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View Full Version : So what do punters really want from an Advanced class ?



RobC
20th-November-2004, 02:15 AM
OK, so I have been asked to teach a weekly advanced class every Sunday in Godalming for Ceroc Surrey and I have been given a free hand in what to teach. My initial thoughts are to make use of the time to teach style and technique to the class which, in my opinion, is what makes the difference between an intermediate and an advanced dancer, not overly complicated moves that most of the class won't end up using in freestyle anyway.

But what is it that the punters really want / expect from a class advirtised as Advanced ? I would be interested to hear from any teachers that teach a regular advanced class, or dancers that regularly attend the classes.

Trousers
20th-November-2004, 11:36 AM
OK, so I have been asked to teach a weekly advanced class ................

If i was able to attend such a class I would be happy to get style and techique pointers. However there is only so much style and technique that you could teach the rest the the individual dancer has to create for themselves.

What I would like to get is advanced moves that can be led. There seems little point to learn unleadable moves in a class with a bunch of dancers that you may never see again and thus never be able to dance those new moves.

philsmove
20th-November-2004, 11:43 AM
What I would like to get is advanced moves that can be led. There seems little point to learn unleadable moves in a class with a bunch of dancers that you may never see again and thus never be able to dance those new moves.

:yeah:

I could not agree more

spindr
20th-November-2004, 01:38 PM
OK, so I have been asked to teach a weekly advanced class every Sunday in Godalming for Ceroc Surrey and I have been given a free hand in what to teach. My initial thoughts are to make use of the time to teach style and technique to the class which, in my opinion, is what makes the difference between an intermediate and an advanced dancer, not overly complicated moves that most of the class won't end up using in freestyle anyway.


But what is it that the punters really want / expect from a class advertised as Advanced ? I would be interested to hear from any teachers that teach a regular advanced class, or dancers that regularly attend the classes.

I think having the class advertised as "Advanced" (*) doesn't really help: having the class advertised with some idea of the syllabus and topics covered each week is a much better idea.

I think "Style" also isn't helpful -- I'm guessing you'll not be teaching much hiphop or salsa/latin styling -- but perhaps a more graceful, smooth styling maybe with some ballroom/latin styling?

I think advanced topics are the really simple things that you need to have a good basis:
* Balance/walking
* Spinning
* Musicality
* How to make / break lines.
* Maybe even some floor craft :)
* And pushing the envelope on the music -- very very slow to help improve balance, and very fast to help you think more quickly on the dance floor.
* Oh, and don't teach a routine -- teach a move and then get leaders to practice them out of sequence, mixed with their own bit of freestyling.

SpinDr

(*) What I expect from a class just advertised as Advanced -- a routine that goes on interminably -- usually with a load of precarious drops that have no real use on the social dance floor!

Andy McGregor
20th-November-2004, 02:50 PM
IMHO all moves are intermediate. They are just moving the feet, waving the arms, holding on, not holding on, etc. Someone who's been dancing 6 months and has got the idea behind MJ could learn just about any move you could teach - but the chances are they wouldn't be an 'advanced dancer'. You can tell that Viktor is an advanced dancer when he does a travelling return, so 'advanced' must mean something other than moves.

So, we've established that moves aren't advanced. But what is advanced if it's not moves?

I'm not telling, because I don't want to give the game away.

.. just kidding :devil:

But, seriously, the reason I'm not telling is that I think you can't really be told. You need to be shown.

Oh, and I think a lot of the training for advanced dancing is the surgical removal of your bad habits - this is a painful process as there's no anaesthetic to deaden the sensations you feel as you realise the thing you've been doing (possibly unknowingly) for the last 5 years is actually totally wrong and makes you look rubbish and makes dancing with you a less than enjoyable experience - at least that's what I've found personally :tears:

jivecat
20th-November-2004, 03:18 PM
I think advanced topics are the really simple things that you need to have a good basis:
* Balance/walking
* Spinning
* Musicality
* How to make / break lines.
* Maybe even some floor craft :)
* And pushing the envelope on the music -- very very slow to help improve balance, and very fast to help you think more quickly on the dance floor.
* Oh, and don't teach a routine -- teach a move and then get leaders to practice them out of sequence, mixed with their own bit of freestyling.

