PDA

View Full Version : Dancing Advice



Minnie M
10th-October-2004, 08:30 AM
I was dancing at Hammersmith last night with some dancers who had been dancing about a year or so. At the end of the track I said to them. "That's really good could we dance one more, but try to think about keeping your hands steady?...........

:angry:I HATE it when a lead I have never met before tells me how to follow - every leader has his own style and anyway YOU are the one who is leading therefore a follower should not have bouncy hands if the lead is not there :rolleyes:

IMO Advice on dancing should only be given
when asked
by your own dance instructor
from personal friends who are better dancers than yourself

Lynn
10th-October-2004, 09:58 AM
For me it depends on my level of dancing compared to the other person and the attitude with which the advice is given. There is only one person who has given me advice in a manner that annoyed me and made me unhappy about my dancing, and it wasn't in MJ. But I'm still a beginner (sorry, that's Trampy's line, Ok, still in the early learning stages...) and I value advice on my dancing as I find it helpful... as long as its given in the right circumstances and with the right attitude.

Bangers & Mash
10th-October-2004, 10:22 AM
:angry:I HATE it when a lead I have never met before tells me how to follow - every leader has his own style and anyway YOU are the one who is leading therefore a follower should not have bouncy hands if the lead is not there :rolleyes:

IMO Advice on dancing should only be given
when asked
by your own dance instructor
from personal friends who are better dancers than yourself

Sorry Minnie, but I have to disagree with you there.

I often get "unsolicited" feedback and am more than happy to receive it. Whether or not I do anything with that feedback is a different matter.

A person generally gives feedback for a number of reasons:

1 - To help you
2 - To improve their own dance experience with you
3 - To show off
4 - Because they can't dance and are blaming you for it

I always assume 1 or 2 in which case the feedback is welcome. If 3 then, if I think they are a great dancer, the feedback is again welcome. If 4, I just say thank you and totally ignore them.

:wink:
:D

Minnie M
10th-October-2004, 11:08 AM
Hmmmmmm........

I did say leads I have NEVER met before.

I still think it is impolite to comment on your partners dance in freestyle dancing if you have never met before.

Another gripe of mine, is a lead talking a move through to you before doing it - my philosophy is "If it ain't leadable - Don't lead it" - once again this refers to freestyle dancing, not during a class.

PS: Just had a luffffffly PM from a really good dancer :drool: - who said he sometime asks his partner to look at him and smile more :yeah: that is the kind of comment I think we would all like, it proves that your partner is, or wants to, enjoy the dance with YOU and would also help your dancing

Tiggerbabe
10th-October-2004, 11:21 AM
this refers to freestyle dancing, not during a class.

The one that gets to me is when, in the middle of a fab track, the guy leads something, you follow his lead but it doesn't end up where he thought it should, he then stops dancing to "teach" you the move that you obviously :rolleyes: don't know :whistle:

Lory
10th-October-2004, 11:26 AM
Another gripe of mine, is a lead talking a move through to you before doing it
I know one guy who gives a full running commentary, on how 'one' should be dancing. He shouts instructions, like 'slowly now', 'walk walk walk', 'little steps now', etc. :what:

I know it drives some of my friends crazy and some even avoid him but I have to be honest, I find it quite amusing :rofl: (though I doubt it's supposed to be amusing :wink: ) :D

Tiggerbabe
10th-October-2004, 11:31 AM
I know one guy who gives a full running commentary
Was he at the BFG Lory? I danced with one gentleman, I don't know him and it's the first time we've danced, who proceeded to tell me "And this is a dip" :wink: as he did a seducer and lowered me gently.
I'm not sure he was aware he was doing it and we did have a lovely dance :D

Lory
10th-October-2004, 11:50 AM
Was he at the BFG Lory?
No he wasn't but I seemed to remember a guy like that at the BFG. :na:

The guy I'm talking about is different, he get's really passionate and almost shouts commands :eek: but I forgot to mention he's also is full of praise if you've performed to his liking! :whistle: :rofl:

Minnie M
10th-October-2004, 11:54 AM
Thank you girls - was beginning to think I was the only one who feels irritated by "I know better than you" dancers :rolleyes:

I know my dancing has lots of room for improvement and, I have asked in the past and still do, ask my dancing mentors where I am going wrong, or if they have tips for me, and in return would only offer advice during a class or in the class freestyle after - never in a Social Freestyle.

IMHO Weekend socials are for enjoyment - whatever level of dancing you are at - enjoy and have fun, don't risk upsetting your partner with unrequested and sometimes unwanted help :cheers:

PS: Compliments are ALWAYS welcome :kiss: :hug: :clap:

Tiggerbabe
10th-October-2004, 12:12 PM
I think as Lynn says, Minnie, it's more about the manner in which the "advice/feedback" is given - but I agree, at a freestyle night just go, dance and have fun. If something doesn't work out as it was supposed to - do something else :hug: :D

Bangers & Mash
10th-October-2004, 12:20 PM
I think as Lynn says, Minnie, it's more about the manner in which the "advice/feedback" is given - but I agree, at a freestyle night just go, dance and have fun. If something doesn't work out as it was supposed to - do something else :hug: :D

Actually, I was dancing with a lot of people last night that I had never met before and there were numerous occassions where things went wrong.

This is mainly because, the girls where I usually dance have come to know my dance style and recognise the lead as given. However this can often mean that the lead becomes weak and so when I dance with complete strangers it doesn't work.

In every case I would always say, "Oops. Sorry. Bad lead." and in all but one case the girl wanted to try it again to see if we could get it right.

In each case, I improved my lead and we got it there.

In other cases, the girl has asked me if I know a certain move because it is "her favourite". Whenever this happens, I get an impromptu lesson on the dance floor and really enjoy it.

You can never have enough dance moves and if my partner likes that move then all the more reason to learn it.

I suppose feedback isn't really the word for this - more, teamwork.

:cheers:

Minnie M
10th-October-2004, 01:25 PM
I think as Lynn says, Minnie, it's more about the manner in which the "advice/feedback" is given......

:yeah: true, even when your pride is dented :tears:

Sal
10th-October-2004, 03:03 PM
:yeah: true, even when your pride is dented :tears:

I have been getting a lot of unsolicted advice recently. I am not sure how my dancing is doing after it, but my confidence is at an all time low.

MartinHarper
10th-October-2004, 03:48 PM
I HATE it when a lead I have never met before tells me how to follow [...] Anyway, YOU are the one who is leading therefore a follower should not have bouncy hands if the lead is not there.

Some women hand bounce by default, to varying degrees. Would you like to dance with a guy who allowed you so little freedom you don't even get a say in the level of hand bounce? Or with a guy who concentrated on suppressing hand bouncing to the exclusion of, say, floorcraft?

My father once told me: "don't accept responsibility without power". I'm happy to take some responsibility for suppressing my partner's flaws, if that's what she wants, provided that it comes with the power to give her unsolicited advice.

Minnie M
10th-October-2004, 05:05 PM
Some women hand bounce by default, to varying degrees.....

Hand bounce by default :confused: sounds like 'Back Leading' to me


Would you like to dance with a guy who allowed you so little freedom you don't even get a say...........

Freedom :confused: do you mean the "pushing and Shoving" style :eek:

IMHO
If the follower is NOT following, then she needs some help to do so, such as a "Lead & Follow" type workshop, or some help from her local dance teacher or taxi dancer

If the lead needs to force a move, he ain't doing it right or must realise the follower has the above problem and therefore, needs to be a little more patient

MartinHarper
10th-October-2004, 05:26 PM
Another gripe of mine, is a lead talking a move through to you before doing it - my philosophy is "If it ain't leadable - Don't lead it" - once again this refers to freestyle dancing, not during a class.

I can't learn to lead moves during a standard Ceroc-style class, because the women all stop following and take up line dancing (compare earlier gripe (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1978)). If I'm going to learn to lead, I'm going to have to do it in freestyle. That entails challenging myself to lead moves that I currently find unleadable. Where appropriate, it also entails using verbal leads, signals, talking to my partner, etc, until I can lead the move well enough to manage without.

baldrick
10th-October-2004, 05:47 PM
I can't learn to lead moves during a standard Ceroc-style class, because the women all stop following and take up line dancing (compare earlier gripe (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1978)). If I'm going to learn to lead, I'm going to have to do it in freestyle. That entails challenging myself to lead moves that I currently find unleadable. Where appropriate, it also entails using verbal leads, signals, talking to my partner, etc, until I can lead the move well enough to manage without.

I find this hugely variable, and why I like the rotation system. Some women wait and follow my (inept) lead. Others are clearly walking thought the move without me, and all sorts of steps inbetween. Leading the move after the class is no giveaway wether or not I can lead the new move 'cause its recognised and followed/back lead. Only at a different venue, or weeks later can I tell if I got it, by leading the move to a someone who didn't do the class, or has a worse memory than me.

Minnie M
10th-October-2004, 05:53 PM
I can't learn to lead moves during a standard Ceroc-style class......

I symphathise Martin, as I am often the lead in the class line-up and yes, a lot of ladies think they should back lead the move and not relax and let the lead LEAD them......... however, if you can't follow the class moves, for whatever reason, isn't that what the taxi dancers are there for :whistle:

BTW - Check out LilyB's post on the thread you mention (compare earlier gripe) - she is one of the best followers (if not the best) on our MJ scene

jivecat
10th-October-2004, 06:26 PM
The guy I'm talking about is different, he get's really passionate and almost shouts commands :eek: but I forgot to mention he's also is full of praise if you've performed to his liking! :whistle: :rofl:

With reference to another thread, Heaven only knows what this guy is like in bed! :what: :devil:

baldrick
10th-October-2004, 06:30 PM
With reference to another thread, Heaven only knows what this guy is like in bed! :what: :devil:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :clap: :clap:

jivecat
10th-October-2004, 06:34 PM
The one that gets to me is when, in the middle of a fab track, the guy leads something, you follow his lead but it doesn't end up where he thought it should, he then stops dancing to "teach" you the move that you obviously :rolleyes: don't know :whistle:

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Drives me totally nuts!

jivecat
10th-October-2004, 06:46 PM
I still think it is impolite to comment on your partners dance in freestyle dancing if you have never met before.

I agree. It's very easy to cause offence and probably a bit unfair to judge someone after one dance at a freestyle. It might be a little different if you're dancing with someone very inexperienced or much less experienced and your comments are quite clearly going to be seen as friendly and supportive.


Another gripe of mine, is a lead talking a move through to you before doing it - my philosophy is "If it ain't leadable - Don't lead it" - once again this refers to freestyle dancing, not during a class.



I think this links in with Sheena's complaint. I don't always object to being talked through a lead if it really helps either him or me to get the move, but if it seriously interrupts the flow of the dance I think that my partner should check with me that I'm happy on that occasion to spend the time doing some practice. And I certainly wouldn't be if that was my fave track. But I probably would be during the next one, especially if it was a c**p one that wasn't much use for proper dancing.

Lynn
10th-October-2004, 06:48 PM
PS: Compliments are ALWAYS welcome :kiss: :hug: :clap: :yeah: Did a tango class this afternoon and one of the dancers was giving me advice - as this was the third class and I just started today, I was happy for any helpful comments (sorry, I know this thread is really about comments in freestyle). When dancing with the guy again near the end of the class he commented on how I was getting it right, had applied what he had said and was dancing better as a result and seemed to be enjoying dancing with me. It does make you feel good!

Minnie M
10th-October-2004, 06:54 PM
With reference to another thread, Heaven only knows what this guy is like in bed! :what: :devil:

:rofl: Going to re-instate that one :rolleyes: - has always been a good conversation piece for us girlies :rofl: :rofl:

bigdjiver
10th-October-2004, 09:56 PM
I still think it is impolite to comment on your partners dance in freestyle dancing if you have never met before. As a leader I value criticism far more than I dislike it. I was at the Jook Jive blues workshop yesterday, this one led by Peter Phillips. I got a lot from that, but, and the justified criticism that I got from a couple of partners :tears: , will also improve me as a dancer.


Another gripe of mine, is a lead talking a move through to you before doing it - my philosophy is "If it ain't leadable - Don't lead it" - once again this refers to freestyle dancing, not during a class. Which brings me to an example of useful criticism. I try to ensure that every move I do is leadable to someone that has never done it before.

There are lots of partners that love some surprises, and little dance "jokes". I tried to strut my stuff with a very good and well experienced dancer that I had not danced with before. I was told that she liked to know what was expected of her before she did a move. :tears: That is a perfectly reasonable criticism, and I will work on fitting my style to partner.

spindr
10th-October-2004, 10:13 PM
In general I don't like verbal leads.

There are two occasions when I'll use one:
1). To ask the lady to stay on the spot when I do a half-nelson -- simply because when I'm turning (bent double) I don't want my head to collide with her hip (hurts me) or with anything softer (hurts her).
2). I haven't worked out a non-verbal way to lead a follower *not* to ronde -- if the floor's crowded, I may note this and suggest we both take small steps.

I would certainly never make any "helpful comments" -- I may think a few :) -- as I think that it's just rude :(

SpinDr.

DavidB
10th-October-2004, 11:45 PM
I rarely give unsolicited advice. Freestyles are for dancing. Classes and workshops are for the teacher to teach.

Be careful about soliciting advice as well. If you are that keen to learn, then ask the teacher for help. Why rely on 'advice' from someone who probably needs just as much help as you do? I've heard lots of 'advice' given. 80% of it makes me cringe.

Magic Hans
11th-October-2004, 12:08 AM
Strong Objection: :angry: :angry: I respond poorly to being told what to do! Especially in the arena of style.

"Try doing it this way", or "What might happen if you do that?" works far more effectively for me than "This is how you do it!", "No! Not like that! Like this!"

.... as previously mentioned, the manner of the feedback can affect its effectiveness.

Even more so for style: We all have our unique personality which ultimately reflects on the dance floor. I can only ever imitate some else badly. Some dance skills (say lindy), lend themselves to a certain type of style, which I can only discover for myself .... with time and practice! I totally resent someone else trying to impose their style on me!! .... not that I react badly, I simply take no notice! ... it's easier that way!

Minnie M
11th-October-2004, 12:28 AM
I rarely give unsolicited advice. Freestyles are for dancing. Classes and workshops are for the teacher to teach.

Be careful about soliciting advice as well. If you are that keen to learn, then ask the teacher for help. Why rely on 'advice' from someone who probably needs just as much help as you do? I've heard lots of 'advice' given. 80% of it makes me cringe.

:yeah:

exactly what I have been trying to say

Thank you David :kiss:

Lory
11th-October-2004, 12:42 AM
I have to say, I welcome advice, :nice: (styling. footwork, new moves or just how to make anything better) if it comes from a dancer who I regard as better or more experienced that me, in fact, I feel flattered that they've taken the time to bother with me. :flower:

What I do object to, is when someone who isn't that good IMO, leading me badly, then telling me where I'm going wrong. :tears:

Gadget
11th-October-2004, 12:48 AM
I have been getting a lot of unsolicted advice recently. I am not sure how my dancing is doing after it, but my confidence is at an all time low.
:flower: Please come allong on Tuesday - I have never failed to have an exquisite dance with you... well perhaps one or two; but the rest more than make up for it :D :devil: :waycool:

Lory
11th-October-2004, 01:02 AM
With reference to another thread, Heaven only knows what this guy is like in bed! :what: :devil:
OH noooo! I've just read this! :eek: How am I supposed to dance with this guy again, without having that question constantly running in my head! :rofl:

Too late, I'm having visions already! :tears: :rofl: Still at least he leave you in no doubt as to what he liked! :devil: :wink:

Gadget
11th-October-2004, 01:03 AM
Which brings me to an example of useful criticism. I try to ensure that every move I do is leadable to someone that has never done it before.:yeah: me too. More interesting is trying to work out how to lead moves that you initially think "cool - but impossable to lead in freestyle". Normally it involves a completley different way into it.

There are lots of partners that love some surprises, and little dance "jokes". I tried to strut my stuff with a very good and well experienced dancer that I had not danced with before. I was told that she liked to know what was expected of her before she did a move. :tears: That is a perfectly reasonable criticism, and I will work on fitting my style to partner.
Is it? Perhaps you should direct her to the "shouty man" MinnieM was going on about :devil: How much of a warning does she need? You're leading, she's following.
Yes; tailor your dancing to match your partner - but I think you have to be careful where and how much you comprimise.

I think that the above criticism may have been direced more towards giving a clearer lead into the "surprise" moves rather than dropping them completley; I know I have a problem with giving the ladies enough time to react to some "different" leads. But I am now aware of it and try to smooth the leads into them a bit- having a specific move beforehand that works well and gets the lady traveling in the right direction first.

MartinHarper
11th-October-2004, 01:38 AM
The trend on this thread does seem to be that (in general) guys welcome being given unsolicited feedback and (in general) girls don't. Odd, because the myth is that guys have fragile egos that would be crushed by honest feedback. :) More advanced guys appear to have learnt that most girls don't welcome unsolicited feedback... a lesson I've yet to absorb.

It's unfortunate that a lot of the questions guys have to ask to figure out how to improve can come across as criticism. For example, more defensive ladies interpret a question like "Why did you spin?" as an attack on their following skills. More helpful ladies just answer the question. Really helpful ladies will take a comment like "you should have spun" and answer the question hidden behind it.


If you are that keen to learn, then ask the teacher for help. Why rely on 'advice' from someone who probably needs just as much help as you do?

Where to start...

During classes, asking the teacher questions interrupts everyone else's learning. Outside classes, the teacher is normally very busy. Some questions are politically awkward to ask a teacher. Teachers only have their own perspective. Teachers haven't spent much time dancing with me. Poor teachers forget what it was like to be a poor dancer. I already have a good idea what the teacher thinks by listening to them in class. Teachers tend to be tactful. Teachers don't recommend their competitors. Teachers tend to oversimplify. Teachers tend to repeat the "party line".

*shrug* You did ask...

Northants Girly
11th-October-2004, 02:00 AM
:rofl: Going to re-instate that one :rolleyes: - has always been a good conversation piece for us girlies :rofl: :rofl:
Mmmm . . . wouldn't it be wonderful if us girlies could have a girls only thread? Franck??

DavidB
11th-October-2004, 04:10 AM
Teachers only have their own perspective. Teachers haven't spent much time dancing with me. Poor teachers forget what it was like to be a poor dancer. I already have a good idea what the teacher thinks by listening to them in class. Teachers tend to be tactful. Teachers don't recommend their competitors. Teachers tend to oversimplify. Teachers tend to repeat the "party line".??? If the teachers are so bad, why are you going to their lessons?

bigdjiver
11th-October-2004, 06:28 AM
More interesting is trying to work out how to lead moves that you initially think "cool - but impossable to lead in freestyle". Normally it involves a completley different way into it. There was a simple move I considered "educated" (Simon Selmon's term for a move both partners must know) in Peter's Blues workshop. I tried to go through it very slowly working out just how to try to set a lady who had not done it before off in the right direction but I ran into partner after partner who just set off on their own, then "helpfully" guided me into the next move because they thought I had not got it.

The blues attracts ladies who like to express themselves, and being in command. One thing I think I have learned from this workshop is next time to tell partner that I am going very slowly because I am trying to do three different new things at once, (legs here, body there, and what's coming next), and, at that particular moment, helpful advice is not required, or indeed, helpful.


Yes; tailor your dancing to match your partner - but I think you have to be careful where and how much you comprimise. I regret I must correct the typo. Where arguments with ladies are concerned "comprimise" is spelt "give in".

Lounge Lizard
11th-October-2004, 09:07 AM
Where to start...
...snip... Outside classes, the teacher is normally very busy. Some questions are politically awkward to ask a teacher. Teachers only have their own perspective. Teachers haven't spent much time dancing with me. Poor teachers forget what it was like to be a poor dancer. I already have a good idea what the teacher thinks by listening to them in class. Teachers tend to be tactful. Teachers don't recommend their competitors. Teachers tend to oversimplify. Teachers tend to repeat the "party line".
*shrug* You did ask...
When I was at school (way way back - I remember the religious studies class about a man meeting a stranger and asking what the next town was like - cos the people in my last town were boring and miserable (sumfing like that) the stranger advised they are the same in the next town.
The gist of the story (which we all probably know) is people and places are what we make them.

Are you sure ALL teachers fit the above description or just the ones at places YOU go to
LL :wink:

Gadget
11th-October-2004, 09:26 AM
During classes, asking the teacher questions interrupts everyone else's learning. Outside classes, the teacher is normally very busy. Some questions are politically awkward to ask a teacher. Teachers only have their own perspective. Teachers haven't spent much time dancing with me. Poor teachers forget what it was like to be a poor dancer. I already have a good idea what the teacher thinks by listening to them in class. Teachers tend to be tactful. Teachers don't recommend their competitors. Teachers tend to oversimplify. Teachers tend to repeat the "party line".
You don't dance in Scotland, do you? :D
- During a lesson, you shouldn't need to ask a question; the good teachers will notice when a class is struggling about a specific part of a move.
- Outside of a class, the teacher is busy doing exactly what you want them to do; being approached by people who may have had trouble with a bit of a move and asking how to get it right.
- ?Politically awkward? "I saw this great move at another venue - how do you do it?" Most teachers will take it as feedback that another venue has a good class, but poorer teacher; a compliment. And will probably help you.
- The teacher's perspective is probably the best one to go on; they will have had more experiance in where a move can go wrong and how to fix it.
- People who spend a lot of time dancing with you will know your patterns and habbits, they will know your dancing; how can they be expected to give impartial and accurate advice on how to improve it?
- No teacher I know of ever "forgets" what it's like to be a begginer; this is their primary target audience and they dance with them every class night.
- What the teacher says in class is for a general audience; if you talk to them one-on-one, they will have a more specific idea of what you are looking for and be able to help you better. The advice given here may be slightly different (or more in-depth) than from the stage.
- Teachers are as tactfull as they need to be. IMHO it's one of the hardest calls a teacher has to make; just how much criticism a dancer can take, and take well.
- I would say that any teacher who thinks that you need specialist training, would direct you to a specialist. But appart from that, they will show you what they know and help you to the best of their ability; if you are beyond their ability to help I'm sure that they would reffer you.
- If a teacher appears to "over simplify" in one-on-one tutorage, then it's because you haven't got the basics right. If they are not teaching you what you want to learn, perhaps it's what you need to learn first?
- A teacher will normally teach the moves they know. If they are a Ceroc teacher, then they will teach a move the way that Ceroc perform the move. {well, some of them :innocent:} I don't really see where the "party line" affects anything they would be teaching you.

A regular dancer knows how they lead or follow. They can feel where something is going wrong, but their diagnosis if how to solve it may be completley off the mark.

MartinHarper
11th-October-2004, 12:15 PM
If the teachers are so bad, why are you going to their lessons?

I didn't say they were bad. Many of the things I mentioned are positives: eg, teachers are busy because they are good. Others are facts of life: eg, competition. A few are occupational hazards of teaching: eg, simplification.
I find advice from teachers useful. I also find advice (solicited or otherwise) from other dancers useful. All sorts of advice need to be treated with caution.

Here's an example: On Mondays, I have a choice of a Ceroc Cheltenham session, a JazzJive session in Malvern, or a more advanced JazzJive session in Worcester. So, the question arises, which of these sessions is going to be best for my dancing? Now, who should I ask for advice on that one: the relevant teachers, or my fellow dancers?

Gordon J Pownall
11th-October-2004, 12:25 PM
Now, who should I ask for advice on that one: the relevant teachers, or my fellow dancers?

Why would you need to ask for advice - make your own mind up and base your decision upon your own experience as opposed to anothers perception of what is good for themselves....or what they think would be good for you...

You only need someone to hold your hand when you are dancing with them - get to the venue first...!!!!

(IMHO)... :cheers:

Gadget
11th-October-2004, 12:46 PM
Here's an example: On Mondays, I have a choice of a Ceroc Cheltenham session, a JazzJive session in Malvern, or a more advanced JazzJive session in Worcester. So, the question arises, which of these sessions is going to be best for my dancing? Now, who should I ask for advice on that one: the relevant teachers, or my fellow dancers?
Unless you can be at both, then compare the results from both, you will never know. You may go to the "advanced" one and they teach something you know all about already, the other "standard" one outlines a few things you hadn't thought on.

Pick which to go to for the company, the music, the dancing, and what you think on the communication ability of the teachers. Untill the class has passed, you are not going to know what (if any) impact it will have on your dancing; therefore it is pointless to make a decision on which to go to based on this criteria.

Ask advice on social issues from your fellow dancers. Ask advice on your dancing from teachers. Ask yourself which event you would rather go to.

jivecat
11th-October-2004, 02:16 PM
Mmmm . . . wouldn't it be wonderful if us girlies could have a girls only thread? Franck??

Err...just what I'd been thinking! But it'd never be allowed. For one thing there'd have to be a Men-only thread in the interests of equality. And would us girlies like that? .......well, maybe not. :sick:

Lory
11th-October-2004, 02:19 PM
For one thing there'd have to be a Men-only thread in the interests of equality. And would us girlies like that? .......well, maybe not. :sick:It might be an interesting insight! :wink:

Magic Hans
11th-October-2004, 02:33 PM
...
Here's an example: On Mondays, I have a choice of a Ceroc Cheltenham session, a JazzJive session in Malvern, or a more advanced JazzJive session in Worcester. So, the question arises, which of these sessions is going to be best for my dancing? Now, who should I ask for advice on that one: the relevant teachers, or my fellow dancers?

errrrr ..... go? and see what happens? .... or maybe I'm looking for a more complicated answer? :confused:

jivecat
11th-October-2004, 02:48 PM
The trend on this thread does seem to be that (in general) guys welcome being given unsolicited feedback and (in general) girls don't. Odd, because the myth is that guys have fragile egos that would be crushed by honest feedback. :) More advanced guys appear to have learnt that most girls don't welcome unsolicited feedback... a lesson I've yet to absorb.

Well, several ladies have categorically stated that they DO welcome unsolicited feedback. And it seems to me that several others have said that they don't like it partly because they resent men who assume that the lady is in error without realising or considering that it might be their own leading which has caused the mistake. The follower is very much at the mercy of the leader- unless you want us to backlead.


For myself, I would listen to any criticism that was made of my dancing, because it's in my own interests to do so, although I wouldn't be able to stop myself being irritated if it was delivered in a patronising manner, or by someone whose leading didn't fill me with confidence. If it came from someone who was clearly a far more skilled dancer than myself I would listen VERY carefully indeed, even if it wasn't a very comfortable experience for me.




It's unfortunate that a lot of the questions guys have to ask to figure out how to improve can come across as criticism. For example, more defensive ladies interpret a question like "Why did you spin?" as an attack on their following skills. More helpful ladies just answer the question. Really helpful ladies will take a comment like "you should have spun" and answer the question hidden behind it.



I should say that my above remarks only apply to random comments from strangers. I am happy to talk to anyone who wants to about why certain moves have worked/didn't work, interpreting the lead, what is expected of me as a follower etc, in a spirit of friendly and constructive partnership. Perhaps it would stop me saying "Did I do that right?", "Was that what you wanted me to do?" every 5 seconds.

DavidB
11th-October-2004, 03:07 PM
For one thing there'd have to be a Men-only thread in the interests of equality.But we already have.

DavidB
11th-October-2004, 03:08 PM
B****r. I wasn't supposed to let them know. Sorry guys. :blush: :blush:

Rhythm King
11th-October-2004, 03:24 PM
I have been getting a lot of unsolicted advice recently. I am not sure how my dancing is doing after it, but my confidence is at an all time low.

Having enjoyed dancing with you at several different venues and seen you dancing with others - Nigel Anderson springs to mind as an example - I don't think you have anything to worry about in the style, or quality of your dancing :flower: . If people are giving you advice, you can decide whether it's of value and make use of it, or leave it behind on the floor, when you walk off. After all it's your dance and your enjoyment. If you have difficulty following someone, perhaps you should consider it's their lead which may be unclear. Maybe you could give them some unsolicited feedback... :whistle:

As for Minnie M, I think you're a fab dancer too and am surprised anyone would have any reason to comment other than favourably :worthy:

I have actually started asking certain dancers for feedback on the "R-K experience", to try to improve the style and quality of my own leading. Sometimes during class and sometimes after a freestyle dance, particularly if a particular move is dependant on subtle leading technique.

I have to say I'm finding threads like this one very useful for my own personal development, with regard to what others think, but might not say, on the dancefloor. This includes both leaders and followers. I find myself constantly adjusting my technique and etiquette in response to matters discussed here, which I've never seriously thought about before.

R-K x

Andy McGregor
11th-October-2004, 03:35 PM
Some women hand bounce by default, to varying degrees. Would you like to dance with a guy who allowed you so little freedom you don't even get a say in the level of hand bounce? Or with a guy who concentrated on suppressing hand bouncing to the exclusion of, say, floorcraft?

Women (followers) give us their permission to lead them. If women are bouncing their hand or doing anything else which you haven't led, you haven't really been given their permission or at best you've been given conditional permission - "you can lead me but I'm going to do all these things you haven't led".

When leading you do give your partner the freedom to express themselves - but you give it and take it away as the dance progresses. For the lady to hijack you is a legitimate action too. But for her to have a perpetual bounce that doesn't fit the moves you want to do is, IMHO, completely wrong - especially if you don't want to do any moves, maybe just pausing or preparing for the next move.

On the other hand, there are many ladies who do bounce their hand in perpetual motion marking every beat, sometimes the off-beat too! As a guy this is difficult, do you suppress that bounce by holding your hand still? Do you say something? Me? I try to supress the bounce, if that doesn't work I go into the dancing equivalent of 'safe mode' and do nice easy moves, try to smile and say thank you for the lovely dance - then quickly find a new partner.


My father once told me: "don't accept responsibility without power". I'm happy to take some responsibility for suppressing my partner's flaws, if that's what she wants, provided that it comes with the power to give her unsolicited advice.

How do any of us know what a woman wants? We can't assume that she wants someone to take "responsibility for suppressing my partner's flaws". Especially when we consider that, up 'til the time she received the "unsolicited advice" she was in blissful ignorance.

Lynn
11th-October-2004, 04:49 PM
For myself, I would listen to any criticism that was made of my dancing, because it's in my own interests to do so, although I wouldn't be able to stop myself being irritated if it was delivered in a patronising manner, or by someone whose leading didn't fill me with confidence. If it came from someone who was clearly a far more skilled dancer than myself I would listen VERY carefully indeed, even if it wasn't a very comfortable experience for me. :yeah: Yes – the attitude and manner in which advice is given is what matters to me. If someone is merely criticising my style because its different to theirs, or telling me something to highlight the fact that they are much better than me, then its not a pleasant experience, but this is rare.

If a better dancer gives me feedback, advice, suggestions for improvement in a nice manner I take it as -
a) someone being helpful telling me useful things which will improve my dancing, and
b) an indication that they think I can do better, which if you look at it that way, can be a vote of confidence.

ChrisA
11th-October-2004, 06:07 PM
B****r. I wasn't supposed to let them know. Sorry guys. :blush: :blush:
Well for heavens sake don't add insult to injury by letting on that we know the password for the girls-only thread. You know... the one they're pretending doesn't exist...

Oops :blush:

DOH !

ChrisA
11th-October-2004, 06:35 PM
I try to supress the bounce, if that doesn't work I go into the dancing equivalent of 'safe mode' and do nice easy moves, try to smile and say thank you for the lovely dance - then quickly find a new partner.

And for the most part, so do I. Except in very rare cases where, for whatever reason, I'm confident of not overstepping the bounds of acceptability.

And I would guess 99% or more of people are exactly the same - none of us wants to cause offence, we are all vulnerable to criticism, and feel bad if our failings are brought to our attention, and so mostly we don't do it to others.

The net result, though, is that people will dance week in, week out, and hear a criticism with fewer than 1% of partners. So it's ever so easy to assume that because almost all the feedback is superficially good, everything is fine.

Clearly it isn't, or at least not necessarily, just because people say nice things, and I try very hard to perceive the truth beyond the thank-yous.

For my dancing to improve, I need to be as sensitive as possible to this less-than-1% - otherwise it's too easy to assume that because most people say nothing untoward to me, everything is fine.

I used to dance with lots of people who said nothing about all my poor leading and lack of musicality. Then a lovely lady said a few choice words and despite feeling an inch high, I set off on the long painful process of gradual improvement.

Difficult though it still is, I'd rather endure the truth. Fortunately it's usually pretty easy to tell when it's meant nicely.

Chris

Jon L
11th-October-2004, 07:04 PM
Women (followers) give us their permission to lead them. If women are bouncing their hand or doing anything else which you haven't led, you haven't really been given their permission or at best you've been given conditional permission - "you can lead me but I'm going to do all these things you haven't led".

When leading you do give your partner the freedom to express themselves - but you give it and take it away as the dance progresses. For the lady to hijack you is a legitimate action too. But for her to have a perpetual bounce that doesn't fit the moves you want to do is, IMHO, completely wrong - especially if you don't want to do any moves, maybe just pausing or preparing for the next move.

On the other hand, there are many ladies who do bounce their hand in perpetual motion marking every beat, sometimes the off-beat too! As a guy this is difficult, do you suppress that bounce by holding your hand still? Do you say something? Me? I try to supress the bounce, if that doesn't work I go into the dancing equivalent of 'safe mode' and do nice easy moves, try to smile and say thank you for the lovely dance - then quickly find a new partner.



Dear me! I would have appeared to open up a whole can of worms here :blush:

Minnie - I apologise if I have gone in the bad books :blush:

The original quote of this thread was after an experience at Hammersmith last Saturday. I wish to point out that the comment was not made in a nasty way at all - Those of you who know me well enough, should know that yes I am quite a "call a spade a spade " person, but I don't in any way have a malicious or arrogant streak or "hotshot" streak in me (at least I don't think I do) some of you may differ with me :tears: :tears:

Please note that the "tip" was made at the end of the record, and not during the middle of it and certainly not stopping to "teach" a move - that is totally unacceptable - I am not a teacher and would not even pretend to be one.

the actual piece of advice was one that Lily gave me, which I am very grateful for, and also Alina (Mr. Lizard's former partner) paid me a compliment about improving on it.

As to the validity of the "comment" itself, I refer to Andy's point above. Both women out of interest were really pleased for the tip, and noticed a difference and said so - I can only assume they were telling the truth. :nice:

Minnie M
11th-October-2004, 07:19 PM
That's it - can't carry this on any more as we are going around in circles. It's a shame we don't have time to read ALL the posts on a thread before making comments - and I am sorry to say I do the same myself :tears:

MartinHarper
11th-October-2004, 11:12 PM
go? and see what happens?

I have been to all three venues, and I certainly based my decision in large part upon my own impressions. However, I also got advice and thoughts from other dancers, including some facing similar choices. Maybe that's just my learning style. *shrug* If I thought my local teachers were the fount of all dancing wisdom, I wouldn't be reading this forum... :)


Several ladies have categorically stated that they DO welcome unsolicited feedback.

Very true. I was trying to talk about an overall trend - it seems to me, from the admittedly rather biased sample of folks posting to this thread, that on the whole, male dancers tend to be more receptive to unsolicited feedback than female dancers, in general. There are many exceptions, of course. I wouldn't have commented, were it not that the trend on this thread matches my experience. I was kind of wondering - do other dancers have the same experience?

Gus
11th-October-2004, 11:51 PM
That's it - can't carry this on any more as we are going around in circles. It's a shame we don't have time to read ALL the posts on a thread before making comments - and I am sorry to say I do the same myself :tears:OK .. I apologise now if I say what has aid before but the painkillers are just starting to kick in.

I've just got back from a 'social' game of volleyball ... first game I've played in a number of years ... BUT, at some point in my dark past, I used to be OK at it and my mind remembers what to do even if my un-conditioned body can no longer meet the expectations put upon it. SO WHAT I hear you cry ... WELL ..... for two hours I went through an inner hell. The people were playing for fun .... if they managed to keep the ball in the air that was OK, three touches was a major achievement ... but there was no technique , court positioning or correct hitting of the ball. The mistakes they were making were simple ... 15 minutes coaching and I could have vastly improved what they were doing ... I found myself repeatedly saying things like "relax", "use two hands" "use les force" .. all things meant to encourage and guide ... and probably as annoying as hell to the recipient.

It took me a few sets to realise that I'd fallen into the same trap as many in this debate who like to offer advice ... with all the best intention in the world. What if the recipient DOESN’T WANT ANY? Yes you may be right, yes you may be able to help ... but a good many dancers just want to enjoy not get lectured or corrected.

Learning point? Dunno. I think the right or wrong rests more on the intended recipient than on the expertise (perceived or otherwise) of the advisor. If someone doesn’t want to be lectured, then even word from Viktor may not be welcome. Maybe its a good idea to suss out whether the person you are dancing with would really appreciate advice before you start giving it. :sick:

PS .... come to realise that volleyball REALLY hurts ... especialy when you forget to land on your feet and instead use an assortment of other body parts as landing points ... especially the back of your head :tears:

Minnie M
12th-October-2004, 08:05 AM
That's it - can't carry this on any more as we are going around in circles. It's a shame we don't have time to read ALL the posts on a thread before making comments - and I am sorry to say I do the same myself :tears:

This thread is really getting to me now :sad:

I started it so, in I have read ALL the posts, and I (IMO) have come to the conclusion and possibly changed my mind a little :blush: that :-

[ Unsolicited advice is sometimes welcome by both sexes depending who gives it AND should only be given in the class by someone the recipitant either knows and respects (if not the teacher/taxi) and shouldn't be given during a weekend social night. This includes "talking" a move through- UNLESS asked for :clap:

I have to admit the unsolicited advice I have been given in the past has usually been on social nights and ALWAYS from partners who assume by looking at me that I am a beginner :tears:

Last Sunday I went to a Ceroc night and had with a very new dancer who had never met me - talking the class move through with me (which I missed) but still couldn't lead it. It was very frustrating but I let him believe it was my fault he couldn't lead it :blush: He next danced with my friend (a good dancer and he had also not met before) and the same thing happened. What I am trying to say, is that there are some moves that are a little complicated to lead and this is were help is required, I assume this is when the taxi dancer should be at hand, they were certainly a help to me when learning but do you HAVE to ask :confused:

Also, the chap was obviously a new dancer, so why was he in the intermediate class ? Or was it because he is a slow learner as it appears to be the length of time that denotes you moving up to beginner to intermediate (or is this a theme for another thread)

ChrisA
12th-October-2004, 10:09 AM
It was very frustrating but I let him believe it was my fault he couldn't lead it. He next danced with my friend (a good dancer and he had also not met before) and the same thing happened

If this is common practice, it's no wonder beginner and early intermediate guys get so confused, and with bad habits ingrained. They dance and lead badly, and are told, or led to believe that they're doing fine. :confused:

And if people get yanked about by guys that think they're doing the right thing providing a "strong" or "firm" lead, and the ladies don't tell them (and even worse, keep on smiling regardless), then the guys won't ever know they're doing it. :sad:

Similarly perving. If the girls just smile sweetly, say thank you, and then just avoid the wrongdoers (or worse still, continue to dance with them but attempt to hold them off), these guys will never get the message that their behaviour is not acceptable. :mad:

I'm sorry ladies, as time goes by the more I become convinced that in some ways you make a rod for your own backs. If you want guys to lead well, with consideration and without feeling you up, they need a lot more of the right messages getting through. :flower:

Which is NO to the infliction of pain, and NO to groping or other types of contact that you don't want. Mostly the pervs are not nice guys, they are predatory types that will not change. When they get told that their behaviour is unacceptable clearly enough and often enough, they tend to leave a venue and pop up at another one where they aren't known so well.

But the bad leaders and even the yankers are mostly decent guys trying to do their best. If they get good, constructive feedback they will try to improve - and most of them will succeed at least to some degree and will then give you a more enjoyable dance. :clap:

The bottom line is, given that classes for the most part do not address these issues, they will not get feedback from anyone except the people they dance with.

It's up to you!! :flower: :flower:

Chris

Gadget
12th-October-2004, 10:34 AM
I fear that are multiple dangers in following the above advice too stringently;
- pawning off your own poor dancing to your partner
- offering unsolicited, incorrect, or poor advice
- mistakeing or missreading innocent actions
- a single error due to one partner may be blown out of proportion
- your comments may destroy that a person's hard won confidence

I'm not saying that painfull or sleasy leads should be ignored, just that discression, courtesy and a positive attitude should be allowed to taint any feedback you feel obliged to impart to your partner. {Chris's post came accross a bit harsh IMHO}

CJ
12th-October-2004, 10:36 AM
Well, you will read the words of a hotshot!! :wink:

:whistle:

Andy McGregor
12th-October-2004, 10:36 AM
The bottom line is, given that classes for the most part do not address these issues, they will not get feedback from anyone except the people they dance with.

It's up to you!! :flower: :flower:

Chris

And there you have it. Most classes teach to the Ceroc formula; this is the same formula everywhere (except Ceroc Plus :clap: ), just like McDonalds. And have you ever tried to get a Big Mac without the gherkin?

At all the Ceroc classes I've been to I've not seen anyone, apart from absolute beginners, getting any feedback about their dancing from the teachers or the taxi dancers. So Chris is right, people need to get this feedback from the other dancers if they're going to progress. However, after you've got a frosty reception from the odd woman you've tried to coach you'd be forgiven for just getting on with the dancing you've paid to do.

The one exception* I make to my personal 'no comment' rule is with beginners and people I've known since they were beginners. I know where they're up to in their learning curve and know what they should be thinking about next. And, most importantly, I've been coaching them since they started so we've got into a sort of mentoring situation where they expect the occasional hint and, more importantly, loads of encouragement :flower:


*except for my other exception, which is where they're yanking me about or in danger of hurting themselves or me :tears:

Minnie M
12th-October-2004, 11:12 AM
If this is common practice, it's no wonder beginner and early intermediate guys get so confused, and with bad habits ingrained. They dance and lead badly, and are told, or led to believe that they're doing fine.

Yes :yeah: you ARE right, however, in this case we missed the class and really didn't know what he was trying to do -(it is a long way from Brighton to where we were going it took about an hour and we unfortunately left a little late)

Maybe the answer is to do the class or at least see it, in order to help the beginners etc. I will make sure (if possible) to do this in future :cheers:


.........and are told, or led to believe that they're doing fine.

I think by the pained look on our faces he must have known something was wrong :really:

MartinHarper
12th-October-2004, 11:26 AM
I let him believe it was my fault he couldn't lead it

... or he let you believe that you had let him believe that it was his fault he couldn't lead it. I know I do that all the time - it just makes life easier. Then again, perhaps my partners only let me believe that I've let them believe that they've let me believe that it was their fault that I coudn't lead it.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave.

ChrisA
12th-October-2004, 11:30 AM
I fear that are multiple dangers in following the above advice too stringently;
- pawning off your own poor dancing to your partner
- offering unsolicited, incorrect, or poor advice
- mistakeing or missreading innocent actions
- a single error due to one partner may be blown out of proportion
- your comments may destroy that a person's hard won confidence



Sorry, what advice? I'm not suggesting people do any of these things. Please don't read so much that I haven't said into my posts?

I'm talking specifically about the following:

- experienced dancers such as Minnie, allowing beginners to believe that their bad leading is not their fault, purely to avoid conflict and bad feeling. The guy in her example has gone away thinking that he was dancing well and leading accurately when he wasn't. So he will continue to do it wrong.

- ladies putting up with pain and perving.

I certainly don't condone "advice" during freestyle dancing... although I'm happy to receive it, I don't give it unless the lady is clearly a beginner and struggling with something that's easy to fix and will result in a lot more enjoyment for her.

Chris

ChrisA
12th-October-2004, 11:38 AM
I think by the pained look on our faces he must have known something was wrong :really:
Unfortunately I am convinced this is not true.

If it was true that most guys could read ladies' expressions, then for sure there would be less yanking and perving going on.

But for the most part, I fear that many guys are not able to discern the difference between that fixed rictus of pain, and a genuine smile of enjoyment. :tears: :rofl:

Chris

Andy McGregor
12th-October-2004, 11:50 AM
- ladies putting up with pain and perving.

I only inflict pain and perving on request - as Lory mentioned on another thread :wink:

ChrisA
12th-October-2004, 11:55 AM
I only inflict pain and perving on request - as Lory mentioned on another thread :wink:
Absolutely.

Nothing I've ever said should be interpreted as implying that wanted perving is unacceptable. It's only the unwanted perving that's bad.

If you want it, you should have it, is my view.

:devil:

jivecat
12th-October-2004, 12:06 PM
Minnie's right, we are going round in circles here. There's no definitive answer to this debate, IMHO.

Some people like feedback, others don't.
Some people like it sometimes.

I have a lot of sympathy with both Gadget & Chris A's posts above.


I want to improve and so must accept criticism, but not under all circumstances.
I need to find ways to help my partners but don't want to be rude or damage their confidence.
I usually know if there has been an error in the lead, but don't have the expertise or the authority to begin to help put it right. Time I learnt to lead the basic moves myself, I think.

Thanks to those people who have suggested concrete ways of tactfully exploring the learning partnership, which I find very useful. (Sorry, just like school, but I'm trying to express it in a way which will offend the least number of people.) I know I find it very hard (and not only in the dance sphere, it's happened in climbing) to tell a man when he is doing something wrong, about some objective issue, (I'm not talking emotions here) even when I know he is. I have this expectation that either he must know better than me ( :eek: :really: :sad: this is 2004 not 1904) or I think he's so fragile that his ego will collapse totally at being corrected by a mere woman. So I shut up most of the time. Or get involved in these weird manipulative sexual politics as described so honestly by Minnie and MartinHarper.
:kiss:

(Ducks head, as verbal missiles fly over.)

bigdjiver
12th-October-2004, 12:11 PM
I do, and it happens very occasionally, stop a dance with a beginner to tell her that she is dancing dangerously, even though I know a teacher, taxi dancer, or painful experience is going to tell her the same thing.

I do often prompt my partner that if I am doing something she does not like to tell me.

One technique for giving advice with less danger of offence is to praise good practise in others. "That's ****, I love dancing with him, his touch is as light as a feather."

ChrisA
12th-October-2004, 12:21 PM
There's no definitive answer to this debate, IMHO.

Some people like feedback, others don't.
Some people like it sometimes.


......... :yeah:

I totally accept that there are lots of grey areas here. Where erring on the side of saying nothing is probably fine. Where a smile and a thank you for a dance that wasn't quite perfect is completely appropriate.

I'm not talking about these grey areas though.

If it hurts, you shouldn't pretend it didn't. MJ should be a pain-free activity!!!

I'm bored now, though, so I'll get back in my box (for now :devil: ). Thanks to CJ for his predictably helpful contribution :flower:

Chris

Rachel
12th-October-2004, 12:23 PM
Slightly different angle - though open to the same subjective responses, I'm sure ...

When can/should you ask for advice?

Sounds silly, I know, but what I mean is - I've sometimes had dances with a teacher or expert dancer (NOT referring to dancing with them at a venue where they've just been teaching) and I've been desperate to ask for advice but felt that I shouldn't.

Basically, if they're out for a social night's dancing, just the same as I am, why should they give up their free time to coach me? I'm not talking about specifics - 'how do I do such-and-such'. I'm really just wanting general feeback on what I need to work on.

I have to admit, I have on occasion asked David B for tips when we're just having a social dance. But, in general, I feel very guilty about doing this. I guess if I wanted personal feedback, I should pay for private classes really - do you think?

Rachel

CJ
12th-October-2004, 12:33 PM
Thanks to CJ for his predictably helpful contribution :flower:

Chris

It was an honour and privelage just to be in the same cyberspace, breathing the same cyberair, with such a legend.

I look forward to when the experience enriches my dancing and, indeed, my life in general.

:waycool:

Until then, I am your mortal, humble, but well meaning CJ.

MartinHarper
12th-October-2004, 12:35 PM
"That's ****, I love dancing with him, his touch is as light as a feather."

I think this is particularly good, because it says "I love dancing with him", rather than "he is lovely to dance with". I know a couple of very experienced women who prefer a touch considerably heavier than a feather. I'm still trying to decide if they are the exception or the rule.

ChrisA
12th-October-2004, 01:12 PM
enriches my dancing and, indeed, my life in general.

Don't worry, I'll only ever do either of these by accident :flower:

CJ
12th-October-2004, 01:14 PM
Don't worry, I'll only ever do either of these by accident :flower:

I meant Gadget.

Gadget
12th-October-2004, 01:18 PM
{CJ: :rofl::rofl:}


When can/should you ask for advice?
When do I ask? When I see someone I respect sitting chatting, I wait for an opening and ask them. (Or ask them to dance if they are female, then it depends on the song if I ask on the way to the floor or from the floor :D)
Generally I will ask at workshops or perhaps during a lesson if I can't get something.

When am I receptive to being asked? Almost any time, with the exception of in the middle of a dance - unless it's a begginer who is struggling with a yo-yo and hatchback, or first move, or similar; then I try to lead very clearly and incorporate it into the rest of the dance. I think that the best way I can explain how the lady should move is to get her to relax, trust me, and follow what I lead. (I can show begginer's the basics, but anything more advanced, I re-direct to a teacher or better dancer than me)

When do I approach people with the view of giving advice? When I see people standing at the side, practicing and trying to get things right in their heads; if they look like they are getting it wrong, I will hover untill I am sure I can help - then give some advice and leave them to it.


I think I am approached to advise about once a month, but only seek it out about once a year :blush: I figure that I've got enough little things I'm working on improving by my self without asking for anyone else's opinion on where I could improve. I know if I've improved (or not :rolleyes: ) by the reaction from my partners and the tactile feedback through the lead.
I'm given advice when I ask for it or within a workshop. Seldom (if ever) have I been given unsolicited advice, so I don't really know how I would react to it.

Rachel
12th-October-2004, 01:38 PM
When do I ask? When I see someone I respect sitting chatting, I wait for an opening and ask them. (Or ask them to dance if they are female, then it depends on the song if I ask on the way to the floor or from the floor :D)
Generally I will ask at workshops or perhaps during a lesson if I can't get something. ... Thanks, Gadget. But, outside of lessons and workshops, are any of the people you ask teachers? What I mean is, is it ever right to ask teachers for advice when they're 'off-duty'?
Rachel

Gus
12th-October-2004, 01:47 PM
is it ever right to ask teachers for advice when they're 'off-duty'?Teachers are NEVER off duty :(

ChrisA
12th-October-2004, 01:50 PM
I meant Gadget.
Whatever. I meant you :flower:

DavidB
12th-October-2004, 01:55 PM
When can/should you ask for advice?
I've made the following suggestion before, but it was just brushed off as a joke. I'm pretty thick-skinned, so I'll try again...

Get together a small group of the best leaders & followers at a venue. Give them T-shirts that say "Blitz/Ceroc/Leroc (delete as applicable) Teaching Assistant". Then during the intermediate class their job is to give people unsolicited advice. Make sure everyone else in the class knows that they will do this.

Rachel
12th-October-2004, 02:07 PM
Get together a small group of the best leaders & followers at a venue. Give them T-shirts that say "Blitz/Ceroc/Leroc (delete as applicable) Teaching Assistant". Then during the intermediate class their job is to give people unsolicited advice. Make sure everyone else in the class knows that they will do this. You know, I think I like this. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I like it. I'm sure it would encourage more newer intermediates to feel happier about joining in, and have fewer unrotating nervous couples at the back ... And, you never know, it may even get people dancing better!

I'll leave others to raise the inevitable concerns and potential problems - how to choose the best dancers without offending others, etc etc etc. (I'm going to cop out now and get back to work)
Rachel

Rachel
12th-October-2004, 02:09 PM
Just another quickie -
Alternatively, couldn't we just have more taxi dancers at every venue, so there's enough to help out in the intermediate class, in addition to those taking the beginners' refresher?
R.

Dreadful Scathe
12th-October-2004, 02:12 PM
I like Davids idea but the ensuing fights started by the extremely thin-skinned people on the receiving end of advice can be discouraged if the t-shirted advice givers are armed with Tazers. s0rted. no flaws :)

some possible conversations :


'er.. excuse me, can I suggest you try NOT to drop a lady without looking to see if her head will land between the legs of some other dancer'
'**** off mate Ive been dancing since I was 6'
'ZAP!'


'Ive noticed you have a weak lead problem - this lady is confused'
'No, shes resting..'
'I assure you Sir, she is confused'
'No, No. Look at the beautiful plummage'
'Her dress sense doesn't enter into it Sir. Shes confused'
'Look I...'
'ZAP!'

Gadget
12th-October-2004, 02:40 PM
What I mean is, is it ever right to ask teachers for advice when they're 'off-duty'?
Personally, I think that if they taught a class, then they are "on-duty" until they exit the building. But I'm not a teacher or franchisee.
If they just so happen to be attending another class/night where they are not teaching, then I would treat them as any other respected dancer.

Get together a small group of the best leaders & followers at a venue. Give them T-shirts that say "Blitz/Ceroc/Leroc (delete as applicable) Teaching Assistant". Then during the intermediate class their job is to give people unsolicited advice. Make sure everyone else in the class knows that they will do this.
Good idea; as long as they take the t-shirts off after the class (Perhaps arm bands would work better?)
The only problems I can see would be similar to selection of Taxi dancers, and that seems to work.

I wouldn't necissaraly have off-duty taxis dancers - just a selection of four or five people decided (offered to) on the night.

If people wanted to 'opt out' of criticism, then they just indicate this as soon as they are rotated to a "teaching assistant". Same if they are having troubles with a particular move.

The only problem I can see would be disruption while the TA took their partner over a bit that didn't match what the rest of the class was doing.

MartinHarper
12th-October-2004, 02:48 PM
I think Taxi dancers have a seperate skill set to those the "Teaching Assistants" DavidB suggests would require. Also, during freestyle, "assistants" would focus on dancing with, and giving advice to, intermediates, whereas taxis focus on dancing with, and giving advice to, beginners.

Still, "Teaching Assistants" is a bit formal: perhaps "Minicabs"? :)

Lory
12th-October-2004, 03:08 PM
it's no wonder beginner and early intermediate guys get so confused, and with bad habits ingrained. They dance and lead badly, and are told, or led to believe that they're doing fine. :confused:

ChrisI know I'm guilty of this :blush: the trouble is, I just want to encourage and say nice things :rolleyes: :innocent:

I was dancing with a beginner recently and I KNOW I was compensating a lot for his bad leading. I was also making bits up and gently pulling him back in time with the music.
At the end of the dance, he said to me, I really feel like I'm getting the hang of it now, I can dance really well with you :clap: but some girls, just can't follow! :sick:
I took a deep breath, then thought better of it! :o

Still, "Teaching Assistants" is a bit formal: perhaps "Minicabs"? :)
Limo's, surely? :whistle:

Dreadful Scathe
12th-October-2004, 03:13 PM
Limo's, surely? :whistle:

It depends if you are sleek and beautifully upholstered :)

Lory
12th-October-2004, 03:26 PM
It depends if you are sleek and beautifully upholstered :)
OK then

School buses?

Stretched Hummers?

Rickshaws?

Tuk-tuks? :rofl:

Jon L
12th-October-2004, 04:43 PM
I think Taxi dancers have a seperate skill set to those the "Teaching Assistants" DavidB suggests would require. Also, during freestyle, "assistants" would focus on dancing with, and giving advice to, intermediates, whereas taxis focus on dancing with, and giving advice to, beginners.

Still, "Teaching Assistants" is a bit formal: perhaps "Minicabs"? :)

I have often thought there is a place for second level taxi dancers who offer advice to intermediates rather than work with beginners. Someone suggested to me last year that I should develop this skill.

I don't know of ceroc franchises that have second level taxis

ChrisA
12th-October-2004, 05:21 PM
At the end of the dance, he said to me, I really feel like I'm getting the hang of it now, I can dance really well with you :clap: but some girls, just can't follow!

I blamed the girls too at one time :blush: :blush: . In fact until not all that long ago, every time I achieved any improvement, I found myself starting to blame them again when things went wrong - cos I'd got my lead sorted out, hadn't I???

Duhhh.... yeah right :blush:

[smacks head on spike]

Now what happens is that every time I get a bit better again, I know that pretty soon I'll realise how (not if) it's still my fault when it goes wrong.

Chris

Pete
12th-October-2004, 05:25 PM
I have often thought there is a place for second level taxi dancers who offer advice to intermediates rather than work with beginners. Someone suggested to me last year that I should develop this skill.

I don't know of ceroc franchises that have second level taxis

Last week I asked a taxi to dance with me and give me some feedback/tips (I'm sort of intermeditate level). She did, and it was REALLY useful. But I felt I might be breaking some sort of protocol - are taxi dancers there only for beginners?

Jon L
12th-October-2004, 05:38 PM
Last week I asked a taxi to dance with me and give me some feedback/tips (I'm sort of intermeditate level). She did, and it was REALLY useful. But I felt I might be breaking some sort of protocol - are taxi dancers there only for beginners?

Good on you I would carry on asking for advice :clap: :clap: - the official "ceroc" line is that your a beginner if you have done 6 lessons or less. In practice it took me over two years before becoming a competant intermediate and three years before smoothness developed. The taxis should offer the intermediates advice (as did one at Guildford to me around the same time).

Rachel
12th-October-2004, 05:45 PM
Last week I asked a taxi to dance with me and give me some feedback/tips (I'm sort of intermeditate level). She did, and it was REALLY useful. But I felt I might be breaking some sort of protocol - are taxi dancers there only for beginners? Well, I always think if I'm taxiing that, if it's a quiet week for beginners, then I would be more useful dancing with intermediates, than not at all - I'm talking particularly about newer intermediates.

But I'll talk/dance with anyone who has questions, wants to go over a move, etc, as long as I'm not neglecting the beginners. And there's always time at the end of the evening when we're off duty, to ask taxi's for tips/feedback. So no, I don't think taxi's are there exclusively for beginners, although they're obviously our priority.
Rachel

MartinHarper
12th-October-2004, 06:58 PM
There's always time at the end of the evening when we're off duty, to ask taxi's for tips/feedback

But... aren't you off duty? It feels like that would be like asking a teacher when they're at some other venue...

ChrisA
12th-October-2004, 07:10 PM
But... aren't you off duty? It feels like that would be like asking a teacher when they're at some other venue...
Well, yes, we are. But don't let that stop you. :flower:

I would be very surprised if you could find many taxi dancers that would be unwilling to help people of any level, whether they're on duty or not.

Actually it's great when people ask for help - beginners or intermediates - you can be sure they genuinely want to learn.

And (contrary to the image that the few bad apples sometimes put out, by just dancing amongst themselves or other friends - whether on duty or not, judging from some people's experience :mad: :what: :eek: )...

... it is in fact a source of pleasure to be able to help people if they're experiencing difficulties. So even if we've changed out of the shirt, I'd still encourage people to come up and ask. Or just ask for a dance, and ask during the dance. :flower:

Chris

Tiggerbabe
12th-October-2004, 11:23 PM
... it is in fact a source of pleasure to be able to help people if they're experiencing difficulties. So even if we've changed out of the shirt, I'd still encourage people to come up and ask. Or just ask for a dance, and ask during the dance. :flower:

Chris
:yeah: Totally agree - you don't stop being a taxi dancer just because you've taken your taxi shirt off :hug:

Gadget
13th-October-2004, 08:31 AM
Taxi dancers are selected (primaraly) for their love of dancing and eagerness to pass it on; they generally are the sort of people that would be glad to offer advice if asked, no matter when or what they are wearing.

ChrisA
13th-October-2004, 09:10 AM
Taxi dancers are selected (primarily) for their love of dancing and eagerness to pass it on; they generally are the sort of people that would be glad to offer advice if asked, no matter when or what they are wearing.
...... :yeah:

Careful... it looks like I'm agreeing with you again.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Rachel
13th-October-2004, 09:13 AM
But... aren't you off duty? It feels like that would be like asking a teacher when they're at some other venue... I absolutely agree with Chris, Sheena and Gadget. I'd never ever mind someone asking me for advice - no matter what level they were or where/when it was. It's very flattering, actually. I can't think many people would want my advice, but that's not the point!

The difference I see between that and asking a teacher when they're at a different venue is that a lot of teachers have to make at least part of their living from teaching. They need you to come to their lessons and, if someone wanted personal feedback, they should perhaps pay for the teacher's expertise by attending workshops and private lessons.

However, if any teacher happens to feel like giving me some free personal feedback on my dancing, please please do!!! ;)
Rachel

Dreadful Scathe
13th-October-2004, 09:15 AM
:yeah: Totally agree - you don't stop being a taxi dancer just because you've taken your taxi shirt off :hug:
well if you're taking your taxi shirt off Im sure it will be an extra incentive for the beginners to come back :)

Gadget
13th-October-2004, 09:47 AM
The difference I see between that and asking a teacher when they're at a different venue is that a lot of teachers have to make at least part of their living from teaching. They need you to come to their lessons and, if someone wanted personal feedback, they should perhaps pay for the teacher's expertise by attending workshops and private lessons.
I understand this "guilt" factor - but the way I see it, they are there to teach that night: Not just from stage, but untill they leave.
The comment of "If you have any problems with any part of this, come find me after the class" is said at almost every class I've been to. Perhaps it's the teacher's perceived attitude?

If they are there to dance, then I will treat them as any other dancer; if I am looking fo advice on a perticular aspect of my dancing I will dance with someone and ask their opinion - that someone may be an (off duty) teacher or may be another dancer I respect.

Graham
13th-October-2004, 01:40 PM
Just to echo what the other taxi dancers have already said, I love it when people come and ask questions, and am always happy to help anyone who asks, on or off duty.

I think David's idea is a good one. I've long thought that we need some kind of taxi-like service for intermediates. I think it would be worth trying at a venue as an experiment, to see how useful/off-putting people found it.

Andy McGregor
13th-October-2004, 01:45 PM
I think David's idea is a good one.

I think the concept is a good one, but t-shirts :sick:

Maybe something with a bit of glitter, a different colourway section, a vee-neck, containing Lycra (tm), with a couple of rips, etc, but not a plain cotton t-shirt, sooooo unflattering :eek:

DianaS
14th-October-2004, 11:48 AM
Just to echo what the other taxi dancers have already said, I love it when people come and ask questions, and am always happy to help anyone who asks, on or off duty.

I think David's idea is a good one. I've long thought that we need some kind of taxi-like service for intermediates. I think it would be worth trying at a venue as an experiment, to see how useful/off-putting people found it.
That sounds like a really good idea!
I'd go for it! :nice:
D

Gordon J Pownall
14th-October-2004, 11:51 AM
That sounds like a really good idea!
I'd go for it! :nice:
D

...but only if Andy McG can be the style guru and image consultant... :sick: :rolleyes: :really: :what: :whistle: :clap: :worthy:

DavidB
14th-October-2004, 12:32 PM
...but only if Andy McG can be the style guru and image consultantI had a feeling he was involved in the CerocMetro team costumes...

a bit of glitter, a different colourway section, a vee-neck, containing Lycra (tm), with a couple of rips, etc

bigdjiver
14th-October-2004, 03:05 PM
At my local venue there are often little impromptu classes given by the more experienced in the entrance hall, or as the DJ is packing up.

jivecat
14th-October-2004, 07:05 PM
I think the concept is a good one, but t-shirts :sick:

Maybe something with a bit of glitter, a different colourway section, a vee-neck, containing Lycra (tm), with a couple of rips, etc, but not a plain cotton t-shirt, sooooo unflattering :eek:


:yeah: :yeah: Let's get our priorities right!