Name and Shame

[Gus]

Coming out of a number of other threads, there have been stories about individuals who cannot be named for ettiquette and/or legal reasons. I was wondering what is the legal situation with actualy nameing these people. As long as the allegation could be verified ..... NOT just rumour, dont have the dancing public have a right to know about these dancers? It must be doubly the case for organsiers .... how would you feel to book someone then find out what they've been up to. This would put the orgnaiser in a very interesting position of someone got hurt/offended.

I'm not suggesting that there necceesairly should be a 'Name and Shame' thread on this forum ... but there MUST be a way of stopping these people continuing to be part of the MJ scene. :mad: Thoughts?

[Will]

I'm not sure but I think that you can get away with saying just about anything you like if you insert the word "Allegedly" at the end of the sentence. Isn't that what bald headed editor of Private Eye does on "Have I got News for you" since his publication was successfully sued for libel once.

"Freddie Star ate my Hampster, allegedly" should be perfectly legal.

[djtrev]

There is no point in asking for people to be named and shamed Gus.I seem to recall somebody;I think it might have been you,but I will check that later;asking for somebody's name in the thread on "hotshots" but I assume because of the forum ettiquette obviously no name was given.
Recently I did name a person who I thought was a hotshot-nice enough person but nevertheless a hotshot in my eyes,but it was edited out.
I am sure that this particular person would agree that whilst not in their opinion,a hotshot,they are certainly selective with whom they dance with.
One other point I would like to make is that it was suggested that there was no place for these kind of people in MJ and we were best rid of them.Well I am sorry but we are just going to have to ignore them because just like groupies on the pop scene not only do these people want to dance with just the best punters they also target the "stars" of the dance scene.
I would imagine that most of the dj's on this forum who have been involved in any organised freestyle nights will have seen it happen time and time again-I know I have.

[djtrev]

Sorry Gus - it was Ceroc Jock

[David Franklin]

I'm not sure but I think that you can get away with saying just about anything you like if you insert the word "Allegedly" at the end of the sentence.I am not a lawyer, but as I understand it, "allegedly" doesn't help you at all - in fact some say it may make your situation worse, because you are implicitly repeating malicious gossip even though you don't know it is true. There is an exception: in certain formal proceedings, court cases in particular, you are allowed to report the formal allegations - e.g. if someone is on trial for murder you can call him the 'alleged murderer' without libelling him.

Dave

[bigdjiver]

I'm not sure but I think that you can get away with saying just about anything you like if you insert the word "Allegedly" at the end of the sentence. Isn't that what bald headed editor of Private Eye does on "Have I got News for you" since his publication was successfully sued for libel once.

"Freddie Star ate my Hampster, allegedly" should be perfectly legal.Iain Hislop uses "allegedly" when he does not personally know something is true, but knows exactly who says he it is, and knows that they are a credible source, and, most importantly, that this time he is unlikely to be sued. Private Eye has lost very many libel cases, the vast majority before Mr Hislop took over and watered it down (allegedly).

I am not a lawyer either, but I think "Freddie Star ate my Hampster, allegedly" could get you sued by Freddy Starr, and by the person(s) you allege made the allegation.

[CJ]

Sorry Gus - it was Ceroc Jock

I can't believe you named me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You should be asheamed of yourself!! :wink:

[Divissima]

I got this from dictionary.com which pretty much summarises the legal position, as I understand it.

Defamation:
Act of injuring another's reputation by any slanderous communication, written or oral; the wrong of maliciously injuring the good name of another; slander; detraction; calumny; aspersion.

Note: In modern usage, written defamation bears the title of libel, and oral defamation that of slander. --Burrill

I have never studied or practised in that area of the law, so I'm definitely not holding myself out as an expert. But my understanding is that you need:

[1] damage to the reputation of the defamed person [2] caused by the spreading (either written or orally) of a [3] false accusation.

Usually there isn't much point suing someone over it unless it either causes you to lose lots of money (because your reputation has been damaged) or because the person making the allegation has lots of money (because they are a big newspaper and publishing group, for example).

I don't think using 'allegedly' helps you out either, because you are still publishing the false accusation just by repeating the allegation. However, if the allegations have already been widely published, I don't believe simply reporting or referring to the allegations in public would necessarily be defamation (I guess you'd have to prove that additional damage was caused). I'd be interested to hear from any solicitors/barristers on the forum who have expertise in the field.

My personal feeling is that naming and shaming of any kind has no place on the Forum. While we are all entitled to our own views, I don't believe the Forum is a place to criticise named individuals - if you have a problem with them, talk to them in private.

[Will]

I can't believe you named me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You should be asheamed of yourself!! :wink:

Sue him!

[Andy McGregor]

I am not a lawyer either, but I think "Freddie Star ate my Hampster, allegedly" could get you sued by Freddy Starr, and by the person(s) you allege made the allegation.

Although I think the Hamster Freddie Star didn't eat is probably quite pleased that it's not true - and is probably quite happy to be named :clap:

In fact, as Freddy ate no hamster at all, the hamster he didn't eat is all of them :confused:

But, back on-topic. Should we name and shame? I think we should, but not on a public forum like this, simply because it exposes the owner of the forum to the risk of the person doing the naming being wrong. And some people, especially those we aren't naming, could maliciously name someone just to get Franck into trouble. Also, if we're naming someone who is violent we put ourselves at risk in our act of naming.

One particular person Gus is not naming is one I've been not naming for a very long time. I have actually witnessed him assaulting a dance teacher on-stage at one of the dance teacher's lessons. I'm not sure if it should be called assault, affray or GBH but the teacher was punched in the head with such force he was knocked unconscious for a short time :sick: And a number of reliable and not-so-reliable witnesses have reported an assault on another dancer by this un-named person. Some of my other friends have been manipulated and threatened by this individual, a few of them have had such severe problems that they've had to seek advice/help from the police. But, even though I'm certain of what I've actually seen with my own eyes I will not name this person on here. And, I will not tell you who it is if you PM and ask me. Does that failure to issue a warning make me wrong? I don't know :tears:

I think this is a question of morality and I don't have an answer to it. I wish I had one, and that it was neat and tidy.

[stewart38]

But, back on-topic. Should we name and shame? I think we should, but not on a public forum like this, simply because it exposes the owner of the forum to the risk of the person doing the naming being wrong. And some people, especially those we aren't naming, could maliciously name someone just to get Franck into trouble. Also, if we're naming someone who is violent we put ourselves at risk in our act of naming.

One particular person Gus is not naming is one I've been not naming for a very long time. I have actually witnessed him assaulting a dance teacher on-stage at one of the dance teacher's lessons. I'm not sure if it should be called assault, affray or GBH but the teacher was punched in the head with such force he was knocked unconscious for a short time :sick: And a number of reliable and not-so-reliable witnesses have reported an assault on another dancer by this un-named person. Some of my other friends have been manipulated and threatened by this individual, a few of them have had such severe problems that they've had to seek advice/help from the police. But, even though I'm certain of what I've actually seen with my own eyes I will not name this person on here. And, I will not tell you who it is if you PM and ask me. Does that failure to issue a warning make me wrong? I don't know :tears:

I think this is a question of morality and I don't have an answer to it. I wish I had one, and that it was neat and tidy.

So why wouldnt he be banned from every venue in the country ?

They banned that women thief at Southport ? Probably easier said then done

[drathzel]

Coming out of a number of other threads, there have been stories about individuals who cannot be named for ettiquette and/or legal reasons. I was wondering what is the legal situation with actualy nameing these people. As long as the allegation could be verified ..... NOT just rumour, dont have the dancing public have a right to know about these dancers? It must be doubly the case for organsiers .... how would you feel to book someone then find out what they've been up to. This would put the orgnaiser in a very interesting position of someone got hurt/offended.

I'm not suggesting that there necceesairly should be a 'Name and Shame' thread on this forum ... but there MUST be a way of stopping these people continuing to be part of the MJ scene. :mad: Thoughts?

I found it really hard not to name and shame in my inappropriate touching thread however i think this might have been for the best as after i posted plenty of forumites came up to me and asked. i think its probably better to say yes, there is an individual at "venue name" then if people are genuinely worried they will ask you. Othere wise its just idle gossip whether its true or not!

This is all IMHO

:hug:

[Andy McGregor]

So why wouldnt he be banned from every venue in the country ?

Because he would have to be named and the person doing the naming would have to be believed.


They banned that women thief at Southport ? Probably easier said then done

Most people would, unknowingly let her into their venues. How many people know what she looks like? And, you have another moral question to answer. Once she's been punished by the powers that be should we continue to punish her once she's rehabilitated?

[djtrev]

In cases of assault I do think these individuals should be banned.At my particular venue we have banned one person because of complaints from ladies that he was acting inappropriately.
I would agree that naming "hotshots" which was what I was referring to would not be appropriate and in the long run would achieve nothing.

[Andy McGregor]

I would agree that naming "hotshots" which was what I was referring to would not be appropriate and in the long run would achieve nothing.

There is no requirement to name hotshots. Just use a dart gun to sedate them and then write 'HOTSHOT' on their forehead :innocent:

That way we will all know that we shouldn't waste our time asking them to dance. Also, there is a big difference between a look of distain in response to a polite offer of a dance and a punch in the head :sick:

[djtrev]

Andy please dont take this the wrong way, I mean no offence to you personnally but you can hardly avoid these people because of your high profile in MJ circles you are the very person they seek out.I believe the same could be said (allegedly) of people like Frank,Peter and any teacher you care to mention.
But as you rightly say we,that is the rank and file :wink: :wink: shouldn't waste our time asking them to dance

[Andy McGregor]

Andy please dont take this the wrong way, I mean no offence to you personnally but you can hardly avoid these people because of your high profile in MJ circles you are the very person they seek out.I believe the same could be said (allegedly) of people like Frank,Peter and any teacher you care to mention.

Trev is right. Most of the time I don't, personally, have a problem with Hotshot dancers turning me down. But I remember what it was like when I did :mad: And, because of that experience, I will always say an enthusiastic 'yes' to anyone who asks me to dance. And I still try to dance with almost every woman in the room by the end of the night. I say 'almost' because I don't ask the women who've turned me down. After all, you've asked 'would you like to dance with me?' - they've come to a dance class so they obviously want to dance: it's the 'me' bit that must bother them. And as I'm still 'me' I must assume that the 'no' still stands until I hear otherwise - to ask again would make me a pest :tears:

In my experience, the women I consistently get turned down by are very attractive, young women :tears: I think I just have to accept that, to them, I'm an old bloke who isn't a possible boyfriend - or maybe they just don't fancy me :flower:



But as you rightly say we,that is the rank and file :wink: :wink: shouldn't waste our time asking them to dance

Quite right. Ask them once to see if you've got the wrong impression. If you get a distainful 'no' you've know where you stand.

[spindr]

Not exactly case law, but interesting precedent?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/03/30/demon_coughs_up_damages/

[Northants Girly]

the women I consistently get turned down by . . .Did I read that right? :what:

Surely it can't be true!! :flower:

[Graham W]

Iain Hislop uses "allegedly" when he does not personally know something is true, but knows exactly who says he it is, and knows that they are a credible source, and, most importantly, that this time he is unlikely to be sued. Private Eye has lost very many libel cases, the vast majority before Mr Hislop took over and watered it down (allegedly).

I am not a lawyer either, but I think "Freddie Star ate my Hampster, allegedly" could get you sued by Freddy Starr, and by the person(s) you allege made the allegation.

Jeepers can't the hamster, sue, never mind our Freiddie?

I had a post edited when I named someone who had been warned by the police for harrassing me - of course people should be warned..!
Imagine if the press couldnt name convicted criminals..

If it's dicey put it on 'Take it Outside'
Thu I suppose a frinedly forum aint the best place to air my grievances I am pursuing it legally, so I wont mention it hear again not worth it - I just wanted some payback..

I agree with your opening comment Gus (unless being Devil Advocate)


G

Anyway her name was *&^% also known as (*&%$ (sorry...ed.)

[MartinHarper]

As long as the allegation could be verified

The most recent example was some guy (who I don't know) who allegedly hurt a woman (who I don't know) by doing a drop with her when she had told him she didn't want to do drops. I suppose one could verify that she had indeed been hurt by way of a doctor's note. Still, the doctor can't verify when or how the injury was sustained, and can't verify whether she had indeed told him she didn't want to do drops.

Can such things ever be more than one person's word against another's?

[Andy McGregor]

Can such things ever be more than one person's word against another's?

There can be a 'bloody glove'.

[Andy McGregor]

Did I read that right? :what:

Surely it can't be true!! :flower:

The downside of asking every woman in the room to dance is that it is obvious if I leave someone out - so I try not to. That means I'm bound to come across the odd princess that considers she's too good for me :tears:

I would say I get turned down about every 3rd or fourth time I go dancing - I can live with it but it still hurts :tears:

[Sheepman]

In my experience, the women I consistently get turned down by are very attractive, young women :tears: I think I just have to accept that, to them, I'm an old bloke who isn't a possible boyfriend - or maybe they just don't fancy me :flower: Andy, are you sure you're asking them the right question? :devil: I'm struggling to remember the last time I got turned down by a very attractive young woman. There again maybe that's just my memory going with age, if so, don't worry, you'll soon be there too. :wink:
I would say that naming and shaming in public here is particularly unfair if the person named is not an active member, so cannot defend themselves. Of course we have recently had a case where no one was named and shamed, but the victim (Minnie M) did receive a public apology, and the culprit identified himself, which I'm sure met with general approval.

Greg

[DianaS]

The downside of asking every woman in the room to dance is that it is obvious if I leave someone out - so I try not to. That means I'm bound to come across the odd princess that considers she's too good for me :tears:

I would say I get turned down about every 3rd or fourth time I go dancing - I can live with it but it still hurts :tears:
Sometime you may get turned down cas your too good a dancer for them. I used not to dance with people who were too good because I didn't think that I'd be able to dance with them or that they would enjoy it. Imagine the emabbarrssment of being led off onto the dance floor and not being able to do a thing! :blush: There are lots of reasons why someone may turn you down, being an old foggy is just one of them :rofl:

[Gus]

I think the 'naming and shaming' of 'hotshots' is totally inappropraite. One man's hotshot is another mans top dancer ... its too subjective and MORE IMPORTANTLY its not hurting anyone!! The coves I am referring to when I started this thread are the serial sharkers who leave a trail of damaged ex-partners behind and dancers who physically damage or molest other dancers. These people ARE hurting people and I think the dance circuit would be better off without them.

As a franchsiee I would love to know who has been banned by other clubs or who have caused trouble elsewhere. Case in point, by a chance comment someone contacted me to ask about an ex-dancer from one of my clubs who was being put forward as an instructor. I was able to inform them that I had banned them from my club and why! Close escape :really:

[ChrisA]

Sometime you may get turned down cas your too good a dancer for them. I used not to dance with people who were too good because I didn't think that I'd be able to dance with them or that they would enjoy it. Imagine the emabbarrssment of being led off onto the dance floor and not being able to do a thing!
This is a very common misunderstanding to find with beginner girls, and on more than one occasion I've had to persuade (and I can be very persuasive :devil: ) beginners on to the floor who didn't think they were good enough.

But it's completely unnecessary :flower:

The better the guy, the better he's able to discern the lady's level within seconds of even walking on to the floor with her, let alone beginning to dance with her.

He should never lead a move she can't follow (so it's his fault if she doesn't), and when he leads moves he should know exactly how much clearer and earlier he needs to make that lead, than he'd need to with a more experienced follower.

And as for not enjoying it, well, there's no excuse for not enjoying it either. Beginners are great - they very rarely yank (and if they do they can be persuaded not to very easily) and they are totally open to learning.

And even for an experienced guy, there is tremendous subtlety in discerning exactly how, and in what directions he can afford to build up the complexity of what he does with a beginner during the track, to give her the maximum possible sense of "wow I didn't know I could do that" :clap: , without taking it too far and demoralising her by making her fail. :mad:

Which is why the ones that tie a beginner up in confusing knots by attempting to lead lots of complicated stuff to impress them should be strung up by their toenails and flogged :flower:

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

The coves I am referring to when I started this thread are the serial sharkers who leave a trail of damaged ex-partners behind and dancers who physically damage or molest other dancers. These people ARE hurting people and I think the dance circuit would be better off without them.

I agree with Gus. This is the 'name and shame' thread. And we're not naming anyone. We all know a person we should name, it might even be the same person at the top of everyone's list.


As a franchsiee I would love to know who has been banned by other clubs or who have caused trouble elsewhere. Case in point, by a chance comment someone contacted me to ask about an ex-dancer from one of my clubs who was being put forward as an instructor. I was able to inform them that I had banned them from my club and why! Close escape :really:


Maybe Gus's experience is an example to us. Maybe the next time we see someone welcoming a 'serial sharker' into their venue a word should be spoken, in private, into the ear of the organiser. But, that word must be spoken by someone who the organiser knows and respects, otherwise the organiser would get defensive of the decision to welcome 'Mr Shark' into his venue/event.

What I think we're talking about is whistle blowing. Let's all stand up and say "I have a whistle and I'm not afraid to use it" :waycool:

[Minnie M]

........ have recently had a case where no one was named and shamed, but the victim (Minnie M) did receive a public apology, and the culprit identified himself, which I'm sure met with general approval.


:yeah: :worthy:

[Andy McGregor]

Andy, are you sure you're asking them the right question? :devil: I'm struggling to remember the last time I got turned down by a very attractive young woman. There again maybe that's just my memory going with age, if so, don't worry, you'll soon be there too. :wink:
I would say that naming and shaming in public here is particularly unfair if the person named is not an active member, so cannot defend themselves. Of course we have recently had a case where no one was named and shamed, but the victim (Minnie M) did receive a public apology, and the culprit identified himself, which I'm sure met with general approval.

Greg

Can we have a new thread please. "Why we get turned down" might be a good title.

Now, to answer Sheepy. I think that I ask a lot more strangers than Sheepy. And a lot more beginners. And that is why I get turned down more. They either don't know the form or they don't dance with strangers. Of course, it could be that Sheepy is better looking than me :wink:

[CJ]

What I think we're talking about is whistle blowing. Let's all stand up and say "I have a whistle and I'm not afraid to use it" :waycool:

You bring the whistle, and I'll blow...

Give me an "M"

[Northants Girly]

This is a very common misunderstanding to find with beginner girls . . . . . But it's completely unnecessary :flower:

The better the guy, the better he's able to discern the lady's level within seconds of even walking on to the floor with her, let alone beginning to dance with her.

He should never lead a move she can't follow (so it's his fault if she doesn't), and when he leads moves he should know exactly how much clearer and earlier he needs to make that lead, than he'd need to with a more experienced follower. :yeah:
Exactly what I've been saying to DianaS too - good to hear the same sentiments from the other side of the fence (so to speak) :flower:

[drathzel]

You bring the whistle, and I'll blow...

Give me an "M"

M? :confused:

[Andy McGregor]

M? :confused:

'M' is the person who sends 007 on his missions. Not a person to be messed with :wink:

However, by prefixing 'Give me an ...' before a letter people are usually starting to spell something. I believe CJ is starting to spell the name of someone who he wants to blow the whistle on. But what is he blowing the whistle about? And who's whistle is it?

[Dreadful Scathe]

'M'.... I believe CJ is starting to spell the name of someone who he wants to blow the whistle on.

What is it ME ? aaaaaargh

[Mary]

You bring the whistle, and I'll blow...

Give me an "M"


:confused:

M

PS. CJ I've had to chase you half way round the flippin' room for a dance - ah, I know - I'm a stalker!! :(

[CJ]

:confused:

M

PS. CJ I've had to chase you half way round the flippin' room for a dance - (

But, hey... you were worth it!! :wink:

[CJ]

What is it ME ? aaaaaargh

Behave yourself, fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You begins with a Y!!

[Gus]

{ODA Mode ON}
Hey .... guess what ... I've found out who the REAL baddies are! The PROMOTERS :sick: Turns out that these promoters already KNOW about some of the bad boys (who also happen to be teachers) and yet still allow them to put on classes. Bit of advice ... if one of these 'so-called' teachers causes you problems ...SUE THE ORGANISER ... they have more money and are entirely culpable :grin: These bad boys could not exist if promoters put the safety of customers in front of the need to grab cash.
{ODA Mode OFF}

Sorry ... but feeling a bit aggrieved .. especially after I found out the following story.

" Female A was dancing on floor with Male A. Male A had her in a move where he was behind her in a basket type move doing a wiggle. During this move her arms were behind her and her ample chest was pushed forward. Cue Male X who walked up to her and (in front of witnesses), fondled her nipples say "I've always wanted to do that". :tears: :angry: :really: Shock allround. Male X was promptly banned but was REINSTATED as he was a friend of one of the powers that be (allegedly)!!"

Go figure!

[Diane]

That's disgusting.

I hope she slapped his face when she got her arms free, but I think I would have been too shocked to do anything.

[drathzel]

That's disgusting.

I hope she slapped his face when she got her arms free, but I think I would have been too shocked to do anything.
I would have caused a big fuss slapped his face, then promptly went into a corner to cry!

[Minnie M]

......../big snip/..... Male X was promptly banned but was REINSTATED as he was a friend of one of the powers that be (allegedly)

:mad: :angry: :mad: creeps

[Gus]

That's disgusting.

I hope she slapped his face when she got her arms free, but I think I would have been too shocked to do anything.
I want there but from what I heard I think she was just too shocked to do anything much :sad:

Question to all the orgnaisers on this Forum. Anyone want to come forward and state what background checks you carry out on instructors you bring in to run workshops/events?

I remember in the late 80s there were a series of martial arts instructors prosecuted for molesting female students under the pretense of teaching them 'close hold' techniques. I've always felt that the issues and politics of Modern Jive have closely mirrored what happened in the martial arts arena years back ... wonder if this is going to be yet another area where experiences will be shared :(

[Lou]

IMHO naming & shaming here would be a mistake.

There are a couple of examples on this thread where legal action is appropriate (for example, I'd hope that Miss A has reported Mr X for assault). Any discussion here would surely prejudice the case, and naming before any verdict would be illegal? (Plus, of course, there's that ridiculous concept of innocent unless proven guilty idea still around! :whistle: :rolleyes: )

When it comes to lesser "crimes", such as hotshotting - not everyone agrees on exactly who meets the criteria, so it's far too subjective to go naming individuals!

When it comes to naming banned individuals, it's far less clear cut. I can see what you're trying to achieve, Gus, and I know it's for the best of intentions, but it's up to the franchisee/organiser to run their club as they see fit. If they've heard rumours or accusations against a member of their club (and these things do tend to surface), then they should talk to the individual concerned, and the people making the accusations, before making up their own mind of what's best for their club. And, yes, there are unscrupulous organisers, but identifying them here won't help much as most people here already have their own viewpoint, and your average Joe punter doesn't care enough to look. The MJ world is small & most news travels without the need to post names on here.

And, of course, every story has more than one side. :)

[CJ]

And, of course, every story has more than one side. :)

You mean Mr X felt her backside as well?!?!? :eek:

[Lou]

You mean Mr X felt her backside as well?!?!? :eek:

Oi! That's not what I meant, and you know it. :angry:

[CJ]

Oi! That's not what I meant, and you know it. :angry:


Touchy!! :na:


:devil:

[Magic Hans]

...

Bit of advice ... if one of these 'so-called' teachers causes you problems ...SUE THE ORGANISER ... they have more money and are entirely culpable :grin: These bad boys could not exist if promoters put the safety of customers in front of the need to grab cash.
...


Any mileage in mentioning the venue?? .... just in passing, obviously!

!an

[Gus]

The MJ world is small & most news travels without the need to post names on here. Au contraire ... the grapevine in MJ is extremely fragmented and often prone to incorrect 'facts'. One of the 'known' villains is reviled by many but there are many people who I know who regard him as a great lad and have no idea about his dark past. Given all the circumstances I've said nothing ... but I'm taking steps to make sure that he never comes to my venues. Even that is difficult .. without public disclosure of the guys track record I don’t have physical evidence to ban him!

Not everyone wasn’t to bring court cases ... it can be very traumatic. I've had a friend who was recently abused by 4 guys on a train and was so traumatised that she is unable to press charges for fear of retribution! So how you expect a club dancer to come into the open about a known teacher? I fully agree with most of what Lou has said but I wish there was a path that could help us make the world of MJ even better and remove the very small minority of undesirables from the dance scene.

[Gadget]

Perhaps Ceroc should change the "Basket" since it's obviously open to such abuse. :devil:
{Sorry :blush:}

I don't see what makes someone think that this sort of behaviour is acceptable in any social circumstance. What did the man do? He was leading - he was in charge of her; personally I would have moved the lady out the way and behind me as his hands raised. But If I hadn't noticed the approach, then I would have released the lady and taken him into a basket, lifted and removed him from the premisis. (appologising later for any collisions on the way.) :mad:

How was the lady not able to just take her hands away?

[Lou]

I fully agree with most of what Lou has said but I wish there was a path that could help us make the world of MJ even better and remove the very small minority of undesirables from the dance scene.
I agree - but we need to be careful that it's not at the expense of even one wrongly accused person. :)

[CJ]

I agree - but we need to be careful that it's not at the expense of even one wrongly accused person. :)

so....

GUS IS A PERV

isn't the way forward then?!?!?!?

On a serious note: if I were n&s'd here, I'd be grateful for the opportunity to proclaim my innocence, apologise for any offence and relearn/drop any moves I had been doing wrong or had been getting me into trouble...

[Andy McGregor]

He was leading - he was in charge of her; personally I would have moved the lady out the way and behind me as his hands raised.

If this had happened to me I'd have thought the groper was bluffing and pretening to be a perv. But, post perving, I would have immediately confronted the guy, dragged him to the organiser and asked him why we shouldn't 'phone the police as this guy had just sexually assaulted a woman :angry:

[Lou]

so....

GUS IS A PERV

isn't the way forward then?!?!?!?...
:rofl:


On a serious note: if I were n&s'd here, I'd be grateful for the opportunity to proclaim my innocence, apologise for any offence and relearn/drop any moves I had been doing wrong or had been getting me into trouble...
Ahh... but what if the named person wasn't a forumite?

[Gus]

I would have immediately confronted the guy, dragged him to the organiser and asked him why we shouldn't 'phone the police as this guy had just sexually assaulted a woman :angry:I think we would all like to react in this way ... but experience is that most people just dont want to make a fuss ... look at all the assaults on public transport where other passengers 'see nothing' and do nothing.

In a way I'm sorry I started this thread because it does make it sound like the MJ scene is replete of bounders and parvs .... ITS NOT!! My main issue was a question as to how best to deal with the small number of no-marks who are in MJ. My personal view is that franchises/venue managers are not doing enough and simply dont care. I would LOVE for some one to prove me wrong on this :sick: We can all recount incidents where those in charge have failed to act on complaints. That is not to say we go down the route of 'guilty unless proven innocent'. All accusations have to be dealt with in a controlled and fair way ... but they at least have to be considered in the first place. Is that too much to ask?

[Andy McGregor]

My main issue was a question as to how best to deal with the small number of no-marks who are in MJ. My personal view is that franchises/venue managers are not doing enough and simply dont care. I would LOVE for some one to prove me wrong on this :sick: We can all recount incidents where those in charge have failed to act on complaints. That is not to say we go down the route of 'guilty unless proven innocent'. All accusations have to be dealt with in a controlled and fair way ... but they at least have to be considered in the first place. Is that too much to ask?

I agree with Gus. There are some guys out there who take advantage of our better nature. What would be ideal would be the MJ equivalent of a 'Sex offenders register'. But how would you get onto it, off it, who would put you there, etc? For now, I think the best we can expect is that organisers are forced into creating and adopting the MJ equivalent of a school bullying policy.

For instance, a while back at BFFF, some nutter was doing drops on a very busy floor - probably too busy for safe dancing without drops! I actually had to pull my partner back before she tripped over a woman who had her head at knee height. I had a word with the guy and told him that what I thought he was doing was dangerous. He told me to get stuffed! So I told Franco. Some time later I spotted this guy doing the same thing so I collared Franco about it: he said that he'd told Nigel. I told Franco that I believed he would be liable for compensation if anyone was injured as he'd been told about a problem and done nothing about it. THAT got Franco's attention and he sorted it out very quickly ...

I would like to see a suggested policy on the following.

Drops/Airsteps
Perving
Violence

I think the policy should set out very clearly what the venue owner will do if someone does any of these things. But, I think that the policy shouldn't be provided to everyone. A note on flyers saying something like 'This venue operates a policy regarding inappropriate moves and violence. Please speak to the door person if you would like to see a copy'.

[Lynn]

My main issue was a question as to how best to deal with the small number of no-marks who are in MJ. I think these issues need to be raised, and possible action considered, in advance of incidents occuring, as it sounds like when something does happen that everyone is too shocked, or doesn't want to make a fuss, to do anything at the time. If organiser have a policy then at least there is something to follow.

I don't think this forum is a place for public naming and shaming, and I think that there is a risk of spreading information about someone unfairly, and there can be other means to 'warn' people than on a public thread.

So IMO action is needed on two levels
- for organisers to have a policy on how to handle dangerous or abusive incidents/people
- for dancers (esp women) to warn each other about a 'known offender' so that women can be on their guard. Also if anyone sees an incident, don't ignore it, ask the person if they are OK, offer to go with them to the organiser to report it etc.

[Gus]

So IMO action is needed on two levels
- for organisers to have a policy on how to handle dangerous or abusive incidents/people
- for dancers (esp women) to warn each other about a 'known offender' so that women can be on their guard. Also if anyone sees an incident, don't ignore it, ask the person if they are OK, offer to go with them to the organiser to report it etc. :yeah: Yup ... I go with that.

[DianaS]

So IMO action is needed on two levels
- for organisers to have a policy on how to handle dangerous or abusive incidents/people
- for dancers (esp women) to warn each other about a 'known offender' so that women can be on their guard. Also if anyone sees an incident, don't ignore it, ask the person if they are OK, offer to go with them to the organiser to report it etc.
I've found that women are really good at this, but also really appreciate the support and advice that guys have given me and my friends, it's not only helpful and supportive but enables me to see things from "the other side" so to speak!

[stewart38]

My personal view is that franchises/venue managers are not doing enough and simply dont care. I would LOVE for some one to prove me wrong on this :sick: We can all recount incidents where those in charge have failed to act on complaints. That is not to say we go down the route of 'guilty unless proven innocent'. All accusations have to be dealt with in a controlled and fair way ... but they at least have to be considered in the first place. Is that too much to ask?

A guy in the last few months was banned at a avenue I attend and in fact the teacher at the time made an announcement to the fact and that she had received a number of complaints. She went on to say be considerate of a women’s space etc etc

This led to the standard 'guessing who he was' and my theory was wrong as the guy I thought it was there next week.

It an old point but its up to the women/man who gets punched groped etc and organiser I would guess can only act on a series of complaints.