SpinDr



Well, I agree. But I really think this is what they should be teaching as a matter of priority in beginner's/intermediate classes, though perhaps with more moves/routine content, at least for beginners. If this was done from the beginning then advanced lessons could successfully be based on advanced moves.

I would sign up for any class billed as style/technique/musicality. I'm not very interested in advanced moves and I certainly wouldn't class myself as an advanced dancer, so labelling a class as advanced might even put me off. And if "advanced" classes are actually based on basic style/technique/musicality etc, where does that leave proper advanced dancers who, IMO, already have all those attributes? What would their next step be?

jivecat
20th-November-2004, 03:27 PM
Oh, and I think a lot of the training for advanced dancing is the surgical removal of your bad habits - this is a painful process as there's no anaesthetic to deaden the sensations you feel as you realise the thing you've been doing (possibly unknowingly) for the last 5 years is actually totally wrong and makes you look rubbish and makes dancing with you a less than enjoyable experience - at least that's what I've found personally :tears:


Why does a dreadful sense of foreboding creep over me as I read these words? One day soon, I'm going to have to grit my teeth and get on with this painful process! But is any type of general class a place where you can get rid of bad habits? It seems to me that learning in a large class is more likely to reinforce bad habits as no correction, or even feedback, except of the most general kind, can take place. So, are private lessons the way to go?

spindr
20th-November-2004, 04:04 PM
Well, I agree. But I really think this is what they should be teaching as a matter of priority in beginner's/intermediate classes, though perhaps with more moves/routine content, at least for beginners. If this was done from the beginning then advanced lessons could successfully be based on advanced moves.

I think there's a difference here I certainly agree that if you think of the evening as a dance lesson, then that should be the approach.

If you think of it as more of a social evening -- then beginners / improvers probably aren't so worried about technique. It's only going to be when you reach a certain point that you realise that you need technique.


I would sign up for any class billed as style/technique/musicality. I'm not very interested in advanced moves and I certainly wouldn't class myself as an advanced dancer, so labelling a class as advanced might even put me off. And if "advanced" classes are actually based on basic style/technique/musicality etc, where does that leave proper advanced dancers who, IMO, already have all those attributes? What would their next step be?

Well, I think all reasons above are great arguments why a bit more advertising detail than "advanced" is useful.

SpinDr.

Minnie M
20th-November-2004, 04:18 PM
Last Thursday I ask a guy to dance I had never met before who seemed to know what he was doing in the class

Well.............. he had a combination or should I say collection of very unusual moves most quite complicated - I did manage to follow all of them BUT........... only when I stopped listening to the music :mad:

The trouble is, he thinks he is a very good dancer because he can perform such 'advance' moves - but is he dancing :whistle:

I think when you have a teacher/dancer, such as RobC, who has such great musicality, that is what he should be passing on to others as an 'advance' class

Andreas
20th-November-2004, 04:24 PM
IMHO all moves are intermediate. They are just moving the feet, waving the arms, holding on, not holding on, etc. Someone who's been dancing 6 months and has got the idea behind MJ could learn just about any move you could teach - but the chances are they wouldn't be an 'advanced dancer'. You can tell that Viktor is an advanced dancer when he does a travelling return, so 'advanced' must mean something other than moves.

So, we've established that moves aren't advanced. But what is advanced if it's not moves?



I agree but also disagree. There are moves that, in my opinion, require a certain level of ability from the dancer. Sure, about anybody can learn them but, as you say, it'd not make them advanced dancers.

So moves can be advanced but they don't re-classify the dancers.

To be labeled advanced dancer I'd say it takes fluency in motion, ability to interpret music, a good balance etc.. Only somebody who got to grips with his/her basics can use the potential of 'advanced moves'. At the end of the day it is not what move you do but HOW you do it. An advanced dancer will still look great doing simple moves.

MartinHarper
20th-November-2004, 04:39 PM
deleted

Gadget
23rd-November-2004, 02:30 PM
{I think I am taking this "article" concept a bit far...:D}

A similar question was asked of me this weekend; what did I learn from the workshops?: I don't think I learned anything new - I was reminded of a few things that I had been taught before (although perhaps not put into practice) but there was no real flash of inspiration or moment of clarity or a concept that made me think harder. Lots of "How to" with a cursory glance at "When to".
Perhaps this is the elusive difference between an 'intermediate' workshop and an 'advanced' one?
(Before I get flamed, or picked on by the teachers in future :rolleyes: they were good workshops, packed with useful tips and ideas - I'm perhaps getting a bit long in the tooth.)


The one I think I got the most out of was Lisa's on spinning (with help from her lovely assistant :wink: );
- Keeping 'upright' with bent knees seems contrary to the way I've been brought up. Something I will need to re-learn.
- Keeping that trailing foot in close is something everyone who teaches spins says; something I have known about for years but can't seem to put into practice. For some reason it seems to throw me off-balance :what: Needs to be practiced I suppose.
- tips on cheating, assisted spins, turning, balance,... were all handy.
I found that I led more multiple spins at the party than I normally do as a result of this workshop; apologies if I made anyone too dizzy :blush:

Lisa's "Making the most out of the music" workshop was an introduction to how to dance to different styles of music and what makes a 'latin' style look/feel latin; a 'blues' style look/feel blusey...etc. Personally I thought that there was a lot that could have been covered but wasn't and the 'ceroc training' of having to teach a routine got in the way of teaching a concept.
One move to capture the elements of that style would have been perfect and led the way to further workshops in the individual genre's. What was taught was done well and there is no denying that Lisa is one of the most stylish and interpretive dancers in Scotland (I would expand that to the UK or even remove the qualifier, but haven't seen many people beyond these shores.)
I liked the fact that style should not interfere with the ability to lead/follow was mentioned.
One final criticism on this workshop was that the 'fun' style was a bit confusing - or at least I found it so; shouldn't all dances be fun? perhaps thrown in at the end as an amalgamation of all the styles?
{I've been trying for months to 'wind in' my styling and get a better 'core' to put it back on top of - I think that this one workshop has blown a good proportion of this work :tears:... but it's fun :D}

The dancing to various tempos workshop was similar to the one in Perth, except from the opposite end; in Perth there was a focus on faster music. Here the focus was on slower. Personally I would have liked to see more on how to change between the two smoothly within the song and create some contrast. Perhaps a bit on freezes as well?
Most of the workshop was aimed at leading properly so that you could convey to your partner what tempo you wanted to dance at. The importance of a 'frame' to guide the lady with three points of contact rather than the one usually used (or two as should be used now & again - but seldom is.)

The last workshop of the weekend was reversing roles. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - leading and following are two separate skills; :worthy: to those who can follow and :worthy::worthy::worthy: to those who can do both. I liked the way we swapped roles and rotated all the time - although confusing, it helped focus on 'who you were'.
As simple as it may sound, the first thing I found hard to get right was a return - the lead guided me into the return, but then left me to turn on my own before taking it up again to "lower and step back".
Other things that I found difficult were from my own ability to lead:
- taking with the left hand instead of catching with the closest,
- following the hand with the lower torso,
- "listening" instead of "talking"...
I could tell when I was being given a lead, but found it much harder to work out what they were asking me to do.
I also found that when I am focused on leading clearer (for beginners), I lead some moves differently - I actually lead the step back of moves with compression; I start the lady in a free-spin by ending the flicking motion forward rather than to the side; I start the side motion for a turn before raising the hand over the head; I over-rule any feedback motion from my partner and maintain a fluid motion; my lead is either in compression or tension, commanding the lady instead of gently guiding their motion as I try to do during 'normal' dancing. While these are good for dancing with novices or hesitant dancers, I think I am probably too heavy handed when it comes to leading good dancers.


This is just my perceptions of a weekend's workshops - notice that the majority of points above are my own observations; seldom what was actually taught. I think that I would have gained as much from a group of friends dancing together and sharing tips. Perhaps I expect too much from a workshop? I want to learn concepts, then a couple of examples of them put into practice.
The problem I think lies in the fact that a concept can be one sentence worth, then the examples take up the rest of the workshop, drowning out the concept in the first place. The best workshops repeat the concept and show how they apply to the moves as they are taught. Then the concept is covered with more detail as a summary.
A few workshops I have attended seem to be a whole bundle of tips, but a core concept behind them is lost in the noise of general advice. Or the concept focused on is only a small part of the whole and not what was billed. Like going to see a magician and he only does card tricks - what about sawing a lady in half, smashing an audience member's watch, pulling a rabbit out of a hat and doves from the air? True, you have been taught what was billed, but not what was expected.

Would you rather go to a workshop billed "Making the most of your moves" or "Turning four moves into forty"? I was thinking on the same core concept for each of the 'headlines'. The first is ambiguous and could refer to musicality, style, technique, ...etc but how can you put all of that into one workshop? You either brush on each area briefly, or focus on an aspect and re-label it eg. "Using musicality to make the most of your moves".
The ambiguous one would draw more people to attend - but not be in-depth enough to appease a lot of attendees. The more precise one would (perhaps) not draw as many people, but give the folk attending a more focused workshop.

RobC
23rd-November-2004, 02:58 PM
Really useful post, Gadget. Seems I have to spread it around a bit before giving you any more rep tho :sad:

Gus
23rd-November-2004, 03:08 PM
Been thinking about this a lot recently (especially as we go live iwth CoolCatz in 3 days and I still havent managed to get my first lesson sorted (:tears: ). One of the biggest challenges is not so much what you teach but the ability level of the dancers. I think we've all been on workshops where some of the particpants were clearly not up to the standard required to take on board the course's content. I've heard people coming off a Viktor workshop style workshop commenting how easy it was ... clearly they missed the point. Its incorporating the subtleties that is the most challenging part of such workshops.

I had a real learning experience when I got to teach a real advanced class in NZ where only level 3 dancers were allowed to attend. This meant that you can really move up a gear in terms of the complexity and the detail of what you teach. Back to the real world we've had a fair few debates and jokes about what we do if dancers turn up who are 'cr*p'. Do you have a couple of bouncers demanding people to do a mini-audition before they come in, crew circulating the dance floor ejecting bad dancers? ( :devil: ). An 'advanced night' concept depends on the dancers being a minimum standard ... but how do you enforce that?

I'm not really sure how things will go .. we are trying to stay away form teaching complex moves, trying to foucus more on teaching people how to dance; smoothing out movement, more interation with their partner, using half and double beat timing, being more expressionate (real word?). Whether this is teachable or whether its what will bring the punters in ... well, only time will tell.

ChrisA
23rd-November-2004, 03:20 PM
An 'advanced night' concept depends on the dancers being a minimum standard ... but how do you enforce that?

By making it difficult enough.

Dreadful Scathe
23rd-November-2004, 04:20 PM
I think we had a similar discussion before. I still say that there is a world of difference between advanced moves and advanced dancing. For me, an advanced class would teach me how to improve my dancing and would not be about learning any new moves - i already know moves but i could certainly improve how i do them :) If an advanced class is going to just cover complicated moves it should advertise itself as such but I mostly agree with Andy, that all moves are intermediate level - with exceptions... there will be some moves that some people are physically incapable of!! Im not just talking about jumps and drops - a simple yo-yo done double-time or a pretzel with the turn-out bit done double time is beyond some people as is the splits a la Victor. You could argue that they are not any more complicated than other moves but can everyone do them ? No. So advanced moves like that would pretty much require testing to se if the dancers were up to it. An advanced class that aims to make peoples dancing and the moves they do do much better, is more likely to appeal to your standard Mj'er. Am I wrong ? :)

Andy McGregor
23rd-November-2004, 04:33 PM
Back to the real world we've had a fair few debates and jokes about what we do if dancers turn up who are 'cr*p'. Do you have a couple of bouncers demanding people to do a mini-audition before they come in, crew circulating the dance floor ejecting bad dancers? ( :devil: ). An 'advanced night' concept depends on the dancers being a minimum standard ... but how do you enforce that?

I have probably said this before but it seems it's time to say it again. On the first night of Hipsters, Nigel said something like 'this is an advanced lesson for advanced dancers: if you're having trouble getting the lesson you aren't an advanced dancer'. He wasn't quite that blunt but that was the message I got - and I was chuffed to get the lesson as it meant I was an advanced dancer. Of course I could have been deluding myself that I'd got the lesson :wink:

Gus
23rd-November-2004, 04:36 PM
I have probably said this before but it seems it's time to say it again. On the first night of Hipsters, Nigel said something like 'this is an advanced lesson for advanced dancers: if you're having trouble getting the lesson you aren't an advanced dancer'. He wasn't quite that blunt but that was the message I got - and I was chuffed to get the lesson as it meant I was an advanced dancer. Of course I could have been deluding myself that I'd got the lesson :wink:Sufficeth to say I was also there and I crashed and burnt ... 'nuff said :sad:

ChrisA
23rd-November-2004, 04:38 PM
On the first night of Hipsters, Nigel said something like 'this is an advanced lesson for advanced dancers: if you're having trouble getting the lesson you aren't an advanced dancer'. He wasn't quite that blunt but that was the message I got - and I was chuffed to get the lesson as it meant I was an advanced dancer. Of course I could have been deluding myself that I'd got the lesson :wink:

And of course your logic is flawed, too... :flower:

Just because if you can't get the lesson, you aren't an advanced dancer, it doesn't follow that if you can, you are :devil: :D

Chris

Andy McGregor
23rd-November-2004, 04:55 PM
And of course your logic is flawed, too... :flower:

Just because if you can't get the lesson, you aren't an advanced dancer, it doesn't follow that if you can, you are :devil: :D

Chris

I knew someone would spot that :tears:

Jive Brummie
23rd-November-2004, 11:40 PM
I think we had a similar discussion before. I still say that there is a world of difference between advanced moves and advanced dancing. For me, an advanced class would teach me how to improve my dancing and would not be about learning any new moves - i already know moves but i could certainly improve how i do them :) If an advanced class is going to just cover complicated moves it should advertise itself as such but I mostly agree with Andy, that all moves are intermediate level - with exceptions... there will be some moves that some people are physically incapable of!! Im not just talking about jumps and drops - a simple yo-yo done double-time or a pretzel with the turn-out bit done double time is beyond some people as is the splits a la Victor. You could argue that they are not any more complicated than other moves but can everyone do them ? No. So advanced moves like that would pretty much require testing to se if the dancers were up to it. An advanced class that aims to make peoples dancing and the moves they do do much better, is more likely to appeal to your standard Mj'er. Am I wrong ? :)


:yeah: I have to agree with 'blue boy' on this one. I also am of the opinion that an advanced class shouldn't necessarily teach advanced moves, rather it should actually provide feedback to joe punter as to how they can improve their dancing/style (according to the teacher that is). It's nice to be shown the odd 'wow' move, but there really isn't any point trying to do it if you can't do it well. And this all boils down to honesty, not only being honest with yourself but to others too. But then, how do you teach honesty? And, does the paying customer really want to be told by joe bloggs that they could dance better if they tried this or that.... I'd like to think they would.

If i was running an advanced class i'd probably want to specify that the people coming should have complete understanding of their own bodies and how they move, what they are and aren't capable of and be prepared for hearing the worst. As mine and Melanie's Funky Jazz teacher said last night, "who said dancing was easy?" And d'ya know what...she was right.

It's all well and good providing advanced classes, but if man A is competant and woman B isn't (I'm not pointing the finger by the way ladies :flower: )then who benefits and who loses out? Should they be fixed couples only or aimed at competitors etc who are in the enviable position of being able to go over what's been told to them, again and again, until it suits them and their partner....

Jeekers i feel like i could write loads on this but i'm not really sure what i'm trying to say :sick: If anyone knows, could they let me in on it :rofl:


JB x x

DavidY
23rd-November-2004, 11:57 PM
:yeah: I have to agree with 'blue boy' on this one. I also am of the opinion that an advanced class shouldn't necessarily teach advanced moves, rather it should actually provide feedback to joe punter as to how they can improve their dancing/style (according to the teacher that is).I'm interested that you mention "feedback".

Obviously you can show people ways to improve their dancing style without doing advanced moves. However you could run workshops like that without giving any feedback at all.

I've just come in from a ballroom/latin lesson where I got specific feedback when I was doing something wrong. In MJ it's quite rare to get feedback - even in workshops. I'm sure I've got lots of ingrained bad habits in my MJ dancing :blush: & I'm sure it would be good for me to know what they were (although it would be painful! ).

So what level of feedback should teachers give? Should it include negative feedback when you do it wrong as well as the much nicer positive feedback when you do it right? Or should this be done outside workshops (eg. private lessons)?

jivecat
24th-November-2004, 12:46 AM
I've just come in from a ballroom/latin lesson where I got specific feedback when I was doing something wrong. In MJ it's quite rare to get feedback - even in workshops. I'm sure I've got lots of ingrained bad habits in my MJ dancing :blush: & I'm sure it would be good for me to know what they were (although it would be painful! ).

So what level of feedback should teachers give? Should it include negative feedback when you do it wrong as well as the much nicer positive feedback when you do it right? Or should this be done outside workshops (eg. private lessons)?

Perhaps the lack of feedback is because MJ is taught primarily as a social dance. For a lot of people, as long as the dance is performing it's social function it doesn't really matter much how they dance. And even a small amount of negative feedback would be very off-putting especially if it was a matter that could not easily be put right.

But I think that mainly there is no feedback because the way we experience MJ is usually as a packaged, marketed product. Making people work hard and nagging them to unlearn bad habits would be bad for business. In general, that is, not of course to the sad obsessives writing on this forum!
So instead we get the insincere gushing by the teacher about how brilliantly we've all done such and such a move (I've not experienced the clapping though) even when we obviously haven't. I suppose they are trying to motivate by unremitting praise and approval.

I personally think that an advanced class should contain some personal feedback. After all, if, say, the line of the body was important, then how would you know it was right unless the teacher checked everyone and told them. It would help if classes were held in proper dance studios with
mirrors.

But the fragmented nature of MJ training could create problems. Everybody learns from dozens of different teachers and chooses for themselves what they think they need to know. There's no set standard as to exactly how moves should be performed that I am aware of, unlike e.g. ballet where every tiny move has to conform to preset patterns of correctness. Also, in ballet, people spend more time being trained by one teacher who undertakes some responsibility for their learning. It would be easy, in MJ, to get a situation where one teacher picked out faults in one short workshop, didn't/couldn't help to address them because there was no time, only for another teacher to pick out a completely different set of faults in the next workshop. This could be seriously frustrating and demotivating.

I think that bad habits are likely to be ingrained and need quite a lot of specific tuition to shift them - at the moment only available in private lessons. Advanced workshops might need to be much smaller than they are at present, and not contain much teaching of a routine to give the teacher more time to get round everyone.

jockey
24th-November-2004, 01:16 AM
Advanced partners.

jockey
24th-November-2004, 03:32 PM
The answer to the question is advanced moves. But are advanced moves what they should be looking for?
Andy Mac's answer is no because all moves are intermediate. What is his argument?
1) all moves 'involve moving feet, waving arms, holding on, not holding on, etc' ;
2) a top class dancer (Viktor) can make a beginner's move (travelling return) look very good; so, Andy concludes,
we've established that moves aren't adavanced.

Well all cars involve a steering wheel, an engine, 4 wheels (for the sake of argument) aaand a few seats but that doesn't make a Fiat Uno the same as a Ferrari! One is cheap and cheerful and the other is complex and beautifully engineered. So '1)' is out of the window.

From the (accepted) observation that Viktor and Carol and the like can make a simple move beautiful it doesn't follow that there are no such thing as advanced moves. Viktor teaches that advanced dancers are advanced because they make ordinary moves look good (I've done that class) but watch him pulling out all the stops in competition and you will see plenty of 'advanced' moves where 'advanced' includes the concept 'complicated' - you need to have been a boy scout or a girl guide to get out of some of those salsa twists and knots...

So '2)' has gone also.
Sorry Andy, some moves are more equal than others after all.

(Though I'm happy to agree that there is more to advanced dancing than advanced moves.)

jockey
24th-November-2004, 07:51 PM
Well, I agree. But I really think this is what they should be teaching as a matter of priority in beginner's/intermediate classes, though perhaps with more moves/routine content, at least for beginners. If this was done from the beginning then advanced lessons could successfully be based on advanced moves.

I would sign up for any class billed as style/technique/musicality. I'm not very interested in advanced moves and I certainly wouldn't class myself as an advanced dancer, so labelling a class as advanced might even put me off. And if "advanced" classes are actually based on basic style/technique/musicality etc, where does that leave proper advanced dancers who, IMO, already have all those attributes? What would their next step be?
I strongly recommend you get along to a Joseph and Tricia musicality type class. I wont tell you what happens cos I dont want to spoil the surprise. They teach in a sort of just-north-west-of-London type area (Herts). They are great..(Where is that post about advanced teachers?). AND they will dance with you... :clap:

jivecat
24th-November-2004, 08:59 PM
I strongly recommend you get along to a Joseph and Tricia musicality type class. I wont tell you what happens cos I dont want to spoil the surprise. They teach in a sort of just-north-west-of-London type area (Herts). They are great..(Where is that post about advanced teachers?). AND they will dance with you... :clap:


Thanks Jockey. I've heard of them, but never encountered them in a workshop. Hertfordshire wouldn't be too far outside my patch to visit now and again.

ElaineB
24th-November-2004, 10:12 PM
I remember going to my very first 'Amir' class at Hipsters about a year ago and was absolutely overawed! What did we do? The first move! The first move with musical interpretation , the first move with and oh yes, something about lead/follow!

So for me, if Rob were to teach a class primarily about lead/follow, add a bit of musicality and then style, I would consider that to be advanced. As Andy and DS said, most moves are 'intermediate', it is surely the way that they are executed that take them up a notch or two.

Elaine

Gadget
24th-November-2004, 11:03 PM
Sorry Andy, some moves are more equal than others after all
I'm afraid that I have to side with Andy on this one: the only moves that I would call "advanced" would be those that the lady has to implicitly trust their partner. (arials & drops)
Even then, the moves themselves are not that 'advanced' - anyone with a partner, time to practice and some crash-mats could pull them off.

The "Advanced" part comes in how to execute the moves in time, where flourish can be added, how to lead them properly, how to lead/follow subtalties, how and where you can move your body while executing the move, how and where you should move your body when executing the move, how to smooth some bits of the move and how to sharpen others, when to smooth and when to sharpen, ...
I can show someone a move. I can show them every exit and entrance to that move with every place within it that could be diverted into another move. This is useless unless you can listen to the music and use it to tell you where (and if) the move should be interupted, slowed, paused, diverted etc.
This is {IMHO} one of the key things that makes an advanced dancer: Being able to not only listen to music, but hear where it can be used to change their dancing.

Then you have the rhythm of movements within a move: Simple side to side steps, leading the lady to the beat. what happens? is it a smooth change of direction? smooth movement with an impact on the beat while changing direction? does the movement slow as it approaches the change, or go quicker? Does the change in direction actually happen on the beat, or is there a slight pause before moving in the other direction, or a slight pause to start moving immediatly on the beat?
Timing and how to match your movements to the music. Another "advanced" skill.

And the execution of a move: Your hand may be leading the lady to the right, but it is attached to the rest of your body; Is this movement mirrored with the other hand? used to create a shape(line), with arms, body, head..? do your feet continue the movement where your hand left off, or interrrupt to start a new movement? Is the arm simply moved to enable the hand to lead/follow, or does the action of the hand stem from within the body to flow down the arm to the hand?
This is an advanced dancer. Not simply leading or following, but moving with the lead.

In my opinion, an "internediate" dancer simply knows how to lead/follow and can dance to the music. An advanced dancer builds on this and knows how to dance with the music.


{Should be enough inspiration material in that to spark a couple of advanced classes/workshops for you :wink: :D}

MartinHarper
24th-November-2004, 11:52 PM
The "Advanced" part comes in [...] how to lead them properly, how to lead/follow subtelties

Some moves require proper leading, proper following, and the ability to lead and follow subtelties. Would it be fair to describe these as advanced moves?

Gadget
24th-November-2004, 11:56 PM
Some moves require proper leading, proper following, and the ability to lead and follow subtelties. Would it be fair to describe these as advanced moves?
All moves require proper lead/follow. Only by leading/following them properly can you even attempt to be subtle.

DavidB
25th-November-2004, 12:08 AM
Whether or not people want moves or technique, the one thing they will always demand is something new.

Figuring out new advanced moves is not that easy (unless you are called Nelson), but it is something that teachers are used to.

However there is not that much technique you can teach. There is only so much you can say about leading & following for example before you start repeating yourself. The hard thing about technique is not the learning or the understanding, but the doing. People keep making the same mistakes, and need to be told the same thing over and over again.

You end up with a stalemate - the student saying "you keep repeating that" and the teacher saying "so why don't you do it".

To me the challenge with an advanced class is to keep teaching the same basic ideas, but always in different ways. Then it doesn't sound repetitive, and you might eventually get your message through.

Gus
25th-November-2004, 12:17 AM
You end up with a stalemate - the student saying "you keep repeating that" and the teacher saying "so why don't you do it".

To me the challenge with an advanced class is to keep teaching the same basic ideas, but always in different ways. Then it doesn't sound repetitive, and you might eventually get your message through.
:yeah: Absolutely spot on. One of the biggest barriers to most intermediates developing as dancers is that their basics arent right, i.e. lead, balance, timing, posture, grip, arm positioning etc. I would bet that at least 75% of intermediates would benefit from going through all the beginners moves ... and doing them correctly! BUT .. run an advanced class and commercial reality means that you have to throw in an advanced move or two (sorry Gadget, there ARE advanced moves) to keep Jo Public happy.

Gadget
25th-November-2004, 03:02 PM
BUT .. run an advanced class and commercial reality means that you have to throw in an advanced move or two (sorry Gadget, there ARE advanced moves)
?? :confused:
Any moves that do not involve having to practice it with a specific partner?

Jive Brummie
27th-November-2004, 04:41 PM
I'm interested that you mention "feedback".


So what level of feedback should teachers give? Should it include negative feedback when you do it wrong as well as the much nicer positive feedback when you do it right? Or should this be done outside workshops (eg. private lessons)?

I think this all depends on the standard of dancer you're aiming the classes at. To me, by definition, if someone is attending an advanced class it's because they want that little something extra to make them stand out from everyone else. And to an extent, i don't think this could really be achieved by constantly patting them on the back and saying "well done, give yourself a round of applause!". I think you'd have to be prepared to hear the worst, but as a teacher, i'm of the opinion that telling somebody they're doing something wrong can have a negative effect. It's much more encouraging as a 'student' to hear the words..."yeah that's good, but, it'd be even better if you tried it this way" etc etc.

I've mentioned mine & Melanie's Funky Jazz teacher on here already and i'll mention her again...week after week, we go through a series of warm up type movements, which in actual fact are the basis for the moves you're going to do that night, and she takes on the roll of being a bit of facist. Now to Melanie and I that's fine, as we're pretty experienced dancers and know that miracles don't happen over night and that you have to work for...everything, no question. But to the lesser experienced person, it's a bit tough to swallow. So maybe it should be a case of specifying that this advanced class is for people who really, really want to get to the 'next level', and that it's not going to be purely showing them moves that'll get their arms in a knot and their attitudes seriously pi$$ed off when they find they can't do the move.

Am really interested to hear how these classes go and in what form they take.

JB x x

Jive Brummie
27th-November-2004, 04:44 PM
....and another thing (sorry guys, bare with me :wink: )

If i was going to attend this advanced class, i'd want the teacher to be on my level...as in, not on stage. That way it'd make the entire feel of the class a wee bit more intimate and different from the norm. To the point where i'd want the teacher to physically 'shove' me about a bit until i'd got it right...but thats just me. No pain, no point...'n all that :sick:

JB x x

MartinHarper
5th-May-2005, 12:58 AM
This may well be a flash of the blindingly obvious, but....
As the majority of modern jivers are the product of technique-lite teaching, should advanced modern jive technique revolve around ways to dance better with technique-lite dancers? Or should it be more about ways to dance better with the minority of other advanced modern jivers?

(where "advanced" = more advanced than a standard intermediate class)

David Bailey
5th-May-2005, 08:27 AM
This may well be a flash of the blindingly obvious, but....
As the majority of modern jivers are the product of technique-lite teaching, should advanced modern jive technique revolve around ways to dance better with technique-lite dancers? Or should it be more about ways to dance better with the minority of other advanced modern jivers?

(where "advanced" = more advanced than a standard intermediate class)
:yeah: Spookily, that occurred to me a couple of days ago.
At the risk of opening "advanced / elite" can of worms, MJ is (for me) about having fun and dancing with lots of different people. It's not (again, for me) primarily about improving technique to Godlike levels.

So a lot of advanced MJ techniques (subtle leads, active following etc.) are probably useless with most MJ dancers. So, if you learn all these things, to retain them and incorporate them, you'd need to mainly dance with the other technique-o-philes, and less with others.

OK, this pretty much happens already, hence the whole cliquey thing, but it's a good point anyway.

However, I'm not sure what this sort of advanced class would teach... Safety tips? Recovering from follower mistakes ( :innocent: )?