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Magic Hans
24th-October-2004, 11:46 AM
Over the last few weeks, I've read a number of forum altercations (new and old) between various forum members, and it kind of saddens me; both in terms of the (unnecessary imho) ill-will cultivated between those arguing, and those on the side-lines.

It seems to take the following form:

[A]"You said this, and that is stupid!" [followed by some smiley or other]


[B]"I resemble [read resent] that opinion, and any by the way, what you said in some [some other unrelated thread] made no sense because [etc, etc, etc] .... Members X, Y and Z think the same too."

[A]"I was only joking when I said
and that is stupid Didn't you see the smiley? Can't you take a joke? Members A, B and C thought it funny, but not you. Grow up! However maybe I should have meant it when you bring unrelated topics up in a thread. Are you trying to make a mockery of the forum?"

[B]"Of course I wasn't mocking the forum. Can't you see by my [umpteen] million posts that I've been a loyal member for [umpteen] years and have got [millions of] reputation? I was simply defending myself and my reputation"

[A]"Defending yourself when I didn't even attach you? That is stupid!" [no smiley now!]"

[B]"I resent that opinion ..."

... and the circle starts.

Funnily this isn't the only forum where it happens. I'm sure that everyone appreciates just how much of the message is lost when reduced to meer text.[smileys or no smileys]. Last time I heard, only 7% of the message is contained within the words of a conversation (55% body language, 38% voice tone/quality).

Besides, "attacking" does not actually happen. The reality is that "taking offence" does. Mistakes, errors in judgement, assumption, projection do.



No one can make you feel inferior without your permission. Eleanor Roosevelt.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Mohandas Ghandi


How can we encourage people to take themselves and others more lightly? {that is, of course, how angels can fly!!}

Maybe something in FAQa Franck? or in the initial welcome email? Or maybe memories are short, and we simply need to raise it every so often.

Any ideas, anyone?

Sincerely [but lightly] .... Ian

TheTramp
24th-October-2004, 12:14 PM
Nice post.

However, I don't necessarily see reasoned, logical, pleasant discussion between people as that much of a problem - wherever that discussion takes place. It only becomes a problem when it degenerates into something that isn't the above, or that becomes personal. We don't all think the same, and hence, we will have differences of opinions, on many matters, and to many varying degrees. Debate/discussion about points is (IMHO) what the forum is for. In addition to the many thousands of 'lovey' posts about how we all do get on, and appreciate each other.

I've just had (and I'm sure that this was part of the reason for your post) a bit of a discussion about the awarding of rep with Minnie, then Andy, and Bigdjiver chipped in too. I don't have any ill-will towards any of them. Andy has been a long-term good friend, who I've stayed with on many occasions when I've been in the Brighton area. Lynda, I've also known as a friend for a long time. And I'll look forward to meeting Bigdjiver one day. As far as I'm concerned, what's been said on the forum, has not affected any of these friendships in any way - in the same way as if we'd discussed (note, careful non-use of the word argument) something that we disagreed on, down the pub, or over a coffee one night after dancing.

Trampy

MartinHarper
24th-October-2004, 02:04 PM
Disclaimer: I've not read the discussion Trampy refers to.

Usenet veterans tell how, once upon a time, every September would bring new people (uni students) to usenet, and it would take till October to get them all educated in the ways of usenet, how to commune without paralanguage, and so forth. All was well until next year, when the cycle repeated. Then, one year, AOL happened, and thus we live, still, in the September That Never Ended.

One difference between this type of internet discussion, compared to that down the pub, is the potential size of the audience: several, or several million. What may be in reality be a heated discussion between friends can give the impression to others of a raging flamewar. I try to be aware of (as Hans calls them) "those on the sidelines".

Zebra Woman
24th-October-2004, 03:23 PM
I wish people would have their rep discussions and personal arguments in private :rolleyes: . I get really fed up having to skip through all that irrelevant stuff to get back to the thread topic. I'm dial up at the moment so I have to pay for every minute, even worse! As I've said before, I wish the rep system had never been invented. And as for discussing it...ugghh

Oh no...now I'm doing it :eek:

bigdjiver
24th-October-2004, 04:57 PM
Hand grenade instructions:

"Pull out the pin, and throw it."

philsmove
24th-October-2004, 06:03 PM
I wish people would have their rep discussions and personal arguments in private :rolleyes: . I get really fed up having to skip through all that irrelevant stuff to get back to the thread topic.
:

:yeah: and im on broad band

Gus
24th-October-2004, 06:32 PM
:yeah: and im on broad bandComes back to whether this is a Forum for debate or a Forum for chit chat.

jivecat
24th-October-2004, 06:33 PM
When I first joined the forum I did find the occasional animosity slightly shocking and a bit scary. It took some getting used to and I never knew whether it was solely based on the dealings people had with each other online or whether scores were being settled from "real life" knowledge of each other. I still don't, in fact. So I am glad to read Trampy's assurances of sweetness and harmony between combatants!

I agree with the above posters that without accompanying facial expressions,
tone of voice and body language (is that what "paralanguage" is, Martin? :confused: ) it can be hard to interpret posts accurately. But I also think that this can make people less guarded about what they say online, and how they say it. If I'm driving my car and someone cuts me up then the air turns blue with oaths and expletives- but if I met the offending driver in the flesh I would, if I expressed any criticism at all, be absolutely polite and probably end by agreeing that I had got in the way in the first place.
In the same way, I think that posting on the forum insulates us from some of the realities of face to face communication so the arguments, sorry, discussions, are not quite the same as having a chat in the pub. It's much easier to make slightly hostile remarks or to pick someone's opinions to pieces if they're not sitting right opposite you but are actually hunched over a computer somewhere hundreds of miles away.

Having said that online discussions have lots of benefits. Not least, that everyone gets a chance to speak and be listened to which would certainly not be the case in the average pub discussion. Points can also be argued in much greater depth. Contradictory opinions would be a bit uncomfortable in everyday life but they make great reading!

Lynn
24th-October-2004, 07:39 PM
I agree with the above posters that without accompanying facial expressions,
tone of voice and body language (is that what "paralanguage" is, Martin? :confused: ) it can be hard to interpret posts accurately. I agree that sometime the ‘discussions’ can become a bit laboured over certain points, not least because there has been some misunderstanding. As Jivecat said, its much easier to misunderstand what someone is saying on here than in a face to face situation. But I would prefer it to be discussed and sorted out than left with perhaps someone feeling that they aren’t able to explain what they meant if someone has misunderstood them. People have the freedom to disagree and have different opinions on certain points. It doesn’t mean they dislike the other person, just disagree with something they have said (as Trampy has pointed out). :flower:

Andy McGregor
25th-October-2004, 02:00 AM
snip


Has anyone else noticed that Trampy's reputation score is currently 666 :wink:

.. they always hide their number somewhere :devil:

under par
25th-October-2004, 02:03 AM
Has anyone else noticed that Trampy's reputation score is currently 666 :wink:

.. they always hide their number somewhere :devil:

Your's is 667 so what are you trying to say!!!!

Andy McGregor
25th-October-2004, 02:06 AM
Your's is 667 so what are you trying to say!!!!

Something biblical ...

TheTramp
25th-October-2004, 02:28 AM
Something biblical ...
It's the number of the beast. Ah well. Found out!! :tears:

Trampy

Andy McGregor
25th-October-2004, 02:49 AM
It's the number of the beast. Ah well. Found out!! :tears:

Trampy

But now the numbers changed there's only a few of us insomniacs that will ever know his secret :whistle:

under par
25th-October-2004, 02:51 AM
But now the numbers changed there's only a few of us insomniacs that will ever know his secret :whistle:


What secret???

When???

:wink:

Andy McGregor
25th-October-2004, 04:23 AM
What secret???

When???

:wink:

And there are some insomniacs who are suffering from sleep/dance deprivation and don't really know what's going on :innocent:

Gadget
25th-October-2004, 10:29 AM
I agree with the above posters that without accompanying facial expressions, tone of voice and body language it can be hard to interpret posts accurately.
I dissagree. :wink: Not that it can be hard to read exactly what someone writes ('cos it can be), but that it is any harder than normal face-to-face communication.
Some people just don't think before they speak - some don't think before they type. Some have difficulty in getting an idea accross without a thousand words - some can't be bothered typeing in a thousand words. Some people read there own fears/prejudice/bias into(under) statements - others take them at face value.


In the same way, I think that posting on the forum insulates us from some of the realities of face to face communication so the arguments, sorry, discussions, are not quite the same as having a chat in the pub.
Correct - they are not, but the same social rules and ettequete should apply: hence the parallel that is often drawn.
Unfortunatly, some folk fail to grasp this and 'hide' behind their anonimity of a computer screen - a lot of 'actions' are taken without the forethought that they may actually want to come back into the pub again and talk to people.

I agree with the initial observation: there is a lot of "chatter" that should be reserved for PM's - and there is a lot of "I take offense at that" with responsive "it's not what I meant" that should again be reserved to PM's. I also think that any reference to reputation within posts is almost playground politics ("he stole my sweeties" and "look what she gave me") and lessens the impact of any following statement to the same level.

Discussions can be/are healthy and productive - a dissagreement of views and opinions expressed in arguments for/against a subject.
These Tips for better posting (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38558&postcount=29) were posted by me on another thread about roughly the same thing.

Dreadful Scathe
25th-October-2004, 11:16 AM
Interesting topic. I'd like to see examples of these "forum altercations" Magic Hans mentions. His original post implies a forum filled with negative opinions and cynicism, but I've not noticed that as a recuring theme. Is that just me ? Does everyone else agree with the tone in Magic Hans posts and agree that we need to "encourage people to take themselves and others more lightly" on this forum? I can't see the problem!

Andy McGregor
25th-October-2004, 11:55 AM
Does everyone else agree with the tone in Magic Hans posts and agree that we need to "encourage people to take themselves and others more lightly" on this forum? I can't see the problem!

That's because you're just 7" tall and can only see knees :whistle:

Dreadful Scathe
25th-October-2004, 11:57 AM
That's because you're just 7" tall and can only see knees :whistle:
I guess I just can't see the truth for the knees ! :)

Gus
25th-October-2004, 12:49 PM
His original post implies a forum filled with negative opinions and cynicism, but I've not noticed that as a recuring theme. Is that just me ? Does everyone else agree with the tone in Magic Hans posts and agree that we need to "encourage people to take themselves and others more lightly" on this forum? I can't see the problem!There ARE spome real arguments .... I dont have a problem with that. If two parties have differing views then they should be able to state their case and show the gaps in their opponents proposition. However, the problems comes when things start getting personal. Not everybody on the forum is an angel .. some people know dark secrets about others and this 'off-forum' knowledge can lead to on-forum nastiness ... which is unfortunate.

Having said that, if I understand what Messr Hands is saying, is that evryone needs to take everything less seriously, then I strongly disagree. I like the Fourm best when real ideas and issues are debated and commented on. I like it least when it degenerates into meaningles twaddle ... even the best threads have been sabotaged by those who end up having a personal chit chat which would be better done over a phone. :angry: BAH HUMBUG (and ban Xmas etc. etc.)

Personal view of course :waycool:

ChrisA
25th-October-2004, 12:58 PM
Having said that, if I understand what Messr Hands is saying, is that evryone needs to take everything less seriously, then I strongly disagree. I like the Forum best when real ideas and issues are debated and commented on.
...... :yeah:

Couldn't agree more.

Chris

ChrisA
25th-October-2004, 01:01 PM
Not that it can be hard to read exactly what someone writes ('cos it can be),
Irony is not dead in Scotland, I see :rofl:

jivecat
25th-October-2004, 01:16 PM
.. some people know dark secrets about others ......

Oh no, now I'll have to start wondering what on earth they could be.



I like it least when it degenerates into meaningles twaddle ... even the best threads have been sabotaged by those who end up having a personal chit chat which would be better done over a phone. :angry:

Yes, drives me nuts too. I don't mind it when it is genuinely witty, and a few forumites have that LOL factor, :worthy: but mindless banter bores me silly to have to read it. Should be confined to consenting adults in private IMHO.


BAH HUMBUG (and ban Xmas etc. etc.)

Especially :yeah:

TheTramp
25th-October-2004, 01:18 PM
There ARE spome real arguments .... I dont have a problem with that. If two parties have differing views then they should be able to state their case and show the gaps in their opponents proposition. However, the problems comes when things start getting personal. Not everybody on the forum is an angel .. some people know dark secrets about others and this 'off-forum' knowledge can lead to on-forum nastiness ... which is unfortunate.
Yeah. I'd agree. The nastiness what we'd all (I think) like to avoid. Having said that, I don't see it as a real problem on this forum. It's friendly almost all of the time - and there hasn't been any real nastiness for some months now - and long may that continue. But debates and discussions about different views are great - and I don't classify those as arguments really. Not until it gets personal or nasty :clap:

Having said that, if I understand what Messr Hands is saying, is that evryone needs to take everything less seriously, then I strongly disagree. I like the Fourm best when real ideas and issues are debated and commented on.
:yeah: Well. Law of averages said that I had to agree with Gus sometime. Twice in one post seems a bit extreme though!! :tears:

I like it least when it degenerates into meaningles twaddle ... even the best threads have been sabotaged by those who end up having a personal chit chat which would be better done over a phone. :angry: BAH HUMBUG (and ban Xmas etc. etc.)

Personal view of course :waycool:
Trouble is those people who do that (and yes, that does include me occasionally) are using the forum in the way that they see it there for. (Normal service on the Trampy-Gus line as been resumed!! :whistle: )

Though, I do sometimes feel sorry for people who have to wade through many posts of one-liners back and for between two people, that are of no interest to the rest of the forum - especially if the people reading are on dial-up, or other slow connection. Waiting for a page to load, and seeing that it contains nothing but a personal conversation must be frustrating, and I hope that sort of thing doesn't drive people away from the forum. Maybe there should be an area for people to post meaningless one-line stuff, and for the moderators to cut and paste all such posts into it. Any suggestions for the name of such a forum should be addressed in a PM to Franck :rolleyes:

Trampy

Lynn
25th-October-2004, 01:38 PM
Waiting for a page to load, and seeing that it contains nothing but a personal conversation must be frustrating, and I hope that sort of thing doesn't drive people away from the forum. It depends on the nature of the thread too, if its a more 'serious' discussion then to see really flippant remarks or chit chat coming in can be annoying. :( But other threads you expect to see it and I don't mind so much. It can make for interesting and entertaining reading at times too! :wink:

Father Christmas
25th-October-2004, 01:43 PM
BAH HUMBUG (and ban Xmas etc. etc.)
Many have tried to ban Christmas; all have failed :clap:

And the name is Mr Christmas not Mr Xmas. How would you like to have your name shortened Mr Jfries? :mad:

If I used shortened names for everyone I might have trouble remembering where to deliver their presents :wink:

ChrisA
25th-October-2004, 01:47 PM
It depends on the nature of the thread too, if its a more 'serious' discussion then to see really flippant remarks or chit chat coming in can be annoying.
..... :yeah:

If the crap was systematically rooted out, though, even out of the more serious threads, a lot of the vibrancy and spontaneity of the forum would be lost.

As I said elsewhere, this place is like a pub, with lots of very pub-like conversations going on. They wax and wane, go through serious and flippant phases, and back again, often several times. Very like real life...

I'd much prefer it to stay that way than become more like a committee meeting, where everything has to be on-topic.

Chris

ChrisA
25th-October-2004, 01:48 PM
Many have tried to ban Chrismas; all have failed :clap:

And the name is Mr Chrismas not Mr Xmas. How would you like to have your name shortened Mr Jfries? :mad:

If I used shortened names for everyone I might have trouble remembering where to deliver their presents :wink:

Actually I think you'll find your name is Mr Christmas.

If remembering how to spell your own name is a problem, heaven help us in a couple of months time :tears:

Chris

Lynn
25th-October-2004, 02:22 PM
I'd much prefer it to stay that way than become more like a committee meeting, where everything has to be on-topic. Committee meetings? On topic? :rofl:
(Sorry, I'm on a lot of committees...fortunately don't have to chair any!)

Father Christmas
25th-October-2004, 03:26 PM
Actually I think you'll find your name is Mr Christmas.

If remembering how to spell your own name is a problem, heaven help us in a couple of months time :tears:

Chris

Those pesky elves and their practical jokes. If they're not hiding my 't' they're putting something in it :sick:

Minnie M
25th-October-2004, 04:03 PM
Did someone mention tea :cheers: Yes please, milk no sugar :whistle:

Lynn
25th-October-2004, 04:17 PM
Did someone mention tea :cheers: Yes please, milk no sugar :whistle: :yeah: Well if you've got the kettle on... :whistle:

stewart38
25th-October-2004, 04:36 PM
:yeah: Well if you've got the kettle on... :whistle:

Some comments have left me steaming.

Some may have been 'mis read' but a few and its a very few you read are just plain rude or OTT, a good example on there today (Im talking generally)

Dance Demon
25th-October-2004, 05:19 PM
Some comments have left me steaming.


Ah ...that'll be the intoxicating banter then....:wink: :whistle:

Lou
25th-October-2004, 05:55 PM
"I resemble [read resent] that opinion,

Actually, it's "I resemble that remark" and it's a famous line by The 3 Stooges.

However, I wish I never posted it now. It wasn't meant to start a flame war - and certainly shouldn't be used as an example for Magic Hans' theory that things should be taken more lightly. It's the opposite. After all, what is more light hearted than Larry, Curly & Mo? :rolleyes:

Forever a Sister Of Perpetual September,

L
-x-

Magic Hans
25th-October-2004, 07:15 PM
Actually, it's "I resemble that remark" and it's a famous line by The 3 Stooges.

However, I wish I never posted it now. It wasn't meant to start a flame war - and certainly shouldn't be used as an example for Magic Hans' theory that things should be taken more lightly. It's the opposite. After all, what is more light hearted than Larry, Curly & Mo? :rolleyes:

Forever a Sister Of Perpetual September,

L
-x-

:yeah:

Thanks for correctling me!! As it happens, use of that quote was fairly incidental, and simply one that I happen to like!!

Thanks for everyone comments and contribution :cheers:

I totally agree
that altercations really happen quite rarely, and that they are better off, ideally being sorted out in PM world; thus killing two birds with one stone.

And
that important issues are very valid and useful in the forum. Personally, I like to be sincere about topics, without being serious! totally figured out what the difference is!]

I truly appreciate controversy and provocation, especially if it stirs something in me, and totally welcome those who do. It helps me clarify my position on a topic. Clearly, (IMO) something that stirs in me, is my issue/problem, and not the stirrer (even though (s)he might be a spoon!)

Certainly there are people that I disagree with, in the same way that there are workshops that I won't do. Both of these are my choice, and certainly don't reflect on the other party.

In negotiation and mediation, I have learned to seperate the issues from the positions .... acknowledge the positions, and discuss/challenge/explore the issues. Hopefully I put this learning into practice .... errrr .... sometimes!

I agree that some people forget to think much before posting, and would appreciate it were they to consider all the onlookers/audience before "getting personal" with someone, whether they've known each other for years or not!
They are, inevitably, involved. Other, newer members, may not know the history.

[groundless opinion!]I feel that sarcasm doesn't seem to work wonderfully well on here, or certainly not between people who don't know each other, and can very easily be taken personally (a choice).

I'm not sure whether I like Neg repping. I wonder what purpose it serves, and how the advantages weigh against the disadvantages. Works great in ebay, but here? ..... not too sure. Would a PM be as/more effective? Ignoring someone is somewhat more disrespectful toward them, whilst respectful of those around.

I guess, although not common at all (in fact rare), I'd be sad if some (series of) post(s) caused someone to choose to disappear. Chances are (s)he would be unlikely to hold mild/uncontroversial opinions.

In any case .... thanks again folks, for your views, contributions an opinions!

Sincerely ... Ian

MartinHarper
26th-October-2004, 10:01 AM
I like it least when it degenerates into meaningless twaddle ... even the best threads have been sabotaged by those who end up having a personal chit chat which would be better done over a phone.

"twaddle" is an excellent word, and I shall have to use it in rep comments in the future. In return, Gus, may I heartilly recommend the "ignore this user" button? :)

Lory
26th-October-2004, 10:28 AM
"twaddle" is an excellent word, and I shall have to use it in rep comments in the future. In return, Gus, may I heartilly recommend the "ignore this user" button? :)
Testing! Are you ignoring me Martin? :D

Andy McGregor
26th-October-2004, 11:56 AM
Testing! Are you ignoring me Martin? :D

Be careful if you ever ignore Lory. Never turn your back on her and, whatever you do, don't bend over :sick:

Zebra Woman
26th-October-2004, 12:23 PM
Never turn your back on her and, whatever you do, don't bend over :sick:

:sick: :sick: :sick: Hey Andy. Do you know how long it has taken to get that picture out of my head??

Now it's back again !:eek: :eek: :eek:

Gordon J Pownall
26th-October-2004, 03:46 PM
:sick: :sick: :sick: Hey Andy. Do you know how long it has taken to get that picture out of my head??

Now it's back again !:eek: :eek: :eek:


Now you've reminded me - there's three months of therapy down the drain...!!! :sick: :drool:

Zebra Woman
26th-October-2004, 04:24 PM
Now you've reminded me - there's three months of therapy down the drain...!!! :sick: :drool:

:drool: ??????

Yes, I think you need a lot more therapy Gordy. :eek: Try and get out more.....

ZW x