Salsa & MJ

[Zuhal]

I have been putting myself through Salsa and thought that some of you might share some of your experiences. :flower:

My first night was less than welcoming and one has to steel yourself to go and be inadequate.

It is not a beginner friendly environment because there is an enormous jump from beginner to being able to freestyle. There is also a 40 min time lag from the beginner class until some freestyle time. Most of the beginners run off home. I am Mr Brassneck so I have been doing every class that they will allow and ask people to help me for a few mins each during the rest of the evening.

Strangely I do not have any trouble differentiating between moves and movement between MJ and Salsa. The music helps throw this switch in my small brain.

The teaching in Salsa seems to be less planned and can be quite confusing when the sequence being taught is changed again and again during the class. (This is fine if the lady is following you but not so good if you are leading the taught sequence and the teacher is calling the new might be better, easier sequence)

What’s all that Mambo warm up stroll nonsense? :what:

During the freestyle they stop the music tween tracks and invite you to dance with someone that you have never danced with before. (good idea)

It is more difficult to grasp than MJ and I need a whole new language. Still not sure whether I am Cuban, New York, on 2, or shiney!

The ‘Hotshot ‘ quotient is very high, though the ladies are less guilty because the ratios always mean that there are far more ladies than partners

At the moment I am no good at Salsa and not enjoying the MJ so it all seems a bit too much like hard work. Think I need an inspirational workshop.

Zuhal

[philsmove]

I have just started salsa too Fiddles in BRISTOL

My experience is the opposite BUT I am only attending beginners

I like the warm up session

The Standard of instruction was extremely high. The teachers were Cressida and Rohan who had an infectious enthusiasm

The class was very friendly, with quite a few familiar faces from local MJ classes . I realised I had danced MJ with the teacher in the past, although I did not know she was a teacher when I first asked her to dance.

Friends who are trying to move up to intermediate level as fast as possible are finding it “challenging “

My advice - take it slowly and enjoyed yourself :waycool:

[Lynn]

The ‘Hotshot ‘ quotient is very high, though the ladies are less guilty because the ratios always mean that there are far more ladies than partners :yeah: The result is that you can sit an entire evening at a salsa dance and only dance with the men you came with, (this has never happened at to me at MJ). Add to that the music is usually too loud and the venues crowded and smoky. So I stopped going to salsa classes because I was learning a dance but rarely getting to dance it!

[Lynn]

Sorry if last post sounded a bit negative - there are lots of really lovely people on the salsa scene here (and the nicest do MJ too! :hug: ) but I have never really enjoyed a salsa dance as its too loud to talk but I'm not up dancing much. And there is a 'them and us' attitude between some of the better dancers and the rest. Which is a shame as I was enjoying learning it at first and I did it every week for 4 months.

[Bigger Andy]

From my experience, the most difficult thing to get to grips with in Salsa is the fact that you get taught a 'routine' rather than being taught a series of individual moves.

I find that I remember the routine during the class, but that's it. By the following week it has gone. :sad:

Because MJ is taught as a series of individual moves I find it easier to pick out the ones I like and remember them. :nice:



I have heard it said that it is better to learn Salsa first before you learn MJ. I guess that this is because of the footwork rules involved with Salsa.



I too like the warm ups that they do at Salsa classes. It is much more fun than the warm-ups that we do at our Ceroc classes. :devil:


.

[bigdjiver]

I too like the warm ups that they do at Salsa classes. It is much more fun than the warm-ups that we do at our Ceroc classes. :devil:.Salsa classes differ very much in their formats.

I liked merenque, which is also taught at many, and "borrowed" little bits for MJ, for a while, although they seem to have fallen out of my normal use.

[Gadget]

My breif delve into Salsa definetly improved my dancing: it was more the positioning of the lady and yourself to her than the actual "footwork" - the realisation that if you actually move beside your partner, your arms don't have to streach, you don't need to lean, you don't have to pull at the lady, and everything works smoother.

[Groovy Dancer]

I have been putting myself through Salsa and thought that some of you might share some of your experiences. :flower:

My first night was less than welcoming and one has to steel yourself to go and be inadequate.

It is not a beginner friendly environment because there is an enormous jump from beginner to being able to freestyle. There is also a 40 min time lag from the beginner class until some freestyle time. Most of the beginners run off home. I am Mr Brassneck so I have been doing every class that they will allow and ask people to help me for a few mins each during the rest of the evening.

Strangely I do not have any trouble differentiating between moves and movement between MJ and Salsa. The music helps throw this switch in my small brain.

The teaching in Salsa seems to be less planned and can be quite confusing when the sequence being taught is changed again and again during the class. (This is fine if the lady is following you but not so good if you are leading the taught sequence and the teacher is calling the new might be better, easier sequence)

What’s all that Mambo warm up stroll nonsense? :what:

During the freestyle they stop the music tween tracks and invite you to dance with someone that you have never danced with before. (good idea)

It is more difficult to grasp than MJ and I need a whole new language. Still not sure whether I am Cuban, New York, on 2, or shiney!

The ‘Hotshot ‘ quotient is very high, though the ladies are less guilty because the ratios always mean that there are far more ladies than partners

At the moment I am no good at Salsa and not enjoying the MJ so it all seems a bit too much like hard work. Think I need an inspirational workshop.

Zuhal



I have done salsa for quite sometime, and in my experience you need to have an open mind, and ready to do something new and challenging.

Each 'salsa venue' has its own class structure, from beginners, to improvers, intermediates, and advanced. Where you decide to start should depend on your own capabilities.

I have expierienced very unfriendly teaching, but usually it is in the form of the teacher not being patient with the progress of the class(and this is usually in the intermediate, or advanced class) not the actual individuals. :rolleyes: They assume you know the all the basics and with the size of some classes that I have been to,there is no time to really emphasize on basics so sometimes the attitude is you need to keep up and concentrate. :tears:
Basically the routines being taught are meant to give more ability for your freestyle as well as give you an insight into various moves.

The mambo stroll, the electric slide, is used as a warm up with a added bonus, it kinda puts you in the mode for dancing salsa, it is not mandatory but it is good fun. :clap:

IMHO, it doesn't matter what style you do, the lady does follow,even if it is only basic steps. Mind you I do get the bored looks sometimes when I do the same step for about five times in succession. :rofl: :yeah:

I did salsa long before MJ, and to me it has helped me understand some complex moves better, and made MJ for me quite an enjoyable hobby, but I am still not as confident as I hoped I would be. (I say this because i ventured to a salsa venue last night and I almost sat out the whole night :( )


Salsa is not hard,you just need to stick at it, take one move at a time and add it to what you already know. No one expects you to know loads of moves, but just a confident lead and the basic timing helps alot. :yeah: The ladies will always dance with you no matter what level, they always tell me 'Just lead and I'll follow you'. :eek:

My final word, perseverance. :cheers:


KGD

[Minnie M]

......../snip/........I did salsa long before MJ..........

So that's where you get your sexy wiggle from :drool:

Have to say the MJ scene is far the most friendly of all the dance style scenes I have been involved in (including Lindy & Rock 'n' Roll) :clap: :yeah:

[Groovy Dancer]

[QUOTE=Minnie M]So that's where you get your sexy wiggle from :drool:

Let's keep that a secret. :whistle: :rofl:




KGD

[andydo]

I've been doing salsa for about 6 years now and modern jive for about 8 years.

If you're starting salsa I'd recommend looking around some different classes assuming you've got the chance. Don't assume that all salsa classes and instructors are going to be the same. There is a much wider variation in the standard of salsa teaching and in the way salsa classes are structured than you'll find in modern jive where virtually everyone is following the same model which has been honed to be beginner friendly. Of course it might not be possible to make a choice between different classes depending on where you live, but I would have thought you'd have a choice of classes in South London. You may well be able to find somewhere more beginner friendly.

I'd agree that salsa is a more difficult dance to learn than modern jive. Firstly you need to master the basic footwork pattern, and secondly the music is less familiar so there can be problems in picking up the basic rhythm. However persistence should pay off. Finding a more beginner friendly environment should help, its no use going to somewhere where they only teach beginners for 40 minutes once a week and then all the beginners go home before the rest of the classes and the freestyle. As with any dance you need to keep repeating the basics in freestyle until they are automatic. It sounds like you're doing the right thing in hanging around and dancing after the beginners class though.

You have to remember that you are learning a new dance, it may be tempting to try to start doing your modern jive moves in salsa or to carry some modern jive habits into salsa, I've seen people do this and it generally just looks a mess. There is nothing worse than watching Ceroc style salsa. Pick up the styling and technique from salsa and then you can carry that into your jive, but don't try to do it the other way around.

Obviously you have a choice of styles in salsa. Probably UK cross body on 1 (also called New York style) is the most popular in the UK, then of course there is Cuban and the confusingly named and little danced On 2. I would say it matters less what style you do than what the environment you are dancing in is like. If there is a class that you get on with well and a good community of dancers then that is probably the one to go for. I started off doing Cuban, then learnt UK cross body on 1 / New York style later. Doing a mixture of different styles when you start would probably be confusing and not a good idea.

It can be hard learning salsa in the beginning especially if you have already learnt modern jive. Being a beginner again is ego-deflating and it takes persistence to keep going to salsa classes where you feel like a poor dancer when you can go to modern jive and feel like a good dancer. If you are a keen dancer though its probably going to be worth it because ultimately you are probably going to get frustrated with modern jive. Salsa is a more technical dance and the standard of the best dancers and instructors is much higher than you'll ever see in jive.

There are some negatives to the salsa scene though, it can be less friendly and the dance with anyone, never say no to a dance culture is perhaps not as widely established. It depends where you go though, some big salsa venues in London may be unfriendly, but smaller venues elsewhere in the UK are more likely to have a friendlier attitude.

I've seen a lot of people from jive start salsa over the years and very few have stuck with it. I think there are various reasons, as I said its difficult to go back to being a beginner again, the salsa scene where I live is smaller than the jive scene so the opportunities to go dancing are more limited, the environment was less beginner friendly, the people weren't committed enough and they found it less effort to get their dance fix by going back to jive.

So I'd say, see if you can find a better learning environment in your area. If not then just stick with it, it gets easier as long as you're persistent and keep practicing. Try to get some friends from jive starting along with you if you can, there is nothing better than some social support to help in the early days.

It's worth it.

[Lynn]

I started salsa before I was learning MJ (I had a couple of MJ lessons previous to that). I went to a very lively beginners class where the teacher really made learning fun and I went with a mixed group equal nos men and women so when we went to dances there were other beginners to dance with. What has put me off it is the venues, not the salsa dance itself, and also the attitudes of some of the dancers.

And as I have learned MJ I find that I now find the salsa music not as much fun as there doesn't seem to be the same variety as there is in MJ music (I esp love blues!). But several of our beginner MJ men also do salsa so when I am dancing with them I am getting led into salsa or merengue moves that seem to work fine in MJ. I still enjoy watching good salsa dancers and if you can go round different venues to find one with the teaching style that 'suits', then you can progress. One thing I would love to learn more of is La Rueda (group dance in a circle) as its a lot of fun, but there are always more than enough women to make up the numbers! :tears:


Have to say the MJ scene is far the most friendly of all the dance style scenes I have been involved in :yeah:

[latinlover]

Now that my eldest daughter has gone to university and is not around to babysit in the week, I too am starting salsa in an effort to improve my MJ and sustain interest.
I first went 2 years ago and gave up because I was bored with my three moves.My second daughter(not the one who does MJ) actually teaches salsa , but of course getting her to teach me is a no no.and my wife does salsa too,but I want to get to a level where we won't fight and I won't feel inadequate.
I have experienced all the points raised on this thread so it's very interesting to find that I am not the only one in these situations.

one thing I really like about salsa over most MJ venues though;salsa has a much more 'grown up ' attitude in that they don't close at midnight on a saturday!
yes it's more difficult to learn which I'm hoping should make the eventual achievement more worthwhile.I have come to the conclusion that it's vital to forget MJ and learn the basics thoroughly no matter how boring the process , because it is a grounding for all the rest to take off.I am trying not to bring the arrogant 'I can do MJ so I'll be able to pick it up really easy ' attitude.

I didn't have the problem of being refused -must be my boyish good looks and natural ability :whistle:
nothing to do with being the father of the teacher :wink:
the problem with being a beginner is that unlike MJ the tracks are really long so it can be a real ordeal if you only know three moves! :sick:
you must admit though ,done well it is really sexy! :clap:
I can't wait to be good enough to dance with my wife :worthy:

[Gadget]

I'd agree that salsa is a more difficult dance to learn than modern jive.
It's like saying it's more difficult to shoot a bow & arrow than a gun - anyone can pick up a gun and fire it; but both need skill, practice (and a steady hand) to hit the target every time.

You have to remember that you are learning a new dance, it may be tempting to try to start doing your modern jive moves in salsa or to carry some modern jive habits into salsa, I've seen people do this and it generally just looks a mess.
? Which habits? Moves can be carried across, they just need to be timed right so that they fit in with the footwork patterns - you can only turn a lady one way on beat 2 and another on beat 4.
Some of the more "swing" and 'lower' styling does not lend it's self to Salsa, but it's not the inclusion of MJ style that I think would be the problem, but the exclusion of Salsa style.


Obviously you have a choice of styles in salsa.
Curious: what's the difference between "new-york" and "cuban" styles?


If you are a keen dancer though its probably going to be worth it because ultimately you are probably going to get frustrated with modern jive. Salsa is a more technical dance and the standard of the best dancers and instructors is much higher than you'll ever see in jive.
I take issue with this statement: Why would you get "frustrated" with MJ? The only reason I can think on would be linked to your second statement - not being able to get instruction on how to improve. Now I don't claim to have a huge experience in Salsa teaching, but a bit more in MJ - a few things spring to mind that are wrong with this statement:
1) Salsa is a structured dance that has more "right" and "wrong"'s - you have a definite book that you can refer to and boundaries that define the dance. It must be easier to teach than MJ, therefore the level teachers can get to a higher level
2) Salsa has been in existence for a long time and has had decades of dancers to learn from and improve with; a larger core, a national dance, and much broader populous to get good teachers from.
3) MJ teaches concepts and ideas with some physical guidelines and movements to put them into practice. This is almost the opposite of most structured dances where the teaching is on the physical moves first, then the music second.
4) Salsa has a constant/regular rhythm throughout it's music that is the same range and almost the same sound - MJ can be danced to anything. It must be easier to teach when you know exactly where the skills will be applied. MJ has to teach a generic curriculum because it may be applied to any music.

There may, in the past, have been an issue with no "advanced" techniques being taught in MJ; I think that this has been/is being addressed and the quality/level of the dancers is increasing because there is more on offer to learn. Even the "best" dancers (who also teach) still take lessons and find ways to add/improve their MJ.


I've seen a lot of people from jive start salsa over the years and very few have stuck with it. I think there are various reasons,...
Nothing to do with your reasons; I stopped because a) I moved house and b) the music was getting boring. I think that people moved to Salsa from MJ because they felt that they were not being challenged any more and they could not improve their dancing by attending the same MJ lessons. When they reach the same level in Salsa, they find something else, or return to MJ with re-newed freshness and full of ideas to add into their dancing.

Sure; If you like the dance and you like the music, it's great. Very pleasing to watch good dancers. It will probably improve your dancing. I agree that it's worth taking it up - just don't expect to be a better Salsa dancer than you were MJ dancer.

[spindr]

It's like saying it's more difficult to shoot a bow & arrow than a gun - anyone can pick up a gun and fire it; but both need skill, practice (and a steady hand) to hit the target every time.

Well, you can carry over basic techniques: floorcraft, lead/follow, spinning, etc. Of course you have to keep the beat (your feet) moving in Salsa, you can't take a breather as easily as in MJ. Plus the music tends to be faster.


? Which habits? Moves can be carried across, they just need to be timed right so that they fit in with the footwork patterns - you can only turn a lady one way on beat 2 and another on beat 4.

Salsa moves tend to transfer back into the "shaggy mongrel" of modern jive quite well -- but not vice versa, e.g. try leading a Salsera into a first move and see what happens :)

In my limited experience on-1 salsa moves are based on 6 steps over 8 counts: 1,2,3,5,6,7 -- in general the 1,2,3 counts are preparation and the 5,6,7 counts are when you can lead the lady to turn. This is vastly different than MJ.


Some of the more "swing" and 'lower' styling does not lend it's self to Salsa, but it's not the inclusion of MJ style that I think would be the problem, but the exclusion of Salsa style.

Dunno' you can certainly put hip-hop styling into salsa -- a lot of the body isolations can be similar.


Curious: what's the difference between "new-york" and "cuban" styles?

One basic difference is that the first tends to be slotted, the other circular.


I take issue with this statement: Why would you get "frustrated" with MJ?

Don't know why anyone else might get frustrated -- I could certainly imagine getting bored -- "Oh look another first move variation".


Now I don't claim to have a huge experience in Salsa teaching, but a bit more in MJ - a few things spring to mind that are wrong with this statement:
1) Salsa is a structured dance that has more "right" and "wrong"'s - you have a definite book that you can refer to and boundaries that define the dance. It must be easier to teach than MJ, therefore the level teachers can get to a higher level.

It is true that some ballroom organisations like ISTD do offer a syllabus for salsa -- I've yet to meet a teacher that uses anything like it :)

Hmmm, not sure that it's necessarily easier to teach -- for one thing you would have to make sure that the class was dancing to your count before you start a routine, rather than just letting them "stand about".


2) Salsa has been in existence for a long time and has had decades of dancers to learn from and improve with; a larger core, a national dance, and much broader populous to get good teachers from.


3) MJ teaches concepts and ideas with some physical guidelines and movements to put them into practice. This is almost the opposite of most structured dances where the teaching is on the physical moves first, then the music second.

Maybe? Most MJ classes seem to be along the lines of "Here's the four moves we'll in the routine tonight" :) Not usually many "high-level" concepts.


4) Salsa has a constant/regular rhythm throughout it's music that is the same range and almost the same sound - MJ can be danced to anything. It must be easier to teach when you know exactly where the skills will be applied. MJ has to teach a generic curriculum because it may be applied to any music.

The 2/3 different organisations that I've had classes with tend to dance to music I can only describe as "cuban jazz" -- yes there's a regular beat, but sometimes it disappears while there's an instrumental solo, or even a fairly long "gap" -- not to mention that the beat can get hidden under other bits of percussion, etc.

SpinDr.

[Gus]

4) Salsa has a constant/regular rhythm throughout it's music that is the same range and almost the same sound - MJ can be danced to anything. It must be easier to teach when you know exactly where the skills will be applied. MJ has to teach a generic curriculum because it may be applied to any music.Sorry Gadget ... dont think I agree with this. Some Ceroc teachers quaified as teachers within 6 months of starting dancing ... I know at least one lass who was put forward after only 3 weeks of dancing! Know anyone who could become a competent Salsa instructor in such a short time? MJ must be the easiest dance form in which to become a teacher. This is no disrespect to all the great MJ teachers but where else could someone who can just about dance round a handbag become a 'Dance Teacher' within 6 months? I was at a dance event with 'proper' dance teachers ... people who had had to study at college for years to become teachers ... sort of puts you in your place.

[Gadget]

Some Ceroc teachers quaified as teachers within 6 months of starting dancing ... Know anyone who could become a competent Salsa instructor in such a short time?
I see your point, and agree with it to some extent: but wouldn't a competent person who went on a training course specifically for Salsa teaching be able to do the same thing?

The teaching of moves, anyone can do. Teaching you how to dance is what the better teachers do. Teaching how to dance to the music is what the best teachers do {IMHO} I don't think that it matters too much what discapline it's in; salsa, ballet, MJ...
The point I was tring to make is that since MJ is so varied, draws uppon so many other dance forms and can be applied to such a wide base of music, the teacher must be aware of a broader range of skills and movements than a specialist.
Perhaps it's "jack of all trades" vs "master craftsman"?

[Gadget]

In my limited experience on-1 salsa moves are based on 6 steps over 8 counts: 1,2,3,5,6,7 -- in general the 1,2,3 counts are preparation and the 5,6,7 counts are when you can lead the lady to turn. This is vastly different than MJ.
:worthy: I bow to your superior knowledge, but I still think that playing with the timing on MJ moves would enable them to be translated into Salsa moves.


Maybe? Most MJ classes seem to be along the lines of "Here's the four moves we'll in the routine tonight" :) Not usually many "high-level" concepts.
Perhaps not in the "basic" routine, but there are more hints of it in the "intermediate" routine, and lots of workshops. (I don't know is Salsa has the equivelent?)


yes there's a regular beat, but sometimes it disappears while there's an instrumental solo, or even a fairly long "gap" -- not to mention that the beat can get hidden under other bits of percussion, etc.
I often forget that others don't 'hear' music the same way as I do :blush:
Personally, I found that I could do Salsa steps to anything with a 4/4 beat (At the time, the Gorillaz was my favourite to practice to) and was confused at why there seemed so little contrast in the music played. It could have been the dj/venue.
I found that the first couple of tracks made you want to dance, then the next few got you into the swing of things, but at the end of the night they all blended into the one track and I was looking for something more interesting.

[latinlover]

:.....I found that the first couple of tracks made you want to dance, then the next few got you into the swing of things, but at the end of the night they all blended into the one track and I was looking for something more interesting.
:yeah:
It certainly seems that way to me at the moment, but I am assuming(hoping) that it will change once I have some skill & confidence and am able to improvise to the level I can in MJ
certainly my daughter who has been salsa-ing for 3 years can differentiate between tracks and artists and loves to dance to some and avoids others. she is equally obsessed as we are with MJ.
I'm hoping I can stick with it for long enough
I'm not giving up MJ though- I need to feel that I can do SOMETHING relatively well!!

[RogerR]

Salsa, Has to go past midnight cos the real latinos dont come til then. If you go with a real latino man he will likely be totally posessive of you and can become unpleasantly JELLOUS if you dance away. I worked for a salsa company for 8 years and all the trouble we had stemmed from two men fighting seriously over dancing with one woman.

MJ, little bits of several styles denatured and simplified til newcomers can think they've learned it in 6 beginners classes, How long does it take to become a teacher -- some teachers will never make the grade! some achieve it after much effort, I danced with Nina on her first outing to MJ by the end of the night she was better than anyone in the room inc the teachers

[Tiggerbabe]

don't close at midnight on a saturday!

Neither does Scotland :wink:
I've only done a tiny amount of salsa and never at a proper class - just clubs after parties :D but I'm afraid the music seemed too "samey" to me - there was some Salsa music played in the Latin Room at Southport and it hasn't changed my opinion :whistle: ( I "loved" the Latin Room up till this point :flower: )

[RogerR]

It helps if the DJ speaks latino spanish and has access to specialist stores Mr Bongo in london had a great latin section, HMV salsa comps dont really cut the mustard.

[Zuhal]

Thanks to everyone for sharing their experience. :cheers:

I have reined in my ambition and am learning a bit more slowly and more precisely. I can retain one move per class.
I still think that the lack of disipline from the teachers is a major handicap to learning. They teach one thing and call another. Then change the sequence because they haven't planned it properly. This from 5 different teachers in two different venues.


Once you "get" the syncopation, everthing else falls into place, but . . . please don't talk to me. I can not dance and talk. :flower:

Zuhal

[jivecat]

I still think that the lack of disipline from the teachers is a major handicap to learning. They teach one thing and call another. Then change the sequence because they haven't planned it properly.

Zuhal

This is one of the major reasons why I found salsa hard to learn. (Nothing at all to do with my 2 left feet :wink: ) I tried a number of classes but there were organisational problems such as a huge imbalance of ladies. Several were being taught by keen Latinos who could dance well but couldn't communicate the essential features of lead and follow very well. Eventually I found a class with a lovely teacher who was a brilliant dancer but again couldn't isolate the basic features of the dance and teach them systematically. He would show a short routine and then start to teach it and then say, "Oh, make that a double spin" to a class where most of the participants hadn't even got the basic footwork yet. I think he was just such a natural dancer himself that he didn't realise the gap he needed to bridge to get across the basics. Many of the students had not even listened much to Latin music which I think is a basic pre-requisite to dancing to it.

When I began to learn Ceroc I really appreciated the well-organised classes with clear and consistent explanation and demonstration. Presenting the information in small, achievable, incremental chunks is also an incredibly effective teaching tool. If I knew of a salsa class that used the same techniques I would be there like a shot.

[Lynn]

Presenting the information in small, achievable, incremental chunks is also an incredibly effective teaching tool. If I knew of a salsa class that used the same techniques I would be there like a shot. The beginners salsa class I used to go to did that, and when I ran an 'introduction to salsa' night for friends (who might not have ventured along to a class otherwise) I got that teacher along as I could be sure he would teach something achievable.

(I noticed in an email today that he was billed as 'NI's best salsa teacher'...
in an email he wrote himself! :wink: )

[andydo]

>> I still think that playing with the timing on MJ moves would enable them to be translated into Salsa moves.

I would advise anyone trying to learn salsa not to attempt to translate their MJ moves into Salsa moves. If you're learning another dance style then concentrate on what you are being taught and learn what the conventions of that style are. If you don't do this then its going to take you longer to learn. Once you've learnt the new dance style then perhaps its a different matter.

>> what's the difference between "new-york" and "cuban" styles?

As already said, new-york (or cross body, or uk style or london style) as its commonly done here in the UK is danced in a slot. It tends to be more focused on techique and looks a bit flashier with more in the way of multiple spins being done in moves.

Cuban style is more of a circular dance, the moves are generally less techically difficult although there can also be some rather complex arm bending involved. There is probably more emphasis on body movement and it's perhaps rather more playful and earthier in nature when compared with new-york.

Even a basic move like a cross body (new york) / dile que no (cuban) is very different in feel between the two styles.

> Why would you get "frustrated"

Personally I find modern jive frustrating because I find the average modern jive venu is only catering for beginner to intermediate dancers in terms of the teaching, the structure of the evening and the music being played.

> I still think that the lack of discipline from the teachers is a major handicap to learning.

Agreed. There are some good salsa teachers who teach in a more structured way. I never had one when I started though so I can identify with this problem. Find another teacher if you can.

A few people have mentioned problems with liking the music. Well obviously if you don't like the music the dance is never really going to be for you. Do try to give it a chance however, if you're not used to hearing salsa then give yourself some time before you decide you don't like it. The music may sound all the same at the beginning but you'll be able to differentiate it more the more you hear it.

[Gadget]

>> I still think that playing with the timing on MJ moves would enable them to be translated into Salsa moves.

I would advise anyone trying to learn salsa not to attempt to translate their MJ moves into Salsa moves. If you're learning another dance style then concentrate on what you are being taught and learn what the conventions of that style are. If you don't do this then its going to take you longer to learn. Once you've learnt the new dance style then perhaps its a different matter.
Do you ever stop learning? Where can you draw the line and say "yes, now I can addapt moves and create 'new' ones"?

Personally I find modern jive frustrating because I find the average modern jive venu is only catering for beginner to intermediate dancers in terms of the teaching, the structure of the evening and the music being played.
So you are an "advanced" dancer then, and don't get anything out of a MJ evening other than dancing?
- I thought that MJ was an expression of a love of dancing; where's the problem in going out of an evening to dance?
- Most/all "advanced" dancers I know can get something out of any night they attend, no matter what level it's pitched at.


Do try to give (the music) a chance however, if you're not used to hearing salsa then give yourself some time before you decide you don't like it. The music may sound all the same at the beginning but you'll be able to differentiate it more the more you hear it.
:D hmmm... I could say that about any form of music; acid house, thrash metal, classical, easy listening, jazz,... to some it's just noise. Most comments about Salsa music have been that it makes you want to dance - just that most tracks sound similar and the impact of that first track is lost by the fifth or sixth. It's not a matter of "like" or "dislike"; it just seems repetative (especially when compared to the diverse nature of MJ music)

[jivecat]

hmmm... I could say that about any form of music; acid house, thrash metal, classical, easy listening, jazz,... to some it's just noise. Most comments about Salsa music have been that it makes you want to dance - just that most tracks sound similar and the impact of that first track is lost by the fifth or sixth. It's not a matter of "like" or "dislike"; it just seems repetative (especially when compared to the diverse nature of MJ music)

But Latin-American music is also very diverse, it just takes a bit of practice to start hearing all the differences. I'm no expert, but I can often hear the difference between salsa, merengue and cumbia rhythms, for example and have some appreciation of what makes a song sound urban and contemporary or folky. Latinos would have a much more sophisticated appreciation of those features, in much the same way that anyone on this forum could instantly tell the difference between, say, C&W, traditional folk, heavy metal and disco. And many of the sub-divisions within those extremely broad categories, too.
To the untrained ear all new types of music will sound featureless and repetitive at first. For myself, salsa starts by making me want to dance... and carries on making me want to dance. If only I could!

[David Franklin]

A few people have mentioned problems with liking the music. Well obviously if you don't like the music the dance is never really going to be for you. Do try to give it a chance however, if you're not used to hearing salsa then give yourself some time before you decide you don't like it. The music may sound all the same at the beginning but you'll be able to differentiate it more the more you hear it.Disclaimer first - I'm in the "can't get into the music" camp on Salsa.

But I've seen a lot of salsa cabarets on the 'net, and it seems a lot of routines don't use salsa music (or use something else for the first minute or so, then break into salsa). Those that do use salsa tend to use the same 3 or 4 songs an awful lot. I'm left feeling most of the performers don't feel there are many memorable salsa tracks either.

Dave

[Lynn]

It's not a matter of "like" or "dislike"; it just seems repetative (especially when compared to the diverse nature of MJ music) :yeah: I can hear the difference in different tracks, eg salsa or merengue... thats really a case of familiarity with the music (I'm not as good as my neighbour who listened to my salsa CD and could tell me the country each track was from etc...but he is Peruvian!). But no matter how diverse the music is within itself, it doesn't compare to the breadth of music you can jive to. I like salsa music, and I enjoy watching good salsa dancers. But from what I have seen 'good dancer' seems to equal - 'can do more complicated moves' - not 'interpreting the music better'.

Talking to a friend last night who is improver salsa (dancing about a year) , but has done a only a little bit of jive (maybe 6 classes). He noticed that there didn't seem to be as much room for musical interpretation in salsa. (I have to add that he was at Peter's blues workshop which has clearly given him a taste for a broader range of music! :worthy: )

Salsa music did have the 'makes me want to dance' effect on me, until I learned MJ... But that's just my personal taste, I'm not saying one is 'better' than the other.

[spindr]

Shamelessly culled from another place (http://www.salsamafia.com:8080/yabbee/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=1300)



RICHARD AND JUDY Tropicana World Salsa Dance Championships 2004

Hey Guys- Richard and Jusy are showing this event on their show tonight @ 5.30, Channel4.
I wonder how Richards cross body is?!


SpinDr.

[Zuhal]

Do you ever stop learning? Where can you draw the line and say "yes, now I can addapt moves and create 'new' ones"?

So you are an "advanced" dancer then, and don't get anything out of a MJ evening other than dancing?
- I thought that MJ was an expression of a love of dancing; where's the problem in going out of an evening to dance?
- Most/all "advanced" dancers I know can get something out of any night they attend, no matter what level it's pitched at.


:D hmmm... I could say that about any form of music; acid house, thrash metal, classical, easy listening, jazz,... to some it's just noise. Most comments about Salsa music have been that it makes you want to dance - just that most tracks sound similar and the impact of that first track is lost by the fifth or sixth. It's not a matter of "like" or "dislike"; it just seems repetative (especially when compared to the diverse nature of MJ music)

I absolutely endorse Andydo's point about not mixing moves. While you are learning they need to be kept separate because the timimg works slightly differently for each style Even and when you have a command of both dances then there is no reason why one dance can not influence the other.

I also understand exactly what he is saying about how frustrating a MJ night can seem sometimes. ( PLEASE NOTE the "CAN" & "SOMETIMES")
Amusing yourself and leading beginners is very laudable but if, on a class night, you only manage a few dances at MJ that have challenged you and your musical interetation then it is interesting to seek a challenge in an alternative dance style. I do see the reason for such pedantry

As had been said elsewhere the more you listen the more you hear and understand the rhythms and texture in a new type of music. It may seem repetitive to you but a Salsa affectionardo may well be very keen on a track just because it has a particularly variation that allows him to insert his signature move.

Rep to Andydo
I don't do neg rep on principle but in this case because Gadgets's retaliatory fire would destroy me. :D


Zuhal

[MartinHarper]

Gadgets's retaliatory fire would destroy me

Few forumites give retaliatory neg rep, in my experience - I'd be very surprised if Gadget was one of them.

----

Back on topic - if taking MJ moves into Salsa is likely to cause problems, what about taking Salsa moves into MJ? Anyone tried that out?

[Gus]

Back on topic - if taking MJ moves into Salsa is likely to cause problems, what about taking Salsa moves into MJ? Anyone tried that out?Seems to be obligatory ... most of the 'new' moves I've seen over the last year seem to have been assimilated from either salsa or Tango.

[bigdjiver]

Peter Phillips AKA Lounge Lizard is trying to incorporate a Salsa feel into Blues dancing. (Peter, Please correct if I misrepresent) I had the same problem with the footwork that he taught at the Jook Jive workshop as I had with Salsa lessons, but got close enough to recognise that the idea has a lot of promise. Despite my lack of skill I had enough success in attempting to lead my version of it on Monday to believe that it is workable, ie leadable. However I have to report that the majority of my partners were sceptical of the new footwork. However the variations I learned using the Manhatten steps met with 100% approval.
I have tried more Salsa'ish leads to the Latin tracks, and they are followed and seem to work well, though there are a few dubious, but not anti, expressions from partners.

[Gadget]

I absolutely endorse Andydo's point about not mixing moves.
So do I - while you are learning. My point is that a move is a move; your lead moves from a to b to c and the lady correspondingly moves from a to b to c. It is only the salsa timing and footwork that prevents a MJ move going into Salsa. (I have teken a few Salsa moves into MJ without much bastardisation :D)

... if, on a class night, you only manage a few dances at MJ that have challenged you and your musical interetation then it is interesting to seek a challenge in an alternative dance style.
It is always interesting to see what an alternative dance style can offer. But have you explored all that MJ can offer? :devil:


As had been said elsewhere the more you listen the more you hear and understand the rhythms and texture in a new type of music.
:yeah: no argument, but it takes a lot more effort and perseverance than differentiating between "pop" and "blues" - compiled with the effort of learning a new dance; is it worth it? I would say only if you are converted into a Salseralo and abandon MJ as just a "begginer's dance" with no class or style. (but then I'm bias :D)

[Lynn]

Peter Phillips AKA Lounge Lizard is trying to incorporate a Salsa feel into Blues dancing. When Peter did his blues workshop over here several of the dancers had never danced MJ but were experienced salsa dancers. Peter knew this and so incorporated some salsa leads into some of the moves he taught, which worked very well with the group we had.


what about taking Salsa moves into MJ? Anyone tried that out?
At some of our recent evenings I have had dances with some of our beginner guys who are doing about one MJ move and then 3 salsa moves! I'm trying to encourage them to put more jive moves in so that they are practicing them, but am just following where they are leading. Quite often it starts out as a beginner jive move but they forget halfway through and it turns into a salsa move!

[andydo]

I think that the main point in learning salsa should be for the experience of learning a new dance style. You may end up carrying salsa style or moves over into modern jive, but if this was all you wanted then you could probably manage that without the hassle of learning salsa anyway. A lot of people recognise the salsa influence in my jiving, but its not salsa but just some fairly simple stuff - some manhattans, a bit more cuban motion and moves which I think are more suited to latin music.

Regarding the comments about musical interpretation, I would say its very different in salsa. Probably more difficult than in jive, in my opinion. I have seen some great examples though which I wish I could emulate, but I'm not anywhere near there yet.

[Lynn]

Regarding the comments about musical interpretation...I have seen some great examples... I think that's the problem, I haven't seen any! But there isn't much in the way of 'advanced' salsa here so that might be why.

I too would find some salsa influences coming through into my jive but not consciously, just maybe more 'wiggle' :wink:

[Gadget]

Quite often it starts out as a beginner jive move but they forget halfway through and it turns into a salsa move!
Curious; how can you tell? Unless they "reset" to the 'ballroom' stance and so moves from there: Actually, that was one of the things I found that made Salsa easier - you do a move and re-set to ballroom, and do a move, and reset, and so on: you could just 'salsa' for a few bars untill inspiration struck for another move. MJ is constantly changing.

...You may end up carrying salsa style or moves over into modern jive...
I carried accross a better awareness of movement and my partner's movement; it taught me to move rather than stand and move the lady round me. Style? perhaps a little bit of hip snaking like Lynn. {well, perhaps not like Lynn's :blush:}

[Lynn]

Curious; how can you tell? Unless they "reset" to the 'ballroom' stance and so moves from there I know which MJ moves they know, mostly the basic moves so I know when it becomes a salsa move...If I didn't know which MJ moves they knew and what they had been learning in salsa I maybe wouldn't be able to tell. (And they are moves that they have been taught in salsa to start eg from a R-R hold not from the 'ballroom' hold.)

Eg they start out leading a catapult, then when I'm behind them they pass my right hand into their left instead of taking my left with their left - its probably an MJ move as well, but they have learned it in salsa. Or they do an MJ move that has a spin, but don't let go so it becomes a turn. (Are there many free spins in salsa?) And that salsa move where the man turns the lady, but blocks the turn with his hand on her shoulder and turns her the other way, then blocks again etc. I don't mind, but I want them to practice the MJ moves as well!

[Gordon J Pownall]

Salsa is a more technical dance and the standard of the best dancers and instructors is much higher than you'll ever see in jive.

(Gordon recovers from a fit of sneezing, wheezing and coughing...)


Sorry about that (wipes nose) - It's just that, (clears throat) I am allergic to


bullsh*t...

[spindr]

(Gordon recovers from a fit of sneezing, wheezing and coughing...)

Well in the spirit of academic interest Gordon, who are your top Jive dancers and your top Salsa ones?

SpinDr.

P.S. If you need a hint to get you going for the Salsa ones, start with Iris DeBrito (http://www.irisdebrito.com/).

[Gordon J Pownall]

It's not so much is Fred (the salsa dancer) better than Phil (the Jiver) (all names relate to people who died in 1220BC...)

My argument was that to make a sweeping statement that Salsa...higher standard....etc etc, isn't justifiable under these circumstances...

How do you measure better or higher standard...???

When was the last time salsa and jive went head to head...?

Does the salsa class down the road turn out better dancers / teachers etc than the MJ Club in the next village...???

It's all subjective........that is why the statement above was not really justifiable.....

Answers on a post card......???

[spindr]

My argument was that to make a sweeping statement that Salsa...higher standard....etc etc, isn't justifiable under these circumstances...

Ah, I hadn't realised it was a philosophical objection, rather than a factual one :)


How do you measure better or higher standard...???

Personally, I wouldn't -- but then I wouldn't necessarily have implied that they were "equal" either, which is what your previous post hinted at.

I just tend to think of them as different.

Mind you -- I've never heard anyone style the trajectory of a lady's arm before (in a class) when it's thrown in to the air (think Hallelujah, but stylish?) -- and then style the hand and fingers as well :)


When was the last time salsa and jive went head to head...?

Now there's an idea...


Does the salsa class down the road turn out better dancers / teachers etc than the MJ Club in the next village...???

Different question? Luckily Iris (http://www.irisdebrito.com) teaches at my "local" class at Littleton near Winchester (http://www.justdance.net) -- of course at least from a personal perspective I must count as a severe handicap to being "turned out" as a better dancer than one from the MJ club in the next village (http://www.danceyourselfdizzy.com).


It's all subjective........that is why the statement above was not really justifiable.....

Answers on a post card......???

Or on the forum :)

SpinDr.

[Gordon J Pownall]

Personally, I wouldn't -- but then I wouldn't necessarily have implied that they were "equal" either, which is what your previous post hinted at.
SpinDr.

OOOhhh I so did not.....

Like you - just different and very, very subjective........


:cheers:

[bigdjiver]

... Mind you -- I've never heard anyone style the trajectory of a lady's arm before (in a class) when it's thrown in to the air (think Hallelujah, but stylish?) -- and then style the hand and fingers as well :) ... I am not sure what this refers to. FWIW Michaella of Ceroc Central regularly styles the ladies "spare" arm in beginners and intermediate classes.

[spindr]

I am not sure what this refers to. FWIW Michaella of Ceroc Central regularly styles the ladies "spare" arm in beginners and intermediate classes.

Well, the specific comment was related to move where the guy leads the lady's hand by "throwing it upwards" (the closest basic jive move is a one-handed version of an Hallelujah [Overhead Change, etc.]).

The lady's styling that I remember (since I was concentrating on lead, etc.) for that fragment seemed to be that the hand/arm shouldn't just lift and drop in a sort of up/down motion but that the hand should slow down and hover slightly at the top and float down heel of hand first like a feather in a sort of stretched-S-curve rather than falling straight down under gravity like a stone. Oh and wiggle fingers slightly while the hand's dropping -- sort of fanciful raindrop effect. And of course the lady should keep the footwork going with a syncopated cha-cha like hip-isolation. And that's just one bit of one step.

SpinDr.

[Gordon J Pownall]

The lady's styling that I remember (since I was concentrating on lead, etc.) for that fragment seemed to be that the hand/arm shouldn't just lift and drop in a sort of up/down motion but that the hand should slow down and hover slightly at the top and float down heel of hand first like a feather in a sort of stretched-S-curve rather than falling straight down under gravity like a stone. SpinDr.

Ladies of Michaela's classes are easily spotted at many dance venues with their arms out to the side in various poses..... :flower:

Their male partners are also easily spotted - they are the ones sporting black eyes and teeth missing from impact with outstretched lady arms.... :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :what:

[spindr]

Their male partners are also easily spotted - they are the ones sporting black eyes and teeth missing from impact with outstretched lady arms.... :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :what:

Well, there was a comment on Monday that the ladies should watch their hands as they style them behind or to the side -- to avoid this issue.

And to be honest apart from the safety issue it also draws attention to the fact the hand's moving and styling -- otherwise (to me) it can look "disconnected" -- and of course once the hand's safely arrived stylishly, the lady can get back to the more important job of gazing admiringly at the man :)

SpinDr.

[MartinHarper]

The other day, someone was trying to tell me that the standard of athleticism in international football was much higher than in extreme ironing. Clearly this is bullshxt - and it's a good job he came to me so that I could set him straight. After all, how do you measure a higher or better standard? In metres? I think not! When was the last time you saw David Beckham take on Frinkle Wee? Does the football club down the road turn out whiter whites than the extreme ironers in the next village? It's all subjective. He didn't have a single scientific study to back up his claim. That's why his opinion was just not justifiable.

[Gadget]

Eg they start out leading a catapult, then when I'm behind them they pass my right hand into their left instead of taking my left with their left
...Or they do an MJ move that has a spin, but don't let go so it becomes a turn.
...And that salsa move where the man turns the lady, but blocks the turn with his hand on her shoulder and turns her the other way, then blocks again etc.
:D All three variations are ones that I have learned from MJ (and do on a fairly regular basis); not saying they wern't stolen from Salsa in the first place, but definetly translate well enough.

The lady's styling that I remember...
Was this from Salsa or MJ? The last workshop that I attended where Lilly as teaching, she most definetly styled the spare arm (in fact a good portion of that workshop was devoted to it.) Lisa (Aberdeen teacher) regularly trys to introduce styling elements. Most Salsa stylings I have seen have been more from observation rather than teaching.

[bigdjiver]

Ladies of Michaela's classes are easily spotted at many dance venues with their arms out to the side in various poses..... :flower:

Their male partners are also easily spotted - they are the ones sporting black eyes and teeth missing from impact with outstretched lady arms.... :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :what:I have been clobbered twice, both times trying to do fast double spin. I do not know of anybody else having a problem.

[spindr]

Was this from Salsa or MJ? The last workshop that I attended ...

This was my regular Monday night salsa class (http://www.justdance.net) -- the styling isn't an "add-on" it's part of the dance.

SpinDr.

[Lynn]

:D All three variations are ones that I have learned from MJ (and do on a fairly regular basis); not saying they wern't stolen from Salsa in the first place, but definetly translate well enough. Yes, they are all variations or very similar moves, like I said I only know they are from salsa class because we no longer have MJ classes. And wherever they are from, they work fine.

[philsmove]

http://gizmo222.superprovider.de/funvideos/060504/cindy-salsa_NEW.wmv

Quick have a look before the internet police delete it sorry no MJ yet