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Gus
29th-September-2004, 01:29 PM
I know that some of this has been discussed in previous threads. However, considering the vast range of views, intellect and experience on this forum, that this should be a good place to post definitive suggestion and observations about what could happen. We have seen the development of 'super-clubs' like Hipsters, the big party weekenders, growing interest in other Swing styles (e.g. WCS) and the radical changes to ceroc lessons at the start of this year.

So ... what do you think? ... changes to the lesson formats, changes to the teachers ... bring in three lessons (beginner, improvers, advanced), do away with formal lesson, more focus on the music, tear down the edifice of Ceroc and build a non-totalitarian MJ dancing commune based totally on the LeRoc teachings and only DJ from iPods ( :tears: )..... you get this gist.

Please contribute :grin:

MartinHarper
29th-September-2004, 01:57 PM
One thing still puzzles me about Ceroc intermediate lessons...
They're doing three or four new moves a class. The acquisition of vast numbers of moves is, from what I hear, largely an intermediate passion that one grows out of as one matures as a dancer. Yet, many of the moves taught in intermediate classes are, in complexity, fairly advanced.

If the target market is intermediates, why teach them stuff they don't have a chance of getting? If the target market is advanced dancers, why teach them "moves moves moves" which apparently they don't want?

Andy McGregor
29th-September-2004, 02:27 PM
The biggest change I'd like to see is the teaching of more technique. Amir is already doing this and I'm sure Nina can do it just as well (if not better, he adds for fear of a fatal 'death stare' :sick: ).

Of course we need new moves, we get fed up with doing the same moves after a time, no matter how advanced they are. But the basic building blocks of those moves are sound technique. And, IMHO, this could even be taught to beginners - along with a nice selection of moves to keep them interested.

On the subject of Ceroc teaching Advanced lessons. I think this has been a knee-jerk reaction to the imagined threat of Hipsters. That doesn't mean I think it's wrong - but I do think they've done it for all the wrong reasons - then again, maybe I'm wrong about Ceroc's motivation. But, wouldn't Ceroc be better offering someone like Amir the position of Director of Dance and getting him/her to teach members of the CTA how to give fab technique lessons.

Gus
29th-September-2004, 02:40 PM
But, wouldn't Ceroc be better offering someone like Amir the position of Director of Dance and getting him/her to teach members of the CTA how to give fab technique lessons.Gus pictures the stampede as all the ex-CTA teachers (of which there are legion) rush back with new hope in their eyes ....

Andy McGregor
29th-September-2004, 03:19 PM
Gus pictures the stampede as all the ex-CTA teachers (of which there are legion) rush back with new hope in their eyes ....

Did I hit a nerve? :whistle:

Gojive
29th-September-2004, 05:22 PM
Pre Ceroc Fleet used to hold an "Improvers" class (taught by Rob C).

This was an invaluable resource for those who were comfortable with all the beginners moves, and were ready to move on to the core intermediate moves.

I'd like to see more of that kind of thing, but I do appreciate that not all venues would have the extra room required :) .

djtrev
29th-September-2004, 05:24 PM
Quote:'super-clubs' like Hipsters,

Excuse my ignorance but what is it with Hipsters.I am sure there will be flippant comments but I really would like to know-what is so special about it,where and when is it.

Chicklet
29th-September-2004, 07:17 PM
I am intrigued by Gus' use of the word "club" - possibly a good subject for a poll - I don't actually feel part of a particular club (= venue on a particular night? ) as I tend to pop up in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Perth or even Dundee as the fancy takes me of an evening, but think it's fab if people do, of course. :way cool:

So tried to think what would persuade me to my local venue more often and believe it or not, themed nights came to mind. Not often, every six weeks perhaps? what about advertising and running the week/club :wink:
night as a latin/50s/60s/70s/80s/90s/blues/etc night?

Picking music and intermed moves and (please) styling to suit?

Partly this appeals because I love to dress up (even on a school night) but from the business point of view, would this serve to make slightly more of a party atmosphere to act as a bit of a bridge between traditional class nights and workshops and parties? There are 100s of people who go to weeknights but not to workhops or parties, and many of them don't go for fear of the unknown, would this help?

It's an old chestnut for the forum I know but I would also like to see some weeknights devoted to "styling" - traditionally more often kept for workshops I know but again, once every 6 weeks or so? A class on the first move and a couple of variations, covering things like what one can do with one's head, or sweeping one's leg (ronde?) instead of placing it?

C

RobC
29th-September-2004, 09:07 PM
Pre Ceroc Fleet used to hold an "Improvers" class (taught by Rob C).

This was an invaluable resource for those who were comfortable with all the beginners moves, and were ready to move on to the core intermediate moves.

I'd like to see more of that kind of thing, but I do appreciate that not all venues would have the extra room required :) .
Thanks Ian. :wink:

Indeed, nine months on, I am still getting people ask if we are going to run our Improvers class again. I think that the reason it was so successful for JiveBug was that it offered people the choice to do something other than the intermediate class (which compared to the standards of most other local classes was more of an advanced standard anyway). We regularly had 40-50 people in the class and at time we almost had more than the main intermediate class downstairs.

The difference between our Improvers class and other's Intermediate classes was that we didn't try to teach lots of new moves. Rather we gave more time to teaching the lead and follow aspect of moves, and how to string together basic moves and variations into extended sequences. Knowing how to lead the basics properly meant that people then had the confidence to string together their own sequences of basic moves.

One of the added bonuses from running this Improvers class at the same time as the Intermediate/monthly Advanced N&N class, was that beginners who would otherwise had been in the intermediate class slowing it down and 'lowering the standard', were no longer there enabling the intermediate class to progress at a faster rate and maintiain a higher standard of dancer. :clap:

Personally, I would have rather seen Ceroc take this approach if they were to introduce a third class into their night's schedule, rather than pretend to teach an advanced class to people who sometimes shouldn't even be in the intermediates. :what:

Stuart M
29th-September-2004, 11:05 PM
One thing still puzzles me about Ceroc intermediate lessons...
They're doing three or four new moves a class. The acquisition of vast numbers of moves is, from what I hear, largely an intermediate passion that one grows out of as one matures as a dancer. Yet, many of the moves taught in intermediate classes are, in complexity, fairly advanced.

If the target market is intermediates, why teach them stuff they don't have a chance of getting? If the target market is advanced dancers, why teach them "moves moves moves" which apparently they don't want?
In defence of the typical Intermediate class format, I think there's a fair bit of unseen learning going on. Whilst the brain is thinking it is learning all these fab new moves, the muscles are quietly getting trained into the correct mechanics of lead and follow*. So it's happening without the student realising it, in a way that's more enjoyable for them than repeating the same basic moves ad nauseam. You might say this would happen in freestyle anyway, but the class is a controlled environment.

I think the Moves Collecting Phase is an 'adolescent' one which every lead has to go through anyway - the dance equivalent of football cards/stamps/Monty Python Quotes. The occasional advanced move thus becomes a Penny Black which keeps the Intermediates hooked on the learning process.

* It is also, of course, where the bad habits become ingrained, which is to me a more important issue than satisfying Advanced Intermediates

foxylady
30th-September-2004, 12:20 AM
Personally, I would have rather seen Ceroc take this approach if they were to introduce a third class into their night's schedule, rather than pretend to teach an advanced class to people who sometimes shouldn't even be in the intermediates. :what:

:yeah: I absolutely have to agree with this Rob.
Ceroc has started introducing 'advanced classes' and it isn't working because the classes always have to play to the skill level of the attendees... What I have seen happen is "advanced dancers" being frustrated because the teacher is going slowly for the ones that can't cope. They then stop attending and the class becomes an intermediate 'moves' class, because of the mix of people who are going.

Personally I would rather the class was re-named as 'an extra moves class' or 'a lead and follow class', or 'perfecting your footwork' class etc etc... Depending upon what was going to be taught. Labelling a class as advanced is always going to be devisive, and seems to go the way as above...

Although Adam had a novel approach to this in Wheatstone, and insisted anyone wanting to do the advanced had to be there at the start of the beginners class and be prepared to help them... Adam did that work ?

FL

bigdjiver
30th-September-2004, 12:37 AM
...Ceroc has started introducing 'advanced classes' ...

Although Adam had a novel approach to this in Wheatstone, ... Which other locations? It is not something I have come across.

RobC
30th-September-2004, 09:30 AM
Which other locations? It is not something I have come across.
Godalming (taught by Paul Kingston usually) and Surbiton (with Will & Kate) to name two.
Ceroc Plus also runs a monthly advanced class with guest teachers (usually Mick).

Gus
30th-September-2004, 09:37 AM
Godalming (taught by Paul Kingston usually) and Surbiton (with Will & Kate) to name two.
Ceroc Plus also runs a monthly advanced class with guest teachers (usually Mick).But with respect to these teachers do these advanced lessons work? ... possibly on threes levels;

Do the dancers master the moves taught?
Do the dancers enjoy the lesson?
Do these lessons bring in the hordes?

Lounge Lizard
30th-September-2004, 09:54 AM
Last time I made a simmilar contribution on this topic I got flamed for
some reason......anyway here goes

I teach in Hastings, started about 6 years ago.
the format on our first night was - beginner, intermediate/consolidation (run simmultaneously) - at this time no other club in our area taught this format

Now in hastings we offer the following (all for £6)
7.30 to 8.00 New choons freestyle music from UK & USA pre-release plus new additions to my collection (on the iPod) All tracks suitable for MJ and (probably) unheard anywhere in the UK
7.45 - introduction to modern Jive for the brand new dancers
8.00 - basis Level 1 beginners class for anyone with less than 6 weeks dance experience
8.00 - Level 2 beginners class in Modern Jive
8.00 - beginners class in Salsa
8.30 to 9. Freestyle dancing in modern jive & Salsa hall
9.00 - Continuation of Level 1 class
9.00 - Repeat of level 2 class (if needed/wanted)
9.00 - Intermediate modern jive
9.00 - Intermediate Salsa
9.40 to 10.45 Freestyle dancing
9.45 - Masterclass (currently in drops & seducers for October) fixed couples fo experienced dancers only
All music by me

We have three teachers and 3 dance halls + Crew and like many other clubs we still struggle for good numbers.

