PDA

View Full Version : Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...



Franck
23rd-March-2002, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by snoopy
Asking Girls to dance can be a bit dangerous for the chaps ?, well sort of. I have no problem with asking any level of dancer for a turn round the floor :yum: , but, if there are two or more friends sitting together and you manage to ask one of them for a dance but are then diverted from asking their friend(s) there is the danger that the missed friend(s) give it the "Asked you but not me, why ?, favouritism !". :sorry:

:confused: Or am I over reacting to light banter

As I read the above from snoopy, I thought that this question deserved its own thread...
I tend to agree with Snoopy in that, up to a point, it is good etiquette to ask all the ladies in a group for a dance if possible :nice:
In fact, ideally, we would dance with everyone present on the night (in an ideal world :what: :nice: )

So girls, how do you feel? Do you feel slighted if your friend (s) get asked and you do not, do you not notice, or are you just too busy doing the asking to pay attention to such nonsense ??? :really:

I wonder... :devil:

Franck.

John S
23rd-March-2002, 01:29 AM
There is a body language I'm sure we're all familiar with, of the man or woman "hovering" at the edge of the dance area, foot tapping, hips moving, clearly waiting to be asked to dance. In these situations, no problem. ;)

Also, I don't usually have a problem with asking one lady out of a group to dance (provided they're not obviously engaged in serious girltalk) but you're right, I do feel an obligation to go back immediately after and ask everyone else in the group (not that this is a problem, but sometimes it's just not possible for one reason or another - so sorry out there if anyone has been upset.) :(

I am more reluctant to ask a lady if she is sitting down and obviously part of a couple - some people come to a dance just to dance with the one partner, fair enough, and I don't want to cause friction or get a bloody nose! :eek:

But ladies have equal rights (and responsibilities) to make sure they get as many dances as the guys - assuming there are enough of us to go round, which I know isn't always the case. I know there's centuries of cultural norms to overcome, but gosh it's better to make the effort to ask, rather than sit on the sidelines just wishin' an' hopin', surely .... :)

I still remember how crap I was for a long time after I started dancing, and so I am still chuffed when asked to dance - I try not to refuse/postpone unless feeling physically wrecked, as I do know how upsetting it can be to be turned down.:(

Dunno if this answered any of what Snoops was asking, but it passed the time - thanks for reading this far!!!! :D

Gus
23rd-March-2002, 12:25 PM
Good points well made.

I think the problem occasioanly are the 'Stalkers':mad: We have had a couple of incidents (male and female) with people repeatedly asking the same person to dance. The point we've tried to promote form the stage ... very much in line with Frank's ... is that you are 'entitled' to ask anyone for a dance ... but not to overdo that entitlement.

If Ceroc is supposed to be about being social, its abour spreading the social thing across as many partners as possible. I feel that the more experienced dancers have a bit of an obligation to give something back .... dancing with begineers and the style-challenged members of the club .... everyone had to start somewhere and I think everyone reading this forum can remember the more advanced dancers who took the time to dance with them when they were starting out.

Tiggerbabe
23rd-March-2002, 06:07 PM
Couldn't agree more Gus with the point about more-experienced dancers giving something back. I do try to dance with as many of the beginners as I can, although I will admit if it is a fast record that I really like I'll probably seek out someone who's been dancing for a while - if no-one's already asked me that is.

I usually am sitting with the same crowd of girls ( and guys ) and haven't noticed anything other than good natured banter if one of us is asked and not the others. OR we will make the guy dance with both of us at the same time!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do go and ask the guys to dance - even John S - as I don't think they can get around to everyone in an evening. In fact, sometimes they are asked before they have even got back to their seat so it's kinda difficult for them.

The only thing I hate, and this happens more often in Marcos than anywhere else, is when you see someone you would like to dance with and travel almost the whole length of the hall to ask them - ONLY for someone to get there first!!!!!!!!It's the trying to look as if that is NOT what you were away to do and then, if you ask someone else, do they feel 2nd best?

I know it's hard for some of the girls to ask - but I will admit to getting a little cheesed off if they moan about not having been asked - but haven't moved out of the corner to do any asking -AND have still got their arms crossed (and their cardie wrapped round them) enveloped in an air of "don't talk to me!!!!!!"

Usually you'll find me at the edge of the floor, tapping my feet etc. etc. etc. Can't help it! I just love it!

One thing though, while I appreciate it if people give of their time to dance with me I HATE the guys who agree to dance with you and then NEVER, EVER make any eye contact with you at all!! What is the point? It's supposed to be fun, and it's most definitely not if someone obviously would rather be anywhere else. (Doesn't happen up here by the way Gus - has only happened to me in London!):wink:

Heather
23rd-March-2002, 06:08 PM
I remember when I first started Ceroc, how strange it was to be told 'Just go and ask so'n so etc to dance'. Being of a generation of women who waited to be asked , this was totally alien to me!!!
However,after a couple of weeks I soon got over it - it was either that or spend the evening at Marco's as a wallflower:sad: .
Frustrating to say the least, as the music is so good, you just have to dance! I was lucky that my sister Wendy, knew so many people, I think they felt sorry for me and asked me to dance (either that or she strongarmed them into it??).
However I must say that I have no problem in doing the asking these days, in fact, being Miss Bossy, no-one dare refuse!!!!:D
It's a thing that goes with self - confidence, when you get to the stage that you know a few moves well and can follow the male lead, it doesn't feel quite as hard asking someone to dance.
Most of us Dundee girls who go to other Scottish venues, generally do the asking at first, and usually the gesture is reciprocated later in the evening. Of course, when you you to a venue regularly, you do begin to get to know people and they generally ask you for a dance. If they didn't-we'd ask them anyway!! Our warcry is "" I love that record - I've got to find a man !!!"(Purely for dancing purposes!).

Fox
24th-March-2002, 10:22 AM
Interesting points from Heather and Sheena there, I must admit I always feel honoured when a girl asks me to dance. I think, in Dundee, that there was a serious shortage of men for a long time and it meant that the girls had to ask or sit down all night. During last year I've often wondered if beginners have left because they couldn't cross that social thing of asking guys to dance, seems a shame really if that's the case.
Sheena has a good point about that 'don't approach me air', it can definitely put me off asking, though usually I'll try and ignore it and barge in and ask anyway .......cuz I'm like that :grin:
I've no idea about etiquette as such, I simply try and get round as many ppl as possible and have fun.....before I peg out and get tired and too sticky.

Interesting and good topic for disccusion though, I'd like to hear from more ppl on this one..

Fox
:waycool:

Stuart M
25th-March-2002, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Sheena
The only thing I hate, and this happens more often in Marcos than anywhere else, is when you see someone you would like to dance with and travel almost the whole length of the hall to ask them - ONLY for someone to get there first!!!!!!!!It's the trying to look as if that is NOT what you were away to do and then, if you ask someone else, do they feel 2nd best?


Happens to me all the time in Glasgow - problem is the only ways round it I know of are:

a) to be chatting to the person before you ask them for a dance - fine if it's someone you know, but it can look like a chat-up (although again this is fine in certain circumstances:wink: )
b) the "ambush" technique of being in the area when the previous record ends. Dangerously close to stalking, and I must confess to being guilty of it at times, although I think I'm a victim as well!
c) "booking" dances in advance - fine if you like dancing to anything, but no fun when La Vida Loca starts up and you're already knackered...

So I partly got round it (in the sense of not having to chase around for a dance) by becoming a Taxi. Makes it easier for women to ask me up for a dance, whether I'm wearing the taxi t-shirt or not.

As to picking a second person if first choice disappears before your very eyes, I make a mental note to reverse the situation at some point in future, if possible.

Franck
25th-March-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Stuart M
So I partly got round it (in the sense of not having to chase around for a dance) by becoming a Taxi. Makes it easier for women to ask me up for a dance, whether I'm wearing the taxi t-shirt or not.

As to picking a second person if first choice disappears before your very eyes, I make a mental note to reverse the situation at some point in future, if possible.

Brilliant example of dance floor etiquette... No wonder you were recruited as a Taxi-dancer :grin:
Sometimes it seems like I spend most of the night making mental notes to dance with someone later or the following week.
The answer is simple really (for both men and women), if you want to get better and have a good night, you have got to stay on the dance floor. The only way to do that reliably is to be doing most of the asking :wink:

Franck.

Jane
29th-March-2002, 01:32 PM
...hey, I don't get stalked... ;)

I agree with John about the asking and being asked thing. What really helps tho, is that the teachers quite often say stuff like '...and ladies, don't forget you can ask too - give us guys a break here' - that gives us ladies a break too :)

Sometimes tho when I was too tired I had to 'postpone' in which case I promised the poor 'turned-down-guy' that I'd come and get him within the next couple of tracks. Alternatively, I went and victimised the beginners cos they do nice easy, predictable moves and you don't have to concentrate too hard. I like beginners... :)

Aaaaaaand, I'm in agreement with Sheena. I like to have at least a little bit of eye contact with the guy I'm dancing with. I asked one guy why he was looking all around the room when he was dancing with me and his explanation was that he used to be a teddy boy way-back-when and that was the style then. I re-educated him. :grin: :wink:

...oh I miss ceroc :tears: I wanna play toooooooo :devil: Hopefully you can teach Sven some cool stuff when he gets there and he can dance with me when he gets back :cool:

J.

LorraineT
31st-March-2002, 12:42 AM
Just got in (a bit early) from an event in Newcastle, having put on my dancing shoes they never got a chance to strut their stuff.Had to leave after two and a half hours of sitting and trying to look approachable/keen(but not too keen)/friendly(but not desperate)and had only one dance all night - thankfully it was from a Scot, so thank you very much much Alistair from Motherwell.

Now those of you who know me know that I'm no shy shrinking violet about asking you guys to dance, but I was just being polite and :cool: in unfamiliar territory, and as there was only about 35 people in the room, I was hardly lost in a crowd.

What did I do wrong? :confused:

I always thought the Geordies were a friendly bunch - being one myself.

John S
31st-March-2002, 07:55 PM
I'm really sorry you didn't enjoy your night out, Lorraine - it just seems that some places have a culture where people dance only with those they know, and it makes it very difficult to break into the cliques that build up. :(

Sometimes the layout of the venue contributes to that - there is one place I dance in the North of England (Prestwich) where personally I think the tables and chairs are laid out in such a way that it can be difficult to "break into" the groups sitting around the tables, to ask someone new for a dance. But if the people who go there regularly enjoy it like that then who am I to argue?:rolleyes:

But there is no excuse for somebody going along to a smallish venue and not being noticed and welcomed - by the leader/teacher if by no-one else. It's bad manners, unprofessional and bad business.:( :mad:

Guess next time you go you'll have to change back from your overly-timid shrinking-violet mode into the Lorraine we know and love, and go out, grab a guy and demand that he dance with you - or else!:D

Franck
1st-April-2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by LorraineT
What did I do wrong? :confused:

I always thought the Geordies were a friendly bunch - being one myself.

I don't think you did anything wrong at all. :sad:

It is an unfortunate chain of event, but basically, the more you dance, the more you get asked for a dance... So you need to break the initial stalemate and then ask and get asked. :nice:

I remember my initial months / years when I spent so much time sitting down :sad:
I was very good at rationalizing that I was learning a lot from watching (and maybe I was).
Despite the overall friendliness of Ceroc classes, it can be difficult sometimes to break into a new crowd.

A good trick for women generally is to ask one of the teachers / good dancers first, that way you will look brilliant on the dance floor for your first dance or 2 and will be more likely to be asked later. :wink: :waycool:

Franck.

John S
1st-April-2002, 07:07 PM
Thought this might be of interest, from The Times on Saturday Ð they run a column matching a modern etiquette question with an answer from the past Ð in this case the question was about how a lady can politely turn down an offer of a dance when she is tired or wants a break.

Here is the answer from Mr & Mrs Henry Ford in ÒGood MorningÓ dated 1926.

ÒUnless the lady has excellent reasons for refusing, she should accept the courteous offer. If a lady is previously engaged for the dance, or if she is tired, if she feels that she does not dance that specific number well enough to warrant her offering herself as a partner, she has the right to refuse, explaining her reason to the gentleman.

But after refusing she should not consent to dance that number with another. To do so is extremely rude, it is in the worst possible taste, and repetition will gain for a person an unenviable reputation.Ó

(Things havenÕt changed much, and I guess the reverse applies just as much for men refusing the offer of a dance from a lady)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

filthycute
6th-April-2002, 07:01 PM
I've only ever been refused dances because the guy has already been spoken for, which is a perfectly good excuse and no offence taken :) But i think i would rather be turned down flat than have to dance with a guy who's face is tripping him. This has only happened on a couple of occassions...thankfully!....and i have never danced with these people since, But why get up to dance when it's blatantly obvious you don't want to? There's tonnes of acceptable reasons not to....changing outfit, nipping to the loo, needing air,etc. There's nothing worse to put a dampner on your dance than looking at your partner, only for him to be glaring at the DJ booth willing the record to end and making you feel like you are an inconvience :(

Even if i'm tired, blinded by my mascara dripping in my eyes, nursing a blister on my foot or just hate the song, i'm out for a good time and like to let it show :D even nicer when your partner has the same frame of mind :grin:

And just because your not dancing doesn't mean you don't have to smile....ok you may look like a loony :yum: but you'll look more approachable and more likely to be asked to dance :grin:

filthycute x x

Franck
12th-April-2002, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by filthycute
I've only ever been refused dances because the guy has already been spoken for, which is a perfectly good excuse and no offence taken :) But i think i would rather be turned down flat than have to dance with a guy who's face is tripping him. This has only happened on a couple of occassions...thankfully!....and i have never danced with these people since, But why get up to dance when it's blatantly obvious you don't want to? There's tonnes of acceptable reasons not to....changing outfit, nipping to the loo, needing air,etc. There's nothing worse to put a dampner on your dance than looking at your partner, only for him to be glaring at the DJ booth willing the record to end and making you feel like you are an inconvience :(

Even if i'm tired, blinded by my mascara dripping in my eyes, nursing a blister on my foot or just hate the song, i'm out for a good time and like to let it show :D even nicer when your partner has the same frame of mind :grin:

And just because your not dancing doesn't mean you don't have to smile....ok you may look like a loony :yum: but you'll look more approachable and more likely to be asked to dance :grin:

filthycute x x You are completely right, one of the most common fault is not smiling (or lack of occasional eye contact :what: ).
I often get asked how to improve style while dancing, and one of the easiest way to become a better dancer is to look like you are having a good time. This inspires confidence and fun.
Even the simplest move done with confidence and a smile looks fantastic to anyone watching and of course your partner...

So forget intricate footwork and complex moves, practise your smile and you are half-way there :nice:

Franck.

Swinging bee
24th-March-2005, 06:53 PM
[QUOTE=Franck]As I read the above from snoopy, I thought that this question deserved its own thread...
I tend to agree with Snoopy in that, up to a point, it is good etiquette to ask all the ladies in a group for a dance if possible :nice:
In fact, ideally, we would dance with everyone present on the night (in an ideal world :what: :nice: )

So girls, how do you feel? Do you feel slighted if your friend (s) get asked and you do not, do you not notice, or are you just too busy doing the asking to pay attention to such nonsense ??? :really:

I wonder... :devil:

There are some good tips at..
[url]www.jivehive.co.uk
click on dance etiquette

Andreas
24th-March-2005, 10:18 PM
I admit that I don't ask very often. But that is also because I spend hardly any time off the dance floor.

However, when I look around I am always inclined to ask ladies that actually do move to the music and hence do actually look like they do enjoy the music, which is the most important factor for me.

Julie G
25th-March-2005, 09:17 AM
I tend to agree with Snoopy in that, up to a point, it is good etiquette to ask all the ladies in a group for a dance if possible :nice:
In fact, ideally, we would dance with everyone present on the night (in an ideal world :what: :nice: )

So girls, how do you feel? Do you feel slighted if your friend (s) get asked and you do not, do you not notice, or are you just too busy doing the asking to pay attention to such nonsense ??? :really:

I wonder... :devil:

Franck.

Well in my opinion unless you have the abilities of The Tramp to dance with 5 girls at one time (that was fun Trampy!!), I don't know how you possibly could dance with all the girls in the group, so I wouldn't be too worried.

I hear over there in the UK it is quite commonplace to dance only one song with one person before moving on to the next (almost rude to do so here in Oz!), so I guess you might be able to more easily and quickly move from one girl to the next in a group, but even then it would be unfair of us girls to expect you to come back and do the rounds. If I were one of those girls, I wouldn't be waiting around for the guy to finish dancing with my friends, I'd be off finding my own guy!

David Bailey
25th-March-2005, 12:57 PM
I hear over there in the UK it is quite commonplace to dance only one song with one person before moving on to the next (almost rude to do so here in Oz!)
:eek: Maybe I'm just rude... Most of the time, I do 1 dance / 1 person, but I don't know about other leaders. Guess I'm just conscious of the large number of partners and the small amount of time in an average night. Or maybe I'm just afraid of commitment :grin:


If I were one of those girls, I wouldn't be waiting around for the guy to finish dancing with my friends, I'd be off finding my own guy!
:yeah: (If I were a follower) I hate queueing, very un-British I know. But I can't recall seeing any queues forming at any dance I've been to, so I think there's a bit of urban legend in there somewhere. I've hung around waiting for the next dance with someone of course, but that's about it. Has anyone seen these queues? Maybe at weekenders...?

Andreas
25th-March-2005, 01:20 PM
I hear over there in the UK it is quite commonplace to dance only one song with one person before moving on to the next (almost rude to do so here in Oz!)

It does indeed appear to be common practice. I usually have two, in some cases more dances with a person but VERY rarely only one. In my opinion it is rude because the person who asked will always feel like they were not good enough. So having a second dance pretty much eliminates that feeling of insufficiency. My girl friend did complain about that, too, when she was over here.

TheTramp
25th-March-2005, 02:00 PM
I quite often have one dance. Don't see why that would be considered rude (unless you were used to something else, but then, when in Rome.....(if I get over there in the summer Julie, then you'll have to take time to instruct me in the ways of Australia :whistle: )).

Indeed, looking at it from the other PoV, if you usually get around 20-25 songs in the freestyle, and there's 50+ followers there, you're only going to get to dance with 1/2 of them anyhow. With 2 dances with each, you'll get to 1/4 of them. Surely the other 3/4 of people might think it's rude that you didn't dance with them....?

(BTW, I'm not saying that either option is right, or indeed, that there is even a right option. I don't think that it's rude in either case, personally. And I certainly don't feel any insufficiency, when I ask someone to dance, we have a good 3.5 minutes, and then she moves onto the next partner).

Andy McGregor
25th-March-2005, 03:27 PM
I quite often have one dance. Don't see why that would be considered rude (unless you were used to something else, but then, when in Rome.....(if I get over there in the summer Julie, then you'll have to take time to instruct me in the ways of Australia :whistle: )).

Indeed, looking at it from the other PoV, if you usually get around 20-25 songs in the freestyle, and there's 50+ followers there, you're only going to get to dance with 1/2 of them anyhow. With 2 dances with each, you'll get to 1/4 of them. Surely the other 3/4 of people might think it's rude that you didn't dance with them....?

(BTW, I'm not saying that either option is right, or indeed, that there is even a right option. I don't think that it's rude in either case, personally. And I certainly don't feel any insufficiency, when I ask someone to dance, we have a good 3.5 minutes, and then she moves onto the next partner).I'm with the Tramp on this one. I'd stand no chance of dancing with every woman in the room if I danced with them to more than one track. If I get round everyone I just do another lap and have those 2nd dances - probably mopping up the few I missed on my first time around. And, I wouldn't want to subject a woman to my same old 4 moves* for more than one track in a row:blush:

*Especially as two of them are a travelling return ...

JoC
25th-March-2005, 06:48 PM
BTW, I'm not saying that either option is right, or indeed, that there is even a right option

Nice disclaimer, what it it you're studying again...? :wink:

JoC
25th-March-2005, 07:03 PM
probably mopping up the few I missed on my first time around
Flattery will get you everywhere... :na:

I love it when occasionally I get offered a second dance from someone I've just had a great dance with, and I do suggest it occasionally myself if the moment seems right. Have decided lately it's maybe a good idea now and then especially if it's someone I'm not likely to get the chance to dance with again for some time (say not at one's usual venue). I don't get offended at all if someone asks another person at my table to dance then doesn't come back to ask me. I'm with the go get yourself a dance if you want one team (not always at a table anyway although tables do seem better places for being asked to dance than the dark corners that I'm drawn to).

Its Friday, I really should go home and let the weekend begin!

Cruella
25th-March-2005, 07:13 PM
Has anyone seen these queues? Maybe at weekenders...?

Oh yes, they do exist. A particular demo in Bedford has always got a line of ladies waiting to pounce on him. He is very good at dancing with as many ladies as possible and doesn't ever seem to get a break!! ZW you know who i mean!! I personally can't see the point of wasting time waiting for a particular guy when i could be dancing with lots of others! :)

David Bailey
25th-March-2005, 08:11 PM
Flattery will get you everywhere... :na:

I love it when occasionally I get offered a second dance from someone I've just had a great dance with, and I do suggest it occasionally myself if the moment seems right.
Oh yes, me too - let's not be dogmatic about this :yeah:

Although I think it's even nicer to be asked (or ask) for a second dance an hour or so later - clearly shows they remember you, had a good time the first time round, and want seconds. And then there's the whole "exchanging names" thing, but that's way off-topic... :D

TheTramp
25th-March-2005, 10:10 PM
Nice disclaimer, what it it you're studying again...? :wink:
Home economics. :devil:

Lynn
25th-March-2005, 11:26 PM
So girls, how do you feel? Do you feel slighted if your friend (s) get asked and you do not, do you not notice, or are you just too busy doing the asking to pay attention to such nonsense ??? :really: I remember going to the first 'proper' ceroc night (as opposed to the small class we had here where you knew everyone else) in London. My friend and I were discussing who would get most dances. I thought she would, as she is prettier than me (not difficult :tears: ) - but I did, because she went and sat behind a table while I stayed nearer the dance floor!

At the last weekender I was at, one on evening my friend got more dances, and the next evening I did! We thought it was funny (we were both shy and waiting to be asked rather than asking, though I think as I get a bit more confident I will ask more). I don't feel at all slighted if a friend is asked up, and I'm not, in fact I think its good that she is enjoying herself. I would actually feel worse if it kept happening the other way round and she was left sitting while I was asked up a lot.

And I am going to make real effort to ask the guys up more (outside of NI that is, here I do it all the time!)

David Bailey
26th-March-2005, 09:04 AM
I thought she would, as she is prettier than me (not difficult :tears: ) -
I will always put "dancing ability" before looks when asking for dances. IN fact, looks would be, I dunno, third of fourth on my list (because I'm ugly :)), after attitude and probably after general height / weight considerations (because I'm small and imperfectly formed :))



And I am going to make real effort to ask the guys up more (outside of NI that is, here I do it all the time!)
Please do - especially short ugly ones :grin:
We men always love to be asked, it's one of the lovely things about MJ, it makes the scene so much mo re friendly and differentiates is from (as far as I know) all other dance scenes.

Jooles
26th-March-2005, 12:07 PM
Slightly off topic, but thought it worth mentioning.

A new Tuesday night venue opened in London this week. There were not too many there and probably a few more women than men. The teacher was a man and after his lesson he hardly asked anybody to dance. He sat on the stage looking glum and chatting to the DJ, then he stood at the door talking to the girl taking the money. Then went outside for a bit. I did leave a couple of dances before the end so he might have come back inside and danced the last two dances.

It's not unique in my experience in London to find teachers who hardly dance after the lesson, but it sounds as if, certainly in Scotland, this would not be the norm, and I think it would be really nice here if the teachers could be bothered to dance with a few beginners at the very least.

We have just had a new Aussie teacher, Simon join the ranks in London and he spends the entire night trying to dance with every girl in the room and what a difference it makes to the night when you have a dance with the teacher.

MartinHarper
26th-March-2005, 12:49 PM
We men always love to be asked, it's one of the lovely things about MJ, it makes the scene so much mo re friendly and differentiates is from (as far as I know) all other dance scenes.

Women sometimes ask in Lindy too. Can't speak for other dance scenes.

Lynn
26th-March-2005, 01:01 PM
Women sometimes ask in Lindy too. Can't speak for other dance scenes. I can only compare MJ to the salsa scene locally - and I wouldn't ask most of the guys for a dance. Not that they would always refuse - but they would dance with a pained expression on their face at having to dance with someone not as good as them or outside of their 'group'. (I know, I have got this reaction going round the rotation in classes!) I think that sort of reaction here is one of the things that has made me hesitant in asking guys in MJ because I was at several social salsa events before I was at any MJ ones. Unless you 'get in' with the crowd, you don't get asked. (Of course there is the 2 women for every man thing, so the men can be choosey). In MJ complete strangers will ask me to dance, and will dance if I ask them (seem happy enough about it). Very different scene, and much prefered. :clap:

Andreas
26th-March-2005, 01:53 PM
I can only compare MJ to the salsa scene locally - and I wouldn't ask most of the guys for a dance. Not that they would always refuse - but they would dance with a pained expression on their face at having to dance with someone not as good as them or outside of their 'group'. (I know, I have got this reaction going round the rotation in classes!) I think that sort of reaction here is one of the things that has made me hesitant in asking guys in MJ because I was at several social salsa events before I was at any MJ ones. Unless you 'get in' with the crowd, you don't get asked. (Of course there is the 2 women for every man thing, so the men can be choosey). In MJ complete strangers will ask me to dance, and will dance if I ask them (seem happy enough about it). Very different scene, and much prefered. :clap:

That is quite sad but true. The Salsa scene is really bad in these regards. Often, however, the sort of arrogance people display is not even founded on particularly high skills. Not that arrogance is ever justified anyway.

Lynn
26th-March-2005, 02:15 PM
That is quite sad but true. The Salsa scene is really bad in these regards. Often, however, the sort of arrogance people display is not even founded on particularly high skills. Not that arrogance is ever justified anyway. I haven't been to salsa events outside of Belfast so I can only comment on locally. I have only seen one really fab salsa dancer here (there are others who are good but one guy stands out) and I danced with him in a class once and he had a lovely attitude, smiled when I got something right etc. It does tend to be the 'average but dancing for a while' types who are most 'arrogant'. I do think that has had an influence on me not feeling my dancing is 'good enough' to ask a better dancer up. And I know you can get those types in MJ too, but I do think there is a different culture in dancing with people you don't know or you know are less advanced than you.

David Bailey
26th-March-2005, 02:20 PM
I can only compare MJ to the salsa scene locally - and I wouldn't ask most of the guys for a dance. Not that they would always refuse - but they would dance with a pained expression on their face at having to dance with someone not as good as them or outside of their 'group'.
:yeah: Totally agree - in several years of dancing salsa, I doubt if I got asked by a stranger in a London club more than 3-4 times. It's much more of a lcub culture... :(


It does tend to be the 'average but dancing for a while' types who are most 'arrogant'.
:yeah: :yeah: Totally agree again - we're soulmates :)
Having said that, that's not just salsa, some MJ-ers have that attitude I think. Don't dance with them :)

Andreas
26th-March-2005, 02:42 PM
I do think that has had an influence on me not feeling my dancing is 'good enough' to ask a better dancer up.

It is not about feeling that you are good or not. It is about you knowing that there is still more to learn and pursuing this that counts. That counts for all levels and people who are aware of that will not be arrogant and also should not feel 'unworthy' ;)

David Bailey
26th-March-2005, 07:35 PM
It is not about feeling that you are good or not. It is about you knowing that there is still more to learn and pursuing this that counts. That counts for all levels and people who are aware of that will not be arrogant and also should not feel 'unworthy' ;)

:yeah: :yeah: I'm repeating myself, but this is something I feel very strongly about. To me, what marks a really good dancer is if, for any dance with any partner, they can ensure that both partners enjoy the dance and learn something from the dance - no matter what the level of their partner. A willingness to learn - generosity of spirit, if you want to be poetic - and to teach, without being patronising, is the attitude that sorts out the superb dancers from the ones who just look good to outsiders.
I've seen quite a few superb-looking dances, but then I may talk to one of the partners after, and it'll be something like "It was such hard work, he really yanked me around", or "She just did her own thing all the time" - either way, it's "I didn't enjoy it".
Anyone, at any level, can always learn, and really good dancers, I think, should always be able to adapt their dance to their partners level - raising their game, or simplyfying their routine, as needed. If you can but won't do that, you're just being arrogant. MJ, salsa, both have these type of people, good enough to think they're great, but not good enough to adapt. Grrr :angry:
OK, rant mode off, I think I'll go and watch Dr Who to cool me down:)

Andreas
26th-March-2005, 07:55 PM
Anyone, at any level, can always learn, and really good dancers, I think, should always be able to adapt their dance to their partners level - raising their game, or simplyfying their routine, as needed.

:yeah: :yeah:


If you can but won't do that, you're just being arrogant. MJ, salsa, both have these type of people, good enough to think they're great, but not good enough to adapt. Grrr :angry:

Quite frankly I think every person who CAN WILL adapt. Those people that react with arrogance simply CAN'T adapt. The reason why I think this way is because it makes the job much easier, not just for the other person, no, for BOTH. So why wouldn't you? A harmonic simple dance will always look much better than a disharmonic dance with moves that are way beyond one person's abilities. So not even vanity could make you want to do this. It is simply lack of ability.

:flower:

Piglet
26th-March-2005, 08:18 PM
I'm with the go get yourself a dance if you want one team.

:yeah: I'm with you on that one Jo!

David Bailey
26th-March-2005, 10:10 PM
<snip> So why wouldn't you?
You (they, not you of course :)) wouldn't because it's too much effort, and they think they're the dogs whatsits - i.e. it's an honour for you to dance with them, you should be grateful, and you should just do what they want without daring to have a style of your own. Alas, there are MJ dancers like that - I agree that they're not very good, but unfortunately they don't know that...

I'm getting hacked-off again, I should probably go and practise my compliments somewhere :)

ChrisA
26th-March-2005, 10:57 PM
It does tend to be the 'average but dancing for a while' types who are most 'arrogant'.

....:yeah:

This is SO true.

All the really good dancers I know, to whose levels I can only aspire in my dreams, are genuinely nice, dedicated people, committed to improving their dancing (in fact constantly aware of how far short of their own ideals they come), never satisfied with where they've got to, happy to help out lesser mortals where they can, and very human.

It's what makes me so angry when people slag off the 'greats' as elitist, or whatever. These people, in my experience, are simply not like the picture that the jealous paint of them.

It's the deep-down mediocre, lots of years of dancing but not a shred of self-awareness, ivory tower, don't-criticise-me-in-case-I-have-to-look-honestly-at-myself types that are the most arrogant, and the least receptive to feedback, direct or indirect.

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2005, 12:50 PM
All the really good dancers I know, to whose levels I can only aspire in my dreams, are genuinely nice, dedicated people, committed to improving their dancing (in fact constantly aware of how far short of their own ideals they come), never satisfied with where they've got to, happy to help out lesser mortals where they can, and very human. :yeah:

I agree with ChrisA on this. Just about every great dancer I know will dance with everyone - and they're always trying to find ways to get better. In my own area many people look up to me as a fab dancer - if only they knew I'm not sure what I should be doing with my free hand, am trying to stop myself doing a step-in-place on every second beat, am trying to do single spins more slowly so they finish in the right place for the music, am annoyed with myself when an interesting bit of music goes unmarked by my dancing, wish I knew a few more interesting moves, etc, etc, etc.

So, when I'm a hundred and become that great dancer I'm aspiring to be, do you think I'm going to change what I do? And, more importantly, I'll still be working on improving so how will I know I am that great dancer?


It's what makes me so angry when people slag off the 'greats' as elitist, or whatever. I don't think it's the great dancers that get slagged off as elitist, it's the 'elitist' dancers that get slagged off for being what they are. The reason they are elitist might be because of the self-image they hold of their dancing: it might even be the self-image they hold of their attractiveness to the opposite sex - but there ARE elitists out there and they get right up my nose in the usually friendly and inclusive MJ environment :mad: But, as ChrisA says, they're not usually the truly great dancers :flower:


It's the deep-down mediocre, lots of years of dancing but not a shred of self-awareness, ivory tower, don't-criticise-me-in-case-I-have-to-look-honestly-at-myself types that are the most arrogant, and the least receptive to feedback, direct or indirect. :yeah:

ChrisA
27th-March-2005, 01:59 PM
I don't think it's the great dancers that get slagged off as elitist, it's the 'elitist' dancers that get slagged off for being what they are. The reason they are elitist might be because of the self-image they hold of their dancing: it might even be the self-image they hold of their attractiveness to the opposite sex
This is true.

But it's also true that there is an undercurrent (and not that 'under', either, sometimes) here on the forum that associates those who take dancing seriously with elitism.

If fostering excellence is elitist then I'm happy to be tagged as such. I want to improve, and I want to see the best that there is available get better, and I want more people to aspire to excellence and improve themselves as a result. There is no downside to an ongoing improvement in standards.

Sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness, lack of care, are all things you find on the dance floor occasionally, and are not nice. But they're nothing to do with being a good dancer.

Julie G
27th-March-2005, 02:03 PM
(if I get over there in the summer Julie, then you'll have to take time to instruct me in the ways of Australia :whistle: )).

What do you mean "if" Trampy?!? When will you decide DanceMania is clearly the place to be at the end of August?!

Julie G
27th-March-2005, 02:06 PM
:eek: Maybe I'm just rude... Most of the time, I do 1 dance / 1 person, but I don't know about other leaders. Guess I'm just conscious of the large number of partners and the small amount of time in an average night. Or maybe I'm just afraid of commitment :grin:

It's only just occurred to me that the high numbers at the UK venues are perhaps the reason for the one dance etiquette being acceptable. It all makes sense now. I'll never be offended again when dancing with a UK guy!

TheTramp
27th-March-2005, 02:07 PM
What do you mean "if" Trampy?!? When will you decide DanceMania is clearly the place to be at the end of August?!
Already decided that Miss Gunn.

Now I just need the funds....

(Anyone in the Dundee area know of any full-time jobs that a hard-working student can do from May 16th to the end of July (and possibly in term time on a part-time basis))??

David Bailey
27th-March-2005, 08:34 PM
It's only just occurred to me that the high numbers at the UK venues are perhaps the reason for the one dance etiquette being acceptable. It all makes sense now. I'll never be offended again when dancing with a UK guy!
Actually, I never thought about it either :blush: but now you've put it so clearly, I think you're probably right.

Another day, another fact learned, I'm getting good at this acquiring-knowledge thing :)

David Bailey
27th-March-2005, 08:44 PM
There's far too much agreement on this thread, I'll have to try to disagree with something someone's saying or we'll drown in consensus... ahhh:

Sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness, lack of care, are all things you find on the dance floor occasionally, and are not nice. But they're nothing to do with being a good dancer.
I'd disagree (whew :)). A solo dancer can have all the sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness and lack of care he/she wants. But surely one of the main differentiators of a good partner dancer is the ability to make the partner look and feel good, and I'd like to think that taking care with your partner is a big part of that job. I could be just indulging in wishful thinking here of course.

JoC
28th-March-2005, 05:55 PM
(Anyone in the Dundee area know of any full-time jobs that a hard-working student can do from May 16th to the end of July (and possibly in term time on a part-time basis))??

Would they be sewing and cooking type jobs? :devil: :devil:

TheTramp
28th-March-2005, 06:00 PM
Would they be sewing and cooking type jobs? :devil: :devil:
Pretty much anything. I'm open to offers!! :flower:

Little Monkey
28th-March-2005, 06:12 PM
I'd disagree (whew :)). A solo dancer can have all the sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness and lack of care he/she wants. But surely one of the main differentiators of a good partner dancer is the ability to make the partner look and feel good, and I'd like to think that taking care with your partner is a big part of that job. I could be just indulging in wishful thinking here of course.

:yeah:

I SOOOOO agree!! I've danced with a few (very rare, actually!!) of the sneering, arrogant and self-centered kind, and despite being very good dancers, they made me feel like s**t :eek: , and I'll avoid dancing with them in the future!!

Very often, these dancers are also the ones to ask you up by just flicking their head in the direction of the floor, or just extend a hand, without asking, smiling or hardly looking at you. How off-putting is that??? Saying that, I know a few guys that I dance with on a regular basis who ask me up like that, but in a jokey way, and that's ok! :hug:

LM

Clive Long
29th-March-2005, 10:31 AM
This is true.

But it's also true that there is an undercurrent (and not that 'under', either, sometimes) here on the forum that associates those who take dancing seriously with elitism.

If fostering excellence is elitist then I'm happy to be tagged as such. I want to improve, and I want to see the best that there is available get better, and I want more people to aspire to excellence and improve themselves as a result. There is no downside to an ongoing improvement in standards.

Sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness, lack of care, are all things you find on the dance floor occasionally, and are not nice. But they're nothing to do with being a good dancer.

I'm with Chris A on this

I am uncomfortable by the word "elitism".

I looked at an online dictionary - and that's not because I want to use a pedantic weapon to beat people about their use or misuse of the word elitism - and I believe dictionary definitions do not always define current meaning or reflect currect usage of words.

However.

Dictionary.com defines elitism as:

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
3.Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

I don't think any of these can apply in Modern Jive since there are no "arbitrary" barriers to entry nor barriers to the dancer's development (excepting time, money and opportunity to devote to dancing)

So let's not argue about elitism. For those who want to develop their dancing let them aspire to excellence. Recognise the "MJ elite" results from the hard work of those (including teachers) who give their time to dance - is open for anyone to enter (given time, money and opportunity). For those who just want a fun, sociable, diverting hobby, dance is there for them too.

The MJ elite (if it exists) does not benefit in any way that disadvantages other dancers.

Clive

David Bailey
29th-March-2005, 12:04 PM
Very often, these dancers are also the ones to ask you up by just flicking their head in the direction of the floor, or just extend a hand, without asking, smiling or hardly looking at you. How off-putting is that???
LM
Simple and easy answer, ignore them :)

Gadget
29th-March-2005, 12:04 PM
I am uncomfortable by the word "elitism".
~snip~
I'm uncomfortable with the word "elite" simply because of the association to "eliteism" - If you say "the best dancers", "dance gods", or whatever then there are less connetations and links to the 'snobbish' attitude implied by "eliteism".

To me, saying "the elite of MJ" sounds like "the elitist people of MJ" which leads to "eliteism". Amazing how a simple difference in view on the same word can turn what was intended as a flattering and complementary statement into a demeaning and derogatory one. :sick:

ajiver
29th-March-2005, 12:39 PM
I've had several guys who were pretty poor dancers consistently singling me out for a dance in some of the dance holidays I'd been on. One of them had admitted that some women had turned him down and I could see why. He wanted to practise some of the moves that we had learned that day and took a while to realize that he'd made a mistake. I didn't turn any of them down although I wanted to. I wonder if I look like the 'won't say no' type. It sort of kills my confidence a bit, not to say that I have a lot of it in the first place. Of course, there are also some really fantastic dancers who would ask me for a dance every night.

ajiver
29th-March-2005, 12:47 PM
I haven't been to salsa events outside of Belfast so I can only comment on locally. I have only seen one really fab salsa dancer here (there are others who are good but one guy stands out) and I danced with him in a class once and he had a lovely attitude, smiled when I got something right etc. It does tend to be the 'average but dancing for a while' types who are most 'arrogant'. I do think that has had an influence on me not feeling my dancing is 'good enough' to ask a better dancer up. And I know you can get those types in MJ too, but I do think there is a different culture in dancing with people you don't know or you know are less advanced than you.

I am starting to feel a little better about the salsa scene here in Belfast. I had a pretty enjoyable night at the La Tasca, Odyssey Saturday night. A couple of guys that I haven't met before had asked me for a dance.

Little Monkey
29th-March-2005, 02:07 PM
Simple and easy answer, ignore them :)

Think you mis-read my post, sweetie! I was simply commenting on the fact that arrogant behaviour is off-putting! And ignoring them is just what I do - or find some otherexcuse for not dancing with them!

LM :hug:

David Bailey
29th-March-2005, 07:32 PM
Think you mis-read my post, sweetie! I was simply commenting on the fact that arrogant behaviour is off-putting! And ignoring them is just what I do - or find some EVIL VILLAIN (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3790&page=3) otherexcuse for not dancing with them!

LM :hug:
Yep, probably - I assumed you were still dancing with these Evil People. But then perhaps I assumed they were your Evil Henchmen, as you are officially an
Evil Villain-ess (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3790&page=3) :grin:

Lynn
29th-March-2005, 11:56 PM
I am starting to feel a little better about the salsa scene here in Belfast. I had a pretty enjoyable night at the La Tasca, Odyssey Saturday night. A couple of guys that I haven't met before had asked me for a dance.Haven't been to La Tasca yet, I'll try it next month. I think it does depend on the 'crowd' at the particular event you go to. But my initial experiences were that no-one really asked me up - OK I didn't know most of them, but I didn't know the guys when I went to a Ceroc night in London, or when I went to the first Southport, and was asked up.

Now just have to practice asking the guys more often!

ellen24
30th-March-2005, 12:10 AM
Yeah I have to agree with Gus! Although it's nice to learn routines with other beginners when you're just starting out, some of the more experienced dancers show you different techniques of each move, and I feel that by mixing these techniques with your own practice you can create this whole new movement with other beginners! Taxi Dancers also need a mention coz they're great too!

Daisy Chain
30th-March-2005, 12:07 PM
:
Very often, these dancers are also the ones to ask you up by just flicking their head in the direction of the floor, or just extend a hand, without asking, smiling or hardly looking at you. How off-putting is that???
LM

Very off-putting as you walk towards them and they reach for the gorgeous young thing who was standing just behind you :tears:

Daisy

(A Put-Out Little Flower)

ChrisA
30th-March-2005, 01:38 PM
So let's not argue about elitism. For those who want to develop their dancing let them aspire to excellence. Recognise the "MJ elite" results from the hard work of those (including teachers) who give their time to dance - is open for anyone to enter (given time, money and opportunity). For those who just want a fun, sociable, diverting hobby, dance is there for them too.


...... :yeah:

Well said.

ChrisA
30th-March-2005, 01:46 PM
This is true.
Sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness, lack of care, are all things you find on the dance floor occasionally, and are not nice. But they're nothing to do with being a good dancer.


I'd disagree (whew :)). A solo dancer can have all the sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness and lack of care he/she wants. But surely one of the main differentiators of a good partner dancer is the ability to make the partner look and feel good, and I'd like to think that taking care with your partner is a big part of that job.
Absolutely. :yeah:

What I meant was, whether someone is all those nasty things is nothing to do with whether they're a good dancer or not. It's to do with whether they're sneering, arrogant, thoughtless and uncaring.

There are good dancers that are like this, and ones that aren't. There are also people like this that aren't good dancers.

I just wish people would stop associating being nasty with being a good dancer (usually in the context of bemoaning a perception of elitism), because the two are not connected.

MartinHarper
30th-March-2005, 03:09 PM
I just wish people would stop associating being nasty with being a good dancer.

*waves magic wand*
Behold, your wish has been granted.

(always easiest to grant wishes that are already true)

bigdjiver
30th-March-2005, 03:16 PM
I cannot think of a single MJ dancer that I would think of as "Nasty". People naturally gather in peer groups, and those peer groups are often based on ability and common beliefs. Elitism is built into all of us to some degree. It is not something we recognise in ourselves, but easily identify in others. To drive past one venue to another because the dancers are better there is a degree of elitism. It is also perfectly natural, and no reason to be condemned in any way. Perhaps we gather in a corner with all of our old friends, but to a newcomer it looks like a herd of the elite gathered together for protection. We may not feel the psychological barrier, but the outsider does.

Someone once said to me that they found that my regular venue was cliquy, an accusation that I vigorously denied. However, I went back next week with new eyes, and realised that the open friendly place that I had know from its inception had indeed grown that way. There was still the "will dance with anybody that asks" ethos in place, but, the psychological barriers and zones could easily be identified. Since that time I have made a point of asking newcomers for a dance. That led me to the discovery that there were such things as touring cliques, or elites, or just groups of friends dancing somewhere different together. Whatever the name applied, the behaviour, the results, and the feelings for the "outsider" are the same.

ChrisA
30th-March-2005, 03:49 PM
I cannot think of a single MJ dancer that I would think of as "Nasty".
Well turning a dance down with an obvious sneer, having done the 'looked them up and down' thing, is behaviour that I would describe as nasty. I don't think it's as common as some would have you believe, and of course I'm not saying anything about whether a person that exhibits such behaviour is a nasty person in general. But I, and quite a few people that I know have experienced it occasionally - it is certainly real.


To drive past one venue to another because the dancers are better there is a degree of elitism.

This is such a broad definition, though, that I think it's completely unhelpful.

I'm sure Gadget's not alone in his association of negative connotations with anything with 'elite' in it (well, almost anything :devil: ), so there's no point in labelling such a wide range of activity as such.

Is it helpful to the MJ world for someone to get so fed up with all the dreadful music and uninspiring dancers at one venue that they give up completely? When they might have been re-inspired by going somewhere else for a while, mixing with better dancers and then being in a position to go back and give something back?

Elitism, as Clive said, is when the elite put obstacles in the way of others entering their world, and with MJ, the reverse is true: the so-called 'elite' are generally bending over backwards to encourage, coach, teach, dance with, and generally help lesser mortals improve and in time, become just as good - and long may that ethos continue.

However, we have to be prepared to work at it to get the attention. And if working at it means making an effort to ask people to dance at a new venue that we go to, being sociable and interested in others, and generally being appealing to dance with, then that's what we should do.

Of course it's nice to ask newcomers to dance, and make them feel welcome. But they have no right to judge whether, for example, a venue is cliquey or not, if all they do is sit on the sidelines waiting for a regular to ask them.

David Bailey
30th-March-2005, 04:18 PM
I cannot think of a single MJ dancer that I would think of as "Nasty".
Off the top of my head, I can, unfortunately, think of several. People are people, and sometimes you get nasty ones. I'd still maintain that it's very rare to find a really good dancer who is also nasty, but not alas impossible.

:yeah: to your points about clique-y-ness, it's sometimes a function of perspective. If you're in a clique, you don't think it's cliquey :)


That led me to the discovery that there were such things as touring cliques, or elites, or just groups of friends dancing somewhere different together
Yes, I never thought of it that way, it's all these elitist Hipster dancers, I blame the parents myself :)

MartinHarper
30th-March-2005, 04:21 PM
{Newcomers} have no right to judge whether, for example, a venue is cliquey or not...

Actually, they do. In fact, not only do they have the right to form an opinion about my actions, they even have a right to express that opinion to other people.

ChrisA
30th-March-2005, 04:32 PM
Actually, they do. In fact, not only do they have the right to form an opinion about my actions, they even have a right to express that opinion to other people.

Well Ok, conceded.

In the sense that everyone has a right to form an opinion about anything at all, no matter how unreasonable, and express it to other people, of course you are right.

< sigh >

But it doesn't make it a sensible course of action for someone to go to a venue, expect others to make all the effort, and then go away thinking that it's cliquey.

David Bailey
30th-March-2005, 04:37 PM
But they (newcomers) have no right to judge whether, for example, a venue is cliquey or not, if all they do is sit on the sidelines waiting for a regular to ask them.
I think that's a little strong... In fact, newcomers, coming with an unbiased viewpoint, could even be the best people to judge the atmosphere at a place - people who've been going for a while will have their own prejudices and experience, and may not have such an objective viewpoint. The only caveat I'd add is that if they're total novices, they may have different expectations of a venue (i.e. they could find all venues cliquey).

ChrisA
30th-March-2005, 04:44 PM
In fact, newcomers, coming with an unbiased viewpoint, could even be the best people to judge the atmosphere at a place - people who've been going for a while will have their own prejudices and experience, and may not have such an objective viewpoint.
I take that point completely.

But I think for a newcomer to be able to make any kind of a reasonable assessment, they would have to actually participate.

For example, do the class(es), ask people to dance, maybe say Hi to people not dancing, maybe talk to the DJ, dance with the teacher, etc, etc.

If all that happened was that they sat at the side and watched, I can't see how they'd form a balanced impression.

Graham
30th-March-2005, 05:04 PM
I take that point completely.

But I think for a newcomer to be able to make any kind of a reasonable assessment, they would have to actually participate.

For example, do the class(es), ask people to dance, maybe say Hi to people not dancing, maybe talk to the DJ, dance with the teacher, etc, etc.

If all that happened was that they sat at the side and watched, I can't see how they'd form a balanced impression.
:yeah:
I agree. For a start they would not be able to easily tell what kind of relationships existed, in the sense of how well each individual knew the others, and how friendly/warm each relationship was. People agreeing to dance without words being exchanged could indicate a very distant relationship but it could also mean a very close one.

bigdjiver
30th-March-2005, 07:16 PM
Well turning a dance down with an obvious sneer, having done the 'looked them up and down' thing, is behaviour that I would describe as nasty. e.g. (God that """""" has taken the skin off my ankle, and here's another hopeful ... "Sorry, not at the moment" .. I wonder if its bleeding ...) n one side of the mirror we see a vision of incomparable beauty, from the other side it looks like dirty brown paint. I do not know anybody that is deliberately nasty to anybody asking for a dance. (don't want to, either)


This is such a broad definition, though, that I think it's completely unhelpful.

The Oxford Dictionary failed to impress you, lets try www.dictionary.com

Elite: The best or most skilled members of a group.
elitism: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.


Is it helpful to the MJ world for someone to get so fed up with all the dreadful music and uninspiring dancers at one venue that they give up completely?


When they might have been re-inspired by going somewhere else for a while, mixing with better dancers and then being in a position to go back and give something back? I have come amongst you "uninspiring dancers" ... Naaah that's not elitist, that's generousity.

What inspires me is to see a beginner, rigid with seld-doubt and depreceation get up the fifth time of asking, and dance. To see people of all ages, shapes and sizes, that could not do it, but now can. I do not think I know any uninspiring dancers, either. (but, boy, are there degrees of inspiration ...)


Elitism, as Clive said, is when the elite put obstacles in the way of others entering their world, some people consider 50 miles an obstacle.


with MJ, the reverse is true: the so-called 'elite' are generally bending over backwards to encourage, coach, teach, dance with, and generally help lesser mortals improve but do not necessarily look for them at your local venue.
and in time, become just as good I doubt they are going to stand still while the rest of us catch up.


- and long may that ethos continue...I have no doubt that it will.



Of course it's nice to ask newcomers to dance, and make them feel welcome. But they have no right to judge whether, for example, a venue is cliquey or not, if all they do is sit on the sidelines waiting for a regular to ask them.Last night I went to an unfamiliar venue (not Ceroc) There was a row of 6 beginner ladies sitting along one wall, abandoned there after the beginner revision. From their viewpoint they could see some couples dancing, three ladies standing hopefully, and assorted huddles around the room, backs outwards, deep in conversation. That was the pattern for the whole of the freestyle. I would not, and did not, even try enter one of those huddles myself. It would have seemed like rudeness to me.

I suspect as a beginner lady I would have just watched a while, then gone home. In the place of Miss Rigidity I doubt I would have returned. From their view, and mine, I would diagnose "cliquy". I do not think that anybody else but me asked any of them to dance, though Miss rigidity and another got up and practised the routine together near the end.

ChrisA
30th-March-2005, 07:57 PM
The Oxford Dictionary failed to impress you, lets try www.dictionary.com

elitism: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
I'm not disputing this definition. I'm disputing your assertion that choosing to go somewhere where the dancers are better fits it. There's nothing in choosing one venue over another that's elitist - anyone can choose the same venues if they want.

I first went to Hipsters when I found Nigel's class really difficult, and if I absorbed 5% of what Amir taught I came away feeling a real sense of achievement. No one made me feel unwelcome at any time, although when I crashed obliviously through the breaks I got some funny looks.

The only difference between me and the beginners that you were referring to is that I didn't sit on the sidelines - I got off my backside and got stuck in. It's that that brings about the acceptance that you seem to imply is so lacking wherever anyone is concerned to take the dance seriously.


Is it helpful to the MJ world for someone to get so fed up with all the dreadful music and uninspiring dancers at one venue that they give up completely? When they might have been re-inspired by going somewhere else for a while, mixing with better dancers and then being in a position to go back and give something back?



I have come amongst you "uninspiring dancers" ... Naaah that's not elitist, that's generousity.

Making snide comments like this is approaching my definition of 'nasty'. I note that you resorted to a snide remark rather than actually answering the question.

Can you not countenance the possibility that people less altruistic than yourself could get bored dancing exclusively with people that grip, yank, bounce, treat the music like a metronome, fail to follow (or lead, obviously), and aren't interested in that appallingly elitist pursuit, getting better at their dancing?

What is so awful about the possibility of going somewhere else, discovering lots of cool new things, a fresh inspiration and enthusiasm, and then coming back reinvigorated and being much more of a pleasure to dance with than one was before? :confused:


the so-called 'elite' are generally bending over backwards to encourage, coach, teach, dance with, and generally help lesser mortals improve and in time, become just as good - and long may that ethos continue.


but do not necessarily look for them at your local venue.
So not only have these people spent huge amounts of time, money and effort getting to where they are, and retain a care for those coming up behind, but you expect them to seek you out as well?

That's not reasonable in the world I inhabit - if I want help from the elite, and they're prepared to give it, I go to them; I don't expect them to hang out where I am.


A fact of life is that people have a better time if they go out and get what they want rather than hoping it will come to them.

Modern Jive is no exception. Those who fail to recognise this and act on it will always be amongst the wallflowers, whinging about how no one ever asks them to dance and how elitist and cliquey it all is.

Sad really, they'd have such a better time if they just dived in. :flower:

Lynn
30th-March-2005, 09:12 PM
e.g. (God that """""" has taken the skin off my ankle, and here's another hopeful ... "Sorry, not at the moment" .. I wonder if its bleeding ...) n one side of the mirror we see a vision of incomparable beauty, from the other side it looks like dirty brown paint. I do not know anybody that is deliberately nasty to anybody asking for a dance. (don't want to, either) That's good that you haven't ever come across a dancer with a bad attitude, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I don't think this is about refusing a dance, everyone has times when they do that, and shouldn't be judged on the reasons given. Its the attitude that some can have when refusing that is the 'nasty' part. I can recall shortly after moving up to an improvers class (not MJ) I was having a bit of difficulty getting a move right. My partner was scowling, looked fed up with me - I wasn't going to take it personally, till I saw his reaction with the next girl in the rotation (who got the move right), smiles, enjoying himself. I know that's a class situation, not freestyle, but it was that look of 'you're not good enough for me to dance with' that does happen - not just perception, not a 'clique' (which can just be a group of friends) - but that interaction between two people when one person turns down a dance with a sneering attitude.

Fortunately its rather rare! :grin:

Gadget
30th-March-2005, 09:22 PM
I'm not disputing this definition. I'm disputing your assertion that choosing to go somewhere where the dancers are better fits it. There's nothing in choosing one venue over another that's elitist - anyone can choose the same venues if they want.
It is not the fact that there is a choice that (could) make the decision "elitist", but the mentality behind the choice. The self-justification used in deciding that you will travel 50 miles, to attend a venue that differs only in the people attending it to the one that's 5 miles away. If it's to be part of a small group that does not dance with anyone outside of themselves, then that (IMHO) is elitism. {Note the qualifiers in the above}


The only difference between me and the beginners that you were referring to is that I didn't sit on the sidelines - I got off my backside and got stuck in. It's that that brings about the acceptance that you seem to imply is so lacking wherever anyone is concerned to take the dance seriously.Ah, perhaps it's this "taking the dance seriously" that throws up so many barriers? It's dancing. It's fun. I screw up, I laugh it off. At the point that I start taking it seriously and stop having fun, I think I will have to find something else to obsess about.
(and I know; it may be possible to take it seriously and have fun - but personally, I think that's what workshops and lessons are for {sometimes :whistle:}. On the dance floor, socially, it's never straight-faced serious.)


Can you not countenance the possibility that people less altruistic than yourself could get bored dancing exclusively with people that grip, yank, bounce, treat the music like a metronome, fail to follow (or lead, obviously), and aren't interested in that appallingly elitist pursuit, getting better at their dancing?You find that everyone you dance with falls into these categories? That's all you find to dance with?
Obviously you are exadurating to make a point, but just because they may do these things, why do you assume that they are not interested in getting better? How will they get better if good dancers like yourself 'get board' with dancing with them and shun them for another 'elite dancer'?
Can you not consider the possibility that these people you isolate are people that obviously love to dance, and love to dance with good dancers. If you are concerned about dancing with them (them injuring you) then why not communicate these concerns?


What is so awful about the possibility of going somewhere else, discovering lots of cool new things, a fresh inspiration and enthusiasm, and then coming back reinvigorated and being much more of a pleasure to dance with than one was before? :confused::D IMO absolutely nothing. But in doing this, you are not doing it because the people you are passing that night are unworthy of your attention - you are doing it to improve yourself. learn cool stuff. get enthused. There may be a little bit of "escape" in it, but your local venue does not have exclusive rights to your talents.


So not only have these people spent huge amounts of time, money and effort getting to where they are, and retain a care for those coming up behind, but you expect them to seek you out as well?No, the expectation is as it always has been: to not be rejected (or feel rejected)
If these dancers are never witnessed dancing with novices, then how do they "retail a care for those coming up behind"? Seeing someone dance outside of their perceived 'clique' immediately softens the elitist perception and makes them more approachable.


That's not reasonable in the world I inhabit - if I want help from the elite, and they're prepared to give it, I go to them; I don't expect them to hang out where I am.OK, so the "elite" "hang out" in specific areas and only open their doors to people who knock on them. This does not sound a good argument against calling them elitist.

A fact of life is that people have a better time if they go out and get what they want rather than hoping it will come to them.yes, but it's easier to actually reach out and have the good dancers be there rather than having to knock three times and say the secret password before the elite will let you in.
The argument is not about simply getting off your butt, it's about being receptive to those who do.


Sad really, they'd have such a better time if they just dived in. :flower:If you can't swim and have a fear of drowning, are you going to take a stranger's word to "dive right in; the water's lovely!" :rolleyes: The wallflowers may paddle their feet in the water, but without the mermaid's intervention, she will have no new sailors to drown. :D

David Franklin
30th-March-2005, 11:13 PM
It is not the fact that there is a choice that (could) make the decision "elitist", but the mentality behind the choice. The self-justification used in deciding that you will travel 50 miles, to attend a venue that differs only in the people attending it to the one that's 5 miles away. If it's to be part of a small group that does not dance with anyone outside of themselves, then that (IMHO) is elitism. {Note the qualifiers in the above}I know you use qualifiers, but I don't think that justifies your use of strawmen. I don't know of any venues that only allow in an 'elite'. None of the 'elite' dancers I know refuse dancers with beginners. So the accusation of exclusivity fails.


OK, so the "elite" "hang out" in specific areas and only open their doors to people who knock on them. This does not sound a good argument against calling them elitist. They go to a venue just like anyone else! If you call that elitist, then surely so is MJ - all those people going to special dance venues instead of the local nightclub - the horror! And consider this - all these 'elite' venues are actually open to anyone who wants to turn up. But (AFAIK) Ceroc has classes open only to teachers. Can't really get more elitist than that.


yes, but it's easier to actually reach out and have the good dancers be there rather than having to knock three times and say the secret password before the elite will let you in.Strawman again. No secret passwords that I'm aware of at any venues. In fact, I see almost the complete opposite - go to the 'elite' venues, and people will actually teach you the 'secret stuff' - you know, like frame, connection, musicality, how to move well, or do drops and lifts properly. Go to your typical MJ venue, and you have a few people who can do these things well and everyone else wondering "how do they know how to do that when it's never taught?".

I think there is a legitimate concern that the elites will end up completely deserting the normal MJ nights, and so weaken them. But most of these people dance a lot (and it ain't no coincidence!) - often 4-5 times a week. There are very few 'elite' evenings throughout the whole country. So I'm not sure this is a real problem.

Dave

spindr
30th-March-2005, 11:49 PM
Hmmm, aren't the real elite those that stay in the same venue *because* they're the big fish in a small pond :)

Surely those that are humble enough to realise that they aren't experts are the ones that try and find out more information on the topic -- by thinking, researching, practising (surely an elitist practice :devil: ), or even going to a different class.

I assume that any teacher on a topic knows something about it -- but not everything. And they probably won't be able to teach me everything they know. And *I* probably won't learn everything that they teach me! So, I go to as many different teachers as possible as often as I can to try and learn as much as I can. And if I want to learn to dance, rather than simply do a single style, I might even go to non-MJ classes :)

SpinDr.

Gadget
30th-March-2005, 11:58 PM
I know you use qualifiers, but I don't think that justifies your use of strawmen. Apperance and perception - I very much doubt that there is a plague of "eliteism" sweeping venues that the 'elite' decend uppon.
People sit with their friends, and dance with them. These friendships have developed over months of dancing and shared (dancing) experiances. These people have developed together. A new person on the scene looks over and sees a gaggle of good dancers all talking to each other and dancing with each other. To them, this may appear as elitist. Untill they get to dance with them or be welcomed into that circle, it looks like a clique.
It's like taxi-dancers: naturally, they all are decent dancers, have enthusiasm, like to share experiances with each other and the teacher, etc. so they tend to congregate - off duty or on. This is even more clique like because they even have badges and belong to a sect within the MJ arena.

As I say - Apperance and perception. Untill you have a framework to relate it to and get to know the 'social rules', it will appear intimidating and daunting to approach these groups, let alone asking any one of them for a dance. (That's the way it would appear to me anyway)


I think there is a legitimate concern that the elites will end up completely deserting the normal MJ nights,Why? Is there less 'stimulation' for them? are they getting 'board' with teaching the same things again and again to the next set of newcomers?

Gadget
31st-March-2005, 12:27 AM
And if I want to learn to dance, rather than simply do a single style, I might even go to non-MJ classes :)
Why when you can learn them all within MJ? :confused: {:rofl:}

MartinHarper
31st-March-2005, 12:48 AM
Locally, there are a variety of venues, hosting a variety of forms of dance.
At some venues, it's essentially impossible for someone new to go there, sit on the sidelines, and never get asked to dance.
At other venues, this is entirely possible, and indeed almost routine.

Locally, folks call the first type of venue "friendly", and the second type of venue "cliquey". Those folks who prefer the "friendly" type of venue choose where to dance accordingly. This seems entirely sensible to me.

bigdjiver
31st-March-2005, 01:31 AM
...There's nothing in choosing one venue over another that's elitist - anyone can choose the same venues if they want.If I find myself arguing with a rock, I cannot blame the rock.

In my book if someone deliberately passes their local venue to go to another because it is occupied by a better class of dancer, that is an elitist - with no hint of condemnation - action. Anybody is free to make that choice. I have done it.

It is very rare for a know- nothing beginner to go anywhere but their nearest known venue, or one frequented by a friend.

There may be just as many, or even a few more, beginners at the "elite" venue, but the ratio gods to "uninspiring" is far higher. Once again you are making a totally fraudulent argument.


I first went to Hipsters when I found Nigel's class really difficult, and if I absorbed 5% of what Amir taught I came away feeling a real sense of achievement. No one made me feel unwelcome at any time, although when I crashed obliviously through the breaks I got some funny looks. which should be the newcomer reception everywhere.


The only difference between me and the beginners that you were referring to is that I didn't sit on the sidelines - I got off my backside and got stuck in. Once again you misrepresent my posting. Those beginners were all ladies. Those ladies were looking at three ladies who had done it before that were standing there "gagging for it", but unasked, with all the available men, except me, obviously preferring to be sitting down chatting. I, of course, did not wait to be asked.


Making snide comments like this is approaching my definition of 'nasty'. I note that you resorted to a snide remark rather than actually answering the question.Now I am getting a lecture on "snide" from someone who calls other dancers "uninspiring". I bow to your expertise. (I can do snide :grin: )



Can you not countenance the possibility that people less altruistic than yourself could get bored dancing exclusively with people that grip, yank, bounce, treat the music like a metronome, fail to follow (or lead, obviously), and aren't interested in that appallingly elitist pursuit, getting better at their dancing?I know it. That is why I try to persuade not to grip, yank or fail to follow. I try to help them be less boring. If they are not interested in getting better I do not ask them.


What is so awful about the possibility of going somewhere else, discovering lots of cool new things, a fresh inspiration and enthusiasm, Nothing at all, people should, and will do this. I have never said that they should not.


and then coming back reinvigorated and being much more of a pleasure to dance with than one was before? :confused:they are not quite so good at coming back though ... :sad: Why should they? The scene is better where they are. There is no civil obligation to be altruistic, or to do anything but enjoy yourself to the max.

The point I am making is that this perfectly natural and acceptable behaviour has the effect of concentrating talent, which drives the standards at the top to ever higher levels, but may be depriving the roots.


So not only have these people spent huge amounts of time, money and effort getting to where they are, and retain a care for those coming up behind, but you expect them to seek you out as well? No. More misrepresentation.


That's not reasonable in the world I inhabit - if I want help from the elite, and they're prepared to give it, I go to them; I don't expect them to hang out where I am.[/ A few lines ago you had the elite returing to their roots bearing their bounty.


A fact of life is that people have a better time if they go out and get what they want rather than hoping it will come to them.I have never said different.


Modern Jive is no exception. Those who fail to recognise this and act on it will always be amongst the wallflowers, whinging about how no one ever asks them to dance and how elitist and cliquey it all is.Those that do not recognise it will be amongst the first-timers.


Sad really, they'd have such a better time if they just dived in. :flower:With me they get pushed in. Some of them appear to have a better time.

For the confused: I want as many people as possible to share our joy. I believe that the Ceroc Model, where people go on workshops and breaks to improve, yet, hopefully, still dance at their local venues is the one that will see MJ continue to prosper and grow. Hopefully our teachers will also seek out the tuition of the best and bring it back to our local venues.
Super-venues will arise naturally, and will bring some obvious immediate benefits to the scene, but I believe that any trend in this direction will, in the long run, damage the future of the dance as a whole. Mummy tree grows and deprives her babies of water and sunlight.
I think that ballroom went through this process, and possibly line-dance has, a boom, and then decline, scenario.

I not responding to any more of ChrisA's posts. If anybody wants to believe his versions of my opinions, rather than what I have written, so be it. If I argue with a rock, I cannot blame the rock.

ChrisA
31st-March-2005, 08:51 AM
I not responding to any more of ChrisA's posts.
I'm delighted to hear this. Just because you don't agree with my arguments, you've become progressively more and more insulting, accusing me of a closed mentality (the rock analogy), and using words like 'fraudulent', and 'misrepresent'. It may be that I've misunderstood your arguments, but I have certainly not intentionally misrepresented them, and I have not insulted you, nor resorted to cheap snide shots.

I was certainly not being snide when I referred to people that bounce, grip, yank, etc, as uninspiring. If you don't like dancing like that, I defy anyone to find dancing with such people inspiring.

I suppose I wouldn't be the first one with whom you've indulged in progressively angrier debate, where you constantly throw around accusations of misrepresentation when you don't like people's responses.

Maybe you're the one misrepresenting your own arguments, if they're so easily misunderstood.

Anyway, in case you change your mind, and return to the debate:

You've failed to explain why


if someone deliberately passes their local venue to go to another because it is occupied by a better class of dancer, that is an elitist action.
Even by the definition you cited:



elitism: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority

I can't see why going to one venue rather than another is elitist - anyone is free to go to the same venues.



they are not quite so good at coming back though ... :sad: Why should they? The scene is better where they are. There is no civil obligation to be altruistic, or to do anything but enjoy yourself to the max.

But this is simply wrong.

The people we're talking about here dance a lot more often than average. They go to the venues that tend to have a higher proportion of good dancers as well as the ones that don't - certainly around London, anyway, which is mostly what I know about.

So there is no concentration of talent depriving the roots.



For the confused: I want as many people as possible to share our joy. I believe that the Ceroc Model, where people go on workshops and breaks to improve, yet, hopefully, still dance at their local venues is the one that will see MJ continue to prosper and grow. Hopefully our teachers will also seek out the tuition of the best and bring it back to our local venues.

Well this is a lovely ideal. But as Dave F has pointed out, if any venues have historically been elitist (maybe things are changing), it's been the local ones:



In fact, I see almost the complete opposite - go to the 'elite' venues, and people will actually teach you the 'secret stuff' - you know, like frame, connection, musicality, how to move well, or do drops and lifts properly. Go to your typical MJ venue, and you have a few people who can do these things well and everyone else wondering "how do they know how to do that when it's never taught?".




Super-venues will arise naturally, and will bring some obvious immediate benefits to the scene, but I believe that any trend in this direction will, in the long run, damage the future of the dance as a whole. Mummy tree grows and deprives her babies of water and sunlight.

I even agree with you that theoretically there is a risk of this, but in practice, I see no evidence of it happening, and emphasising the theoretical risk creates fears where there should be none.

Even Hipsters, which a year ago might have fitted your definition of a super-venue, seems to be in something of a decline at the moment. Numbers on Tuesdays are well down, and even Nigel's class that used to pack out the hall was very small on Tuesday.

Ironically, someone suggested to me that it's the ballroom and latin teaching at Ashtons (a Ceroc venue) that is sucking people away from Hipsters... I don't know if that's true, but it would be very funny if it were.



I think that ballroom went through this process, and possibly line-dance has, a boom, and then decline, scenario.

I think it's far too superficial to blame these declines on a concentration of good dancers depriving the roots. I can't speak for Line Dancing - Bob's comment was that the beginners class was just too difficult to attract new blood, which sounds like an error of local judgement rather than a policy of elitism.

And ballroom is less popular amongst the young these days mostly because the music is so old-fashioned, and the dancers are perceived to be so too (and even older than the typical MJ crowd), so the pool of new blood that would still be interested in ballroom is intrinsically smaller. Strictly Come Dancing my yet change that, of course.

If anything causes a long term decline in MJ it won't be a concentration of good dancers somewhere other than the local venues - it'll be the same sort of thing as in Ballroom. Already, the very best and most interpretable music for MJ is often not the current chart stuff, and the slower R&B that is so prevalent at the moment is not very suitable for MJ.

Enter WCS, stage left... Cat's class on Tuesday was pretty packed :D In fact, on numbers alone, she should have had the upper hall and Nigel the lower one. How things change, huh?

MartinHarper
31st-March-2005, 09:27 AM
Using words like 'fraudulent', and 'misrepresent'

I think your occupation of the moral high ground here would be more successful if you hadn't used words like 'snide' and 'nasty' earlier in the thread.

ChrisA
31st-March-2005, 09:51 AM
I think your occupation of the moral high ground here would be more successful if you hadn't used words like 'snide' and 'nasty' earlier in the thread.
I'm not trying to occupy any moral high ground. I'm just trying to participate in a debate, concentrating on the issues without nastiness. If I think someone is resorting to snide comments and cheap shots then I may draw attention to it. I've been accused of being a rock, making fraudulent (ie intentional) misrepresentations of what has been posted, and been accused of being snide when I was just describing some dances.

It's surely not that surprising that I make a comment.

I'd prefer to continue the debate, and get to the bottom of all these accusations of elitism, than indulge in nastiness.

But if people resort to insults when they're failing to get their point across, then that's something outside my control.

David Franklin
31st-March-2005, 10:37 AM
Apperance and perception. ~snip~ A new person on the scene looks over and sees a gaggle of good dancers all talking to each other and dancing with each other. To them, this may appear as elitist. But this is very different from what you said before, when you said the intent was to dance exclusively with other elite dancers. What you describe above can be a problem - but as you say, it's more one of perception rather than reality. In fact a difference I see in the 'elite' venues is that a lot more of the regulars are able and ready to help newcomers (because the %age of taxis/teachers is so high).

As for cliques - most every venue you go to has cliques - when I went back to my regular Ceroc venue after a year or two, it felt very cliquey too. But I don't think that's the same thing as elitism at all - it's just social networking in action...


I think there is a legitimate concern that the elites will end up completely deserting the normal MJ nights,
Why? Is there less 'stimulation' for them? are they getting 'board' with teaching the same things again and again to the next set of newcomers?No, you misunderstood me here. Simply put, if they are at an 'elite' venue, they are obviously NOT at a 'normal' venue (barring quantum effects, anyhow :wink: ). This probably isn't a good thing for the normal venue.

Feelingpink
31st-March-2005, 10:50 AM
Rules for the Really Good (RG)

1. Thou must not gather with other RG dancers on the sidelines, turning one's back on the dance floor, because this could be seen to be elitist.

2. Thou must go to all venues, no matter the quality of dance.

3. Thou must not dance with other RG dancers, because this could be seen to be elitist. Instead, thou must only dance with non-RG dancers.

4. Thou must not be on the Ceroc Scotland website, because this could seen to be type of club and therefore elitist.

5. If thou insists on trying to improve thy dancing, this shall be done in secret so that no non-RG dancers could feel excluded or inferior.



Rules for All Others (AO)

1. Thou shall sit on one's backside and wait for the rest of the world come to you, because it really does owe you a living/er, I mean an MJ heritage.

David Franklin
31st-March-2005, 10:57 AM
Rules for the Really Good (RG)

1. Thou must not gather with other RG dancers on the sidelines, turning one's back on the dance floor, because this could be seen to be elitist.

2. Thou must go to all venues, no matter the quality of dance.

3. Thou must not dance with other RG dancers, because this could be seen to be elitist. Instead, thou must only dance with non-RG dancers.

4. Thou must not be on the Ceroc Scotland website, because this could seen to be type of club and therefore elitist.

5. If thou insists on trying to improve thy dancing, this shall be done in secret so that no non-RG dancers could feel excluded or inferior.You forgot:

6. If thou insists on trying to improve thy dancing, this shall be not be done in secret, because secret dancing practice is elitist.

{All RG dancers disappear in a puff of logic} :tears:

Yliander
31st-March-2005, 11:15 AM
Rules for the Really Good (RG)

1. Thou must not gather with other RG dancers on the sidelines, turning one's back on the dance floor, because this could be seen to be elitist.

2. Thou must go to all venues, no matter the quality of dance.

3. Thou must not dance with other RG dancers, because this could be seen to be elitist. Instead, thou must only dance with non-RG dancers.

4. Thou must not be on the Ceroc Scotland website, because this could seen to be type of club and therefore elitist.

5. If thou insists on trying to improve thy dancing, this shall be done in secret so that no non-RG dancers could feel excluded or inferior.



Rules for All Others (AO)

1. Thou shall sit on one's backside and wait for the rest of the world come to you, because it really does owe you a living/er, I mean an MJ heritage. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: very clever

Gadget
31st-March-2005, 11:15 AM
But this is very different from what you said before, when you said the intent was to dance exclusively with other elite dancers. From an outside view, "intent" and "perceived intent" are one in the same. If the "elite" dancer {I still dislike that term} does nothing to remove this perception (or worse, does something that looks to confirm it), then everyone else within that 'clique' is tarred with the same brush - rightly or wrongly.


No, you misunderstood me here. Simply put, if they are at an 'elite' venue, they are obviously NOT at a 'normal' venue (barring quantum effects, anyhow :wink: ). This probably isn't a good thing for the normal venue.You miss understand me {:na:}: why would they want to be at an 'elite' venue instead of bringing their local venue up to 'elite' status? What drives them away? And if they are of the "eliteism" elite, then it could be considered a good thing for the normal venue.

MartinHarper
31st-March-2005, 04:20 PM
There's a conflation in this thread between observation/reflection, and judgement/regulation.

Whilst all my local venues have some degree of cliquey-ness, some are more cliquey than others, for various reasons. That's an observation. I can reflect on the effects of that - some folks choose which venue to visit partly on that basis.

This does not mean that I wish to embark on a great moral crusade against hotshots. This does not mean that I believe that the denizens of more cliquey venues are evil, nasty, sinful, or whatever. This does not mean that I'll be campaigning for a law against black and white shoes. It's just an observation.

Zebra Woman
31st-March-2005, 04:23 PM
7. Thou must dance to all music, even 'Call On Me' and look exceedingly happy at all times. :rofl:

Andy McGregor
31st-March-2005, 05:37 PM
It's nice to see an agument of the Forum that I'm not part of :whistle:

ChrisA
31st-March-2005, 05:54 PM
It's nice to see an argument of the Forum that I'm not part of :whistle:
Agreed :wink: :whistle:

:flower:

TheTramp
31st-March-2005, 05:57 PM
It's nice to see an agument of the Forum that I'm not part of :whistle:
Oh god. Am I the only one who felt a 'yet' at the end of that statement?? :what:

ChrisA
31st-March-2005, 06:13 PM
Oh god. Am I the only one who felt a 'yet' at the end of that statement?? :what:
Nope.

It's why my post above was so short... I clicked 'submit' and ran for cover. Is it safe to come out yet?

:devil:

El Salsero Gringo
31st-March-2005, 06:17 PM
Nope.

It's why my post above was so short... I clicked 'submit' and ran for cover. Is it safe to come out yet?

:devil:
Defnitely not. We'll let you know when the danger's passed.

Clive Long
31st-March-2005, 06:57 PM
Nope.

It's why my post above was so short... I clicked 'submit' and ran for cover. Is it safe to come out yet?

Defnitely not. We'll let you know when the danger's passed.
He may be gone some time ...

bigdjiver
1st-April-2005, 11:53 PM
...As for cliques - most every venue you go to has cliques - when I went back to my regular Ceroc venue after a year or two, it felt very cliquey too. But I don't think that's the same thing as elitism at all - it's just social networking in action... I agree, this is all normal behaviour. I was going to use the phrase "social dynamics" way back. It is only an immediate problem for the beginners and the venue managers. This may be a case where "rearranging the deckchairs" is actually good management. I am interested in all this stuff. I travelled a long way to go to a struggling venue after hearing "it's the teacher .. No, its the DJ, .. no, its because they don't have a bar..."

The first time I went the teaching was good, the DJ was good, and I have been to packed venues without a bar, so I figured - "None of the above." The atmosphere was dire. The small attendance was spread widely around the room in small huddles.

Full of myself I went back next week and suggested that the problem was the seating layout, and suggested that they rearranged the seating so that they all had to huddle together. I was told that they had thought of that, and that had the first week of trying a new layout with just that aim in mind. However, instead of joining the designed area, the attendees had all opted to find their own space and spread out even further, with worse results.

Anyhow, there had not been time to change tha area again, so we were into week 2 of it. They had also bought some new coloured uplighters and spread them around the walls of the hall.

The transformation was astounding. The attendees had learned that spreading out even more was not good, and this time they congregated as planned. The night went with a real zing.

If cliques are a problem, I suggest managers find an excuse for removing some of the seating, perhaps just for one week. It takes boldness, (insensitivity?) to break into an isolated sitting group to ask for a dance. However, if you are standing next to someone at a social event it is impolite not to interact socially, and what more natural interaction than to ask for a dance.

David Bailey
2nd-April-2005, 12:57 PM
If cliques are a problem, I suggest managers find an excuse for removing some of the seating, perhaps just for one week.
:yeah: Excellent comments, that's clarified things for me, thanks. I never thought about it much, but the arrangement of seating at venues does have a profound impact on the atmosphere.
I used to say I preferred venues with tables and seats, so I could sit down and chat to people. But looking at it now, I think I really didn't - the amount of time I spend sitting down and chatting is pretty low... Having said that, I'm still not a fan of the "school disco" seating-around-the-edge arrangements - I want space around the edge of the floor that I can move around, rather than tripping up over everyone's feet...

Yogi_Bear
3rd-April-2005, 11:21 PM
The seating arrangements will normally have a significant effect. In the first place they can form a physical barrier to getting on and off the dance floor, making it difficult to circulate around the room, approach a prospective partner, extricate oneself from point a to point b , and so on. Secondly the seating can be a profound psychological barrier. Partly because we feel more reluctant to approach someone and ask for a dance if they are sitting than if they are standing, and partly because of the physical difficulty of approaching someone shielded by several hefty tables and chairs. Too much seating can encourage clique formation - at least in how things come across to newcomers or those of a nervousdisposition....
Of course, in the ideal world there would be no seating, everyone would stand... :D

David Bailey
4th-April-2005, 11:02 AM
Hmmm, what is the ideal seating arrangement? From my limited London venue experience, I'm not keen on places like Hipsters and Hammersmith - big halls, few tables at one end and seats around the outside of the dance floor.

I like the arrangements at Ashtons - tables all around the dance floor - but I think that's because there's a distinct non-dance space between the floor and the tables, so there's space to move without doing the "avoid-the-dancers" shuffle...

bigdjiver
4th-April-2005, 01:44 PM
There is no ideal seating arrangement, because everybody wants different things, and different things at different times.

People that love to dance will want to be able to come off the dance floor and have a new partner readily available, or to be easily reached, so seats all around the dance floor are best for them. People who want to spend time chatting and only dance with their friends, or when it suits them, will want to be well away from the dancefloor. People who want to watch whilst they chat will want a natural barrier between them and the floor. A glass screen or trellis works well, a few close tables between them and the floor, with no standing room, is a good compromise.

The venue manager may have different objectives rom the dancers, and may want them to mix and dance. and not want to provide hiding places, or may want the attendees to not dance but consume expensive drinks instead.

Andreas
11th-April-2005, 12:32 PM
We have mentioned it before and I can again confirm that the MJ scene is not anywhere near as rude as the Salsa scene :whistle:

Last night I was at Bar Salsa after a very long time of absence. So I asked the first girl I came across for a dance. She looked at me and asked 'Can you dance? Because I don't want to teach right now.' My slight nod must have been too subtle due to my surprise of such a rude comment that she decided I probably could not dance. And off she walked. I just told here that this was very arrogant and she told me we'd have a dance later. Now this did not make things any better. She had to be a fool (which she obviously is, considering the arrogance) to believe that I would grant her even the hint of a dance.

This was the second most rude turn down I have ever received, and again it was in Salsa. :what:

As we have noted before, really good dancers do not know such arrogance and she too could not dance anywhere near as good as she obviously thought she was. :rolleyes:

Unbelievable. :eek:

David Bailey
11th-April-2005, 01:18 PM
We have mentioned it before and I can again confirm that the MJ scene is not anywhere near as rude as the Salsa scene :whistle:

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Definitely, in spades, especially in the Central London venues. Suburban local venues are more friendly, but still not as social as the average MJ venue.
It's pretty amazing that some salsa dancers take themselves so seriously, considering it's such a relatively easy dance, but I think it's all part of the Latin American thing. And as for the standard of teaching, don't get me started... :mad:



As we have noted before, really good dancers do not know such arrogance and she too could not dance anywhere near as good as she obviously thought she was.
Always the case, isn't it? There are some lovely people and dancers in the salsa scene, but it's much more difficult to pick them out from the crowd. I've been turned down by relative beginners in salsa, it's far too much like a nightclub scene that way. Best revenge is to dance with someone else, in front of them, and show them what they missed out on :)

Andreas
11th-April-2005, 07:51 PM
And as for the standard of teaching, don't get me started... :mad:

me neither :eek:



Best revenge is to dance with someone else, in front of them, and show them what they missed out on :)

Well, I can't be bothered to make that effort but it sort of happens anyway as the dance floor isn't that big :wink:

clevedonboy
12th-April-2005, 09:44 AM
I was disappointed with the apparent attitude of the guys at a venue we visited recently for a dance. Whilst numbers were similar there were a few extra women. It became clear to me that the same women were sat out for much of the night - these were all newish beginners & I danced with most of them at least once as did a friend from my local scene. Many of the local "good" men (a very loose term in this case) spent their time chasing a few "good" women - to me it looked like stalking the way some acted.

It really depresses me to see this sort of attitude - whilst I don't advocate the two wrongs to a make a right attitude, I hope these beginners remember who these "good" men are so they can ignore them when they become good dancers in the future.

ChrisA
12th-April-2005, 10:11 AM
Best revenge is to dance with someone else, in front of them, and show them what they missed out on :)

I hope these beginners remember who these "good" men are so they can ignore them when they become good dancers in the future.
What's all this talk of revenge? I can't see it's going to help anyone.

I wish people just got on with their own dancing, concentrated on making their partners feel good on the dance floor, and on having a good night themselves...

... rather than wasting any time trying to work out how other people should be made to feel bad.

:tears:

It simply is not possible to know, from watching people at one venue on one night, whether or how much they give back to MJ in general by making an effort to dance with beginners, or anything else. You don't know whether they taxi somewhere else, or just chose to make that night a "for themselves" night.

And if someone watches for long enough to gather enough evidence to make a judgement, then I'd contend they have too much time on their hands, and should dance more. :flower:

clevedonboy
12th-April-2005, 10:37 AM
It simply is not possible to know, from watching people at one venue on one night, whether or how much they give back to MJ in general by making an effort to dance with beginners, or anything else. You don't know whether they taxi somewhere else, or just chose to make that night a "for themselves" night.


I can agree with that for a small number of men but with a full venue for all men to have a valid reason for not dancing with beginners is implausible. It's not something I have been as struck by anywhere else - I've seen individual "strangers" have difficulties to get a partner, but not a largish number have to sit out large parts of the night.

FYI I wasn't working out how to make people feel bad during the evening- I was concerned at how bad those ladies may have been feeling as the same few were selected time and again leaving them left on the side.

ChrisA
12th-April-2005, 10:44 AM
FYI I wasn't working out how to make people feel bad during the evening
I didn't say you were.

But when you said:


I hope these beginners remember who these "good" men are so they can ignore them when they become good dancers in the future.
.. then you are explicitly suggesting that people remember who turned them down or didn't ask them to dance for long enough to take revenge on them by doing the same thing to them - presumably to make them feel bad in the future.

It's not what the MJ world needs. As you said, two wrongs don't make a right, so I don't know why you suggested it.

David Bailey
12th-April-2005, 10:52 AM
I was disappointed with the apparent attitude of the guys at a venue we visited recently for a dance.
You have an implicit assumption there, that advanced guys have a duty to seek out beginners to dance with - I don't agree with that.

Advanced and beginners both pay money to go out and enjoy themselves, and advanced dancers aren't unpaid teachers; in fact, that's what Ceroc has Taxi dancers for. So dancers shouldn't feel guilty about dancing with people they want to dance with; and if you try to impose a choice, they just won't come to the venue any more.

Note: I'm certainly not advocating that advanced dancers should not dance with pretty much anyone who asks them, at whatever level. And certainly it's nice if advanced dancers do take the time to help out beginners. However, I don't think they should have an obligation to do so.


What's all this talk of revenge? I can't see it's going to help anyone.
Hey, I'm just nasty that way - but I was talking about salsa, which in many London venues is a nasty scene, not lovely and cuddly like all MJ venues :flower:

MartinHarper
12th-April-2005, 11:21 AM
It's nice if advanced dancers do take the time to help out beginners. However, I don't think they should have an obligation to do so..

People are free to choose whether or not to be nice, provided that they are willing to accept the consequences of that choice.

clevedonboy
12th-April-2005, 11:37 AM
You have an implicit assumption there, that advanced guys have a duty to seek out beginners to dance with - I don't agree with that.


Your assumption was that I was talking about advanced dancers - I was talking about most of the gents in the room, definitely not the advanced dancers alone.

I certainly agree that people are free to choose to dance with whoever, I was saddened to see how few chose to dance with these particular ladies.

DianaS
13th-April-2005, 02:49 PM
Bit of a dilemna here. I was asked for a dance the other night by somone I have never seen before who strode across the room making a direct bee line for me so I spotted him coming.

The dance was a slow one and would lend itself to UCP stuff which I'm not too confortable with (do you know the number don't know its name but is punctuated with long breaks and meaningful lyrics such as "fi-re")

So I avoided eye contact like mad, looked at the floor and hoped he would ask one of the women on either side of me. When I finally saw his shoes in front of me I looked up and accepted the dance.

Half was through he blew a break I laughed and we enjoyed the dance. But I would rather have had that dance with him, as the first dance ever.

What would you have done??? :blush:

bigdjiver
13th-April-2005, 03:35 PM
I would like someone to teach the DJ's how to talk very, very occasionally, and pre-announce the more specialised tracks. E.G. as one track starts say after this "****" and then we get bluesy with "Fire". For me, too often "Fire" has to be a lukewarm hot-water bottle.

David Bailey
13th-April-2005, 05:26 PM
I would like someone to teach the DJ's how to talk very, very occasionally, and pre-announce the more specialised tracks. E.G. as one track starts say after this "****" and then we get bluesy with "Fire". For me, too often "Fire" has to be a lukewarm hot-water bottle.
I dunno, I'm ambivalent about these voice-over things, I always think it cuts into my dancing time. On the other hand, I can see the advantages of an occasional bit of guidance - "We're now slowing it down a little". Although every time I think of a DJ doing that I imagine a cheesy Smashy-and-Nicey type voiceover... :)

On balance, I think a DJ should generally let the music talk for them.

Lynn
13th-April-2005, 05:38 PM
I dunno, I'm ambivalent about these voice-over things, I always think it cuts into my dancing time. On the other hand, I can see the advantages of an occasional bit of guidance - "We're now slowing it down a little". I remember being at a dance where there were a lot of singles, over 80 people there with about half on the dance floor - the DJ said that and completely cleared the floor for an entire track. :rofl: Not even the couples got up. (He actually announced he was playing several slow songs but wisely gave up after one!). Not an MJ event of course or there would have been some folk getting bluesy!

TheTramp
13th-April-2005, 06:28 PM
I would like someone to teach the DJ's how to talk very, very occasionally, and pre-announce the more specialised tracks. E.G. as one track starts say after this "****" and then we get bluesy with "Fire". For me, too often "Fire" has to be a lukewarm hot-water bottle.
Nope. I really dislike it when the DJs are talking. It all averages out in the end (getting the right dances with the right people I mean). But the DJ talking feels like an interruption to me....

Lory
13th-April-2005, 06:30 PM
I really dislike it when the DJs are talking.
:yeah:

Little Monkey
13th-April-2005, 06:49 PM
Nope. I really dislike it when the DJs are talking. It all averages out in the end (getting the right dances with the right people I mean). But the DJ talking feels like an interruption to me....

:yeah:

Hear, hear. So just keep yer mouth shut, Trampy! :hug:

LM

bigdjiver
13th-April-2005, 08:56 PM
I had in mind the DJ saying less than 50 words all evening as voice-over and people think that would be too much ? I should assume that it has been tried and things are the way they are because it did not work. As for the idea of showing the next five tracks, the DJ's I know read the floor and often do not know which track they are plating next until the last few bars. I knew I was asking a lot for them to look two tracks ahead. They only set up that situation when they want to take a break, or dance themselves. Of course, when they want to dance themselves is when they are more likely to play those "special" tracks.

I think I have just answered my own question! When I see a DJ heading for the dance floor in future I am going to head for a special partner.

Yogi_Bear
14th-April-2005, 08:19 PM
Bit of a dilemna here. I was asked for a dance the other night by somone I have never seen before who strode across the room making a direct bee line for me so I spotted him coming.

The dance was a slow one and would lend itself to UCP stuff which I'm not too confortable with (do you know the number don't know its name but is punctuated with long breaks and meaningful lyrics such as "fi-re")

So I avoided eye contact like mad, looked at the floor and hoped he would ask one of the women on either side of me. When I finally saw his shoes in front of me I looked up and accepted the dance.

Half was through he blew a break I laughed and we enjoyed the dance. But I would rather have had that dance with him, as the first dance ever.

What would you have done??? :blush:This happened to me a couple of months ago - Stevenage, maybe - I asked someone for a dance, and she explained that she didn't normally dance to that song (Fire) with someone she didn't know, but agreed to give it a go anyway. In the end I think everything went reasonably well. :waycool:
As has been said, if you don't go for it from time to time, you could be missing out on some of your best dances :tears:

David Bailey
14th-April-2005, 08:52 PM
As has been said, if you don't go for it from time to time, you could be missing out on some of your best dances :tears:
I'd never considered any equivalence between track choice and how well I know my partner. Obviously, the moves I do in a particular track depend on factors such as how well I know my partner, what their style is, what I'm confident about doing, and others. But the choice of partner, no.

OK, I wouldn't ask someone to dance to that track unless I at least knew they could do it justice, but I might have simply seen that person dance well to another track. And remember, men's egos are fragile things - I'd be gutted if I were refused on the basis of "I don't know you well enough" :tears:

Which is a long-winded way of saying :yeah:

Zebra Woman
14th-April-2005, 09:35 PM
This happened to me a couple of months ago - Stevenage, maybe - I asked someone for a dance, and she explained that she didn't normally dance to that song (Fire) with someone she didn't know, but agreed to give it a go anyway. In the end I think everything went reasonably well. :waycool:
As has been said, if you don't go for it from time to time, you could be missing out on some of your best dances :tears:


Oooh errrr....... :sick:

I was at Stevenage a couple of months ago, and A guy I had never danced with before asked me to dance to Fire...and I said all that... :blush: :blush:

We danced to Fire after a short hesitation, and it was excellent, really musical and we chatted afterwards about Lindy , Tango and Southport a bit....I was undercover that night (no stripes).

You are absolutely right sometimes you need to go for it. I learned my lesson there. It was a great dance and I'm so glad I didn't miss it. BTW 'Fire' is the only song I would have said that to , and not anymore.

Was it you Yogi???

Am I forgiven?

Alison :flower:

angelique
15th-April-2005, 12:29 AM
Last night I was at Bar Salsa after a very long time of absence. So I asked the first girl I came across for a dance. She looked at me and asked 'Can you dance? Because I don't want to teach right now.' My slight nod must have been too subtle due to my surprise of such a rude comment that she decided I probably could not dance. And off she walked. I just told here that this was very arrogant and she told me we'd have a dance later. Now this did not make things any better. She had to be a fool (which she obviously is, considering the arrogance) to believe that I would grant her even the hint of a dance.

This was the second most rude turn down I have ever received, and again it was in Salsa. :what:

Probably a bit way off track here but feel the need to share a "traumatic" event with you guys .
Was at one of my fave venues a couple of weeks ago and I asked one of the regulars there for a dance.
He did the quick "look you up and down" and then said something to me..
Not getting what he said, I said pardon and he replied " NO THANKS" and walked away :tears: :angry:

I just stood there flabbergatsed at such rudeness and when pointing him out to a few mates they made it even worse by saying "surely not, he's lovely" !!!! :really:

Talk about being gutted....I am still carrying that feeling with me now! :mad:

Lynn
15th-April-2005, 12:47 AM
This happened to me a couple of months ago - Stevenage, maybe - I asked someone for a dance, and she explained that she didn't normally dance to that song (Fire) with someone she didn't know, but agreed to give it a go anyway. In the end I think everything went reasonably well. :waycool:
As has been said, if you don't go for it from time to time, you could be missing out on some of your best dances :tears: I never really have thought of it like that, if I'm asked up, I get up and dance and if the track asks for more bluesy moves, then I go with the music and the lead, even with a total stranger. :blush: Maybe I should be a bit more reserved!

Gadget
15th-April-2005, 08:29 AM
Talk about being gutted....I am still carrying that feeling with me now! :mad::hug::hug:

David Bailey
15th-April-2005, 09:01 AM
Oooh errrr....... :sick:
Hah! Exposed! :)

Oh yes, and :yeah: - just goes to show, you should always take a chance.

David Bailey
15th-April-2005, 09:11 AM
Probably a bit way off track here but feel the need to share a "traumatic" event with you guys...

:hug: :hug: :hug: What a scuzzball. If it's any consolation, it happens to all of us.

Even if you do refuse a dance, and occasionally it happens, there's an etiquette to it:
- Give a reason (e.g. tired, shoulder hurts, hate music), preferably a true one :)
- Don't dance with someone else ten seconds later
- Ideally, ask the person to dance later on
- etc.

Andreas
15th-April-2005, 12:43 PM
Probably a bit way off track here but feel the need to share a "traumatic" event with you guys .
Was at one of my fave venues a couple of weeks ago and I asked one of the regulars there for a dance.
He did the quick "look you up and down" and then said something to me..
Not getting what he said, I said pardon and he replied " NO THANKS" and walked away :tears: :angry:

I just stood there flabbergatsed at such rudeness and when pointing him out to a few mates they made it even worse by saying "surely not, he's lovely" !!!! :really:

Talk about being gutted....I am still carrying that feeling with me now! :mad:


Crickey! That sucks indeed! :flower:

Andreas
15th-April-2005, 12:45 PM
Oooh errrr....... :sick:

I was at Stevenage a couple of months ago, and A guy I had never danced with before asked me to dance to Fire...and I said all that... :blush: :blush:

We danced to Fire after a short hesitation, and it was excellent, really musical and we chatted afterwards about Lindy , Tango and Southport a bit....I was undercover that night (no stripes).

You are absolutely right sometimes you need to go for it. I learned my lesson there. It was a great dance and I'm so glad I didn't miss it. BTW 'Fire' is the only song I would have said that to , and not anymore.

Was it you Yogi???

Am I forgiven?

Alison :flower:

:rofl: :rofl: where is that icon with the whip when you need it!

Lou
15th-April-2005, 12:46 PM
:rofl: :rofl: where is that icon with the whip when you need it!
http://leroc.net/images/actionsmiley039_01.gif

But don't wear it out.... ;)

ChrisA
15th-April-2005, 01:15 PM
- Give a reason (e.g. tired, shoulder hurts, hate music), preferably a true one :)
- Don't dance with someone else ten seconds later
- Ideally, ask the person to dance later on
- etc.
Absolutely. But to give the other side of the coin, I turned down a dance at Hipsters the other night, for all genuine reasons... I'm nursing a nasty tendon injury at the moment which is drastically curtailing comps practice, and I'm trying to get it better... so I'm not dancing to any fast tracks (it was pretty much the only really fast track of the night) with anyone whose dancing I don't know extremely well (which in practice restricts it to one person :D ), because any yanking is really painful.

Anyway, I did all that David suggested (except didn't get a chance to ask her later), but she wasn't having any of it - I can only describe her reaction as a dramatic flouncing off. :eek:

Some people seem to insist on reacting badly to a refusal, no matter how apologetically and genuinely it's given.

But I totally agree, the 'look up and down and say no thanks' in isolation can feel very crushing. :hug: :flower:

angelique
15th-April-2005, 09:33 PM
Awwwwwwwwwww big hugs to everyone who has given support on here...it's helped loads!! :kiss: :hug:
However still feel paranoid although trying to contain it.....keep it in conext...put it into the box it needs to be in blah blah blah :wink:

Should anyone know of people out to refuse me, please P.M. me??? Thanks

:rofl: :rofl: :wink:

jivecat
16th-April-2005, 10:48 AM
Talk about being gutted....I am still carrying that feeling with me now! :mad:

Yes, it's a horrible feeling. Hope you are feeling better.

I have had several experiences recently of being turned down for a dance that have upset me to such a degree that I don't really want to dance any more. I know it's out of proportion but it just seems to have caught me on the raw. I'm going dancing tonight for the first time in nearly 2 weeks, and I'm actually scared. I just feel that all my confidence has evaporated, and I know that's a really bad attitude to take along to Ceroc........

Usually I accept that, for ladies at any rate, a fair amount of being proactive is necessary to get the dances they want, when they want them and I am normally happy to do whatever it takes. And I'm happy to dance with strangers. But at the moment, I'm not coping well with knockbacks.

I almost never turn anyone down, unless maybe, I have already danced with them 2 or 3 times and feel that I have given them a fair crack of the whip. (Uh oh, where's that icon?) Although if I really, really, really enjoyed dancing with them they could have as many as they liked, of course. So whatever the reason given, it's hard not to take it personally. Obviously if the reason given is personal injury, then it must be accepted, though it does make me wonder why someone is out dancing at all if they are in such a delicate condition. But if the reason given is music, or t-shirt changing, then it is hard not to feel fobbed off, unless, as David James points out, they have the good manners to offer a dance later.

jivecat
16th-April-2005, 10:55 AM
Some people seem to insist on reacting badly to a refusal, no matter how apologetically and genuinely it's given.

But I totally agree, the 'look up and down and say no thanks' in isolation can feel very crushing. :hug: :flower:

Well, as you say, it's the ones that aren't given apologetically or genuinely that really upset people. And they seem to be on the increase, and getting ruder. Or is that just my insecure imagination?

ChrisA
16th-April-2005, 11:26 AM
Obviously if the reason given is personal injury, then it must be accepted, though it does make me wonder why someone is out dancing at all if they are in such a delicate condition.

Two simple reasons:

1. I love dancing. If I stopped for long enough for it to heal properly I'd probably be out for weeks if not months. :tears:

2. If I'm not yanked about, it doesn't get any worse (and is actually getting better very slowly). So should I deprive myself of the pleasure of dancing with people that don't yank me about (and, hopefully, their pleasure in dancing with me) for the sake of the sensitivities of those that do?

David Bailey
16th-April-2005, 12:23 PM
Anyway, I did all that David suggested (except didn't get a chance to ask her later), but she wasn't having any of it - I can only describe her reaction as a dramatic flouncing off. :eek:
Well, in that you didn't have much of a chance to follow-up, what can you do? Maybe ask her next time if you're up to it, or if you want to, but it sounds like someone with an atitude. A follow-up dance, or even a chat, IMO, shows very clearly that there's nothing personal in any rejection. Was this a relatively new dancer? Or maybe she had designs on you ... :)

David Bailey
16th-April-2005, 12:29 PM
Yes, it's a horrible feeling. Hope you are feeling better.
Obviously if the reason given is personal injury, then it must be accepted, though it does make me wonder why someone is out dancing at all if they are in such a delicate condition.

Good point. I had a shoulder problem a few months ago - in my case, stupidity can't be ruled out. Injuries need time to heal, I know that, but I guess this demonstrates how addicted I am.



But if the reason given is music, or t-shirt changing, then it is hard not to feel fobbed off.
Oops, I've used both of these, albeit admittedly with a dripping T-shirt as evidence (ewww), or to some weird Bobgadjet track (:) ). And I'll confess I don't always follow-up... :blush:

MartinHarper
16th-April-2005, 03:07 PM
For ladies at any rate, a fair amount of being proactive is necessary to get the dances they want, when they want them.

FWIW, this is also true for guys.

Swinging bee
16th-April-2005, 03:53 PM
As I read the above from snoopy, I thought that this question deserved its own thread...
I tend to agree with Snoopy in that, up to a point, it is good etiquette to ask all the ladies in a group for a dance if possible :nice:
In fact, ideally, we would dance with everyone present on the night (in an ideal world :what: :nice: )

So girls, how do you feel? Do you feel slighted if your friend (s) get asked and you do not, do you not notice, or are you just too busy doing the asking to pay attention to such nonsense ??? :really:

I wonder... :devil:

Franck.
Asking for a Dance

"May I have this dance?" "Would you like to dance?"

It believed that traditionally the man is expected to ask the women to dance. This is merely derived from observation rather than by knowing the rules on the subject.
When asking for a dance do not ask from a distance as it can make for an awkward moment if a number of people think they have been asked to dance, and you have to tell them that they were not.
Make eye contact when asking for a dance. If your partner says yes, smile, offer your hand, and escort him or her onto the dance floor and into dance position.
If someone is sitting closely with their significant other, talking quietly to each other, then it is probably not a good time to ask him/her for a dance.
If someone appears to be in a normal conversation with another, approach, standing close and interested. When your intended partner makes eye contact, smile and ask "Dance?"
If two men ask the same lady to dance at the same moment, neither men should stand down, the lady must choose one or the other. It is often most appropriate to offer the next dance to the man who was turned down. The same applies when the genders are reversed.
Accepting a dance

Yes, thank you, I'd love to dance.

When someone asks you to dance, your response should nearly always be, "Yes, thank you, I'd love to." It is never acceptable to say "no" to one person and then "yes" to another, "better" dancer on the same dance. Few experiences are more demoralizing to the rejected partner, and your three minutes of fun are not worth ruining someone else's entire evening.
When and how to decline a dance

Dance etiquette requires that one should avoid declining a dance unless you absolutely have to. However, a social dance is not an endurance marathon where you must dance until you drop.

You can decline a dance if you need to take a rest. You must be consistent, if you tell one person you are too tired to dance, you should not then dance with another.
You can also decline a dance if you have promised the dance to someone else.
When declining a dance, one should ask for a later dance instead: "No, thank you, I'm taking a break. Would you like to do another dance later?"
Being declined can be difficult, especially for beginners and shy individuals, who may be discouraged from social dancing.
Etiquette allows an out from the rules so that one does not become oppressed by the inconsiderate. If such a situation arises one is allowed to say: "No, thank you." without further explanation.
Being declined

When turned down, one should at first take it at face-value. When a dance can last for hours, there are not many people who can keep dancing non-stop and therefore will need to take a break from time to time.

Increasing your chances of being asked for a dance

The most effective way of becoming popular in the dancing circles is to be a good dancer so practice to improve your dancing. You don't need to know a hundreds of moves but must have a good lead/folow.

Dancers are more likely to ask those they see dancing on the floor. Do your best to get the first few dances once you arrive at a dance event; it gets easier afterwards.
Dancers look for dancers: At a dance event where people don't know each other, you will see experienced dancers scan the crowd, not looking at faces, but looking at the feet! Making an investment in a pair of dance shoes is a sign of enthusiasm for dancing. Dancers know that, so wearing dance shoes will increase your chances of getting asked to dance.
Dancers seek those who say "yes". Being turned down for a dance is never fun. If you decline dances, or if you look hard to please, your chances of being asked to dance will be reduced.
Stand close to the edge of the dance floor. Watch the dancers on the floor; tap your foot to the music. Smile. Dancers will be attracted to you if they feel you want to dance.
A great way to increase one's circle of dance acquaintances is to ask beginners to dance - today's beginners will be the good dancers of tomorrow, so be nice to them and dance with them.

angelique
16th-April-2005, 04:34 PM
[QUOTE=jivecat]Yes, it's a horrible feeling. Hope you are feeling better.

I have had several experiences recently of being turned down for a dance that have upset me to such a degree that I don't really want to dance any more. I know it's out of proportion but it just seems to have caught me on the raw. I'm going dancing tonight for the first time in nearly 2 weeks, and I'm actually scared. I just feel that all my confidence has evaporated, and I know that's a really bad attitude to take along to Ceroc........

Usually I accept that, for ladies at any rate, a fair amount of being proactive is necessary to get the dances they want, when they want them and I am normally happy to do whatever it takes. And I'm happy to dance with strangers. But at the moment, I'm not coping well with knockbacks.


:yeah: :hug: :hug:

Know exactly what you are saying!
Don't know where you dance Jivecat but if we ever meet, I'll dance with ya! Used to be a taxi dancer so have a very rough idea of how to lead even if only a limited range of mainly beginner moves ! But you know what? I'd be delighted and I'd smile and make eye contact and thoroughly enjoy it! Wouldn't that be great?? :clap:

DavidY
16th-April-2005, 05:08 PM
Don't know where you dance Jivecat but if we ever meet, I'll dance with ya!I believe you live fairly close to each other so that could easily happen. :wink:

jivecat
16th-April-2005, 05:09 PM
I never really have thought of it like that, if I'm asked up, I get up and dance and if the track asks for more bluesy moves, then I go with the music and the lead, even with a total stranger. :blush: Maybe I should be a bit more reserved!

Naahh! Go with it!

Gadget
17th-April-2005, 12:28 AM
:D Nice list and good guidelines, however I would recommend that you try not to use "never" or "always" or define "this is the way it should be done" - there will always be exceptions to just about everything said in it...{<- with the exclusion of this one perhaps :wink:}
To pick a few out...

When asking for a dance do not ask from a distance as it can make for an awkward moment if a number of people think they have been asked to dance, and you have to tell them that they were not. except it's quicker and you get on the dance floor sooner, stake your claim of floor space and get more time dancing: you can always go back and grab the next person who you had to decline.

If someone appears to be in a normal conversation with another, approach, standing close and interested. When your intended partner makes eye contact, smile and ask "Dance?" It is also legitemate to touch a shoulder or distract them enough to ask for a dance instead of just standing close and waiting to be noticed - dragging a prospective partner onto the dance floor without giving them a chance to wrap up the conversation is a nono however.

If two men ask the same lady to dance at the same moment, neither men should stand down, the lady must choose one or the other.It's very rarely exactly synchronous - normally I go by the closest person wins rule unless my partner immediatly expresses a preference. Alternitivly I may pass on the lady to the other lead depending on who they are, what song is being played and what my night has been like up till then.


When someone asks you to dance, your response should nearly always be, "Yes, thank you, I'd love to."A smile and taking the hand also works.

It is never acceptable to say "no" to one person and then "yes" to another, "better" dancer on the same dance....except if you have a sore limb/joint that you are looking after and know that the next person won't strain it even more. {Not my philosophy, but a valid argument}

You can decline a dance if you need to take a rest. You must be consistent, if you tell one person you are too tired to dance, you should not then dance with another....unless you know that they can do blues, is a good dancer and you like the track; they won't tire you even further. Or they have to leave after this track and they are a favourite dancer you haven't danced with yet; after all, you are there to have a good time yourself. Or they don't like/dance to that particular track normally, but a really fabby dancer just asked them.{Not my philosophies, but valid arguments}

When declining a dance, one should ask for a later dance instead: "No, thank you, I'm taking a break. Would you like to do another dance later?" Unless you simply don't want to dance with them for whatever reason.
[/quote]When turned down, one should at first take it at face-value.[/quote]I disagree: one should not take it at all - it should slide off: their loss - find someone else and dance.

Dancers are more likely to ask those they see dancing on the floor. Really? I honestly wouldn't know what the mjority of dancers would look for when selecting their next partner, but I am more likley to ask someone not dancing and who is not just off the floor.

Dancers look for dancers: At a dance event where people don't know each other, you will see experienced dancers scan the crowd, not looking at faces, but looking at the feet! Making an investment in a pair of dance shoes is a sign of enthusiasm for dancing.:what: is this true? (not that buying a pair of shoes shows enthusiasm: the other bit :rolleyes: ) I look at faces and try to remember who I have danced with and who I havn't - those I havn't are more likley to attract my attention.

Dancers seek those who say "yes". Being turned down for a dance is never fun. If you decline dances, or if you look hard to please, your chances of being asked to dance will be reduced. :confused: this I don't get. Someone point out a dancer that looks "hard to please" next time they see me so i know what to look for.

Stand close to the edge of the dance floor. no- don't; especially holding drinks and in a position that can be jostled from the floor. Standing watching and eager to me looks like you are waiting for someone in particular so you can ask them to dance - I would normally pass over someone like that for someone seated.

Dancers will be attracted to you if they feel you want to dance.You are at a dance venue. Call it a hunch, but I assume that you want to dance :rolleyes:

:flower: I don't want to rip everything appart; they were good guidelines - just full of holes and assumptions.

My advice;
Asking for a dance; be polite, smile, do it often.
Accepting a dance; be polite, smile, do it often.
Increasing your chances of being asked for a dance; be polite, smile, do it often. :D

David Bailey
17th-April-2005, 09:36 AM
there will always be exceptions to just about everything said in it...{<- with the exclusion of this one perhaps :wink:}

Where's all these "You wish" icons gone....

(asking from a distance)

except it's quicker and you get on the dance floor sooner, stake your claim of floor space and get more time dancing: you can always go back and grab the next person who you had to decline.

Yeah, but it's also a bit rude - it's much more courteous to ask up close, especially if you don't know the person well. Even if you do know them, it's nice to ask up close and personal I think. So I'd argue for direct asking every time, simply on courtesy grounds.

(attracting attention)


It is also legitemate to touch a shoulder or distract them enough to ask for a dance instead of just standing close and waiting to be noticed

As always, it's judgement - I'd rarely / never interrupt someone in conversation, but it's certainly OK to grab their attention if, for example, they're looking at something else. Usually standing directly in front of their line of sight is enough to grab attention :)


(two dancers going for one partner)


normally I go by the closest person wins rule unless my partner immediatly expresses a preference.

I usually automatically defer to the other person unless the lady expresses an immediate preference for me (need an "I wish" icon now :) ). Also worth noting that this happens both ways, I've been double-tapped on the shoulder a few times, and I usually take the wuss way out of letting the ladies decide the dance order with me...

(rejecting one dancer, then accepting another on the same dance)


...except if you have a sore limb/joint that you are looking after and know that the next person won't strain it even more. {Not my philosophy, but a valid argument}
Dangerous ground - technically it's a valid argument, but I wouldn't like to justify it. Safest to say, if you refuse a dance, sit it out. Again, courtesy.

I agree with other comments about choosing dancers, and shoes - the advice is a little too dogmatic there.



:flower: I don't want to rip everything appart; they were good guidelines - just full of holes and assumptions.

My advice;
Asking for a dance; be polite, smile, do it often.
Accepting a dance; be polite, smile, do it often.
Increasing your chances of being asked for a dance; be polite, smile, do it often. :D

:yeah: :yeah: And nice piece of work there, Swinging Bee, caveats aside.

Lynn
17th-April-2005, 12:08 PM
:confused: this I don't get. Someone point out a dancer that looks "hard to please" next time they see me so i know what to look for. A dancer who tends to refuse dances with the less good dancers? Or who rarely smiles when someone dances with them? Or who gets annoyed if their partner gets a move wrong? I think that would be 'hard to please' and that attitude gets noticed. You don't even have to dance with them to become aware of these things - it can be observed or even commented on by other dancers. I know several guys who won't ask specific women up for some of these reasons, especially the last one and I don't blame them - who wants to dance with someone who clearly gets irritated if a move goes wrong?

My advice;
Asking for a dance; be polite, smile, do it often.
Accepting a dance; be polite, smile, do it often.
Increasing your chances of being asked for a dance; be polite, smile, do it often. :D :grin: A smile goes a long way in expressing how you feel about accepting a dance, during the dance and as a 'thanks' at the end!

Lynn
18th-April-2005, 01:01 AM
Deciding that I needed to overcome the 'being too shy to ask someone up' for a dance I decided to just go for it at a salsa dance. A visiting teacher from England did a 'Dancing on 2' workshop and I decided to ask him up and at a suitable point I did. Of course it was the usual brain going to sleep because I know I'm up with a much better dancer, and I was all over the place, but had a lot of fun.

But... I knew from his attitude when teaching the class and seeing him dance with others, that he would probably say yes and wouldn't worry if I got moves wrong and that was why I asked him. And I was glad I did, as if I hadn't I would have missed out!

Clive Long
18th-April-2005, 09:52 AM
Deciding that I needed to overcome the 'being too shy to ask someone up' for a dance I decided to just go for it at a salsa dance. << snip >> he would probably say yes and wouldn't worry if I got moves wrong and that was why I asked him. And I was glad I did, as if I hadn't I would have missed out!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Go girl !!

Asking at a salsa lesson. From what I have read that was a brave act indeed !! :hug:

Clive

Zuhal
18th-April-2005, 12:44 PM
Salsa

This is causing me some embarassment at the moment.

I can absorb the class and lead it. I can also lead what I learnt the week before but I do not really have sufficient muscle memory to freestyle Salsa.

Thus I get asked to dance by ladies from the rotation who mistakenly think that they are gonna get a good dance only for it all to dissolve after 90 seconds of routine.

Some of these tracks last for 6 minutes plus and I can not maintain the pretence for that long.
Heh maybe I should enter a reality dance show :wink:


Zuhal

spindr
18th-April-2005, 12:53 PM
Salsa

This is causing me some embarassment at the moment.

I can absorb the class and lead it. I can also lead what I learnt the week before but I do not really have sufficient muscle memory to freestyle Salsa.

Thus I get asked to dance by ladies from the rotation who mistakenly think that they are gonna get a good dance only for it all to dissolve after 90 seconds of routine.

Some of these tracks last for 6 minutes plus and I can not maintain the pretence for that long.
Heh maybe I should enter a reality dance show :wink:


I am battling with this a bit at the moment -- the only way that works for me is simply to do as much salsa freestyle as possible -- and just dance through it (I'm sure I probably did this with MJ too, but I've probably blocked out those painful memories now).

Of course, for a six minute track you can probably drop holds and do shines for a while -- which should help reduce any problem.

:devil: If your partner starts looking bored -- lead a couple of double turns -- they'll probably be quite grateful to do some basic moves after that :devil:

SpinDr.

P.S. Now if only I could find a reliable way to work out which is beat 1 and which is beat 5 -- that's what's tripping me up at the moment. Guess it's back to listening to the salsa CD collection again :)

Lynn
18th-April-2005, 01:02 PM
P.S. Now if only I could find a reliable way to work out which is beat 1 and which is beat 5 -- that's what's tripping me up at the moment. Guess it's back to listening to the salsa CD collection again :) Try learning 'on 2' - its lovely and is really easy to hear. (Learnt it this weekend) I'm fortunate in that I seem to just 'hear' the right place without even thinking about it. And getting back on thread :whistle: - it was the visiting teacher that I asked up - wouldn't have asked the 'regulars' because I'm not a 'good enough' dancer - yet the teacher was the best dancer there - but he was so approachable and friendly.

David Bailey
18th-April-2005, 02:43 PM
I can absorb the class and lead it. I can also lead what I learnt the week before but I do not really have sufficient muscle memory to freestyle Salsa.

I wouldn't try to judge your level of salsa freestyle by your level of MJ freestyle. Most salsa freestylers, up until you get to at least proper intermediate level, won't even be aware they're repeating moves too much. Although it's a good thing you know where it's going wrong, that's one benefit of the MJ dancing.



Thus I get asked to dance by ladies from the rotation who mistakenly think that they are gonna get a good dance only for it all to dissolve after 90 seconds of routine.

Hey, at least you're getting asked - not a small thing in many salsa venues!



Some of these tracks last for 6 minutes plus and I can not maintain the pretence for that long.
Zuhal
Yes, salsa tracks do tend to go on and on and on and on... don't they? Still, some bands playing live MJ tracks often seem to like the 10-minute mixes...

All I'd recommend is practise, write the moves down, practise more, etc. - same stuff we all did when learning MJ. Oh yes, and don't forget to practise.