Exciting new beginner moves!

[MartinHarper]

Ceroc Wythal taught us intermediates a funky new "beginner" move - the "slow back pass", which apparently is replacing the normal "back pass". It's different, and one I'll enjoy using in freestyle, I reckon. Apparently a Ceroc-wide thing. Anyone know any other moves that have been added or dropped recently?

[DavidY]

I've heard that the back-pass was being replaced, and little-em taught a potential replacement a few weeks back. How does this one go?

Personally I liked the back-pass as a beginners' move because it's a really simple one and easy to lead with the newest beginner, although it's not the most exciting move for intermediates.

The proposed replacement I saw relied on the leader stopping the follower from walking round, and also having weight on the correct feet in order to step from side to side. I found this hard to lead with people who hadn't seen the move before (maybe it's just me though :tears: ).

[MartinHarper]

It starts off like a "man spin", but with a R-R hold. Then, instead of catching the girl hand to hand as you face each other, you pretend to be some sort of wrestler and wrap your arm round the side of her arm and lock into her forearm/elbow. Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, release, and step back.

I also like the back pass, so I won't stop doing that. :)

[Gadget]

:confused:

[Lory]

I know I've got a stupid sense of humor but what sort of name is 'a slow back pass'? :what:

I mean, why didn't they just go the whole hog and call it the 'slow sneaky back pass' or the 'silent but deadly back pass? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MartinHarper]

Another new one: the "step across". Like man's spin, or shoulder slide, but raise the L-R arms into an arch and step underneath it.

One thing I noted: Ceroc style is to raise the handhold and step forward under it at normal height. JazzJive style is to keep the handhold closer to normal height and bend at the knees to slide under it. Regardless, what's wrong is bending at the waist to get under - which I end up doing if I don't think about it. Tut.

[spindr]

Regardless, what's wrong is bending at the waist to get under - which I end up doing if I don't think about it. Tut.

Hey, I just keep the hands at shoulder height, lean back and limbo :)

You can drop onto one knee instead.

My other current version is to bend double (touch the floor) and the lady's hand will end in the small of your back -- although there sometimes seems to be a degree of "inappropriate touching" if you do this version.

SpinDr.

[Stuart M]

Another new one: the "step across". Like man's spin, or shoulder slide, but raise the L-R arms into an arch and step underneath it.

:confused:

The step across has been taught in beginner's classes for as long as I can remember around here. Which is about 5 years. Excuse me, must go lie down - that last sentence made me feel old...

[Gadget]

Another new one: the "step across". Like man's spin, or shoulder slide, but raise the L-R arms into an arch and step underneath it.
that's not a new one - It's a very old one; "step across" is high hand, "shoulder slide" is at shoulder level, and "man spin" is at waist height - the three main levels that the hand should be (and the first "combo" I ever delibretly put together)

In the step across, I use my right hand, flat, thumb to floor to guide the lady's nearest hip (right) past me. It also means I can prevent her from tring to turn under a hand that's above me rather than her, and gives her warning of the move. (in addition to providing me with something to do with my off hand :whistle: )
It's an addition to what's taught from stage, but I find it helps lead the move and provides me with added options of where I could go next.


...what's wrong is bending at the waist to get under - which I end up doing if I don't think about it. Tut.
Because it looks un-intentional; a reaction to avoid hitting yourself in the face rather than an action of stapping. Same with any ducking move that you bend at the waist for - so much more stylish if you drop to one knee or similar while keeping yor body upright. :waycool:


The new beginner move I'm still unsure of using with beginners is the shoulder drop - it is one of the hardest to lead properly (including most intermediate moves) and actually requires the lady to follow properly: the move is done behind you with one hand - you can't give any additional hints or use the other hand.

[stewart38]

:confused:

The step across has been taught in beginner's classes for as long as I can remember around here. Which is about 5 years. Excuse me, must go lie down - that last sentence made me feel old...

Its was being taught 10yrs ago any advance

[Simon r]

Its was being taught 10yrs ago any advance
Actually it is a variation of the old step across and the new described step across holds for an extra 4 beats before the finish.
i think you will find the original was being taught in ther 40,s so that might just be past both of your memories...

[Jive Brummie]

Actually it is a variation of the old step across and the new described step across holds for an extra 4 beats before the finish.
i think you will find the original was being taught in ther 40,s so that might just be past both of your memories...


:rofl:

[DavidY]

The new beginner move I'm still unsure of using with beginners is the shoulder drop - it is one of the hardest to lead properly (including most intermediate moves) and actually requires the lady to follow properly: the move is done behind you with one hand - you can't give any additional hints or use the other hand.I find the tricky bit in leading the shoulder drop is making sure you end up close enough to your partner after you've both turned. The leading-behind-your-back thing usually works OK for me - I lead the variant where you step to the side (opposite ways) and catch at your left hand side to return the follower in front.

I do like the Shoulder Drop as a beginners' move because you can use it to hit a musical break. If you time it so that after the leader turns and latches the follower's hand on the shoulder, you stop in time with the break, it can be quite effective.

This means you can introduce beginners to musicality with a move they learnt in the beginners' class, and it's a safe stop (you're both standing upright, not in a lean or seducer or whatever).

[MartinHarper]

Perhaps I should clarify - I meant the step across was new as in it was new as a move in the beginner's routines, rather than being new in an absolute sense.

[Whitebeard]

Perhaps I should clarify - I meant the step across was new as in it was new as a move in the beginner's routines, rather than being new in an absolute sense.

What's possibly happened is that although it doesn't appear on the list of beginner's moves, as posted on the Worcester Ceroc site**, it may well have been reinstated as such more recently.

Certainly I learned it as a beginner move last year and like Gadget my first combination of moves was the step across, shoulder slide, and man turn. And as a result I'd developed travelling returns before I'd actually been taught this variation. Quite exhillerating to faster music.

** Why isn't this information on the parent site ??

[Gadget]

I find the tricky bit in leading the shoulder drop is making sure you end up close enough to your partner after you've both turned.
You probably start turning too soon.

The leading-behind-your-back thing usually works OK for me - I lead the variant where you step to the side (opposite ways) and catch at your left hand side to return the follower in front.
I have found that leaning (or stepping/lunging) in the opposite direction from your out-streached arm, (so that the motion is half and half) allows a full straight arm without the lady having to move for miles {I've got long arms :wink:}
The 'normal' variation goes from here back to the "hand on shoulder" position, then step forward to back-catch in a 'one-handed-almost-cattapult' lean, then pull down and through as you step back to make the lady travel forward on her return, gentle push and step back in-line. 7 counts {I think?}.
If you replace the 'back-catch and lean' with a 'side catch and traveling turn' you are forcing the lady to travel in a (fairly large) diagonal while turning; most other moves that travel while turning are on the x or y axis, encouraging a more controlled movement and easier directional sense for the lady.
Instead of ending with a traveling return, why not turn 90º to face and step in to a first move ballroom hold?

I do like the Shoulder Drop as a beginners' move because you can use it to hit a musical break.~snip~This means you can introduce beginners to musicality with a move they learnt in the beginners' class, and it's a safe stop (you're both standing upright, not in a lean or seducer or whatever)
You can use any move to hit a musical break: simplest it to just 'freeze' on a count, then keep the lady in that position while you move/turn to face untill the song resumes. No leans, seducers, dips or poses required (well, perhaps some posing :rolleyes::)) and it is just as/even more effective than the other stuff that relys on having an intermediate dancer at the end of your arm.

[stewart38]

Perhaps I should clarify - I meant the step across was new as in it was new as a move in the beginner's routines, rather than being new in an absolute sense.


The step across as is now wants taught as is then as a beginners move in guildford 10yrs ago same number of beats

I thank you

[tsh]

Now that I've seen the new slow back-pass in a class, I can say that I won't be bothering to learn it. It never worked for me in the class, so I can't see it working in freestyle.

The problem seemed to be that it was never really very clear when the step across part stopped and the 'stand there looking bored' bit starts/ends.

Sean

[Jayne]

The step across as is now wants taught as is then as a beginners move in guildford 10yrs ago same number of beats

I thank you
Does this make sense to anyone?

J :what:

[Graham]

Not really, no. Although partly that's because I'm now somewhat confused by what people are meaning by the "new" step-across.

[Stuart M]

The 'slow back pass' was taught last Tuesday at JJ's, Graham. I can't say my life script was enabled by it...

It included the change to the slow comb which was introduced a couple of weeks back - namely, using the hand on the lady's arm as the signal to continue/end the move. I didn't really have much opinion on that with the comb, other than it means another beginner's move involves hands staying above waist level longer.

However, I can't help but feel there's an issue with doing this in the back-pass. Am I alone in wondering whether a perv opportunity has been created here, where none existed previously? Consider - man has his back to the lady and has to put his hand somewhere near her elbow as he turns round? Erm, hellooo ?

[Graham]

The 'slow back pass' was taught last Tuesday at JJ's, Graham. I can't say my life script was enabled by it...

It included the change to the slow comb which was introduced a couple of weeks back - namely, using the hand on the lady's arm as the signal to continue/end the move. I didn't really have much opinion on that with the comb, other than it means another beginner's move involves hands staying above waist level longer.

However, I can't help but feel there's an issue with doing this in the back-pass. Am I alone in wondering whether a perv opportunity has been created here, where none existed previously? Consider - man has his back to the lady and has to put his hand somewhere near her elbow as he turns round? Erm, hellooo ?
Yes, I'm aware of (and unimpressed by) the slow back pass and the new slow comb - what I wasn't aware of was a modification to the step-across, which someone hinted there had been.

[Stuart M]

Yes, I'm aware of (and unimpressed by) the slow back pass and the new slow comb - what I wasn't aware of was a modification to the step-across, which someone hinted there had been.
Sorry Graham. I really should read things...likewise I've yet to see any changed step-across, should it exist. My breath isn't baited, however :what:

[CJ]

Am I alone in wondering whether a perv opportunity has been created here, where none existed previously? Consider - man has his back to the lady and has to put his hand somewhere near her elbow as he turns round? Erm, hellooo ?

Stuart:

ar$e
elbow
ar$e
elbow
they are NOT the same. Get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[drathzel]

The 'slow back pass' was taught last Tuesday at JJ's, Graham. I can't say my life script was enabled by it...

It included the change to the slow comb which was introduced a couple of weeks back - namely, using the hand on the lady's arm as the signal to continue/end the move. I didn't really have much opinion on that with the comb, other than it means another beginner's move involves hands staying above waist level longer.



I have never seen this move done before although i am a relative beginner. I found this move extremely uncomfortable (i was dancing as a man) as did the ladies i was dancing with! I found it very dull and pointless! Lets ditch it and get some funkier, yet easy, moves in instead

:hug:

[Graham]

I found this move extremely uncomfortable (i was dancing as a man) as did the ladies i was dancing with! I found it very dull and pointless! Lets ditch it and get some funkier, yet easy, moves in instead
:yeah: Hear, hear.

[Graham]

However, I can't help but feel there's an issue with doing this in the back-pass. Am I alone in wondering whether a perv opportunity has been created here, where none existed previously? Consider - man has his back to the lady and has to put his hand somewhere near her elbow as he turns round? Erm, hellooo ?
I shouldn't think you're alone, Stuart - I expect the other pervs thought of it too :na: :wink:

[Stuart M]

Stuart:

Get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
I've been trying CJ, honestly I have. But after that dance in Perth, I've lost what little sense of reality I had...

[John S]

I found it very dull and pointless! Lets ditch it and get some funkier, yet easy, moves in instead :hug:
There does seem to be quite a bit of negative feeling (which I share) about some of the recent changes to the beginner syllabus. I don't think all of it is due to the "It's Not Ceroc As We Know It, Jim" type of thinking, but it's hard to assess how representative it is of feelings generally - maybe for a lot of Forum users it doesn't matter much because they've gone way past the beginner class stage and won't ever need to use the new moves?

It would be interesting though to find out views - I feel a poll coming on, so that Ceroc HQ could get some feedback (if they want it!). I'm not sure if I can remember all the changes (some of which I think are good) so before making up the poll, let me know what anyone wants to see included:
EG:
- Warm Up
- Slow Comb
- Slow Back Pass
- Shoulder Drop
- Any other changes?

[Franck]

It would be interesting though to find out views - I feel a poll coming on, so that Ceroc HQ could get some feedback (if they want it!). I'm not sure if I can remember all the changes (some of which I think are good) so before making up the poll, let me know what anyone wants to see included:
EG:
- Warm Up
- Slow Comb
- Slow Back Pass
- Shoulder Drop
- Any other changes?I agree feedback from as many people as possible is exactly what we need.

For what it's worth, my view on the changes is that they are a good thing. First of all, none of the changes were made in isolation, and the balance of moves (right / left hand, spin / turns, footwork, etc...) was carefully considered.
One of the main changes you forgot to mention is that all the Beginners classes are now rotated over 12 weeks on a national basis, I believe this will have the most radical and profound impact overall especially when other features (web / DVD / etc...) come live!

Individual moves are being tested in a huge scale, at all the Ceroc classes and feedback is received from all concerned, but especially from the teachers and current Beginners.

Re. the Ceroc essentials Warm-up, I love the concept, though so far haven't introduced it to my classes. Many teachers are working on different variations as we speak, and the next Teachers' Conference will allow us to share best practise. In essence though, the idea of a simple 'warm-up' / get your feet moving and listen to the music early is brilliant.

As far as the individual moves are concerned, well, I like the new (hand on arm) Comb and sometimes do it in Freestyle. I can see the point behind it, and if teaching a Comb in the Intermediate class or at a workshop, I would introduce alternatives.
The Shoulder drop started off too hard, but was simplified, and I must admit to really liking it now. It really teaches the men to lead 'travelling' better and introduces more simple footwork.
The Backpass (like the previous 2) will take a bit of getting used to for existing dancers. Once I 'got' the move I started dancing it more, and I'll be watching over the next few weeks how my beginners cope with it before reporting to Ceroc HQ! :nice:

To sum up, I believe change was well overdue and why there have been some teething problems, the end result should make a huge difference.

[drathzel]

There does seem to be quite a bit of negative feeling (which I share) about some of the recent changes to the beginner syllabus. I don't think all of it is due to the "It's Not Ceroc As We Know It, Jim" type of thinking, but it's hard to assess how representative it is of feelings generally - maybe for a lot of Forum users it doesn't matter much because they've gone way past the beginner class stage and won't ever need to use the new moves?

It would be interesting though to find out views - I feel a poll coming on, so that Ceroc HQ could get some feedback (if they want it!). I'm not sure if I can remember all the changes (some of which I think are good) so before making up the poll, let me know what anyone wants to see included:
EG:
- Warm Up
- Slow Comb
- Slow Back Pass
- Shoulder Drop
- Any other changes?


I'm still a beginner but i feel that the "new" slow comb is a lot more intimidating and the "new" back pass is just bliming stupid! Sorry but as i have danced both male and female to these move i feel more intimadated by the i'm trying not to be pervy/perv on you, vibe that it gives and its not comfortable. One of the first 4 moves i learned was the slow comb and i didn't find it odd or uncomfortable at all!!

What is a warm up? (see still a beginner)

:hug:

[Whitebeard]

Re. the Ceroc essentials Warm-up, I love the concept .....
Whatever some of the more experienced may feel, I entirely agree that this is great for beginners, though I would see it having value introduced more as a 'Getting into the Groove' session. A good opportunity, too, to very simply get beginners used to the idea and feel of tension and compression. Improvers and the experienced can be really helpful in this line-up.




I like the new (hand on arm) Comb .....
I've missed the 'hand on arm bit', but this move does introduce 'wiggles' which a lot of beginners (including me) have difficulty executing and co-ordinating. These are a very useful 'component' which can be inserted at many points during freestyle ..... but they do need to flow smoothly and naturally. I feel there is a good case for introducing a basic 'wiggle' as part of the 'Warm Up' (Getting into the Groove).

[tsh]

The warm-up seems pretty essential, to allow beginners to start thinking about moving in time to the music, standing close to a partner, and leading/following a step back. The in/out motion seems to be what most beginners I dance with lack - and that makes them harder to lead.

One drawback of the way the warm-up is taught is that most ladies now drag my arm wildly from side to side, lead the semi-circle, and carry on leading. I don't know if I'm more aware of it or if it's getting worse, but it's a bad place to start from. I think there needs to be more emphasis on explaining that follow means you need to wait for the lead to move first, then follow momentatily after...

Sean

[ToeTrampler]

What is a warm up? (see still a beginner)

:hug:

Just think of the dance scene in "Antz" and you won't be too far off :D

[drathzel]

Just think of the dance scene in "Antz" and you won't be too far off :D

Titter titter titter!!!

:rofl:

[drathzel]

The warm-up seems pretty essential, to allow beginners to start thinking about moving in time to the music, standing close to a partner, and leading/following a step back. The in/out motion seems to be what most beginners I dance with lack - and that makes them harder to lead.

One drawback of the way the warm-up is taught is that most ladies now drag my arm wildly from side to side, lead the semi-circle, and carry on leading. I don't know if I'm more aware of it or if it's getting worse, but it's a bad place to start from. I think there needs to be more emphasis on explaining that follow means you need to wait for the lead to move first, then follow momentatily after...

Sean


I have to point out that although i have never done a "warm up" i still tend to lead the side to side and i help with the semi circle. I think no matter whether there is a warm up or not if its in the ladies nature to be in control then this is going to happen. Before i danced i was in control of everything and it was very foreign for me to be led or controlled. I think the side to side and semi circle helping is a way of saying, hey i am still here, i can read the beat as well as you and i have my own opinion! *also see hi-jacking!!

What do the ladies think? :hug:

[tsh]

I think the side to side and semi circle helping is a way of saying, hey i am still here, i can read the beat as well as you and i have my own opinion! *also see hi-jacking!!

[/QUOTE]

I'll agree that it's nice to know that your partner is awake, and it helps to have some feedback on how she interprets the music. Equally, for beginners, being led here helps sometimes. Just leep it small, not as exagerated as the teacher might do, unless that suits the music!

The problem is that beginner ladies need to learn that they can't lead all the time. The 'rules' need to be explained better, as part of the class (rather than by me having to ask beginners if I can lead, and suggesting that intermediates should follow the lead if they can't get the move!)

Sean

[drathzel]

I'll agree that it's nice to know that your partner is awake, and it helps to have some feedback on how she interprets the music. Equally, for beginners, being led here helps sometimes. Just leep it small, not as exagerated as the teacher might do, unless that suits the music!

The problem is that beginner ladies need to learn that they can't lead all the time. The 'rules' need to be explained better, as part of the class (rather than by me having to ask beginners if I can lead, and suggesting that intermediates should follow the lead if they can't get the move!)

Sean

I completely agree with you Sean, ladies do need to learn to follow and need to concentrate on following no matter what level they are at and should not anticipate move (but thats another thread altogether). However some men are so laid back or complete opposite, so rough that the lady does need to exert some control or neither will learn during a class!

What bugs me the most is when a guy just pushes you away (and not gently either) rather than a semi circle or some other kind of signal! This is why i think a lot of women also semi circle, it gets the guy used to signalling.

I do have to say that i am only taking this from my experience as a woman (as my very very short experience as dancing as a man)! I am very open to any comments/criticism.

:hug:

[MartinHarper]

What bugs me the most is when a guy just pushes you away (and not gently either) rather than a semi circle or some other kind of signal! This is why i think a lot of women also semi circle, it gets the guy used to signalling.

I do have to say that i am only taking this from my experience as a woman (as my very very short experience as dancing as a man)! I am very open to any comments/criticism.

See To Draw or not to Draw the semi circle.... (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1880)

[ChrisA]

This is why i think a lot of women also semi circle, it gets the guy used to signalling.

I'm not sure it does, though, although it may be a popular misunderstanding of how guys learn to lead. Beginner guys have a lot of stuff to think about in the early days, and what tends to happen is that they simply cannot process the instruction, decide what to do, and do it, quickly enough.

And when it's done to a count, it's even worse of course. :sad:

If you crank the guys arm round in a semi-circle for him, it doesn't get him used to anything (except being led), and it certainly doesn't make him able to process information any quicker. In fact he's probably just about to do it (maybe a bit behind the teacher), and when you do it for him, it interrupts the thought/action process in his mind, and actually has the opposite effect on his learning.

As an example, I taught an improvers class last night, to a bunch of people who had been learning for about 5 weeks. Now the idea of the improvers classes isn't to teach moves as much as how to link them together, so we don't necessarily step through the moves in detail...

... and it was interesting to watch the way the time it took (a couple of seconds) for a couple of the guys to work out that a return is anticlockwise for the lady, and then lead it, was more than enough to make it completely impossible to dance the three moves we'd built up, in any kind of a rhythm.

And then when one of the ladies, also quite a new beginner, decided that she'd take control and turn the wrong way, the result was chaos. Needless to say, we backtracked a bit and reviewed the return part of the move :hug:.

Now arguably it was a bit early for a few of these people to have moved up to the improvers, but the lesson is clear:

- guys take a while before they can think and then do stuff quickly enough for even a slow count, and

- girls make it harder by leading the guys.

If you want to help your guy, tell him which way he should be doing it, and then let him lead it. Leading him sets up the wrong process in his mind, and IMHO make things worse.

Chris

PS, and just for the record, if a girl cranks my arm round in a semicircle for me during the class, it doesn't make it any more likely that I'll be gagging for a dance with her later :devil:

Interestingly enough, it's just as bad in intermediate classes as it is in the beginners - the habit is formed by then, obviously :tears:

[Lynn]

... the lesson is clear:
- guys take a while before they can think and then do stuff quickly enough... Just true in dancing....? :wink:


If you want to help your guy, tell him which way he should be doing it, and then let him lead it. ...a bit like life in general...? :rofl:

On a more serious note, great advice Chris! :clap:

[Graham]

It's taken me a while to get round to putting together my thoughts on this. In my opinion, the most important requirements of the beginner moves should be as follows:
They should be reasonably simple to teach and to learn
They should be easy to lead
They should not be too open to mistakes which cause either pain or inappropriate contact
They should collectively incorporate a good set of building blocks for learning more complicated moves later
In the past year, the adjustments have included the removal of the half-windmill and the wurlitzer, and the addition of the armjive-swizzle, the shoulder-drop, the modified slow comb, and the modified slow back-pass, plus the replacement of the ladyspin by the cerocspin.

Half-windmill I think removing this move was a good idea. It was difficult to lead, and whilst it had the benefit of making followers realise that not every move behind the man's back was a catapult, this was outweighed by the risk of causing pain, and can easily be introduced in the intermediate class anyway. Verdict: good change

Wurlitzer I think it's a shame this has been removed, as it was useful to be able to point out that a flat had didn't always mean a spin, and it was also useful to introduce the concept of a flick-spin. On the other hand, it was also hard to lead, and I kind of agree that it's more of an intermediate move than a beginner move. Verdict: neutral change

Armjive-swizzle I think this is a fairly difficult move to teach - most beginner followers have a great deal of difficulty understanding what they have to do, or actually performing it once they do. I'm not convinced that a swizzle is such an important building block that it needs to be included in the set, and I think most followers feel uncomfortable doing it. Verdict: slightly bad change

Shoulder-drop This is fairly challenging for both leader and follower, because it involves leading behind your back. On the other hand, this is a pretty useful building block, and it's fairly easy to teach and learn. Verdict: slightly good change

Slow comb In my opinion the new version is harder to lead than the old version. I heard that the reason for changing it was to remove a possibility of inappropriate contact, but conversely avoiding it removes the opportunity to teach people about what this type of contact should be like. Personally I would never choose to do the new version in freestyle, whereas I do use the old version, so I do find it a little awkward given that as a taxi dancer I'm supposed to be a paragon of correct technique. I also need to remember in classes to do the new version instead of what I would normally do! Verdict: slightly bad change

Slow back-pass Okay, this one really has no redeeming features whatever in my opinion. It is extremely difficult to lead: you start the follower moving, and then you have to stop her before she charges off into the distance. Because the critical point is when your arm is in a nelson position, and you don't have any eye-contact, it's very easy to lose contact with your partner at this stage. To avoid this you either need to use your left hand very early on the lady's arm, or grip on with your right hand. Either of these could cause discomfort for the follower, and the nelson hold could also cause pain for the leader. Furthermore, your left hand is groping for your partner's arm in the general vicinity of her chest. The only useful building block is putting yourself into a nelson position, but I don't think this is the easiest move which incorporates that, nor do I think it's an essential building block anyway. Verdict: very bad change

Cerocspin An easier move to teach and to lead than the ladyspin, and a more useful spin technique to learn as a building block. Verdict: very good change

Are there any other changes I've forgotten about, or any other opinions on the above?

[Yogi_Bear]

Is there a description anywhere of what these new or modified moves actually consist of? Or at least how they vary from the previous versions. I am especially intrigued by the notion of a 'Cerocspin'.
yb

[DavidB]

I am especially intrigued by the notion of a 'Cerocspin'.That is when the lady spins in a Trademarked way.

[Yogi_Bear]

Are these moves in fact exciting? Can anyone come up with (as mentioned in a previous post in this thread) any exciting, funky - but easy to learn - new beginner moves?
This reminds me of a recent Camber workshop where we were invited to devise intresting variations of MJ beginner moves...and demo them on stage.

[Yogi_Bear]

That is when the lady spins in a Trademarked way.
Of course - I should have guessed!

[Whitebeard]

Is there a description anywhere of what these new or modified moves actually consist of?
There are shorthand descriptions of the new set of beginner moves at:

http://www.cerockidderminster.co.uk/ceroc_beginners_moves.tpl

[Yogi_Bear]

There are shorthand descriptions of the new set of beginner moves at:

http://www.cerockidderminster.co.uk/ceroc_beginners_moves.tpl Thanks - I had a quick look, that seems like a useful site. So the 'Cerocspin" is still what used to be called a 'lady spin', but the leader usews two hands to spin the follower with rather than one.....sounds a bit easier for beginners to learn. But I'm still looking for funky and stylish new beginner moves....!

[DavidY]

~Lots of sensible comments snipped~

I agree with most of this. I'd also add the following:

Armjive-swizzle On balance I do like this one - for instance it makes teapot moves more accessible with beginners and it's not too bad to lead (although a bit tricky with new beginners). I would go for "slightly good"

Shoulder-drop I also like this - as I said somewhere else, IMO it's also good for basic musical interpretation as you can do an easy "stop" when you latch your hand to your shoulder.

Slow back-pass I find this really hard to lead. Unless someone knows the move, I find it really hard to stop a follower circling clockwise round me. I'm sure I could work hard and get it right, and also that it will become familiar to followers, but that still won't help beginners who've never seen it before.

I used to like the "old" backpass (which was another new move which only lasted for a few months earlier this year). It was a very simple, easy to lead move (I assume it was too simple and so it got dropped & replaced). You can lead the old backpass on a complete beginner who's never even seen it in a lesson and they can usually follow it. The same is definitely not true of the new one.


Are there any other changes I've forgotten about, or any other opinions on the above?The extra turn in the Arm jive - I quite like this although it's slightly harder to lead than the old one (ie if you don't concentrate and therefore miss your partner's elbow as she zooms past off to the right)

Also
* Having standardised routines - was never sure of the point of this and still not convinced it's a forward step
* Not demoing all four moves at the start of the lesson. This seems to vary in its application - I have seen it applied to both beginners and intermediate lessons - think this is a slightly bad change as I always thought it was useful to see what's in store before you start.
* Warm-up/ Ceroc essentials. I heard somewhere that the point of these was to get people used to shifting their weight and stepping back - in principle a good idea, but if this is true I'm not sure people pick this up. Most people see it as just a "warm-up" I believe.

[Whitebeard]

Are there any other changes I've forgotten about, or any other opinions on the above?


From my perspective as a beginner, but trying to advance, I would have difficulty attempting to improve upon your list of basic requirements for beginner moves. However I don't see quite eye to eye with you about some of the individual moves and the verdict you give for each.

Wurlitzer: I'm very sorry to see this go as it involved a very useful anti-clockwise spin (not keen on the various pushspins) in counterpoint to the clockwise spin of the lady/Ceroc spin and, I would have thought, easier to learn and get right than the catapult (also less demanding as regards floor-craft). Problem now is, has this beginner I'm now dancing with been coming long enough to know the move? Also, in my experience, it is not going to be taught in the intermediate class and even if I'm eventually proved wrong it will only at very long intervals. Verdict: bad change.

Armjive Swizzle: this is only one variation on what I always thought of as a pretty naff move. I feel the swizzle adds a more intruiging element although it may be a little more difficult to learn. I can see its value as a building block and, since both partners can arch their backs as they come face to face, I see it as less 'uncomfortable making' than the comb (unless it is the hammerlock that was in your mind - one lady with an injury specifically asked me not to put her in this position during class). There's also the opportunity to start making statements by pausing or playing with the timing. Verdict: quite a good change.

Slo Comb: (to adopt Cerocspeak) largely agree here but to me the real change is the introduction of 'wiggles' which few beginners can do with conviction or any sort of style. I don't do this move, but if I did it would be with both hands at the lady's waist to give a better chance of those wiggles co-ordinating. If the wiggles were taught in more detail they would be a useful building block and an encouragement to improvise. Verdict: not for me.

Slo back pass: the only comment I have is that to my recollection this hasn't been taught with the arm going into the hammerlock position. With the hands in a lower position the scope for embarrassing encounters is perhaps even greater. Agree with your verdict.

Ceroc spin: can't see that this is any easier to learn or execute, but it's useful as a variation (and, boy, do I need those!). For the lady both would seem to be unambiguous leads. Verdict: a useful addition.

The new Yo-yo: one you overlooked. I approve of this as it gives more for the man to do and provides the opportunity for some self expression as well as being a swap ends move with more travel. Verdict: a positive change.

Side to side shoulders: not sure whether this is new, but it gives plenty of scope for self expression, engagement with your partner and the development of individual style, as well as introducing the travelling return.

[bigdjiver]

Thanks - I had a quick look, that seems like a useful site. So the 'Cerocspin" is still what used to be called a 'lady spin', but the leader usews two hands to spin the follower with rather than one.....sounds a bit easier for beginners to learn. But I'm still looking for funky and stylish new beginner moves....! Add to the list - "A funky and stylish smile."

[Whitebeard]

But I'm still looking for funky and stylish new beginner moves....!
I think the originater of the thread had his/her tongue in his/her cheek.

If you find anything please let me know. Gotta be very easy mind you.

[Trish]

I mainly agree with Whitebeard on this. The half windmill is no loss - difficult for beginners, although I miss the wurlitzer, which is one of my favourite moves (both to lead and to follow). I tend to just teach it to ladies who don't know it once they feel like they're comfortable adding to their repertoire. I think my favourite addition is the shoulder drop, although as a taxi it was a bit strange to be in a situation where I didn't know any more than the beginners, having never done that move before! Might have been nice if they'd run through these things with us first really!

I do think it's a shame that they don't seem to teach these moves in the intermediate class though, I've only seen a wurlitzer taught once, and haven't seen the full windmill taught for years!

The other one that was missed from the list is the in and out - which in my opinion is boring and a complete waste of time. If anyone can tell me what the point of it is I'd be happy to be enlightened however!

[tsh]

Wurlitzer: I'm very sorry to see this go as it involved a very useful anti-clockwise spin (not keen on the various pushspins) in counterpoint to the clockwise spin of the lady/Ceroc spin and, I would have thought, easier to learn and get right than the catapult (also less demanding as regards floor-craft). Problem now is, has this beginner I'm now dancing with been coming long enough to know the move? Also, in my experience, it is not going to be taught in the intermediate class and even if I'm eventually proved wrong it will only at very long intervals. Verdict: bad change.


In my experience, this is a move which can be led without the beginner lady having been taught it. I've also learnt about 5 variations in the past couple of months, so it doesn't seem to have been dropped from the intermediate classes.

Sean

[bigdjiver]

...The other one that was missed from the list is the in and out - which in my opinion is boring and a complete waste of time. If anyone can tell me what the point of it is I'd be happy to be enlightened however! It is a great way for forcing eye contact for ladies who are dancing in their own world.

[Whitebeard]

The other one that was missed from the list is the in and out - which in my opinion is boring and a complete waste of time. If anyone can tell me what the point of it is I'd be happy to be enlightened however!
I overlooked this, which probably says a lot about its impact. At a local venue it forms part of the so-called warm up session where it does have value for real novices in learning to keep time and getting used to tension/compression (and you quickly identify unresponsive and overforceful ladies). T'other way round as well of course.

[Yogi_Bear]

I overlooked this, which probably says a lot about its impact. At a local venue it forms part of the so-called warm up session where it does have value for real novices in learning to keep time and getting used to tension/compression (and you quickly identify unresponsive and overforceful ladies). T'other way round as well of course.
Agree, and if I'm understanding this move correctly it's a very useful filler type move for the guys to do if they are having trouble thinking what to do next, or for a more experienced dancer waiting for the right moment to lead a particular move.
Having been taught the shoulder drop, it seems to me like a useful additin to the beginner moves repertoire, particularly if it is going to replace some of the tedious and 'pointless' ones. I have to agree about the half windmill. Quite difficult to execute correctly and easily confused with the catapault. Now idf only there were some really cool new moves......

[spindr]

In my experience, this is a move which can be led without the beginner lady having been taught it. I've also learnt about 5 variations in the past couple of months, so it doesn't seem to have been dropped from the intermediate classes.

Sean

Well, it's certainly easy to lead.

The problem for beginner followers is that they have to know not to "break the shoulder" -- I don't think there are any other beginners' moves that would teach this?

SpinDr.

[ChrisA]

Well, it's certainly easy to lead.

The problem for beginner followers is that they have to know not to "break the shoulder"
Not if the lead comes mainly from the guy's right hand they don't. All that pushing flat handed from the left is what causes their overrotation, and it isn't necessary.

Chris

[Whitebeard]

..... they have to know not to "break the shoulder"
Another technical term not known to me. I guess it means there needs to be a degree of tension/rigidity in the arm/shoulder to sense the leaders intention. As I progress, I'm beginning to find that the palm to palm is little more than a signal, the meerest hint, and I'm sure I've seen experienced dancers dispense with it altogether in freestyle. However, that hint from the left hand means that right hand lead can be that much more gentle and progressive.

[Gadget]

It's taken me a while to get round to putting together my thoughts on this. In my opinion, the most important requirements of the beginner moves should be as follows:
They should be reasonably simple to teach and to learn
They should be easy to lead
They should not be too open to mistakes which cause either pain or inappropriate contact
They should collectively incorporate a good set of building blocks for learning more complicated moves later
I agree with the last one, but the first three are all dependant on the teaching, the 'contortion' and the 'length' of the move:

A "move" is made up of several positions and the movement required to flow between them. The more the positions, the longer the move is to learn. The seperation of sequential positions can result in unusual contortions.

I think that you have to include in a "beginner" or "basic" set of moves some of the most common positions and some of the most common ways to move between them. In this, I think that the new changes to moves are all excelent {with exception of the 'slow comb' variation :devil:} in that they drop out some repeated positions and seldom used movements and introduce some different positions and movements that were normally used only in 'intermediate' routines.
This gives a much wider base of knowledge to build more complex moves on top of and gives the beginner student more of a 'leg up' into the intermediate level of class - less brain power should now be required to get the moves, so more can be devoted to technical, musical, leadable and stylish aspects of the dance.

As I said when the "warm-up" was introduced - there has to be complete teacher buy-in before the class will get any benifit from it. It is another of these "clapping" things that gets the class to bond and do something simple together. It emphisises the movement to the men. It has everyone on the same beat. It gives the teacher a chance to size-up the pupils infront of them.

The 'in-and-out' I have been trying to think on ways to disguise the dull tedious nature of - the best I have come up with so far is to do a coyish curtsey... anyone have any other suggestions? I do sometimes use it in freestyle as a buffer before drawing the hands up and over for a double-handed-traveling-return if I need to pad my moves to fit the music.

The main difference between a "ceroc spin" and a "lady spin" is that instead of cupping hand for a 'ball & socket' preperation, you block on the lady's wrist (hand transfer from left to right infront of you). I think that it is a good alteration (if a bit pompus naming it the "ceroc spin") and can save shoulders/knuckles/wrists of ladies.