I think MJ will benefit by offering more variety in smaller classes and being strict with the dancers on what level class they take ( Salsa do it this way)
LL

Andy McGregor
30th-September-2004, 10:00 AM
Phew, I'm worn out just reading that lot. How long does it take to get all the gear in and out?


We have three teachers and 3 dance halls + Crew and like many other clubs we still struggle for good numbers.


Maybe you've got good numbers, you just haven't found them in all those rooms :devil:

Do all the crew wear hats and smart jackets? :wink:

Gus
30th-September-2004, 10:31 AM
INow in hastings we offer the following (all for £6)
7.30 to 8.00 New choons freestyle music from UK & USA pre-release plus new additions to my collection (on the iPod) All tracks suitable for MJ and (probably) unheard anywhere in the UK
7.45 - introduction to modern Jive for the brand new dancers
8.00 - basis Level 1 beginners class for anyone with less than 6 weeks dance experience
8.00 - Level 2 beginners class in Modern Jive
8.00 - beginners class in Salsa
8.30 to 9. Freestyle dancing in modern jive & Salsa hall
9.00 - Continuation of Level 1 class
9.00 - Repeat of level 2 class (if needed/wanted)
9.00 - Intermediate modern jive
9.00 - Intermediate Salsa
9.40 to 10.45 Freestyle dancing
9.45 - Masterclass (currently in drops & seducers for October) fixed couples fo experienced dancers only
All music by me

We have three teachers and 3 dance halls + Crew and like many other clubs we still struggle for good numbers.
I WISH I could offer something like that up here! It will take a while .. at the moment I think that a succesfull strategy will be to have a couple of 'feeder' clubs of a standard format bringing through beginners, with a single 'Hipsters-R-Us' club to meet the needs of the more advanced.

Lory
30th-September-2004, 10:40 AM
I would also like to see some weeknights devoted to "styling" - traditionally more often kept for workshops I know but again, once every 6 weeks or so? A class on the first move and a couple of variations, covering things like what one can do with one's head, or sweeping one's leg (ronde?) instead of placing it?

C
:yeah: I like that idea too!

Maybe some weeks concentrating on stying points for different types of music, e.g. Simple first move...but with latin style head/hand/foot twist!

Also I'd really like to see clubs staying open for longer freestyling, more big fans and Free water! :D

Gadget
30th-September-2004, 10:42 AM
Most venues I have ben to only have one hall - so only practical solution is to have one lesson at a time: I think that the current format is about right, but it's to do with the quality of teaching as well:
There tends to be at least one "style" point that both Lorna and Lisa add into their intermediate class for those not interested in move collecting. And there is normally some "interesting" music played before the begginer's class.

Zuhal
30th-September-2004, 10:42 AM
But with respect to these teachers do these advanced lessons work? ... possibly on threes levels;

Do the dancers master the moves taught?
Do the dancers enjoy the lesson?
Do these lessons bring in the hordes?


The addition of an "advanced" class has changed the complexion of my local venue. It has attracted a small horde

The advanced types drift in at 9 pm
Lots of people do the class who are not really capable.(do not do it myself but have watched and have danced with the wannabees in freestyle)
It polarises the freestyle because fully 1/3 if the room wants to practice what they have just learned and risk being labelled "hotshots"
I can usually lead the intermediate sequence well enough for someone who was in the advanced class but I cannot break the "I'm so bored dancing with you" look
It appears that the advanced teaching does not extend to the appropriateness of doing extravagant walks, and drops on a crowded dance floor! :mad:
The friendly atmosphere where the beginners were encouraged has been lost. :sad:

Zuhal

Minnie M
30th-September-2004, 11:01 AM
Maybe some weeks concentrating on stying points for different types of music, e.g. Simple first move...but with latin style head/hand/foot twist!

Also I'd really like to see clubs staying open for longer freestyling, more big fans and Free water! :D

:yeah: Doesn't matter what stage you are at, styling & techniique most of us will always, either need or would be interested in. I am off to a whole weekend of this - unfortunately this is swing, we haven't got around to do a MJ weekend like this one (Sultans of Swing/Coventry)

longer freestyles for weekend dances though, weekdays 11pm is fine by me - I like the coffee etc., chill-out sessions for the last half hour :clap:

Wish I could give a rep for this post - but I have to wait :tears:

Gordon J Pownall
30th-September-2004, 11:26 AM
But with respect to these teachers do these advanced lessons work? ... possibly on threes levels;

Do the dancers master the moves taught?
Do the dancers enjoy the lesson?
Do these lessons bring in the hordes?


