Who's fault?

[jivecat]

Having spent the first few years of jiving mumbling apologies every time I messed up I eventually began to encounter those gentlemanly souls who assured me that, no matter what, it is ALWAYS the man's fault. Naturally, I'm usually ready to agree with this.

But, what about that extremely common error, the failure to catch hands smoothly & accurately, or the letting go of hands at the wrong moment. This can really interrupt the flow of what would otherwise be a good dance and seems to me to be an easily avoidable mistake. But seeing as the instant of hand-catching has to be a mutual effort i.e. the man has to offer but the lady needs to accept, how can it always be the man's fault if it is bungled?

[Lory]

But, what about that extremely common error, the failure to catch hands smoothly & accurately, or the letting go of hands at the wrong moment. This can really interrupt the flow of what would otherwise be a good dance and seems to me to be an easily avoidable mistake. But seeing as the instant of hand-catching has to be a mutual effort i.e. the man has to offer but the lady needs to accept, how can it always be the man's fault if it is bungled?
Aww, for me, this is the moment when the dance starts to be fun, a good excuse for a laugh, (that's if you have the right partner, who's up for a giggle)shimmy, walk off in the opposit direction, look at your hand in discust, give it a quick blow, rub your hands together and come back with avengance! :wink: :rofl:

[ChrisA]

But, what about that extremely common error, the failure to catch hands smoothly & accurately, or the letting go of hands at the wrong moment. This can really interrupt the flow of what would otherwise be a good dance and seems to me to be an easily avoidable mistake. But seeing as the instant of hand-catching has to be a mutual effort i.e. the man has to offer but the lady needs to accept, how can it always be the man's fault if it is bungled?

Well, I think this comes into the category of the guy's responsibility as well :waycool:

I think that the "guys offer, ladies accept" thing leaves a lot not understood - anything that relies on split-second hand/eye coordination from two people at the same time is very easy to bungle, so I prefer not to do it that way.

Take the basket, for example, or most other moves that start with a two hand hold. It's usually taught with the guy stepping back L-R, offering the right hand which the lady accepts with her left. All very well when everyone's expecting it, but very easy to bungle in the darkness of freestyle.

Instead, think of a travelling return first... easily led just with the L-R hold to start with, but now think of the guy running his hand down the lady's arm starting more or less from her shoulder, as she passes in front of him with her back to him. But now the guy can easily find her hand since (usually :eek: ) it's on the end of that arm.

There's no need for a catch, awkward or otherwise, since the hand is right there, and the guy can just take it just before he ends up facing her again - it feels smooth and effortless, which it is. And there are lots of other instances where preparation like this can remove the need for a catch.

Now the other thing is, if the lady dances with her hands at waist level, or thereabouts, it make it very easy for the guy to just take them. He needs to be watching, and preparing early enough for taking the hand to be smooth and not a last-second grab, but that comes with practice. Catching R-R, for instance after a spin, is very difficult to do as a joint effort, since the lady is moving away from the hand that will be catching her. But if she holds her hand steady as she spins, the guy can see it going past and take it, in time to provide a gentle and progressive tension prior to whatever comes next.

Apart from this, in general (assuming the hold is light and pain-free anyway) I would suggest the following rules of thumb (pun intended :D )...

- don't let go unless he does

- don't hold on if he lets go

And most importantly, if the hold gets separated, there should never be one of those frantic attempts at grabbing - you know, where each person goes for where they think the other person's hand is, but both miss because the hand has moved by the time they get there, and this carries on for several cycles and feels very awkward. If the ladies just hold their hand in a convenient place, at waist level as I described above, the guy can just take it and it's very easy to reconnect.

HTH,
Chris

[TheTramp]

Fault??

Okie.... when I'm dancing with ladies - especially beginner ladies, I quite often say that it's always the mans fault - a little bit of reassurance that I'm not holding them to 'blame' if things go wrong.

My real feeling (like Lory) however, is that if things go wrong, it's no-one's fault. Just one of those things. Time for a quick smile or laugh, maybe a bit of 'play-acting', and then get on with the dancing. After all, we're not (usually) being marked, and are just there to have fun.

This is a 'no-blame' culture, right?? :D

Having said that, I'm in complete agreement with everything that Chris has said :D

Trampy

[Yliander]

Instead, think of a travelling return first... easily led just with the L-R hold to start with, but now think of the guy running his hand down the lady's arm starting more or less from her shoulder, as she passes in front of him with her back to him. But now the guy can easily find her hand since (usually :eek: ) it's on the end of that arm. :yeah: this is generally the way these types are lead here - the other big advantage of this method is that the when I feel the guys hand on my shoulder it is a very early sign that I am not just going to be doing a straight return and that the guy will be picking up my hand.

[Gadget]

I think that the "guys offer, ladies accept" thing leaves a lot not understood - anything that relies on split-second hand/eye coordination from two people at the same time is very easy to bungle, so I prefer not to do it that way.
:yeah:

As with Chris, I tend to take the upper arm/elbow and slide down to the hand.
With experianced ladies I normally don't miss a catch unless the lady is hamming it up or does a double/tripple/... turn - in all cases, this becomes part of the dance, and the movement I would have caught on becomes something else. Often I/we then play for a few beats with visual/no lead untill the hand is (offered/)taken again.
With begginer ladies who relese early or haven't got a hand where I expect it to be, generally my hand still follows the same path and we air-dance for a beat or two; it adds to the dance rather than subtracts from it.

How to catch? Experance and practice. The lady's hand should want to rest about waist level and if it's not where I left it, it will be returning there. On spins and turns, normally my fingers are about elbow height and the lady will feel them before the catch - I think that a lot of ladys use this as re-assurance and confirmation of where the hand will be.

Another thing I tend to do is go with the momentum of the lady's hand for the catch - slow breaking rather than an emergancy stop.

A good practice in learning how to catch is to try and lead with your eyes closed: spins and collection of hands become much more interesting (I normally lead a few ladys in the begginers class with my eyes closed - just trying to get the "paths" right and timing/movement to match what's in my head.)

[Yliander]

A good practice in learning how to catch is to try and lead with your eyes closed: spins and collection of hands become much more interesting (I normally lead a few ladys in the begginers class with my eyes closed - just trying to get the "paths" right and timing/movement to match what's in my head.) can be a bit dangerous in Freestyle me thinks!! :rofl: this is also a good exercise for followers to use - you have to focus on the sutble things the leader does rather than just relying on visual signals also forces the Leader to employ all their leading techniquies not just visual signals

[Minnie M]

Too tired to read all the posts - sorry - will come back and read them properly later when I have woken up properly

Roger Chin has the right recipe, whenever you miss his lead, for whatever the reason is, he makes light of it by smiling or laughing, thus making it part of the enjoyment of the dance - respect Roger :worthy:

BTW thanks for ab fab dance last night - twas amaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazing :hug:

[MartinHarper]

it is ALWAYS the man's fault

I heard a variation of that saying: "it is always the leader's fault". IE: if my partner starts leading herself, then all bets are off. :) The other variation is "It is always my fault", because it's always easier to change myself than to change other dancers. Still, all these things are more advice than scientific fact.

[Magic Hans]

Who's fault???

Easy that one!!!!

Whoever makes a fuss!

As an Australian teacher from Southport said from a pep talk for an Olympics choreography ..... if partner fouls up .... help them get back on track!

A good lead will be able to improvise when his/her follow does something unexpected .... similarly with the follow .... keep moving to the music ... get yerselves back on track!!! ...it's no big deal!

[Minnie M]

As an Australian teacher from Southport...........

Am I reading this right :confused:

Are you Australian ? Or did I miss something from Mark Harding in Southport ? Or have I got this wrong as well :o

[jivecat]

Fault??

This is a 'no-blame' culture, right?? :D


Trampy

Point taken, Trampy. In practice, laughing about it and trying again is what always happens. I wouldn't be seeking to dish out blame points right there in the middle of the dance floor. :rolleyes:

But if I was always apologising and it was partly, or totally, my fault shouldn't I be thinking about what I could do about it? And if it wasn't my fault what I could be (sensitively) doing to make it easier for the leader to sort it out? Thanks, everyone, for some useful remarks.

Lory, I think that's going to take me a bit of practice!

I'd love to try following with my eyes closed, in a big empty space with someone I trust, preferably.

There's a bit of a difference between a missed lead, where I haven't picked up any of the leader's intention, and a missed hand catch, where the move has been carried out OK, it's just the catch that has been fluffed -that's what I was referring to, really.

[jivecat]

HTH,
Chris

TYVM.

[Magic Hans]

Am I reading this right :confused:

Are you Australian ? Or did I miss something from Mark Harding in Southport ? Or have I got this wrong as well :o

This was from the "Perhaps" routine ... pep talk after we'd learned the routine!

Hope that helps!!

[ChrisA]

TYVM.
YW
:D

[under par]

Sorry when all is said and done IT IS MY FAULT for not leading it properly. :flower:

[Gadget]

I'd love to try following with my eyes closed, in a big empty space with someone I trust, preferably.
There is a big difference in leading and following with your eyes closed; following should be fairly safe - I know of a few ladies who do this regularly. Leading blind can't really be done on a social floor because you can't see if there is anyone in the space you are leading the lady into.

There's a bit of a difference between a missed lead, where I haven't picked up any of the leader's intention, and a missed hand catch, where the move has been carried out OK, it's just the catch that has been fluffed -that's what I was referring to, really.
:wink: then the move wasn't done right. Hands should be about waist level and catches should never be at a full stretch or having to bend in the middle. Leads should either have spun the lady on the spot, or have to move in to collect her.

I don't know exactly, but I think that the lady's catching hand starts to come away from her body when she has about 90º left to turn and ends up about the same distance from her as it would be in a relaxed hand hold where both partners are facing each other.