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Gus
2nd-November-2002, 05:22 AM
This thread is NOT intended to be controversial ... just interested in others opinions

Having had a week or so of New Zealand Ceroc, its rather got me thinking about previous concersations about int v advanced dancers and whether Ceroc should be for dancing and/or social.

My brief observation about Ceroc down here is that the focus is very much more on the dancing rather than the social. They have beginner, intermediate and advanced lessons and the lessons are llnger, with about 6/8 moves per session. There is a far greater preponderance of drops and they seem overall to take their dancing more seriously ... and that shows in the finished result.

Thinking back to the UK ... the biggest difficuly that advanced dancers is finding other advanced dancers to practice with. For social dancing, no probs ... lots of lovely dancers countrywide ... BUT, if you want to take your dancing seriously, where do you do? There are bno advanced classes, few workshops and at a freestyle event, how many dancers are there that you can do you most complex/interpretative moves to. The ladies have a far harder time of it. My dance partner feels she needs to get down to London and Rock Bottoms to get her 'fix' of good dancers.

Coming back to music, my personal view is (and please feel free to flame me if you think I'm wrong) is that the vast majority of dancers basicaly do moves to the music, whereas only the minority of dancer really interpret the music and DANCE accordingly. This is no more clearer than when a blues or jazz track comes on. The floor can clear leaving just the really experienecd daners making something of what can be a complex beat structure. As a DJ I would love to put on more complex tracks ... e.g. "Talking all that Jazz" ... but I know that 70% of dancers won't enjoy it.

So ... is any of the above making any sense or am I just setting myslef up to be labelled an elitest saddoo ... again.:wink:

Just as a last point, as a teacher doing the Kiwi advanced (and some intermediate) classes ... its been refreshing to be part of a class again finding it hard to do moves, doing them wrong, forgetting the sequence and been corrected by my partner ..... reminds you what its like for people in your class ...

Ash
2nd-November-2002, 03:58 PM
You make a lot of sense!

the vast majority of dancers basicaly do moves to the music, whereas only the minority of dancer really interpret the music and DANCE accordingly.

I think most people donÕt really listen to the music. It wouldnÕt matter if the track was latin, pop, swing... At the same time I suppose it doesnÕt matter as whatÕs important is having a good time and enjoying yourself. (Is it more fun here, Gus, than New Zealand?)

But where do you go if you want to push yourself??? There arenÕt many dancers, for example, that you can do complex/interpretative moves with at a typical freestyle night.

You would assume that people would actually DANCE in the advanced competitionsÉbut the musical interpretation is mostly poor and a lot of dancers have set moves they would use regardless of the music. It reminds me of Ice Dance where you see lots of couples dancing through big chunks of the music.

IÕm sure youÕll tell me what you think!!

:D

flashy
2nd-November-2002, 04:32 PM
That's why I do swing - because it's all about musicality, lead and follow, interpretation of the music, tension, style, expression . . . that's dancing!! Swing takes longer to grasp, but the end results are far more impressive than modern jive or ceroc. It's an individual thing I suppose. Most swing dancers in the U.K. are at a higher level in my opinion, and take dancing much more seriously (perhaps too much at times). I also find swing very different to lead generally: women really just need a hint- a 'suggestion'- about where you want them to go, unlike jive where they often expect a strong lead. I am glad to read that there are some new swing nights starting up in Edinburgh.

Jon
2nd-November-2002, 06:26 PM
Ceroc isn't ment to be serious, it's surposed to be fun and social. Although I agree wih Gus in that there are beginner and intermediate classes but nothing usually for advanced dancers. Although some of the London venues have started adding in the odd advanced move into the intermediate class. There are lots of workshops around though!

As for finding advanced people to dance with, in certain venues in London just look near the stage, but thats another thread!

And Gus when you say that the dance floor clears when the dj puts Blues songs on I only wish they played them more often as I like the space!:grin:

Gus
3rd-November-2002, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by flashy
That's why I do swing - because it's all about musicality, lead and follow, interpretation of the music, tension, style, expression . ...but the end results are far more impressive than modern jive or ceroc.

Interesting cvomment ... but having seen the top swing and the top cerocers in the UK I would say niether is better than the other ... just different ways of dancing. Or have you a 'champion' team that you think are better dancers than Viktor and Lydia (not being aggresive .. just an honest question)

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-November-2002, 03:58 AM
I wouldnt agree that the end result of swing dancing is always much better to watch than modern jive.

I'd say theres more jive dancers around but less advanced jive dancers, but thats partly because its much easier to get to a impressive level of jive dancing (having tried lindy hop i can safely say Jive is FAR easier for me)- so theres loads of people at that level and less at the really advanced level. When you do see really advanced jivers though - such as at advanced competition level - they are amazing. Its more a case of numbers doing the dancing and the difficulty level of the style - someone correct me if Im way off the mark here ! :confused: ;)

DavidB
3rd-November-2002, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by flashy
That's why I do swing - because it's all about musicality, lead and follow, interpretation of the music, tension, style, expression . . . that's dancing!! Swing takes longer to grasp, but the end results are far more impressive than modern jive or ceroc. It's an individual thing I suppose. Most swing dancers in the U.K. are at a higher level in my opinion, and take dancing much more seriously (perhaps too much at times). I also find swing very different to lead generally: women really just need a hint- a 'suggestion'- about where you want them to go, unlike jive where they often expect a strong lead.I don't see any difference between the standard of swing dancing and jive in the UK. The end results are exactly the same - people have fun, they feel good, but they look the same. The beginners look the same, the intermediates look the same, and the advanced dancers look the same. With the exception of Ryan & Jenny, no-one looks world class (ie when someone gets to the same technical and artistic level as the best dancers in the world.)

There may be (as DS suggests) a larger percentage of swing dancers getting to an 'advanced' level compared to jivers. As you say there are more swing dancers take dancing seriously.

Lindy and West Coast Swing are definitely harder dances to learn than jive, simply because they have footwork and a particular style. But every criteria that you consider to make up dancing (musicality, lead and follow, interpretation of the music, tension, style, expression) applies just as much to jive as it does to swing.

Whether or not you prefer Lindy, or jive, or WCS is entirely up to you. (I personally prefer WCS to jive.) But none of them have anything unique that makes them a better dance than the others.


I also find swing very different to lead generally: women really just need a hint- a 'suggestion'- about where you want them to go, unlike jive where they often expect a strong lead.There are significant differences in the lead in the different styles of dance. WCS is a leverage dance. Jive is all about changing from leverage to compression and back. Hustle is a compression dance. (I'm not really sure about Lindy???) But once you understand the differences, then there are a lot of similarities - you need a connection, the lady follows her hand, a small lead can give a big movement etc.

Unfortunately there are a lot of leaders in jive who don't really understand what they are doing.


I am glad to read that there are some new swing nights starting up in Edinburgh.So am I - as long as people enjoy their dancing, I don't care what style they do.

David

Gus
3rd-November-2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Jon
Ceroc isn't ment to be serious, it's surposed to be fun and social

Not sure that I agree with that statement. There is no doubt that for the majority of dancers, Ceroc is just a gentle dance and a social pastime. However, there are increasing amounts of cerocers who do take it seriously and want to progress.

Gadget
3rd-November-2002, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Coming back to music, my personal view that the vast majority of dancers basicaly do moves to the music, whereas only the minority of dancer really interpret the music and DANCE accordingly

The same move can be performed in many different ways; it is up to the dancers as to how to perform the move and which style fits the music. Is it not part of the dancer's skill to select the style that match the music or the feel of the music? The actual moves don't really come into it.

As someone in another post pointed out, some people are better to dance with to style X, but not as good with style Y - In my opinion, the best dancers are ones who change the style of the moves to flow with the music - not so much the technical aspects or complexities of the moves themselves.
Example: You can look at a couple on the dance floor and think "that looked good", then realise that it was a simple man-spin, but executed with attitude or style that matched the music perfectly.

The point of Ceroc being 'Social' or 'Serious' dancing is also a mute one; I think that the difference seen is more to do with the learning process: the more 'serious' dancers will go over and over a move untill it clicks with them, the 'social' dancers will do the same, spread out over weeks/months instead of with as much focus.
This does result in a slower advancement in skill level, but gives a more relaxed approach to the whole thing, and if a move is not working for a 'social' dancer, they will drop it until they have had a bit more experiance and try it again when somthing reminds them of it.

I am curious as to the difference between 'intermediate' and 'advanced' moves - perhaps once a month(?) there could be a class that did intermediate followed by advanced classes {as opposed to novice/intermediate} where the teaching slots were slightly longer ?

DavidB
3rd-November-2002, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I am curious as to the difference between 'intermediate' and 'advanced' movesVery good point. What exactly is an 'advanced' move?

David

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-November-2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
What exactly is an 'advanced' move?



basically anything I cant do :)


Similar to the Gardners question of 'what is a weed?' - anything you dont like the look of :)

Franck
3rd-November-2002, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Very good point. What exactly is an 'advanced' move?I agree, not a very easy distinction to make. Anything beyond your current abilities, or just within reach, might be considered advanced, but then where do you draw a general line.

Using the current Ceroc classification of moves, there are about 24 Beginners moves. All easy enough to be taugh and learnt on a first night.
After that, there are about 430 Intermediate moves! This is where the distinction becomes problematic. Many of the (so-called) intermediate moves are easy enough that they could have been classified as Beginners moves, but we had to select only a few to keep the Beginners class manageable.
Some of the Intermediate moves however are much harder, and require a level of experience over and above the usual, just to get them. Those could be called advanced, but as Gadget points out, one man's tricky move is another's favourite easy move.
The last 50 or so moves, are classified Red / Orange, because they should not be taught in normal classes, either because they are too difficult (or even time-consuming to teach), or because they are not safe to teach in a large class. Those again (mostly lifts / drops / etc...) are also advanced!

This is all moot, because at the end of the day, you can make the most basic of Beginners moves as advanced as you like by adding style, footwork, etc... to it! :nice:

Franck.

Jayne
4th-November-2002, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Gus


Not sure that I agree with that statement. There is no doubt that for the majority of dancers, Ceroc is just a gentle dance and a social pastime. However, there are increasing amounts of cerocers who do take it seriously and want to progress.

Personally I think it would be wrong to reduce the social aspect of ceroc and replace it with "something more serious". For me the whole thing about ceroc is that it's a (relatively) easy dance that I can do in a number of places around the country and gives me an opportunity to go out and meet people. I think that's the real strength of ceroc and we shouldn't loose sight of that. At the same time I would also say that I belong to the "cerocers who do take it seriously and want to progress" but absolutely NOT at the expense of loosing the social/relaxed feel to it. I'll try style tips and playing with different styles of dancing to do this..

As many of you know I started out in Ballroom and I was fortunate enough to find a school with a ceroc mentality - they would teach you to get up on a floor, dance and sit down again. If you wanted more you could find it, but that was pretty much the empasis of the class - pretty much as ceroc is. Then when I went to Uni I joined the Ballroom team. BIG mistake. Insted of being encouraged to get up and give it a go I'd be coched for an hour not to hold my thumb at a 45degree angle, it should be vertical. I gave it up and didn't dance for two years. So as an old wisened voice of experience (:wink: :wink: :wink: :what: ) I'd say that maybe the occasional advanced workshop should be there for people who really want to take their dancing in that direction (I was going to say up a level, but I don't think that's true) but on the whole I think ceroc should leave its emphasis where it is - enjoy the dance!

There, that was my tuppenceworth!

Jayne
:nice:

DavidB
4th-November-2002, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
Personally I think it would be wrong to reduce the social aspect of ceroc and replace it with "something more serious".I enjoy the more technical and serious side of dancing, but I hope nobody thinks that I would want to reduce the social side, just to make it more serious. There is no point in learning how to dance better if there is no-one to dance with!


Then when I went to Uni I joined the Ballroom team. BIG mistake. Insted of being encouraged to get up and give it a go I'd be coched for an hour not to hold my thumb at a 45degree angle, it should be vertical.I was on the Ballroom team for 3 years. I learnt a lot, had a great time, met Lily, but didn't learn to dance. But now I find that the little bits that I can remember are very useful, and I wish I had the time and the money to get some more lessons.

I don't think advanced classes should be a part of a normal class night. But there may be enough demand for something more than the occasional workshop.

David

Gadget
5th-November-2002, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
There is no point in learning how to dance better if there is no-one to dance with!
Really? Should it matter just how advanced your partner is? Just because they are less experienced or not as good a dancer as you, does this mean that you don't dance as well? Do you lower your game?

I admit that jumps, dips etc. cannot be done with people who are beginners and have no idea of what to expect, but once a person loses the 'beginner' status, they should be able to follow any well executed move. Does the quality of your partner's dancing really make any difference to the quality of yours?

(I suspect that advanced followers actually do have to play down their level for the less advanced leaders and do occasionally look for better dancers in order to get a chance to be led into advanced moves.YesNo?)

Bill
5th-November-2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Does the quality of your partner's dancing really make any difference to the quality of yours?

(I suspect that advanced followers actually do have to play down their level for the less advanced leaders and do occasionally look for better dancers in order to get a chance to be led into advanced moves.YesNo?) The answer to the first part is clearly yes !:rolleyes: Just look at what happens at Lucky Dip comps when an experienced dancer gets a less experienced dancer. It may not always affect the 'quality' of the dancer but someone who doesn't follow that well can break the rhythm of a song or miss beats and so the moves attempted and style may alter.

Equally a good woman may find it difficult to maintain a level of 'quality' if her partner is not leading or dancing off the pace while she expects to be led on the beat :sick: :tears: difficult to lok good if you are being hauled round doing moves that are not being led well !

Not sure about the second question.

DavidB
5th-November-2002, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Really? Should it matter just how advanced your partner is? Just because they are less experienced or not as good a dancer as you, does this mean that you don't dance as well? Do you lower your game?I meant that if you take away the social side of Ceroc, you could end up with something similar to the competitive side of Ballroom, where a large number of people only dance with their partners. If you went by yourself, there would literally be 'no-one' to dance with.

But is is a good question. I think the answer is yes - I will dance differently depending on the lady. At its extreme I wouldn't lead a beginner into breaks, and I wouldn't dance with a teacher doing nothing but first moves and yoyos. It has nothing to do with how I compare to them.

The only assumption I make when I ask someone to dance is that they can keep time. (And even if they can't I will still try to dance). Everything else I try to find out - can they follow basic moves, more advanced moves, variations they probably haven't seen before? Do they like spinning, or improvising? Do they like a light lead, or do I need to supply more energy than I'm used to? Do they listen to the music themselves? Do they notice if I do or don't? Do they do anything unusual?

It takes at least half a song to get a rough idea of what to do. I find I get into trouble as soon as I make any other assumptions.

I hope it doesn't affect the quality of my dancing, just the variety. (My dancing is not good enough to be able to lower the quality!)

David

Jon
5th-November-2002, 11:02 PM
I agree with everything DavidB just said but I find my style most definately changes depending on who I'm dancing with.

I can't really put it into words but I think theres a comfort factor in there as well. So if I'm dancing with someone I know well then I'm relaxed and my style reflects this in the moves that I do i.e. making moves longer, interpreting the music more and just looking relaxed. But with a beginner or someone I haven't danced with before I'll probably just stick to beginner/easy intermediate ceroc moves with none or very little personal style until I get used to my partner.

Gus
6th-November-2002, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Gadget

Should it matter just how advanced your partner is? Just because they are less experienced or not as good a dancer as you, does this mean that you don't dance as well? Do you lower your game?

Interesting point. Personal view is that the best dances I've had are a factor of two points; 1) Who good my partner is, 2) How well our style meld. I've danced with some awesome dancers ... but not felt comfortable with each other and so didn't really enjoy the experienece. I've also messed about with some dancers who really haven't got a clue but have had a great time.

However, I tend to find now that the really good dancers can help you move your dance enjoyment onto another level. I'm extremely fortunate that my dance partner is one of the best in the North and she makes it relatively easy to get real feeling and passion into the dance. I've had similar dances with the likes of Lydia, Nina and Heather.... on the odd occaision when I've managed not to be intimidated by their repatations (which is iroic considering I used to stand on stage week in telling everyone else that you should ask ANYONE to dance, regardless of how good they are :sick: )

I'm not saying that your partner has to be advanced for you to have a good dance but 'it helps to improve your game':wink: If you were entering a tennis tournament, would you play better with a #1.99 racket from Woolies or a #500 state of the art racket custom made?

PS ... despite what I've said above, I would be strongly against any move that would see the 'serious dance' aspect of Ceroc become dominant over the social and fun aspect.

Gadget
6th-November-2002, 01:58 PM
On a similar note of style and advanced dancers: I've been thinking on some advice given to me last night and have come to the conclusion that when dancing with a lady of higher ability, I tend to not lead as strongly. This results in less tension in the arms between us, which leads to dancing a fraction too far apart and with straighter arms than 'normal'. This makes catching clumsier, makes me cover more space and the dance looks/feels poor.

So while your dancing may improve with better dancers, I find mine deteriorates !!:what:

There is obviously a fine balance between gently guiding your partner and shoving them about the dance floor - and this depends on the partner you are dancing with. But a question for the (experienced) followers/teachers; what is too much, and what is too little?

Bill
6th-November-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Interesting point. Personal view is that the best dances I've had are a factor of two points; 1) Who good my partner is, 2) How well our style meld

If you were entering a tennis tournament, would you play better with a #1.99 racket from Woolies or a #500 state of the art racket custom made?Agree entirely ( again !) ..........it can be great fun dancing with a relatively new dancer because there is no expectation and if it goes wrong well...so what. I have found that I have higher expectaitions when dancing with regular partners to music I really like and I think Avril, Laura and Fran all know that sometimes these expectaitons can be too high :sorry :sick:

And as you say Gus, you can dance with a great female dancer but because you're styles don't match it doesn't click so it's not so much fun.

AS for the tennis analogy............for me it wouldn't make any difference and being an Aberdonian I wouldn't pay that much for a raquet anyway :D :rolleyes: Think of all the CD's you could buy for £500................:cheers:

Dancing Veela
6th-November-2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I don't think advanced classes should be a part of a normal class night. But there may be enough demand for something more than the occasional workshop.

David

David, I don't agree with you here - I think this is one of the reasons we lose some of the good dancers, the good dancers often get bored with the normal class nights because they aren't being taught anything new.

Also if you can only manage to go to one dance THING a week - and you can't go to weekend workshops you might hope to be able to improve your dancing at a dance CLASS (a normal class night).

Jon
6th-November-2002, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela


David, I don't agree with you here - I think this is one of the reasons we lose some of the good dancers, the good dancers often get bored with the normal class nights because they aren't being taught anything new.

Totally agree with this. But how could advanced dancing be added into a normal ceroc class. After all theres usually just 1 teacher and 1 stage!

Gadget
6th-November-2002, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Jon
Totally agree with this. But how could advanced dancing be added into a normal ceroc class. After all theres usually just 1 teacher and 1 stage!
I think that this is already being addressed; I've noticed that there have been more 'style' and technique points being inserted into the classes over the past few weeks. Although this may be a local phenominom (do do de do-do)?

Gus
6th-November-2002, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Jon


Totally agree with this. But how could advanced dancing be added into a normal ceroc class. After all theres usually just 1 teacher and 1 stage!

The increasingly common model is to make one class, say the first each month, have an advanced class rather than an intermediate class. As the 'advanced' element usualy revolevs around style and/or footwork rather than actual move, most people can do the class though they may not pick up all the intracacies (yeah ... I know, spelt wrong)



Originally posted by Dancin Veela

.David, I don't agree with you here - I think this is one of the reasons we lose some of the good dancers, the good dancers often get bored with the normal class nights because they aren't being taught anything new.

Also if you can only manage to go to one dance THING a week - and you can't go to weekend workshops you might hope to be able to improve your dancing at a dance CLASS (a normal class night).

Interesting point. In one of the NZ workshops the instructor made it clear that it was only a matter of time and practice to get from Intermediate to Advanced levels. I think he quoted that with 'just' dancing twice a week it would take 2/3 years ... dancing 3 times a week and practicing for 2 hours a week it could be done in about 12 months. Don't know if I totaly agree but the concept of practicing moves is interesting ... most people seem to get out of that habit after the first 3 or 4 weeks of ceroc ... or do they?

Bill
7th-November-2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Gus


but the concept of practicing moves is interesting ... most people seem to get out of that habit after the first 3 or 4 weeks of ceroc ... or do they?

Yes I think they ( I ?) do. We all practice for a while but then as we learn more moves we rarely practice them because there isn't time and when we do dance it's to learn more moves and to dance freestyle.

I think the only time I've practiced moves is just before a competition - trying to get them right and add what style I can ( my partners are always more stylish than me:sad: :tears: ) - which is a waste really as I forget them all when the music starts :eek: :sick:

If anyone was serious about improving then I think finding a aprtner and walking through moves for a couple of hours every week would help improve their range of moves, their confidence and possibly their style. But how many dancers have the time/energy/opportunity to do this ?

I suppose in the first year or two of Ceroc in Aberdeen a bunch of us went to a nightclub and danced for an hour or two going over the moves we had learned - and those we could remember. It's perhaps no coincidence that those of us who did this regularly began to improve but we only had one class a week ( excpet for a couple of us who ventured down to Dundee....ah....they were good days :D :wink: ).

So practice does help but on its own probably won't develop all thestyle one would like.

Gus
7th-November-2002, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by Bill

So practice does help but on its own probably won't develop all thestyle one would like.

Coming back to a point I made in a earlier thread ... I think it may be counter-productive to pick a 'style' and then to copy it.

I think there is more milage in watching moves (including the timing, footwork, interpretation) then trying to adapt that to the way that your body works ... otherwise it can look very unnatural .... by way of illustration, can you imagine Nigel A dancing in Dan Baines hip-hop style???

Stuart M
7th-November-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Bill
We all practice for a while but then as we learn more moves we rarely practice them because there isn't time and when we do dance it's to learn more moves and to dance freestyle.

In terms of moves, I find that unless I spend most of the freestyle practicing any new moves taught, I'll forget them by next week. If I do spend that amount of time practicing, the move tends to end up being done all the time. Striking the right balance is difficult, all the more so because you want to spend the freestyle time having fun, not having to "work" at your dancing!
As to practicing style, the opportunities are even more limited. Since several aspects of style go against the way moves are taught (e.g. first move), it's not very fair to "use" less experienced dancers to practice your style points IMHO.

If anyone was serious about improving then I think finding a aprtner and walking through moves for a couple of hours every week would help improve their range of moves, their confidence and possibly their style. But how many dancers have the time/energy/opportunity to do this ?

Not to mention facilities - I don't have a floor at home I could practice on, or indeed the space.

Graham
7th-November-2002, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Stuart M

In terms of moves, I find that unless I spend most of the freestyle practicing any new moves taught, I'll forget them by next week. If I do spend that amount of time practicing, the move tends to end up being done all the time. Striking the right balance is difficult, all the more so because you want to spend the freestyle time having fun, not having to "work" at your dancing!
As to practicing style, the opportunities are even more limited. Since several aspects of style go against the way moves are taught (e.g. first move), it's not very fair to "use" less experienced dancers to practice your style points IMHO.

Not to mention facilities - I don't have a floor at home I could practice on, or indeed the space.

Congratulations on your 100th post Stuart - I take it you decided against interesting in the end? :wink: :grin: :devil:

I disagree a little with your style practice point - there are a number of things which it's perfectly reasonable to try on less experienced dancers, provided it doesn't rely on them doing something different - for example, the shoulder roll thing.

Bill
7th-November-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Gus


by way of illustration, can you imagine Nigel A dancing in Dan Baines hip-hop style???

Oh yes.............:D :p ........what fun that would be .........Dan to dance as Viktor; Nigel to dance as Dan; Viktor to dance as .... ???

A changing places comp with a difference !!! :wink: :grin:

Who could you dance as Gus?????

Gordon J Pownall
13th-November-2002, 01:33 AM
Back to the thread tho' guys,

do you not think that by introducing a definition of 'advanced move' or 'advanced class', it will form an elite of dancers or a clique at venues where certain people may only turn up for the 'advanced' part of the evening.

Back when Iwere a lad (well, beginner), I do remember feeling a little intimidated by those dancers, men and ladies, that seemed to dance with each other, displaying all manner of fantastic moves that I wanted to do but felt unable to.

As a teacher, it always remains in my mind that I have to cater not only for those dancers who are experienced enough for the more complex or technical moves, but for those that are in the intermediate class for the first time.

Most beginners, including myself, felt it daunting moving on to the intermediate class and this is where taxi dancers play a pivotal role in enouraging the beginner and feeding back to the teacher.

You could argue that this warrants the introduction of an advanced class although I personally feel that a good franchisee in Ceroc will take account of the needs of the 'regulars' and offer appropriate workshops that both stimulate and challenge those dancers looking for a little bit more than the intermediate class.

Choice of moves and knowing your class goes a long way to ensure that dancefloor snobbery remains minimal and that the theme adn level of the moves taught, as well as the style and interpretation of the music makes the evening enjoyable and personally rewarding.

I guess it's giving each person in the class, no matter what the level of experience, that sense of achievement at the end of the evening. That feeling that something new has been learnt or something has been added to you as a dancer.

Then again - it's a personal thing....

:cheers:

Gadget
13th-November-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Gordon J Pownall
~snip: can't be bothered editing - read it yourself~
But if you have a workshop, rather than a class, you are more likley to form those 'elite' groups; only those attending would be in on the advanced moves being tried. At least in a class situation, everyone knows what you are attempting, and you get some freestyle to try and blend the moves into your existing repertoir.
I still think that the idea of having a night, perhaps once a month or so (not on the same night as the regular classes) in the same format, but raised a level would be a good idea.

Stuart M
13th-November-2002, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Gordon J Pownall
Most beginners, including myself, felt it daunting moving on to the intermediate class and this is where taxi dancers play a pivotal role in enouraging the beginner and feeding back to the teacher.

When I taxied, the pattern with beginners in their first couple of classes was usually A) Do the Beginner's lesson, B) run through the moves for ten minutes with the taxis, C) go home. It was very difficult to persuade them to stick around. Possibly I've missed out B2, which was "See the demo of the intermediate class, go :what:, then C)...
To beginners who stayed around until the intermediate class, I would try to point out that most of the intermediate moves were just elaborations on the basics, which seemed to relax them a bit.

Maybe a little protocol which would help would be to ensure that every intermediate class, contains a move which is related to a basic move. Statistically I'd reckon it's difficult to avoid this anyway! :)


Originally posted by Gadget
But if you have a workshop, rather than a class, you are more likley to form those 'elite' groups; only those attending would be in on the advanced moves being tried. At least in a class situation, everyone knows what you are attempting, and you get some freestyle to try and blend the moves into your existing repertoir.
[/B]
Good point, Gadget. Maybe another argument for replacing one intermediate move each class with a style tip - it would help "demystify" the Style aspect of dancing, whilst also acting as a bit of a shop window for Style workshops :grin: .

Graham
13th-November-2002, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Gadget

But if you have a workshop, rather than a class, you are more likley to form those 'elite' groups; only those attending would be in on the advanced moves being tried.
I understand your point but profoundly disagree. Whether advanced means difficult moves or style points, there are only going to be a handful of people you can actually use them with (because they need to be both interested and capable of doing so), regardless of whether you learn them in a class or a workshop. The difference is that with a workshop you will have a very good idea of who these people are. I also strongly object to the suggestion that just because there are only some people that I will try particular moves with, I am some kind of dancing snob - I will still dance with everyone, but will not confuse or potentially injure them by doing something they're not used to.


I still think that the idea of having a night, perhaps once a month or so (not on the same night as the regular classes) in the same format, but raised a level would be a good idea. Isn't this just an evening workshop?????

Gus
13th-November-2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Graham

I understand your point but profoundly disagree. Whether advanced means difficult moves or style points, there are only going to be a handful of people you can actually use them with

Fair comment. I know its difficult to define an 'advanced' move but one that does some to mind is the Accordion Pull Comb Crab (or whatever the heck its called). I've seen it taught about half a dozen times and is you define success as 90% of the punters doing it properly by the end of the class, never succesfully. Thats the type of move I would use for an advanced lesson.

Coming back to an earlier point, would people who have mastered this move and similar be classed as an elite?

DavidB
13th-November-2002, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Gus
I know its difficult to define an 'advanced' move but one that does some to mind is the Accordion Pull Comb Crab (or whatever the heck its called). I've seen it taught about half a dozen times and is you define success as 90% of the punters doing it properly by the end of the class, never succesfully. Thats the type of move I would use for an advanced lesson.Now I would teach a yoyo to an advanced class. Complicated moves are just more moves to forget. Learning how and why to do things a particular way is what makes an advanced dancer.
Now how many people would turn up to an advanced class that taught basics - probably very few, if any.

David

Gadget
13th-November-2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Isn't this just an evening workshop?????
{I have only been to a couple of workshops, so these comments may be miles off...}
I think that a 'class' is more relaxed and less focused after the actual teaching bit; the freestyle dancing is where you put into practice the moves learned from the workshop/lesson. There is a lot less of this bit in a workshop. (And so it should be - the workshop is for focusing on a concept, a class is for general improvement)


Originally posted by Gus
Coming back to an earlier point, would people who have mastered this move and similar be classed as an elite?
I think that you can only class someone as an 'elitist' or a 'dance snob' by there actions off the dance floor
- if they only select partners that they know are advanced or dance with all the time.
- if they ever refuse a dance without good reason (esp with a beginner)
- if they tut & jeer at dancers on the floor from the sidelines, or make derogatory comments about another dancers style/ability.

I don't think that I've found anyone dancing in Scotland that matches the criteria above, no matter how advanced they are.
(Or did you mean 'elite' as in above 'advanced' level?)

Gus
13th-November-2002, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Now I would teach a yoyo to an advanced class. Complicated moves are just more moves to forget. Learning how and why to do things a particular way is what makes an advanced dancer.
Now how many people would turn up to an advanced class that taught basics - probably very few, if any.

David

I totaly agree with you, but commercaily I don't think it would work. If I advertised advanced classes which would focus on beginners moves the class size would probably be an integer less than 1.

Back to an earlier conversation, though 80% of experinced dancers would probably greatly benefit from 'going back to basics', I'd bet that few recognise that fact. When I went for coaching with Roger Chin much of it was focused round 'beginner moves' ... and I was amazed (and dismayed) at how much work I need to do on them.

Dreadful Scathe
13th-November-2002, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Gus


the class size would probably be an integer less than 1.


damn you. my computer just tried to work that out and exploded. :really:

Gus
13th-November-2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


damn you. my computer just tried to work that out and exploded. :really:

Easier way to make computer explode ... just 'upgrade' to Windows Me:reallymad :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

ALL COMPUTERS ARE EVIL AND MICROSOFT MUST DIE DIE DIE


Sorry ...... having a few 'technology' issues.:sick:

Franck
13th-November-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Gus
ALL COMPUTERS ARE EVIL AND MICROSOFT MUST DIE DIE DIENow seems like a good time to suggest this (http://www.apple.com/imac/) maybe? :wink:

and instead of your minidisc player for back-up, I have been using that! (http://www.apple.com/ipod/)
Now even available for Windows... :sick:

Franck. :nice:

CJ
13th-November-2002, 03:27 PM
Hey guys.

I've got Windows Me and my computer runs fine. I never have any prob

Graham
14th-November-2002, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Gadget

{I have only been to a couple of workshops, so these comments may be miles off...}
I think that a 'class' is more relaxed and less focused after the actual teaching bit; the freestyle dancing is where you put into practice the moves learned from the workshop/lesson. There is a lot less of this bit in a workshop. (And so it should be - the workshop is for focusing on a concept, a class is for general improvement)
I agree that freestyle dancing is where you practise new things. However, workshops are far more effective at teaching you new things properly than the class is, because the teacher can usually spend more time watching each individual and correcting their mistakes. The problem with learning things in a normal ceroc class is that it's very easy to pick something up incorrectly, and then you just reinforce your bad habit when you practise. I have no idea what you're on about with the concept comment.


Originally posted by Gadget
- if they tut & jeer at dancers on the floor from the sidelines.
Are you serious? Have you ever seen anyone doing this?


or make derogatory comments about another dancers style/ability
Personally I see no problem with this: if other people want to slag off my dancing, then it doesn't bother me (assuming they're not doing it over the PA!). After all, it can't be anything worse than I hear from Wendy! :wink: ......at least I hope not!!! :sick: :wink:

Graham
14th-November-2002, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


damn you. my computer just tried to work that out and exploded. :really:
Actually there are an infinite number of integers less than one, but only one of these is a possible value for the attendance at a workshop.

Gus
14th-November-2002, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Graham
I agree that freestyle dancing is where you practise new things. However, workshops are far more effective at teaching you new things properly than the class is, because the teacher can usually spend more time watching each individual and correcting their mistakes.

Yup ... you ask Franck or amy teacher who runs a Cerocshop, especially the beginners one. Ignoring all other workshops, I think the beginners workshop is the most important things any dancer can do. I chanllenge ANY dancer of this forum to go back and do a beginners cerocshop and not learn something.

As for most worshops, as long as the class size is on the smallers size, it gives the instructor time to look at each individual couple and show the right way. There are some moves where there is no subsitiute for actualy dancing the move through with each of the partners so that they pick up the rythem, positon and subtilties of the move you're trying to teach.

For drop/aerials courses ... you HAVE to teach small numbers, if only from a safety perspective.

Gadget
14th-November-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Graham
The problem with learning things in a normal ceroc class is that it's very easy to pick something up incorrectly, and then you just reinforce your bad habit when you practice.
Point taken, but if the night is advertised as "Intermediate/Advanced", then I would hope that the attendees would be of sufficient level that they can pick up the moves correctly. (assuming that it is being taught well ;) :grin: ) <- sarcasm {just in case:innocent:}
I would not expect any complex aerials or 'red' moves to be taught here (although I am still hazy as to the line between 'advanced' and 'intermediate').



I have no idea what you're on about with the concept comment.
Concept: Up-close & personal; Dips, leans & seducers; Style workshops; ... a workshop normally is concentrated on a specific concept or area of dancing to improve on. Classes on the other hand tend to involve four moves themed around smaller ideas; different exits to 1st move, left-handed moves, walks,...


Are you serious? Have you ever seen anyone doing this {snear & jeer}?
Not personally, but there have been a couple of postings that enforce the idea that it does happen.


if other people want to slag off my dancing, then it doesn't bother me
Nor does it bother me, but if they are slagging you off to an audience when you're not present, then that's just rude and uncivilized. People can form negative opinions about my dancing by all means, but voice them as view points or opinions - not as derogatory slagging that is solely designed for put-downs or as an attempt to demonstrate superior knowledge of 'correct' and 'incorrect'.

CJ
14th-November-2002, 01:03 PM
Hi, guys.

was just on forum to put up my playlist for Glasgow last night, but had to tell you...

Some of the moves Graham was doing last night!! Honestly, no idea what he was thinking. Has he been to a class before?:D :D :D :D :D :D

:sorry

DavidB
14th-November-2002, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
but if the night is advertised as "Intermediate/Advanced", then I would hope that the attendees would be of sufficient level that they can pick up the moves correctly.Some people will advertise intermediate workshops as advanced, just because more people will turn up. Then again most of these people would not be able to cope with a proper 'advanced' class.


... if they are slagging you off to an audience when you're not present, then that's just rude and uncivilized. People can form negative opinions about my dancing by all means, but voice them as view points or opinions - not as derogatory slagging that is solely designed for put-downs or as an attempt to demonstrate superior knowledge of 'correct' and 'incorrect'. There is a difference between criticising people, and slagging them off. I will spend quite a lot of time watching other people at a freestyle. One reason is I'm too lazy to dance to every song. But I also like seeing what other people do, whether I like it or not. I'm always looking for new ideas, or things to avoid doing. (Criticising might be the wrong word, as it implies that I'm trying to find faults in their dancing. I'm not - I'm trying to improve my own dancing by seeing what other people do.)

But if I were to start telling everyone what I thought of a particular dancer, especially if I just highlighted the bad points, then that would be wrong. I don't think I've ever seen this happen, with two exceptions.
- Quite often I will hear ladies saying to avoid a particular man, because he is dangerous.
- If someone teaches or performs, then I don't see anything wrong with talking about their class or cabaret.

And of course there is nothing wrong with saying someone is good.

David

Graham
14th-November-2002, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Some of the moves Graham was doing last night!! Honestly, no idea what he was thinking.
Something along the lines of: For *$£%'s sake, what's this @#~& he's playing???????
BTW, doesn't the forum count as a form of public address?

Anyway, back to the topic - I completely agree with David.

horsey_dude
18th-November-2002, 11:00 AM
Gus,
Not controversial? That dosn't sound like you. You are right about Ceroc in NZ not being very social which is a shame. One of the problems we have is the pubs/clubs don't really want us around. Ceroc people take up a lot of space on the dance floor and don't drink much alcohol (not a good client base from a bar owners point of view).

It could be worse though, when I started the classes were held in a building right next to a strip bar (We are too small to have a red light district so we only have a red light street) and you used to get japanese sailors coming up looking for girls.

Hopefully none of my fellow Kiwi's will see this but basically the further south you go in new zealand the more social and the less skillful the dancers become (on average) so maybe there is a relationship between the two.

As far as becoming an advanced dancer goes, it is really worth it. I have always enjoyed the fun side of Ceroc but it is a very special feeling to dance through a song with someone really good
without missing a beat to a song that you love. There comes a point where you don't think about the next move or have to try to follow the different timings of a song (where the tempo changes or freezes) it all just happens without thought and every move is perfect for the moment in the song.

Those times are amazing and stick in your memory.

p.s. Its even worse when you don't learn anything new in advanced classes either!

The most satisfaction I get is from helping beginner/intermediate people improve so hopefullly there will be more ceroc'ers in future.

Gus
18th-November-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by horsey_dude
Gus,
You are right about Ceroc in NZ not being very social which is a shame

I think I need to clarify what I mean. I'm not saying that Kiwi Cercoers aren't sociable ... far from it, an extremely friendly bunch. What I was trying to say is that the emphasis of the Ceroc clubs is more oin the dance than on the social aspect compared to the UK. I think one factor may be that the venues, from what I've seen of them, are smaller and don't tend to have bars...

Anyway, nice to have another perspective from across the waters ...

Emma
19th-November-2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by DavidB


There are significant differences in the lead in the different styles of dance. WCS is a leverage dance. Jive is all about changing from leverage to compression and back. Hustle is a compression dance.

Umm..I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds interesting - could you expand? :nice:

TheTramp
19th-November-2002, 05:21 PM
I think that he means that in Hustle, you have to sit on your partner.
:what:

Steve

DavidB
19th-November-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Emma
Umm..I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds interesting - could you expand?I have no problem expanding. It's dieting I find difficult.

Leverage & Compression

Stand facing your partner holding hands. A neutral position is when there is no tension in the arms. All you might feel is the weight of your partner's hand.
Leverage is when your bodies are pulling away from each other, and the hand grip is holding you together.
Compression is when you are leaning towards each other, and the hand is stopping your partner falling on you.

The compression and leverage can be very light - eg enough to stretch a rubber band. Or it can be quite strong, so that you are supporting a significant part of your partner's weight. In normal dancing it should be fairly light - if you let go then your body should move, but your feet shouldn't have to.

A leverage dance is when the connection is almost always leveraged, and you lead by changing the amount of leverage. For example in West Coast Swing, when doing an underarm turn, there is leverage at the start even while stationary, You increase the leverage to start the lady moving, reduce it as she is moving, and as she finishes the turn, you increase it again to stop her moving. If you danced with a rubber band connecting your hands, it would never go slack. (It doesn't mean that every lead is leveraged - some moves will use compression. It's just for the majority of the dance the connection is in leverage.)

A compression dance is when the connection is usually compressed. This is more unusual - the only one I know of is Hustle. (Hustle developed from Salsa in the US in the '70s, and is usually done to original disco music.) It is a very quick dance, and the lead would get very rough if the man kept pulling the lady forward. So the idea is that the lady always projects forward and tries to move towards her hand. Her forward step is assumed - it doesn't have to be led. The lead then becomes a case of controlling and guiding her momentum.

Ceroc relies on constant changes from compression to leverage. Think about a yoyo. To step back you use compression to move the lady back. To stop her moving, and bring her towards you, you use leverage. To twist her out, you use compression. To twist her back in, you use leverage. To turn her, you use compression, and leverage to stop her. The return is slightly different - you go from leverage to neutral and back to leverage.

All this makes each dance feel very different, especially for the ladies. A West Coast Swing lady would find Ceroc very rough, whereas a Ceroc lady would find a West Coast Swing lead very light.

But - for anyone who likes playing around, try leading Ceroc using just compression or leverage. It gives it a completely different feel, and may just give you some new ideas. (You might want to warn your partner first!)

David

Emma
19th-November-2002, 11:06 PM
Leverage & Compression
~snip~
~snip~
~snip~
..loads of interesting stuff
~snip~


Many thanks David - I knew you wouldn't let me down! :grin: :grin:

Ronde!
13th-January-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Having had a week or so of New Zealand Ceroc, its rather got me thinking about previous concersations about int v advanced dancers and whether Ceroc should be for dancing and/or social.

... big snip! ...

Just as a last point, as a teacher doing the Kiwi advanced (and some intermediate) classes ... its been refreshing to be part of a class again finding it hard to do moves, doing them wrong, forgetting the sequence and been corrected by my partner ..... reminds you what its like for people in your class ...

I think, perhaps, you may have indirectly answered your own question here. :)

In Australia, we also live in awe of the NZ dancers, though we have a fairly similar style: lots of dips and drops, aerials and so forth. In your post, you thought that this meant that we take dancing "more seriously"... but, au contraire, we have immense fun, and the social element of Ceroc is (at least for all those I know) the primary focus.

I think the last paragraph of your post is the true explanation for the "showy" style that predominates down under. There's a great deal of fun in being challenged to your personal limits. The challenging classes offered here make it fun for the advanced dancers, and provide them with a focus for their social interaction.

Live passionately,

Gus
13th-January-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Ronde!


I think the last paragraph of your post is the true explanation for the "showy" style that predominates down under. There's a great deal of fun in being challenged to your personal limits. The challenging classes offered here make it fun for the advanced dancers, and provide them with a focus for their social interaction.

Live passionately,

Hmmm ... maybe you can answer me a uestion. I admit that my experience of Aussie dancing is limited ... seen a few instructors at JiveSpree and just got my paws on the Aussie 2002 champs video ... but the thing that struck me was the heavy accent on BIG moves, multiple spins and a minimal amount of musical interpretation. Is that just a competition thing or would you say thats a generic style thing?

Ronde!
13th-January-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Hmmm ... maybe you can answer me a uestion. I admit that my experience of Aussie dancing is limited ... seen a few instructors at JiveSpree and just got my paws on the Aussie 2002 champs video ... but the thing that struck me was the heavy accent on BIG moves, multiple spins and a minimal amount of musical interpretation. Is that just a competition thing or would you say thats a generic style thing?

I admit that at comp, everyone loves those "showy, crowd pleasing moves." (name that movie!). Competitions here are very much about "putting on a show". However, interpretation is very much a part of that show; when I was tutored for comp, my teachers placed heavy emphasis on interpretation: and elsewhere, I've posted methods for finishing on beat, and interpreting pauses etc. at competition level.

To answer your question: While the general style here by all reports is much "bigger" than in the UK, it's definitely a few notches of intensity down from comp. :) I personally feel that because Ceroc here competes with a number of other popular dance styles (Ballroom, Street Latin, and Tango mainly) it is distinguished by its showiness, for which it has established a clearly defined market niche for us exhibitionists :wink:.

That said, I think the ladies (and most men) prefer more interpretation/feeling and less show off the competition floor, and I think that's reflected in the way the men lead socially. In social dancing, I feel compelled to give my partners an interesting dance (variety and interpretation); and to let my partner shine a little (a little showiness, but mainly to show off the lady's grace than the partnership's prowess).

The basics will always be good eye contact, a smile, and a sense of fun in the dance.:D

Work may be sending me in your direction within the next year or so. I'd be honoured if I might dance with one of your lovely ladies, and you can judge for yourself. :)

Live passionately,

Gary
13th-January-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Gus


...just got my paws on the Aussie 2002 champs video ... but the thing that struck me was the heavy accent on BIG moves, multiple spins and a minimal amount of musical interpretation. Is that just a competition thing or would you say thats a generic style thing?

Which Aussie 2002 champs? There are two big ones in Sydney, one organised by Ceroc Australia, one organised by Ceroc and Modern Jive. I was pretty disappointed with the Ceroc Australia champs video - they edited out the best (in my opinion) showcases (I'm guessing to stop people stealing moves).

I'm only an intermediate dancer, so take this with a big dash of salt. Multiple spins are a generic style thing here. Most of the better guys and girls do them a lot. Once you get used to them they're no big deal. On BIG moves versus musical interpretation, I'd say it's generally easier to teach and learn big moves than musical interpretation, so probably guys get into those earlier. I'm looking around for models of guys with great musical interpretation around Sydney, and they're kind of few and far between. There are a lot more girls who are very strong with interpretation.

On the other hand maybe I just don't get out and see the interpret-y guys much, or I don't recognise great musical interpetation when I see it (which might explain a lot).

I'll have to get a vid/DVD of some UK champs. Can anyone recommend one? (I was looking at getting the US Swing Open DVD(s), but $US200 is a bit harsh when I've only got Australian pesos).

Gus
13th-January-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by gcapell

I'll have to get a vid/DVD of some UK champs. Can anyone recommend one? (I was looking at getting the US Swing Open DVD(s), but $US200 is a bit harsh when I've only got Australian pesos).

The two main Competitons are the UK Open Champs (Chance to Dance) and the Ceroc Champs. The UK Champs vid probably has the better performances on it (profesional are allowed to compete, its got an airstep section and its 2 videos long but its expensive, around #40. The Ceroc tape is cheaper (about #17?) but my copy hasn't arrived yet so can't comment on the content.

For links, go to www.modernjive.com.

PS .. thanks for the comments re Aussie dance styles ... interesting.

Just looked ta the tape again ... its actualy the 2001 Ceroc and Modern Jive Champs ... Sydney.

Gus
13th-January-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Ronde!
Work may be sending me in your direction within the next year or so. I'd be honoured if I might dance with one of your lovely ladies, and you can judge for yourself. :)

Live passionately,

And which specific direction would that be ... to the sophistication of the North West, the warm friendliness North of Hadrians wall or the dank cesspool of despair South of the Watford Gap?:wink:

Ronde!
13th-January-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by gcapell
Multiple spins are a generic style thing here. Most of the better guys and girls do them a lot. Once you get used to them they're no big deal. On BIG moves versus musical interpretation, I'd say it's generally easier to teach and learn big moves than musical interpretation, so probably guys get into those earlier. I'm looking around for models of guys with great musical interpretation around Sydney, and they're kind of few and far between. There are a lot more girls who are very strong with interpretation.

Sounds pretty spot on... :)

If you're ever in Canberra, get in touch and I'll bring you to class... :) Intuitively, I think we have fewer Advanced dancers than in Sydney, but we try to make up for it in enthusiasm, which helps with interpretation. :)

Live passionately,

Ronde!
13th-January-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Gus
And which specific direction would that be ... to the sophistication of the North West, the warm friendliness North of Hadrians wall or the dank cesspool of despair South of the Watford Gap?:wink:

Ha ha hee hee hee! :grin:

Alas, if the south is a cesspool, then I shall be amongst the pondscum at its bottom, for I would be in Paris, which is even further south than you could possibly have imagined from my intentionally vague description. ;) However, I worked in the UK for a year previously, so any trip to Europe will definitely require a trip around the UK for old time's sake. :)

Thus, I look forward to your sophistication and warm friendliness. :)

DavidB
13th-January-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by gcapell
they edited out the best (in my opinion) showcases (I'm guessing to stop people stealing moves).I've never had any problem with people stealing moves. Just as long as they don't blame me when they go wrong!

I was looking at getting the US Swing Open DVD(s), but $US200 is a bit harsh when I've only got Australian pesos. If you are into musical interpretation, this could be the best USD200 you could spend. The standard is so far in advance of jive in the UK.

I have heard they might also have a single highlights video for this year, and a compilation of the best from the last 19 years. These might be cheaper. I've asked them for more information - I'll let you know what I find out..

David

DavidB
20th-January-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I have heard they might also have a single highlights video for this year, and a compilation of the best from the last 19 years. These might be cheaper. I've asked them for more information - I'll let you know what I find out.. They have a compilation of the best performances from the last 20 years, and it costs USD45, +shipping.

For more details see US Open Videos (http://www.usopenswingdc.com/toolbox/catalog?catalog=tickets)

David

Dreadful Scathe
22nd-January-2003, 10:42 AM
has anyne bought any of the videos/dvds ? on a scale of 1 to 10 how brilliant are they ? :) (Im justifying the spend)

TheTramp
22nd-January-2003, 11:24 AM
You mean that a recommendation from DavidB isn't enough to go scurrying off to your browser, credit card in hand??

Now, if I only had a credit card. When do you suppose they'll start taking switch in the US?

Steve

Jayne
22nd-January-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
When do you suppose they'll start taking switch in the US?
Steve

Do they not take switch in the States? Gosh! And I thought it was a civilised country... Definitely have to clear stuff off the credit card before I go then... Cheers Tramp!

Jayne

PS if you tell your bank that it's for expenses only they'll give you a credit card... well, it worked for me anyway...

TheTramp
22nd-January-2003, 11:45 AM
Ah. But that would be assuming that I'd want one Jayne. I'll just stay clear of them thanks, and wait for the lesser civilised countries to catch up :D

Steve

Jayne
22nd-January-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Ah. But that would be assuming that I'd want one Jayne. I'll just stay clear of them thanks, and wait for the lesser civilised countries to catch up :D

Steve

Yeah but you can hire cars with them and stuff...

Anyway... advanced dancing - you any good?

Jayne
:wink:

TheTramp
22nd-January-2003, 12:00 PM
Anyway... advanced dancing - you any good?Allegedly. Though, I maintain that I'm just a beginner. I have a long way to go in dancing in general. Though, apparently, I'm catching onto this jive thingy now.

Steve

Jayne
22nd-January-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Allegedly. Though, I maintain that I'm just a beginner. I have a long way to go in dancing in general. Though, apparently, I'm catching onto this jive thingy now.

Steve

So do you have any tips for us mere mortals? A voice of experience perhaps? After all, Life's too short to make all the dancing mistakes yourself (let alone all the other mistakes I manage to squeeze in *sigh*).

Tips?

Jayne
:nice:

TheTramp
22nd-January-2003, 12:17 PM
Tips??

Well, lots of better dancers than me have already posted lots of tips in this part of the forum.

How about we have a dance on Saturday, and see what happens :D

Steve

PeterL
22nd-January-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
Life's too short to make all the dancing mistakes yourself (let alone all the other mistakes I manage to squeeze in *sigh*).


A mistake is just a new move waiting to be invented.

TheTramp
22nd-January-2003, 12:27 PM
I dunno. You should see some of my mistakes.

However, I will bear that in mind next time my partner complains!! :D

Steve

Sal
22nd-January-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
A mistake is just a new move waiting to be invented.

Oh, I like that! I think this will be my new excuse!

Jayne
22nd-January-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Tips??

Well, lots of better dancers than me have already posted lots of tips in this part of the forum.

How about we have a dance on Saturday, and see what happens :D

Steve

I was just trying to get back on topic...

:sorry

Jayne

PeterL
22nd-January-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Sal
Oh, I like that! I think this will be my new excuse!

I think most of my moves are old mistakes.
just look knowledgablle and the partner presumes you were taught it somewhere.

It is quite funny when you make a mistake one week and then you see it taught as a move the next.

DavidB
22nd-January-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
has anyone bought any of the videos/dvds ? on a scale of 1 to 10 how brilliant are they ? :) (Im justifying the spend) 10/10, but I'm biased. I have only just ordered the 2002 videos. I have the 1999 and 2000 videos.

The US Open lasts 3 days, and there are quite a few different divisions. The two main ones are the 'Classic' and the 'Showcase'. Both are choreographed routines - the Classic has no lifts, whereas the Showcase has at least 3. There is a Cabaret division - anything but swing. They also have Strictly Swing (ie freestyle) where the pro's are not allowed to dance with their regular partner. There is no 'Dance With A Stranger' at the US Open - they don't have enough time to run one.

The top dancers are far better than anything you see over here at lead/follow, musical interpretation, performance and choreography. They are not so keen on lifts and drops. Virtually all of them are full-time dance teachers, and they usually compete 2 or 3 times a month. However anyone can enter any division, so sometimes you see some pretty bad couples who just wanted to say they had taken part. And obviously they do West Coast Swing, so you might not be able to pick up too many moves (unless you are good at adapting them.)

Each video set consists of 4 or 5 3-hour VHS tapes. They video everything - all the heats, the finals, a lot of the general dancing. They are professionally produced - they typically have 3 broadcast-quality digital cameras at the event, and use the latest digital mixing hardware/software. The tapes are usually available in NTSC format. If you don't have a dual-format video player, they can convert them to PAL format.

I'll let you know what I think of this year's videos when I get them.

David