OK - CerocMetro....

First Monday of every month at Cheshunt (Wolsey Hall) has been a Masterclass (note lack of use of word 'advanced' :clap: focussing on style, themes, genres, fusions etc - how to get more out of what you already know (with a few new moves thrown in where needed to demonstrate technique)...taught by Gordon

Mondays at Finchley / Whetstone used to run (every so often) a six week X Factor course covering dance technique such as spinning, lead, follow, framework etc....taught by Adam :worthy:

Wednesdays at St Albans have run three classes - Beginners at 8pm, Beginners / Improvers at 8.40pm and Intermediate at 9.15pm...taugt by Mick :worthy:


All of these classes / nights reflect an increase in numbers, all of them focus on development as a dancer as opposed to appealing to the move collector and all of them attract dancers who are seeking to improve their dance technique as opposed to a desire to know more difficult moves or aspire to that unknown quantity of 'advanced' :sick: level.

CerocMetro doesn't use the word advanced in relation to any of the above - it is for dancers who wish to develop skills and technique at intermediate level. It is well known (mostly by men) that as much as you can learn more and more moves, your repertoire is limited by your ability to remember them - all the above classes seek to improve upon what you already know...

Ceroc is taught ar*e about face...we teach moves to people but rarely, during the usual classes, teach people how to dance these moves as opposed to ballroom / latin where you are first taught technique and then taught the moves to apply the technique to...the ballroom method makes life a lot easier later on when things get more complex although progress in ballroom is initially slow whereas Ceroc / MJ gives instant rewards to newbies...

Just thought I'd throw that in to the melting pot..... :flower:

foxylady
30th-September-2004, 11:32 AM
Which other locations? It is not something I have come across.

I know of advanced classes running in Fulham and they were running them at the Jive Bar, although not currently.

Lindsay
30th-September-2004, 12:28 PM
It's an old chestnut for the forum I know but I would also like to see some weeknights devoted to "styling" - traditionally more often kept for workshops I know but again, once every 6 weeks or so? A class on the first move and a couple of variations, covering things like what one can do with one's head, or sweeping one's leg (ronde?) instead of placing it? :yeah:


But with respect to these teachers do these advanced lessons work? ...
Do the dancers master the moves taught?
Do the dancers enjoy the lesson?
Do these lessons bring in the hordes?

Possibly, yes, and unlikely (IMHO).

MartinHarper
12th-October-2004, 02:13 PM
Many venues I've been to have a "beginner's review" class during the intermediate class. It'd be interesting to have an "intermediate review" class during the beginners class: just refreshing our minds about what moves were taught last week, adding a few extra pointers, etc.

Andy McGregor
12th-October-2004, 02:25 PM
Many venues I've been to have a "beginner's review" class during the intermediate class. It'd be interesting to have an "intermediate review" class during the beginners class: just refreshing our minds about what moves were taught last week, adding a few extra pointers, etc.

At MoJive in the Southampton area they have Intermediate 1 & 2. The early intermediates are taken off to another room 2/3rds of the way through the intermediate lesson to have that routine repeated. The remainder are taught a short routine, quite quickly, with a drop or seducer or something of the like - and because the early intermediates aren't there the lesson goes quite quickly.

I think it would be a good idea to have an intermediate refresher during the beginners lesson. But I can see two problems, firstly there'd be no intermediates in the beginners lesson to help the totally inexperienced dancers and secondly, some intermediates feel that they don't need to get there early because they know the lesson or have found a boy/girlfriend already :devil:

Gadget
12th-October-2004, 02:27 PM
Unfortunatly that would draw intermediates away from the begginers class - you need their experiance to help the newbies.

(and it does not matter what level you are, I think you can always learn something from participating in the begginers class)

DianaS
14th-October-2004, 03:55 PM
Many venues I've been to have a "beginner's review" class during the intermediate class. It'd be interesting to have an "intermediate review" class during the beginners class: just refreshing our minds about what moves were taught last week, adding a few extra pointers, etc.
Hi Martin
a couple of venues near me have started to do this. At the end of intermediates we vote for which sequesne we want to do again next week (or vote at the start of the next lesson) The most popular one we do the next week often with a variation or added twist.
It seems to have gone down well and is really popular

A different venue takes one sequence and repeats it at different nights of the week. There isn't a vote but you know what you've done on Tuesday may well appear in some form on Wednesday. This is good if you enjoyed it but if you didn't you think of going else where for the Wednesday session!

I find that I don't remember the sequences at all now, I tend to work more on the fly so it makes no difference to me. But the guys I dance with seem to value it

jivecat
14th-October-2004, 09:11 PM
Unfortunatly that would draw intermediates away from the begginers class - you need their experiance to help the newbies.

(and it does not matter what level you are, I think you can always learn something from participating in the begginers class)

:yeah: I find the crowd of intermediates that gather at the back of the room during the beginners/intermediate class a bit depressing. Some of the reasons for non-participation given are that -

It's pointless/boring
It's too easy
I know all those moves
I will never use those moves in freestyle
I can't learn with all those useless men/ladies messing it up for me

Quite apart from the issue of supporting less experienced dancers who might appreciate their help in mastering the lesson I'm always amazed that people seem to feel they can't get anything out of the classes on offer, even if it's only an opportunity for repetitive practice of basic skills.

I gather that a professional ballet dancer would attend a drill class of basic techniques virtually every day of their career to keep honed fitness and skills that they had spent years of hard training acquiring. I'm not suggesting that a dancer doing modern jive for mainly social reasons should do this, but, practice makes perfect. I quite like it when the moves content of the lesson is "too easy" because I can concentrate on other aspects of the dance, such as spinning, balance, timing, style etc, which I can't do if the moves are pushing me to the edge of my ability.

foxylady
14th-October-2004, 10:21 PM
:yeah: I find the crowd of intermediates that gather at the back of the room during the beginners/intermediate class a bit depressing. Some of the reasons for non-participation given are that -

/snip
Quite apart from the issue of supporting less experienced dancers who might appreciate their help in mastering the lesson I'm always amazed that people seem to feel they can't get anything out of the classes on offer, even if it's only an opportunity for repetitive practice of basic skills.



You are right. I think everyone can learn something from a class no matter what level its aimed at - and during a class you can discover new dancers (good and bad :wink: ) that otherwise you may not discover for weeks.

But I am guilty of sitting out classes. Generally because either the floor is too crowded and/or there are too many women anyway... Sometimes I will take the man's role in the latter situation, but it will depend upon which venue I am at and how well I know the other dancers (some women can be really odd about dancing with other women ...)

And I have to admit that whilst I do feel that I shouldn't, sometimes I just don't want to ! and sometimes I just want to gaze adoringly at the instructor's bottom/hips ! :blush:


FL

Gus
15th-October-2004, 12:54 AM
:yeah: I find the crowd of intermediates that gather at the back of the room during the beginners/intermediate class a bit depressing. Quite apart from the issue of supporting less experienced dancers who might appreciate their help in mastering the lesson I'm always amazed that people seem to feel they can't get anything out of the classes on offer, even if it's only an opportunity for repetitive practice of basic skills.My observation over the last few years is that a fair percentage of the intermediates who are "too good for beginnners" would benefit greatly from actualy learning how to do the basics right. I was watching a few such coves tonight at my club. They gazed on with disinterest and then in freestyle managed to massacre most of their moves as their footwork, positioning and timing were all well out :tears: Howeever, on the positive side, I've noticed more and more beginners staying in the beginners class and revision class to get their basics right before stepping up to intermediate :grin:

MartinHarper
15th-October-2004, 01:28 AM
More reasons for non-participation, from a male perspective...

1. There are already excess men, or equal numbers. I can't justify a situation where my presence is causing a beginner man (who the class is designed for) to sit out. Sometimes I join because there are excess women, and then drop out if more men turn up later on.
2. My attention span today is low - if I take part I am likely to end up gossiping, not listening, not counting, etc - and that could disrupt the class for other folks. Perhaps teachers can tell us whether they'd prefer to have bored intermediates in or out of the class?
3. There are already sufficient intermediate men taking part. Of course Intermediate men doing beginner's classes benefit beginner women. However, in excess, they might also discourage beginner men: they reduce the "my, look at the hordes of women" factor. Also, there's a certain intimidation in dancing in a class where everyone else is finding it really easy. Perhaps teachers can tell us what proportion of intermediate men is too many?

And more selfishly... :)
4. My energy levels are low. I'd prefer to use what I have in freestyle, rather than getting tired out in the beginner class.
5. I need to talk to X to arrange Y: I'd prefer to do that during the beginner class and dance during freestyle, rather than vica versa.
6. I'd rather practice my social skills, which are in dire need of improvement, than my dancing skills.

Graham
15th-October-2004, 07:17 AM
I think that's all perfectly valid. The thing which irritates me is where there are many extra women, and a couple of guys (the same every week) who turn up at 7:30 on their own, don't talk to anyone, and sit out the beginner class and sometimes the intermediate class too. I simply don't understand why they don't just turn up later!

Minnie M
15th-October-2004, 08:00 AM
1. There are already excess men,...............

Where do you dance :really: (girls are you listening :yeah: )

Jooles
15th-October-2004, 12:39 PM
There were excess men at Clapham on Monday AND on Wednesday night this week

Sand Dancer
15th-October-2004, 12:59 PM
Excess men in Clapham? Please send them up to Glasgow!

Magic Hans
15th-October-2004, 01:26 PM
...
freestyle managed to massacre most of their moves ...



:rofl: :rofl:

Like the turn of phrase .... conjures up an image of man in machine gun nest with gritted teeth, firing at will!!

Sand Dancer
15th-October-2004, 01:29 PM
:rofl: :rofl:

Like the turn of phrase .... conjures up an image of man in machine gun nest with gritted teeth, firing at will!!

Poor old Will - everybody is always picking on him! :tears:

stewart38
15th-October-2004, 05:02 PM
:
Personally I would rather the class was re-named as 'an extra moves class' or 'a lead and follow class', or 'perfecting your footwork' class etc etc
FL

I remember when Teachers use to say in ceroc 10yrs ago 'there is no footwork in ceroc'

Simplicity and non partner were major attractions for me

So now its evolving and we demand more I wonder if we have forgotten the past . (Next stage exams etc)

ps I’m in favour of advance classes but see as said before so many beginners worried about their foot work when a sense of rhythm should be of more concern.

ChrisA
15th-October-2004, 05:41 PM
ps I’m in favour of advance classes but see as said before so many beginners worried about their foot work when a sense of rhythm should be of more concern.
A lot of beginners have to be gently coaxed to step on any foot, in any direction. :eek: :confused:

In taxi classes, I get people who are confused, not helped, by being told they can step back on either foot. They spend enough time deciding which foot to step back on, that the beat has passed and they're then off it. :sad:

Stepping once per count is made harder, not easier, by teaching no footwork, IMHO - since both not stepping, and trying to fit in lots of steps, are harder to do, and contribute to making it difficult to move in time with the music. It's an example of the way people that are beginners at anything tend to make easy things hard. It's just the way of things - but we should help them to make it easy. :flower:

By all means let people slide, twist, triple-step, etc, once they have the rest of it in their heads.

But it really does help them to just say (to the girls), "step back right", because they do, and it just works. Stepping back on the side that the lead comes from is also easier for most people, so it's easier to teach connection, often without them knowing it's happening.

These are just some of the reasons I believe that some basic footwork is a great help, a simplifier, a facilitator... and doesn't actually make anything harder. Even if it was only "step back right, step forward right", and then "step back right, then right, left, right" for a travelling return, a lot of the ladies would find things a lot easier in the early days.

JMHO.

Chris

Graham W
17th-October-2004, 02:23 PM
..Jive 'clubs' - I think some places around here arent so much clubs as dance classes & a bit too narrow in potential

G

one which isnt is CeRoc Gloucester.. :-)

Jive Brummie
17th-October-2004, 03:05 PM
Interesting degate this.

I kind of know what I want to put but feel it's already been said. I think wherever you are in the country, people want 'advanced' lessons. Call them what you want....'improvers', 'masterclass'...at the end of the day they're all looked upon as being advanced.... To what degree, is determined by the quality of the teacher and their knowledge. Surely any class that teaches 'that little bit more', could be looked upon as being advanced. And it's up to the people taking these classes to determine how far they take these hints and tips and how they use them.

Intermediate dancers...the beginners class needs you. Bigstyle. Think back to when you were all beginners and how daunting things appeared when you danced with a fellow beginner and neither of you knew what the hell you were doing. Then think back to how much of a smile was on your face when you danced with someone more experienced and the move 'worked'. Good feeling eh?

Then there's the dilemma of lesser experienced people going up a level before they're ready. Well how can you deal with this? I personally think the old grading issue is one which should be addressed. Don't they already do this sort of thing in Salsa? And lets face it...salsa isn't doing too badly out of it. If you don't make the grade you don't go up a level. Simple as that. People need to be honest with themselves, and if they can't be, then the teacher should do it for them. It's purely an idea but one I think needs some consideration. I know there are many reasons why it shouldn't be that way, but I think one of the main gripes for not participating in a class is the frustration felt by some that they can't achieve the end result as there aren't any dancers in the class good enough. I personnally think it takes two to tango, so maybe it's not the lesser experienced dancers fault, and don't be so arrogant to think that you're perfect. The more i dance, the more i realise there is sooooooo much more to learn. And i for one, with the help of my (brutally :wink: ) honest partner, still practise beginner moves.

None of this has particularly added to the conversation, but i wanted to put something. :whistle:

JB x x

Gadget
17th-October-2004, 11:02 PM
The more i dance, the more i realise there is sooooooo much more to learn. And i for one, with the help of my (brutally :wink: ) honest partner, still practise beginner moves.
:yeah: :yeah:

jivecat
18th-October-2004, 09:34 AM
a few such coves

You're not a Georgette Heyer fan as well, are you? (See Book Club thread)
Thinking about it, you might suit a pair of tight breeches and some well-polished leather top-boots. An idea for your next theme night? Jane Austen meets MJ. :wink: :eek: Though the girlies are wearing quite enough diaphanous muslin as it is.






massacre most of their moves Sad, but often true.

Gus
18th-October-2004, 09:56 AM
Though the girlies are wearing quite enough diaphanous muslin as it is.I was running a coaching session with some 'hotshots' :wink: last night and somehow the guys came to the conclusion that female taxi dancers should wear bunny girl outfits as a way of increasing male interest? Good Idea? :whistle:

jivecat
18th-October-2004, 10:27 AM
I was running a coaching session with some 'hotshots' :wink: last night and somehow the guys came to the conclusion that female taxi dancers should wear bunny girl outfits as a way of increasing male interest? Good Idea? :whistle:


Just about anything would be better than those sack-like black t-shirts.

I'm sure the lady taxidancers would accept it readily if the male equivalents were wearing some kind of scanty leather gear on their rippling, muscular frames, a bit like that advert for something or other. Fair exchange, guys?

Gus
18th-October-2004, 10:34 AM
I'm sure the lady taxidancers would accept it readily if the male equivalents were wearing some kind of scanty leather gear on their rippling, muscular frames, a bit like that advert for something or other. Fair exchange, guys?And how many taxi dancers do you know who would look good in scanty leather ... franchisees please nominate! Actualy, coupke of my guys are in pretty good shape but dont think their partners would be too keen ... though you never know.

Andy McGregor
18th-October-2004, 10:55 AM
a bit like that advert for something or other. Fair exchange, guys?

Completely unbidden the phrase "Hello Boys" has popped into my head :whistle:

mick
18th-October-2004, 11:30 AM
Why so much emphasis on advanced moves when the poll below showed that this is least important?

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85

ps what is all this points and power rubbish about?

Gus
18th-October-2004, 12:58 PM
Why so much emphasis on advanced moves when the poll below showed that this is least important?Mick, my dear fellow, good to have you back on form ... advanced dancing is not solely about advanced moves. Suggest you PM The Oracle for an explanation. :flower:

Gadget
18th-October-2004, 01:18 PM
Why so much emphasis on advanced moves when the poll below showed that this is least important?
Advanced dancing; not advanced moves.

ps what is all this points and power rubbish about?
Points = prizes
Power allows you to do special combo moves.

Search for "Reputation Points" and you will find a few threads discussing it.

Dreadful Scathe
18th-October-2004, 01:40 PM
Advanced dancing; not advanced moves.


Indeed. Theres a world of difference between Advanced Dancing and Advanced Moves. I can do an advanced move and so can Amir ;)




Power allows you to do special combo moves.


aha... like in Street Fighter 2 ? Take out the competition with a double super pretzel with a leap and twist. :) Cool, gimme more power :)

Graham W
21st-October-2004, 01:53 PM
..Jive 'clubs' - I think some places around here arent so much clubs as dance classes & a bit too narrow in potential

G

one which isnt is CeRoc Gloucester.. :-)

Talking to myself,,, but CeRoc Gloucester is moving to Bristol & I think thats great for dancing - whatever u say about CeRoc the Gloucs crowd aint stale -
I even found myself cheering on the Gloucs inter couple on sat - sorry guys u classes have all got a bit selfish ...without exception..staying on thread - Bristol will get a club type atomosphere rather then a small scale interest..assuming it takes off :-)

G :-)

Adios.. & yes it is personal.

Minnie M
21st-October-2004, 02:00 PM
.. like in Street Fighter 2 ..........

Apolgies for going off-thread but........ didn't know there was a sequel, :confused: how can that work :confused: is Brad Pitt still there - or have I got the wrong film :whistle:

Lou
21st-October-2004, 02:05 PM
Bristol will get a club type atomosphere rather then a small scale interest..assuming it takes off :-)

Interesting idea, but somehow I think you'll be disappointed if you're looking for a "club-type atmosphere" in the picturesque village of Thornbury, which is where I believe the class is locating.

Perhaps London's more your scene? :whistle:

mick
21st-October-2004, 03:21 PM
Mick, my dear fellow, good to have you back on form ... advanced dancing is not solely about advanced moves. Suggest you PM The Oracle for an explanation. :flower:


One thing still puzzles me about Ceroc intermediate lessons...
They're doing three or four new moves a class. The acquisition of vast numbers of moves is, from what I hear, largely an intermediate passion that one grows out of as one matures as a dancer. Yet, many of the moves taught in intermediate classes are, in complexity, fairly advanced.

If the target market is intermediates, why teach them stuff they don't have a chance of getting? If the target market is advanced dancers, why teach them "moves moves moves" which apparently they don't want?




Why so much emphasis on advanced moves when the poll below showed that this is least important?

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85

?

The second post on this thread was about too many intermediate moves, not about style or "advanced dancing", whatever that may be!

Divissima
21st-October-2004, 04:24 PM
Just about anything would be better than those sack-like black t-shirts.More years ago than I care to work out, I was a taxi dancer for Ceroc Central at the Marcus Garvey Centre, Nottingham. Fortunately, the venue manager had the presence of mind to order some taxi dancer t-shirts in child sizes, so that they fitted snugly and avoided the whole sack effect. Worth a mention?

Peter
21st-October-2004, 05:07 PM
... the venue manager had the presence of mind to order some taxi dancer t-shirts in child sizes, so that they fitted snugly and avoided the whole sack effect. Worth a mention?

Definitely worth thinking about ...

Gadget
21st-October-2004, 09:24 PM
Still in black? I would prefer thinking about white t-shirts a few sizes too small... :devil: :drool:

Whitebeard
22nd-October-2004, 12:46 AM
Talking to myself,,, but CeRoc Gloucester is moving to Bristol
I hope you mean (mutter, mutter) that John is opening a new venue near Bristol (Thornbury) rather than relocating the existing venue(s) at Gloucester. Although this has never been quite the same since the loss of The Woodlawns, and I may from time to time complain about the music (an old timer's priviledge), you're still talking about 50% (and the best 50%) of my dancing and social life.

No, I think John's ambitions are limited only by the number of days in a week and I just hope he doesn't overstretch and blow it all.

Divissima
22nd-October-2004, 09:09 AM
Still in black? I would prefer thinking about white t-shirts a few sizes too small... :devil: :drool:Actually, they were the old-style taxi shirts so they were white with black lettering. It was supposed to be a serious suggestion :rolleyes: ;)

Gadget
22nd-October-2004, 11:07 AM
I am serious!: I would much rather think about tight white T-shirts than tight black ones... ;)

latinlover
22nd-October-2004, 01:18 PM
I am serious!: I would much rather think about tight white T-shirts than tight black ones... ;)

:yeah:

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM........................ :drool:

Graham W
22nd-October-2004, 04:57 PM
Interesting idea, but somehow I think you'll be disappointed if you're looking for a "club-type atmosphere" in the picturesque village of Thornbury, which is where I believe the class is locating.

Perhaps London's more your scene? :whistle:

I'll try and persuade them to move into town b4 I go then..



G

Dance Demon
22nd-October-2004, 05:19 PM
Apolgies for going off-thread but........ didn't know there was a sequel, :confused: how can that work :confused: is Brad Pitt still there - or have I got the wrong film :whistle:

Don't think he was referring to the film Minnie........but rather the Computer bash em up game from whence it came...... :flower:

Simon r
22nd-October-2004, 05:50 PM
I am serious!: I would much rather think about tight white T-shirts than tight black ones... ;)


and welcome to the perverts forum :whistle:

Lindy Hopeful
23rd-October-2004, 11:19 AM
Thumbs up for advance classes........................yes please.

although footwork is not a top teaching tip in ceroc............... a sense of timing is a must for everyone not just beginners.....................it would help if when returning or spinning a follower which foot to step forward on in order that the correct foot is used to exit the move before requiring to hop skip and jump to catch up on the next move.

Its all about balance I feel.

Minnie M
23rd-October-2004, 11:43 AM
although footwork is not a top teaching tip in ceroc............... .

What footwork :confused:

mick
23rd-October-2004, 01:00 PM
Mick, my dear fellow, good to have you back on form ... advanced dancing is not solely about advanced moves. Suggest you PM The Oracle for an explanation. :flower:

Gnothi se auton

Lindsay
23rd-October-2004, 01:00 PM
and welcome to the perverts forum :whistle:
:yum: can't beat a guy in a tight white t-shirt...
(unless he has boobs of course)

Whitebeard
23rd-October-2004, 02:55 PM
can't beat a guy in a tight white t-shirt...
(unless he has boobs of course)

But I guess pecs are fine with you???

Graham W
23rd-October-2004, 03:21 PM
I hope you mean (mutter, mutter) that John is opening a new venue near Bristol (Thornbury) rather than relocating the existing venue(s) at Gloucester. Although this has never been quite the same since the loss of The Woodlawns, and I may from time to time complain about the music (an old timer's priviledge), you're still talking about 50% (and the best 50%) of my dancing and social life.

No, I think John's ambitions are limited only by the number of days in a week and I just hope he doesn't overstretch and blow it all.

No - he is not closing Gloucester or relocating as far as I know

G

Lindsay
23rd-October-2004, 05:26 PM
But I guess pecs are fine with you???

oh yes! :yum:

Zebra Woman
24th-October-2004, 06:57 PM
:yeah: I like that idea too!

Maybe some weeks concentrating on stying points for different types of music, e.g. Simple first move...but with latin style head/hand/foot twist!

Also I'd really like to see clubs staying open for longer freestyling, more big fans and Free water! :D

:yeah: I also like the Ashtons idea of a feedback book kept at the venue so that people can comment on the music and perhaps even the teaching....without having to do it face to face :blush:

I would like lessons on freestyle nights to stick closely to a time limit so the freestyle isn't eaten into. I have known the second class to go on for 55 minutes many times.

I like a bit of interaction too 'another move or more chance to practice what we've got?' was a nice option offered by David and Lily last week.

'Do you like this track for dancing?' was a good question from Bob at Ashtons, people were rushing to give it a 'yes' or 'no' vote.

Although, as we know there's no pleasing everyone.... :rolleyes: