Style versus Self Expression

[Pete]

I went on a style workshop last weekend, which started with the teachers making the point that style is a personal thing so don't try to look like other people (find your own style). However one of them later pointed out to me that I lift my feet a lot when I dance rather than gliding around smoothly.

My problem is that when I am enjoying myself my feet do lift more and my body generally moves more and I guess it doesn't look stylish. There is a girl I dance with occasionally who also moves her body a lot (a kind of shimmying thing) which looks, and feels, a bit odd but she clearly enjoys herself.

If you really let yourself go when dancing does style go out of the window? Are style and self expression mutually exclusive?

[MartinHarper]

Was the mention of your feet lifting a piece of style advice, or a piece of dancing advice? I can imagine a few dancing reasons for avoiding footwork that's too wild.

I figure it's an important step, when trying to develop style, to be aware of your current style. You may decide that excitable feet are your personal style, but better that that's an active decision, rather than a passive "it just happens" thing.

[Magic Hans]

...

If you really let yourself go when dancing does style go out of the window? Are style and self expression mutually exclusive?

Good God no!!! ... definitely not mutually exclusive in my humble and subjective opinion!

Hang on whilst I think this through ... I may contradict myself, just bear with me.

I have found that I have, at times, reached a plateau where I seem to be doing anything the same sorts of things.

I figure that at any one time, I have a number of moves in my repertoire, and each move has a number of different implementations (or styles).

Straight away, my self expression is limited to my repertiore. Once I have explored and expressed that repertiore to my utmost, I hit a glass ceiling.

To smash through that ceiling? .... expand or change repertiore, either through new moves, or different styles of existing moves.

Hope that makes sense!

[Pete]

Was the mention of your feet lifting a piece of style advice, or a piece of dancing advice? I can imagine a few dancing reasons for avoiding footwork that's too wild.

I figure it's an important step, when trying to develop style, to be aware of your current style. You may decide that excitable feet are your personal style, but better that that's an active decision, rather than a passive "it just happens" thing.


I *think* it was a piece of style advice.

Thanks for the tip on making an active decision rather than being blissfully unaware - that does make sense. I think 'style' is a bit of a charged issue for me - I caught sight of myself dancing in a mirror once and it was a bit of an omigawd moment. Might be best to forget style and just enjoy myself!

[ChrisA]

I caught sight of myself dancing in a mirror once and it was a bit of an omigawd moment. Might be best to forget style and just enjoy myself!
I think it all depends on what you want. There may be several reasons why you might want to look stylish - ranging from entering competitions to just being vain (not that I'd know anything about that :wink: :blush: ).

If you want to look good, video yourself dancing. There's no hiding from the results :tears: , as I discovered this year when I entered my first serious competition.

But if you're not interested in competitions, and/or otherwise aren't too bothered about what you look like, then that's fine - providing that:

a) you're sensitive to how it feels, not just for yourself but for the people you dance with (cos otherwise you may be yanking your partner about)

b) you're aware of the space you and your partner are taking up on the dance floor.

I was dancing last night, next to a guy who was obviously having great fun. So much so that he very energetically spun his partner right into me, and her sharp heel went right down the side of my shoe.

:tears: :tears: :angry: :angry:

So if you're having fun, that's the main thing - providing the fun you're having isn't at anyone's expense - either your partner's or that of others on the floor.

:cheers:

Chris

[Lynn]

I think it all depends on what you want. There may be several reasons why you might want to look stylish - ranging from entering competitions to just being vain (not that I'd know anything about that :wink: :blush: ). :yeah:
I've become more aware of my style (make that lack of style :tears: ) after entering a competition (still can't believe I did that though! :nice: ) I really want to improve my style - due lack of any local men even remotely interested in comps I won't be able to progress in that area so it must be vanity! :blush:

But - having fun is just as important - (in the comp I simply couldn't concentrate on all the things I was trying to remember, but I had fun!) So if you want to develop your style then focus on one thing at a time. Its great to watch others and get ideas from them but make sure its your own style you are developing, or else you won't enjoy dancing.

BTW I would rather dance with a guy who had an 'unusual' style but a big smile who was clearly enjoying himself, than one with amazing style but not looking too happy!

[ChrisA]

so it must be vanity! :blush:
Did I say there was anything wrong with vanity?? :devil: :D



BTW I would rather dance with a guy who had an 'unusual' style but a big smile who was clearly enjoying himself, than one with amazing style but not looking too happy!
...... :yeah:

IMHO there's nothing stylish about looking bored or miserable !!

Chris

PS ... and no more of this "lack of style" stuff from you, Lynn ... Andy has already explained why you can't get away with claiming to not be any good any more :flower:

[Pete]

So if you're having fun, that's the main thing - providing the fun you're having isn't at anyone's expense - either your partner's or that of others on the floor.


Thanks for that! I'm don't really flail around on the dance floor and I'm very wary of banging into other people so I hope I can keep the casualties to a minimum :blush:


:BTW I would rather dance with a guy who had an 'unusual' style but a big smile who was clearly enjoying himself, than one with amazing style but not looking too happy!

That is definitely reassuring. I guess at the back of my mind I had a fear that women wouldn't want to dance with me if I didn't look stylish. But I am very smiley!

:)

[Little Monkey]

BTW I would rather dance with a guy who had an 'unusual' style but a big smile who was clearly enjoying himself, than one with amazing style but not looking too happy!

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Dancing is about having fun, isn't it?? I didn't worry too much about style in the beginning, just trying not to hurt too many people by stepping on them, whacking my elbows into them when spinning etc...

Now I'm very aware of being.... Not very stylish... :tears:
Still can't shimmy to save my life.... :blush:
Trying to be a bit more aware of what I'm doing with my arms and feet now, how to move my body, working on my spins, etc. But still, dancing is still just for FUN!! :clap:

So there.

Monkey

[Yliander]

I went on a style workshop last weekend, which started with the teachers making the point that style is a personal thing so don't try to look like other people (find your own style). However one of them later pointed out to me that I lift my feet a lot when I dance rather than gliding around smoothly. to me this is more a technique thing than a style - lifting your feet a lot gives a more rock and look to your dancing rather than a MJ IMHO


.... but better that that's an active decision, rather than a passive "it just happens" thing. :yeah: if your style is breaking from dancing technique it should be a choice - rather than a passive this is what you do - it's the old adage "you need to know the rules before you can break them" in dance this equals "you need to be able to do the steps before you change them"

[Lynn]

But I am very smiley! :) :clap:


PS ... and no more of this "lack of style" stuff from you, Lynn ... OK, maybe I'm not as bad as I was :blush: and its nice to be improving, but I have become more aware of the things I need to work on :grin: Thinking about style is part of that process I suppose.

[Gus]

I went on a style workshop last weekend, which started with the teachers making the point that style is a personal thing so don't try to look like other people (find your own style). However one of them later pointed out to me that I lift my feet a lot when I dance rather than gliding around smoothly.Pete, think it was me (rather than Helen Z) who made the comment. I think (memory fading already) it was more a comment about cutting down on the amount of steps carried out during basic moves. Initialy, we try to teach dancers to keep the footwork as simple as possible during a move, pivoting rather than adding extra steps, and making steps back clear and simple rather adding a double step ... as these things can affect your timing and lead. Peversly, as we get more into more complex style, we add MORE footwork, e.g. rock-steps and kick-ball changes.

From, what I remember, there was nothing 'wrong' with your dancing, the comments were aimed at stabilising your footwork as a prelude to you incorporating some of the style points we tried to introduce during the day.

I hope the course was helpfull. :grin:

[bigdjiver]

BTW I would rather dance with a guy who had an 'unusual' style but a big smile who was clearly enjoying himself ...Where? Belfast? Damn! If I could swim ...

[Pete]

From, what I remember, there was nothing 'wrong' with your dancing, the comments were aimed at stabilising your footwork as a prelude to you incorporating some of the style points we tried to introduce during the day.

I hope the course was helpfull. :grin:

Thanks for the feedback Gus - I think you noticed my footwork at the start of the day then Helen picked it up again (specifically the foot lifting thing) later on.

I did enjoy the workshop and I appreciated the personal feedback. My problem is that I've done a few workshops now and really enjoyed them but I don't think I've worked at applying what I've learned :blush:

I think I'm beginning to realise that I'm quite a lazy dancer (hell, I'm quite a lazy person generally ;) ) so maybe I'm better of just dancing for fun than thinking too much about it. :D

[Gus]

,,,,,so maybe I'm better of just dancing for fun than thinking too much about it. :DHey ... no harm in that ... I think most people are in the 'dancing for fun category' ... though sometimes a little coaching can help make it even more fun.

[Daisy Chain]

:yeah:
Its great to watch others and get ideas from them but make sure its your own style you are developing, or else you won't enjoy dancing.


:yeah:

When I started dancing, I used to copy 1 or 2 of the Goddesses and after a while, I found that I didn't need to copy any more as I was well on the way to developing my own style. However, I needed someone to copy at the beginning to set the ball rolling.

Only drawback is I've never seen myself dance so I've no idea if I'm Natasha Kaplinksy or Dame Edna on the dance floor :eek:

Daisy

A Copycat Flower

[Lynn]

I was thinking about this today and for me at least, I think the things to learn are -
a) following (improving on that one :nice: )
b) control (spinning, balance, esp in dips etc) &
c) style (posture, what to do with arms, how I step etc).
I still have a lot to work on for b) so I suppose that's where I want to focus for the next while, and maybe the style will develop as I do that. I agree that watching other really good dancers can be a great place to get style ideas and then see what works for you.

[spindr]

However one of them later pointed out to me that I lift my feet a lot when I dance rather than gliding around smoothly.

My problem is that when I am enjoying myself my feet do lift more and my body generally moves more and I guess it doesn't look stylish.

I think there's a floor craft issue here as well, lifting your foot high off of the floor makes it easier to tread on other dancers.

Also, from a technique point of view, lifting your foot high will tend to tilt your hips which *may* rock your torso -- which may make spinning more difficult, etc. Plus, it may take more energy to dance like that.

I have a suspicion that dance trainers can sometimes "grab at the floor" if they touch -- which can encourage one to pick up one's feet higher to avoid this -- whereas a leather sole may touch the floor, but be more likely to slide.

SpinDr.

P.S. There's nothing wrong with picking your feet up deliberately -- it can be fun to do a stomp, or similar move -- provided you don't tread on anyone :)

[ChrisA]

I think there's a floor craft issue here as well, lifting your foot high off of the floor makes it easier to tread on other dancers.
[snip]
-- provided you don't tread on anyone :)
I don't get this.

You can't step on someone else unless they are under your foot.

What on earth are you doing lowering your foot, from whatever height, if there's someone else's body part underneath it???

:confused:

Chris

[ChrisA]

What on earth are you doing lowering your foot, from whatever height, if there's someone else's body part underneath it???

And while I'm on the subject, the next time I have to leap out of the way of some hapless lady's head that some muppet has lowered into the way of my foot, I'm probably gonna have to slap someone :angry:

[Magic Hans]

...
Also, from a technique point of view, lifting your foot high will tend to tilt your hips which *may* rock your torso -- which may make spinning more difficult, etc. Plus, it may take more energy to dance like that.


Agreed ... still ... could be a style thing!! ... it wouldn't look wonderful to (say) a rumba or some latin tracks or a smoother bluesy number.

Might look better to some jitter buggy style music!


...
P.S. There's nothing wrong with picking your feet up deliberately -- it can be fun to do a stomp, or similar move -- provided you don't tread on anyone :)

:yeah: :yeah:

I have a personal preference to latin style dancing (at the mo'! Apart from the occasional aggresive stamp! ... or should that be macho!). And so, have a strong tendency to slide my feet. ie they rarely leave the dance floor, and so cannot possibly tread on anything, stepping forwards or backwards, and whether it's appeared from nowhere or not!

I have, in the past, stepped on my own foot!! :really: .... which is, kind of ok, until I tried to step with the foot that was trodden on!!! :whistle: ... a move taken from the Lee Evans school of dance style! ... perhaps not to be recommended, without crash mats!


Style can just be so very, very varied. Vive la difference! [or is it 'le']

Take care .... Ian

[MartinHarper]

What on earth are you doing lowering your foot, from whatever height, if there's someone else's body part underneath it???

... because you didn't know/weren't looking.
... because you've already committed weight to the foot prior to lowering it.
... because said body part "appeared" very quickly - insufficient reaction time.

[Pete]

Hmm, lots of food for thought here! It sounds as though people are saying that stylish dancers don't just look better, they are actually nicer to dance with.

I wonder about this, since I've quite often danced with women who I guess wouldn't be classed as particularly stylish dancers but I have loved dancing with them - they just felt 'right'.

Are there 'essential' style points (eg, don't yank, don't pull lady off balance in spins) and 'optional' style points (eg, erm erm - I should have paid more attention in class :blush:, oh, I know: not giggling during a comb :innocent: ). How come some people don't look like 'dancers' but feel lovely to dance with?

[Gadget]

If you really let yourself go when dancing does style go out of the window? Are style and self expression mutually exclusive?
No; I think that style and self expression are two elements to your dancing:
Style is in your movements and precision - forming shapes & lines with your(/your partners) body and the movement between them.
Self Expression is choosing which moves and which shapes are put together to form the dance. The music frames the choice, and you execute it.

If you are unaware of how you are moving, what shapes you are forming, and how "uncontrolled" your dancing is, then your 'style' gets lost in the confusion and it all becomes a form of "self expression" with little "style" involved.

If you can develop more control and a more defined base into your dancing, then it gives you a chance to actually develop "style" away from the chaotic 'noise' of throwing yourself into the music. I think that the "lifting your feet" comment was more in line with this than any attempt to supress "style".

{My thread on Improving my dancing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3116&highlight=improving+dancing) covers a lot of my thoughts on this}

[Lynn]

Are there 'essential' style points (eg, don't yank, don't pull lady off balance in spins) and 'optional' style points (eg, erm erm - I should have paid more attention in class :blush:, oh, I know: not giggling during a comb :innocent: ). I had divided it into...


a) following
b) control
c) style ...though clearly for guys the a) would be 'leading'.

I think that what you are describing as 'essential' style points would fall under b) control - and yes they are important to get right and will affect how a dance feels.

I still think the one of the best 'style' points is a smile - and you've already that one sorted!

[Lory]

How come some people don't look like 'dancers' but feel lovely to dance with?Its probably because they're concentrating more on the connection between you and not on performing or how they may appear to the onlooker. They get intune with your rhythmn and are very responsive to your lead, they absorb themselves in the 'feeling' of the dance and don't worry too much about the style. ;)

[Pete]

If you are unaware of how you are moving, what shapes you are forming, and how "uncontrolled" your dancing is, then your 'style' gets lost in the confusion and it all becomes a form of "self expression" with little "style" involved.

If you can develop more control and a more defined base into your dancing, then it gives you a chance to actually develop "style" away from the chaotic 'noise' of throwing yourself into the music

You've obviously seen me dancing! ;)



I still think the one of the best 'style' points is a smile - and you've already that one sorted!
... but is it a *Stylish* smile? :D

It seems to be that getting better at this Ceroc lark is going to require EFFORT :tears: and APPLICATION :tears: on my part ...