Team Cabaret Competitions - what are the judges looking for?

[Jon L]

I have just got back from the Britroc 2004. Congratulations to the team who won which included Tas and Adam, it was an excellent routine which apparently has been taken from the Big Love show. Very entertaining and deserved winners. :clap: :clap:

The other teams cabaret was also good, but it had a very different emphasis in their routine.

Team cabarets are the hardest category in a modern jive competition. They take months of work, and lots of hard rehearsal. So having done them , I would never knock down or make rude comments about any team, cos I know how much hard work they are. :)

For those of you who don't know, I have done 2 team cabarets over 2002 and 2003.

Last year our team devised a wedding routine. In the ceroc champs when it was first introduced. I remember well on that day we got a massive roar probably one of the best of the day from the crowd they went beserk! :grin: yet the judges marked us down badly and we got the lowest mark, and we felt hard done by . However looking at tape of our routine I can see why as there were technical errors in timing - fatal in a team cabaret.

We reintroduced it for Britroc last year. The other team did a Moulin rogue routine, which we thought was good. We did, not expect to win (I can honestly say that). We shocked and stunned when at Britroc the decision went our way, though feeling very sorry for the other team, as it is so demoralising in that situation.

What I am interested in however is what are judges looking for in a team cabaret??? :confused:

Are they looking for: Lots of technical modern jive moves, use of floor space, working with each other, swapping partners etc. :confused:

or are they more interested in choregraphy and crowd entertainment??


Can anyone enlighten me?

[philsmove]

I hope I am not speaking out if turn as I did not go to Britroc

And I am not a completive dancer

But the rules for judging all categories seen very well explained on the Britroc web site http://www.britroc.com/Judging.pdf

I think it would be nice if other completions had such a comprehensive explanation how he judging should be done

In many disciplines there is a nationally agreed set of rules for completions this does not seem to be the case with MJ

[Jon L]

But the rules for judging all categories seen very well explained on the Britroc web site http://www.britroc.com/Judging.pdf

I think it would be nice if other completions had such a comprehensive explanation how he judging should be done



:yeah: Thanks and I agree with you on this especially at team cabaret. Ceroc and others would do well to explain what teams are trying to achieve.

I wish to point out that this post - is NOT in any way meant to be a criticism of Britroc judges - absolutely not It's just that having seen Mj events there does some seem to me variation in judging generally each year, specifically in Team Cabaret category. :cheers:

[cerocmetro]

This is what judges are looking for :whistle:

[Peter]

This is what judges are looking for :whistle:

:yeah:

[Heather]

Scottish Teams are what the judges are looking for !!! :wink:
:hug:
Heather,
XX

[Magic Hans]

...
We reintroduced it for Britroc last year. The other team did a Moulin rogue routine, which we thought was good. We did, not expect to win (I can honestly say that). We shocked and stunned when at Britroc the decision went our way, though feeling very sorry for the other team, as it is so demoralising in that situation.
...


I was one of those in the Moulin Rouge team, and, although I remember almost checking my non-existent hearing aid when the results came out, I believe there it some history ...

It wasn't our routine, it was one that Nicky Haslam had choreographed for an Australian team, and Graham LeClerc had subsequently bought the rights to perform in the UK, as I understand it.

And so, although we had permission to use the routine for non competing, and non profit making purposes, we were ostensibly requiring permission from Graham to perform at competition.

Britroc, being Graham's organisation had only one other team in the competition, and so was perfectly happy for the Moulin Rouge team to compete. But, I guess, it might have seemed politically incorrect if that rountine (bought by Graham) had won.

Beside's which, we all had a great time dancing it, and got a wonderful response from the audience. Far better, in my honest and exceedingly subjective (and possibly bigotted) opinion, than a set of judges acclamation.

I love the Scottish efforts though, they are so creative. Mouth to mouth was additionally so very light-hearted, and genuinely fun. It seems that so many of the other teams that I have seen have focussed on gyrating and thrusting hips .... it all gets so very samey after a while.

[Minnie M]

............Britroc, being Graham's organisation had only one other team in the competition, and so was perfectly happy for the Moulin Rouge team to compete. But, I guess, it might have seemed politically incorrect if that rountine (bought by Graham) had won.

Beside's which, we all had a great time dancing it, and got a wonderful response from the audience. Far better, in my honest and exceedingly subjective (and possibly bigotted) opinion, than a set of judges acclamation.


Can understand Graham attitude if you are using 'his' routine on 'his' territory - I have actually seen the ozzy version and it's great and can see it must be lots of fun to do.

Never been to either of the Britrocs (even though I only live 10 minutes away) so can't comment on performances - are you saying there was only TWO teams that entered :confused:

How can anyone use or comment on the results when they're are less than THREE entrants - It makes these sort of competitions a bit of a mockary :rolleyes:



............. Mouth to mouth was additionally so very light-hearted, and genuinely fun.......

Is this the same perforance that was in Blackpool - if so loved it :worthy: :clap: :flower:

[Gus]

Daft question ... who were the judges for this event? Why not formally approach them (or Graham) and ask them to give an outline of the thought process behind the judging decision. It doesnt have to go in to detail but it would made the need for speculation redundant and give everyone a defintive answer.

[Magic Hans]

Daft question ... who were the judges for this event? Why not formally approach them (or Graham) and ask them to give an outline of the thought process behind the judging decision. It doesnt have to go in to detail but it would made the need for speculation redundant and give everyone a defintive answer.


Were I won that particularly cared about winning, then yes, I would.

However, I've spent far too many years of my life trying to do (or be) how I thought others wanted. It's bl**dy hard work and usually doesn't anyway!

As someone once said "Your opinion of me is none of my business"!

[Divissima]

How can anyone use or comment on the results when they're are less than THREE entrants - It makes these sort of competitions a bit of a mockary :rolleyes: It has seemed to me - especially this year - that the spread of team entrants across the competitions has been really uneven (in terms of numbers, not quality). I can't remember the precise numbers, so am happy to be corrected, but from memory there were quite a few teams at Blackpool, fewer teams at the ceroc champs (although I know ceroc have a limit on the number of team entries), I didn't go to Bristol so I'm not sure how many teams there were. And then two teams at Britroc.

Having been in a team for the 2002 ceroc champs, I know how hard it is to get a group of people all to be available for rehearsals, even for one competition. We would have liked to reprise it at later competitions, but the logistics and time commitment defeated us.

I don't agree with Minnie that having fewer than three entrants makes a mockery of the category, but that's just my opinion. IMHO the two teams at Britroc were of an extremely high standard - certainly up there with Urban Metro and Mouth to Mouth. Although a larger number of entrants would be great (teams are always inventive, entertaining and fun to watch) I don't believe it follows that fewer entrants equates to a lower standard of competition.

:waycool:

[David Franklin]

I can't remember the precise numbers, so am happy to be corrected, but from memory there were quite a few teams at Blackpool, fewer teams at the ceroc champs (although I know ceroc have a limit on the number of team entries), I didn't go to Bristol so I'm not sure how many teams there were. And then two teams at Britroc.
If memory serves, there was only Urban Metro in the Bristol competition (actually Weston-Super-Mare).

I don't agree with Minnie that having fewer than three entrants makes a mockery of the category, but that's just my opinion. IMHO the two teams at Britroc were of an extremely high standard :yeah: I think from the competition point of view it's fine, especially when both teams are as good as they were.

What does seem a little silly is when there are very few entrants in a category and someone will proclaim "2nd place at XYZ" without letting on that in this case 2nd place was actually last place as well. (This isn't directed at the two Brighton teams, but I have seen cases in the past...)

Dave

[ChrisA]

What does seem a little silly is when there are very few entrants in a category and someone will proclaim "2nd place at XYZ" without letting on that in this case 2nd place was actually last place as well. (This isn't directed at the two Brighton teams, but I have seen cases in the past...)

..... :yeah:

And even sillier if there's only one team entering, and still proclaim on the web site...

"And now winners at Bristol LeRoc Championships!"

Naming no names, of course :rofl: :whistle:

Chris

[philsmove]

It would be cruel to effectively disqualify a team because not enough teams were competing against them

and Britroc rules do state there is a minimum number of entrants for each category

I am aware of completions (not Dance) with a limited number of entrants, were the judges have not declared a 2nd prize simply because the standard of those competing did not warrant it

I don’t think anyone is suggesting this are they

[Lou]

and still proclaim on the web site...

"And now winners at Bristol LeRoc Championships!"

Oi! I resemble that remark! :na:

Seriously, what would you have put otherwise? CM turned up and did a fantastic performance. It's not their fault that the other team that had entered withdrew at the last minute. They're winners in my book. :nice:

[Peter]

It's not their fault that the other team that had entered withdrew at the last minute.

I understand that THREE teams dropped out (why?) in the four weeks prior to Bristol/Weston super Mare competition, leaving just one team ...

... a great disappointment for the remaining team ...

[Gus]

Question ... aren't the names of either Cabaret or Spotlight conflicting? For a Cabaret I might be looking for big flash moves, lots of impact and, to be fair, sod the dancing ... I'm just after a presentation to entertain. Whereas, with Spotlight, the name suggests to me a demostration of team dancing showing musical inetrpretation, style, technique and sophisticated choreography. I suppose my question is what is the balance between DANCE and SHOW?

[ChrisA]

Oi! I resemble that remark! :na:

Seriously, what would you have put otherwise? CM turned up and did a fantastic performance. It's not their fault that the other team that had entered withdrew at the last minute. They're winners in my book. :nice:

Don't be so touchy !!!! :hug:

My personal opinion is that Urban Metro has been the best team cabaret out of all the competitions in the last year, so don't think I'm knocking either the team or the routine.

I just think it's a bit silly to claim a victory when effectively there was no competition.

I'm reminded of a joke, so old now that it's lost in the mists of memories of the cold war... goes something like this...

At a social function attended by high-standing political figures, the Russian ambassador challenged the American ambassador to a race, which the American ambassador won.

Pravda reported the result as follows:

"... in a race between ambassadors, the Russian ambassador came second. The American ambassador came last but one."

Chris

[LilyB]

I was one of the judges at last year's BritRoc competition and I can unequivocally confirm that the reason behind the decision of the Team Cabaret result was NOT that suggested by Magic Hans. I know because I was at the judges' meeting held to discuss that particular category (and one other), and our final decision was in fact a unanimous one, based on our interpretation of the rules and our expertise as judges.

I do not intend to expand on the above as judges' discussions should not become the subject of a public forum. However, I feel compelled to respond to the extremely unfair and totally inaccurate comments of Magic Hans regarding the jugding of the Team Cabaret competition at the 2003 BritRoc. I am not concerned about my reputation as a judge - and I will be happy to justify my decision to anyone, including Magic Hans, by way of PM - but I do wish to take this opportunity to refute any suggestion that Graham Leclerc (or Sarah Johnson for that matter) had any influence, directly or indirectly, on the judging process that day.

Lily Barker

[Gus]

However, I've spent far too many years of my life trying to do (or be) how I thought others wanted. It's bl**dy hard work and usually doesn't anyway!

As someone once said "Your opinion of me is none of my business"!Then why compete? :confused:

[DavidB]

Britroc, being Graham's organisation had only one other team in the competition, and so was perfectly happy for the Moulin Rouge team to compete. But, I guess, it might have seemed politically incorrect if that rountine (bought by Graham) had won.Interesting theory. Wrong, but interesting. We wouldn't even allow Graham into the judges room.

There were only 2 team cabarets at Britroc in 2003. Each judge ranked them first or second. The winner was the one with the majority of first places. It was as close as it could possible be.

The two routines were almost opposite extremes - one very much a Team, and the other a Cabaret. The 'Team' made far more use of group choreography - changing patterns, partners, etc. The Cabaret was more showy, with better individual presentation and dancing.

I can only speak about my view. It is ultimately a team competition. There are other divisions that reward presentation and individual dancing. The one big difference with a team is the ability to do something other than dancing as a fixed couple, and this accounts for a significant proportion of my marks.

Crowd appeal has little to do with it. It was a competition, not a performance at a ball.

David

[Harry]

I certainly dont think by only having two teams makes a mockery of this catergory.
After spending months putting a routine together and all the hard work and effort that goes into it ,I can honestly say the girls and I would,ve been happy to turn up and show it even it was just us !

It was an added bonus to perform against such a fantastic team as Taz and adams and know we up there with them missing out by 1 point .It was such a buzz and well worth all the hard work.ROLL ON BLACKPOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jenni x

[ElaineB]

To add to 'Harry's' comments, I was part of the 'Booty Ladies' team and we had been practising for this competition for over three months. We all worked extremely hard in that time (especially in the final three weeks!) and this is the first time that Bristol have put a team in.

Personally, I would have been very sorry if we had been cancelled due to a lack of other teams entering. All that effort and money would have gone to waste. Not sure what the answer is, to encourage more teams to the venues outside Hammersmith and Blackpool - any suggestions?? :flower:


Elaine

[Lou]

I just think it's a bit silly to claim a victory when effectively there was no competition.

However, the fact remains that the competition happened, Ceroc Metro entered, no one else did, so by default they got the prize. Which makes them winners. (Although we both agree at least on one point - which is that they're bloody good).

(As an aside, Chris, I would have appreciated more constructive ideas on what term we could have used instead of "winner", and less on the personal insults - like "silly", "touchy", etc. :flower: )

[philsmove]

Not sure what the answer is, to encourage more teams to the venues outside Hammersmith and Blackpool - any suggestions?? :flower:


Elaine
As already mentioned I am not a completive dancer, so the fist time it saw a team was Urban Metro at Weston Super Mare. It was awe-inspiring :worthy: :worthy:

I guess the big challenge with teams, is you need a relatively large number of advanced dancers, more than you might find at the average class

The past year In Bristol has seen a considerable improvement in cooperation between, classes and event organisers. This may have contributed, in a small way to the formation of the “Bristol Secret”

So to answer your question

More cooperation between classes and event organisers and may be some low-key local completions :flower:

[ChrisA]

However, the fact remains that the competition happened, Ceroc Metro entered, no one else did, so by default they got the prize. Which makes them winners. (Although we both agree at least on one point - which is that they're bloody good).

Yep, technically, if you enter a competition and all the other entrants pull out then you are the winner, and entitled to the prize money. I can't dispute that at all. The point is, they could have sat on the floor and done nothing for three minutes and still been the winner.

So claiming to be winner in a competition with one entry (even if there were others that pulled out for whatever reason) is pointless, since it says nothing whatsoever about the standard of what they did.

This is why I think it's silly to make enough of a deal of such a "victory" to publicise it on the web site as such. Those that were there know why Urban Metro "won", and those that weren't might be led to believe that UM won by being judged the best out of a number of entrants, which wasn't the case.

Now my view is that they could have competed against any of the teams I've seen this year and still won :worthy: , but that isn't the point.



and less on the personal insults - like "silly", "touchy", etc. :flower:

I'm sorry if you feel that "silly" is a personal insult in this case. It's not. Lots of people I respect do silly things from time to time. I do too, and I'm sure you do. I'm not insulting anyone AFAIK by expressing my opinion that something is silly - I'm aware that not everyone will share my opinion (they probably think I'm silly to have it - but I'm not insulted by that either).

And I also happen to think that it's being a little oversensitive to feel attacked by my calling it silly. By "touchy" I mean (IMHO) a little oversensitive, Ok? I'm touchy about some things, too, and from time to time people tell me that I shouldn't be. I'm sorry if I touched a nerve, I didn't mean to :flower:



(As an aside, Chris, I would have appreciated more constructive ideas on what term we could have used instead of "winner",
Well, that's a fair question. Personally I wouldn't be able to look my friends in the eye without embarrassment if I made a big deal out of "winning" a competition by being the only competitor.

So I probably either wouldn't mention it at all, or if I did, I'd acknowledge that it wasn't actually a competition (while pocketing the prize money, naturally :wink: ), but just say something about my performance if I felt it warranted it - which the CM team's certainly did.

But that's just me, and other people and organisations are a lot more "in your face" about self-publicising - and up to a point there's nothing wrong with that. You have to be noticed to get anywhere in this world, and Adam's approach certainly means that he's hard to ignore :D

Sometimes though, there's a fine line between promoting yourself and bull****ting, which can sometimes be counterproductive. I think that promoting the Bristol "victory" is very close to that line, maybe slightly over it. But that's JMHO, and I'm not insulting anyone :flower:

Chris

[Lou]

Chris, I'm finding it hard to post a reply to you that you won't misinterpret and accuse me of feeling "touchy" or "attacked", as it's now actually making me quite cross & ...errmmmm.... I hate to say it.... "touchy"! :rofl:

Can we just stick to the facts, and not project feelings onto other people that might not be quite accurate? :whistle:

[ChrisA]

Chris, I'm finding it hard to post a reply to you that you won't misinterpret and accuse me of feeling "touchy" or "attacked", as it's now actually making me quite cross & ...errmmmm.... I hate to say it.... "touchy"! :rofl:

Can we just stick to the facts, and not project feelings onto other people that might not be quite accurate? :whistle:

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what it is that's so contentious here. Let me attempt to summarise:

It's a discussion forum. People post their opinions. I posted an opinion about Ceroc Metro promoting their victory, which I think is silly. You seemed to resent my posting that in your initial response, which I thought was touchy. You then accused me of using personal insults. I attempted to clarify, and give reasons for my views, but it obviously just annoyed you some more.

Well I'm sorry about that.

Facts? CerocMetro won the Bristol team comp. But they didn't have to compete with anyone.

Everything else is just my opinion. Nothing to do with insults. I'm sorry if you felt insulted by what I said - it wasn't my intention. And I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion - you're entitled to yours. :flower:

Chris

[Lou]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what it is that's so contentious here. Let me attempt to summarise:

It's a discussion forum. People post their opinions. I posted an opinion about Ceroc Metro promoting their victory, which I think is silly.

Ahhh... this is where the misunderstanding happened! I read your post & thought you were criticising the competition website, which I created. So I asked you for feedback about what I should've written. (you see, I like feedback!!)

You thought I was upset, although, I'm not certain why, as my original post was meant to be lighthearted, and my reply wasn't "touchy" in my opinion!.

Then I replied, because you were attributing emotions to me that I wasn't feeling. Which, actually, is surprisingly annoying, and frustrating.

So - we don't have the same opinion on whether they should call themselves "Winners". That's OK by me, too. Sometimes I have a different opinion to other on here - but I like to discuss the subject in a calm factual manner. Sometimes my opinion will change, based on that discussion - and sometimes it doesn't. Its probably the same for most poeple. However, you don't need to explain what a discussion forum is - I think I've been here long enough to understand by now! :grin:

[ChrisA]

Ahhh... this is where the misunderstanding happened! I read your post & thought you were criticising the competition website, which I created. So I asked you for feedback about what I should've written. (you see, I like feedback!!)

Competition website??? No, not at all. If anything, I was criticising the home page at www.cerocmetro.com, with the big bold "And now winners at Bristol LeRoc Championships!"

... which struck me as silly for the reasons I hope I've made clear.



You thought I was upset, although, I'm not certain why, as my original post was meant to be lighthearted, and my reply wasn't "touchy" in my opinion!.

Well it was the:


Oi! I resemble that remark! :na:

... that struck me as touchy (and I assumed you were something to do with Ceroc Metro !! ) - but I thought I'd softened it a bit with the :hug:. Sorry if it seemed stronger than that.



So - we don't have the same opinion on whether they should call themselves "Winners". That's OK by me, too. Sometimes I have a different opinion to other on here - but I like to discuss the subject in a calm factual manner. Sometimes my opinion will change, based on that discussion - and sometimes it doesn't. Its probably the same for most poeple.

Yep, I wasn't doing anything other than that, as far as I knew.



However, you don't need to explain what a discussion forum is - I think I've been here long enough to understand by now! :grin:
I wasn't explaining it... I was just putting my posting an opinion (and what I thought was the reasonableness of doing so) in the context of it being a discussion forum.

Anyway, no hard feelings, I hope? I wasn't insulting anyone :flower:

Chris

[Lou]

Anyway, no hard feelings, I hope? I wasn't insulting anyone :flower:
None whatsoever, dearheart! :nice: Afterall, it's all come from a misunderstanding! :hug:

(but if you call me touchy again......... only joking! :na: )

[ChrisA]

(but if you call me touchy again......... only joking! :na: )

(wouldn't dream of it... but that comp website was crap :eek: :rofl: ......... only joking! :na: )

Actually, in all seriousness, if you mean http://www.leroc.net/leroc2000/results/index.htm, then I think it's great.

The pictures line up really well with the categories, unlike, for example, on the Britroc site, which makes it much easier to sort out what's what.

:clap: :cheers: :worthy: :flower: :flower:

Chris

[Dreadful Scathe]

Im suprised that the judges of Britroc 2003 arent more touchy after Magic Hans insult against their impartiality. It just seems to be Lou thats touchy ... :D :D

[Lou]

:na:
.......

[Minnie M]

...........What does seem a little silly is when there are very few entrants in a category and someone will proclaim "2nd place at XYZ" without letting on that in this case 2nd place was actually last place as well....

:yeah:
By saying 'mockery of the category' I didn't mean the entrants were not competant or had not worked hard and I am sure their performance was excellant- David has said (above quote) what I meant (thank you DF :hug: )

sorry :blush:

[Divissima]

:yeah:
By saying 'mockery of the category' I didn't mean the entrants were not competant or had not worked hard and I am sure their performance was excellant- David has said (above quote) what I meant (thank you DF :hug: )

sorry :blush:Sorry, Minnie. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth :blush: :hug: although I can see how it might look that way.

We could have a big bust-up about it, if you like :wink: :devil: There's too much love and reconciliation on this thread, if you ask me...

PS Are you coming to the Big Love Show?

[Jon L]

I can only speak about my view. It is ultimately a team competition. There are other divisions that reward presentation and individual dancing. The one big difference with a team is the ability to do something other than dancing as a fixed couple, and this accounts for a significant proportion of my marks.

Crowd appeal has little to do with it. It was a competition, not a performance at a ball.

David

This is what I was interested in when I started the thread. Another example I can give you was the ceroc 2002 championships, where Brittany's Moulin Rouge were runners up to the Scottish team. Watching those two routines, again they are very different in terms of emphasis. The moulin rouge here had individual chorerographed action going on, where the Scottish team (a gangster routine), had more team emphasis.

Now returning to Britroc 2004 , the decision "appeared" to be the other way round. - it's no criticism at all - I must make that very clear.

[Jon L]

To add to 'Harry's' comments, I was part of the 'Booty Ladies' team and we had been practising for this competition for over three months. We all worked extremely hard in that time (especially in the final three weeks!) and this is the first time that Bristol have put a team in.

Personally, I would have been very sorry if we had been cancelled due to a lack of other teams entering. All that effort and money would have gone to waste. Not sure what the answer is, to encourage more teams to the venues outside Hammersmith and Blackpool - any suggestions?? :flower:


Elaine

Watching the kind of stuff you were doing in your routine - I can believe it - I imagine you had all kinds of fun and games in rehearsals trying to get the timing right.

[Jon L]

Beside's which, we all had a great time dancing it, and got a wonderful response from the audience. Far better, in my honest and exceedingly subjective (and possibly bigotted) opinion, than a set of judges acclamation.



I think this is what you guys should remember at the end of the day, we liked your routine watching it from upstairs (and having watched the video since).
Team cabarets are hard work - I am never going to do one again, but I will enjoy watching them.

[Jon L]

Daft question ... who were the judges for this event? Why not formally approach them (or Graham) and ask them to give an outline of the thought process behind the judging decision. It doesnt have to go in to detail but it would made the need for speculation redundant and give everyone a defintive answer.

I think it's kind of unfair to ask individual judges their opinions on a specific cabaret.

What you can ask however is what will make a team get points, things to think about9 i.e. use of the floor space etc. It can be very helpful to choreographers who are thinking of putting something together.

[Jon L]

How can anyone use or comment on the results when they're are less than THREE entrants - It makes these sort of competitions a bit of a mockary :rolleyes:


Anyone who even attempts to be part of a team cabaret, puts the hard work in and goes and works through all the rehearsals deserves a big pat on the back. If no one else challenges them, they walk off unopposed champions no questions asked.

[ChrisA]

If no one else challenges them, they walk off unopposed champions no questions asked.
This is an excellent form of words, IMHO.

I reckon it would have been better if CerocMetro had used it in the context of their Bristol (WSM) appearance, rather than using the term "Winners".

Incidentally, how come they didn't enter Britroc? (I know there's an implicit :devil: in the question, but I am genuinely curious.)

Chris

[MartinHarper]

Claiming to be winner in a competition with one entry (even if there were others that pulled out for whatever reason) is pointless, since it says nothing whatsoever about the standard of what they did.

I think it says something - though obviously not as much as beating several other fantastic teams. It says that they entered the competition, and were willing to stand up and perform a group routine in front of an audience. Since few dancers like to make complete fools of themselves, especially in a competition environment, we can assume that they achieved at least a minimum level of competence. They also had to dance sufficiently well to avoid being disqualified.

"First in X" always means less without knowing something about X...

[ChrisA]

I think it says something - though obviously not as much as beating several other fantastic teams. It says that they entered the competition, and were willing to stand up and perform a group routine in front of an audience. Since few dancers like to make complete fools of themselves, especially in a competition environment, we can assume that they achieved at least a minimum level of competence. They also had to dance sufficiently well to avoid being disqualified.

"First in X" always means less without knowing something about X...

Sure. No disagreement here. I didn't say that it says nothing, I said that



it says nothing whatsoever about the standard of what they did.

But I suppose you're right. It implies they weren't disqualified! However, I have a sneaking suspicion that the wonderful chaps at CerocMetro were hoping that people would be a little more impressed by reading that they won in Bristol, than if it had said that they weren't disqualified :D

Chris

[Minnie M]

...........We could have a big bust-up about it, if you like :wink: :devil: There's too much love and reconciliation on this thread, if you ask me...

:yeah: :whistle:

seriously though - as you all know I have a tendancy of opening my mouth and putting my foot in it without thinking

I think it is good that you can (as much as possible) speak your mind, it makes for interesting reading :rolleyes:



.......Are you coming to the Big Love Show?

Isn't everyone :yeah:

Looking forward to it - see you there (on and off stage) :worthy:

[Peter]

This is an excellent form of words, IMHO. I reckon it would have been better if CerocMetro had used it in the context of their Bristol (WSM) appearance, rather than using the term "Winners". Incidentally, how come they didn't enter Britroc? (I know there's an implicit :devil: in the question, but I am genuinely curious.)Chris

"Team Winners" are the Leroc 2000 approved words (as used above the team photo here on the Leroc 2000 results webpage (http://www.leroc.net/leroc2000/results/index.htm)).

URBAN METRO did not enter Britroc as only 6 couples were available to rehearse & compete - 12 couples were present at the cerocchamps although the rules allowed only 10 couples to compete and 11 couples competed at WSM.

[LilyB]

Im suprised that the judges of Britroc 2003 arent more touchy after Magic Hans insult against their impartiality. It just seems to be Lou thats touchy ... :D :D

Me - touchy? Nah. :D

It was just that I didn't like the suggestion made by Magic Hans that Graham Leclerc had influenced the judges' decision. He did nothing of that sort. :angry:

In fact, he hardly spoke to us judges - except to take our orders for lunch... :whistle:

LilyB

[cerocmetro]

Gosh hasn't this thread changed direction.

Chris, did we win at Bristol?

Yes bloody right we won. The fact the battle took place before the competition was irrelevant. We understood there were 6 teams entering. Two didn't get their act together one pulled out after we won at Hammersmith and the other two shortly after, guess they saw our routine somewhere..

Our routine was awesome. To say we did not win could lead anyone being beaten up by 24 street looking type individuals. The team worked very very hard for 6 months and in these things once the routine is out, others know whether or not they have a chance. I guess it was felt they did not. Entering a team is nothing like entering as a couple and unless you have tried it at competition level, I would stay away from critising those who have. To take 20+ people a long way knowing you will probably lose is pointless. I guess that after Hammersmith other teams felt like that. (Can't blame them).

We did not enter enter Brighton as Peter said, Enough was enough. Too many people with too many commitments. Add to that it was 5 weeks before Mandy and I leave for NZ and considering the mamouth task that lies ahead of us, well Mandy, it would have been rediculous.

Personally I am not going near another team routine for a long time.

Back to what judges are looking for, That depends on what is allowed to enter. We had to have a high level of MJ in our routine. We would not enter in competitions that do not demand that. What is the point, you probably would not have a chance.

The judges look for whatever they look for in any dance, slickness, musicality, overall impression, but they are mostly swayed by crowd reaction

Adam

[Magic Hans]

Im suprised that the judges of Britroc 2003 arent more touchy after Magic Hans insult against their impartiality. It just seems to be Lou thats touchy ... :D :D

Funnily me too!!

I make absolutely no apology for being provocative. Provoking discussion and argument help (imo) to explore and clarify positions and issues

It's the way I am. I do, however, certainly reserve my right to be wrong,
and .... in the instance .... perfectly ignorant ..... of team competition.

I was, simply, expressing how I felt .... many of my fellow team members ... even more so.

I sympathise with John L about how confusing and difficult to compare competition results can sometimes be.
I sympathise with judges for having a bl**dy difficult job - certainly one that I don't think I'd ever want to do.

In retrospect, many of the problems that happened for that team, that event, were self inflicted .... due to a lack of communication when first 'borrowing' that routine.

Resulting in plenty of opportunity to perform and no opportunity to compete ... until Brighton.

Expectation was high! "We couldn't possibly lose!!" .... until we did!

Who do I (personally) blame? No-one! .... blame achieves nothing. If anyone, ourselves, as a team, for not having the creativity to create a routine for ourselves

I do, however, take full responsibility for being part of the team, and would fully recommend to anyone organising a team event to create their own choreography.

Sadly, I fear that year may have left a bitter taste for some of my team mates. I hope not. If it has .... I hope that time will heal.

[Magic Hans]

Anyone who even attempts to be part of a team cabaret, puts the hard work in and goes and works through all the rehearsals deserves a big pat on the back. If no one else challenges them, they walk off unopposed champions no questions asked.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I guess, if anything, perhaps it makes a mockery of the "awards" bit.

What sense does "Second Place" make when two compete? How about simply awarding it discretely?

What sense does "First Place" make for the only competitor? How about simply inviting them back to accept their "Performance" prize [or some other term of phraseology].

Looking long term, before getting big, most things have to start of small. How many teams will enter for Bristol in 2010? 8? 9? 10?

If so, then maybe 2003, 04 and 05 (although not ideal) had been worth it after all.

[Magic Hans]

Interesting theory. Wrong, but interesting. We wouldn't even allow Graham into the judges room.

There were only 2 team cabarets at Britroc in 2003. Each judge ranked them first or second. The winner was the one with the majority of first places. It was as close as it could possible be.

The two routines were almost opposite extremes - one very much a Team, and the other a Cabaret. The 'Team' made far more use of group choreography - changing patterns, partners, etc. The Cabaret was more showy, with better individual presentation and dancing.

I can only speak about my view. It is ultimately a team competition. There are other divisions that reward presentation and individual dancing. The one big difference with a team is the ability to do something other than dancing as a fixed couple, and this accounts for a significant proportion of my marks.

Crowd appeal has little to do with it. It was a competition, not a performance at a ball.

David


Thanks for the perspective/opinion ..... 'preciate it! :flower:

[Magic Hans]

Then why compete? :confused:

Why perform in a musical, play, pantomime .... and pay for the privilege?? [amateur dramatics]

For the buzz .... for the completion of building something that takes time and hard work ... sense of achievement ... for the adrenaline ... for the rush ... for the audience reaction. For the ego?? Maybe ... for some.

... can't speak for everyone .... that's just me!! :flower:

[ChrisA]

Yes bloody right we won. The fact the battle took place before the competition was irrelevant. We understood there were 6 teams entering. Two didn't get their act together one pulled out after we won at Hammersmith and the other two shortly after, guess they saw our routine somewhere..

Our routine was awesome. To say we did not win could lead anyone being beaten up by 24 street looking type individuals. The team worked very very hard for 6 months and in these things once the routine is out, others know whether or not they have a chance. I guess it was felt they did not. Entering a team is nothing like entering as a couple and unless you have tried it at competition level, I would stay away from critising those who have. To take 20+ people a long way knowing you will probably lose is pointless. I guess that after Hammersmith other teams felt like that. (Can't blame them).

All points taken, Adam - I'm certainly not attempting to take anything away from the quality of your team - as I've said several times now, I think your team would have won against any of the teams in any of this year's competitions (and I was at all of them except Scotland).

I guess we'll never know why the other teams pulled out. It's certainly hard to imagine anything better than yours... :flower:

But at the end of the day, I can't help seeing the competition as something that takes place in front of the judges. Once you start saying that the competition takes place anywhere else you're on very thin ice I think. And any victory won simply because the opposition didn't show up has to be hollower than if they did.

Champions? Certainly. The best? I would say so. Winners? Technically.

Chris

[kwakman]

I wouldnt have liked to have been a judge, as has been stated the routines were very different and hard to compare. We enjoyed watching The Booty Girls (well as much as we could given that we were going on straight afterwards and had butterflies), they were awesome! :worthy:

I'd like to publicly acknowledge Adam and Tas's efforts. We only had a day to get that routine together as the original love show scene was pure hip hop and 20% jive had to be added to it, along with the fact we'd lost a third of our original team so had to re-structure. All this meant it was a bit rushed, and cost Adam and Tas all their rehearsal time for the showcase. I'd also like to thank the team, as they were as nice a bunch of people as I've ever worked with. The only bad bits were Cathy C getting dropped on her head during practice (ouch, can still remember the thump) and me not being able to get my eye make-up off so Adam N. could take the p the next day! :grin:

The main reason for doing it was to promote the Big Love Show at Horsham on the 30th of this month. If you saw our routine and liked it, remember that was only 3 minutes of a 40-odd minute show, so be prepared to be entertained if you come. If you are one of the few still in need of a ticket, drop me a line as I have a very limited number left!

Cheers

Andy Stev (aka Shady Sadie)

[Will]

We did not enter enter Brighton as Peter said, Enough was enough. Too many people with too many commitments. Add to that it was 5 weeks before Mandy and I leave for NZ and considering the mamouth task that lies ahead of us, well Mandy, it would have been rediculous.
This is all a complete fabrication! The reason Urban Metro didn't enter Britroc was that they were banned due to one of their members being caught drug dealing!

[DavidB]

Q. Never mind what the judges are looking for. What are the team members looking for in the middle of a routine???

A. Scarves

[TheTramp]

Q. Never mind what the judges are looking for. What are the team members looking for in the middle of a routine???

A. Scarves
:yeah: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :worthy: :clap:

Trampy

[Will]

Q. Never mind what the judges are looking for. What are the team members looking for in the middle of a routine???

A. Scarves

Peter Ridsdale.

[Graham W]

To add to 'Harry's' comments, I was part of the 'Booty Ladies' team and we had been practising for this competition for over three months. We all worked extremely hard in that time (especially in the final three weeks!) and this is the first time that Bristol have put a team in.

Personally, I would have been very sorry if we had been cancelled due to a lack of other teams entering. All that effort and money would have gone to waste. Not sure what the answer is, to encourage more teams to the venues outside Hammersmith and Blackpool - any suggestions?? :flower:


Elaine

ey? thought there were loads of team cabs at Blackpool this year..
Ethels DeRoc team r in training with a foxtrot - tango routine with a touch of morris dancing thrown in..
&

CeRoc Metro r being a bit cheeky but aint a bit of goading the opposition part of the fun ...ra ra ra

[ElaineB]

[QUOTE=Graham W]ey? thought there were loads of team cabs at Blackpool this year..
Ethels DeRoc team r in training with a foxtrot - tango routine with a touch of morris dancing thrown in..


QUOTE]

I said, outside 'Hammersmith and Blackpool...........'

So, what is Ethel's team called then - the dream team?? Can't wait to see the Morris Dancing.........
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Elaine

[philsmove]

ey? thought there were loads of team cabs at Blackpool this year..
Ethels DeRoc team r in training with a foxtrot - tango routine with a touch of morris dancing thrown in..
&

CeRoc Metro r being a bit cheeky but aint a bit of goading the opposition part of the fun ...ra ra ra
Glad to here Ethel is alive an kicking

Since you got banned from the other place
News of Ethel has been sadly missing

[cerocmetro]

CeRoc Metro r being a bit cheeky but aint a bit of goading the opposition part of the fun ...ra ra ra


Sorry, what opposition :confused: :whistle:
Adam

[Magic Hans]

"Team Winners" are the Leroc 2000 approved words
...

"Approved words" .... hmmmm ..... sounds a little "politically correct" to me.

I seriously am not taking anything away from any team that enters competition, whether there is competition or not.

Simply said, I have a very strong leaning toward what is descriptive, and not what is "approved". It's my opinion, and certainly can never make anyone else's invalid. :flower:

However, wowwing the audience would always be my intention .... sounds like you did, and for that you have my respect!! :worthy:

Ian

[MartinHarper]

Not being disqualified may not seem like a massive accomplishment, but often rules say things like:

The dance must be a recognisable modern jive, with a clearly demonstrated lead and follow

I often have dances that do not quite attain that standard... :)

[Graham W]

Glad to here Ethel is alive an kicking

Since you got banned from the other place
News of Ethel has been sadly missing

..it was a ref to our Ethel that got me banned.. - what has John Gimber got against Batenberg cake...? ;-)
..she sends her regards. Any donations for maltsesers & lucozade can be put into this bank account number... mm maybe thats going 2 far!!

G

El - why mention Blackpool then - it was great 2 c so many teams there!
thanks 4 the dance last nite - enjoy Chipping Sodbury & dont upstage the host ;-)

[Robert Winter]

It wasn't our routine, it was one that Nicky Haslam had choreographed for an Australian team, and Graham LeClerc had subsequently bought the rights to perform in the UK, as I understand it.Correct. It was a routine which Nicky choreographed for our Moulin Rouge Ball.

Thinking Ceroc & Modern Jive Balls, if anyone hasn't got out to OZ for a CMJ ball then you really are missing out. The girls of the committee do an amazing job of putting together what I think is the most stellar Ceroc ball on the planet.

We have our date for next year booked, 29 October 2005, so start saving. :clap:

[Martin]

So, what is Ethel's team called then - the dream team??
Elaine

Sorry already tried to name a team "the dream team" - that only gets you second place at Ceroc London comps. :tears: :rofl: :rofl:



Correct. It was a routine which Nicky choreographed for our Moulin Rouge Ball.

Thinking Ceroc & Modern Jive Balls, if anyone hasn't got out to OZ for a CMJ ball then you really are missing out. The girls of the committee do an amazing job of putting together what I think is the most stellar Ceroc ball on the planet.

We have our date for next year booked, 29 October 2005, so start saving. :clap:

Seems like a shameless plug to me :kiss: :flower:
(worth saving for though :hug: )

Being part of the original Aussie "Moulin Rouge" crew, taught and corried by Nicky. It was strange to see it performed in the UK.

Might be a good starting point to use "old corrie" or should I say "someone else's routine", comes a time when it is a good learning experience to create your own. :grin: