsible........ if they really have the guts to do it.

There are some who would only make a comment, good or otherwise, if they know they would not be known as the one making the comment.

Gus
13th-December-2004, 12:45 AM
IMO if there is a gripe, or praise the person feeling such that they should comment, should do so direct to the perosn responsible........ if they really have the guts to do it.Ok ...case in point. Was recently at a freetsyle where the DJ had a complete nightmare. Was DJing from a laptop which was skipping and the tracks hadnt been properly edited so some of the endings were a bit abrupt. The sound quality was all over the place, for the most part too loud and it sounded like the DJ had managed to blow his tweeters as distortion was noticable. He has two sets of speakers but the dear chap managed to tuun one set off while he was fumbling around with them. :tears: Round me I heard numerous people slagging off this performance (and some also were not impressed with the music) ... BUT, did they complain as they left? .... NOT A CHANCE. The only two comments I heard as I was loitering in the reception area (long story) were those in abject praise of the nights music :eek: :eek: :confused:

Sorry ... but what the heck is the orgnaisers left to do. They know as well as I how cr*p the music was but if the only feedback they get is positive, they will end up having to book the guy again.

The blame for poor DJs does NOT rest with the organisers ... it rests with the voiceless masses who are too apathetic to open their mouths and complain!!!!
{Rant Just beginning}

jivecat
13th-December-2004, 11:25 AM
Sorry ... but what the heck is the orgnaisers left to do. They know as well as I how cr*p the music was but if the only feedback they get is positive, they will end up having to book the guy again.

Surely not?? If the organisers know that the DJ didn't do a good job surely they don't have to book him/her again? Aren't there lots of other DJs arouind to offer the work to?



The blame for poor DJs does NOT rest with the organisers ... it rests with the voiceless masses who are too apathetic to open their mouths and complain!!!!
{Rant Just beginning}

Well, I am sometimes moved to complain - but I do my complaining (in the form of a gentle & polite request, like what I was advised to do on this very forum) directly to the DJ. So, from now on, I'd better rubbish the hapless DJ thoroughly to his employers as I leave.
I don't think I'd really notice technical faults as long as s/he played plenty of the kind of music I like. Blues & swing.

Gus
13th-December-2004, 11:34 AM
Surely not?? If the organisers know that the DJ didn't do a good job surely they don't have to book him/her again? Aren't there lots of other DJs arouind to offer the work to?You can 'know' that a DJ or teacher isn't doing a good job ... but you have to go by what the punters say .... and if there are no complaints what grounds have you to sack the DJ?

jivecat
13th-December-2004, 11:48 AM
I don't think it should be for the likes of this forum to provide the making or breaking of the venue/event, as it really could.



Do you really think the forum is that powerful? :confused:

In the Midlands an event might be packed with people but only a handful would be active forumites. And those forumites would probably be people who are spending most of their salary each month on obsessive pursuit of dancing fun, so are hardly a threat to the well-being of MJ organisers! But maybe it's different in Scotland or the SE.

Having thought about it, the characteristics of the venue are probably the least important factor in whether I have a good night out or not. Convenience to the place where I live is probably more important than any other factor, even a smoky dance floor. But it might be different if there was a lot of choice of places to go.

I agree with previously made points about complaining directly to the people responsible so that they can take action or defend themselves. It's fairly pointless (though enjoyable) moaning about things on the forum as I can't believe it's that powerful. Although I do think that word-of-mouth is important in contributing to the success/failure of venues I think the forum has, on balance, a fairly small part in that.

jivecat
13th-December-2004, 12:00 PM
You can 'know' that a DJ or teacher isn't doing a good job ... but you have to go by what the punters say .... and if there are no complaints what grounds have you to sack the DJ?

Still puzzled, Gus. He who pays the piper calls the tune, surely. Or would you have to produce evidence at an unfair dismissal tribunal?
Punter X: He never played the one about the chickens.
Punter Y: No, and at least 10 thumpthumpthumps in a row.
Punter Z: And that crap version of Fire instead of Bruce Springsteen.

Certainly sackable offences in my book.

bobgadjet
13th-December-2004, 01:32 PM
I agree with previously made points about complaining directly to the people responsible so that they can take action or defend themselves. It's fairly pointless (though enjoyable) moaning about things on the forum as I can't believe it's that powerful. Although I do think that word-of-mouth is important in contributing to the success/failure of venues I think the forum has, on balance, a fairly small part in that.

There you go...............
Word of mouth is what normally does it.....

A formalite says to a friend at a, say, bad venue (in his/hers opinion) that they will not go back as it's better (in their opinion) at the other venue....etc...etc
That friend then says to somoebody at the bar.....I'm not coming back as so and so says its better at the other venue, and he/she should know as they dance every night and they also say so on the internet....and on it goes like a pack of dominoes.

So you see any forum, not only this one, can have a bigger effect than you might initially think

ALSO

Above most people have said about "complaining" about a venue.

WHAT ABOUT THE PRAISE?
especially where it's due.

Come on guys, there are employees out there giving their all so that YOU have a great night out, and if you ARE dancing most nights of the week, give those teachers/DJ's etc praise for what they do, as you have more to compare with.

Yes I know they get paid to do their work, but how do THEY know they are doing what YOU want, if you dont tell them, one way or another.

Ashtons (when I remember to put it out) has a comments book, and it works BOTH ways. we get the good and the bad from a lot of punters, and DO take note. some things take a little longer than we would like to get into effect, but you don't change the world overnight.

We have about equal comments on good and bad, and the fact that the book is there has made a marked good difference in the whole venue.
Thanks to all who have made their comments.

Zebra Woman
13th-December-2004, 01:51 PM
Above most people have said about "complaining" about a venue.

WHAT ABOUT THE PRAISE?
especially where it's due.

I agree with this and try to never leave a venue without personally thanking the DJ if I've really enjoyed the music.



Ashtons (when I remember to put it out) has a comments book, and it works BOTH ways. we get the good and the bad from a lot of punters, and DO take note. some things take a little longer than we would like to get into effect, but you don't change the world overnight.

We have about equal comments on good and bad, and the fact that the book is there has made a marked good difference in the whole venue.
Thanks to all who have made their comments.

I very much like this idea, and wish more venues would adopt it. I find it really hard to give negative feedback to a DJ, I feel like I'm just one person out of 200. But I am brave enough to write in a book and put my name to it. I also like to browse and see what other people think, we are all so different. :clap:

This summer, for the first time ever, I gave negative feedback to a DJ, face to face assertively. It did not go down well. I can't see myself doing that again, sorry. :(

ZW :flower:

Gus
13th-December-2004, 01:59 PM
This summer, for the first time ever, I gave negative feedback to a DJ, face to face assertively. It did not go down well. I can't see myself doing that again, sorry. :( When you say "assertively" ... do you mean exactly that or aggressively? If it was the former I can only assume from your tone that the DJ didnt take it too well :sad: Can you expand on what happened? I must admit that I've found DJs to be particularly poor at taking negative feedback ... with some very marked exceptions.

djtrev
13th-December-2004, 02:16 PM
Quotes;
If the organisers know that the DJ didn't do a good job surely they don't have to book him/her again? Aren't there lots of other DJs arouind to offer the work to?

So you see any forum, not only this one, can have a bigger effect than you might initially think



I doubt that the criticism and shaming of Jon Brett by forumites recently after a night of WCS at Hipsters had any adverse effects on his job future or the venues ability to attract custom, because of who and what they are.
On the other hand if it was some non descript DJ in Chipping Sodbury.....

Zebra Woman
13th-December-2004, 02:17 PM
When you say "assertively" ... do you mean exactly that or aggressively? If it was the former I can only assume from your tone that the DJ didnt take it too well :sad: Can you expand on what happened? I must admit that I've found DJs to be particularly poor at taking negative feedback ... with some very marked exceptions.

I said 'I've just had the best night's dancing I've ever had at this venue tonight. BUT I would have preferred about a quarter of the music to have been slower and with breaks in'.

I was representing a lot of friends who come a long way and they had badgered me into saying something because I knew him. I have known the DJ as a friend for 6 years and given him a lot of musical leads over that time.

ZW :flower:

Gus
13th-December-2004, 02:23 PM
I said 'I've just had the best night's dancing I've ever had at this venue tonight. BUT I would have preferred about a quarter of the music to have been slower and with breaks in'. That sounded very constructive feedback. I cant see how the DJ could have objected to what you said. He may well have said that he played music that suited the majority of the dancefloor ... but regardless of that I think what you said was a legitmate expression of preference. I've had a lot worse thrown at me :sick:

djtrev
13th-December-2004, 02:27 PM
Quote;
This summer, for the first time ever, I gave negative feedback to a DJ, face to face assertively. It did not go down well. I can't see myself doing that again, sorry.

As a DJ I welcome any comments good or bad.If its negative of course I will be upset and probably try to defend myself,but you can rest assured that it will have been noted and acted on if at all possible.

Quote;
I agree with this and try to never leave a venue without personally thanking the DJ if I've really enjoyed the music.

I wish there were more like you ZW.

Zebra Woman
13th-December-2004, 02:34 PM
He may well have said that he played music that suited the majority of the dancefloor ... but regardless of that I think what you said was a legitmate expression of preference. I've had a lot worse thrown at me :sick:

I will say no more publicly about what he said back. Cos it is not suitable for family reading and was very upsetting.

A month later he apologised, and I accepted it. But I'm afraid my ability to complain has been affected.

Simon r
13th-December-2004, 02:47 PM
Well i would like to give some possitive feed back...
went to ginger jive christmas party at the Liberty ballrooms...
Great host
great music
fun (supplied by Nigel and Nina)
and just the right amount of fantastic dances

well done Ginger Jive....

Right you lot can go back to your negative vibes now... :wink:

Lou
13th-December-2004, 02:52 PM
On the other hand if it was some non descript DJ in Chipping Sodbury.....
You weren't impressed with Ray's set, then? :rofl:

jivecat
13th-December-2004, 03:02 PM
: I must admit that I've found DJs to be particularly poor at taking negative feedback ... with some very marked exceptions.

I only complain/request when my night's dancing enjoyment is beginning to seriously suffer. No-one's been rude to me but I can't say that DJs have been very receptive in general to requests made. I think DJs who also dance in general play the best sets. Djs who don't dance are far more likely to play stuff which is unexciting or downright unsuitable.

Praising a good set is a great idea but doesn't really work as feedback as that DJ is already good- what about the ones that aren't?

djtrev
13th-December-2004, 03:12 PM
Oh dear Lou.
No offence meant Ray.I just put the first name that came into my head;in fact I actually thought it was a ficticious place from a TV programme.
Perhaps I should have put "a DJ named Trev in Norwich"!!!

Lou
13th-December-2004, 03:24 PM
Oh dear Lou.
No offence meant Ray.I just put the first name that came into my head;in fact I actually thought it was a ficticious place from a TV programme.

:rofl: And I'm a figment of your demented imagination! :rofl:

Poor Ray. Tries his hardest at the Red And Black LeRoc Ball on Saturday & someone calls him ficticious & nondescript! :whistle: :rofl:

bobgadjet
13th-December-2004, 03:39 PM
I agree with this and try to never leave a venue without personally thanking the DJ if I've really enjoyed the music.

This summer, for the first time ever, I gave negative feedback to a DJ, face to face assertively. It did not go down well. I can't see myself doing that again, sorry. :(

ZW :flower:

Thank you

PLEEEEZZZEE
Don't be put off by a poor/bad response from mentioning what you didn't like about what was played. (mind you, a smack on the nose often offends ! ! !)

If the DJ takes it on, in any way, YOU are the one who will benefit, as you did from his apology, and others might from the music he played at venues after that.

I'm glad you put your name to your comment, but for me, the comment would be good enuf :Thumbs up:

Hope to see you this friday for your comments then :clap:
and of course another WCS or two, or three, or more?

plankton
14th-December-2004, 04:36 PM
I have a few problems with naming and shaming and they are mostly time related. Any opinion based on one visit is necessarily a snapshot for a variety of reasons it could be a good/bad night.

Like I was having a bad night therefore the venue/dancers/etc were rubbish
Like the music was crap and I had a brilliant time because of the company
Like the floor was fine/slippery/sticky

There are plenty of times when things go wrong on a one off
Dj having off night (they all do at some time or another, no offence to any dj)
floor not cleaned
car park full (and I got a parking ticket)

There are plenty of things that happen time and time again
I haven't been back to Hammersmith for years because of my perception of the terrible sound , but I went multiple times ,enjoyed myself and had good dances every time, my tastes (standards ?) have changed.



Its easy to shame when the venue/dj is not really at fault

I've walked out of Hipsters on one occasion because there was not enough fast Lindy (which I wanted, needed nay craved ) and I just got bored and frustrated. A year previously I had walked out because there was too much fast Lindy (and I had not yet learned to dance to it).

I went to an outside dance in london and it rained ! I ruined a good pair of shoes dancing in the rain and could hardly walk afterwards because of shock from the stone surface (and three or four hours dancin). I wouldn't have missed it , but I seriously couldn't recommend it as a venue.


If one is going to rate venues would we be better off with an averaged star rating that combines the fact with the subjective . it would also allow for corrections /modifications /changes etc.


or perhaps we should just write trip reports ::

On friday 2 June 2004 ...
I went to ....
I parked in ....
the floor was .....
the facilities were ....
It was a class /freestyle /dance
The dJ was good bad I didn't notice
The teachers were N/A ,Rubbish, Briliant , Nigel and Nina
Andy would have approved (non smoking) :whistle:
I dance Mj,Lindy,Blues :grin:
I don't dance Salsa :sick:
my music taste this week is ....
I went in a group /went on my own
I had a ------ time

I would /would not go again because .................

that at least would tell people that its a individual snapshot view.

find 10 in a row that slag a venue and there might be reason to believe a trend is developing.

This could avoid a 'discussion' as the view is personal but it would allow venues to see what people liked/disliked or indeed noticed . It would give a balanced (if not necessarily fair) basis on which to determine in which direction your petrol pounds would be spent.

In a marketing class once I was told that on average people tell seven others about a bad experience and only one or two about a good one. (I won't vouch for the statistics but I know that's probably what I do) :blush:


just a thought or two

Keith

Rhythm King
14th-December-2004, 05:15 PM
:rofl: And I'm a figment of your demented imagination! :rofl:

Poor Ray. Tries his hardest at the Red And Black LeRoc Ball on Saturday & someone calls him ficticious & nondescript! :whistle: :rofl:

I went to the Red and Black LeRoc Ball and and thought the music was good for MJ. I heard some of my current faves, a few oldies and didn't hear The Mavericks :whistle: . There was a bit of Swing, a bit of Latin and didn't miss the WCS vibes cos I didn't know anyone there who could do it, at least not with my inexperienced, beginners WCS lead anyway :blush: . Although, now I come to think of it, a certain person nearly caused a fit of the conniptions by stopping a Touch and Go track mid-way through, to make an announcement, which could've waited til the end of the song :eek: At least the DJ started the track from the beginning afterwards.
Still it was a fun night and, apart from one of my hostesses being injured (ie stabbed) by an inconsiderately placed stilleto, without so much as an apology :angry:, the overall experience (venue, dancing, music, food, welcoming crew) was definitely positive and worthy of praise.

Whitebeard
14th-December-2004, 08:54 PM
You can 'know' that a DJ or teacher isn't doing a good job ... but you have to go by what the punters say .... and if there are no complaints ......
Surely an organiser is giving constant thought to the success (although in this case complacency may reign) or otherwise of their event/s and the various components which can influence the enjoyment of punters and their willingness to become regulars.

Knowing the well known reluctance of Brits (and perhaps Scots) to complain (or to praise) directly at the time, I would have thought an organiser might take the initiative and actively circulate and seek out the personal views of the dancers. That way, the rantings of a possible vocal minority would be put into perspective. Part of managing the enterprise to have a finger on its pulse??

bobgadjet
14th-December-2004, 09:12 PM
Part of managing the enterprise to have a finger on its pulse??

Make it so ! ! !

Lou
15th-December-2004, 01:09 PM
I went to the Red and Black LeRoc Ball and and thought the music was good for MJ. I heard some of my current faves, a few oldies and didn't hear The Mavericks :whistle: . There was a bit of Swing, a bit of Latin and didn't miss the WCS vibes cos I didn't know anyone there who could do it, at least not with my inexperienced, beginners WCS lead anyway :blush: .
I'm sorry - I didn't realise you'd visited! :blush: I would've tried WCS, but I've only ever had 2 lessons!

Dance Demon
15th-December-2004, 01:14 PM
Knowing the well known reluctance of Brits (and perhaps Scots) to complain (or to praise) directly at the time,

Erm....last time I checked, Scotland was still part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland........making them Brits....:nice:

Just thought I'd complain directly :wink:

latinlover
15th-December-2004, 02:39 PM
.

Ashtons (when I remember to put it out) has a comments book, and it works BOTH ways. we get the good and the bad from a lot of punters, and DO take note. some things take a little longer than we would like to get into effect, but you don't change the world overnight.

We have about equal comments on good and bad, and the fact that the book is there has made a marked good difference in the whole venue.
.

This is a good thing Bob. :clap:
What I find interesting is that when I write something ,either positive or negative , there is almost invariably a comment already expressing the opposite opinion!
Which proves that either I am completely out of step with the average Ashton's Punter,(quite likely) or that there is no accounting for taste and you can't please all the people all the time (also very true)

Almost every night I dance someone will say to me they hated the music when I've had a fantastic time, or they'll say what a great night they've had ...and I've had a lousy one!
I would hate to be a DJ with all our finicky, fussy opinions to take account of :cheers:

Like ZW I always make a point of saying thanks to the DJ if I've had a good night and I wouldn't dream of saying if I hadn't enjoyed it. :whistle: sorry bob
this has even resulted in the DJ spontaneously playing known faves of ours before we can even request them :clap:
As Plankton says there are so many factors at play which may affect one's perception of a night

essay over :blush:

Whitebeard
15th-December-2004, 04:36 PM
Erm....last time I checked, Scotland was still part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland........making them Brits....
Sheer carelessness on my part. Trying to be inclusive when there was no need !!

Sheepman
15th-December-2004, 04:45 PM
I gave negative feedback to a DJ, face to face assertively. It did not go down well. I can't see myself doing that again, sorry. If you were unhappy with one of my sets, I would much rather know about it, and I feel it is easier coming from a friend, because you are more likely to be objective about it. OK, you are likely to see dissapointment on my face, because I always want the dancers to go away thinking "what a great night" but I know that there have been a couple of occasions where it just doesn't "feel right." I may be able to feel it at the time, but that doesn't mean to say it is easy to get out of that vein. I also know I can't please everyone, but if you do tell me, I'd have to be having a VERY bad night for me to have a go at you!

Greg

Zebra Woman
15th-December-2004, 05:05 PM
If you were unhappy with one of my sets, I would much rather know about it, and I feel it is easier coming from a friend, because you are more likely to be objective about it. OK, you are likely to see dissapointment on my face, because I always want the dancers to go away thinking "what a great night" but I know that there have been a couple of occasions where it just doesn't "feel right." I may be able to feel it at the time, but that doesn't mean to say it is easy to get out of that vein. I also know I can't please everyone, but if you do tell me, I'd have to be having a VERY bad night for me to have a go at you!

Greg

Thanks for saying that Greg, I promise to say if I'm unhappy.....although it's hard to imagine how that would happen :worthy: .

Last night it was very heartening to see the way JB had responded so positively to feedback, it made the angst worthwhile. Also very reassuring to see that others enjoyed the music too. Thanks for posting guys :clap:

Bobgadget has also shown he can take it like a man. Hopefully it won't be long before my confidence is restored.

ZW :flower: :hug:

Sheepman
15th-December-2004, 06:15 PM
I promise to say if I'm unhappy.....although it's hard to imagine how that would happen :worthy: Thanks for your vote of confidence, but you haven't heard me week in, week out, yet. My theory is that anyone who thinks that they are infallible is someone with a big problem, but now I'm straying into the realms of baggage ...

Greg

Dazzle
15th-December-2004, 07:17 PM
A friend of mine gave negative, but perfectly acceptable, feedback to a DJ at a venue where they crew. The DJ took exception, reported them to the Venue Manager who said they should be more positive on the evening or consider crewing elsewhere!

There seem to be many instances on here where people have plucked up the courage to comment on the DJ's set and been put off from doing so again. If a venue knows the music could be better and don't say anything they are to blame too. Do they really need the punters to back them up so much? Maybe an anonymous comments box is a better idea for such sensitive subjects?

Gus
15th-December-2004, 07:58 PM
A friend of mine gave negative, but perfectly acceptable, feedback to a DJ at a venue where they crew. The DJ took exception, reported them to the Venue Manager who said they should be more positive on the evening or consider crewing elsewhere!Must admit that DJs are a protected species up here (rather like goalkeepers in the Premiership) :sad: "They can do no wrong" ... even when they play a cr*p set (IMHO).

Zebra Woman
15th-December-2004, 08:08 PM
Thanks for your vote of confidence, but you haven't heard me week in, week out, yet. My theory is that anyone who thinks that they are infallible is someone with a big problem, but now I'm straying into the realms of baggage ...

Greg
If only I had the chace to hear you week in week out :sick: :tears:

Agree that an open mind to what the punters think is very important.

Yes absolutely even the best DJ's have off nights, I work on the basis of a big thank you on the night when I have loved it and I just leave if I don't .

One of my best local nights was years ago when the DJ himself felt he was having and off night, but I didn't :confused: Obviously we have different tastes!! :eek:

ZW :flower:

bigdjiver
15th-December-2004, 10:02 PM
... One of my best local nights was years ago when the DJ himself felt he was having and off night, but I didn't :confused: Obviously we have different tastes!! :eek: ...
You are a superb dancer, and can dance to tracks beyond the ability of the average MJ'er. I certainly have the "not good enough" feeling, which comes totally from me. Some of the tracks you love just are not right for the average clientele.

Most DJ's are paid to play to the floor, and judge themselves on the number of happy dancers that they see out there.

djtrev
16th-December-2004, 12:22 AM
I have just come in from an evening at Ceroc Norwich(John Innes Center) and am pleased to say that it is a NON SMOKING venue.
I had quite a pleasant time,the music was good,seperate bar area;which I dont like;the floor was fine but it was very crowded.Now the gripe!
I didnt like the format of the lesson-4 beginner moves and 2 intermediate- some of the beginners were really struggling to remember them.I think it is too much in one lesson for beginners and there were a few first timers tonight.
There are one or two hotshots about(some of them being teachers) a few hotshot groupies and two very annoying male dancers with bad floorcraft.
Other than that I enjoyed the chance to go to an venue and dance most of the night instead of djing.

Zebra Woman
16th-December-2004, 10:38 AM
You are a superb dancer, and can dance to tracks beyond the ability of the average MJ'er. I certainly have the "not good enough" feeling, which comes totally from me.
That is very kind of you BigD thank you :flower: I assure you I have a very long way to go though. :sick:



Some of the tracks you love just are not right for the average clientele.

Most DJ's are paid to play to the floor, and judge themselves on the number of happy dancers that they see out there.

Ok some of the tracks I love are not right for the average clientele. But they are interesting and different and would provide some texture to the evening IMHO. Anyway as I've said before I would be happy to dance to all the playlists in the DJ booth so I can't be that fussy or edgy can I?

DJ looking at the floor is not good enough IMO . A lot of the dancers maybe unhappy but carrying on dancing anyway. I usually treat a dance night as an aerobics session, keep going regardless especially if I'm asked to dance. If I don't smile the man will ask why, so I will smile too. So how would a DJ know if I or any of my friends had enjoyed the music? Small voice in head ' why would he care?' .....

In the room there is a mix of people with different tastes in music. I am only after a fair mix of music to match the people who are in the room. So many friends of mine have got bored with the music and stopped going to various venues without saying a single word to the DJ. Maybe they thought the DJ wouldn't take kindly to criticism :really: How does a DJ spot when that has happened?

IMO The comments book as used by Bob Gadget at Ashtons is an effective way of feeling the pulse. :cheers: Although probably only super keen people would bother to write in it, so you still have to factor in the masses who just dance and aren't bothered by the music.

Very hard job being a DJ :worthy:

ZW :flower: