Cool Catz - Putting our money where our mouth is

[Gus]

Over last year or so there has been much debate about the need (or not) for a club catering for the more experienced dancers (notice I'm not saying advanced dancers). Many opinions were offered, a few arguments occurred .. and for the most part not a lot seems to have happened in response. Scot is now in the process of running a workshop series to target this market (and we all hope that this venture works). Down South ... Hipsters continues to be ... well, Hipsters. The more I've looked at what I think is needed, the more I've been drawn to the Hipsters concept and the type of music played by the likes of LL.

So .... we've now decided to put our money where my mouth was. We open Cool Catz on November 26th! We've approached Hipsters and they've been very supporting, allowing us to use the tag-line "The HIPSTERS of the North" :waycool: The club will be aimed at dancers with at least 12 months dance experience, it not a beginners club. Its not every Friday .. because I'm not sure that dancers will want it EVERY Friday (and there are venues issues) but we've got one venue for freestyles and a similar sized venue for club nights, nearer to my Northwich MJ club.

The idea is to have a first lesson of WCS, with a second lesson of either Blues or 'more challenging' MJ ... not focusing on complex moves, but looking at improving dance through footwork, style and lead. The music will try to stay away from the 'standard/safe' music and we shall be looking to play more Nu-Swing, Latin and R&B to give the dancers something to play with.

Will it work?? Dunno. But I think its worth giving it a shot. To date I've had a lot of negative feedback about whether the North was ready for such a format and especially as regards the music. Well ... we ran a trial night last Friday with LL playing one of his excellent sets ... and it just blew away all those who came ... loads of good feedback ... and on the back of that success we're going to give it a go.

Why this posting ... well, like any venture, I need feedback and idea to make this work. We're trying to be very careful not to hack off any of the existing dance organisations in the area. We really do see this club as offering something different and complimentary. So ... any suggestions about how best to make this work?

[Gordon J Pownall]

Go for it..........Give it large and the very best of success and luck Gus...... :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Trish]

Sounds excellent to me! I only wish I was anywhere near you (or Hipsters for that matter - 2 hours drive on a week night is too much for me!)

Good luck with it - if it works, could you do a countrywide tour taking in the Peterborough area?!

[Minnie M]

Sounds excellent to me! I only wish I was anywhere near you ...............Good luck with it ...

:yeah:
Good luck from me too.... Sounds fabby :clap: :cheers: :kiss: :yeah:

[TheTramp]

:yeah:

All the best Gus. Hope that it works (just in case I'm ever down that way one night when it's on!!).

Trampy

[Gus]

Good luck with it - if it works, could you do a countrywide tour taking in the Peterborough area?!Call me cynical but I can't see a Ceroc Franchisee welcoming us to any area near them. We are trying to stay neutral but given past experiences I have no doubt someone will have a problem with us. Just look at the all the trouble those reprobates at Hipsters (The Cool Catz of the South) have caused :wink: .

[jivecat]

I'm assuming the club is at Nantwich - you don't mention that, many readers may not know. Sounds absolutely fantastic and I would love to go but a 1 and a half to 2 hour drive involving the M6 on a Friday evening means that I probably will not. I'd be much more likely to make the effort on a Saturday. Is there any particular reason why you've chosen Fridays for the club?

[MartinHarper]

Will there be milk at the bar?

[latinlover]

Good luck Gus
it's unlikely I'll ever get there but I wish you well
Neil

[Gus]

I'm assuming the club is at Nantwich Urrghhh no. :blush: Ceroc Nantwich have a fatwah out on me so I'm staying well clear.

I havent gone into the detail as we havent finalised the press release yet, awaiting feedback from a few contributors before we 'go to press'. However, the two venues we will be using are; Knutsford Civic Centre (near to M6 Jnc 19) for freestyles and Middlewich Civic Hall (venue for our previous club, between Northwich and Crewe) for the main classes.

We've picked Fridays to avoid clashes with other MJ clubs in the area. The use of two venues will hopefully allow more people to come and try it out. Also means that travelling dancers will often be able to come to Cool Catz on a Firday then a standard MJ freetstyle on a Saturday!

[Trish]

Call me cynical but I can't see a Ceroc Franchisee welcoming us to any area near them. We are trying to stay neutral but given past experiences I have no doubt someone will have a problem with us. Just look at the all the trouble those reprobates at Hipsters (The Cool Catz of the South) have caused :wink: .

Yes, you're quite right no doubt - I wasn't really serious about the tour - can't imagine Phil Roberts going for the idea unfortunately! :sad: I'll have to figure out how far away Nantwich is, no doubt too far, but at least the idea is spreading, so it might get to the Ceroc Central area in about, oh, 10 years perhaps... !

[Trish]

Sorry I've just re-read this - it sounds really cynical and depressed - I'm not like that really :wink:

[Dance Demon]

Good on ya Gus. Sounds like a good move & I hope it works,. Will try to get down sometime..... :cheers:

[Gus]

Good on ya Gus. Sounds like a good move & I hope it works,. Will try to get down sometime..... :cheers:Thnaks for all the positive vibes :grin: One minor problem ... instead of LL or JB ... we've got me ... instead of Viktor/Nigel/AMir ... they've got ahem ... me :sick: So ... what I lack in expertise and experience I've got to compensate in making sure I know what the punters want. There are a fair few people who just dont do lessons anymore ... so I need to understand what it is they WANT from a lesson in order to tempt them back.

We are lucky in that we've got Chris T teaching WCS at the club. Very experienced dancer, with great non-MJ expertise (ballroom and line dancing background). But what else do you think the punters want (and please dont say The Mavericks). If you were in the area what would you want to see?

[jivecat]

Urrghhh no. :blush: Ceroc Nantwich have a fatwah out on me so I'm staying well clear.



Sorry, I knew there were some politics, just couldn't remember exactly what!



Also means that travelling dancers will often be able to come to Cool Catz on a Firday then a standard MJ freetstyle on a Saturday!

:what: Surely nobody would be that obsessed? :wink:


BTW, I'd be delighted to see someone giving Ceroc Central a bit of competition. It's a bit of an eye-opener to see that they charge the highest prices around for exactly the same MJ product as everyone else. Higher even than the holy sanctum of Hipsters. (No you don't sound cynical, Trish, just observant) Although I don't know what prices you charge either, Gus. :wink:
Ceroc Central have been ruthless about stamping on competition and the result is that I don't feel that my desire for a variety of reasonably priced MJ events across the Midlands is being met. Compared with what I hear about the south of the country I think we are poorly off. So maybe I will make the effort to get to Nant, sorry, Northwich after all!

[jivecat]

So maybe I will make the effort to get to Nant, sorry, Northwich after all!

Sorry, Middlewich, I think I must be going Knuts!

[Lounge Lizard]

good luck mate it will work I am sure, I was really impressed with your Thursday Northwich class night and the turn out on friday was amazing
I can see regular trips north for me & Evelyne

Trish, The Lounge Lizard in your area - or any area in the UK - YES NO PROBLEMS

We have everything you need to put on a swing and blues night, you find the hall we do the rest, we are happy to work for/with any organiser or individual anywhere...........sorry Gus nicking your thread.

LL

[Gus]

Trish, The Lounge Lizard in your area - or any area in the UK - YES NO PROBLEMS

We have everything you need to put on a swing and blues night, you find the hall we do the rest, we are happy to work for/with any organiser or individual anywhere...........sorry Gus nicking your thread.LLYou bounder sir ... never catch me doing that! :devil:

Actualy .. its spot on with the rest of the thread. The problem is persuading dancers that there is a world of dance outside there current 'safe zone' of music that they might enjoy. I've pro-actively used LL's rep and expertise as a stalking horse ... and its drawn out dancers onto the floor to music they would never have tried before. This brings out a chicken and egg question. What comes first .. the dance expertise to dance to this music, or the music to encourage the dancers to try to advance their danceing? Either way, I can think of no better way of upping the ante in your area than inviting LL to play a gig.

So ... who is going to risk taking on the might of the Mighty Ceroc Central empire and try to set-up a LL gig? The challenge is on!! Come to think of it ... why dont more Ceroc franshisees just book him for a gig?

[bigdjiver]

... So ... who is going to risk taking on the might of the Mighty Ceroc Central empire and try to set-up a LL gig? The challenge is on!! Been done, :worthy: and more than once. Jook Jive (www.bluesdance.og.uk) have hosted two well appreciated LL events :clap: , and continues to spread the blues gospel. Next one brings in some American blues dance expertise. The Ceroc Central DJ's that I am familiar with are top class IMO, and play to match their audience. It would be interesting to hear a blues set from them. Personally I would like to see a trial of double halls at the Corn Exchange, with an alternative to the normal fair (which suits so many people) in the smaller hall upstairs.

[bigdjiver]

BTW, I'd be delighted to see someone giving Ceroc Central a bit of competition. It's a bit of an eye-opener to see that they charge the highest prices around for exactly the same MJ product as everyone else. Higher even than the holy sanctum of Hipsters. It is a business, supply and demand. At that price Ceroc Central continues to grow, it has to be doing something right.


Ceroc Central have been ruthless about stamping on competition and the result is that I don't feel that my desire for a variety of reasonably priced MJ events across the Midlands is being met. Compared with what I hear about the south of the country I think we are poorly off. So maybe I will make the effort to get to Nant, sorry, Northwich after all! Please give an example of "ruthless". We have two competing MJ nights in Bedford, and two others within 12 miles. There are too many areas of the country that are a lot worse off. If CC maximises profits it can grow quicker.

[Daisy Chain]

There are a fair few people who just dont do lessons anymore ... so I need to understand what it is they WANT from a lesson in order to tempt them back.

But what else do you think the punters want (and please dont say The Mavericks). If you were in the area what would you want to see?

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: please

Ooo, must admit that nowadays, I'd much rather freestyle than do a lesson as I don't want to be taught any more moves that I'll never recognise in freestyle until it's too late :eek: (IMHO a lady doesn't need to know any moves if she follows like a good little lamb).

But I am interested in improving my style and musicality (really must try to metamorphose my Dame Edna tendencies into Natasha Kaplinksy). So this old ewe would love to be a Cool Cat.

Pity there won't be any Mavericks :sad:

Daisy

An Uncool Flower

[jivecat]

Please give an example of "ruthless".

When a rival club opened a Monday night in Leicester, Ceroc responded by opening a second night - Monday. When the first club closed - the Ceroc night closed soon after. Coincidence? Maybe - although neither night was particularly well-attended. The first club may have survived if Ceroc had not split the attendance figures. And now there is nowhere to dance on a Monday unless I drive 35 miles to Nottingham.

[Franck]

We open Cool Catz on November 26th! We've approached Hipsters and they've been very supporting, allowing us to use the tag-line "The HIPSTERS of the North" :waycool: Well, what a coincidence!!!

I was just about to announce a new club too :wink: The name I had in mind for the club was 'Hot Pussyz', and I was thinking of using the tagline:

"Hot Pussyz the 'Cool Catz' of Scotland" :whistle:

Seriously, good luck with the new venture and I hope you're successful and raise standards and expectations in the North! :cheers:

[Mary]

Wot! No Mavericks?!! Not coming then :sad:

Sound like a great idea Gus. I bet it really takes off, and I will make sure I come along if and when I am within range. Lots of luck with it. :clap:

M

[Lory]

Ooo, must admit that nowadays, I'd much rather freestyle than do a lesson as I don't want to be taught any more moves that I'll never recognise in freestyle until it's too late :eek: (IMHO a lady doesn't need to know any moves if she follows like a good little lamb).

But I am interested in improving my style and musicality

:yeah: to all the above!

The honest reason I still go to the lessons is for the opportunity to spot and say hello to any new people/talent that I might well miss, if I only went to the freestyle! :blush:

Sometimes, when I haven't got there in time, a partner might ask me, 'Did you do the lesson? When I reply 'no' they seem to hesitate about trying the routine out. :rolleyes: I never understand the reasoning behind this, as how do they know I've learnt all the other moves in their repertoire? :confused: And I manage to follow those adequately! :)

Like daisychain, I'm only really interested in 'styling' and 'musicality'. As far as I'm concerned, as a lady, when you've reached a certain level and know all the basic signals and are able to follow reasonably well, simply learning more and more new moves is pointless, unless your learning them with a regular partner! :o

P.s. hope is does well Gus! :hug:

pps. Franck, go for it! :wink:

[Trish]

Trish, The Lounge Lizard in your area - or any area in the UK - YES NO PROBLEMS

We have everything you need to put on a swing and blues night, you find the hall we do the rest, we are happy to work for/with any organiser or individual anywhere...........sorry Gus nicking your thread.

LL

Hi LL,

I enjoyed the Blues workshop the other weekend in Ampthill. I'll have to see if I can arrange something with some of the Peterborough dancers, that'd be good - I'll let you know if I get enough interested people - I agree with Gus though, a lot of them are scared of something new, so might not be interested - if it's possible I'll try to rise to the challenge though. Perhaps you could PM me what you charge, that way I'd have some idea of how many people I'd have to get interested! The other problem with Peterborough is a lack of good venues.

It's not that Ceroc Central don't do more advanced classes, but some them seem to be of the "here are a lot of complicated moves, don't worry about the musicality" variety, and some are also lifts and drops with fixed partners, which I can't go to, as I don't have a fixed partner. I think this musicality thing IS what the dancers who are fed up of normal classes often want - although it's harder to teach it IMHO, a lot of it is natural musical ability (just look at Aled Jones in Strictly Come Dancing), and also practice at the art and being aware of it.


Please give an example of "ruthless".

Apart from Jivecat's, the other example of ruthless behaviour is threatening someone that if they run an event on a Ceroc Central freestyle night they might be banned from Ceroc Central - I'm pretty positive this has happened (unless the person who told me was lying, in which case apologies to Phil - in any case it might not have been Phil directly that did the threatening - I'm covering my back here, as I don't want to get banned! Phil - if you read this please feel free to state your case!). I think this is bad, especially when the event was for charity and was a one off birthday party. The Bedford/Northampton/Daventry areas are better catered for than the Peterborough area though, we get a "Style" workshop about once every 18 months if that! - it's interesting that Peterborough is excellent at getting in beginners, but the percentages of higher standard dancers are a lot less than you'd expect.

Sorry this has turned into an epic!

[Daisy Chain]

:yeah: to all the above!

The honest reason I still go to the lessons is for the opportunity to spot and say hello to any new people/talent that I might well miss, if I only went to the freestyle! :blush:

:yeah:

I join in the lessons for this reason too. It's also an easy way to ask for a dance later with a god-like man who I might find too intimidating to ask during the freestyle. So it's a shame when lots of the men that I'd like to ask for a dance, but haven't the nerve, are propping up the bar during the lesson.

I wonder why they don't ask me? :tears:

Daisy

[spindr]

Best of luck running "Nipsters", Gus

SpinDr.

P.S. Let us know if you ever start your "Disenfranchised tour".

[Rachel]

I think this musicality thing IS what the dancers who are fed up of normal classes often want ... The Bedford/Northampton/Daventry areas are better catered for than the Peterborough area though, we get a "Style" workshop about once every 18 months if that! Have you got round to asking Phil or Emma if they'll run a style/musicality workshop in Peterborough yet? If there's the demand that you think there is, they might well deliver.


... It's not that Ceroc Central don't do more advanced classes, but some them seem to be of the "here are a lot of complicated moves, don't worry about the musicality" variety, ... Hmm, glad you only said 'some'! Which ones are you basing your opinion on? You've told me you've not been to Milton Keynes, West Bridgeford, Marcus Garvey, Leicester, Northampton (?), and what about the Monday Daventry classes, ...? True, you'll get some classes focussing on complicated moves, but you'll also find many which are very much based on musicality.
Rachel

[bigdjiver]

... Apart from Jivecat's, the other example of ruthless behaviour is threatening someone that if they run an event on a Ceroc Central freestyle night they might be banned from Ceroc Central ...I do not know the specifics of the case you refer to. I do know Phil has been badly burned by people using his good natured support for a "Charity" event to launch a rival club, and various people using his evenings for recruitment. Many commercial organisations would regard this sort of poaching as unacceptable behaviour. From what I have seen Ceroc Central are fairly tolerant of non-threatening one-off competing events.

[Trish]

Have you got round to asking Phil or Emma if they'll run a style/musicality workshop in Peterborough yet? If there's the demand that you think there is, they might well deliver.

Hmm, glad you only said 'some'! Which ones are you basing your opinion on? You've told me you've not been to Milton Keynes, West Bridgeford, Marcus Garvey, Leicester, Northampton (?), and what about the Monday Daventry classes, ...? True, you'll get some classes focussing on complicated moves, but you'll also find many which are very much based on musicality.
Rachel

OK, ok, I get the point, and perhaps I'd exaggerating to get my point across! You are in the fortunate position to be able to get to these things, where I can't always travel that far, or I could if I wanted to, but it's not fair on Pete. I'd love to go to Daventry as my regular venue, but it's nearly an hour and a half away, too far for me on a weeknight, although I realise you sometimes travel a lot further. And yes, I'm sure you're right a lot of the workshops do teach some (or perhaps loads of?) musicality - but they don't advertise them as musicality workshops, and some of us have to pick and choose what we go to based on the advertising. I've just looked on the website to make sure this is right, and only one out of eighteen workshops (mostly beginners/intermediate) advertise musicality. True, I should go to that one - perhaps I will, rather than moaning on this forum! :)

Yes, I have asked Phil and Michaela on various occasions - face to face and by email, about style workshops in Peterborough, they say yes, that'd be great, talk to Dave and Les. (Venue managers, for those that don't know Peterborough). So I do that, and absolutely nothing happens. Les reckons Mick and Emma are too busy teaching elsewhere (which looking at the list may well be the case), but I can't see why they can't train some of the other teachers to do this - Marc could do it for example. I have tried though, honestly!

As to the demand, I'm not sure. I have got lists together of people who are interested before now, but as nothing happens it's difficult to know who would sign up if the course was offered as a definite. There are a lot of intermediate dancers in Peterborough who don't really think much about their style/musicality, but is that because they don't want to, or aren't offered the opportunity? Perhaps I'm one of a very few who are actually interested. The last time they ran a style workshop at Peterborough it was filled in no time though.

You are right that I should travel further. But perhaps I'm selfish and want everything to come to me :wink: .

Sorry Rachel, I bow to your greater knowledge of the subject (honestly!) :worthy: but I still feel like Peterborough is treated like some backwater, and noone cares about us. Maybe I should move house! :grin:

[Trish]

I do not know the specifics of the case you refer to. I do know Phil has been badly burned by people using his good natured support for a "Charity" event to launch a rival club, and various people using his evenings for recruitment. Many commercial organisations would regard this sort of poaching as unacceptable behaviour. From what I have seen Ceroc Central are fairly tolerant of non-threatening one-off competing events.

Yes, I agree I was also surprised at this, but the lady who told me was quite upset by it all, so I believed her. I also know of other people who have run charity events in Phil's patch, presumably without threats. Perhaps it was just a one off, and he doesn't usually do that type of thing, don't know.

Anyway - I must get on with some work. Sorry if I've stirred things up, perhaps I'm just bitter and twisted!

Apologies for hijacking the thread!

Trish

[MartinHarper]

Drifting off-topic: sorry.


a partner might ask me, 'Did you do the lesson? When I reply 'no' they seem to hesitate about trying the routine out. :rolleyes: I never understand the reasoning behind this, as how do they know I've learnt all the other moves in their repertoire?

I find it harder to lead moves I have just learnt, compared to moves that I dance routinely. As a rule, I try to avoid attempting to lead too many moves where my partner fails to decode my lead, particularly consecutively. Accordingly I am hesitant about leading a class routine to a partner who has not done the routine. For you, Lory, I am sure I can put together an entire routine consisting only of moves that I can't lead and you can't follow. :)

[jivecat]

Like daisychain, I'm only really interested in 'styling' and 'musicality'. As far as I'm concerned, as a lady, when you've reached a certain level and know all the basic signals and are able to follow reasonably well, simply learning more and more new moves is pointless, unless you're learning them with a regular partner!


:yeah:

[jivecat]

...... a god-like man........

Daisy

Ach, none of them are that god-like! Just get stuck in there, girl! If they agree to dance with you, fine, if they don't, you can have fun slagging them off as an insufferable hotshot. A win/win situation, surely? :wink:

[jivecat]

Marc could do it for example.

Don't think there's much Marc needs to be taught about musicality!
:worthy:

[jivecat]

Hi LL,


It's not that Ceroc Central don't do more advanced classes, but some them seem to be of the "here are a lot of complicated moves, don't worry about the musicality" variety, and some are also lifts and drops with fixed partners, which I can't go to, as I don't have a fixed partner. I think this musicality thing IS what the dancers who are fed up of normal classes often want - although it's harder to teach it IMHO, a lot of it is natural musical ability (just look at Aled Jones in Strictly Come Dancing), and also practice at the art and being aware of it.




I don't think the standard Ceroc lesson format (whilst being very efficient at quickly enabling people to get on to freestyle level) lends itself easily to musicality teaching. Dancers have been conditioned to expect the model of 3 or 4 moves which are often so complicated in the intermediate class that all the teaching time is taken up with getting the class through it.

It would be more useful IMHO if attention was drawn to the features of the music, which would require quiet listening and attention. Then the class could be led through moves in response to what they had heard, but they would have to be very easy, basic moves so that the class was not being challenged by the physical and mental demands of learning complex new movements. They would then have some spare capacity for thinking about the music.

I agree with Trish that many men take a long time to become aware of the subtleties of the music. (I'm sure some leaders could report back on how good the ladies are.) I'm finding it increasingly frustrating to dance through my favourite song with a partner who doesn't seem to have heard any of it because they are solely focussed on the moves. I have some sympathy with them because I know how much effort it takes to learn those moves; however, I think this obliviousness to the music is encouraged by the current Ceroc teaching methods.

I know it doesn't have to be this way- I've been to classes held by Amir, David B and Simon Selmon, to name but three, where the focus was almost entirely on the music, interpretation and leading/following. I found those classes very useful and stimulating. Sadly, I think if classes of that type were taught at a standard Ceroc evening there'd be a large number of people at the back muttering "I don't see the point of this!" But please, please try it someone, 'cos I hope I'm wrong.

[Gus]

I know it doesn't have to be this way- I've been to classes held by Amir, David B and Simon Selmon, to name but three, where the focus was almost entirely on the music, interpretation and leading/following. I found those classes very useful and stimulating. Sadly, I think if classes of that type were taught at a standard Ceroc evening there'd be a large number of people at the back muttering "I don't see the point of this!" Cheers pal ... make me feel confident about it wont you! :( Seriously there is a twofold challenge. Firstly, the MJ lessons have to be interesting and yet challenging enough so that an adequate number of numbers continue to come back. Secondly, the MJ teachers need to be able to use model of teaching that are going to communicate in workshop-type clarity but form a stage. I don’t have all the answers yet ... though we've done a fair bit of initial work ... but I would love to invite teachers like Marc along to do a guest slot ... but not sure that Ceroc would be too happy ... and being perfectly honest you cant blame them if they did put a stop on that.

I think one key thing about this venture is that I see the North West having to stand on its hind two legs and take responsibility for the development of its dancers. I think that we have had a heavy reliance on the predominantly London based instructors ... but the only way that local instructors are going to make the grade is to try it for ourselves ... and the same applies to the music. I KNOW we're going to make mistakes, and occasionally probably fall flat on our face but we have to have the courage in our convictions to make this work.

I think the way that Ceroc Scotland has developed, especially over the last 2 years, has shown what can be achieved. There is a huge untapped talent in my region, especially from those who have engaged in the line-dance world. Anyone want have a laugh at line dancers?? Well, 4 of our top dancers (including Pistol Pete) come from that lineage ... oh and a certain FC ... so mock at your peril. You never know ... maybe in 18 months time we may even get requests for our Instructors and DJs to guest in London! :wink: :waycool:

[MartinHarper]

I think if classes of that type were taught at a standard Ceroc evening there'd be a large number of people at the back muttering "I don't see the point of this!"

Many people find change difficult - especially if they've yet to see the benefits. I think there's a lot to be said for giving some indication of what a class is going to be about in advance. It's one thing to turn up to a musicality workshop expecting to learn about music; it's another to turn up to a standard lesson, expecting to learn 3 or 4 increasingly bizzare ways for two people to contort their bodies, and get taught about music.

I do sometimes get the impression that if MJ organisers ran schools, they'd be teaching an A-level in Advanced Stuff, with individual modules in Not Telling, Might Change, and Ask Us Later. No doubt there are business reasons for the shyness...

[Trish]

I don't think the standard Ceroc lesson format (whilst being very efficient at quickly enabling people to get on to freestyle level) lends itself easily to musicality teaching. Dancers have been conditioned to expect the model of 3 or 4 moves which are often so complicated in the intermediate class that all the teaching time is taken up with getting the class through it.

It would be more useful IMHO if attention was drawn to the features of the music, which would require quiet listening and attention. Then the class could be led through moves in response to what they had heard, but they would have to be very easy, basic moves so that the class was not being challenged by the physical and mental demands of learning complex new movements. They would then have some spare capacity for thinking about the music.

I agree with Trish that many men take a long time to become aware of the subtleties of the music. (I'm sure some leaders could report back on how good the ladies are.) I'm finding it increasingly frustrating to dance through my favourite song with a partner who doesn't seem to have heard any of it because they are solely focussed on the moves. I have some sympathy with them because I know how much effort it takes to learn those moves; however, I think this obliviousness to the music is encouraged by the current Ceroc teaching methods.

I know it doesn't have to be this way- I've been to classes held by Amir, David B and Simon Selmon, to name but three, where the focus was almost entirely on the music, interpretation and leading/following. I found those classes very useful and stimulating. Sadly, I think if classes of that type were taught at a standard Ceroc evening there'd be a large number of people at the back muttering "I don't see the point of this!" But please, please try it someone, 'cos I hope I'm wrong.


:yeah:

[Trish]

I think one key thing about this venture is that I see the North West having to stand on its hind two legs and take responsibility for the development of its dancers. I think that we have had a heavy reliance on the predominantly London based instructors ... but the only way that local instructors are going to make the grade is to try it for ourselves ... and the same applies to the music. I KNOW we're going to make mistakes, and occasionally probably fall flat on our face but we have to have the courage in our convictions to make this work.


Good on you Gus, it's nice to see someone trying to break out of their comfort zone and try something different!

Don't be put off by what Jivecat just said, she said she though musicality was difficult to teach at a standard evening, but she quoted lots of examples of it being taught really well, so if it can be done, there's nothing to stop you doing it! The main thing is, if you have a non-standard format, you have a lot more time to play with these things, and also more likely people that want to learn something extra/different from the standard. I can't see any reason why it won't be a sucess! :clap:

[jivecat]

Cheers pal ... make me feel confident about it wont you! :(

Sorry, Gus. I didn't mean to put you down or discourage you in any way. Clearly, from what I and many others have said on the forum, there is a potential demand for classes where people can develop their dancing beyond the Ceroc model. I'd be delighted for someone outside London to provide for this and would no doubt be a paying customer where distance allowed!



I would love to invite teachers like Marc along to do a guest slot ... but not sure that Ceroc would be too happy ... and being perfectly honest you cant blame them if they did put a stop on that.

I don't think I understand why this should be - unless Ceroc have paid for their training? Or am i just naive?


] I think that we have had a heavy reliance on the predominantly London based instructors ... but the only way that local instructors are going to e the grade is to try it for ourselves ... and the same applies to the music. I KNOW we're going to make mistakes, and occasionally probably fall flat on our face but we have to have the courage in our convictions to make this work..........
You never know ... maybe in 18 months time we may even get requests for our Instructors and DJs to guest in London! :wink: :waycool:

Just in case anyone read it that way I absolutely did not intend to make any unfavourable comparisons between London-based instructors and provincial ones. I mentioned some names because they are foremost teachers and I would think many readers of the forum are familiar with the type of teaching they provide. I'm sure there are many others teaching just as effectively, or capable of doing so if they were not bound by the straitjacket of the Ceroc model. I'm not trying to pass comment on individuals in any way, I'm talking in general about the structure and content of classes.

I wish there was more emphasis in the Midlands on the "development of dancers". It is nice to see some vision in this respect and I wish you every success with it.

[bigdjiver]

I don't think I understand why this should be - unless Ceroc have paid for their training? I believe that, one way and another, Phil invests a lot in staff training. I recall him complaining, years ago, about a teacher costing him more than £2,000.

[Gus]

I believe that, one way and another, Phil invests a lot in staff training. I recall him complaining, years ago, about a teacher costing him more than £2,000.Very true ... but if I was inviting a teacher to my venue it woudnt be for their Ceroc training ... it would be for something extra ... and Marc is an example of a CTA graduate who has something different and tangible for more experienced dancers rather than just 'more' MJ. (No disrespect to CTA graduates ... after all I am one :waycool: )

[Rachel]

So .... we've now decided to put our money where my mouth was. We open Cool Catz on November 26th! ... The idea is to have a first lesson of WCS, with a second lesson of either Blues or 'more challenging' MJ ... not focusing on complex moves, but looking at improving dance through footwork, style and lead. The music will try to stay away from the 'standard/safe' music and we shall be looking to play more Nu-Swing, Latin and R&B to give the dancers something to play with. Sounds fantastic! We'll definitely look at coming for a visit sometime.


Very true ... but if I was inviting a teacher to my venue it woudnt be for their Ceroc training ... it would be for something extra ... and Marc is an example of a CTA graduate who has something different and tangible for more experienced dancers rather than just 'more' MJ. (No disrespect to CTA graduates ... after all I am one What a lovely thing to say - Marc would be so flattered!
Rachel x

[Gus]

Well ... we openned and the punters came :grin: Not sure if they all made sense out of what was thrown at them though. For most of teh dancers it was the first time theyve had a WCS lesson, been taken thriygh an advanced lesson that was short on moves but high on detail and I think the new music scared a few ... will be intersting to see how many come back :sick:

Having said all that, twas trult a great night. About 70 of the better dancers from the region and the pleasue of having Marc and Rachel bob in. From the feedback so far it seems like the format is want peope want. I was especially impressed by how well Chris and Victoria taught the WCS lesson ... really good. We even managed to tempt some of the local swing dancers into the class and they seemed to be having a good time as well.

Oh by the way. WARNING .... do NOT start having a quiet drink with Marc & Rachel after a dance night. It was 1/3 a bottle of gin, 2 bottles of wine, many bacardi and cokes and 5.30AM before they let me go to bed. ( :sick: ). SERIOUS party monsters :waycool:

[Tiggerbabe]

Oh by the way. WARNING .... do NOT start having a quiet drink with Marc & Rachel after a dance night.
Why? :innocent: Does it mess up your ability to type the day after :wink: :whistle: :whistle:

[Tiggerbabe]

I think the new music scared a few ...
You posting your playlist then Gus? :D

[Gus]

You posting your playlist then Gus? :DSorry ... but NO CHANCE. At least two of the local DJs in our region never post anything of theirs (and considering what they play thats just as well) but they are keen to use everyone else's hard work. I've no intention of letting my competitiors have all my hard work for free! Sorry if that sounds a little anal but after all the sh*t we've had to put up with, I'm not going to give the opposition any more help than I can :mad:

[Lounge Lizard]

Sorry ... but NO CHANCE. At least two of the local DJs in our region never post anything of theirs (and considering what they play thats just as well) but they are keen to use everyone else's hard work. I've no intention of letting my competitiors have all my hard work for free! Sorry if that sounds a little anal but after all the sh*t we've had to put up with, I'm not going to give the opposition any more help than I can :mad:I dont blame you I know of a few 'new' and regular DJ's that build their set's around the forum playlist
It takes a lot of time effort and money to find good original tracks, making them public to soon defeats the objective of discovering original music, and making your set unique.
LL

[Rachel]

... Oh by the way. WARNING .... do NOT start having a quiet drink with Marc & Rachel after a dance night. It was 1/3 a bottle of gin, 2 bottles of wine, many bacardi and cokes and 5.30AM before they let me go to bed. ( :sick: ). SERIOUS party monsters :waycool: Ahem – this definitely warrants a response! I never touched your bacardi!! That was all your own doing. (Ok, ok, I admit I owe you a bottle of gin …) Anyway, it wasn’t the drink or the 5.30 bedtime that was the problem. It was being thrown out of bed at some ungodly hour the next morning that was the problem!!!

But seriously, your hospitality was incredible – thanks, Gus! Party monsters indeed – YOU were the one who was going out clubbing the following night!! I’m still in recovery … (Although we did go to Ann & Pauls’ Ceroc freestyle in Newcastle which was great!)

Re Cool Catz - we had a fantastic night. The only shame was getting there too late for the WCS. But your advanced class was brilliantly taught – great choice of moves (the kind of moves that I’d love to do any time) which, on the surface, didn’t appear too difficult (except for one of them!). But they demanded so much balance and control and body awareness, as well as very good leading & following. It reminded me a bit of pilates – you think it’s easy until you try and do it properly … And then trying to add the style! The style tips were really useful - although I’ll still be working on those for years to come. But the basic tips, too, were often things that you rarely get to hear - like pulling up before you go down into a lunge, and tall men being aware of the height of their partner. Nicest of all, was that these tips were taught off-the-cuff, in response to how the class were doing, not just spieled out from a pre-planned script.

Enjoyed the music very much, too – especially the tango numbers. It’s a huge treat to have the chance to go to a new venue, get to dance with new people and, on top of all that, dance to music that you’ve never heard before. Actually, it could have been quite intimidating, as there were so many good dancers there – particularly the ladies. I could have been happy watching them all night. But an extremely friendly crowd, who were quite open to asking strangers to dance. Loved it!!
Rachel :cheers:

[Gojive]

(Although we did go to Ann & Pauls’ Ceroc freestyle in Newcastle which was great!)

Was that Newcastle, Staffs or Newcastle, err Geordie way Rachel?...please tell me it was the latter, I'd hate to think my dance partner and I missed out on a dance within walking distance over the weekend! :eek:

[Gus]

Was that Newcastle, Staffs or Newcastle, err Geordie way Rachel?...please tell me it was the latter, I'd hate to think my dance partner and I missed out on a dance within walking distance over the weekend! :eek:Urrrr .. the Geordy one. There is no Ceroc in Stoke at present (I had the sad task of closing the last club there back in 2000). HOWEVER, I believe a new ceroc club will be openning in Stoke this Feb :grin:

[Rachel]

Was that Newcastle, Staffs or Newcastle, err Geordie way Rachel?...please tell me it was the latter, I'd hate to think my dance partner and I missed out on a dance within walking distance over the weekend! :eek: Yep - Gus is right - it was the Geordie Ceroc Newcastle. But if you ever get a chance to go, I'd highly recommend it. [Is this on the wrong thread?] Ann & Paul (franchise owners/teachers/dj's) are the loveliest people you're ever likely to meet, the venue is gorgeous, and the music (esp if Paul's dj'ing) is fantastic. Oh, and girls, quite apart from Paul's wonderful dancing, there is a new rising star of Ceroc - Ann's son. He's only been dancing for a matter of months but it's a delicious experience. Must be in the family!
Rachel

Oh dear, this is ironic - I'm delivering a time management course this afternoon and what am I doing?? Wasting time on the forum! Oh well, breaks are important...

[Gus]

Looks like the Hipsters model may have something after all. Only a few weeks after Cool Catz led the way in setting up an 'experienced dancer' club in the North West, it looks like Blitz are following with a similar concept at Bowden. How long before Ceroc follow suite? OR ... have Ceroc an alternative formula .... didin't Ceroc Plus have a different offering to the standard Ceroc model? Come on guys, whats happening in your part of the countrry? Things seem to be moving (at last) towards providing something for the more experienced dancers ... or is it all smoke and mirrors?

[Dazzle]

But an extremely friendly crowd, who were quite open to asking strangers to dance. Loved it!!
Rachel :cheers:

I hope to enjoy a dance or two with you next time too Rachel if I ever get out from behind that pesky bar! :sick: HELP!

[mick]

Over last year or so there has been much debate about the need (or not) for a club catering for the more experienced dancers (notice I'm not saying advanced dancers). Many opinions were offered, a few arguments occurred .. and for the most part not a lot seems to have happened in response. Scot is now in the process of running a workshop series to target this market (and we all hope that this venture works). Down South ... Hipsters continues to be ... well, Hipsters. The more I've looked at what I think is needed, the more I've been drawn to the Hipsters concept and the type of music played by the likes of LL.

So .... we've now decided to put our money where my mouth was. We open Cool Catz on November 26th! We've approached Hipsters and they've been very supporting, allowing us to use the tag-line "The HIPSTERS of the North" :waycool: The club will be aimed at dancers with at least 12 months dance experience, it not a beginners club. Its not every Friday .. because I'm not sure that dancers will want it EVERY Friday (and there are venues issues) but we've got one venue for freestyles and a similar sized venue for club nights, nearer to my Northwich MJ club.

The idea is to have a first lesson of WCS, with a second lesson of either Blues or 'more challenging' MJ ... not focusing on complex moves, but looking at improving dance through footwork, style and lead. The music will try to stay away from the 'standard/safe' music and we shall be looking to play more Nu-Swing, Latin and R&B to give the dancers something to play with.

Will it work?? Dunno. But I think its worth giving it a shot. To date I've had a lot of negative feedback about whether the North was ready for such a format and especially as regards the music. Well ... we ran a trial night last Friday with LL playing one of his excellent sets ... and it just blew away all those who came ... loads of good feedback ... and on the back of that success we're going to give it a go.

Why this posting ... well, like any venture, I need feedback and idea to make this work. We're trying to be very careful not to hack off any of the existing dance organisations in the area. We really do see this club as offering something different and complimentary. So ... any suggestions about how best to make this work?

If I turn up, will I have to do some sort of a test to get in?

[Gus]

If I turn up, will I have to do some sort of a test to get in?Yes ... have you got £6. :whistle:

[mick]

Yes ... have you got £6. :whistle:

I thought it would cost much more than that to rub shoulders with all you advanced dancers (oops, sorry, I meant experienced dancers).

[ChrisA]

I thought it would cost much more than that to rub shoulders with all you advanced dancers (oops, sorry, I meant experienced dancers).
Well I expect Gus'll do you a special price of £10 or £12 :D

[DavidB]

I thought it would cost much more than thatyou could always bring some CDs for Gus to change

[Gus]

Well I expect Gus'll do you a special price of £10 or £12 :DTrue ... though I'm not sure that Mick will enjoy it ... if he dances to "Call Me" what will he make of our humble offering ...... :wink:

[Gojive]

Urrrr .. the Geordy one. There is no Ceroc in Stoke at present (I had the sad task of closing the last club there back in 2000). HOWEVER, I believe a new ceroc club will be openning in Stoke this Feb :grin:

Thanks Gus/Rachel. I was reading how you opened CC in Knutsford, then how Rachel stayed with you, then about the Newcastle freestyle......I put two and two together, and came up with a Julian Jive! :blush:

ps, I hope to be trying CC in the near future :waycool:

[Gus]

ps, I hope to be trying CC in the near future :waycool:Be good to see you. The concept is still developmental. It remains to be seen whether dancers will persevere with a 45 minute advanced Jive/Blues lesson .... time will tell. However, based on early feedback we're extending the freestyle and class nights through to midnight to give extra freestyle time .... seems fair enough :waycool: We are still confirming dates and venues for 2005, all on Fridays. We've already been asked about taking Cool Catz on tour ... so come Summer (when we think we know what we are doing :whistle: ) we hope to put on guest nights at a few venues across the UK. Know anyone/anywhere that would like us to come over? ... Drop us a line.

For more details on nights, try the link from www.coolcatz.co.uk.

[mick]

True ... though I'm not sure that Mick will enjoy it ... if he dances to "Call Me" what will he make of our humble offering ...... :wink:

I would feel totally out of place amongst all you advanced dancers.

[Gus]

I would feel totally out of place amongst all you advanced dancers.Where :confused: :confused:

Cool Catz is there to try to produce advanced dancers (whatever that may be). The basis is that we show dance technique and style points to competent dancers, and the dancers incorporate whatever suits them. Its not FAME Acadamy :rolleyes:

[ChrisA]

I would feel totally out of place amongst all you advanced dancers.
So?

What's the problem with feeling out of place? :confused:

If you're feeling out of place it means you'll be challenged, worked, stimulated, stretched, extended, taken out of your comfort zone, and given lots to think about. :clap: :cheers:

How can that be bad? When I started going to the Cool Catz of the south :innocent:, it intimidated the hell out of me, but at least I started learning again. And I didn't give up MJ as a result.

Chris

[Magic Hans]

hmmmm ....

methinks there's a difference between scales of:
inexperienced -> practiced, and
beginner -> expert.

I would say that the former is something to do with my past.
The more I've things done things, the better I'm likely to be at them.
The latter is something to do with my present.
The more expert I consider myself to be, the less I'm likely to allow myself to learn.

[Try teaching an expert something. They, of course, know it all!]

Should I ever become an expert, I would hope that a friend would do the honorable thing and shoot me! My intention is to maintain my beginner mentality, and aim to become a practiced beginner!!

As for comparing ourselves against others .... that's a completelty different kettle of fish, and potential can of worms(!!) which, I suggest, is left up to those selected/chosen to judge for competition purposes only!

Outside of competition, only two comparisons make any sense (imho), and they are comparisons between me now, with me yesterday, and me tomorrow!

More food for thought I hope [or maybe just a bowl of mental tripe!]

Ian

[Gus]

Should I ever become an expert, I would hope that a friend would do the honorable thing and shoot me! Not sure that anyone has ever mentioned EXPERTS. The aim of Cool Catz and similar concepts is to help dancers who feel they aren't progressing within the standard MJ class an environment where they CAN develop. Whether they develop from the lessons, the music or as a result of dancing within a concentration of better dancers ... who cares as long as the dancers DO feel that they are progressing.

Personal view, for what its worth, is that dance is a journey with no end destination in mind. I'm sure I speak for both Chris and myslef when we say that we are not standing in front of the dancers as experts. What we can offer are some new ideas or old ideae presented in a more accesible way. Many of the dnacers coming are already good ... but we can always get better ... but I dont see anyone becomeing an 'expert' by coming to CC.

[Magic Hans]

Not sure that anyone has ever mentioned EXPERTS. The aim of Cool Catz ....

You are quite right, Gus, and as you mention Cool Catz (which I hope goes well for you, and those who attend) is for dancers with (at least a little) experience.

Maybe I mean 'advanced', rather than 'expert'.

I hope I get the chance to come over some time!


:flower: Ian :flower:

[mick]

...........