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Lory
29th-October-2004, 12:38 PM
An Email sent to me today, I think it must be from the USA but could have some pointers for us here!

Girls....

In light of the recent kidnapping and now murder of Leigh Mathews - I think it is important to read the following info for your own safety.


Things women should know to stay safe:



Please take the time to read these pointers. There may just be one or two you hadn't thought of.

It never hurts to be careful in this crazy world we live in.

1. Tip from Tae Kwon Do: The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it!

2. If a robber asks for your handbag, DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM. Toss it away from you.... he is probably more interested in your handbag than you and he will go for the handbag. RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!

3. If you are ever thrown into the boot of a car: Kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm through the hole and start waving. The driver won't see you but everybody else will. This has saved lives.

4. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their cheque book, or making a list). DON'T DO THIS! A predator could be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, and attack you. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR, LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.

5. A few notes about getting into your car in a car park:

A.) Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor, and check the back seat.
B.) If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most attackers surprise their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars.

C.) Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the shop, or work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out. IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. (And better paranoid than dead.)

6. ALWAYS take the lift instead of the stairs. (Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot.)

7. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; and even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN!

8. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP IT! It may get you raped, or killed.
Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good-looking, well educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked "for help" into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next victim.

9. Another Safety Point: Someone just told me that her friend heard a crying baby on her porch the night before last, and she called the police because it was late and she thought it was weird. The police told her 'Whatever you do, DO NOT open the door." The lady then said that it sounded like the baby had crawled near a window, and she was worried that it would crawl to the street and get run over. The policeman said, "We already have a unit on the way, whatever you do, DO NOT open the door." He told her that they think a serial killer has a baby's cry recorded and uses it to coax women out of their homes thinking that someone dropped off a baby. He said they have not verified it, but have had several calls by women saying that they hear babies' cries outside their doors when they're home alone at night. Please pass this on! and DO NOT open the door for a crying baby.

I'd like you to forward this to all the women you know. It may save a life.

David Franklin
29th-October-2004, 12:47 PM
The Crying Baby story appears to be an urban legend:

http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/crybaby.htm

Dave

Gus
29th-October-2004, 12:58 PM
1. Tip from Tae Kwon Do: The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it!

And a tip from Self Defence classes .. if you dont know how to use your elbow ... DONT!! Hitting someone without the expertise or conviction to make the impact count is as likely to encourage even a 'non-violent' attacker to become violent as it is to deter. If you want to use self-defence techniques go on a course recommended by your local Police (beware of the many cowboy courses),

I taught ladies self defence for a while before I realised it was pointless. Even when the girls had got to the stage where they could execute an effective knee or leg attack, every single one of them bottled it when I became aggressive in my (simulated) attack. :( There is a lot more to teaching self defence than techniques, its about mental attitude .. and at the end of the day that will win the day more than any fancy kung fu cr*p.

TheTramp
29th-October-2004, 01:11 PM
7. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; and even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN!
They can't really be that bad shots?? Can they??? I'll go to play paintball with these predators!!

Maybe the people running all had a 200 yard head start??

Trampy

Lory
29th-October-2004, 01:14 PM
And a tip from Self Defence classes .. if you dont know how to use your elbow ... DONT!!
I bow to your superior knowledge!

But here's one piece of advice I saw on TV once (and I thought it was good ) ....

If your ever in a crowded place and your grabbed and feel either a knife or gun held to you, then your threatened, if you keep you mouth shut and come quietly, you'll be OK....

What ever you do - DON'T keep quiet! This is going to be your only chance, scream as loud as you can and bring as much attention to the situation as possible, even if you get stabbed, at least people are around to call for help!

Things will be a lot worse once he gets you on your own! :sick:

David Franklin
29th-October-2004, 01:22 PM
I taught ladies self defence for a while before I realised it was pointless. Even when the girls had got to the stage where they could execute an effective knee or leg attack, every single one of them bottled it when I became aggressive in my (simulated) attack. :( There is a lot more to teaching self defence than techniques, its about mental attitude .. and at the end of the day that will win the day more than any fancy kung fu cr*p. :yeah: Some of these courses just fill you with false confidence that will get you into more trouble.
Case in point - at college, one of the karate students offered to demonstrate what he'd just learned about how to disarm a knife wielding attacker. I volunteered, and "killed" him about 20 times before he worked out how to get the technique to work with someone who wasn't going to just drop the knife (marker pen actually - we weren't that stupid!) the moment there was contact. Given that I didn't have a clue what I was doing, I hate to think what his chances would have been against someone who really wanted to hurt him.

Dave

Graham
29th-October-2004, 01:22 PM
They can't really be that bad shots?? Can they??? I'll go to play paintball with these predators!!
Of course they can. For a start, many will never have practised firing. Even if they have there's a good chance they weren't firing at moving targets. And even if they have practised they probably used a proper stance/grip, and chances are that in the heat of the moment they'll shoot one-handed and off balance without taking proper aim.

Lory
29th-October-2004, 01:28 PM
They can't really be that bad shots?? Can they??? I'll go to play paintball with these predators!!

Maybe the people running all had a 200 yard head start??

Trampy
I haven't a clue Trampy :blush: I didn't write it! :rolleyes: I just copied and pasted!

TheTramp
29th-October-2004, 01:29 PM
Of course they can. For a start, many will never have practised firing. Even if they have there's a good chance they weren't firing at moving targets. And even if they have practised they probably used a proper stance/grip, and chances are that in the heat of the moment they'll shoot one-handed and off balance without taking proper aim.
But still. 4 in 100. And chances are that you'd be starting off fairly close to them.... That's almost as many misses as the people firing machine guns at Arnie in his films!! :devil:

These days, given the plethora of video games, paintballing activities etc. I would have thought that someone interested enough in guns to own one would have had some experience of firing a one - even a pretend one.

Trampy

DavidB
29th-October-2004, 01:32 PM
They can't really be that bad shots??Why do you think they invented machine guns.

Most people could not hit a stationary target with a pistol. Even a marksman would have problems using a pistol from a few metres away. Rifles are a lot more accurate, but fortunately harder to conceal.

Automatic weapons are simply designed to fire several bullets in the general direction of a target in the hope that one of them hits. Not very subtle, but effective.

David Franklin
29th-October-2004, 01:38 PM
These days, given the plethora of video games, paintballing activities etc. I would have thought that someone interested enough in guns to own one would have had some experience of firing a one - even a pretend one.I'm guessing the stats are from the US, where owning a gun is much less of a big deal. And adrenaline is very bad for shooting accurately, so in the "heat of battle" people miss > 90% of the time.

There's a well known incident where a cop and criminal were crouched on opposite sides of a car, they broke cover and emptied their guns at each other (so about 20 shots fired at a distance of < 10 feet), and not a single bullet hit.

Dave

Gus
29th-October-2004, 01:39 PM
:Case in point - at college, one of the karate students offered to demonstrate what he'd just learned about how to disarm a knife wielding attacker. I volunteered, and "killed" him about 20 times before he worked out how to get the technique to work with someone who wasn't going to just drop the knife (marker pen actually - we weren't that stupid!) the moment there was contact. Given that I didn't have a clue what I was doing, I hate to think what his chances would have been against someone who really wanted to hurt him. Dave :grin: I love stories like that ... when I was seriously into martial arts I reckoned it was time to get over my fear of knives ... so I booked on a knife fighting and defence course with a recognised weapons expert (also a policeman in his day job). Spent an interesting two hours learning how to turn someone into a lifeless lump of meat :really: ... THEN we move onto knife defence. Bit scary ... my best run was disarming an armed assailant 7 times out of 10 ... sounds pretty good doesnt it ... till you think that in a street situation I stand at LEAST a 30% chance of being knifed. Those are not good odds. Best defence, as mentioned by Lory, scream for help then leg it in the general direction of a group of people.

stewart38
29th-October-2004, 01:45 PM
And a tip from Self Defence classes .. if you dont know how to use your elbow ... DONT!! Hitting someone without the expertise or conviction to make the impact count is as likely to encourage even a 'non-violent' attacker to become violent as it is to deter. If you want to use self-defence techniques go on a course recommended by your local Police (beware of the many cowboy courses),

I taught ladies self defence for a while before I realised it was pointless. Even when the girls had got to the stage where they could execute an effective knee or leg attack, every single one of them bottled it when I became aggressive in my (simulated) attack. :( There is a lot more to teaching self defence than techniques, its about mental attitude .. and at the end of the day that will win the day more than any fancy kung fu cr*p.

Have to agree with this

I use to help teach for many years and before that helped with classes male/female at Portsmouth Poly this is late 80s

One thing we never wanted to give was a false sense of security. Guys dont become Bruce Lee in 6 months and both sexes must use 'commen sense' which was fairly standard.

ps if your ever attacked by a bear dont struggle play dead Im told

pps I liked the story from one of those 'hard men books' he was a doormen but had no background in fighting ,boxing etc. When trouble came up he would put in a gum sheild and square up he said it worked nearly everytime and the other person backed down. I think that was in the 60s not sure what would happen now !

Re bear if you see one im note sure if your meant to shout wave your arms ?

TheTramp
29th-October-2004, 01:46 PM
I'm guessing the stats are from the US, where owning a gun is much less of a big deal. And adrenaline is very bad for shooting accurately, so in the "heat of battle" people miss > 90% of the time.

There's a well known incident where a cop and criminal were crouched on opposite sides of a car, they broke cover and emptied their guns at each other (so about 20 shots fired at a distance of < 10 feet), and not a single bullet hit.
Fair enough. But in that case, they wouldn't have been aiming particularly accurately, since they'd have been trying to 'dodge' incoming bullets too. Just firing at a moving target that was concentrating on getting away, rather than firing back, that also presumably started off fairly close to you, is rather easier....

And I have no accurate statistics. Just that 4 in 100 seemed very low to me. If it'd been 25 in 100, I'd have accepted that without a problem.

Anyhow. If someone wants to give me a gun, and start Mr. Barker and Graham running, I'll even count to 3 before I start firing :whistle:

Trampy

David Franklin
29th-October-2004, 01:49 PM
Bit scary ... my best run was disarming an armed assailant 7 times out of 10 ... sounds pretty good doesnt it ... till you think that in a street situation I stand at LEAST a 30% chance of being knifed. Those are not good odds. Depends how you look at it - from everything I've heard, 30% chance of not getting knifed is very good indeed (good enough that I'm doubtful about the realism of the test setup). Because the standard comment on rec.martial-arts for this scenario is:

You WILL get cut.

As well as the saying:

Q: How do you tell the winner of a knife fight?
A: He's the guy in the hospital instead of the morgue (with a bit of luck - they might both end up in the morgue).

Dave

Dreadful Scathe
29th-October-2004, 01:51 PM
Of course they can. For a start, many will never have practised firing. Even if they have there's a good chance they weren't firing at moving targets. And even if they have practised they probably used a proper stance/grip, and chances are that in the heat of the moment they'll shoot one-handed and off balance without taking proper aim.
I think theTramp has a point, that would be a bad shot - someone running away in fear is unlikely to have the self control to weave, they'll run in a straight line, and if they are wearing heels and not used to running theres not much distance going to be made in the few seconds it takes the attacker to fire the first innaccurate shot, steady themselves and get the 2nd. Saying that though, I would still think it would be better to run UNLESS you are in the middle of nowhere, because if you are then its more likely that if hes prepared to shoot, he'll be prepared to chase you and finish you off too! But then again, what are you doing in the middle of nowhere!

I agree with Gus about the self defence thing, point 1 is not a very good idea. The most useful thing a woman being attacked can do is something that helps her get away ...so if you can run, just run and scream, dont bother hitting him first its more likely to anger him. However, if you are physically grabbed from behind then you can stamp as hard as you can on his shins, it will slow him down for a bit - if facing him then jab all your fingers into his eyes or slap him as hard as possible around the ears, both disorientate - you then run away and scream, any attack you make is just to help you get away. Men who would do something like this prey on the weak so 'taking him on' in any way is really not an option unless you are in fact a martial artist or have some sort of weapon - but its always going to be risky. (a lot of woman when asked about what they would do in this situation say 'knee/kick him in the groin' but, that WILL anger him, a lot, and the adrenaline from the pain will pretty much guarantee you're grabbed within the next few seconds - the shins, when hit, by contrast make you hobble but dont give that same explosion of adrenaline and anger)

Number 8 in Lorys list seems cynical. Yes people need to be careful, but the suggestion that you treat everyone as a possible 'Ted Bundy' seems overly paranoid and would not create a very friendly society :(

MartinHarper
29th-October-2004, 02:04 PM
Things people should know to stay safe:

1. Don't take safety advice from chain emails.
2. Or random internet posts like this one.

stewart38
29th-October-2004, 02:05 PM
I agree with Gus about the self defence thing, point 1 is not a very good idea. The most useful thing a woman being attacked can do is something that helps her get away ...so if you can run, just run and scream, dont bother hitting him first its more likely to anger him. However, if you are physically grabbed from behind then you can stamp as hard as you can on his shins, it will slow him down for a bit - if facing him then jab all your fingers into his eyes or slap him as hard as possible around the ears, both disorientate - you then run away and scream, any attack you make is just to help you get away. Men who would do something like this prey on the weak so 'taking him on' in any way is really not an option unless you are in fact a martial artist or have some sort of weapon - but its always going to be risky.

:(

We were told to tell them to scream fire must have been a reason for this when running away?

Of course theory is one thing practice is something else.

Incidentally did anyone come across some unsavoury characters outside of Hammersmith the other week. They were 'hanging around' when i got there and when I left. I walked a girl to her car with my ceroc plastic card duly ready for action should it have been needed.

jivecat
29th-October-2004, 02:08 PM
...... and if they are wearing heels and not used to running theres not much distance going to be made in the few seconds it takes the attacker to fire the first innaccurate shot, steady themselves and get the 2nd.

A good reason to wear some nice sensible trainer-type shoes if you're going to put yourself in any kind of vulnerable situation so you can be ready to run. Keep the stilettoes in the handbag and put them on when you arrive.

Gadget
29th-October-2004, 02:10 PM
We were told to tell them to scream "fire" must have been a reason for this when running away?
because people respond to "FIRE!", they don't respond to "HELP!"

:tears:

Gus
29th-October-2004, 02:19 PM
I walked a girl to her car with my ceroc plastic card duly ready for action should it have been needed.You had a far better (and legal) weapon with you ... your deoderant. Having Lynx sprayed into an attackers eyes isnt as effective as using mace but it gives sufficient time to get to safety or give the b*****d a good kicking while he cant hit back :devil:

drathzel
29th-October-2004, 02:19 PM
But still. 4 in 100. And chances are that you'd be starting off fairly close to them.... That's almost as many misses as the people firing machine guns at Arnie in his films!! :devil:

These days, given the plethora of video games, paintballing activities etc. I would have thought that someone interested enough in guns to own one would have had some experience of firing a one - even a pretend one.

Trampy
ever tried to shoot a moving tyre... its nearly impossible! (according to my mother who learned how to shoot in the army)

TheTramp
29th-October-2004, 02:21 PM
ever tried to shoot a moving tyre... its nearly impossible! (according to my mother who learned how to shoot in the army)
Yes. I'd agree. But then, a moving tyre is attached to a car, which is moving a lot faster than a lady (even wearing trainers). It's also a lot smaller. Not that I'm saying that ladies are big you understand. Oh dear. Ladies. Please put down those guns *starts running*

Trampy

Robin
30th-October-2004, 03:44 AM
Ermmm - not sure its that relevant but what about sawn off shotguns ? They have much larger "spread" pattern due to the fact that the length of the barrel is designed to keep the shot close together over a longer distance so if you shorten the length of the barrel and you could probably hit a mouse at 5 meters let alone a person!

I've thought of a good defense though. Does anybody remember that Jasper Carrott sketch about the nutter ? ... went along the lines of wherever he went he seemed to have the words "nutter lover" on his forehead ?

Just behave like a total nutter and the assailant will run a mile ... or become your best friend !!!

Bangers & Mash
30th-October-2004, 09:10 AM
Yes. I'd agree. But then, a moving tyre is attached to a car, which is moving a lot faster than a lady (even wearing trainers). It's also a lot smaller. Not that I'm saying that ladies are big you understand. Oh dear. Ladies. Please put down those guns *starts running*

Trampy

I did a lot of shooting in the deserts around Washington State with a bunch of nutty americans. Every single one of them carried a gun for self defence to any location that was legal. One of the girls even had a license to carry a concealed weapon (which is much less common).

From what I saw and the shooting I did, I would say that the odds of being shot by any of that lot would be very high.

However, I suspect that in most scenarios being discussed here - the assailant is more than likely using the weapon for show and the last thing he wants is for everbody else to know he has a gun - so I would suggest a girl

1 - throw her handbag at him (instinct is to catch it)
2 - Shout as loud as you can "he's got a gun." (don't shout fire :wink: )
3 - Run like f*ck (pref take the first turning off the road you are on)
4 - Aim for a public place

He'll probably run the other way - and try and conceal the gun!

:cheers:

Lynn
30th-October-2004, 10:03 AM
4. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their cheque book, or making a list). DON'T DO THIS! A predator could be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, and attack you. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR, LOCK THE DOORS... This is an important one. Can I also add, if you are going somewhere, keep the doors locked until you are just about to get out of your car and glance round before you unlock them. Central locking can be dangerous in this respect. I know several women who have unlocked the drivers door and someone nearby has been waiting for this, jumps in and grabs their handbag off the passengers seat. Other areas to be careful if you are alone in the car with the doors unlocked are traffic lights.

Magic Hans
30th-October-2004, 10:20 AM
Things people should know to stay safe:

1. Don't take safety advice from chain emails.
2. Or random internet posts like this one.

:yeah: :yeah:

BUT! .....

Far better posting in a forum than emailing (especially openly!) to a big list of people! Even better to refer to an web site rather than typing or copying and pasting!!

Check out
Break the Chain (http://www.breakthechain.org)
For why all chain letters are bad, even the well intentioned ones, and why dissemination of information by chain is both unreliable, [can be edited by anyone] and open to abuse [spammers getting lists of any open email addresses].

Glad this thread was started, 'cos I hate chain letters with a vengeance :angry: , and relish any opportunity to inform [and vent that frustration!].

Y'all have a fine halloweeeeeeeeen!!!

Ian

Tiggerbabe
30th-October-2004, 11:21 AM
Other areas to be careful if you are alone in the car with the doors unlocked are traffic lights.
You know, I tend to do this when I'm in another town but usually forget when I'm near home - crazy isn't it?
Once, I had someone jump into the passenger side of the car, I was watching the traffic at the time, having stopped at the junction to turn left into a main road...........thankfully it was someone I knew, but it didn't half give me a fright :sick:

philsmove
30th-October-2004, 11:44 AM
Check out
Break the Chain (http://www.breakthechain.org)

Ian

liked this from it http://www.breakthechain.org/awards/0404.html

drathzel
30th-October-2004, 12:32 PM
You know, I tend to do this when I'm in another town but usually forget when I'm near home - crazy isn't it?
Once, I had someone jump into the passenger side of the car, I was watching the traffic at the time, having stopped at the junction to turn left into a main road...........thankfully it was someone I knew, but it didn't half give me a fright :sick:

I am the same!

It doesn't matter if you know them, its still frightening and it can make you think! :hug:

Gojive
30th-October-2004, 03:32 PM
because people respond to "FIRE!", they don't respond to "HELP!"

:tears:

I'm sure that if someone was chasing me with a gun, the last thing I'd want to shout is 'FIRE' !! :whistle:

bigdjiver
30th-October-2004, 04:17 PM
Confronted by a guy with a gun, in my dreams I'd smile broadly, and say "Sorry, mate, I saw the camera. I don't want to be on TV.", and walk off whilst he looked around and wondered if I was for real.

I don't believe the 4 in 100 hit statistic, and even if true, it gives you more than 1 chance in 5 of being hit with six shots.

neilh
7th-November-2004, 11:54 PM
Erm,is just me or has this moved away from Lory's original post of info for ladies to keep safe?
Maybe I'm weird but when I arranged to meet a potential dance partner I made sure that she told somebody WHO she was meeting,WHERE and the time - these are simple and easy things to do & does help to keep you safe.

Oh,and hey - it can happen to guys as well!