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Starlight Dancer
26th-October-2004, 01:26 AM
We often hear a track talked about as being good to Ceroc to. And I've noticed that many Ceroc venues, at least in my area, tend to play the same type of tracks. And when an unusual track is played, perhaps for its tempo, I hear some Cerocers exclaim "I can't dance to this!"

It's as if a certain kind of track is considered good for modern jive dancing.

But can we challenge our modern jive dancing, even if in an experimental way, by focusing a little more on those tracks that are seldom heard at a Ceroc venue, yet contain the ingredients for developing our dance.

Granted, this is not necessarily the best way to fill Ceroc beginners with confidence, but I think this is the way to make us think about musical interpretation, and to shock us out of our habitual responses on the Ceroc dancefloor which tend to be so predictable at times.

What would happen if we attempted to Ceroc to Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake? Yes, this is ballet music and perhaps I am taking things to an extreme here to make a point, but there would be a challenge! How can you not be forced to focus on musicality then and shake yourself out of the formulaic Ceroc responses to music?

By introducing unexpected tracks into a Ceroc evening we would not only be forced to become better listeners and interpreters of music, we would also be forced to develop our dance style, to take it beyond the cardboard cutout forms it can become. Ste said something along the lines of that he sees Ceroc as two pieces of bread between which we can place a delicious filling by introducing elements from other dance forms, and I agree.

What does everybody else think? Are we becoming complacent about the possibilities of our own dancing?

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Lounge Lizard
26th-October-2004, 09:23 AM
NO
Dancers are not becoming complacement - the opposite if anything.

Most people learning MJ start with easy fun and structured beginners class, they move on to intermediate and either are happy to stay there or look further for more complicated moves, other styles or variations on a theme.
Whatever direction they take the basic dance form must be retained to enjoy their new-found talents on the mj dance floor......the dance MUST be leadable, contrived or choreographed moves are often wasted in open freestyle.

Music is the same, safe 'pop' tunes for beginners are essential and many will want no more.

All to often 'challenging' music where finding the beat or rhythm is a task in it self are played at venues for 'advanced' dancers. More often than not this fails to immpress the dancers, teachers or organisers. Dancers then become wary of new tracks outside the 'comfort zone' of their usual music diet.

Challenging music to me is a tune that makes me want to dance irrespective of it's genre, it will contain breaks and openings for interpretation, but will keep my feet tapping throughout the track.

Should venues in your area play different music.........dunno many clubs have bombed cos the balance of music and teaching was wrong. Gus took the inititive in his (details area on another thread) and it paid off so it may happen in other areas....Hope so but getting organisers to change anything when their venues are packed is not an easy task
Peter

Mary
26th-October-2004, 12:11 PM
I think each venue has it's own market. Quite a few Ceroc venues on regular class nights cater to the beginner/intermediate who are most comfortable with the standard range of music within a certain number of bpm. I know some franchisees who have tried playing more adventurous music (for the more experienced or experimental punter) and had complaints. One franchisees response to these complaints is that she has to cater to all levels of dancer but admitedly she gears the music towards the 'safe' zone.

But then you do get the likes of DJ Kenobe who seems to have found his niche playing the most eclectic mix of all sorts of fantastic music and is always coming up with some new stuff, all of it very danceable but one has to listen and feel. The market for this kind of stuff is places like Kent House (Amir's new Jango venue), and the Kent House Tjive, also some Ceroc freestyle nights. You may have gathered that I am a massive fan of Kenobe :worthy:

Oh, and I have had a wonderful mj dance to Handel (with Roger Chin as it happens - one of those memorable dances).

MartinHarper
26th-October-2004, 12:20 PM
If you want to listen to, and dance to, adventurous music, I wonder if an MJ night (of whatever brand) is the best place to do that. Would venturing out into the "real world" with some like-minded friends be a better alternative?

Why not go to a classical concert and start jiving in the aisles? :)

Graham
26th-October-2004, 12:35 PM
I'm pretty much with LL here, for several reasons.

Most non-competition MJ involves a mixed ability group, with often a high proportion of inexperienced dancers. It is a sad but undeniable fact that many beginner men (some women too, obviously, but it's a particular problem in men) have difficulty in dancing to a beat, and while they're learning to do this, the more obvious the beat is, the better.

Apart from the regular beat, most beginners and improvers do not find it easy to improvise or vary the pace of their dancing, so anything too fast or too slow becomes very difficult for them, and tends to end up with them abandoning trying to keep in time - I'm not sure why we would want to encourage this.

From observation, most intermediate-level dancers do not even rise to the challenge of very regular breaks, such as in Wade in the Water, far less anything more challenging - until they are comfortable with this level of interpretation, is there any benefit in trying more complex syncopation and improvisation?

Many pieces of music suggest a particular style of dancing. Although I haven't personally tried it, I imagine that the pace of Iggy Pop's The Passenger would be suitable for Salsa, but why would I want to? Similarly, much of Swan Lake (partly by association of course) suggests expansive balletic movements, and not partner dancing at all, so why would I want to try and MJ to it?

The point of partner dancing is two people having a musical connection and acting in concert. The beat is a really useful prop because no matter what each person does their partner can have a reasonable expectation of when it will finish, and how fast or slowly they should be moving to complement it. When the music is more complicated, then this connection needs to be made from a combination of lead/follow technique and similar musical interpretation. For me, this effectively limits my choice of partner for a demanding track to about 1%, although if I'm particularly familiar with the music this can broaden out a little. So if the one person I might try out some interesting track with is not there that night, or is dancing with someone else, then I'd probably prefer to sit out.

In short, while I'm all in favour of improving musical interpretation (both my own and the general standard in MJ), I don't think regular playing of even more challenging tracks than I am used to is the way to do it, although I would say that many interesting tracks quickly suffer from being overplayed (eg All That Jazz or Oh So Quiet), so a little more variety would be welcomed, provided the tracks are not completely unfamiliar.

stewart38
26th-October-2004, 12:53 PM
Put on what I would you could call 'swan lake music' or music that is clearly hard to 'dance to' as happened at 'somewhere' after 12.00 a few weeks ago will put people off.

I have no problem with developing my dance style with the 300 or so 'pop music type' songs and this includes blues music etc

Put garage music on or swan lake type and ill walk off

Music with breaks in them are good which you get within the above

Mary
26th-October-2004, 12:54 PM
Why not go to a classical concert and start jiving in the aisles? :)


:rofl: Nice one.

Just a thought. As Ceroc are running style and musicality workshops now, is it not a good idea for those who have attended those workshops to be given the opportunity to put what they've learnt into practise at regular Ceroc nights, with music that steps just a little outside the 'safe' zone?

M

spindr
26th-October-2004, 01:12 PM
Isn't synchronicity wonderful there's a discussion on this elsewhere called DJs pay the dancer(s) (http://www.salsamafia.com:8080/yabbee/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1329).

I think that this could be partly solved by building in a couple of tracks into the actual class?

So at the end of the beginners class you have some beginners tracks; at the end of the improvers' class you have some improvers track; etc. Not as part of the general freestyle -- but simply for people in the class? Preferably with the teachers explaining some ideas on how to use the music, as well. Think of it as a micro-musicality class?

Then the freestyle can try to cater for all levels.

SpinDr.

Mary
26th-October-2004, 01:37 PM
I think that this could be partly solved by building in a couple of tracks into the actual class?

So at the end of the beginners class you have some beginners tracks; at the end of the improvers' class you have some improvers track; etc. Not as part of the general freestyle -- but simply for people in the class? Preferably with the teachers explaining some ideas on how to use the music, as well. Think of it as a micro-musicality class?

Then the freestyle can try to cater for all levels.

SpinDr.

Nah! That's far too sensible.:wink:

M

Lory
26th-October-2004, 01:40 PM
When I first started MJ, I loved to hear all the latest disco beats, it made the whole thing feel more acceptable.

As I'd only ever been to disco's before, the thought of partner dancing to Franck Sinatra and the like, in a church hall, with a fair quota of older men, didn't sit well with me! :rolleyes:

I felt I had to justify myself to my non dancing friends by saying things like, 'We dance to all the latest chart stuff! It's not old fuddy duddy music!' (Even though at home, I have a large music collection, with all sorts of different music) :waycool:

The boom boom boom of the latest chart stuff was easy to dance too and that was the main thing! As I was just about coping with simple routines!

Style and musicality hadn't even been considered. :what:

Then, as I got more 'into' the dancing the pre-formed prejudices vanished, I then realised, there's more to this.

So now, I can follow in time and the steps are becoming easier, muscle memory has clicked in.
And I've started to 'feel' the music, play with it and experiment a bit. I hear the breaks and I'm able to do something with them. :D

But sadly now, a whole night of constant boom boom boom music, has become boring and irritating! :sad:

Can I call this progress? :blush: :D

foxylady
26th-October-2004, 01:54 PM
When I first started MJ, I loved to hear all the latest disco beats, it made the whole thing feel more acceptable.

As I'd only ever been to disco's before, the thought of partner dancing to Franck Sinatra and the like, in a church hall, with a fair quota of older men, didn't sit well with me!
/snip
.
.
Can I call this progress? :blush: :D

How about the older men Lory....? Is it progress when they start to look younger and more appealing ? or is that called getting old ? :wink:

Lory
26th-October-2004, 01:59 PM
How about the older men Lory....? Is it progress when they start to look younger and more appealing ? or is that called getting old ? :wink:
I think that's on another thread, called 'time to go to specsavers! :D

Starlight Dancer
26th-October-2004, 06:09 PM
I always remember the time I attended a Blues workshop with Nigel and Nina.

Before they did any teaching they put on a Blues track and told everyone to freestyle to it. I think most if not all of the modern jive dancers were whirling about the room and flinging their partners in catapults and all the other standard Ceroc moves, regurgitating the moves they had learnt.

After the track was over Nigel singled out who he thought was the best dancing couple to the track. The lead was someone who had never danced before! He danced Blues instinctively to that track because he was forced to listen to the music as he had no Ceroc repertoire to draw on as an automatic response.

My point is that we can become too automatic in our dancing at times once we have a stock of Ceroc moves to draw on. Even the best dancers do it, including competition winners. We can't unlearn a dance form, and there is no reason why we should because there's nothing wrong with the dance form itself, but by choosing to dance to something unusual we have to think more about how we are going to interpret the music and dance to it. I am not calling for Swan Lake to be played at Ceroc venues, I was merely making a point about the way some music is churned out so predictably at some venues, in a way that doesn't always challenge us to develop our musicality and style. It would though, I'm sure, be highly educational to Ceroc to Swan Lake as an experiment.

I agree with the forum member who suggested tailoring the music to the specific part of the night - ie music suited to a beginners class, first freestyle, intermediate class, second freestyle etc. I also agree that an advanced class or workshop could introduce more complex music to make us focus more on interpretation, musicality, and style. We need to challenge ourselves, but at our own pace!

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Gus
26th-October-2004, 06:19 PM
Iwould though, I'm sure, be highly educational to Ceroc to Swan Lake as an experiment......I agree with the forum member who suggested tailoring the music to the specific part of the night - ie music suited to a beginners class, first freestyle, intermediate class, second freestyle etc. I also agree that an advanced class or workshop could introduce more complex music to make us focus more on interpretation, musicality, and style. We need to challenge ourselves, but at our own pace!I agree with most of what you have said BUT how do you cater for more eclectic dance music within the current format? There is little enough freestyle time anyway on a club night and the franchsiee (and hopefully DJ) has half an eye on the commercial impact of stretching dancers. Is there any profit in it on a club night? If not ..what is the incentive for a franchisee to try to do so? They are not a charity, its a business (and a pretty succesfull one) so I'm not sure that the drive to do so will ever come from the established club set-up. (I fully apprecaite that this is a sweeping comment but I think that it covers the majority of standard MJ clubs).

Starlight Dancer
26th-October-2004, 08:18 PM
I agree with most of what you have said BUT how do you cater for more eclectic dance music within the current format? There is little enough freestyle time anyway on a club night and the franchsiee (and hopefully DJ) has half an eye on the commercial impact of stretching dancers. Is there any profit in it on a club night? If not ..what is the incentive for a franchisee to try to do so? They are not a charity, its a business (and a pretty succesfull one) so I'm not sure that the drive to do so will ever come from the established club set-up. (I fully apprecaite that this is a sweeping comment but I think that it covers the majority of standard MJ clubs).

You are absolutely right, Gus. From a business point of view it's not always good sense to be progressive! And I am for one always glad to see a thriving membership that I wouldn't want to scare off! So these things need to be thought through carefully by all concerned. I think London has a slight edge over the rest of us in the respect of being progressive (DJ Kenobe, Amir, Nigel and Nina, for instance), so hopefully we will learn from them and Amir won't abandon us for his ballet!

It's a delicate balance we need to get right between keeping a thriving venue going and developing the dance potential of the punters. At the end of the day it might just come down to the instructors and the DJ throwing in that little bit extra without terrorising the punters. Curiously, people can shy away from a venue when they think dancers are too good for them, because they are just plain scared of making a fool of themselves in the presence of superior ability, or being shown up by people better than them. I don't know if that might be a reason for franchisees not to build up too much talent, even though it's amazing to see class performances? Any ideas on that anyone?

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foxylady
26th-October-2004, 10:50 PM
I agree with most of what you have said BUT how do you cater for more eclectic dance music within the current format? There is little enough freestyle time anyway on a club night and the franchsiee (and hopefully DJ) has half an eye on the commercial impact of stretching dancers. Is there any profit in it on a club night? If not ..what is the incentive for a franchisee to try to do so? They are not a charity, its a business (and a pretty succesfull one) so I'm not sure that the drive to do so will ever come from the established club set-up. (I fully apprecaite that this is a sweeping comment but I think that it covers the majority of standard MJ clubs).

The times I have seen new and more eclectic tracks introduced sucessfully, have always been prefaced by the DJ announcing them as an experiment ie "what do you think of this", and "please give me feedback".... Somehow this allows people to experience the challenge without having to like it, which then leads to them experiencing it for what it is... Without the announcement they would have left the floor.....

However, to add to another point made, I have been sitting at the side in one of Amir's ealing classes (because I arrived late I hasten to add) and overhearing other Hipsters punters saying "call this jive, its not what I come here to do, load of old rubbish if you ask me..." and other things of this ilk!! Some people just don't want to change or learn anything new and are happy with what they do...

Thats the balance; keeping those who want a challenge and want to experience new stuff, and not chasing away those who are very fond of their own particular rut....

FL

Magic Hans
26th-October-2004, 11:49 PM
You are absolutely right, Gus. From a business point of view it's not always good sense to be progressive! ...

It's a delicate balance we need to get right between keeping a thriving venue going and developing the dance potential of the punters ....

:yeah: :yeah:

Therein lies the crux! ... different ends of the spectrum. There will always be those poor (in my opinion) souls who fear risking anything, clinging to the safety of what they know. Then inexperienced dancers learning the ropes, and finally more experienced, risk-taking, exploring blazer trailers, thirsting for what is new and around the next corner.

It would seem that money is to be made from the first to .... however, maybe with time, the trail-blazers will bring a few with them, eventually enough to make real difference!

... then again, there's always that dancing in the aisles at some classical concert!!! :yum:

Gadget
27th-October-2004, 01:05 PM
My point is that we can become too automatic in our dancing at times once we have a stock of Ceroc moves to draw on. Even the best dancers do it, including competition winners. We can't unlearn a dance form, and there is no reason why we should because there's nothing wrong with the dance form itself, but by choosing to dance to something unusual we have to think more about how we are going to interpret the music and dance to it. I am not calling for Swan Lake to be played at Ceroc venues, I was merely making a point about the way some music is churned out so predictably at some venues, in a way that doesn't always challenge us to develop our musicality and style. It would though, I'm sure, be highly educational to Ceroc to Swan Lake as an experiment.
Every time we want to improve, we have to 'unlearn' the way we have been doing something and 'relearn' it a different way.
We only become automatic in our dancing if we dance the same moves to the same tunes with the same people. And who does that?
Dance is an expression of the music; if you find the music boring and repetative, then your dancing will get boring and repetative. I think that rather than change the music to extreemes, it would be better to change the way you listen to the music:
- Most folk will listen to the beat and let it dictate most of their dance - a low sound of base/drum or high sound of symbols.
- If they are using "musical interpritation" then they will probably be dancing to the lyrical pitch and structure: if you whistle a tune, you whistle the lyrical path of the song and that's roughly what you dance to.
- Listen beyond that to the background harmonys and chords that underline various sections in the music.
- Hear the volume and 'build-up' of instruments and vocals in a track
- Notice how some instruments almost follow the lyrical notes, but break-away and re-join it.
- Listen for the musical 'clues' that a track is about to change; a change in chords, a double beat, a building crushendo, a lyrical gap,...

If you can pick out all of this and add some elements of it into your dancing, then no track is boring or repetative.

If you want a challenge in your dancing, you don't need challenging music - you just need to approach the existing music from a different angle. You don't need challenging moves - you just need to match the moves to the music. And get your partner to follow them.

If none of the above challenges you or improves your dancing then :worthy:

latinlover
27th-October-2004, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=Gadget].......If you can pick out all of this and add some elements of it into your dancing, then no track is boring or repetative.

If you want a challenge in your dancing, you don't need challenging music - you just need to approach the existing music from a different angle. You don't need challenging moves - you just need to match the moves to the music. And get your partner to follow them. QUOTE]


have you tried this approach to ....."call on me "by eric Prydz???

if you can find anything worth interpreting then :worthy:

MartinHarper
27th-October-2004, 02:19 PM
We only become automatic in our dancing if we dance the same moves to the same tunes with the same people. And who does that?

Well... I've found chunks of my dancing becoming automatic (eg, step back on "1") - though I only notice when trying something new where the automatic stuff conflicts with my conscious aim. I'm not sure if this is what starlight meant?

Lovely post, btw.

Rachel
27th-October-2004, 02:56 PM
... change the way you listen to the music:
- Most folk will listen to the beat and let it dictate most of their dance - a low sound of base/drum or high sound of symbols.
- If they are using "musical interpritation" then they will probably be dancing to the lyrical pitch and structure: if you whistle a tune, you whistle the lyrical path of the song and that's roughly what you dance to.
- Listen beyond that to the background harmonys and chords that underline various sections in the music.
- Hear the volume and 'build-up' of instruments and vocals in a track
- Notice how some instruments almost follow the lyrical notes, but break-away and re-join it.
- Listen for the musical 'clues' that a track is about to change; a change in chords, a double beat, a building crushendo, a lyrical gap,... Excellent points, and certainly something I try to do but need to work on a lot more! My problem is when I'm reading a song in a completely different way from my partner who is leading the dance. I just can't bring myself to blank out the way I'm hearing the song or disregard the bits that I want to accentuate, because my partner has a completely different interpretation. Which I'm well aware is the mark of a bad follower!!

Funnily, Marc and I were having real trouble dancing to a particular song the other night - he was reading it as upbeat and latin-y (which the melody/base was) but I just saw it as slow and languid which were how the vocals & lyrics were speaking to me. This then degenerated into a (good-natured) argument about - well why the hell should we always dance it your way, what about the way I see the song!!

And then I had to ask - don't you listen to the lyrics in music? Of course he does sometimes, but I guess we have such different backgrounds in music - his being scratch/hard core/drum n bass, and mine being more folk-orientated (I mean, along the lines of Bob Dylan, John Sebastian, Leonard Cohen etc - where the lyrics are the most outstanding feature). So it's not surprising we focus on different things in a song.

I guess there are just 2 main answers to this - 1. start being the lead in dances, rather than the follower, 2. look for gaps in the lead where I can add in some styling according to my interpretation. Or I guess there's a 3rd option - stop moaning and learn to follow properly!!

Hm, there's always so much to learn with this dancing lark, huh?!
Rachel

Andreas
28th-October-2004, 08:50 AM
Music has always been an issue and will remain one in future. I for example got bored out of my tree listening to the same (to me) uninspiring music, which is played at Ceroc/MJ venues because they are easy to dance to. I like challenging music but most of all music with plenty of attitude and not many venues provide that. Which is understandable because it is more difficult to dance to.

To me interpretation of music comes before all and when I am not inspired I am not likely to visit the venue again, not frequently anyway.

For that reason I prefer live music. It is like a wildcard because you never know what may hit you next (not who :D).

Gadget
28th-October-2004, 09:29 AM
My problem is when I'm reading a song in a completely different way from my partner who is leading the dance. I just can't bring myself to blank out the way I'm hearing the song or disregard the bits that I want to accentuate, because my partner has a completely different interpretation. Which I'm well aware is the mark of a bad follower!!
You may be many things, but that is not one of them. :flower:
It’s a partner dance – you should dance together. The man is leading; not dictating. Is it arrogance to expect the lady to follow the music you are hearing rather than how she hears it?
I am always in awe of good followers who can pick up on what part of the song the man is dancing to and match it :worthy: If I find that my partner seems to be ‘out of time’, then I will try and find her rhythm {…sometimes at the same time as she is trying to find mine – that can be interesting. :rolleyes:}

In the example of energetic & languid, I think that the contrast could work well – as long as the lead does not drown out the lady’s perception and she is given opportunity to express it. Perhaps this is where some “style” elements may be used to semi-hijack the lead? Taking time to turn over a couple of beats, casual stroll in walks, slight pauses before complying with the lead, using large graceful movements to contrast the lead’s energetic, smaller movements. It could work well with mark’s style of moving himself as much/more than the lady and your elegant stylings. Or it could look like a bee buzzing round a flower.


I guess there are just 2 main answers to this - 1. start being the lead in dances, rather than the follower, 2. look for gaps in the lead where I can add in some styling according to my interpretation. Or I guess there's a 3rd option - stop moaning and learn to follow properly!!
Go for option 2 {princeeeess… Fiona!}; that is following properly in my books.


Hm, there's always so much to learn with this dancing lark, huh?!
As someone much smarter than me said: "The more you know, the more you realise how vast your ignorance is."

MartinHarper
28th-October-2004, 09:29 AM
My problem is when I'm reading a song in a completely different way from my partner who is leading the dance.

What sort of problems does this cause?
I ask because in a song you can have the bass line having one sort of feel, and the lyrics another, and yet the song works well together. Could you do the same thing in a dance - two people reading a song differently - yet still dancing as a partnership?

Bangers & Mash
28th-October-2004, 09:55 AM
The times I have seen new and more eclectic tracks introduced sucessfully, have always been prefaced by the DJ announcing them as an experiment ie "what do you think of this", and "please give me feedback".... Somehow this allows people to experience the challenge without having to like it, which then leads to them experiencing it for what it is... Without the announcement they would have left the floor.....


I have come to the realisation that the music and the DJ carry an awesome responsibility at CEROC venues as I recently returned to a couple of local venues that appear to be dying a death.

At one of the venues, the floor was crowded right up until about 15 minutes after the intermediate class - but the music had been pretty awful all evening. Some of us left and went down to the bar because we felt that "our dancing was off". Half an hour later we returned and the hall had only 10 couples left and the music had suddenly improved (with one hour to go).

The problem was that the venue never seemed to recover because the people that left never came back to that venue.

So, I agree with foxylady - experiment by all means but

- talk to the dancers, let them know you are experimenting
- encourage feedback during the night
- make sure that the last track of the night is a popular one so that everybody leaves on a high

Graham
28th-October-2004, 09:58 AM
What sort of problems does this cause?
I ask because in a song you can have the bass line having one sort of feel, and the lyrics another, and yet the song works well together. Could you do the same thing in a dance - two people reading a song differently - yet still dancing as a partnership?
The problem is repeated loss of connection. Usually if there are two interpretations the pace and energy level of each is quite different, so each is constantly surprised by what the other is doing, and often they'll both be trying to do incompatible things. Having complementary styles could certainly work, it's just that being able to achieve it in a freestyle partner dance would be exceptionally difficult.

jivecat
28th-October-2004, 10:49 AM
Excellent points, and certainly something I try to do but need to work on a lot more! My problem is when I'm reading a song in a completely different way from my partner who is leading the dance. I just can't bring myself to blank out the way I'm hearing the song or disregard the bits that I want to accentuate, because my partner has a completely different interpretation. Which I'm well aware is the mark of a bad follower!!

What a fantastic thread with so many excellent contributions.

As my technical competence has grown I've been able to pay more attention to the music and find it quite amazing how many leaders ignore all features of the music except for the basic beat. At one time I would have been quite grateful just for that but my idea of a good partner at the moment is someone who is hearing the music and responding to it, taking me with them. I haven't reached Rachel's level of conflicting interpretations yet but I am getting uncomfortably aware of trying to impose my own ideas on leaders - like hesitating very slightly during a break 'cos I can hear it but he's in the middle of leading some complicated octopus-type thingy right through it. It must be infuriating for them.

When it comes to musical interpretation what frustrates me is the feeling that less is very often more - that what is needed is not a super-complicated move but often something laughably simple like an arm-jive -because it matches the music.





I guess there are just 2 main answers to this - 1. start being the lead in dances, rather than the follower, 2. look for gaps in the lead where I can add in some styling according to my interpretation. Or I guess there's a 3rd option - stop moaning and learn to follow properly!!


Well, exactly. Trouble is, Option 1 is going to take me years. Although I can already do an arm-jive! Option 2 I'm already working on but loads more to be done. Option 3b - not an option, really :blush:. Option 3a - pigs might fly!

A little learning is a dangerous thing,
Drink deep or taste not of that Pieran spring.

Alexander Pope.

Trish
28th-October-2004, 11:33 AM
[QUOTE=Gadget].......If you can pick out all of this and add some elements of it into your dancing, then no track is boring or repetative.

If you want a challenge in your dancing, you don't need challenging music - you just need to approach the existing music from a different angle. You don't need challenging moves - you just need to match the moves to the music. And get your partner to follow them. QUOTE]


have you tried this approach to ....."call on me "by eric Prydz???

if you can find anything worth interpreting then :worthy:

Strangely I agree with you both! With something even slightly worth interpreting, then Gadget's approach is brilliant, but I agree with Latinlover, that some songs just aren't interesting and varied enough to do anything that interesting to. The most you can hope for is a bit of a pattern through the verse and perhaps a change in pattern in the chorus. It seems to be a fifty fifty mix between the two type of music. I tend to dance and have conversations through the boring songs, and I'll either try to find a guy who can lead and listen to the music, or I'll give up and lead (and hopefully interpret the music) to the good songs.

The problem I find is that a lot of the guys I know don't actually listen to the music at all apart from the beat - i think they're just not aware of what's going on in it. Which is a shame. It's lovely when you find ones that do though! :clap: :worthy:

Trish
28th-October-2004, 11:43 AM
Although I love to dance with good male dancers, I find it frustrating to dance with those that don't listen to the music, so I would say to Rachel and Jivecat - Give up and lead!!! At least that way you can try to control hitting the breaks, and don't have to try to stop your partner dead half way through an octopus when they're trying to carry on!

Yes, it does take a while to learn, but it's much more rewarding!

Zebra Woman
28th-October-2004, 11:58 AM
What an interesting thread.... :clap:

I like what Gadget suggested , making the best of what is served up by active listening.

Although I have to agree with LAL that Call on me and other banging pop songs just leave me uninspired and weary :( That said, a fab lead can open my eyes to the music. I danced with LL to DTNA which I'd been sick of for 3 years and absolutely loved it, I really heard it for the first time. :worthy: :blush:

I have found ways of coping with some songs .....I enjoy jumping (at the right moment) during the Sugarbabes - Jump for your love. Sometimes the man joins in, although once I was in a basket and jumped. Ladies - never do that, the man ended up biting his lip! Everyday I learn something new.... :blush:

I have had trouble a couple of times with hearing a completely different rhythm to my partner. Lately it was with I Wish I Didn't Miss You Anymore - Angie Stone. I was amazed and could not tie in to the beat that my partner was hearing at all. It felt slow and bluesy to me, but upbeat to him. I'm convinced we were both right :confused:

Years ago I had trouble with a Salsa track where there is a shift of emphasis which I just couldn't get. I used to take a shoe off so no one would ask me to dance to it in the end. :sick:

Lynn
28th-October-2004, 12:06 PM
Although I love to dance with good male dancers, I find it frustrating to dance with those that don't listen to the music... Last night I decided to take advantage of an empty living room that is ‘between suites’ (new one arriving tomorrow :clap: ) and practice dancing. After explaining to Paul in about 2 sentences what a ‘break’ was and putting on some bluesy music, I noticed that not only was he hitting the breaks (OK its just a ‘stop when the music stops’ but we’ll think of more interesting things to do as we continue to practise) but listening for them if there had been one earlier in the track in about the same place. (he is a musician which helps a lot). Also listening for the end of the track and trying to finish with a lean/seducer. Not things he has really been taught – but a response to the music. We are all at a fairly basic level over here in Belfast but its encouraging when the guys are starting to ‘get’ the fact that you dance to the music and I was really pleased! :hug:

Almost an Angel
28th-October-2004, 12:08 PM
Although I love to dance with good male dancers, I find it frustrating to dance with those that don't listen to the music, so I would say to Rachel and Jivecat - Give up and lead!!! At least that way you can try to control hitting the breaks, and don't have to try to stop your partner dead half way through an octopus when they're trying to carry on!

Yes, it does take a while to learn, but it's much more rewarding!
:yeah:

I agree with Trish, learn to lead, :grin: on the down side I found leading quite tough at first :sad: but the good news is that only lasts for a while. I persevered through and now am quite happy leading. :clap: The fun starts when you can lead other people and because you are more aware of the music you can hit the breaks and let your partner play when the music allows, because you've been in the situation before you are more concious of allowing your partner the freedom.

Oh yeah did I mention the attention and admiring looks from the blokes. :devil: :devil: :devil:

Ste
28th-October-2004, 12:37 PM
I agree with Starlight's comment about trying a different style of music.

I am really into linking bodies of expertise. like when I was really into music and practising and jamming with people and sucking up to the best musos I was really surprised to find that a lot of serious musos were into martial arts as well ( like I was......I used to watch kung fu movies into the early hours to learn just small snippets of moves ).

When I practice guitar I like to practice to a classic rock band called Romeo's Daughter. I was thinking of practicing modern jive to it. I listen to a lot of hard rock and I would like to dance to it instead of play guitar against it.

The same goes for classical.

THis is not a unique idea. Amir has done this type of thing before.

The remarkable thing is that you really can dance to so many types of music!

MartinHarper
28th-October-2004, 12:37 PM
(As a lead, you) don't have to try to stop your partner dead half way through an octopus when they're trying to carry on!

Heh. I find I spend a fair bit of time trying to stop my partner when she's trying to carry on, or else trying to get my partner to carry on when she's trying to stop. :)

Rachel - have you considered option 4: learning another dance?

Magic Hans
28th-October-2004, 12:41 PM
[QUOTE=Trish]Strangely I agree with you both! With something even slightly worth interpreting, then Gadget's approach is brilliant, but I agree with Latinlover, that some songs just aren't interesting and varied enough to do anything that interesting to. The most you can hope for is a bit of a pattern through the verse and perhaps a change in pattern in the chorus. It seems to be a fifty fifty mix between the two type of music. ...
QUOTE]

:yeah: :yeah:
Yet more agreement! 3 things come to mind
a) Being inspired
b) Being aware, and looking for variations
c) Balance between listening and and feeling (auditory and kineasthetic for NLPers)

a) Tango music inspires me, no matter the moves, and find it easier to let my heart and soul be moved by it. Watching refreshingly different dancers and dance styles, especially when they are good, also inspires me.

b) With music that inspires me less, I find it difficult to listen out for the variations. It can be hard work and sometimes I'm up for it. Sometimes I simply haven't the inclination! .... maybe tired, had a bad day, etc.

c)Some people have a strong auditory sense, and will, inevitably, love to respond how they can to little auditory subtleties and variations. Others can be far more grounded, and kineasthetic, and more prone to dancing to a strong beat .... African drums (with no melody) being at the extreme end.

Maybe there's something in that [c)] about a couple being more in sync to aid interpretation, connection and rapport?? .... don't know!

Take care. .. Ian

Rachel
28th-October-2004, 12:55 PM
Rachel - have you considered option 4: learning another dance? :grin: You mean of the non-partnered variety?
R.

spindr
28th-October-2004, 01:06 PM
As my technical competence has grown I've been able to pay more attention to the music and find it quite amazing how many leaders ignore all features of the music except for the basic beat. At one time I would have been quite grateful just for that but my idea of a good partner at the moment is someone who is hearing the music and responding to it, taking me with them.

Well, I'm going to stick up for the leaders here -- there's a potential for information overload when leading -- not just beginners, either. If the floor's crowded, then it can be quite a challenge to get a basic dance in an ever changing environment -- musicality tends to drop by the wayside. I have a vague impression that perhaps followers have a little more time to listen and interpret what is happening now, whereas leaders are probably thinking slightly less in the present and more in the previous class (if doing a "new" move) or planning ahead, etc.

SpinDr.

P.S. It cuts both ways -- sometimes I *want* to dance through a break -- I don't want to be "a sheep" (sorry Greg) and play statues. Or, I want to highlight the fact that the music's got a syncopation or whatever and try to lead two turns in two musical beats, rather than the usual MJ one -- not many followers seem to be able to do that :(

Almost an Angel
28th-October-2004, 01:53 PM
P.S. It cuts both ways -- sometimes I *want* to dance through a break -- I don't want to be "a sheep" (sorry Greg) and play statues. Or, I want to highlight the fact that the music's got a syncopation or whatever and try to lead two turns in two musical beats, rather than the usual MJ one -- not many followers seem to be able to do that :(

I'm always open to new moves and new variations etc. I don't promise to follow them perfectly the first time :blush: but I normally have them by the 2nd time. :D

I especially like innovative guys who do think outside the MJ bubble. there are a number of teachers around currently who are specifically looking for new and innovative ways of incorporating other dance styles ie Amir,Adam & Taz etc etc.

mick
28th-October-2004, 02:08 PM
When I first started MJ, I loved to hear all the latest disco beats, it made the whole thing feel more acceptable.

As I'd only ever been to disco's before, the thought of partner dancing to Franck Sinatra and the like, in a church hall, with a fair quota of older men, didn't sit well with me! :rolleyes:

I felt I had to justify myself to my non dancing friends by saying things like, 'We dance to all the latest chart stuff! It's not old fuddy duddy music!' (Even though at home, I have a large music collection, with all sorts of different music) :waycool:

The boom boom boom of the latest chart stuff was easy to dance too and that was the main thing! As I was just about coping with simple routines!

Style and musicality hadn't even been considered. :what:

Then, as I got more 'into' the dancing the pre-formed prejudices vanished, I then realised, there's more to this.

So now, I can follow in time and the steps are becoming easier, muscle memory has clicked in.
And I've started to 'feel' the music, play with it and experiment a bit. I hear the breaks and I'm able to do something with them. :D

But sadly now, a whole night of constant boom boom boom music, has become boring and irritating! :sad:

Can I call this progress? :blush: :D

Try Eric Prydz - Call On Me

MartinHarper
28th-October-2004, 02:08 PM
:grin: You mean of the non-partnered variety?
R.
As it happens, I was thinking of Lindy and WCS. WCS in particular is supposed to have a lot of room for independant female musicality. But yeah, Solo dancing has its benefits - and for guys too.

latinlover
28th-October-2004, 02:11 PM
this is a great thread!

as far as learning to lead the breaks etc. is concerned it took me a long time to get there ,because I wasn't confident of how to carry on once I'd stopped!

I have to admit I probably never would have bothered if it hadn't been for a particularly talented and demanding spouse! :worthy:
now, of course I absolutely love it and interpretation of an interesting number is what makes dancing such a thrill for me. That said, a good partner can make a difference as well - for instance I was dancing to Lionel Richie"Dancing on the Ceiling"(which I don't really think much of) with Lory, and we had a FABULOUS time(well I did anyway - I hope she did!) :wink:

I think alot of beginner guys are just so relieved to find they can get through a freestyle dance without a ****-up that the thought of making it difficult again never enters their heads

and Rachel, stop putting your dancing down you are one of the best! :worthy: