Intro of New Categories.

[Keith]

Hi guys,
IÕve been watching with interest the comments re changing or introducing new categories to the competition/s.
We had similar comments after our comp in Blackpool and that is why we introduced the Veterans category (This is nothing to do with solders from Nam by the way!).
As this is obviously a great way to shape compÕs of the future, could people making the suggestions please think them through. I am definitely not having a go at anybody, as I truly believe this is the way forward, but as an example:
A teachers category just for teachers; Who are they, if you have taught for 6 weeks, you will not go up against the likes of Victor etc, therefore do we have a supper teacher cat? If they have a teachers own cat, then what do we do with their cat? Does this become an Advanced for non-teachers, if so who will be allowed in it? I.e 3 years or more, experienced dancers? How do we police it, do we get letters off their teachers? Will this mean the Intermediate cat, becomes 3 years dancing or less? How is this policed, maybe a letter off their parents (Being pedantic now) & if this is the case do we have an absolute beginners category? Finally with all these catÕs would you feel the competition has suddenly become too diluted & too longwinded?
Your competition had 5 categories, it now has 8. Shall we drop the freestyle maybe????
Food for thought.
Please, please, please, send how your ideas can be policed & think about the knock on effect it may have.
Sorry if this upsets anybody, :tears: but if we are going to help you get what you want, we need more help.
Keith

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Keith
...but as an example:
A teachers category just for teachers; Who are they, ...
That one was mine; not perhaps thought through as far as you have, but here was my process:-
Have a category for those who were excuded. Teachers were excluded. Therefore have a category for them.
Reading the other posts however, I think that it would be better if this category was not exclusive for those excluded, but open for everyone. And I really like the idea of the spectators determining the result.

[Keith]

Hi Gadg,
I can only see one prob, if the audience vote for the winners;
How would you feel, as a professional, whose career/reputation to a degree, may rest on the results of this competition, when the people voting have varying degrees of dance experience, i.e 2 months to 10 years say, along with people being coerced into voting for particular people, or the local entrants, having 2/3rds of audience behind them, no mater what they do wrong or right!
In any dance competition you normally work on a points system, from 3 criteriaÕs, Musical Interpretation, Technical merit etc. How many of the audience do you believe would know how to break this down.
I honestly don't believe teachers would risk their reputations, by letting an audience loose on them.
It could be the equivalent of asking a Rangers supporter to vote for a Celtic player as Player of the season, above one of their own!
What do you think?
Keith
:cheers:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Keith
How would you feel, as a professional, whose career/reputation to a degree, may rest on the results of this competition,
You mean how would you prevent rigging or home advantage ?
If you knew the scoring system for the cat. before hand {ie on the entry}, then it's your decision to put your fate in the hands of the mob.
Preventing bias voting would be hard if you didn't trust the audience. Personally, from my (all be it limited) experiance, I think that people would vote for the best dancer on the night, even if it meant that they were voting against someone they dance with every night in there club. I hope I'm not being too nieve :innocent:
Perhaps exclude people who attend the same night regularly as one of the finalists from voting for them ? Difficult to police.


In any dance competition you normally work on a points system, from 3 criteriaÕs, Musical Interpretation, Technical merit etc. How many of the audience do you believe would know how to break this down.
I was thinking perhaps on simple ballot forms with 1-5 for each criteria, but I discarded that thought due to the time it would take to count them up.
...How about being given coloured balls on entering, putting the relevant ball into the voting hole ? Too easy to lose them.
..."Stand here for A, B..." ? Too easy to be swayed by peer pressure.
...select a DJ for interpritation, a teacher for Technical, a person from the audience, all random - collect the information on the entry form.
This is about the best I can think on just now


I honestly don't believe teachers would risk their reputations, by letting an audience loose on them.
This is a forum is it not? Any teachers care to respond ?

{you did ask what I thought...:grin:}

[Keith]

Cheers Gadg,
May be a little naive, :innocent: but I like your answers.
You only have to read the previous posts to see how people think & react to certain names, positively or negatively.
You can see the probs in policing some of the ideas being thrown in though?
The advanced cat in the Blackpool comp C2D is open to teachers & anyone confident enough to enter, but we still have similar problems, for people who do not, & rightly sometimes, feel they can compete against the Claytons etc of this world. This is one reason for the showcase, so the 'Aces' of the dance world can show their stuff here. But would it be fair to stop them entering the Advanced Cat.
We are then back to the same problems as discussed in the other posts. How do you police?
Ans on a post card please.
Keith
p.s is everyone else out there dancing, or scratching their heads for answers?

[Franck]

Originally posted by Keith
I can only see one prob, if the audience vote for the winners;
How would you feel, as a professional, whose career/reputation to a degree, may rest on the results of this competition, when the people voting have varying degrees of dance experience, i.e 2 months to 10 years say, along with people being coerced into voting for particular people, or the local entrants, having 2/3rds of audience behind them, no mater what they do wrong or right!I agree that in this case, audience voting would be an issue.
The way I see it though, is that it would make for a really exciting category if the result was decided on the day by the audience.
A bit like the viewers vote in Big Brother, or I'm a Celebrity, get me out of here... However, this category would have to be a fun / showcase style category, otherwise as you say, no serious dancers / teachers would want to risk their reputation!

As a teacher, since you asked :wink: I may be a bit unusual as I am not interested in competing (unless it is for fun, like the lucky dip etc...). I am also fully aware, that there are people in my classes that are better dancers than I am! I don't feel threatened by that, as I see it as a success in teaching... As someone else pointed out, there are many dancers who discovered Ceroc and turned it into an almost full time passion!
My passion is in teaching Ceroc and in spreading the word. The sort of comments that Alfie made in the Beginners forum:

To all beginners: Welcome to one of the greatest forms of fun in the world. I had never danced a step before we started dancing and it revolutionised our lives. Keep at it, but enjoy it too, once caught its a hard habit to breakis exactly what has kept me so motivated for the last 10 years, and no doubt for the next 30+ :nice:

As a result, my views colour the way I would like to see competitions (at least Ceroc ones :wink: ) grow!
As I pointed out before, above a certain level (currently called Advanced in most Competitions), all dancers are fabulous to, either, dance with or watch... Judging who is slightly above or below whom, is pretty pointless in my opinion. We would have more fun if all teachers cooperated and did a Showcase like at the last Ceroc Champs :waycool:

Franck.

[Keith]

Hi Franck,
CouldnÕt agree more, which again may sound strange coming from somebody who organises a competition!
I also do not enter, other than the Take a Chance type categories, I dance for fun.
However a competition by definition is to compete & I donÕt know how you compete on a completely friendly basis. Respectful yes, but if you enter a competition it is for a reason. The reason may be personal, i.e to push ones self that little bit further, it may be to see if you can get through just one round, or to proceed further than another dancer. I feel if you enter there must be some inspiring reason.
For this reason alone I feel it is virtually impossible to create a totally open & friendly competition, with lax rules, or rules difficult to police, if you truly wish to have a respected comp.
What you have is a great mix & works well, unfortunately if you, & I hope you do, grow in stature, then the competition will inevitably become more competitive.
The only way to help combat this may be to introduce the relaxed fun areas, like Take a Chance, & another etc, allowing you to keep the other areas more professional.
The other area I feel which helps, is as you did, & we do on the Friday before, have a fun night, This to me is the relaxed fun bit where all dancers participate, dancing with fellow dancers of varying standards, with no politics & no thought of the competition. Fun Fun Fun.
I also agree with what you say about teachers doing a showcase, like Ceroc, but I also feel it unfair to discriminate against those teachers who wish to participate, again whether to try & win outright, or to get through one round.
We sometimes forget teachers are only human & have the same dilemmas as the Intermediate dancers, they still have the same sort of intimidation, i.e how can I go against XYZ when I have only taught for 6 months etc.
Only my view :wink:
Keith
p.s. keep up the good work, fantastic event & people.
:cheers:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Keith
However a competition by definition is to compete & I donÕt know how you compete on a completely friendly basis. Respectful yes, but if you enter a competition it is for a reason. The reason may be personal, i.e to push ones self that little bit further, it may be to see if you can get through just one round, or to proceed further than another dancer. I feel if you enter there must be some inspiring reason.
For this reason alone I feel it is virtually impossible to create a totally open & friendly competition, with lax rules, or rules difficult to police, if you truly wish to have a respected comp. Oh, I totally agree! You need rules (the simpler the better though) and you need clarity and transparency for any competition. Otherwise, any fun you might build up during the event will be jeopardised by potential arguments.
You cannot dictate people's motivations for entering a competition, but you can steer the event towards good sportsman-ship and fun. It is all in the balance of categories.
I like you idea of an over 50 category, and this could be pushed further into new concepts. I hope you (we?) get more suggestions in this thread, as it would improve all events across the UK.
For example, how about a "Weird music" category, where competitors would be challenged to dance to a very unusual track / beat... and judged on how well they improvised and interpreted the track! This I would enter as a teacher, and would get great satisfaction from!
In fact people who attend the nights where I DJ would have a great advantage as I seem to submit them to weird music on a regular basis :wink:

Franck.

[Scot]

Well this is kind of developing legs

As this is the first competition I have ever organised my main criteria was to balance the wishes of the non-competing participants with those of the competing participants.

For me that meant there had to be a balance between their participation and that of people competing. My problem with other competitions to date is that the competing part has gone on for far too long with the result that your average freestyler or people eliminated in first rounds get bored.

It is vital that the momentum of the day be maintained and unfortunately the introduction of many more categories teachers or otherwise could possibly be detrimental.

However as I cannot claim to be an expert in this field I am open to suggestions for next years event with maybe one or two additional categories. Not sure about the over 50Õs seems a bit ageist to me.

Perhaps if we get opinions we can then put it to the vote. I will then go with the majority.

Keith sad as this may seem I have only ever been to Ceroc competitions so perhaps I will give yours a go this year. Maybe drop some leaflets off for the next Scottish one.

And Franck if you stopped using an apple computer it would not be so weird....

[Graham]

Originally posted by Keith
Hi Gadg,
I can only see one prob, if the audience vote for the winners;
How would you feel, as a professional, whose career/reputation to a degree, may rest on the results of this competition, when the people voting have varying degrees of dance experience, i.e 2 months to 10 years say, along with people being coerced into voting for particular people, or the local entrants, having 2/3rds of audience behind them, no mater what they do wrong or right!
In any dance competition you normally work on a points system, from 3 criteriaÕs, Musical Interpretation, Technical merit etc. How many of the audience do you believe would know how to break this down.
I honestly don't believe teachers would risk their reputations, by letting an audience loose on them.
It could be the equivalent of asking a Rangers supporter to vote for a Celtic player as Player of the season, above one of their own!
What do you think?
Keith
:cheers:
What I was thinking of was more a jury/panel than the whole audience. It would be relatively straightforward to instruct the jury on the scoring categories, and as I mentioned before, the highest/lowest votes could be discarded. The larger number on the panel (as against 3-4 judges), and the fact that any extreme votes wouldn't count, should mitigate against any blatant favouritism. Come to think of it, each entrant to this open category could nominate their own jury member, which would completely eliminate bias (okay not completely, but I don't particularly want to reveal how this system could still be rigged in case it gives someone ideas! :wink: )

Policing entries would probably have to be done like the parliamentary Register of Members' Interests - any exclusions would have to be explicitly listed on the entry form, and people would have to sign a declaration that they were not excluded. For example, if an exclusion was anyone who had received remuneration in excess of £100 from modern jive activities (teaching, performing etc), in the last 12 months, then people would have to declare that this was true. And the penalty for anyone caught lying could be not just disqualification from the competition in question, but a bar from entering in any category the next year (or longer).

I also think that Franck's idea of the entire audience voting is interesting, but I agree with Keith that perhaps this would need to be a special category separate from the top "open" category.

[Lorna]

Hello,

you wanted more input from the teachers, so I'll give it a go.

On a personal note I wouldn't want to compete in any cat except for the lucky dip type cats. I dance to enjoy and I would get too nervous if I was competing on a more serious level, the adrenalin rush would be too much, can you just imagine? I'm hyper enough!!

I think that a category for teachers or 'those who are excluded'
is fine. As a teacher you would know the standard that you would be up against, ie the V&L's of this world. If you feel that you can take the best on then yeh, have a go, but it would be a personal and informed choice to go for it. Who would judge this?
Well I reckon that it would have to be a panel of professional dancers, including experienced ceroc trained teachers and perhaps it would be an idea to have them trained in judging. Gosh where is the fun element in that? Well I can only assume that the people who would enter such a category are intent on winning and I feel that the judging should reflect this.

Would teachers be putting their reps on the line? Well again this is something which they would have to consider when entering. However, I don't feel that this is the case simply because, the best dancers on the day would win. Just because you don't hold that all important trophy at the end of the day does not mean that you performed rubbish, someone just happened to be better than you on that particular day. I reckon that most teachers would respect that.

Mt other reason in favour of a 'teacher's cat' is because I do not feel that it is fair for couples in the advanced cat to be competing against teachers. I do however, firmly, believe that not all ceroc teachers make the best dancers, we are fantastically trained teachers of ceroc but as far as style and musical interpretation goes, we are responsible for learning this ourselves. I feel that teachers should sit out of this cat and give their 'students'a go. The best thing about teaching is seeing the end product and I feel that we should be encouraging our dancers and supporting them, not competing against them.

As a teacher I feel responsible for passing on my knowledge, enthusiasm and commitment for the dance, and nothing gives me more of a buzz than seeing some of my dancers giving it their all out there.

I hope that wasn't too long winded for you gadge.

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

[DavidB]

Balance between competitions and freestyle
I'm not sure exactly what the non-competitors want. Do they just want to freestyle, do they want to watch every round, or do they just want to watch the finals. I suspect there is a mixture.

My personal feeling is that a competition is a once-a-year event for the promoter. Over the course of the year he will also have 100 or so classes, 12 monthly freestyles, and a couple of parties. Those that want purely freestyle have more than enough choice throughout the rest of the year, so I would expect the competition event to offer something different.

I like the split that most promoters have where the afternoon is more competitions, and the evening more freestyle. However I would prefer to have at least some of the finals in the evening. It's not just another freestyle event, so treat the finals as a cabaret. People are good enough now to make it worth watching, so why should the promoter hide them from everyone in the evening?

Professionals
One of the many aims of organising a competition is to get a lot of the best dancers from all over the country to turn up on the same day. If you want the good dancers to turn up, you have to give them something they can enter. You also don't want to scare off everyone else from entering.
Not everyone wants to put the time into preparing a showcase. And not everyone wants to run the risk of losing if they have won before. So I would suggest a Lucky Dip for professionals, and make it part of the evening's entertainment.
I would include in this category teachers (whether regular or occasional), people who get paid to do cabarets, previous showcase and advanced winners, and anyone who wants to enter. I wouldn't include taxi dancers, demonstrators, or anyone who has taken a class at the last minute due to illness etc.

Number of Divisions
I would like to see more divisions. A full list of possible divisions would be:
Beginners Freestyle, Intermediate Freestyle, Advanced Freestyle, Professional Freestyle, Under 18 Freestyle, Over 50 Freestyle, Showcase (ie choreographed jive/swing), Cabaret (anything other than jive/swing), Dance With A Stranger, Professional Dance With A Stranger, Double Trouble, Team

I don't think anyone has the time to run all these categories, so you have to pick and choose which ones you want.
Or you run two categories together, eg Beginners and Intermediate, and give an award for the top-placed couple from the 'lower' division.
Or you restrict people from entering too many divisions - eg showcase and freestyle.
Or you give yourselves more time. I would be surprised if the Blackpool competition in particular does not run over a whole weekend within a couple of years. (Not just a party on the night before, but workshops, competitions and freestyle on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.)

Judges
I like the idea of audience participation in the judging of a professional division. The more the 'fun' level of the competition, the greater this participation should be.
I also like the idea of an 'entertainer' award voted by the audience for the dancer that has provided the most entertainment at the event.

Policing Entries
(Horrible term, but I couldn't think of anything else.) I think you have to leave it up to the honesty of the individuals. People do enter the wrong category, but I don't think anyone does this deliberately.

David

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Scot
For me that meant there had to be a balance between their participation and that of people competing. My problem with other competitions to date is that the competing part has gone on for far too long with the result that your average freestyler or people eliminated in first rounds get bored.
From the feedback here, I would say you succeeded admirably. :waycool:

I can definitely see the point of wrapping up competition's and allowing more free-style. I think that Bill made a few point about letting people finish a song before eliminating them ~ Having never been to a dance competition I don't know the procedure, but I am presuming that people get a tap and asked to leave the floor?
How about reversing this and tapping those who get through to the next round to leave the floor ? This would give those who are eliminated a chance to continue to the end, while giving those who are through a bit of a breather. At the end of a song, the floor changes.
I can only see a problem in the judging with "Dam, I wish I had left A in instead of B!"



Originally posted by DavidB
However I would prefer to have at least some of the finals in the evening. It's not just another freestyle event, so treat the finals as a cabaret. People are good enough now to make it worth watching, so why should the promoter hide them from everyone in the evening?
I like this idea.


I don't think anyone has the time to run all these categories, so you have to pick and choose which ones you want.
Or you run two categories together, eg Beginners and Intermediate, and give an award for the top-placed couple from the 'lower' division.
Perhaps if you have specific judges looking for some of these sub-categories during the day's events; no matter what category they are dancing in, then get the opinions on a short-list from the main judges. ?


Originally posted by Lorna
As a teacher I feel responsible for passing on my knowledge, enthusiasm and commitment for the dance, and nothing gives me more of a buzz than seeing some of my dancers giving it their all out there.
I hope that wasn't too long winded for you gadge.
I'm sure that you can take pride in the volume and quality of people from Aberdeen who went to the Champs. and take it as proof that at least some of your knowledge, enthusiasm and commitment has rubbed off on us. :wink: {not that type of rubbing Bill!:devil::innocent:}


(And just so I'm not seen as knowing nout about competitions in general, I have partnered in running a few Scottish Fencing competitions. Weird sport - fencers pay to compete for a medal and spectators get in for free.)

[Keith]

Well Gadge,
You are ahead of your time.;)
We C2D, introduced the 'Tap on the Shoulder' for the dancer who qualifies for the next round & not to be eliminated, for the reasons you gave.
Keep those proposals coming; it took us 2 years to come up with that idea!:sorry

Keith

[Grant]

After reading other contributions I'd like to suggest just having one initial category. The judges could select from the first round who is to go into the open / advanced section with everyone else going into an intermediate / plate section. The first 3 couples in the advanced and the winners of the intermediate looked to me to have trained for big competitions whereas most of the intermediates appeared to be mainly social dancers who could well have been in their first comp. It should not be difficult for the judges to work out which is which. Straight away we eliminate the problem of people entering the wrong category for whatever reason and the difficulty of making and policing rules. Might be tough on those who just make the cut for the advanced but no system is perfect. And this would also give everyone a chance to dance twice.
Personally I would have liked to see the winners of the intermediate section in the advanced section anyway because that was where I thought they belonged. This is not sour grapes on my part (I didn't actually enter) but just a desire to see how they would have gone against the others of their level who were all in the advanced.
Perhaps this idea has been tried before and has not worked. Please let me know - I'm sure you all will anyway.

Grant

PS Thumbs down for audience selection of the winner except as an additional 'crowd pleaser' award for the advanced section. It is just too open to local bias.

[Wendy]

Whooooaaa !! This is all getting a bit Come Dancing for me !!!

CEROC is fun remember ????

Here's a way to judge great dancers - dance with them !!!

What about having secret dancers (a bit like secret shoppers ??)- say 5 male/female judges who dance freestyle with the competitors and give them marks without them knowing who's judging :wink:

That way we would all have fun and it would still be a competition.

Aren't the best dancers the ones who are the best to dance WITH rather than the ones who put on the best SHOW ???

And I like the idea of different types of music categories rather than level. (Up close and personal / Club ??? / R & R / Swing / Chocolate :wink: etc .)

Wx

[Heather]

:confused: :confused: Chocolate!!?????:confused: :confused:
Please enlighten me ? I've just had a box sent from the cChocolate Tasting Club (www.chocs.com ) for any chocoholics out there. But 'chocolate' as a type of music/dance style :confused: :confused:
:cheers:
Heather

[denise]

OOps sorry to pop into this discussion but I think its simple!! Have a category for all who wish to participate i.e open so that those entering will know who they are up against ie the best, including teachers. This cat. will evidently be the most serious one and its puely a personal choice. If its titles they want then let them have it. Teachers wishing to participate for fun can enter the lucky as suggested. Those entering other cat. ie advanced/intermediate will be doing it purely for personal satisfaction and enjoyment. Again its a personal choice as to which cat, they want to choose. I dont feel that a time limit is needed. Let those competing be the judge of which cat. they wish to enter.
I have to say that competing against people you know and have danced with is one of the many positive things about competitions. I certainly found it less competitive knowing that i had friends dancing alongside me.
Only one more cat. needed!! Simple???:nice: :D :D

Denise

[denise]

Dont think audience judging is a good idea. You have to have some faith in those who have the experience. If they wish to be unfair in their marking, they'll soon hear about it!! and im sure they wont want bad press!!:wink: :wink:
Denise

[Heather]

:wink: By the way I meant to say, I totally agree with the 'Come dancing' comment, Ceroc is meant to be fun, the dancing is more important than the competition!!!
I like your idea for the 'Secret Judges', but they would all be exhausted !!!!!!
:cheers:
Heather

[denise]

Maybe it would be a good idea to say that anyone winning a cat. must move up to the next cat. the following year in order to give others a chance. I see this as being fair. Obviously the advanced is the highest but if people really want to be serious then they can go for the 'open' . Simple again!!!:D
Denise

[Wendy]

(We need a wee blushing /bashful face Franck !!! :wink: )

OK strictly speaking it's not a style / category/ type of music etc - it's more of a well... connection... harmony ... thing that happens. A kind of Haggen Daas thing... or a Magnum ice cream thing.... a cappuccino with just the right amount of coffee/milk/froth/chocolate/cinnamon .... a buttery Chardonnay ... a perfect moment when the music is just right... the styles of the dancers complement each other.... there is chemistry .... you know.... all that stuff !!!

I suppose you can have chocolate moments with all styles of music and all styles of partner. What's chocolate for me (a bit jazzy a bit bluesy a bit Peggy Lee) might be coffee for someone else, or wine or steak or .... whatever... a cat's got the milk kind of moment.... Jeez one Scots Champs and I'm away ...

Wx

[Gadget]

Originally posted by denise
Maybe it would be a good idea to say that anyone winning a cat. must move up to the next cat. the following year in order to give others a chance.
I thought that this was the way it worked already ? If not, I wholey agree that it should be!
If you have won a beginner's, you can't compete in it again; same with intermediate - after you have won that, you can only compete in 'Open' competitions.

As to the whole "Com Dancing" theme; it should be fun, but the whole point of competitions is for the dancers to compete! Party's are for just dancing and showing off. Both should be fun to participate in and fun to watch.

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Wendy

it's more of a well... connection... harmony ... thing that happens. A kind of Haggen Daas thing... or a Magnum ice cream thing.... a cappuccino with just the right amount of coffee/milk/froth/chocolate/cinnamon .... a buttery Chardonnay ... a perfect moment when the music is just right...



:D Ah Yes Sunday mmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!:yum: :yum: :yum:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
If you have won a beginner's, you can't compete in it again; same with intermediate - after you have won that, you can only compete in 'Open' competitions.Well - yes and no. What if someone entered a small competition just before Blackpool to get a bit of experience, and won. Would they then have to move up at Blackpool? They might not even be able to change their entry - the next division may be full.

I think you should not be able to enter the same division if you won it the previous year. And if you have won a big national competition (ie Blackpool or Ceroc Champs, or the old LeJive one) then you should definitely have to move up.
it should be fun, but the whole point of competitions is for the dancers to compete! Party's are for just dancing and showing off. Both should be fun to participate in and fun to watch.You are right - a competition has to provide a fun atmosphere for the majority, and a competitive arena for a minority.
There are only a handful of couples who take it seriously. They put in a lot of effort to produce a performance for you to enjoy, and they are paying for the privilege of performing it for you. I don't understand why anyone would want to discourage them from entering.
By all means separate them from the 99% of entries who see a competition as a different way to have fun. But they will give you a show that would cost a lot of money to put on any other way.


Originally posted by Wendy
Here's a way to judge great dancers - dance with them !!!I agree. But it is an interesting point - if the way a leader/follower feels to their partner is so important, then why do you see so many style workshops, and hardly any technique ones?

And I like the 'secret judges' idea, but I think it works better at a club level - giving an award at the end of the year for the favourite man and lady??? I don't think the 'secret judges' could dance with enough people on one night

David

[Grant]

Originally posted by DavidB

There are only a handful of couples who take it seriously. They put in a lot of effort to produce a performance for you to enjoy, and they are paying for the privilege of performing it for you. I don't understand why anyone would want to discourage them from entering.
By all means separate them from the 99% of entries who see a competition as a different way to have fun. But they will give you a show that would cost a lot of money to put on any other way.

David I totally agree with this - it is what I was trying to say in my earlier posting. Let the best compete against each other and show us how good they are. Let the rest have fun taking part in their own category.
I still think the only fair way to divide the two groups is for the judges to do it on the day based on what they can see. It eliminates the need for rules which can never fit all situations. It also makes it easier for competitors who currently have to decide for themselves which category they are in. Some are bound to enter the wrong category.
I don't think there should be any more categories because I think Scott had a pretty good balance of competition and freestyle. Those not competing or knocked out early are still dancers and will get itchy feet sitting around all afternoon watching others dancing. And some competitors were in all 4 categories and were understandably a little tired by the end. How would they feel after doing 6 categories?

Grant

[Bill]

Originally posted by Keith
Hi Gadg,
I can only see one prob, if the audience vote for the winners;
How would you feel, as a professional, whose career/reputation to a degree, may rest on the results of this competition, when the people voting have varying degrees of dance experience, i.e 2 months to 10 years say, Well as Gus is away I'll take on his role...... :p I've heard the same comment made about other dance events where some of the advanced dancers are 'better'/more experienced than some of the judges. At Blackpool you have some of the best dancers around so that doesn't really happen but in other events the 'judges' actually get very little or no training - a clip board and told what to look for !


I honestly don't believe teachers would risk their reputations, by letting an audience loose on them.
It could be the equivalent of asking a Rangers supporter to vote for a Celtic player as Player of the season, above one of their own! But...............:wink:.....there is every chance of bias in any judging system ! You can see from the audience reaction from Sunday how much they liked James and Lynn and Elliot. If it had been an audience vote they would probably have won anyway ! I've mentioned in an earlier thread that judges should be asked to declare an interest if they have taught/tutored/trained any competitor they are judging. Can a judge be absolutely unbiased if they have privately tutored a dancer ??? :confused:

And of course each judge has their own preference for style so there's some degree of bias there anway and of course there's the familiarity issue. Many of the judges at Blackpool already know the 'normal' Advanced finalists and so know what they are capable of so there is always a chance that they will judge on what they know a couple can do rather than what they are actually doing on the day.

However, the same can be said of the idea of having the audience judge. Many of the folk there on Sunday will have seen me and Fran dance before but not a few of the others - is that an advantage? :confused: :really:

I think the remarkable thing about Sunday is that no-one is disputing the decisions which says a great deal for the judging ! Well I did have one gripe about the Intermediate finalists but not bad for a whole day !

Now can I stir up anything else while Gus is having fun in NZ
:grin: :wink:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Keith
Cheers Gadg,
This is one reason for the showcase, so the 'Aces' of the dance world can show their stuff here. But would it be fair to stop them entering the Advanced Cat.
We are then back to the same problems as discussed in the other posts. How do you police?
Ans on a post card please.
Keith
p.s is everyone else out there dancing, or scratching their heads for answers? As others have said, it's unfortunate that there has to be a degree of 'policing' at comps and maybe the idea of the Open comp as at Blackpool is the only answer but as has also been said there is still a huge gap between most dancers who decide to enter the Advanced/Open level and the very best dancers such as Clayton & Jenine (sp) and the other 4/5 couples who regularly reach the final of major comps. This is why there is such a debate about an additional level for the 'cream' of dancers which in turn would encourage more current 'Intermediate' dancers to make the jump up to 'Advanced'.

This may not be a problem for most of the dancers who do enter more for fun rather than any expectation of winning. But if a couple want to get through a few rounds is it better to go into the Intermediate or just hope they can dance at their best and scrape through at least one round???

The issue of who is / is not a teacher raised its head on Sunday as it has for a few months now but there's the issue of age amongst others. James indicated that his new partner is under 18 so couldn't compete on Sunday - so if there's an over 50 cat. should there be an under 18???? Or if an under 18 enters should he/she be disqualified ? ( well it has happened at both major comps :sick: )

You can tell I'm still on holiday eh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:innocent: :cheers:

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Grant
I don't think there should be any more categories because I think Scott had a pretty good balance of competition and freestyle. Those not competing or knocked out early are still dancers and will get itchy feet sitting around all afternoon watching others dancing. Grant Yes, of course you're right, you need to get a balance of freestyle and competition. But, just for the record, I actually don't mind sitting around watching others dance at a competition - mostly because, on a normal Ceroc night, you never have the chance to look at anyone else dancing. And, at a competition, you've got so many fantastic dancers to watch.

Last year's Ceroc championships was the first competion I'd ever been to - I didn't compete at all (didn't even dare to try the lucky dip in case I severely disappointed my allocated partner - though I may pluck up the courage another time). So I spent a lot of time just watching others competing and it was great. My only criticism of the Hammersmith venue was that there was so little room for spectators. I gather Blackpool is much better for this and I'll definitely try to make it there next year. And, best of all, I love what you did in Scotland with the Friday and Saturday parties - for me, that would be perfect: I could get my fill of dancing on those nights and then just enjoy watching everyone else on the Sunday.
Rachel

[Bill]

Originally posted by Rachel
I gather Blackpool is much better for this and I'll definitely try to make it there next year. And, best of all, I love what you did in Scotland with the Friday and Saturday parties - for me, that would be perfect: I could get my fill of dancing on those nights and then just enjoy watching everyone else on the Sunday.
Rachel You'll really enjoy Blackpool Rachel. It has far more room and you can actually sit with friends and see what's going on rather then fight for a spot where you can just about see a fraction of the dance floor:what:

And the FRiday night dance is good fun and a nice way to meet other dancers. And of course you should enter for the Lucky Dip at least. :p

London is still good but I think I had about 6 freestyle dances - just too busy and potentially dangerous for me :sick:

[Franck]

Originally posted by bill foreman
Well as Gus is away I'll take on his role...... :pPlease don't feel that you have to :wink: I quite enjoyed a controversy free week :nice:

I think the remarkable thing about Sunday is that no-one is disputing the decisions which says a great deal for the judging ! My views on judging are close to yours, there will always be bias of some sort, judges are only human after all. The only way to avoid reflecting the bias in the result, is to have a sufficient number of judges, that way once the scores are put together, the extremes cancel each other out.
The main difference in judging at the Scottish Comp (vs the Ceroc Champs) is that instead of each judge picking their top 3 couples in any heat, judges had to assess and mark each couple (treble or team) on 4 or 5 different criteria (technique, style, originality, fun, presentation, rapport, etc...). All the marks were then compiled with weighing allocated to each criteria varying with the type of competition. For example, technique was highly weighed in the Advanced section, but fun and rapport were more important in the Lucky Dip!

That system meant that each couple was judged independently and (slightly) more fairly.

The only problem we had on Sunday, is that there was little time to mark / assess each couple during one song, but all the judges worked very hard and delivered. :nice:

Franck.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Rachel
I actually don't mind sitting around watching others dance at a competition - mostly because, on a normal Ceroc night, you never have the chance to look at anyone else dancing. And, at a competition, you've got so many fantastic dancers to watch.Don't get me wrong Rachel - the chance to watch fantastic dancers was a big part of the reason I went.
I just thought it was good that the rest of us had a chance to get up and dance between rounds. :nice:

And it gave the busier competitors a break to catch their breath, change costumes, grab a bite to eat etc.

:cheers:

Grant

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Grant
Don't get me wrong Rachel - the chance to watch fantastic dancers was a big part of the reason I went.
I just thought it was good that the rest of us had a chance to get up and dance between rounds.

And it gave the busier competitors a break to catch their breath, change costumes, grab a bite to eat etc.What, you mean they expect to eat and rest, as well?!!!
Originally posted by bill foreman
You'll really enjoy Blackpool Rachel. It has far more room and you can actually sit with friends and see what's going on rather then fight for a spot where you can just about see a fraction of the dance floor:what:Can't wait for it! We've actually got the video for last year's Blackpool cos that was Marc's first competition, where he was competing with Donna Van Roose, and the whole event just looks amazing!

I may consider the lucky dip next year, but I'm just so terrified of the person I'm dancing with thinking, 'Oh no, why did I have to get HER??' I know it's supposed to be a fun category, but ... (maybe I'm just paranoid!)

I don't think I'd have a hope in hell of getting through even the first round of an intermediate category. My dancing's not exactly great, and, apart from anything else, I'd be so nervous, I'd mess it all up. Christ, I can't even remember how to walk properly if I think I'm being watched, let alone dance!
Rachel

[Bill]

Originally posted by Rachel
What, you mean they expect to eat and rest, as wellWell it would have been nice !!!!!!! :rolleyes: - I did come back at least once with the wrong outfit on and had to dash back to change so from my own selfish point of view a bit longer between categories would have been nice :rolleyes: :sorry :p
I may consider the lucky dip next year, but I'm just so terrified of the person I'm dancing with thinking, 'Oh no, why did I have to get HER??' I know it's supposed to be a fun category, but ... (maybe I'm just paranoid!) Yes you are being paranoid!!! :wink: :nice: For all you know you could end up with a man who had been dancing for a week !
And if he's experienced he'll be able to lead you through a song. And it is about fun. Even more so than the other categories so take a breath, get on the floor and just HAVE FUN :D

And look forward to meeting you then..... or before !

[Graham]

Originally posted by Rachel
I may consider the lucky dip next year, but I'm just so terrified of the person I'm dancing with thinking, 'Oh no, why did I have to get HER??' I know it's supposed to be a fun category, but ... (maybe I'm just paranoid!)
You're just paranoid. :wink: I haven't been to Blackpool, but certainly on Sunday there were worse dancers than you in the lucky dip (not my partner, by the way, just from observation). In any case I agree with the point made in various posts that it all comes down to rapport - it makes far more of a difference whether you click with your partner than how technically/artistically good you are.


Originally posted by Rachel
I don't think I'd have a hope in hell of getting through even the first round of an intermediate category. My dancing's not exactly great, and, apart from anything else, I'd be so nervous, I'd mess it all up. Christ, I can't even remember how to walk properly if I think I'm being watched, let alone dance!
Rachel
Again I think it comes down to rapport. Looking at Sheena and Elliot for example, it certainly seemed that they (she! :wink: ) were just enjoying it so much it didn't really matter that there was an audience.

[Graham]

Originally posted by bill foreman
Well it would have been nice !!!!!!! :rolleyes: - I did come back at least once with the wrong outfit on and had to dash back to change so from my own selfish point of view a bit longer between categories would have been nice :rolleyes: :sorry :p
You obviously need a PA, Bill. I don't think you would have too much trouble finding applicants for the post. :wink:

[sexyjiver]

I entered the intermediate competition in Blackpool this year. I thought my experience of 6 years doing Ceroc would stand me in good stead, but I just froze. My partner was brilliant and she managed to get me to move my feet, but it was all over by then. I thought I was a little bit of an extrovert but this was totally different to strutting my stuff a couple of times a week.

Would I do it again. Probable not, I will enjoy watching next time

[Bill]

Originally posted by sexyjiver
I entered the intermediate competition in Blackpool this year. I thought my experience of 6 years doing Ceroc would stand me in good stead, but I just froze. My partner was brilliant and she managed to get me to move my feet, but it was all over by then. I thought I was a little bit of an extrovert but this was totally different to strutting my stuff a couple of times a week.No how you feel SJ ! I still feel like that but learing how to cope but first time I went to LOndn all the moves I'd practiced went right out of my head and I ended doing a series of very basic beginner's moves. Funnily I remembered all the moves after the comp was over !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Would I do it again. Probable not, I will enjoy watching next time Give it another go ! Once you get going it can be fun.though I do wonder soemtimes why on earth I put myself through it all:sick:

I have the Blackpool video so I'll have to look out for you. What did you have on ? Maybe see you there in March.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by bill foreman
Once you get going it can be fun.
Exactly!! :D

I can't believe how much fun i had competing for the first time on Sunday. I was ok until about 5 minutes before the comp then i was a complete wreck! :sick:
Once the first round of lucky dip was over though i couldn't keep the smile of my face. That was me hyper until the intermediate finals...then i died. I probably shouldn't have danced so much in the freestyles sessions and tried to conserve my energy for later on but i couldn't stop...i was on a high :D:D

Will definately be in Blackpool and most definately be competeing again! I had a great time :D

filthycute x x

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Graham
... there were worse dancers than you in the lucky dip Oh... thanks, Graham - that makes me feel a whole lot better! Think I'll stick to watching at Blackpool!

[Graham]

Originally posted by Rachel
Oh... thanks, Graham - that makes me feel a whole lot better! Think I'll stick to watching at Blackpool!

:sorry Sorry Rachel - just reread my post and realised that it didn't really come across as intended. What I meant to say was that you were easily a good enough dancer to hold your own in the competition. :grin:

Anyway, when are you coming back to Glasgow so I can grovel in person? :wink:

[Grant]

Originally posted by Graham

I haven't been to Blackpool, but certainly on Sunday there were worse dancers than you in the lucky dip

Graham,
Not only did you manage to insult Rachel, but also many of the dancers in the lucky dip on Sunday.

All of the people who were unfortunate enough not to get past the first round (ahem yes I was one of them :sad: :tears: ) will also be expecting a full apology and some serious grovelling!!:reallymad :reallymad

Grant

PS - Just kidding. I know how easy it is for postings to have meanings you didn't intend.:grin:

[Graham]

Originally posted by Grant


Graham,
Not only did you manage to insult Rachel, but also many of the dancers in the lucky dip on Sunday.

All of the people who were unfortunate enough not to get past the first round (ahem yes I was one of them :sad: :tears: ) will also be expecting a full apology and some serious grovelling!!:reallymad :reallymad


:what: :sorry Let me unreservedly apologise to anyone I have unintentionally insulted, at any time, ever...[grovel]

Oh, sod that :wink:

Actually, it would only be insulting if you thought being "worse than Rachel" was some kind of poor standard - which of course it isn't, as I was originally unsuccessfully trying to convey :grin:

And just to be clear, I was also (quite rightly) summarily ejected from the lucky dip after the first round, so should I be grovelling to myself? :confused:

OK. Double-checked for insults :nice: . I wonder whose hate-list I've managed to get on this time? :wink:

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Graham


:sorry Sorry Rachel - just reread my post and realised that it didn't really come across as intended. What I meant to say was that you were easily a good enough dancer to hold your own in the competition. :grin:

Anyway, when are you coming back to Glasgow so I can grovel in person? :wink: Ok Graham ... apology accepted and I'm smiling again now. But don't even begin to think that lets you off the grovelling!!!

Make sure you come and get me for a dance when I next see you ...
Rachel

[sexyjiver]

Hi keith, we talked on Thursday at Bowden about a dirty dancing section. You are probably correct about it being a speciality dance and not for everyone.
On the question of local support for local dancers. I was at the last chance to dance competition where all the winners in all the categories were from down south. That didn't go down very well with 95% of the people watching, who were from up north. I am sure the crowd would have voted differently if they had had the chance to do so, even if the people who won, deserved to do so on their dance ability.
Keep up the brilliant work

Jonathan

[Grant]

Originally posted by Graham


so should I be grovelling to myself? :confused:



Could you give us a demo on Wednesday? I'd like to see how you do that!:D :D

:cheers:

Grant

[Bill]

Originally posted by sexyjiver
Hi keith, we talked on Thursday at Bowden about a dirty dancing section. You are probably correct about it being a speciality dance and not for everyone.

If you have one then let me know !!!!!!!!]:D :wink:

On the question of local support for local dancers. I was at the last chance to dance competition where all the winners in all the categories were from down south. That didn't go down very well with 95% of the people watching, who were from up north. I am sure the crowd would have voted differently if they had had the chance to do so, even if the people who won, deserved to do so on their dance ability.
Jonathan Well that might be the case but it's amazing how fair the crowd can be. At the Scottish Comp both the winning couples ( Int & Advanced) received a great reception and however much the 'locals' might have wanted two Scots to win I htink they would have voted the same way !


Maybe winners are from the south because that's where most of the good dancers are :confused: :rolleyes: ...........or could it be that some judges are from down south and more familiar with those dancers ( well not much from Gus so someone's got to stir things !:D :wink: ).

[DavidB]

Originally posted by sexyjiver
I was at the last chance to dance competition where all the winners in all the categories were from down south. Australia is down south even for Londoners.


Originally posted by bill foreman
... and however much the 'locals' might have wanted two Scots to win ...If I went to any competition in Scotland, and the crowd didn't want the Scottish entries to win, I'd think I was in the wrong country!


Maybe winners are from the south because that's where most of the good dancers areI don't think you really believe that. There might be some very good dancers down south, but we don't have a monopoly on them.

(There was talk last year of establishing raiding parties to kidnap any good dancers from the north and bring them to London. The plan fell apart when the organisers realised they would have to venture outside of the M25...)


or could it be that some judges are from down south and more familiar with those dancersI think familiarity might help in the heats, especially if the judges have very little time to assess each couple. Of course a northern judge would be more familiar with the northern dancers...

David

[Keith]

could it be that some judges are from down south and more familiar with those dancers.

On a serious note we have 1 Northern Judge, with what you can class as 6 Southern Judges.
The 6 southern Judges, were chosen due to their experience, expertise & reputations.
The Southern Judges are also from all over the South & mix, to a large degree in different dance circles.
We had a lot of complimentary remarks, concerning the judging last year, other than the Double Trouble & the reason for that, was due to the girls, who danced fantastically well, did not show a definite lead & follow, which is obviously the hardest part of this particular dance. I'm sure if you ask Bill he will be able to advise in this area. All I know is I can't control 1 girl, never mind 2!!:what: :wink:
A lot of the dance teachers in the North either haven't danced as long as, or havenÕt got the same credentials & experience as our present judges.
This does not however mean we would not consider changing any one of them, but why fix something; we feel does not need fixing.
As stated, IÕm not sure how far South, Australia is, I suppose it depends upon which way you are flying? But IÕm sure John Sweeney & Bill do not consider themselves Southerners, along with Fiona & Vinnie Devin, nor would George from the Red Hot Chilli Jivers. This does however leave the Take a Chance & Intermediate catÕs & at the end of the day, they did drive a long way!
Cheers :D :cheers:
Keith

[Bill]

Originally posted by Keith
We had a lot of complimentary remarks, concerning the judging last year, other than the Double Trouble & the reason for that, was due to the girls, who danced fantastically well, did not show a definite lead & follow, which is obviously the hardest part of this particular dance. I'm sure if you ask Bill he will be able to advise in this area. All I know is I can't control 1 girl, never mind 2!!:what: :wink:
Cheers :D :cheers:
Keith I certainly didn't have any complaints with the decisions - although I did feel one of the advanced couples who were not in the top three should have come second. But with any judging system there will be disagreement.

I can't control 2 women..............I just danc with two women who look great and dance wonderfully so that I can stand there and pretend I know what I'm doing.....and if you don't beleive me just ask the girls :sick: :D

On one serious note................ like any competition regardless of the judging criteria - and I've heard this said about ice skating - there is always the chance ( perhaps no more than that) that some judges are so familiar with the 'top' competitors that before the competition starts they have a good idea of who will compete and who is likely to win. I know that tehre are several excellent couples down south who compete a lot and who dance in the same venues - and often with some of the judges. So there could be a question mark over how unbiased anyone can be.

And it's not just the judges !:what: At the Scottish comp I realised I was looking at the couples I expected to do well because I knew most of the dancers already.

The one thing I've said before is that perhaps all judges shoudl be asked to declare an 'interest' in a couple if they have been involved in teaching or certainly 'training' any of the dances in a competition. At least if they declare it no-one can claim there was any bias. If it's not declared but people know it happens there will be chance of disquiet.

But I'm looking forward to Blackpool again and looks as if there will be hundreds of Scots thee this year!:D :wink:

[sexyjiver]

sorry Bill, did you say there would be hundreds of Scottish entries in the next chance2dance competition? It is bad enough when us north west dancers are competing against the southerners, but we would stand no chance against the brilliant Scots. (lots of creeping. We are hoping to come to your 10th birthday bash). Looking forward to seeing the usual bunch from up your end at the next Pwllheli weekend in May.

Jonathan

[Keith]

Hi Jonathan,
Couldn't agree more.
The competitions getting better & better.
Will it end up more like the Internationals?
We only need the Irish now, although Ray did put up a brave fight last year.
Don't forget your banners, as the Welsh upstaged everybody last year, taking control of a quarter of the seating, plastering their flags all over!

Keith:wink:

[Bill]

Originally posted by sexyjiver
. We are hoping to come to your 10th birthday bash).

Look forward to seeing you and any of your 'band' who make it ! :D :p

Looking forward to seeing the usual bunch from up your end at the next Pwllheli weekend in May.

Jonathan Ehm......... :sorry :sick: whose end are you referring to ??? I've never mad it down that way but would love to as I've heard it's great fun. Hope everything is good up your end as well then :wink: :eek:

[Gadget]

Inspired by the talk of handcuffs etc in other post {Inspired !? poss wrong choice of phrase :wink: }

How about a category to include props like a scarf or hat ? Perhaps this is venturing into the showcase cat. again...

Can't stop thinking on how to involve handcuffs in a dance now; I'm sure that a few ladies would come up with some origional ideas ~ esp if Elliot was their partner. :what: :grin:

[CJ]

Worry not, gadget...... Rachel will asort you out. She APPEARS to know of these things.

[Gus]

Time to enter this debate

Disclaimer: Sorry .. not taken time to read the 6 pages of previous posts ... White water rafting and cold beers bekon (not neccesarily in that order ... on second thoughts, maybe definitely in that order)

From my own limited perspective ... I can see no reason why teachers should not be in the same category as advanced ... because they ARE advanced dancers ... methinks this has the blinding weight of logic. If you are not an advanced dancer then don't compete against advanced dancers ... go in the intermediate section ... again this seems a SBO (statement of the Blindingly Obvious).

In all the recent competitions ... there has NOT been a great gap betwen the local advanced dancers and the winners, even at Blackpool. True, Clayton/Myers are ahead ... but they are catchable. The folowing pack is also well within grasp of the likes of Bill/Fran and dancers in the NWest. On what authority do I say that ... well 12 months ago I reckoned that, despite being a teacher, my dance standard was about good intermediate at best. 6 months ago (mostly due to the wonderful style of my partner Helen), we missed 3rd place in the Advanced section of the UK Open by 1 point ... ahead of the likes of Raymond, Sherif etc.

Thats is NOT to say I reckon we are any better ... just that on that day with those judges we got more points.

The next point is that if we can do it, so can most people ... its just a case of working at it ... OK... maybe a bit more to it than that but if you get a partner with whom you feel your styles meld and you get enough timne to dance together ... then competing in the Advanced section is a real possibility.

So .... I my humble opinion , advanced section should be open to ALL advanced dancers ... and those that think the existing advanced dancers are too good have two choices .... either put in the same amount of hardwork as the current advanced dancers ... or enter intermediate section. Is that fair?

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Worry not, gadget...... Rachel will asort you out. She APPEARS to know of these things. Says WHO?? Just for that, CJ, I would be tempted to make your handcuffs spike- rather than fur-lined!

Speaking of other props, though - I find myself both intrigued and excited by the thought of Scot's vibrating ducks... I want one!!

[CJ]

as long as ther cuffs match my underwear. (i.e. with the spikes on the inside:grin: ) fine by me.

Er, who's leading?

[Dreadful Scathe]

I agree with Gus on this - Advanced is something to aspire too I think - Id like to be that good and would be expecting to compete against the best if I ever did enter an advanced catagory. Should be open to anyone.

Another idea - they could introduce seeding like tennis...wonder if Andrei Agasi (sp?) can dance ? hmm

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Another idea - they could introduce seeding like tennis
When people are competing against each other, one on one, then seeding works; but when you have to judge from a group of people, how would you do it ?
You could use some sort of scoring mechanism (or seeding) to decide the level of the competitor and which competition to enter them into?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
they could introduce seeding like tennis...They have seeding in some big Ballroom competitions. It is something like the top 24 from the previous year get a bye for the first two heats. The other 250 couples go into the first round. When modern jive competitions are big enough to need this, Keith can decide the seedings from the comfort of his Ferrari...
wonder if Andre Agassi can dance?More importantly what about Anna Kournikova...


Some other ideas
You can only enter one category with the same partner. So if you enter showcase with your regular partner, you have to find a different partner for the advanced.

An England vs Scotland fun team match - eg dancing wearing flippers, piggyback dancing, etc. (Could also be Jive vs Lindy, or Glasgow vs Dundee, or teachers vs taxis etc.)

David

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by DavidB


An England vs Scotland fun team match - eg dancing wearing flippers, piggyback dancing, etc. David

Dancing with Scottish team having hands tied behind back :)


you knoooow im joking :)

[John S]

Well, we've now had suggestions for handcuffs, spikes, rubber flippers and bondage, to say nothing of the partner on the back position!

Looks like the sheltered life I've led so far at Ceroc is about to come to an end (please don't comment on whose ....)