PDA

View Full Version : Sabotage moves



Cornish Pixie
8th-November-2004, 11:01 AM
I dont no if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!

jivecat
8th-November-2004, 11:34 AM
I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea.

Are you sure you're giving clear enough signals? It may be she's genuinely misinterpreted an ambiguous signal.

MartinHarper
8th-November-2004, 12:26 PM
I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin.

Sounds like my dancing...

There's some discussion of leading yoyos vs hatchbacks here:
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3726

DianaS
8th-November-2004, 12:42 PM
I dont no if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!
Hiya
have you asked them for feedback, and then repeated the move a few times within the dance to see if they can pick up your signals? Perhaps it is just a matter of spending a little time getting to know them so you can understand each other a bit better. A few guys that I dance with I don't pick up on them too quickly, so when I fluff it I ask them to do it again later , if I fluff it again we unpick it a little.
It sort of helps
Diana

Zebra Woman
8th-November-2004, 12:44 PM
Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!

Is this for revenge?

If the lady doesn't follow your lead then I would look at why this is happening. I think it can be useful to lead neck break/open neck break or pretzl/dummy pretzl if you think your lead is great and you're trying to stop the woman from anticipating the move. Maybe the women really are doing their own thing and not interested in your lead, I would let your go really weak and just let them lead themselves :rofl: They might get the message.

Be careful about leading any move that stops the woman dead, you could really hurt her.

ZW :flower:

ChrisA
8th-November-2004, 12:47 PM
I dont no if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!

Lots of guys go through phases where they think they're getting the hang of it, and then think it's the ladies' fault for not following.

When actually, more often than not, it's the guys' fault for not leading properly or carefully enough.

What might be most helpful for you is to assume that it's your fault they do the wrong thing, and work on refining how you lead. Even if sometimes it's not true (and it almost always is :flower: :eek: ), it will still help your dancing if you do. If the lady is anticipating, you need to practise leading even more clearly and even earlier than normal (but without wrestling), to help her realise what you want before she has the chance to do something else. This can be very difficult sometimes.

You'll find that when your lead gets better, all the girls will improve too - all at the same time. :rofl:

I know this isn't what you want to hear - if I'd heard it when I needed to, I might now be a much better dancer than I am.

Chris

ElaineB
8th-November-2004, 01:17 PM
Come down/up/across to Bristol some time and let us Ladies put you through your paces! Actually this week-end would be good - Trinity Le Roc are holding 'Boppin in Bristol' Will and Kate, David and Lily, Adam and Tas and Rob C and Debbie are teaching and demoing. It will be a wonderful day/evening! :clap: :clap: :clap:

I'm sure they/we Ladies could help!

Let me know if you can make it!

Elaine

Zebra Woman
8th-November-2004, 01:25 PM
Lots of guys go through phases where they think they're getting the hang of it, and then think it's the ladies' fault for not following.

When actually, more often than not, it's the guys' fault for not leading properly or carefully enough.

What might be most helpful for you is to assume that it's your fault they do the wrong thing, and work on refining how you lead. Even if sometimes it's not true (and it almost always is :flower: :eek: ), it will still help your dancing if you do. If the lady is anticipating, you need to practise leading even more clearly and even earlier than normal (but without wrestling), to help her realise what you want before she has the chance to do something else. This can be very difficult sometimes.

You'll find that when your lead gets better, all the girls will improve too - all at the same time. :rofl:

I know this isn't what you want to hear - if I'd heard it when I needed to, I might now be a much better dancer than I am.

Chris :yeah: all of that.

IMHO there is also some responsibilty on the ladies to learn to maintain a frame, and follow the lead, rather than executing move that they know when they recognise the signal. It is a team effort after all.

ZW :flower:

Gadget
8th-November-2004, 01:51 PM
I dont no if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!
Not much more to add to everone's posts above:

The moves you have quoted are moves where the lady can go into a free-spin if led differently; generally they have to have something to 'push' against to do this - if you concentrate on leading the move while removing this 'push-off' point, it may help your lead.

If I am dancing with a lady is anticipating too much, I just throw in a few variations that lead her somewhere she didn't expect to be. I find a Yo-Yo-Sholder-Slide is a good move to catch the ladys anticipating and get them to sharpen up a bit: After a couple of moves like that, the ladys try to follow more than anticipate. :devil:

spindr
8th-November-2004, 02:01 PM
I think you are misinterpreting the lady's intentions -- she's just indicating that she'd like some time to express herself :)

So, just lead a comb -- and stand absolutely still -- so that the lady has plenty of time to dance her own moves. When she's finished -- step back and continue.

If you get a blank look -- that simply means that she'd like more time :devil:

SpinDr.

bigdjiver
8th-November-2004, 02:16 PM
I dont no if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help! :devil: THUMBS? :devil:

MartinHarper
8th-November-2004, 02:58 PM
I wurlitzer and they push spin.

Wurlitzer recap:
1. Step back.
2. Step in. Boy's left to girl's right in a palm-to-palm hold, girl's right to boy's left in a normal hold.
3. Prepare. Boy pushes away girl's right hand, and girl rotates 90°
4. Spin.

The key to the Wurlitzer/Push Spin confusion, for me, is the lead to get from the step in to the "prepare" stage. It's possible to lead this bit entirely from the girl's left hand: push it one way to get the girl to turn 90°, and then push it the other way to stop her from turning any more. That's a perfectly valid lead, IMO, and it works fine to slow music and/or with a great partner.

To faster music, or with less advanced women, the same lead can run into problems. The problem is that you're using the same hand (the girl's left hand) to send two contradictory leads, one after the other. Sometimes that second lead gets lost in the noise, and the result is that the girl goes into a very graceful Push Spin. It's not that she doesn't like being told what to do - it's that she can't hear what she's being told to do.

I find one solution is to use both hands to lead the "prepare" stage. Thus, the push on the girl's right hand leads her to start rotating, and the right hand is used to lead her to stop rotating (and eventually start rotating in the other direction). You still have two contradictory leads, but because they've been sent using different hands, it's less likely that they'll collide en route to her brain.

Zebra Woman
8th-November-2004, 03:45 PM
:devil: THUMBS? :devil:

:eek: BigD, don't forget we have....:devil: knees :devil:

Graham
8th-November-2004, 04:23 PM
In both cases you are losing contact with the woman when you didn't intend to. You should examine what you are doing differently/the same when you are doing the moves which are getting confused. If possible ask a friendly follower who is not doing what you expected to dance with you and give you feedback on what it is which is making her do the other move. It may be, for example, that you are pushing too hard, making her think that she needs to freespin. Or it may be that your handhold is very loose, making her think you're letting go. Alternatively ask a teacher or taxi for help.

bigdjiver
8th-November-2004, 04:40 PM
:eek: BigD, don't forget we have....:devil: knees :devil:I have devoted much time to studying them :grin:

Zebra Woman
8th-November-2004, 07:08 PM
I have devoted much time to studying them :grin:
Always wondered what you were looking at :rofl:

baldrick
8th-November-2004, 11:45 PM
Iv heard of sabotage moves to stop the lady in her tracks but dont know any, please help!
The shoulder slide lends its self to variations. Once the follow is behind you, you can keep the right hand hold to finish as a Yo-Yo, or pull past on your right and spin. Change to left hand and pull past on left, spin.
1/4 turn self right and turn follow counter clock wise behind you. then catapult finish.
But as has been said don't force it, make the lead expansive and be prepared for it to take a beat or two for your partner to realise she should go somewhere else.

Whitebeard
9th-November-2004, 02:14 AM
Lots of guys go through phases where they think they're getting the hang of it, and then think it's the ladies' fault for not following.
In general I don't have trouble leading beginner type moves except (and I accept that the fault is mine) trying to lead the American Spin in its truncated form. Spins being a useful way of seamlessly changing hands. As taught at both JazzJive and Ceroc under the same name (before the changes) it's back L-R, together, L arm and leg to the right in a fancy walk for an odd number of steps, while L arm and leg extended to the right lead (flick) the lady into a CW spin, and return ACW.

That's OK, but on a crowded floor there usually isn't room for those swingy sideways steps so I try to lead it directly from the step in and lead to the R .... and almost invariably the lady just doesn't read my intentions despite perhaps a squease of the hand, an attempt at eye contact, and a momentary hesitation to prepare. There's no tension in the lady's arm and, even if she does eventually get the message, a beat or two are lost. Should I just abandon ship or is there a secret to this???

Gadget
9th-November-2004, 10:05 AM
... while L arm and leg extended to the right lead (flick) the lady into a CW spin, and return ACW.
...and almost invariably the lady just doesn't read my intentions ...Should I just abandon ship or is there a secret to this???
Try not actually 'flicking' to the side, lead the hand in a motion to start the lady turning (past her hip) and 'flick' forward.

Test it on the exit to the cattapult where you draw the lady round infront of you; don't just let your hand drift off to the left - continue the motion and start her turning before you release. (Warning:If you 'hold on' rather than 'flicking', or try to lead them too far, they may mistake the lead for a wrap.)

MartinHarper
9th-November-2004, 10:30 AM
1. Step back (pref. girl back right)
2. Girl starts to rotate, but is stopped after 90°
3. Girl is spun in the opposite direction.

I assume the difficulty is getting the woman to do the right thing on 2? One possibility is to use my spare hand (right in this case) on the girl's wrist or lower arm to emphasise the stop. Another possibility is to stamp my foot in a dramatic manner on 2. Both options are signally, but if my partner has floppy arms, signals are where it's at... :)

Lory
9th-November-2004, 12:02 PM
There's a few reasons I occasionally sabotage moves...

1. I genuinely just get it wrong :blush:

2. The lead is ambiguous and I make a choice :confused: (sometimes the wrong one)

3. I'm having lot's of fun and really enjoying some 'banter' with my partner and feel confident that they will see it as fun too! :clap: :rofl:

4. I'm dancing with a beginner and we've been through the 4 basic moves loads of times and they start to say things like, this must be really boring for you, or they apologise for not knowing more. At this point, I make a decision, (depending on the mans personality) If I feel they have grasped the basics well and they seem enthusiastic to learn more, I might suggest I change the ending of one of their moves, i.e. backlead a simple move that they can then add to their repertoire. ;)

5. If I really hate a move (e.g. backwards tunnel move) I just stop, laugh and say, no way :angry: :hug:

Zebra Woman
9th-November-2004, 12:21 PM
There's a few reasons I occasionally sabotage moves...

1. I genuinely just get it wrong :blush:

2. The lead is ambiguous and I make a choice :confused: (sometimes the wrong one)

3. I'm having lot's of fun and really enjoying some 'banter' with my partner and feel confident that they will see it as fun too! :clap: :rofl:

4. I'm dancing with a beginner and we've been through the 4 basic moves loads of times and they start to say things like, this must be really boring for you, or they apologise for not knowing more. At this point, I make a decision, (depending on the mans personality) If I feel they have grasped the basics well and they seem enthusiastic to learn more, I might suggest I change the ending of one of their moves, i.e. backlead a simple move that they can then add to their repertoire. ;)

5. If I really hate a move (e.g. backwards tunnel move) I just stop, laugh and say, no way :angry: :hug:

:yeah: Yes all of those...Especially :clap: Number 3 :clap:

Re: Number 5 - IMHO There are two people tall enough to lead the tunnel move - Under Par and Peter Culver, I too have just stopped and said 'No way' :rofl:
It doesn't look nice either :sad: Neither does your hair afterwards :eek: (not that I worry too much about mine :blush: )

Lory
9th-November-2004, 12:39 PM
There are two people tall enough to lead the tunnel move - Under Par and Peter Culver, [/SIZE]
:yeah: there should be a law against anyone under 6'3" executing this move! :rofl:

Also larger (big bellied) men, who like to do the move, where they hold the ladies hands behind their backs, turn under and then somehow their head pops up through your cleavage! :eek: (I don't know why but it always makes me think of David Bellamy! :rofl: )

Zebra Woman
9th-November-2004, 12:50 PM
Also larger (big bellied) men, who like to do the move, where they hold the ladies hands behind their backs, turn under and then somehow their head pops up through your cleavage! :eek: (I don't know why but it always makes me think of David Bellamy! :rofl: )

Yes they seem to have no idea how cramped it's gonna get for them :wink:

Funnily enough, that move doesn't happen much to me :tears: :what: :rofl:

MartinHarper
9th-November-2004, 12:59 PM
the move, where they hold the ladies hands behind their backs, turn under and then somehow their head pops up through your cleavage

Heard it named as the "Jack-in-the-box". Could be a nice move, I reckon, given sufficient flexibility and practice.


(The lady tunnel move) doesn't look nice either Neither does your hair afterwards.

... so do it lower?

Graham
9th-November-2004, 01:11 PM
Also larger (big bellied) men, who like to do the move, where they hold the ladies hands behind their backs, turn under and then somehow their head pops up through your cleavage! :eek: (I don't know why but it always makes me think of David Bellamy! :rofl: )
This move should only be attempted if neither partner minds the possibility of contact between the guy's head and the woman's breasts. :really:

Peter
9th-November-2004, 01:14 PM
IMHO There are two people tall enough to lead the tunnel move - Under Par and Peter Culver

.. the tunnel move isn't one of the 10 moves I try to lead ....

Lory
9th-November-2004, 01:14 PM
... so do it lower?
NO! :D

Zebra Woman
9th-November-2004, 01:24 PM
NO! :D
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:


....The tunnel isn't one of the ten moves I try to lead...

That's a very good thing Peter :clap: , we're not wanting that move anyway :rofl:

ZW :hug:

Graham
9th-November-2004, 01:31 PM
... so do it lower?
Martin, I hope you will see from Lory's and ZW's response that trying to force women to go down is extremely inadvisable. :wink:

ChrisA
9th-November-2004, 01:48 PM
1. Step back (pref. girl back right)
2. Girl starts to rotate, but is stopped after 90°
3. Girl is spun in the opposite direction.

I assume the difficulty is getting the woman to do the right thing on 2? One possibility is to use my spare hand (right in this case) on the girl's wrist or lower arm to emphasise the stop. Another possibility is to stamp my foot in a dramatic manner on 2. Both options are signally, but if my partner has floppy arms, signals are where it's at... :)

A few comments...

First of all, no leading by stamping !!! She's not a mind reader, so why should she understand your code to "stop turning when you hear me stamp" :rolleyes: ??

Also, if she starts to turn out with enough impetus for more than 90 degrees, she won't be able to react in time, even if she understands your signal. And stopping her if she has lots of momentum is called yanking.

Second, if your partner has a floppy left arm, there is a very good chance that when she turns out with the said too much impetus, she will end up facing completely away from you, with her left arm twisted behind her back. Applying any force at all to it in this position, in an attempt to get her to do the ACW spin bit, is likely to strain her shoulder :eek: and is a very bad idea. :mad:

So if she has a floppy arm, the Wurlitzer is a bad move to try and lead, and if she ends up overturning, LET GO. But for her to turn this much probably means that you've pushed her too hard with your left hand, which isn't necessary. Sometimes they leap out on their own, in which case aborting the move is still probably safest.

Third, the Wurlitzer is a gentle move. If the turn out is led gently enough, she will not overturn. And the lead should be mostly from the guy's right hand - just let go with the left, using it for no more than a hint. All you're doing is setting her up with her weight on her left foot, ready for a spin to the left. The difference is that rather than a positive step forward on her left, she starts getting her weight on to it during the step back (ie slight clockwise pivot, led mostly with guy's right hand to bring her weight forward, not push it back).

This is the only reason a beginner with little resistance in her arm might need a tiny lead on her right as well to ensure that she pivots on to her left in preparation for the spin, rather than stepping forward on to her left. I would never do this with the flat hand as taught since (a) it isn't necessary and (b) it encourages anticipation.

The guy should end up ready for the ACW spin having drawn the lady's left hand across in front of him. This will pivot her clockwise in preparation, weight transferring on to her left foot.

There should be some resistance building in her left arm, but it takes very little to get just one spin, and most importantly, at the moment of the strongest part of the lead for the ACW spin, she needs to have her weight on her left foot, in balance.

Most of this is the guy's responsibility. And signals are not where it's at. Signals help no one to learn how to lead, and will be misinterpreted by followers.

HTH,

Chris

ElaineB
9th-November-2004, 02:05 PM
:yeah: there should be a law against anyone under 6'3" executing this move! :rofl:

Also larger (big bellied) men, who like to do the move, where they hold the ladies hands behind their backs, turn under and then somehow their head pops up through your cleavage! :eek: (I don't know why but it always makes me think of David Bellamy! :rofl: )

Hate the duck under move - nearly always seem to be led by guys who are too short with long arm hair........ :mad:

Re second move - been there and had man stuck!!! Made me laugh though! :rofl: :rofl:


Elaine

Gadget
9th-November-2004, 02:24 PM
there should be a law against anyone under 6'3" executing this move! {Tunnel}
A couple of years ago I saw a good lead, (6'4", built like a farmer) do tunnels, where the lady goes through, then the man, with a decent follower (4'6", stick like). :worthy:
That triggered a turning point in my thought process regarding Ceroc - the move does not really matter; as long as you can lead it without causing the lady discomfort. I thought that size difference was more of an obstical than it is in reality; you guide the lady - dictating to her is a lot more work and gives a lot more resistance. They know their own bodys and movements; don't tell them how to move, just where to move.

There are occasions that I still do the tunnel, but it's all timing and arm movements; very little ducking.


Also larger (big bellied) men, who like to do the move, where they hold the ladies hands behind their backs, turn under and then somehow their head pops up through your cleavage! :eek: (I don't know why but it always makes me think of David Bellamy! :rofl: )
I try to do that move at least once every night I'm dancing :blush: I was taught it in Salsa and have never seen it taught in Ceroc, therefore figured it makes my dancing a bit different from everyone else's.
Still not smooth enough - I need to start lower and not stick my bum out with it. practice, practice, practice. :sigh: what an arduous task. :wink:

MartinHarper
9th-November-2004, 05:18 PM
Apologies in advance to those who don't share my fairly analytical approach to dancing...


the Wurlitzer

Perhaps I should clarify that the comments of mine that you quoted were written in response to Whitebeard who, like me, sometimes has problems leading the American Spin. My comments on leading the Wurlitzer are further up the thread. I'll try to reply as best I can, anyway.


No leading by stamping !!! She's not a mind reader, so why should she understand your code to "stop turning when you hear me stamp" :rolleyes: ??

I have no idea why she should understand. I do know that, locally, most women do understand stamped signals most of the time. In MJ, where I'm at now, I'll do whatever works. :)


If she starts to turn out with enough impetus for more than 90 degrees, she won't be able to react in time, even if she understands your signal. And stopping her if she has lots of momentum is called yanking.

In an American spin, I start leading her to stop around 1.5, stamp (if I decide to stamp) on 2.0, and I don't need her to be fully stopped until around 2.5. In a Wurlitzer, I start leading her to stop around 2.1, and I don't need her to be fully stopped until around 3.5. As I've mentioned before, local women are tiny miracles of following, so they can handle this.


The lead should be mostly from the guy's right hand - just let go with the left, using it for no more than a hint.

Different teachers have said entirely different things to me in relation to this point. I have certainly used the technique you describe myself in the past, and I agree that it works. However, I find to faster music that the style I am experimenting with at the moment tends to be more successful, as I can start leading the girl to stop at beat 2.1, rather than around 2.9, and can therefore make that lead earlier, clearer, and lighter.

There is a continuum between our styles. On the one hand, I can lead a Wurlitzer entirely from my right hand, without even a hint from my left. On the other, I can give a firm lead with my left hand, and use my right hand solely to control and redirect the resulting rotation. I started closer to the first style, and I have recently moved closer to the second style.

At some later point in my dancing, I hope to have a firm grasp of both styles of leading the Wurlitzer, and switch between them so as to best adapt to my partner and the music speed. However, that's filed under "not yet".

Zebra Woman
9th-November-2004, 05:49 PM
I have no idea why she should understand. I do know that, locally, most women do understand stamped signals most of the time. In MJ, where I'm at now, I'll do whatever works. :)


Scary stuff Martin...What am I supposed to do when you stamp again? :confused:

I'm afraid the whole time I'm dancing I'm not in a position to really think at all. I'm just dancing whilst subconciously feeling the lead and enjoying the music. Any words or unusual signals would burst my bubble and wake me up. So I'm not sure I'd do the right thing for you. I think I would be a disappointment :( ...and I don't think I would be the only one either.
BTW I think using your spare arm to stop me by catching my shoulder/arm would work, I think that is universally understood.

ZW :flower:

ChrisA
9th-November-2004, 05:51 PM
I have no idea why she should understand. I do know that, locally, most women do understand stamped signals most of the time. In MJ, where I'm at now, I'll do whatever works. :)

You can bash screws in with a hammer, too - it doesn't make it right :flower:

It's very distracting if there's a stamper in a venue... sometimes you get a guy stamping away every 20-30 seconds throughout every track he dances to :tears:. I'll always be wondering if it's you, now :D

Seriously, I would suggest that you practise leading without stamping. It's just as possible as leading neck breaks without signals :flower: :hug:

Chris

PS Incidentally, are you sure it's the stamp she's responding to, and not some other movement transmitted through your arm? It's not very easy to stamp while keeping the rest of your body completely still.

ElaineB
9th-November-2004, 08:16 PM
Stamping? Scary!! Sorry (that's three words beginning with 'S' now - don't try that if you have a gap in your teeth!), but we have our very own 'stompy' in Bristol and it really can be scary - some Ladies wear open toed shoes and avoid him like the plague! :whistle:

Elaine

jivecat
9th-November-2004, 08:45 PM
Scary stuff Martin...What am I supposed to do when you stamp again? :confused:


And where is it you dance, Martin? Just in case I ever go there, I'd like to conform to what the natives do. Hardly anyone stamps much in the Midlands and if they do, I think it's for emphasis. I quite like it, if done well.





I'm afraid the whole time I'm dancing I'm not in a position to really think at all. I'm just dancing whilst subconciously feeling the lead and enjoying the music. Any words or unusual signals would burst my bubble and wake me up. ZW :flower:

I usually go to pieces if a leader says "*6"%^&* coming up". Because I never catch what he says and immediately panic, thinking something superhuman is about to be required of me. I don't know the names of any moves anyway. It always works much better if he just leads it without telling me. And then the dance just flows.

Even worse if it's shoulder tapping or some such signal.
A possible exception is where he wants me to throw my leg round him - always needs a certain amount of persuasion, :whistle: - some blokes just grab it and put it where they want. :innocent:

And that lungey move where he holds his hand out and I have to put my knee in it. I don't think I'd have the nerve to go for it without a verbal signal so I was absolutely sure I knew what he wanted me to do. Not many guys lead that one though. Phew.

Cornish Pixie
9th-November-2004, 09:51 PM
Are you sure you're giving clear enough signals? It may be she's genuinely misinterpreted an ambiguous signal.

I know wat you guys are thinking, but I know its not my lead because the woman that do it to me are experienced dancers that even do it when dancer with teachers etc. And i say things like i thought i suposed to lead you and don't get a blank look from them!

I just wanted to surprise them by putting them into a move before they even realise they've done it!

jivecat
9th-November-2004, 10:32 PM
I know wat you guys are thinking, but I know its not my lead because the woman that do it to me are experienced dancers that even do it when dancer with teachers etc. And i say things like i thought i suposed to lead you and don't get a blank look from them!




Perhaps they're not as experienced as you think they are, then.

I can't be sure if it's your lead or not. But I know that if I'm dancing with a very skilful leader then I'm PUTTY in his hands, he can make me do whatever he likes and it's much, much harder for me to mess up.

It's always the man's fault. The great thing about MJ is even the men say this as well.

Lynn
9th-November-2004, 10:41 PM
It's always the man's fault. The great thing about MJ is even the men say this as well. I like that comment! :grin:
(Though its usually me apologising... no actually, I'm learning to stop apologising.)

foxylady
9th-November-2004, 10:42 PM
...........But I know that if I'm dancing with a very skilful leader then I'm PUTTY in his hands, he can make me do whatever he likes ..................


and isn't that just mmm :drool: de-lish :drool: mmmmm :licks lips lasciviously:

David Franklin
9th-November-2004, 10:51 PM
I usually go to pieces if a leader says "*6"%^&* coming up".How does he pronouce that? Because maybe he meant to say 'quote asterisk 6 quote percent caret ampersand tilde' which is, of course a completely different move.

For more details please see book 4, page 713, paragraph 7, subclause 6c of "The Modern Jive Encyclopedia - the really really secret move edition".

Alternatively, he might have just heard the opening chords of "Call on me"...

Dave

MartinHarper
9th-November-2004, 11:20 PM
What am I supposed to do when you stamp again?

Whatever your subconscious tells you to do, as per normal. It's not a pre-arranged signal, just a signal.


I think using your spare arm to stop me by catching my shoulder/arm would work, I think that is universally understood.

Some women understand the spare hand coming across as a hand offer, and promptly take the hand. It's all good fun. :) Personally, rather than try for a lead/signal style that is universally understandable, I'd prefer to try for a lead/signal style that is universally adaptable.


Sometimes you get a guy stamping away every 20-30 seconds throughout every track he dances to.

I'd guess I use stamp signals a few times over the course of an evening's freestyle, depending on various factors. I aim for dramatic and committed, but not necessarilly that loud or hard - not that I can always achieve that.


Where is it you dance, Martin?

Ceroc Cheltenham was good for stamps the last time I went (some months ago). Primarily on flick spins, also for breaks. They were still rare, but I definately noticed them in comparison to other venues.

MartinHarper
9th-November-2004, 11:51 PM
I know its not my lead

Fair enough, if you're sure. Let me re-answer your original post with that in mind.


I dont know if any of you men get this but i have a few woman dancers who just dont like being told what to do. I go to yoyo they hatchback. I wurlitzer and they push spin. You get the idea. A bit of lady led improvisation is fine but sometimes it turns into an arm wrestle not a dance.

When local women decide to do some "lady led improvisation", it tends to be one of a few things:
1. I lead a free spin, and she gives me two or three.
2. I lead nothing, and she gives me something.
3. She gives me the same move that I lead, but she also gives me some cool styling stuff.

You gave us examples of leading one move and being deliberately given a different move of equal difficulty. To my knowledge, this has only happened twice to me: on one occasion my partner really didn't like closed neckbreaks, and decided to do an open neckbreak with an extra turn - on the other occasion my partner couldn't bend her arm into a half-nelson so when I lead an arm jive swizzle, she gave me an arm jive. Hardly a regular occurence, then.

The thing that surprises me is that these expert women you are dancing with are, from what you say, keen to hijack the lead from time to time, but can't think of anything more interesting to do when they've hijacked the lead than a push spin or a hatchback. It all seems so very unlike my own experience that I'm not sure what advice I could give. Sorry...

Whitebeard
10th-November-2004, 12:10 AM
Perhaps I should clarify that the comments of mine that you quoted were written in response to Whitebeard who, like me, sometimes has problems leading the American Spin. My comments on leading the Wurlitzer are further up the thread. I'll try to reply as best I can, anyway.
Indeed. And the odd thing is that, while I don't have trouble leading the Wurlitzer, there is this persistent problem with the American Spin; despite the spin part of both moves essentially mirroring each other. I guess, for less experienced ladies at least, the gentle palm to palm push apart of the Wurlitzer is an unambiguous preparation for the following spin. There is no such preparatory element with the (short) American Spin and ladies' are obviously not picking up any cues from my timing or action. I think if there were room for the swingy walk the problem might disappear. Will have to keep working on it.

Whitebeard
10th-November-2004, 12:20 AM
It's very distracting if there's a stamper in a venue ...

I do so agree with you there. Not so bad if it's moderate, but some guys seem to be intent on making as mush noise as possible and wearing hobnail boots to boot. Doesn't occur too often, but when it does I scringe.

The only time I've heard it mentioned from the stage, as an option, is in the Hatchback.

ChrisA
10th-November-2004, 09:34 AM
but I know its not my lead
Bless :flower:


It's always the man's fault. The great thing about MJ is even the men say this as well.

.... :yeah:

Chris

Cornish Pixie
10th-November-2004, 02:35 PM
Bless :flower:



.... :yeah:

Chris

IT IS NOT MY LEAD. I don't know what else i can say exept from i know the ladies are experienced. One is a teacher who was a professional dancer and one who has ceroced for years and probably tried every type of partner dance going.

The moves i stated they sabotage are only examples. Other things they do include.

Getting to the behind the back stage of the catapult breaking the grip and waliking round the front with no lead

Going into a pretzel ignoring the signal which before you say the do see because they go for it but then either walk around me or do some form of wiggle!

Graham
10th-November-2004, 02:45 PM
I strongly suggest, once again, that you ask one of these women for help in identifying why this is happening. Make sure she understands that it's not just happening with her.

Lory
10th-November-2004, 02:47 PM
IT IS NOT MY LEAD. I don't know what else i can say exept from i know the ladies are experienced. One is a teacher who was a professional dancer and one who has ceroced for years and probably tried every type of partner dance going.

The moves i stated they sabotage are only examples. Other things they do include.

Getting to the behind the back stage of the catapult breaking the grip and waliking round the front with no lead

Going into a pretzel ignoring the signal which before you say the do see because they go for it but then either walk around me or do some form of wiggle!
Well then, if I were you I'd take it as a compliment! They feel comfortable enough with you, that they can 'play'! :hug:

ChrisA
10th-November-2004, 02:49 PM
IT IS NOT MY LEAD. I don't know what else i can say exept from i know the ladies are experienced. One is a teacher who was a professional dancer and one who has ceroced for years and probably tried every type of partner dance going.

The moves i stated they sabotage are only examples. Other things they do include.

Getting to the behind the back stage of the catapult breaking the grip and waliking round the front with no lead

Going into a pretzel ignoring the signal which before you say the do see because they go for it but then either walk around me or do some form of wiggle!

Well it may be that they're just having a bit of fun. Why don't you ask them - none of us is there to watch what's going on, so we can't say, really.

But I promise you, it is very normal indeed for beginner guys, once they start getting the hang of things, to think they are better than they are, and blame the ladies for their failure to follow, when the same ladies are perfectly capable of following a more experienced guy's lead.

Don't you think it's possible that if the ladies you're referring to are as experienced and capable as you say, then you're more likely to be the one leading them wrong since, as you say, you've only been doing it for a few months?

In fact the better the follower, the more she will follow exactly what you lead. But this might not be the same as what you thought you'd led. :confused: :blush:

Honestly, this is very common with beginner guys. It's no reason to feel bad though - just ask for some feedback and work on improving your lead.

But like I say, they may be just playing :D I love it when they do that - especially if they wiggle :devil:

Chris

Cornish Pixie
10th-November-2004, 02:50 PM
Well then, if I were you I'd take it as a compliment! They feel comfortable enough with you, that they can 'play'! :hug:

Thankyou finally someone knows what i mean. Yes it is a bit of fun because we know each other quite well. I just wanted some moves that i could surprise them with that they wern't expecting when they improvise!

ChrisA
10th-November-2004, 03:02 PM
Thankyou finally someone knows what i mean. Yes it is a bit of fun because we know each other quite well. I just wanted some moves that i could surprise them with that they wern't expecting when they improvise!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Even more common than blaming ladies for failing to follow is blaming listeners for their failure to understand.

(But well done Lory - have some rep :flower: )

Cornish Pixie
10th-November-2004, 03:03 PM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Even more common than blaming ladies for failing to follow is blaming listeners for their failure to understand.

(But well done Lory - have some rep :flower: )

Im sorry!

ChrisA
10th-November-2004, 03:06 PM
Im sorry!
No worries mate :flower:

Coulda saved me a lot of typing, that's all :rofl:

MartinHarper
10th-November-2004, 05:02 PM
I just wanted some moves that i could surprise them with that they wern't expecting when they improvise!

You gave an example of your partner going from the "lean" part of the catapult, letting go, and walking round you in her own time. So, presumably she'd be coming round your left hand side, under her own steam. There's a trick you can play in this situation. Place your right hand in front of you in the standard hand offer signal. Once your partner has decided she's done playing, she'll notice it, and move forwards to try to put her hand in yours. As she does so, start rotating to the right. The game is to keep your hand just out of her reach. Remember to let her "catch" you at some point. :)

Hmm, other tricks... if she hijacks the lead, you can refuse to take it back. Technically, if she's leading, she can't give you the lead - only invite you to take it. That'll surprise, certainly. Similarly, if your partner decides to break away into some shimmies and the like, you don't have to pick up her hand the second she decides she's finished - go into some funky steps of your own, and pick up her hand when you decide you're finished.

Obviously, you have to do all this kinda stuff in a spirit of fun, rather than revenge. :)

ChrisA
10th-November-2004, 05:08 PM
Obviously, you have to do all this kinda stuff in a spirit of fun, rather than revenge. :)

Hey TWR... you could try stamping

:devil: :flower: :whistle:

Gadget
10th-November-2004, 05:29 PM
IT IS NOT MY LEAD.
:confused: so what do you want to do?
- Lead them through the move so that they cannot break into their own thing
or
- Sabotage their sabotage
or
- Suprise them with unpredictable moves so that they don't know when it's safe to sabotage

Cornish Pixie
11th-November-2004, 12:54 PM
- Sabotage their sabotage

:yeah:

Zebra Woman
11th-November-2004, 02:28 PM
:yeah: I'm always happy to have my sabotage sabotaged..... :clap:
It has happened many times (no names) :worthy: :worthy:

Glad to see the ladies were just messing with you thewurlitzerrocks...lucky you :waycool: Sorry, I'm afraid I also read your posts as though you were unhappy with them :blush:

ZW :flower:

Zebra Woman
17th-November-2004, 11:37 AM
Not really a sabotage....but it made me laugh

On the last chord of a song I was led to the point of being dipped by the man, but he didn't dip me. About one second later he dipped me to the floor. I laughed my head off. :rofl: It was like when you hold a baby up and then pretend to drop them, and catch them at the last minute.

I was still laughing afterwards and said how much I liked the trick and he said, it wasn't - he'd genuinely missed the break! :eek: :rofl: Luckily he could see I was laughing like a baby, not at him for missing the break. Phew.... :innocent:

Zebra Woman
17th-November-2004, 12:06 PM
Just re-read my post and maybe doing that unexpected drop on an unsuspecting lady could be dangerous...

Hmmmmm.....Probably not a good idea :what:

Graham
17th-November-2004, 12:15 PM
Luckily he could see I was laughing like a baby
Toothless and dribbling? :wink:

Zebra Woman
19th-November-2004, 06:38 PM
Toothless and dribbling? :wink:

I have come back here three times...and I still don't know what to say

No comment

ZW :innocent: