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tiger
22nd-September-2004, 07:21 PM
I keep seeing posts with ref to 'hothots'.

Whilst I understand the idea of the term hotshot, i'm curious to know:

What kind of behaviour justifies such a title?

Who the hotshots are?

What a hotshot isn't.

etc,etc


Go forumites; let rip.

ChrisA
22nd-September-2004, 08:34 PM
I keep seeing posts with ref to 'hothots'.

Whilst I understand the idea of the term hotshot, i'm curious to know:

What kind of behaviour justifies such a title?


Lots of stuff about hotshots here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1709)

But there's stuff elsewhere too, findable using the search facility...

HTH,
Chris

Gadget
23rd-September-2004, 08:26 AM
In breif: the term "HotShot" is an attitude that some excelent dancers seem to exude: they will only dance with other brilliant dancers - however they do lower themselves to dance with lesser dancers on occasion... and make the lesser dancer feel they are lesser.
Generally used as a derogitory term, but is occasionaly used to describe someone showing off and full of confidence on the dance floor.

Jive Brummie
23rd-September-2004, 12:34 PM
I'll give you an example....

At the weekend in Southport, I danced with a 'Face' ranked highly on the scene. At the end of the dance she said to me...

"Are you someone I should know?"

:blush: :blush: :blush:

I just murmured "No" and scurried off back to my corner....... :sad:

MartinHarper
23rd-September-2004, 12:40 PM
"Are you someone I should know?"

I'm guessing it was clear otherwise from the way she said it, but she could have just been checking whether she'd danced with you before, and forgotten...

Dreadful Scathe
23rd-September-2004, 01:12 PM
I'll give you an example....

At the weekend in Southport, I danced with a 'Face' ranked highly on the scene. At the end of the dance she said to me...

"Are you someone I should know?"

:blush: :blush: :blush:

I just murmured "No" and scurried off back to my corner....... :sad:
hahahah :rofl: brilliant - takes all sorts doesnt it, but still a nice compliment :)

CJ
23rd-September-2004, 01:15 PM
C'mon JB...

Does the FACE have a name?!?!?!?1

:rofl:

ElaineB
23rd-September-2004, 01:59 PM
I managed to dance with a 'hotshot' a while back at Walthamstow masked ball. He had refused me in 2003, so my tactic this year was to go up to him and say' 'You refused to dance with me last year, you're not going to do that again are you?' Of course, he had to accept....when he asked if he could have a second dance.........I refused! :rofl: Wicked aren't I? :grin:


Elaine

tiger
23rd-September-2004, 07:27 PM
Thank you for the replies.

Ive had a look on the previous hotshot thread since and seem to understand it better now.
For further curiousity:


Where do the majority of them dance? Club nights,big do's , weekenders, by the stage???

Is their dance ability admired or dispised?

Are they snobs?

Do some of them (after people's pre judging) turn out to be nice people?

Gadget
23rd-September-2004, 08:41 PM
Where do the majority of them dance? Club nights,big do's , weekenders, by the stage???
You will occasionaly find this sub-species of dancer on a class night, but they are rare and only appear after the intermediate class has finished - or on occasion before it; but ths is only to re-assure themselves that they do know it all and that the teacher is teaching things wrong.

More prevalant at weekenders and partys where they do not need to demean themselves by actually attending a class by a "normal" teacher. However they will be the first to sign up for an "A-list" teacher and subsequently use what they thought was taught (or confirmed) to dismiss any other contrary teachings.

The physical positioning on the dance floor tends to be in one of two places: 1) in the center or where they can be seen by the most people
2) close to any other "hotshot" or excelent dancers so that they can dance with them.
{There is rumor that a certain London MJ club called hipsomethingorother has more than it's fair share of these entitys - but I can neither confirm or deny this rumor.}

Is their dance ability admired or dispised?
Their ability (if you like it) is to be admired: you should be able to pickup a few stylish tricks and moves from them. Their attitude however is to be dispised.

Are they snobs?
If they have not seen someone excelent dancing with you, then you fall below their radar. They will never ask anyone below "intermediate" level to dance.

Do some of them (after people's pre judging) turn out to be nice people?
Most 'perceived' hotshots are actually blissfully unaware of this tag, and are simply waiting for anyone to dance with them. Due to the flocking nature of these people, you tend to find four or five forming elite cliques where good dancers are 'gimped' out to each other.
If a "hotshot" dancer actually dances with a fresh face and ends with a genuine smile and 'thank you' or asks for another, then either you are a very good dancer, or they are not actually a "hotshot".
Some try to disguise their true "hotshot" status by inflicting themselves on the occasional beginner and telling them what should and should not be done - but this is more for their own defense against being called one than any true eagernss to dance with a beginner (unless they are pretty/hunky and they want to be seen with them.)

Of course, never having witnessed any true "hotshots" in Scotland, most of this is based on hearsay and gossip, so may be entirley inaccurate.

ChrisA
23rd-September-2004, 11:07 PM
Of course, never having witnessed any true "hotshots" in Scotland, most of this is based on hearsay and gossip, so may be entirley inaccurate.
In my own experience, every single person that I've suspected of being a hotshot, has without exception, turned out not to be one.

I've eventually recognised that the impressions I formed that led to me believing them to be hotshots were actually products of my own feelings of inferiority about my own dancing - and projections of my own imaginations (about their motives / reasons for not dancing with me / facial expressions when dancing with me / etc) on to them.

These imagined attitudes, as I discovered when I got to know these people better, bore no relation to reality whatsoever.

Some people probably think that I'm a hotshot these days, and maybe they're right. I tend to dance mostly with people that don't yank me about - I have two injuries that get a lot worse if I'm yanked about on the dancefloor, so I tend to protect myself more than I used to.

Chris

Jive Brummie
23rd-September-2004, 11:17 PM
C'mon JB...

Does the FACE have a name?!?!?!?1

:rofl:

yeah.

CJ
23rd-September-2004, 11:19 PM
yeah.

JB, you're killing us here....

The name was..... :grin:

:whistle:

Jooles
24th-September-2004, 11:16 AM
Can a Hotshot also be somebody who revels in the role of a taxi dancer for the feeling of superiority it gives them and not for the intention of encouraging others.

I once took a friend to a veune for her very first time and the taxi dancer didn't encourage her once through the class, I don't know what he was like in the workshop afterwards as I wasn't there, but I do know that during the freestyle he sat on the sidelines and talked to a friend all night and didn't dance with a beginner once. Fortunately I persuaded her to go to a different venue with me later in the month where there were two lovely taxi dancers who were full of smiles, encouragement and danced with her often enough to give her a bit of confidence.

I just remember thinking that this guy must be what is called a Hotshot.

Lynn
24th-September-2004, 11:35 AM
Also the hotshot 'attitude' can be seen in dancers who aren't actually very good but think they are. I've never danced with a MJ hotshot (I'm far too low down the ability scale!) but I have seen this behaviour on the salsa scene here - but not with the very best dancers - they will dance with a beginner if asked but the beginners are scared to ask.

Dance Demon
24th-September-2004, 05:14 PM
I just remember thinking that this guy must be what is called a Hotshot.

Sounds like a fair description Jooles..:sad:

ChrisA
24th-September-2004, 05:50 PM
I just remember thinking that this guy must be what is called a Hotshot.


Sounds like a fair description Jooles..:sad:
I'd be very surprised if a genuine hotshot would want to be a taxi dancer.

Taxi dancers that don't do what they're supposed to do in this way may well be lazy and selfish - but not hotshots in what has come to be the forum definition of the term.

Anyone that doesn't want to taxi shouldn't - and there are many valid reasons for not wanting to. But they shouldn't wear the shirt and not do the job.

Tell the organiser if you encounter this sort of thing. Since discouraging beginners will hit them where it hurts - in the wallet - you'll probably find them very receptive.

Regarding hotshots, though, I think the best way of dealing with the whole issue is just to focus on getting better at dancing and not worrying about who will and who won't dance with you, and why.

That way you get more enjoyment out of it, and more to the point, you give more pleasure by dancing. You'll get more in demand as a dancer, and you'll probably find that the people you thought were hotshots aren't.

Chris

Andy McGregor
24th-September-2004, 06:32 PM
In my own experience, every single person that I've suspected of being a hotshot, has without exception, turned out not to be one.

I think ChrisA is getting mixed up between dancing hotshots and nice people outside dancing.

I've observed quite a few hotshots at dancing and haven't changed my opinion of them since finding out they're really nice people outside the dance scene. At dancing they have their own agenda - and it doesn't include dancing with people like me, or doing the lesson, or ratating in the lesson if they do it, or dancing with beginners, or smiling

ChrisA
24th-September-2004, 06:43 PM
I think ChrisA is getting mixed up between dancing hotshots and nice people outside dancing.

I've observed quite a few hotshots at dancing and haven't changed my opinion of them since finding out they're really nice people outside the dance scene. At dancing they have their own agenda - and it doesn't include dancing with people like me, or doing the lesson, or ratating in the lesson if they do it, or dancing with beginners, or smiling

I'm not saying they don't exist. Just that there aren't as many of them as I once thought. If someone doesn't dance with you on one or more occasions, or doesn't smile, or doesn't do the lesson, or whatever, the temptation is to label them a hotshot...

They may be, of course, or they may not. But worrying about whether they are is a pointless way to spend time.

If you want the hotshots to want to dance with you, become the sort of dancer they like dancing with. If you do that, chances are you'll end up being a much better dancer too as a by-product (no, I'm not saying that to be a hotshot is the same as being a good dancer).

If you don't want them to, treat the whole thing as a non-issue.

Taxi-dancers not doing the job they're supposed to is far more important to get exercised about.

Chris

djtrev
24th-September-2004, 07:25 PM
This is a good thread.
The descriptions of a "hotshot" are spot on and I have to say I have met a few.Two in particular come to mind.Thankfully neither come to our classes any more.One of them actually said that there was no one good enough for her to have a good dance with.The other was very picky with who she would dance with and very often asked for a particular track that she knew would clear the floor(The Bongo Song- oops I have just realised she might read this and she will certainly know who she is) giving her center stage.You will notice that they are both female,although I have come across one or two of the male variety.Having said, that I have to agree with Chris,these people may be "hotshots "on the dance floor but generally speaking they are quite nice people.
I think most of us would admit to preferring to dance with a certain circle of friends but I personally would be quite happy to dance with anybody that took the trouble to ask.I am not so sure that I would be competent enough to ask somebody like Nina to dance even if I felt confident enough-if you get my drift!!!

ChrisA
24th-September-2004, 09:05 PM
I am not so sure that I would be competent enough to ask somebody like Nina to dance even if I felt confident enough-if you get my drift!!!

I neither feel confident enough nor competent enough to ask Nina to dance.

But I do anyway. :flower:

I don't feel quite as crap as I used to when I dance with her these days... so I guess I must have improved a little bit.

But this is the point... pressing on through the feelings of 'I'm not good enough' to get better and improve despite them.

Like I sometimes say to the beginners when they say they're not good enough to dance in freestyle yet...

"You aren't gonna get any better sitting there."

Chris

jivecat
24th-September-2004, 09:21 PM
I think most of us would admit to preferring to dance with a certain circle of friends but I personally would be quite happy to dance with anybody that took the trouble to ask.I am not so sure that I would be competent enough to ask somebody like Nina to dance even if I felt confident enough-if you get my drift!!!


My personal definition of a hotshot is someone who is a good dancer but gives the impression (e.g. by turning offers to dance down, failure to show polite appreciation, not smiling, withholding eyecontact etc) that some, perhaps most, partners are not good enough for him/her. So, unlike djtrev, :flower: they are not happy to dance with just ANYONE even though they have taken the trouble to ask.

I entirely take Chris A's point that the best way to deal with hotshots is to stop worrying about the reasons behind their behaviour and to just get on with it. This seems only sensible but lets hotshots off the hook for their appalling bad manners.

I agree that one way to get people to dance with you is to improve your own dancing skills- but I have often been told that dancing with people of a higher standard is a good way to do this. I personally think that as people improve, spending some time dancing with others lower in the pecking order (yes, I am being ironic) is a worthwhile reinvestment of dance skills, and personally very rewarding. My view of hotshots is that they see themselves as exempt from this chain of responsibility and tend to only see value in other people on their own terms. Although this rather obnoxious attitude isn't just confined to people who are very good dancers. I can see Chris's point that it is easy to make superficial judgements about people which turn out to be untrue; but people only get labelled hotshots after demonstrating this kind of behaviour fairly consistently. Perhaps you'd better make out a case for hotshots being lovable but deeply misunderstood, Chris.

I, (like most women on the Ceroc scene, I would think) spend quite a bit of time dancing with um, no-hopers, and doing my best to smile nicely at them so as not to bruise their fragile little egos. So when Mr Snake-hips turns me down without any obviously genuine reason I start to wonder when my ego gets a look in. Grrrr. Hell hath no bleedin' fury, mate!

djtrev
24th-September-2004, 10:09 PM
On reflection regarding this subject.
While I certainly dont see myself as a hotshot and I am quite willing to dance with anyone that asks,there are an awful lot of women that I would try to avoid and certainly one that could possibly put me off MJ for ever!!
As far as missing beginners classes is concerned;I have to say that having danced in the line for the best part of 2years,4 nights a week it is getting increasingly hard to motivate myself to constantly go over the same beginner moves week in week out with an ever increasing number of people who have no idea of rhythm.
I am not a "taxi" dancer as such but it can be bl**dy hard work.

Leo
24th-September-2004, 11:30 PM
Any further questions?

Whitebeard
24th-September-2004, 11:31 PM
..... dancing with um, no-hopers, and doing my best to smile nicely at them so as not to bruise their fragile little egos.

Is that (metaphorically) me I wonder ..... how am I to know ???

Shall I bow out gracefully or in a huff ??
Or, am I made of sterner stuff !!

Leo
24th-September-2004, 11:52 PM
The question in question to which you question may, or may not be metaphorical.

Do YOU feel it to be?

Who am I to say how you feel about such a thing.

Maybe you would like to discuss this further with you doctor over a course of anti-depresants.

ChrisA
25th-September-2004, 12:43 AM
I entirely take Chris A's point that the best way to deal with hotshots is to stop worrying about the reasons behind their behaviour and to just get on with it. This seems only sensible but lets hotshots off the hook for their appalling bad manners.

Yep, I take this point, especially when they don't meet your eyes on the dance floor. Much worse than being turned down, that...

However, I ought to play devil's advocate and suggest that the hotshots have paid their money and can do what they please. They can sit out the lesson, chat to their friends, dance just with the people they like dancing with... they've paid for the privilege. The teachers and the taxis are the only ones there with an obligation.


My view of hotshots is that they see themselves as exempt from this chain of responsibility and tend to only see value in other people on their own terms. Although this rather obnoxious attitude isn't just confined to people who are very good dancers.

I've come to see this behaviour as less and less obnoxious over time. Maybe because it's not such a problem for me personally any more.


I can see Chris's point that it is easy to make superficial judgements about people which turn out to be untrue; but people only get labelled hotshots after demonstrating this kind of behaviour fairly consistently.

I agree with this too. But when I was on the receiving end of it, I became more and more determined to get better. Effectively, I worked (and am still working) my way up. When I used to dance totally unmusically, someone who obviously (and quite rightly) did not enjoy a dance with me made some very helpful suggestions to me at the end. It turned out that the straightness of her reaction to my dancing, and the honesty of her feedback made a huge difference - far better than any charity dances I might otherwise have received.

So now I'd rather know when I'm not giving someone pleasure with my dancing. And if it means they turn me down, then so be it. Much better that than they fake it, smile, and endure three minutes. Because, girls, I know when you're doing it, believe me :what:


Perhaps you'd better make out a case for hotshots being lovable but deeply misunderstood, Chris.

Only that it turned out that the people who turned me down and looked bored when dancing with me had reasons, and weren't actually bored.



I, (like most women on the Ceroc scene, I would think) spend quite a bit of time dancing with um, no-hopers, and doing my best to smile nicely at them so as not to bruise their fragile little egos.

Not with me, please. And if they really are no-hopers, I think it's kinder for them to find something else to do :really:

I love dancing with beginners. They're great - they try really hard, they (mostly) don't yank, and are very receptive to suggestions. And I get a big kick out of the results of encouraging them.

But there are hordes of intermediates out there that yank me about, try to lead me, resist any attempt at interpreting the music, and go ballistic at the faintest suggestion that they might try something different. These ones, I avoid for the most part, now - out of self-protection as much as anything, but also because I get nothing out of dancing with them, and they won't let me give anything either.

Chris

Whitebeard
25th-September-2004, 12:43 AM
The question in question to which you question may, or may not be metaphorical..
So many questions.




Do YOU feel it to be?
No, but I could be wrong.



Who am I to say how you feel about such a thing.
Who indeed.




Maybe you would like to discuss this further with you doctor over a course of anti-depresants.
Don't do mind doctors and am quite a happy guy really (and stern with it).

Now, if you were to offer me councelling ..... I'd shove your teeth down your throat. Assuming you're five foot nothing and as weak as a robin !!!

Andy McGregor
25th-September-2004, 01:03 AM
However, I ought to play devil's advocate and suggest that the hotshots have paid their money and can do what they please. They can sit out the lesson, chat to their friends, dance just with the people they like dancing with... they've paid for the privilege. The teachers and the taxis are the only ones there with an obligation.

This attituded is unsustainable. If everyone took it MJ would die out as beginners would have no experienced dancers to learn from. It would be like someone had climbed the tree and pulled the ladder up after themselves.

And if this attitude is unsustainable for all, why should we tolerate it in the few? Hotshots are selfish and our nice cosy MJ village doesn't need them :angry:

On the subject of asking Nina to dance, don't be scared of the death stare, it's not fatal, just very, very scary. And when you actually dance with her she's always nice :waycool:

.. but you do get the same feeling as you get with your video recorder, there are probably loads of buttons that you're not pressing and functions that you don't even know exist :tears:

Gus
25th-September-2004, 01:17 AM
And if this attitude is unsustainable for all, why should we tolerate it in the few? Hotshots are selfish and our nice cosy MJ village doesn't need them :angry:Sorry but I have to sya that ChrisA has a point. Mj is many things to many people. At the heart of the major organisations its purely business. Ceroc, blitz et al aren't there as charities ... they are there to make a buck ... remember that the next time you come over all misty eye'd about this Mj thing.

For others, there is a real desire to pass on what they have learned/experinced. Without these people, as Andy alludes to, the development of MJ would be a lot slower.

And then there are those who pay their money and who just go to dance. Flame me if you like but I have times when I fit into this category. I've spent much of the last five years teaching and coaching, sometimes onduty (whether formnally or informally) four times in a week. Sometimes I just like to dance for me, pick who I want to dance with and have a blast. WHY NOT?? Is that such a sin?

under par
25th-September-2004, 07:54 AM
Only that it turned out that the people who turned me down and looked bored when dancing with me had reasons, and weren't actually bored.
Chris

Its a bit like lots of ladies say I look frightened or worried when I dance with them. It is my face for "i'm concentrating ".

I am always bouncing with happiness and joy inside but the mind /brain will NOT allow me to look happy and dance well.

Hey I do try, but at the end of the day I am happy and feel great, I might have a face that looks like thunder but I can't see it. :whistle:

Sorry ladies I must try harder to concentrate and smile at same time. :yeah:

Andy McGregor
25th-September-2004, 10:21 AM
Sorry but I have to sya that ChrisA has a point. Mj is many things to many people. At the heart of the major organisations its purely business. Ceroc, blitz et al aren't there as charities ... they are there to make a buck ... remember that the next time you come over all misty eye'd about this Mj thing.

I'm not misty eyed about MJ, I'm realistic. If as ChrisA says, there are no Hotshots but lovely people who are being misunderstood we have a very different situation. I'm sure these 'lovely' people would be moritified if they realised the impression they were creating.

And let's consider the business side of things. Does having a group of dancers sitting at the side laughing and chatting (and occasionally pointing :what: ) during the lesson add to the experience for those of us trying to get the lesson. Does being turned down by that great dancer or dancing with that bored-looking woman improve your night? I don't think so! I think having people who are perceived as hotshots makes a night less attractive and is likely to prompt lesser dancers to go to a class that's more friendly - or even stay home and watch the telly :tears:

So, what's to be done? Maybe the organiser could explain to those people exhibiting hotshot behavior how they're seen by lesser dancers and ask them to change their ways - after all, as ChrisA says, they're not really Hotshots at all :whistle:


It's a bit like lots of ladies say I look frightened or worried when I dance with them. It is my face for "I'm concentrating".

I've seen that face, I think it's Angelic :flower:

.. it's UP's smiley face looming from 15 feet above me that's scary :sick:

jivecat
25th-September-2004, 10:37 AM
Is that (metaphorically) me I wonder ..... how am I to know ???

Shall I bow out gracefully or in a huff ??
Or, am I made of sterner stuff !!


I doubt very much if you're a "no-hoper", in my own unpleasantly judgemental phrase! You sound much too keen. My definition of a no-hoper is that they have no awareness of any of the physical or personal skills that might make dancing a pleasure, or if they do have a glimmer, think it is not necessary for them to acquire them. :eek:

Please note, I think smiling is strictly optional when dealing with the second category, though recommended when dealing with the first. They can't help it, after all.

Hope I will get a dance with you one day, Whitebeard. Trouble is if I smile, you'll think I'm faking it!! :o

jivecat
25th-September-2004, 11:07 AM
........... I became more and more determined to get better.

Ditto.



Effectively, I worked (and am still working) my way up. When I used to dance totally unmusically, someone who obviously (and quite rightly) did not enjoy a dance with me made some very helpful suggestions to me at the end. It turned out that the straightness of her reaction to my dancing, and the honesty of her feedback made a huge difference - far better than any charity dances I might otherwise have received.

I've only just got to the stage where I might tentatively suggest that the way someone's lead could be improved. And I would be very cautious about what I said and who I said it to. And if I have given feedback (i.e. criticised) I make a point of following it up with regular dances so that the recipient knows it is not personal.



So now I'd rather know when I'm not giving someone pleasure with my dancing. And if it means they turn me down, then so be it. Much better that than they fake it, smile, and endure three minutes. Because, girls, I know when you're doing it, believe me :what:


But then is it exactly faking it if you smile to give encouragement or reassurance to someone who is trying hard even if the dancing is a bit dodgy? Even if it is a different kind from that smile of pure pleasure you get when the dance goes like a dream.




But there are hordes of intermediates out there that yank me about, try to lead me, resist any attempt at interpreting the music, and go ballistic at the faintest suggestion that they might try something different. These ones, I avoid for the most part, now - out of self-protection as much as anything, but also because I get nothing out of dancing with them, and they won't let me give anything either.

Chris

:blush: Please, please take me out and shoot me if I get like this. Perhaps I already am. How would I know? I do know (from observation) that it's very easy to offend experienced dancers by commenting on their dancing!

jivecat
25th-September-2004, 11:12 AM
And then there are those who pay their money and who just go to dance. Flame me if you like but I have times when I fit into this category. I've spent much of the last five years teaching and coaching, sometimes onduty (whether formnally or informally) four times in a week. Sometimes I just like to dance for me, pick who I want to dance with and have a blast. WHY NOT?? Is that such a sin?


But you will also accept dances with complete strangers, and manage a smile and a friendly word. So, no, probably not such a sin.

ChrisA
25th-September-2004, 11:45 AM
:blush: Please, please take me out and shoot me if I get like this. Perhaps I already am. How would I know? I do know (from observation) that it's very easy to offend experienced dancers by commenting on their dancing!
Well, you probably aren't. But even if you are, it's not the end of the world, cos you can fix anything if you want to enough. I had a tendency to yank a bit in my dancing past - and I managed to fix that.

If you wanted to find out you could pick someone with a very light yet positive and preferably smooth lead that you already like dancing with and ask them :flower:

Anyone that goes all huffy if you comment constructively on their dancing needs a slap. Feedback is fab IMO, and the more I get the better, and the quicker I'll improve.

Maybe the ones that react like this aren't as good as they think :waycool: :whistle:

Chris

Andy McGregor
25th-September-2004, 12:01 PM
. I had a tendency to spank a bit in my dancing past -

:innocent:


Anyone that goes all huffy if you comment constructively on their dancing needs a slap. Feedback is fab IMO, and the more I get the better, and the quicker I'll improve.


This is a difficult area. Who do you take this constructive advice from? You must salute the person brave enough to give you the benfit of their advice and thank them for that. But how do you know you should take any notice of it? For example, at one venue I visited I was told by the Taxi dancer that I should bounce my hand to mark the beat ...

Gus
25th-September-2004, 12:09 PM
This is a difficult area. Who do you take this constructive advice from? You must salute the person brave enough to give you the benfit of their advice and thank them for that. But how do you know you should take any notice of it? For example, at one venue I visited I was told by the Taxi dancer that I should bounce my hand to mark the beat ...Well said ... and when someone works out a universal solution to this connundrum please let me know.

MartinHarper
25th-September-2004, 03:05 PM
if they really are no-hopers, I think it's kinder for them to find something else to do

A friend of mine told me a story about some guy who didn't "get it"; couldn't even dance on the beat. For several months. One day, she had a dance with him, and found he had done the butterfly from chrysalis thing; "no hoper" to fantastic dancer, overnight.


the hotshots have paid their money and can do what they please. They can sit out the lesson, chat to their friends, dance just with the people they like dancing with... they've paid for the privilege.

Certainly they can do that. Similarly, they can turn up from their day job in the fish factory without showering. However, if they do so, then they're breaking social norms, and they have to accept the consequences of that, one of which is being dismissed as "hotshots".

I would not say that hotshots are evil, or that they are sinning. I'm merely pointing out what I think is fairly obvious: our actions have consequences, and our self-justifications don't protect us from those consequences.

Lynn
25th-September-2004, 04:12 PM
Feedback is fab IMO, and the more I get the better, and the quicker I'll improve. :yeah: Feedback is essential to any learning process. I asked for some constructive feedback recently (which was much appreciated :flower: ) - you normally have to ask for the 'negative' feedback as it isn't usually volunteered, but its very helpful. It may be verbal (the best kind) focussing on what you need to improve, or just how people dance with you and their responses - and a refusal to dance might be taken as feedback...You will need it if you want to go on learning and no matter how good you get there will always be more to learn. :clap:

But maybe that's one of the distinguishing marks of hotshots - they think that they have nothing to learn from the majority of other dancers?

ChrisA
25th-September-2004, 06:46 PM
Anyone that goes all huffy if you comment constructively on their dancing needs a slap.


This is a difficult area. Who do you take this constructive advice from? You must salute the person brave enough to give you the benfit of their advice and thank them for that. But how do you know you should take any notice of it? For example, at one venue I visited I was told by the Taxi dancer that I should bounce my hand to mark the beat ...

Well, I was specifically saying that it's going all huffy that deserves slapping. Not saying you should always take the advice.

I would put a fair amount of store by how the advice was given. For example, I once witnessed someone I know to be a terrible dancer saying to a lady in the class, rather grumpily:

"You might at least try to follow"

Now even with the worst anticipators in the world, I would never say anything remotely like that, and I was hard pushed not to slap him there and then. I did dance with the girl afterwards, who actually followed very nicely!

On the extremely rare occasions I say anything when not wearing the taxi shirt, it's ususally prefaced with something like

"Would you mind if I made a suggestion"

... and it's usually with someone that I've danced several times with, and who knows my dancing. I'm careful to only say anything to someone I think will be receptive (having long since given up saying anything to battleaxe yanker ladies whom I can now recognise a mile off), and only if they are obviously keen to hear, make a simple point - and be ready to demonstrate and explain very briefly what I'm talking about.

It usually goes down very well.

I realise that your taxi dancer example would fit the criteria I use - but there's always an exception :D

I twust you stwuck him vewwy wuffly, centuwion? :whistle:

Chris

jivecat
26th-September-2004, 12:26 PM
"You might at least try to follow"



:rofl: :rofl: Some people, huh?


On the extremely rare occasions I say anything when not wearing the taxi shirt, it's ususally prefaced with something like

"Would you mind if I made a suggestion"

... and it's usually with someone that I've danced several times with, and who knows my dancing. I'm careful to only say anything to someone I think will be receptive (having long since given up saying anything to battleaxe yanker ladies whom I can now recognise a mile off), and only if they are obviously keen to hear, make a simple point - and be ready to demonstrate and explain very briefly what I'm talking about.

It usually goes down very well.
Chris

Sounds like good advice. So, if I hear those words sounding ominously in my ear I'll presume it's you? :flower:

ChrisA
26th-September-2004, 05:11 PM
However, I ought to play devil's advocate and suggest that the hotshots have paid their money and can do what they please. They can sit out the lesson, chat to their friends, dance just with the people they like dancing with... they've paid for the privilege. The teachers and the taxis are the only ones there with an obligation.


This attitude is unsustainable. If everyone took it MJ would die out as beginners would have no experienced dancers to learn from. It would be like someone had climbed the tree and pulled the ladder up after themselves.

Piffle. This is like saying that you shouldn't withdraw money from the bank cos if everyone did it the bank would go out of business.

The point is, everyone doesn't do it - and even the ones that do, don't do it all the time - or if any do, there aren't enough of them for it to matter a bit. The only reason that some people feel bad because of their encounters with hotshots is that it reminds them that they aren't as good dancers as they'd like to be yet.



And if this attitude is unsustainable for all, why should we tolerate it in the few? Hotshots are selfish and our nice cosy MJ village doesn't need them :angry:

It's not up to 'us' to tolerate it or not tolerate it. In the few cases of individuals who just want to dance with their favourites, it simply isn't anybody's business but theirs.

And it's not even as if, if the hotshots suddenly deigned to dance with the plebs, the plebs would suddenly rocket to superdance status - I could dance with Nina all day every day for a month and unless she was actually teaching me, I would hardly be any better than I am now.

But she would probably be completely sick of dancing, and would probably want a rest. We plebs also have to consider what the outstanding dancers get out of their dance nights too - and we don't have the right to make their night crap just because ours would be better.

If we want to dance with people, we should also be people they want to dance with, IMHO.

Here's an illustration:

If I wanted to improve as a tennis player, it would do me no good at all to play competitively against Roger Federer, Leyton Hewitt, or even Tim Henman. I would get nothing out of being thrashed by them constantly - and they wouldn't enjoy playing against me. So we all lose.

Much better for me to play in a ladder, where I challenge and am challenged by people around my standard - and to get coaching from the pros (and pay for it). Gradually I would improve, and would gain respect from working my way up the ladder.

I think something very similar applies in the MJ world - someone made a non-serious reference to the "pecking order" - but I think it's real. I can't believe I'm alone in having felt totally intimidated by the idea of dancing with almost everyone at the beginning, then gradually fewer and fewer as I have literally worked my way up. There are still people I feel nervous dancing with - but IMO it's up to me to do at least half the work and become someone they want to dance with too.

Here's another illustration:

I know quite a few very high-standard MJ dancers, who have taken to hiding out for much of some of the freestyle nights they attend, simply cos they are constantly deluged with requests for dances with people that they don't want to dance with, and feel hidebound by the culture that says you should dance with everyone.

So the net result is that these people are not available to dance with the not quite so good - who also want to improve and who maybe have the chance to be in the next generation of superstars.

The point is, these people have already done a lot for the MJ world on their way up the ladder. And now it's their turn. Rather than moaning about them for choosing to dance only with the people that switch them on, we should encourage them - so that they can become even better, be even more amazing to watch in freestyle, competitions and cabarets, even more inspiring as role models. These are often the people that bring the greatest innovation to MJ; without them we all lose out.

If they spend all their time dancing with plebs like 'us', they will get worse, not better, and 'we' won't improve as we'd like to. All that will happen is that we'll be able to bathe momentarily in a little glory by being able to dance with one of the elite.


Now, I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice if the hotshots occasionally danced with beginners. But maybe they once spent a great deal of time dancing with beginners, and they want to dance for themselves now.

I still maintain that anyone that feels bad about hotshots and whom they dance with or don't dance with should concentrate on improving their dancing in any way they can. Don't be afraid of working your way up in the dance world, just as in any other walk of life, and don't expect something for nothing.

Chris

bigdjiver
26th-September-2004, 05:57 PM
Here's an illustration:

If I wanted to improve as a tennis player, it would do me no good at all to play competitively against Roger Federer, Leyton Hewitt, or even Tim Henman. I would get nothing out of being thrashed by them constantly - and they wouldn't enjoy playing against me. So we all lose.The tennis players might enjoy practising first serves with someone to collect the balls, and returning a poor serve to perfection.
As a beginner I have played chess and card games against people lots better than me. I was thrashed, but I did learn. The card players certainly enjoyed it, money was involved. Some of the chess players certainly enjoyed demonstrating their expertise, and there is still the skill involved in terminating the games as quickly as possible, and of exploring deviations from standard openings.

bigdjiver
26th-September-2004, 06:03 PM
I accept that some people do not want to dance with me, though sometimes I feel that it is based on prejudice, and it hurts. As for "no-hopers", I come across very few that come into that category, as I would categorise them, but I will ask them to dance with them if they enjoy it.

ChrisA
26th-September-2004, 06:08 PM
The tennis players might enjoy practising first serves with someone to collect the balls, and returning a poor serve to perfection.

But dancers want to feel like dancers, not the equivalent of ball-boys. And the top-notch tennis players practise with ex-top-notch tennis players. If they wanted beginners to serve against, don't you think we'd know about it?


As a beginner I have played chess and card games against people lots better than me. I was thrashed, but I did learn. The card players certainly enjoyed it, money was involved.
Money involved? Ah well, that equates to private lessons. No argument there.

But when dancing we're not supposed to give the beginners the feeling that they're crap, are we? We're supposed to dance down to their level, only stretching them enough and no more than they can handle. Which is in fact coaching, just without words. Not really the same thing at all.


Some of the chess players certainly enjoyed demonstrating their expertise, and there is still the skill involved in terminating the games as quickly as possible, and of exploring deviations from standard openings.
I think you're demonstrating the fact that all metaphors can be stretched only so far :flower:

Chris

ChrisA
26th-September-2004, 06:13 PM
I accept that some people do not want to dance with me, though sometimes I feel that it is based on prejudice, and it hurts.
Prejudice against what? Ability?

Why does it hurt? Because you don't like to be reminded how good you aren't? That's why it hurts me when I experience it, plenty often enough.

But that's life. I still say, if you want them to want to dance with you, learn how to dance so that they do. Work your way up rather than expecting charity.

Otherwise dance with other people. Or alternatively ask them to dance and put up with being turned down sometimes.

Don't forget, there are lots of us average intermediates and beginners clamouring for their time. It's fine dancing with one beginner, but 50 in a night? They have their enjoyment to find too, you know.

Chris

MartinHarper
26th-September-2004, 07:05 PM
The point is, everyone doesn't do it - and even the ones that do, don't do it all the time - or if any do, there aren't enough of them for it to matter a bit.

This is true. One reason this is true is because of the culture: because being a "hotshot" is seen as uncool, because accepting requests to dance is the normal thing to do. If MJ folks didn't look down on such things, I expect it would be a lot more common.

Having said that, there are two sides to this: those being requested to dance, and those doing the requesting. In days gone past, when gentlemen did all the asking, it was written that a gentleman's duty is to ensure that all ladies present have opportunities to dance, paying particular attention to those ladies who might otherwise not be asked. Similarly, a gentleman would not monopolise a lady if other gentlemen wished to dance with her, and a gentleman would never ask a lady to dance if she wished not to dance with him.

While many MJ venues make a point of emphasising the expectation to accept requests to dance, I wonder if perhaps there should be more emphasis placed on when it is appropriate to make requests. While there is much in older social customs I am glad we have lost, I do feel that this is something that could be ressurected. Perhaps then we shall avoid the problems that Chris mentions, where the better dancers are deluged with undesired requests to dance.

Clearly we need a label for those poor/intermediate dancers who only ever ask advanced dancers to dance. Perhaps "Wannabe hotshots" would not be too unkind?


I could dance with Nina all day every day for a month

Certainly there are two extremes: at one end, we have advanced dancers who only dance with other advanced dancers, and at the other end we have advanced dancers who only dance with beginners. However, I suspect there is a Third Way, which involves spending some time dancing with people of all abilities.


even Tim Henman

heh. "even". He's not that bad, you know. :)
Still, tennis is competitive, where jive is (meant to be) collaborative. A mismatched tennis game is little fun for anyone, whereas a mismatched dance can be just as enjoyable as a well-matched dance.


[with beginners] We're supposed to dance down to their level, only stretching them enough and no more than they can handle.

Hmm. I dance differently depending on the skill of the person I'm dancing with. I rarely feel that I'm dancing "down". This is perhaps more indicative of my dancing ability than anything else. :) It'd make for an interesting thread.

ChrisA
26th-September-2004, 11:34 PM
whereas a mismatched dance can be just as enjoyable as a well-matched dance.

Maybe, but not for the same reasons.

Chris

tiger
26th-September-2004, 11:59 PM
Thank you Chris A. You've raised some very good points. (i cant be bothered to list all the qoutes).

Some 'hotshots' must have been dancing for a number of years now+ have 'done their bit' for beginners. Surely responsibilty for bringing on novices, would be that of taxi dancers+teachers(who in some cases go home not long after the lesson) and to a lesser degree the other dancers present.

jivecat
27th-September-2004, 09:08 AM
....i cant be bothered to list all the qoutes).

How refreshingly honest! Why can't we all be more direct? :hug: :flower:


Surely responsibilty for bringing on novices, would be that of taxi dancers+teachers(who in some cases go home not long after the lesson) and to a lesser degree the other dancers present.

There are many teachers who stay the full evening at the venue dancing with all and sundry. (Even though it was implied in another thread that they are only actually paid to teach the 2 lessons). IMO they do a lot to promote a good overall social atmosphere as well increasing the skills and confidence of the clientele. But I have also encountered teachers who at the end of the lesson will spout the usual Ceroc formula about asking everyone to dance etc and then follow it up by dancing with a few of the more select dancers before sloping off home.

In my experience taxi dancers only see it as their responsibility to help people who are wearing pink stickers or known to be very recent beginners. I remember experiencing quite a dip in confidence when I wasn't being supported by the taxi dancers any more. Incidentally, that was a time when I could easily have given up Ceroc as attending the classes then was very daunting. Thankfully I didn't.

But we're not really talking about novices. I think the people who might benefit most from dancing with hotshots are intermediates seeking to improve who have already learnt most of what the taxi dancers can teach them and might even be taxi dancers themselves.

Wanabee hotshots? It's not completely unknown for experienced lady dancers to survey the room, sigh heavily and murmur "There's just nobody here to dance with." I've even heard this cited as the reason for giving up Ceroc. But I'm with Chris A on this one - get real, and get out and learn to do it properly.

I note that the next Jive Addiction offering is to be an intermediates and above workshop weekend. Now, is that going to be a "solution" to this problem? I assume that the overall standard of dancers attending will be higher, though probably still not high enough to satisfy an incorrigible Mr Darcy. I presume that the teaching on offer will address the needs of intermediates+ rather than aiming at the lowest common denominator. Is this going to be helpful or will it create an even stronger feeling of elitism, as it creams off the better dancers? Will it foster cliquiness? Is the Ceroc mantra of "Ask anyone, accept everyone" valuable in any way? Will we miss it when it's gone?

On the subject of a "Third Way": at Southport I was asked to dance by someone well-known on the dance circuit who gave me a lovely dance and at the end thanked me charmingly and said something to the effect of me being one of his "lucky dip quota" of unknown partners. Part of my definition of a hotshot is that they wouldn't bother with this as they would assume that people not already on their A list (or at least someone else's) were not worth dancing with. Which is why I get so irritated at being turned down by them- how do they know I'm cr@p until they've danced with me?

Gus
27th-September-2004, 11:06 AM
......Which is why I get so irritated at being turned down by them- how do they know I'm cr@p until they've danced with me?Ettiquette and manners are really learnt at your home club and I'm not sure how many clubs try to instill this need to dance around. What we've tried recently is at our club nights and freestyles is to announce at least one true 'dance th a stranger' track where we challenge everyone to get a dnace with somone they have never danced with before. Not everyone takes up the challeneg ( :sick: ) but its been reasonably succesfull.

bigdjiver
27th-September-2004, 12:10 PM
But dancers want to feel like dancers, not the equivalent of ball-boys. :yeah: The dance equivalent I call "Maypoling", (from dancing around the Maypole, do they still do that?) where the lady just wants to dance around me. You are right, I do not like it much, but I have learned to tolerate it.


But when dancing we're not supposed to give the beginners the feeling that they're crap, are we? We're supposed to dance down to their level, only stretching them enough and no more than they can handle. Which is in fact coaching, just without words. Not really the same thing at all. The teaching phrase is "within their zone of proximal development."
I believe that we should not expect them to do anything that they cannot, but we are free to demonstrate anything that they can appreciate. I would not criticize a lady that did a double spin, or a break with a beginner, unless it completely threw him.


I think you're demonstrating the fact that all metaphors can be stretched only so far :flower:
Chris :yeah: It comes from associating with expert metaphor stretchers ...

bigdjiver
27th-September-2004, 12:31 PM
Prejudice against what? Ability?

Why does it hurt? Because you don't like to be reminded how good you aren't? That's why it hurts me when I experience it, plenty often enough.

But that's life. I still say, if you want them to want to dance with you, learn how to dance so that they do. Work your way up rather than expecting charity. I have no problem with being rejected on ability, or on any real defect. Prejudice is where you are being pre-judged, without having the chance to make your case. I will avoid the minefield of examples. :Chicken:


Otherwise dance with other people. Or alternatively ask them to dance and put up with being turned down sometimes. Which is what I do.

Graham
27th-September-2004, 12:44 PM
In my experience taxi dancers only see it as their responsibility to help people who are wearing pink stickers or known to be very recent beginners. I remember experiencing quite a dip in confidence when I wasn't being supported by the taxi dancers any more. Incidentally, that was a time when I could easily have given up Ceroc as attending the classes then was very daunting. Thankfully I didn't.
The primary responsibilities of the taxi dancer are to make people feel welcome, and to support beginners / new members. I can't speak for all taxi dancers, but for myself I will certainly offer support to anyone who asks for it. While I am on duty, if someone who is not strictly a beginner asks me to dance I will either dance with them or defer until I finish taxiing, depending on my workload.

Dreadful Scathe
27th-September-2004, 01:01 PM
Ettiquette and manners are really learnt at your home club and I'm not sure how many clubs try to instill this need to dance around. What we've tried recently is at our club nights and freestyles is to announce at least one true 'dance th a stranger' track where we challenge everyone to get a dnace with somone they have never danced with before. Not everyone takes up the challeneg ( :sick: ) but its been reasonably succesfull.
thats a good idea that - something that the various events should probably introduce :). In fact maybe party tonights could introduce 'dance with a stranger competitions' - with the 1st heat happening as soon as the doors open (avoids too many entrants)and the finals maybe 2 hours later, itll only be a few tracks out of the evening. Fancy mousemats as prizes. (I do like my mousemats from the BFG) :)

Gadget
27th-September-2004, 08:45 PM
I see a few points emerging from this thread:

* Not all "advanced" dancers are hotshots. Not all hotshots are "advanced" dancers. It is nothing to do with ability - it is to do with attitude: if they make you feel unworthy in their manorisms, comments or actions towards yourself - then they are hotshots.

* Refusal to dance is not the sole aspect of being a hotshot: Any number of good dancers will have turned down a dance or two - they must have been dancing a fairly long time before being that good. It's the attitude used in the rebuke.

* Dancing down south seems to be predudice towards who is better than who. How good a dancer is. Predudice against ability. From my observations and comments people have made, there is a huge (and welcome) difference in dancing in Scotland and dancing down south:
We don't try to be better than anyone else - we just try to be better. :waycool:

* You cannot use sporting anologies to describe dancing - there is no competitor: it is a colaborative venture. Every time you dance, you can learn something - be it with a complete novice, an intermediate dancer or a twelve times champion who teaches advanced techniques in the subtalties of body rolls.
The "hotshot" will assume that if anything goes "wrong" within a dance, then it's their partner's fault. It's not: It takes two to dance well, and it takes two to screw it up. The lead needs to speak clearer and the follower listen harder.

* I like the "dance with a stranger" track, but I think that the whole 'problem' would even it's self out if the experianced regulars became less of a "stranger" to the newbies - then a self-fulfilling ettequite rule of having a welcoming community would emerge.

Tiggerbabe
27th-September-2004, 10:47 PM
We don't try to be better than anyone else - we just try to be better. :waycool:

Great quote Gadget - I think more people would be *happier/less stressed about their dancing* if they adopted this attitude - it might even stop them becoming hotshots in the first place :whistle:

ChrisA
27th-September-2004, 10:58 PM
* Dancing down south seems to be predudice towards who is better than who. How good a dancer is. Predudice against ability. From my observations and comments people have made, there is a huge (and welcome) difference in dancing in Scotland and dancing down south:

Well there's certainly a huge difference in the amount of fuss people make about it. I mean, when Clayton and Janine, or Will and Kate win (again) we don't tend to hear "Oh yes, and the Australian/English contingent put up a fantastic display". Whereas I'm forever hearing and reading some tongue-in-cheek yet faintly snide comment about how wonderful the Scots are compared with everyone else.

In my own experience, the Scots are lovely, as are the English - for the most part. I don't care what nationality the winners are, if the dancing's good. Why does anyone else have to make a big deal out of it???



The "hotshot" will assume that if anything goes "wrong" within a dance, then it's their partner's fault.
You don't know anything about what goes on inside an (alleged) hotshot's mind. You've already said you've never encountered them.

It's this sort of hearsay-based stereotyping that IMHO does as much to condition people's expectations, and thereby to damage the collaborative nature of the MJ world, as any amount of actual hotshotting, such that it exists.

Just stop it, will you??

Chris

Gadget
28th-September-2004, 12:17 AM
Well there's certainly a huge difference in the amount of fuss people make about it. I mean, when Clayton and Janine, or Will and Kate win (again) we don't tend to hear "Oh yes, and the Australian/English contingent put up a fantastic display". Whereas I'm forever hearing and reading some tongue-in-cheek yet faintly snide comment about how wonderful the Scots are compared with everyone else.
:rofl: Mainly because England is the centre of the universe and any winners are automatically assumed to come from this area. Occasionally we like to set the record straight. (Except for the Dundonians, who just like to show off :whistle: )

Look, this is the Ceroc Scotland forum, and while it promotes, encourages and thrives on contributions from around the world; we all know the names of the people who win from Scotland and have danced with most of them. Saying that they come from here or there is just a tag to prompt memory of those who have seen them, but are not sure if they caught the name. It's not primaraly intended as a "Scotland is great, way hay!" comment - (it's just nice to add that in when we can. :D) it's intended as a "local guys and gals done good" sort of thing where we can say "oh yea - I danced with them at the last party."


You don't know anything about what goes on inside an (alleged) hotshot's mind. You've already said you've never encountered them. my appologies if I was being unclear about what I said: I meant...
The "hotshot" will assume that if anything goes "wrong" within a dance, then it's their partner's fault. ...and they will make sure that their partner knows it, whether it's with a 'tut, sigh and frown' or going over every little bit of that move in a condesending and degrading manor. Again, it's attitude.


It's this sort of hearsay-based stereotyping that IMHO does as much to condition people's expectations, and thereby to damage the collaborative nature of the MJ world, as any amount of actual hotshotting, such that it exists.
No. - It paints a picture of a conseated, inconsiderate, self-absorbed and aloof dancer. It shows traits to avoid in ourselves and provides a contrast to all the other excelent dancers who are not "hotshots". They play a vital role in the MJ world, giving inspiration & style ideas for beginers and providing an anti-role-model in attitude.


Just stop it, will you??
:D no.

jivecat
28th-September-2004, 08:29 AM
We don't try to be better than anyone else - we just try to be better. :waycool:


Someone's been using a very similar quote (by Mikhail Baryshnikov ) as their tag line for weeks, but I can't think who it is. Still worth repeating though.


* I like the "dance with a stranger" track, but I think that the whole 'problem' would even it's self out if the experianced regulars became less of a "stranger" to the newbies - then a self-fulfilling ettequite rule of having a welcoming community would emerge.[/QUOTE]

I thought dancing with strangers was part of the fun. I just can't get my head round the mindset of people who would only dance within a small clique!

TheTramp
28th-September-2004, 08:39 AM
Someone's been using a very similar quote (by Mikhail Baryshnikov ) as their tag line for weeks, but I can't think who it is. Still worth repeating though.
Me.

Trampy

jivecat
28th-September-2004, 08:40 AM
=Gadget
Look, this is the Ceroc Scotland forum.........



ooooOOOOooweeh!! That's put us sassenachs in our places! :wink: :flower:

Andy McGregor
28th-September-2004, 08:42 AM
:D no.

:yeah:

ChrisA
28th-September-2004, 09:39 AM
my appologies if I was being unclear about what I said: I meant...
The "hotshot" will assume that if anything goes "wrong" within a dance, then it's their partner's fault. ...and they will make sure that their partner knows it, whether it's with a 'tut, sigh and frown' or going over every little bit of that move in a condesending and degrading manor. Again, it's attitude.

I know that's what you meant. You were perfectly clear. But as you've said, you haven't encountered any hotshots. Therefore you are speculating about what goes on inside a hotshot's mind.

Now you may have a set of characteristics in your mind that in your opinion are undesirable in a dancer, and it's perfectly within your rights to state this opinion.

But you're going a lot further than that, whether intentionally or not. You're making authoritative-sounding statements about other people's thoughts and attitudes, based on nothing at all except your speculation and other people's stated views about hotshots' behaviour.

And I'm suggesting this is not a good thing, since it encourages people to interpret (not "interperate", btw, goddammit :mad: ) people's behaviour in these terms.

And as I've said before, the people whose behaviour I used to suspect in this way aren't hotshots at all in their attitude. Sometimes they dance more with their closer circle of friends than with others, but there is nothing in them at all of a "condescending" or "degrading" attitude.

And even if they do "tut" how do you know whether they're impatient with their partner or with themselves for failing to lead their partner better?


No. - It paints a picture of a conseated, inconsiderate, self-absorbed and aloof dancer.
No. You're painting the picture - by associating attitudes you know nothing about with behaviour you apparently haven't even encountered.

I just think it's wrong to do this. By all means express an opinion about things you wouldn't like to do, but don't create character assassinations of people based on fictional and hearsay evidence.

Chris

CJ
28th-September-2004, 10:04 AM
They have their enjoyment to find too, you know.
Chris

Surely you mean "We?!?"


but don't create character assassinations of people based on fictional and hearsay evidence.
Chris

I don't remember anyone's character being called into question. Just the characteristics and traits of a particular group.

And do bear in mind: this is a forum and not a court of law. If it weren't for word of mouth, where would the MJ scene be?!? Would this forum exist in the magnificent form it is today? No.

Word of mouth is important within this particular activity, and because one is part of a negative aspect of it (and Hotshots are a negative aspect or else there wouldn't be SO MUCH said on the subject) that shouldn't encourage the "one" to demand evidence.

I have no idea how far up the ladder you are, Chris, although I have a good idea of how far up your own ass you are. I was trying not to reply to this thread, but some of the postings have reeked of self-importance.

In fact, one poster, might even be you, splits all MJers into 2 categories: the superduper and the yankers. Mmm, Yankers? Let me think: the Yankers and the.....

Makes you think, huh?

CJ
28th-September-2004, 10:12 AM
I forgot to say:

We live together; we have collective responsibilities...

Those that earn more money pay more taxes, many of those with a particular talent, eg art or music, feel duty bound to pass on their wealth of knowledge: it is almost a responsibility of being lucky enough to have that gift.

If it weren't for taxi dancers, more experienced dancers, etc showing, sharing, nurturing, etc where would we all be?

I'm sure Chris, you got to the heady heights of where you are all by yourself, without any help from anyone, so I am sure you feel quite justified in not needing to pass any nuggets on, show how special MJ can be to lesser dancers...

... and who would I be to argue with you?!? :wink:

ChrisA
28th-September-2004, 10:33 AM
I don't remember anyone's character being called into question. Just the characteristics and traits of a particular group.
Ah but which group? It's an imaginary group, since each person that feels slighted somehow by other dancers' behaviour towards them will have a different set of personal hotshots.


I have no idea how far up the ladder you are, Chris,
Not as far up it as I'd like to be.

But however far up it I am, I didn't get there by whingeing about people that wouldn't dance with me, or moaning about people spending time with their friends just because I didn't happen to be in their circle too. And I didn't spend my time in paranoia, wondering whether people not in the class were laughing at me (even if they were - I probably deserved it).


although I have a good idea of how far up your own ass you are.
Fair enough. But the view is better from where I am - just doing what I can to improve my dancing, rather than slagging off other people for their imaginary views.


In fact, one poster, might even be you, splits all MJers into 2 categories: the superduper and the yankers. Mmm, Yankers? Let me think: the Yankers and the.....

The only serious categorisation I've done was in the context of when it's Ok to turn down a dance. You ought to remember - you made this tired old joke at the time IIRC. But in case you don't, they were stinkers, yankers and perverts.



If it weren't for taxi dancers, more experienced dancers, etc showing, sharing, nurturing, etc where would we all be?

I couldn't agree more.


I'm sure Chris, you got to the heady heights of where you are all by yourself, without any help from anyone, so I am sure you feel quite justified in not needing to pass any nuggets on, show how special MJ can be to lesser dancers...

Another example of imagined attitudes. Obviously my five years as a taxi dancer at several different venues count for nothing in your jaundiced view of me.

But you're obviously confusing me with someone that gives a damn. The views and feelings of the beginners I dance with, week in, week out are rather more important to me than yours :flower:

Chris

CJ
28th-September-2004, 10:42 AM
The views and feelings of the beginners I dance with, week in, week out are rather more important to me than yours :flower:
Chris

And rightly so
:wink:

Andy McGregor
28th-September-2004, 11:35 AM
But however far up it I am, I didn't get there by whingeing about people that wouldn't dance with me, or moaning about people spending time with their friends just because I didn't happen to be in their circle too.

I can remember a happier ChrisA, in simpler times, lamenting about the dancers that turned their nose up at lesser dancers - I can even remember that he accused me of bringing one of them with me! :whistle:

And he was right too! That particular hotshot dancer is a dear friend and outside the dance hall she is a really lovely person. But once the music starts it's like I don't exist. She has her own agenda, which has Nigel Anderson at the top and me somewhere in the Appendix :tears: Does she do lessons? not MJ. Does she dance with beginners? Wouldn't be seen dead with a beginner (unless he's really, really sexy :devil: ). Is she a hotshot? You bet, and proud of it!

I can't remember the last time we danced - if the A-list dancers don't turn up she'd rather chat at the side. And as I'm always dancing we never get to talk inside the hall either.

Is ChrisA now saying that there are no Hotshots?

Divissima
28th-September-2004, 12:20 PM
I have been trying to avoid getting drawn into this thread, but I am a little concerned that it is starting to get a bit personal. Andy is quote close to identifying (although not openly naming) a friend of his as being a hotshot. I am just trying to sound a note of caution - maybe some people know Andy well enough to identify this individual. Maybe the individual concerned wouldn't mind...

Is she a hotshot? You bet, and proud of it!.. but maybe she wouldn't want to go on the Forum and say so. And maybe Chris wouldn't mind you making public the contents of a private exchange you had with him, but did you check with him first?

I don't think the thread needs to be about specific people being accused and defending their personal reputations. I think we can have a perfectly civil and reasonable discussion on a no-names basis.

Part of my reason for posting this is that I have fallen into the trap myself of making a statement on here - forgetting that the people concerned might read the forum and forgetting that they might be upset by what I've said :blush:

ChrisA
28th-September-2004, 12:25 PM
I can remember a happier ChrisA, in simpler times, lamenting about the dancers that turned their nose up at lesser dancers - I can even remember that he accused me of bringing one of them with me! :whistle:

Dunno about happier, or simpler :)

But sure, I've changed my views on all this quite radically over the last year or so. I guess it troubled me at the time - being turned down or getting the "bored" look from people I thought were much better dancers than I was.

They're still better than me, maybe not quite as much better than me than they were, but I've moved on to more productive ways of spending my energies than worrying about all this - and as I've got to know some of them I've discovered that they weren't thinking the things I thought they were.

I've even talked to one lady from my ex-hotshot list, and talked with her about the precise instance I ended up as a wounded sparrow when she turned me down and then almost immediately danced with another (much better) dancer... now unless she was lying, which I don't believe, the reasons for what happened were nothing to do with my imaginings at the time.



Is ChrisA now saying that there are no Hotshots?
No. I've already said not. I'm really just making two points:

- that in my experience there aren't as many as I used to imagine, and

- that we don't have the right to accuse people (especially in public, even if they're not named) of having attitudes for which we have little evidence.

Your example may be a genuine hotshot... but even if she is, so what? If her preference is just to dance with her favourites, then let her.

And maybe I've moved a little way in that direction, too. I still like dancing with beginners, I still taxi, I'm happy to help and encourage anyone that I can, and I almost always accept requests to dance. But I am fed up with dancing with the people that yank me about, unintentionally though it may be, aggravate my injuries, and make it impossible to lead them by anticipating. So I tend to ask my favourites rather than them. To whom I'm very grateful for dancing with me.

Should I be ashamed of such selfishness? Well I'm not :flower:

Chris

Gus
28th-September-2004, 12:27 PM
I have been trying to avoid getting drawn into this thread, but I am a little concerned that it is starting to get a bit personal.
Well said .... this discussion seems to go round in a loop every six months or so. There is a range of behaviour that some may see as selfish or condescending ... but I think for the most part they are in a very small minority ... SO WHY WORRY? Its fine to take the moral high ground but as long as these individual aren't directly hurting you .... lets just get on with the fun.

Having said that ... I think I (semi) defined etiquette guide available at all venues would be a GOOD THING. Any volunteers to be an editor?

Andy McGregor
28th-September-2004, 01:55 PM
Well said .... this discussion seems to go round in a loop every six months or so. There is a range of behaviour that some may see as selfish or condescending ... but I think for the most part they are in a very small minority ... SO WHY WORRY? Its fine to take the moral high ground but as long as these individual aren't directly hurting you .... lets just get on with the fun.

I agree with Gus. Personally I've not had a problem with Hotshot dancers for years. But I do see the way they turn down beginners as particularly rude and probably a setback to the growth of our hobby :mad:

Now that we have stickers for learners maybe we should have a sticker for people who would rather not dance with them. That way nobody would make the mistake of asking a hotshot for a dance :innocent:

spindr
28th-September-2004, 02:08 PM
There's an interesting almost parallel thread (with more "direct" views) elsewhere (http://www.salsamafia.com:8080/yabbee/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1252).

SpinDr.

Lory
28th-September-2004, 02:25 PM
There's an interesting almost parallel thread (with more "direct" views) elsewhere (http://www.salsamafia.com:8080/yabbee/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1252).

SpinDr.
Some of the post on that are really funny! :rofl:

Andy McGregor
28th-September-2004, 02:40 PM
Some of the post on that are really funny! :rofl:

But quite rude. And did anyone notice their avatars? I'm going to find a picture of me looking sexy/moody and put it up as my avatar - as soon as I find one. Could be a while ...

:tears:

Minnie M
28th-September-2004, 03:10 PM
Wow ! What an avatar Lory - did you find it in Scotland :whistle:

under par
28th-September-2004, 03:22 PM
Wow ! What an avatar Lory - did you find it in Scotland :whistle:


Lory yeah lovely avatar :drool: and lovely looking kilt you are wearing Minnie :drool: :hug:

baldrick
28th-September-2004, 03:24 PM
Wow ! What an avatar Lory - did you find it in Scotland :whistle:
Aye but it no a patch on the real thing. :wink:

Gadget
28th-September-2004, 03:50 PM
:rolleyes: here we go again... another long post... :sigh: {:D}

But you're going a lot further than that, whether intentionally or not. You're making authoritative-sounding statements about other people's thoughts and attitudes, based on nothing at all except your speculation and other people's stated views about hotshots' behaviour.

And I'm suggesting this is not a good thing, since it encourages people to interpret people's behaviour in these terms.
If someone is rude to you, then they are rude to you. If they are demeaning, and make you feel belittled, then that's rude. It does not matter what state of mind they are in, what their motivations are, or anything else: I made a carefull point to only relate how you perceive their actions. Nothing to do with the "hotshot"'s thoughts or intensions.

If you are saying that I am encouraging people that get refused to think on the person that refuses them as a "hotshot" (and all the baggage that goes with the label) then I am obviously not writing clear enough.
Is it rude when asked to dance for that person look you up and down, say "no" and return to a conversation? Is it civil to smile, say "thanks, but I really need to sit one out and get a drink"? Attitude, attitude, attitude.

If you think that I am encouraging people to label good dancers dancing with good dancers, showing off on the dance floor, as "hotshots" then I've not got my point accross. It's what they do after that dance and how they select their next target.

Sometimes they dance more with their closer circle of friends than with others, but there is nothing in them at all of a "condescending" or "degrading" attitude.
True. Why limit themselves to this circle of friends though? For some it simply has not occured to them to look beyond that - they like dancing with these people and see no need to dance with anyone else. They are 'safe' in the knowledge that there are no 'yankers' or 'perves' in this circle; if anyone ventures outside and finds a good dancer, they will be brought in and shared; it is a cosey enviroment to chat and share experiances; dancing with beginners and fresh faces is fine, because you can immediatly return to their little circle to get a decent dance and the newbie fades into the background again.
This is what they attend a night's dancing for - to be part of this circle and get some decent dances.

Are these people "Hotshots"?


And even if they do "tut" how do you know whether they're impatient with their partner or with themselves for failing to lead their partner better?Unless they say anything contrary, I assume that it's negative towards me - It's an assumption that I make regarding any comments I make as well; I ensure that my partner realises that they are directed inwards. Err on the side of caution. It's part of being a considerate dancer and thinking on your partner more than yourself.


No. You're painting the picture - by associating attitudes you know nothing about with behaviour you apparently haven't even encountered.
Not in MJ, no. Yes in Salsa. I've seen mild symptoms here and there of 'hotshot-itis' in MJ, but never the complete package.


I just think it's wrong to do this. By all means express an opinion about things you wouldn't like to do, but don't create character assassinations of people based on fictional and hearsay evidence.
It's bad to assasinate a fictional charater? :confused:
All I hope to have done is draw an outline. If your silouette matches some of that outline, perhaps my comments relate to you in those areas. Note that they are [u]my[/i] comments, opinions and personal views. Everyone is free to dance how they like, with whomever they like and treat them with whatever attitude they think is appropriate.


No. I've already said not. I'm really just making two points:
- that in my experience there aren't as many as I used to imagine, and
- that we don't have the right to accuse people (especially in public, even if they're not named) of having attitudes for which we have little evidence.
{I don't know how to word this - I've just deleted my past three attempts...}
Basically it's up to us to ensure that we are not perceived as having an eliteist attitude, not up to the other person to work it out for themselves. Attitude is only in part what you say, how you say it, when you say it etc. it's mainly how the other person picks up on this: communication. They have every "right" to accuse people of having an attitude if that's how they see it.

Divissima
28th-September-2004, 04:05 PM
Basically it's up to us to ensure that we are not perceived as having an eliteist attitude, not up to the other person to work it out for themselves. Attitude is only in part what you say, how you say it, when you say it etc. it's mainly how the other person picks up on this: communication. They have every "right" to accuse people of having an attitude if that's how they see it.I have to disagree with this, Gadget. While I understand what you are saying, the unfortunate fact is that I or you or any other MJ dancer (or any person on the face of this planet, for that matter) cannot keep everyone happy all of the time. Much as I might like to, I cannot control how someone else interprets my behaviour - I can try my best to be honest, straightforward, considerate, and many other good things - but that will never be enough on its own. How another person picks up on this is not simply communication - all of us know how easy it is to misinterpret something - it is also to do with their own complex personal emotions and attitudes. While they are entitled to their own view, I do not think they are entitled to accuse someone of having a particular attitude as you put it. There are always two sides to every story, both sides will of course believe their version is the correct/fairer one. So often there is no objective truth in matters of emotion.

Jooles
28th-September-2004, 04:05 PM
I tried to do the quote thing and call up the relevant posting that I wanted to comment on, but I've failed miserably.

Earlier somebody made the point that anybody who went huffy after constructive criticism deserves to be slapped.

Was it a joke? Because, if not, I have to say I find it very arrogant.

I do not share your 'humble' opinion and I certainly do not feel I derserve to be slapped because of it.

I love dancing for many reasons, one is that it's something I'm confident about, I feel I do it quite well. I really look forward to dancing the night away but I'd lose my enthusiasm for it if I was asked if I wanted feedback on my performance.

Dancing is just my hobby. I don't want to be the best in the world. I'd hate to be a 'yanker' but if I am, I am certainly not doing it on purpose. I'm just there to have a good time. NOT to be judged by people who are often not as good as they think they are.


Julie

Lou
28th-September-2004, 04:11 PM
There's an interesting almost parallel thread (with more "direct" views) elsewhere (http://www.salsamafia.com:8080/yabbee/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1252).
Brilliant site (even if my work connection won't let me look at the forum)! :grin:

I liked this page, too: http://www.salsamafia.com/Other_LeRoc.html

Graham
28th-September-2004, 04:26 PM
I think my perception of this issue has changed in a similar way to Chris A's over the last few months. I too am a taxi dancer who spends lots of my time dancing with beginners/improvers, and I enjoy it a great deal, and most certainly do not consider myself an elite dancer. Although I acknowledge that the way we express ourselves when declining to dance makes a difference, the rebutted party also brings his or her own baggage along and will often put negative connotations on a refusal however politely expressed. For example, this weekend I declined a dance near the end of the Saturday night - I wanted a rest, and I didn't fancy the track. The lady in question went off and found another partner, but in the mean time another lady came up and insisted on a dance. I danced the rest of the track with her, and intended to go and get a dance with the lady I'd refused but unfortunately didn't manage to catch her before the end. Now I have no idea whether she saw me dancing, but I could completely understand if she'd felt slighted. Fortunately I managed to apologise the next day for not finding her and I had a lovely dance with her that evening. I've previously had similar experiences in reverse which have made me think "Oh, she's a hotshot", but I now realise that in fact sometimes it was really just my own paranoia which was making me reach that conclusion rather than anything the other person had done. Of course there are also the genuine hotshots who look down their noses at you, but fortunately there aren't very many of those.

Lynn
28th-September-2004, 04:34 PM
Its about attitude more than actions. And actions can be misperceived as resulting from certain attitudes. I say give people the benefit of the doubt. If they really have a bad attitude (as a small minority might have), then would you really want to dance with them anyway?

ChrisA
28th-September-2004, 04:59 PM
Earlier somebody made the point that anybody who went huffy after constructive criticism deserves to be slapped.

Was it a joke? Because, if not, I have to say I find it very arrogant.

I do not share your 'humble' opinion and I certainly do not feel I derserve to be slapped because of it.

I love dancing for many reasons, one is that it's something I'm confident about, I feel I do it quite well. I really look forward to dancing the night away but I'd lose my enthusiasm for it if I was asked if I wanted feedback on my performance.

Heavens above, of course I didn't mean "literally deserves a slap". :hug:

But I'm sorry, if on the rare occasions I say to someone, "would you mind if I make a suggestion?" and then go on to point out in a very friendly way that the person in question is pulling my arm painfully when she turns, or is gripping my hand so tightly that her nails are practically drawing blood, or is lacerating me on every catch with her ridiculously sharp rings, then I'm afraid I find it very arrogant if someone goes all huffy after such feedback.

I am certainly not advocating giving frequent unsolicited feedback on "performance" as you put it, and if you'd read my post carefully you'd have noticed I referred to such comments being a rarity, and then almost exclusively with people I've danced with quite a bit and who therefore know me.

For your convenience, here's a link to my post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83107&postcount=41).

I promise you, all references to actual physical violence are metaphorical only :hug:

Chris

Gus
28th-September-2004, 05:00 PM
Does it have to be a 'Hotshot' action if you decline a dance? There are a number of lasses only the local circuit I'de prefer not to dance with ... not because they are beginners (quite the opposite) but for a myriad of real world issues; cant dance well to the track thats playing etc., constantly back lead, try to get in too close, have got HUGE egos, have bad-mouthed friends of mine. Why should I HAVE to dance with these people if they ask .... Simple question ... anyone got an answer??

ChrisA
28th-September-2004, 05:18 PM
Does it have to be a 'Hotshot' action if you decline a dance? There are a number of lasses only the local circuit I'de prefer not to dance with ... not because they are beginners (quite the opposite) but for a myriad of real world issues; cant dance well to the track thats playing etc., constantly back lead, try to get in too close, have got HUGE egos, have bad-mouthed friends of mine. Why should I HAVE to dance with these people if they ask .... Simple question ... anyone got an answer??

Simple question, simple answer...

You don't have to, and it's not hotshot activity !

MartinHarper
28th-September-2004, 07:24 PM
etiquette guide available at all venues would be a GOOD THING. Any volunteers to be an editor?

I was thinking that perhaps one could run a dance venue and dispense with the whole class thing and just rely on taxis and other dancers. I learn a lot of other dancers anyway, so it seemed logical. Key to success would be etiquette and culture and good people management. I was imagining that as people came in, they'd be given a little leaflet explaining what was expected of them, but different leaflets for folks of different abilities. Beginners would be told to have fun and learn to dance. Intermediates would be told to teach beginners and (less critically) teach each other. Advanced would be told to inspire folks of all abilities - by dancing with them, and by dancing with each other.

This'd also be very cheap: dispense with teaching costs. Also dispense with DJ costs by getting someone's gran in. Or is that another thread? :) Also, needs a snappy name.

Andy McGregor
28th-September-2004, 08:01 PM
I was thinking that perhaps one could run a dance venue and dispense with the whole class thing and just rely on taxis and other dancers. I learn a lot of other dancers anyway, so it seemed logical. Key to success would be etiquette and culture and good people management. I was imagining that as people came in, they'd be given a little leaflet explaining what was expected of them, but different leaflets for folks of different abilities. Beginners would be told to have fun and learn to dance. Intermediates would be told to teach beginners and (less critically) teach each other. Advanced would be told to inspire folks of all abilities - by dancing with them, and by dancing with each other.

This'd also be very cheap: dispense with teaching costs. Also dispense with DJ costs by getting someone's gran in. Or is that another thread? :) Also, needs a snappy name.

You could make it like pyramid selling. You get taught it, then you have to teach it to 5 friends, who each have to teach it to 5 more friends. By the end of the week we'd all be hotshots and looking for dancers on another continent. But are there enough grannies to be DJ? Maybe the supply of grannies would limit the growth of MJ. Although I have been to some classes where there is no shortage of them :whistle:

Gadget
28th-September-2004, 08:42 PM
I was thinking that perhaps one could run a dance venue and dispense with the whole class thing and just rely on taxis and other dancers. ...
Now how about just having a sunday tea-dance? Just a relaxed atmosphere where anyone can ask anyone for advice and feedback - people could practice a few moves together and chat and generally hang out?

I don't know if it was the workshops beforehand, but both tea dances at the weekend had this feel to them. :waycool:

Gadget
28th-September-2004, 08:49 PM
I have to disagree with this, Gadget. While I understand what you are saying, the unfortunate fact is that I or you or any other MJ dancer (or any person on the face of this planet, for that matter) cannot keep everyone happy all of the time.
True, true. But in the same way as you can be antagonistic, you can also be freindly and open; all I'm trying to advocate is more :hug: and less :mad:.

Lynn
29th-September-2004, 09:01 AM
I was thinking that perhaps one could run a dance venue and dispense with the whole class thing and just rely on taxis and other dancers. That's actually what we have started doing here in Belfast cos we don't have any teachers! Only going one week and we just played music (no grannies though!) and the dancers were showing each other some different moves as well as dancing. Will probably only work for a few weeks though and then we need to address the 'having a class' issue. But it did very naturally create a 'dance with everyone and help each other' attitude which is a nice way to get things started again. (No hotshots in Belfast, not on the MJ scene anyway... don't ask about salsa!)

jivecat
29th-September-2004, 09:47 AM
Phew, looks like everyone's calmed down again. :cheers:

ChrisA
29th-September-2004, 10:05 AM
Phew, looks like everyone's calmed down again. :cheers:
For the most part, I don't think there was much in the way of a lack of calm :)

Just a healthy debate. With opinions expressed and commented upon in the open, which IMHO is how it should be.

And while I'm on the subject, I'd like to say big up to Gadget... even though his spelling drives me crazy :eek: , and though we often disagree, he has the balls to disagree openly, and engage in the debate, without stooping to chuck negative rep around. So good on him for that.

:cheers:

Chris

jivecat
29th-September-2004, 10:37 AM
........ he has the balls to disagree openly, and engage in the debate, without stooping to chuck negative rep around. So good on him for that.

:cheers:

Chris

:yeah:

MartinHarper
29th-September-2004, 11:41 AM
There are a number of lasses only the local circuit I'de prefer not to dance with ... not because they are beginners (quite the opposite) but for a myriad of real world issues; cant dance well to the track thats playing etc., constantly back lead, [...].

This comment seems to say that being able to jive well to particular tracks, or backleading, is a "real world issue" in a way that apparently being an MJ beginner is not. Exactly what distinction is being drawn here?

Gus
29th-September-2004, 11:48 AM
This comment seems to say that being able to jive well to particular tracks, or backleading, is a "real world issue" in a way that apparently being an MJ beginner is not. Exactly what distinction is being drawn here?No distinction .. just saying who I like to dance with. whether someone is a beginner or not is not the issue .. its whether the dance feels right. Case in point, I enterd the Open Category at the Ceroc Scotland Chmaps with Chicklet .. .someone who I very rarely dance with and who is, by her own admission, not an advanced dancer. I've never competed at that level without my partner Helen (who is one of the best female dancers in the North). So ... you can safely assume there was a certain amount of trepidation before we danced. Needn't have worried. For all the lack of practice and difference in style we had a dream of a dance. The only things that went wrong was when I started going into competition combos that me and Helen do all the time but which arent clear to lead to somone who hasnt done the move before ... i.e. the fault was entirely mine. The point being .... well, its not down to the experince (or rep) of the dancer you're with ... its whether you enjoy the dance and Chicklet was an absolute star to dance with :flower:

Andy McGregor
29th-September-2004, 12:16 PM
without stooping to chuck negative rep around. So good on him for that.

:cheers:

Chris

Hey, I only got one bit of negative rep - which was nice. I thought I might get more for disagreeing so strongly.

I'm still not playing the game of being nice so my rep goes up. At one point yesterday 2 out of the 5 visible comments were negative. I regard this as proof that I'm slowly catching Gus up in Devil's Advocacy :devil:

.. IMHO, if you're not on the edge you're taking up too much room.

Gus
29th-September-2004, 12:19 PM
I'm still not playing the game of being nice so my rep goes up. At one point yesterday 2 out of the 5 visible comments were negative. I regard this as proof that I'm slowly catching Gus up in Devil's Advocacy :devil: Funnily enough the olny major neg rep I got (recetnly) was for bringing up an old topic that most people seemed to want to discuss again ... but the Forums Resident Negative Repper decided that wasn't on :confused: Seems like he's been spreading it around with others so at least I dont feel victimised :wink:

Gadget
29th-September-2004, 12:48 PM
... IMHO, if you're not on the edge you're taking up too much room.
Who else feels an overwhelming urge to push? :blush:

{Sorry Andy - too good a setup line to pass by :wink:}

Andy McGregor
29th-September-2004, 12:53 PM
Who else feels an overwhelming urge to push? :blush:

{Sorry Andy - too good a setup line to pass by }


.. fish flaps :wink:

tiger
1st-October-2004, 06:53 PM
Where will there be more hotshots tonight?

Ashtons or Hipsters???

RogerR
3rd-October-2004, 09:40 AM
Well I knew Ceroc in the days before Busby's When James and Sylvia taught classes, and I abandoned Central club when regularly refused a dance cos I was "too old" so now I only ask people "mellowed by age"

bigdjiver
3rd-October-2004, 02:39 PM
Well I knew Ceroc in the days before Busby's When James and Sylvia taught classes, and I abandoned Central club when regularly refused a dance cos I was "too old" so now I only ask people "mellowed by age"More experienced at being young?

Whitebeard
3rd-October-2004, 11:33 PM
..... when regularly refused a dance cos I was "too old" so now I only ask people "mellowed by age"

You don't know what you're missing !!

I can well understand what the above experience did for your self-confidence. But venues which attract dancers showing this apalling behaviour should be avoided like the plauge.

Even as a very well mellowed fellow, my own experience at normal Ceroc class nights has been completely different and I've been very impressed and encouraged that any signs of an 'ageist! attitude have been virtually nil. The rotation of the class ensures that the partner of the moment may be of any age, size, shape, colour, ethnicity, etc., and almost invariably, if we judge each other at all, it is on general attitude, friendliness, and responsiveness in the dance practice.

After a few weeks/months of regular attendance even a rather backward fellow such as myself has a circle of new dance friends who will accept (or initiate) an invitation; and there is a special relationship with a few who started about the same time. Names are remembered and, so far as dance is concerned, relative ages do not seem to matter.

You're missing a lot if you let those earlier experiences limit your choice of partners. You have dancing experience and, as such, have a lot to offer others not so far along the path as yourself; whatever their age. Go for it. For just three minutes or so, connecting through dance with someone younger, can knock an instant 20, 30, 40, even perhaps 50 years, off your real age.

Andy McGregor
4th-October-2004, 11:08 AM
You don't know what you're missing !!

:yeah:

jivecat
4th-October-2004, 02:51 PM
Whitebeard

For just three minutes or so, connecting through dance with someone younger, can knock an instant 20, 30, 40, even perhaps 50 years, off your real age.

Great post, Whitebeard. An instant 20 years off would do me just fine now that I am developing a really rich, antique patina!

CJ
4th-October-2004, 03:27 PM
Hey, I only got one bit of negative rep - which was nice. I thought I might get more for disagreeing so strongly.



You just didn't try hard enough!! I got LOADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rofl:

Almost quarter the amount of the positive I got!!! :eek: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:cheers:

Sheepman
4th-October-2004, 03:34 PM
I still maintain that anyone that feels bad about hotshots and whom they dance with or don't dance with should concentrate on improving their dancing in any way they can. Don't be afraid of working your way up in the dance world, just as in any other walk of life, and don't expect something for nothing. OK I'm going back a bit in dragging this up again, but I've been away and I'm just starting to catch up.
In essence I agree, life is too short, if there are hotshots around, then that should be their problem, not yours. I'll dance with any hotshot that asks me :rofl: but I'm not likely to waste effort on asking them repeatedly after I've had a dismissive refusal, and I'm not going to spend nights worrying about it.
The trouble is, it is largely a matter of your own perception, at my regular venue (Hipsters) I can only think of one or two occasional visitors that I would think of as hotshots. A newbie there might consider that 50% of the room is full of hotshots. For me it makes no difference to the evening, I'm not even likely to notice the hotshots are there until the lights go up, but for the newbie it could lead to a sour evening. Surely it is the way with any type of "club" the more you get into it, the more comfortable you are with it and the people there.

A friend has recently complained that she never gets asked to dance any more, she always has to do the asking. In the same way as perceiving a venue being full of "hotshot" behaviour, I'm sure this dents her enjoyment of an evening. (I can't explain why this should be in her case, as well as being totally gorgeous, she is a good dancer - a recent competition finalist.)

I'm sure most of us at any dance night want everyone there to have a good time, but it's just not possible to take personal resposibility for it (unless you are the DJ :devil: ) I want every new person that turns up to have a great night, but for a start it would be impossible to know who they all are, let alone be able to do much about it.

Greg

ChrisA
4th-October-2004, 05:29 PM
but for the newbie it could lead to a sour evening. Surely it is the way with any type of "club" the more you get into it, the more comfortable you are with it and the people there.

Ah, the voice of reason !!!! :cheers:

When I first started going to Hipsters, I found it all pretty intimidating... I could barely get through Nigel's classes, ended up feeling about an inch tall by the end, and frequently got funny looks from all the women I danced completely unmusically with. And got turned down from time to time too...

... but feeling bad because I realised how far my dancing had to improve just made me more determined.

I don't think we should be insulated and protected from the bad feelings that go hand in hand with discovering that we're not as good as we'd like. Encouraged to push on through them, absolutely, but no bull****, please !!

Chris, still hoping for an improvement... :blush:

MartinHarper
5th-October-2004, 12:13 AM
with any type of "club" the more you get into it, the more comfortable you are with it and the people there.

This is certainly true: pubs are a good example - most folks are more comfortable in their regular pub. Still, there's a big difference between those pubs that are immediately welcoming of newcomers, and those "local" pubs where the entrance of an unfamiliar face causes a deathly silence to descend. So too with MJ venues.


I want every new person that turns up to have a great night, but for a start it would be impossible to know who they all are, let alone be able to do much about it.

Perhaps unfairly, I'm reminded of the Simpsons episode where Homer creates the highly addictive "Tomacco" plant


Lisa: You're about to launch a terrible evil on the world. You've got to destroy this plant!
Homer: I know, honey. But what can i do as an individidual? I wouldn't know where to begin.
Lisa: Just burn that plant right now and end this madness.
Homer: I wish i could make a difference, Lisa, but I'm just one man.
Lisa: Grrrr!
Homer: I agree, but how?

I can tell new folks by my inability to recognise their face, by their lacklustre dancing abilities, and by their general nervousness. I can do something about it by talking to new folks, introducing them to people I know, and asking them to dance. Seems simple to me. What am I missing?

Gadget
5th-October-2004, 12:32 AM
...I want every new person that turns up to have a great night, but for a start it would be impossible to know who they all are, let alone be able to do much about it.
Why? I know all the new faces that turn up to my venue, and I try to dance with every lady amoung them. I try to dance with those that have only been coming once or twice. The fact that I try to dance with everyone and try to make sure that they at least enjoy one dance must count for something?

{Note - I like to see new faces; I want to show them how much fun it can be and how much fun I am having in the vain hope that they will get hooked and I will have a larger hareem of dancers to dance with :innocent: I dance with them as a test of my skills. I dance with them as a test of their skills. I dance with them because the music is playing and they are not dancing. I dance with them because it may be the last time I ever get to dance with them. I dance with them because they have no preconceptions. But mostly I dance with begginers because I like to :D}

Andy McGregor
5th-October-2004, 10:46 AM
What am I missing?

A massive ego :innocent:

ChrisA
5th-October-2004, 11:04 AM
This is certainly true: pubs are a good example - most folks are more comfortable in their regular pub. Still, there's a big difference between those pubs that are immediately welcoming of newcomers, and those "local" pubs where the entrance of an unfamiliar face causes a deathly silence to descend. So too with MJ venues.

This exaggeration makes an artistic point, certainly :whistle:, but I really think all this is starting to go too far.

I think we have to recognise that as someone said recently, MJ is different things to different people. Different venues have different atmospheres, and people have free choice to go where they want.

If what you want is a nice friendly social gathering, there are venues where that's where the emphasis lies. If you want to dance with lots of hardcore dancers, all obsessed with getting better, doing competitions, and dancing with people of like mind, then you can, as well as everything in between.

In fact most places are "in between" to one extent or another.

So go where the emphasis is what you want, or pick the subset of people at an in-between venue to dance with, whose emphasis is similar to yours. If you want to move from one emphasis to another as your dancing develops and your tastes and preferences change (and they might not, of course, which is fine), do so. If you don't, don't. It's as simple as that.

But don't tell people that they should want what you want.

Chris

Gus
5th-October-2004, 11:29 AM
If what you want is a nice friendly social gathering, there are venues where that's where the emphasis lies. If you want to dance with lots of hardcore dancers, all obsessed with getting better, doing competitions, and dancing with people of like mind, then you can, as well as everything in between.
In fact most places are "in between" to one extent or another.A well made point. Isn’t it a case of places finding their natural level ... i.e. people will gravitate towards a place that meets their needs. I used to go to Marcus Garvey years back ... not because I found it particularly sociable but because the standard of teaching and dancing was way above anywhere else. For the social bit I went to Stafford ... dancing wasn’t so hot and the music was a bit hit and miss but the mob there were great fun ... think I spent far more time chatting than dancing. So .... few clubs can cover all basis for all dancers.

Whether all this has to do with 'Hotshots' itself is unclear. I always saw Hotshots as being a new phrase for 'Ceroc Snobs' ... a well recognised phenomena who used to reside at the Central Club in London ... if your face/dancing didn’t fit they imply ignored you. Regardless of the standard of the club these people will exist .... so what ... just ignore them. If someone wants to spend time developing their dancing ... that’s their prerogative. In fact .. unless someone actually causes you damage ... whats the problem? There are other dancers and, if push comes to shove, other clubs.

ChrisA
5th-October-2004, 11:42 AM
Whether all this has to do with 'Hotshots' itself is unclear. I always saw Hotshots as being a new phrase for 'Ceroc Snobs' ... a well recognised phenomena who used to reside at the Central Club in London ... if your face/dancing didn’t fit they imply ignored you. Regardless of the standard of the club these people will exist .... so what ... just ignore them.
...... :yeah:

I used to dance at the Central Club - I taxied there when Viktor and Lydia were teaching there. In fact I was present for Lydia's first ever Ceroc class (ie with Viktor demoing for her)!!

There, now that I'm back from memory lane, having bathed momentarily in some very old and now completely irrelevant reflected glory, I can recall that I was shunned by a bunch of people there too.

I had no idea why, since all this hotshots stuff went miles over my head in those days - I just assumed that because they were so good they wouldn't want to dance with me. I still got loads of good dances (well, they were good for me then) with lots of people who were around my level, and occasionally I plucked up the courage to ask one of the shunners. Sometimes they danced with me, sometimes they didn't. And because I really wanted to be that good, and wanted to dance with them, it would sting if I was turned down because it would remind me that I was still crap!

The point is, it only makes a difference to anything if you want to dance with these people. If you do, then as I've said, there's at least a partial responsibility on you to be the sort of dancer that they want to dance with.

If you don't, it's of no consequence.

Chris

ElaineB
5th-October-2004, 12:29 PM
OK I'm going back a bit in dragging this up again, but I've been away and I'm just starting to catch up.
In essence I agree, life is too short, if there are hotshots around, then that should be their problem, not yours. I'll dance with any hotshot that asks me :rofl: but I'm not likely to waste effort on asking them repeatedly after I've had a dismissive refusal, and I'm not going to spend nights worrying about it.

Greg

Greg,

I am not certain of your status in the dance world - ie hotshot or not! :rofl: But I do remember being a 'Newbie' at Hipsters and you very kindly asked me to dance. There were a number of other 'regulars' there, including Chris A and Peter, who again asked me to dance and I was dead chuffed! I certainly have no difficulty in asking for dances and in no way would I consider myself to be backward in coming forward. It is however daunting when you go to a new venue and I am glad to say that I have only ever been refused by one person at Hipsters (his loss!! :rofl: ) and one person gave me the impression that they were really doing me a favour (and I thought it was the other way round! :rofl: ).

Some time ago, Andy McG came to Bristol with Graham LeClerc and was an absolute star - being from 'London', us Bristolians were quite rightly in awe :whistle: , but Andy was superb and danced the socks off us all!

There are a number of you who show generosity with regard to whom you dance and I think you know who you are :clap: :clap: :clap:

Those who don't, will not change their attitude I'm afraid. I have noted the two 'Gentlemen' at Hipsters who 'slighted' me and have seen their general attitude to others continuing (seen at other venues as I do not manage to get to Hipsters at the moment). I recognise that it is they who have the problem, not me!

I do not mean to single Hipsters out here by the way - we have our very own 'Hotshot' here in Bristol! :rofl:

Elaine

ChrisA
5th-October-2004, 12:46 PM
Some time ago, Andy McG ... - being from 'London'

Absolutely. London is everywhere east of Newbury and south of Milton Keynes. :rofl:

Chris

SPROGGS
5th-October-2004, 12:55 PM
Regarding hotshots, though, I think the best way of dealing with the whole issue is just to focus on getting better at dancing and not worrying about who will and who won't dance with you, and why.

That way you get more enjoyment out of it, and more to the point, you give more pleasure by dancing. You'll get more in demand as a dancer, and you'll probably find that the people you thought were hotshots aren't.I agree with your sentiment just concentrate on being a better dancer. But never join their ranks.

SPROGGS
5th-October-2004, 01:18 PM
There are lots of dancers who consider themselves HOTSHOTS.
I think the best policy is to dance your own dance for your own fun & enjoyment.

Never forget that your were once a beginner so when you dance with beginners and treat them as you would like to be treated. [/FONT]

Sheepman
5th-October-2004, 02:03 PM
Perhaps unfairly, I'm reminded of the Simpsons episode where Homer creates the highly addictive "Tomacco" plant

I can tell new folks by my inability to recognise their face, by their lacklustre dancing abilities, and by their general nervousness. I can do something about it by talking to new folks, introducing them to people I know, and asking them to dance. Seems simple to me. What am I missing? I had a feeling when I wrote it, that what I said would be open to misinterpretation.
What I meant was that on an individual basis, I cannot hope to get round to meet and greet and dance with all the faces I don't recognise, we are talking about up to 50 ladies here. The place is so busy that there are always friends I find that I have missed when the lights go up at the end of the evening. On an individual basis I hope I am friendly and welcoming to all the people I meet, old or new, and I would hope that everyone else behaves in the same way, but there is no way I can enforce that is there?

And there are those times when other factors take over, e.g. with 2 competitions approaching within 4 weeks, and not having danced with my partner for nearly a fortnight, (I was a bit busy on other things in Scotland :wink: ), it was essential that we practised, so last night I only danced with 3 people, and all but 2 of those dances were with my dance partner. No doubt people around us were disgusted at "those hotshots," but at least we gave them some smiles as they watched things go disastrously wrong from time to time!

Greg

bigdjiver
5th-October-2004, 02:57 PM
On the other side of the coin are those we should emulate. We had a dance "god" drop in at our local freestyle. Afterwards the ladies that had a dance with him were drooling about it, some bragging about how they had beaten the rush. It was obviously an experience that they would relish for a long time.

I saw him drying his shirt under the hand drier in the gents, as was I, having exhausted my supply. Curious, I asked him which shirt he was on. He replied that he had only brought the one he was wearing, "I didn't come here to dance".

drathzel
5th-October-2004, 03:24 PM
On the other side of the coin are those we should emulate. We had a dance "god" drop in at our local freestyle. Afterwards the ladies that had a dance with him were drooling about it, some bragging about how they had beaten the rush. It was obviously an experience that they would relish for a long time.

I saw him drying his shirt under the hand drier in the gents, as was I, having exhausted my supply. Curious, I asked him which shirt he was on. He replied that he had only brought the one he was wearing, "I didn't come here to dance".
where was this... and why did he come? :what:

Andy McGregor
5th-October-2004, 03:56 PM
Some time ago, Andy McG came to Bristol with Graham LeClerc and was an absolute star - being from 'London', us Bristolians were quite rightly in awe :whistle: , but Andy was superb and danced the socks off us all!

I remember that night. All the women were fab - and I went home with a big bag of socks :devil:

.. I thought they'd said 'sex' :wink:

Gadget
5th-October-2004, 04:15 PM
If what you want is a nice friendly social gathering, there are venues where that's where the emphasis lies. If you want to dance with lots of hardcore dancers, all obsessed with getting better, doing competitions, and dancing with people of like mind, then you can, as well as everything in between.
The way I'm reading this is that you're saying it's not only OK to have an open prejudice against "lesser dancers", but justifiable and acceptable. I'm sorry, but any "club" that breeds that in it's clientell I don't want to be a member of.

Rudeness and an eliteist attitude do not have any place in the MJ world {well, not in mine anyway}. I'm not saying that you have to dance with begginers. I'm not even saing that you have to dance with anyone outside your own circle. What I am saying is that any rejections should be polite and open. It's like laughing at someone who has just learned the alphabet, but hasn't yet learned to read.

I don't really care about the justifications for the action - it does not excuse the method of execution; and it is this that makes a "hotshot".

Gus
5th-October-2004, 04:47 PM
Rudeness and an eliteist attitude do not have any place in the MJ world {well, not in mine anyway}. I don't really care about the justifications for the action - it does not excuse the method of execution; and it is this that makes a "hotshot".{ODA Mode On}
OK .. lets cut through all this posturing ... .WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Put posters up saying "Hotshot Free Zone" .... interrogate all dancers "Are you or have you ever been a Hotshot?" ..... ban them? Talk is cheap .... what would you actualy DO about the situation?
{ODA Mode Off}

Gojive
5th-October-2004, 06:11 PM
at least we gave them some smiles as they watched things go disastrously wrong from time to time

:rofl: I'm sure I have no idea what you're referring to there Greg. By the way, how are your bruises today? :whistle:

tiger
5th-October-2004, 08:26 PM
I think Chris a has been given a hard time, on some occasions on this thread. I don't know him personally but he seems to have given straight and refreshingly honest personal opinions.

I think there are a few do-gooders around who 'dance with anyone' but they also attend competitions (which are elistist by their nature), 'Big do's' where all different types attend including hotshots and pre judge people sitting out a class (+ yes those pointing, laughing+making noise are out of order) who may have all sorts of reasons for not taking part. Seems hypocritcal to me.

Lynn
5th-October-2004, 11:12 PM
We don't have MJ hotshots in NI - no-one is anywhere near good enough! But talking to a friend recently who said that when dancing (not in NI) some guys who found out she was a beginner clearly did not want to dance with her (she said it was only a very small minority). They may have had their reasons, she may have misunderstood... but sometimes there is a feeling of superiority and that is what comes across. And no matter if it is dancing or any area of life, no-one likes to be patronised or sneered at. That's the aspect of a 'hotshot' that is the problem - not whether people do the class, where they dance or even who they dance with.


...but they also attend competitions (which are elistist by their nature) I'm going to one of those - so I must be in the elite! :rofl:

Jon L
5th-October-2004, 11:30 PM
But talking to a friend recently who said that when dancing (not in NI) some guys who found out she was a beginner clearly did not want to dance with her (she said it was only a very small minority). They may have had their reasons, she may have misunderstood... but sometimes there is a feeling of superiority and that is what comes across
.
I'm going to one of those - so I must be in the elite! :rofl:

Sorry your friend had an experience like that. I know what its like and it's not nice. Even after four years I still get the odd decline here and there, I had one at a venue in Southern England last week (not at the Rebel Yell). Twelve months ago, I'd have got upset and doubted myself. Now having had some compliments from some good teachers who I respect and lots of dancers on the circuitwho are saying that things have improved,. if it happens now - my thought is "it's their problem"

stewart38
6th-October-2004, 12:06 AM
Ive danced with women who have looked 'bored' and my preception is Im not good enough. The sort who spend 90% of the time dancing with one partner anyway.

ChrisA
6th-October-2004, 12:42 AM
The way I'm reading this is that you're saying it's not only OK to have an open prejudice against "lesser dancers", but justifiable and acceptable. I'm sorry, but any "club" that breeds that in it's clientell I don't want to be a member of.

Huh???? :confused: :confused: :confused:

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I really don't understand where you get this from at all.



Rudeness and an eliteist attitude do not have any place in the MJ world {well, not in mine anyway}. I'm not saying that you have to dance with begginers. I'm not even saing that you have to dance with anyone outside your own circle. What I am saying is that any rejections should be polite and open. It's like laughing at someone who has just learned the alphabet, but hasn't yet learned to read.

I think a miracle may have happened... I agree with Gadget for once :rofl:

I totally agree with this. I would never condone any behaviour that includes treating another human being with a sneer, and I challenge anyone to find anything I've written that remotely justifies such behaviour.

I'm saying that people shouldn't feel they have to dance with anyone they don't want to. Because a dance danced out of duty will tend to be a little soulless, and I can't believe there's anyone out there who's been dancing for a while that doesn't understand that. If they can find it in themselves to do it not out of duty, but find in the dance something that they like, that they might not even have expected, then that's a good thing. But if they can't, then better not to dance.

I'm saying that if people want to go dancing to dance with their friends then that's Ok.

If people want to sit out the lesson, then that's Ok too.

It's nice to be nice, so it's nice to dance with beginners nicely - they seem to appreciate it, and it helps them move on a bit. So I'd encourage people to do it.

It's horrible to be yanked about, to have people cause you pain on the dance floor. So I'd encourage people to avoid people that do that, or better still tell them they're painful to dance with. But politely and openly as Gadget says. Not, as we so often find, behind their backs :mad:

I'm also saying that the attitudes imagined by people who feel rejected are often not what they think, and that if people want to dance with dancers that are miles better than they are (and if they want those dancers to also want to dance with them) then they need to be prepared to work at getting better.

I really don't think I'm saying anything that profound. It beats me why people get so antsy about it.

But no sneering. Sneering is not nice, in the MJ world or anywhere else.

Chris

ChrisA
6th-October-2004, 12:58 AM
Ive danced with women who have looked 'bored' and my preception is Im not good enough. The sort who spend 90% of the time dancing with one partner anyway.

Some questions, if I may. I should say that I have no idea who you are, or what your dancing's like. So I have no axe to grind, and no opinion about your dancing.

1. Do you know if they actually were bored, or was that just your surmise? Maybe they were concentrating.

2. If they were actually bored, would you have preferred it if they had pretended to be really interested?

3. If they actually were bored, are you in a position to discern whether the reason they were bored was (a) because they are the sort of person who is bored by almost anything, or (b) because dancing with you was boring? (or (c) I spose, because they were bored with their own dancing... I often am with mine... :tears: )


My experience has been as follows:

If someone looks bored when dancing with me, I assume they are bored, and that it's because my dancing is boring. Then I work on making my dancing less boring, and see if they still seem bored when I dance with them again. Over time, fewer and fewer people seem bored when dancing with me. It pleases me to imagine that that's because I'm a better dancer than I was two years ago, but I accept it might be just my imagination.

Sometimes I ask them if they really were bored. On every occasion they have denied it. Maybe they were lying, but they seemed really horrified that I would have thought that they were bored, so unless they were being really devious, I think the simplest answer is that they weren't as bored as I thought they were.

Maybe I'm just too straightforward in all this. Am I missing something?

Chris

Andy McGregor
6th-October-2004, 02:31 AM
I think there are a few do-gooders around who 'dance with anyone' but they also attend competitions (which are elistist by their nature), 'Big do's' where all different types attend including hotshots and pre judge people sitting out a class (+ yes those pointing, laughing+making noise are out of order) who may have all sorts of reasons for not taking part. Seems hypocritcal to me.

I think Tiger means me.

Does Tiger think it's OK to do all those things? To sit out the lesson and spend time laughing and pointing at the people taking part?

Competitions aren't 'elitist' they are competitions. They don't select a group who are too good to dance with lesser dancers. They just select the best dancers, in the opinion of the judges, on that particular day. And I think Tiger has never seen me in competition, otherwise he/she would not have called me 'elitist'.

This Forum is for debate, not name calling. Me Hypocritical - I don't think so. I dance for fun, I compete for fun - where's the hypocricy? :confused:

Let's not beat about the bush. There are Ceroc Snobs/Hotshots: they don't dance with people they don't want to dance with. If you ask one of them to dance and they turn you down, don't ask them again. Don't let it bother you - but don't bother them again either. Ask me, I'll dance with you, man or woman, animal or vegetable :flower:

CJ
6th-October-2004, 09:45 AM
Ask me, I'll dance with you ..... vegetable :flower:

Nice to see that after everything you WOULD still dance with Mick :wink:

Bangers & Mash
6th-October-2004, 10:31 AM
I've been a bit lapse reading the forum recently so completely missed this thread, but I do have my tuppence for this one...

When I first started MJ in Edinburgh I was made to feel very small by somebody on the next table who was complaining loudly and bitterly about beginners, beginners classes and having to 'put up' with beginners.

To me the response is that a person cannot be superior if you are not willing to be inferior and so for every superiority complex there must be a corresponding inferiority complex.

My attitute in this case was to keep quiet, make a mental note and strive to become a better dancer than the person in question.



I'm saying that people shouldn't feel they have to dance with anyone they don't want to. Because a dance danced out of duty will tend to be a little soulless, and I can't believe there's anyone out there who's been dancing for a while that doesn't understand that. If they can find it in themselves to do it not out of duty, but find in the dance something that they like, that they might not even have expected, then that's a good thing. But if they can't, then better not to dance.


:yeah:

I have a good friend that I made at ceroc with whom I just cannot dance. She's a bopper and so any dances with her are purely out of duty and not only do I not enjoy it, but it knocks me off my next couple of dances as well.

But if she asks me, she is never refused.

Ironically, whilst I could blame her dance style as being incompatible with mine, I do find that as my lead gets stronger with experience, so I can control her better and have noted the techniques used by other more experienced dancers to stop her bopping.



I'm saying that if people want to go dancing to dance with their friends then that's Ok.


:yeah:

but either explain gently when declining a dance or don't refuse dances from others. I was practising with my dance partner once and simply explained to approaching dancers what was happening and promised them I would make it up another night.



If people want to sit out the lesson, then that's Ok too.


:confused:

Not certain I agree with you here Chris. Especially if the other sex is moving round and you're sitting out. If your sex is moving round then I'd be inclined to go back down to the bar unless I was particularly interested in learning the move being taught.




It's nice to be nice, so it's nice to dance with beginners nicely - they seem to appreciate it, and it helps them move on a bit. So I'd encourage people to do it.


:yeah:

I agree wholeheartedly. Often tho' we are so outnumbered by women here in Edinburgh that the guy doesn't get a chance to choose who he wants to dance with because he gets grabbed immediately the next dance starts.

To this end, I would suggest that beginners need to build up the courage to ask for dances as well. I had to and that is how I got on.



It's horrible to be yanked about, to have people cause you pain on the dance floor. So I'd encourage people to avoid people that do that, or better still tell them they're painful to dance with. But politely and openly as Gadget says. Not, as we so often find, behind their backs :mad:


A friend of mine is the only girl I know who has complained to 'Mr Yanky Arms' to be more gentle and it had the desired effect (for that dance at least).

If people complain directly I think they would be surprised by how amenable these people can be, and if they get the hump then just don't dance with them.



I'm also saying that the attitudes imagined by people who feel rejected are often not what they think, and that if people want to dance with dancers that are miles better than they are (and if they want those dancers to also want to dance with them) then they need to be prepared to work at getting better.


I had to listen to one of our local dancers give his own character assassination of one of the forum's own living legends.

Described as "arrogant", "full of himself", "can't dance" and "can't lead" I couldn't help but think that the person doing the name calling had just demonstrated that he was all of those and more.

This is where the inferiority complex comes in. I had made the effort to talk to the person who was being slated and found them to be very amenable, helpful and encouraging and certainly I had not been witness to any of the negative characteristics mentioned.

So, as a final footnote, it is worth considering that:

Shyness can ofter be mistaken for Stand-Offishness
Don't mistake exhuberance on the dance floor for Arrogance (it's an individual style)

Lory
6th-October-2004, 10:59 AM
If your sex is moving round then I'd be inclined to go back down to the bar
If your sex is moving round, I'd be inclined to wear tighter pants! :whistle:

Sorry I couldn't help that one! :whistle: :rofl:

Gus
6th-October-2004, 11:24 AM
I had to listen to one of our local dancers give his own character assassination of one of the forum's own living legends.

Described as "arrogant", "full of himself", "can't dance" and "can't lead" I couldn't help but think that the person doing the name calling had just demonstrated that he was all of those and more.I'm sorry but I just don’t follow this. There ARE some well known dancers on the scene who are known to be; violent to women, serial seducers (and not the dance floor type), child chasers, arrogant f**kwits and more .. FACT .... The fact that someone said this in an outburst is possibly more a measure of their desperation and frustration at the third party than themselves.
I've made similar comments about a few local dancers ... BECAUSE IT IS TRUE. Does that put me in the same category??? (Awaits the hordes of positive replies :rolleyes: )

Bangers & Mash
6th-October-2004, 11:38 AM
I'm sorry but I just don’t follow this. There ARE some well known dancers on the scene who are known to be; violent to women, serial seducers (and not the dance floor type), child chasers, arrogant f**kwits and more .. FACT .... The fact that someone said this in an outburst is possibly more a measure of their desperation and frustration at the third party than themselves.
I've made similar comments about a few local dancers ... BECAUSE IT IS TRUE. Does that put me in the same category??? (Awaits the hordes of positive replies :rolleyes: )

Whilst I'm certain that those people are out their - this guy's outburst was based on prejudice. He didn't even know the guy.

Obviously, if you've made similar comments then those will be based on facts and proveable facts and not just hearsay.

I always work on the assumption that anything I say may be used against me and If I am not willing to stand up and be counted for what I say - then I don't say it.

If I slag someone off then that means I would be willing to be held accountable for what I have said - and if I were to be accused of slander for what I said then I would be ready, willing and able to defend that position.

I know for a fact that this person couldn't defend his rantings.

Lynn
6th-October-2004, 11:56 AM
Sorry your friend had an experience like that. I know what its like and it's not nice. Well I can remember after about 1 lesson in Crete really feeling really inadequate and being really pleased when one of the better dancers asked me up for a dance... wonder who that was?
Thanks Jon! :hug:

Gadget
6th-October-2004, 12:11 PM
{ODA Mode On}
OK .. lets cut through all this posturing ... .WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Put posters up saying "Hotshot Free Zone" .... interrogate all dancers "Are you or have you ever been a Hotshot?" ..... ban them? Talk is cheap .... what would you actualy DO about the situation?
{ODA Mode Off}
Don't know. I've been thinking about this since it was posted: How do you deal with rudeness off the dance floor? If someone shoves you on the subway. If someone cut's the queue in a nightclub. If you are sneered upon by a teller or checkout girl...

I think it's a social and upbringing thing - if you live in a society that takes these actions as the norm, ignores or accepts them; then they become a part of the world we live in. I don't know how to combat it except by acknowledging it's presence and leading by example. :tears:

Gus
6th-October-2004, 12:20 PM
Don't know. I've been thinking about this since it was posted: How do you deal with rudeness off the dance floor? If someone shoves you on the subway. If someone cut's the queue in a nightclub. If you are sneered upon by a teller or checkout girl...

I think it's a social and upbringing thing - if you live in a society that takes these actions as the norm, ignores or accepts them; then they become a part of the world we live in. I don't know how to combat it except by acknowledging it's presence and leading by example. :tears:Good point. How many times are you in a restaurant having a mediocre meal and the waitress asks "how was the meal" and you say wonderful?? Must admit I've stopped doing that know. Having worked in process improvement in the service industry you become intolerant of bad service. Now, if the service isn’t up to scratch i tell them .. might not make me too popular all the time ... but its got me loads of free coffees and bill discounts :wink:

As for trouble in a nightclub/street ... I think that depends more on how likely you are to get your head kicked in. Where I've felt safe I've asked for an apology ... not always worked but again if you don’t stop people behaving badly it just re-inforces negative behaviour. Ask any of the teachers on this forum just how you should deal with bad behaviour from children.

Daisy Chain
6th-October-2004, 12:36 PM
1If someone looks bored when dancing with me, I assume they are bored, and that it's because my dancing is boring.

If it's any consolation, I can look really bored when dancing to music that I don't like eg anything by Craig Interesting Davis. I'm not bored with my partner or his moves but the music isn't pushing my buttons and I feel like I'm moving through treacle. Hence I look bored and am probably thinking "Ooo, I really hope that the next track is Dance the Night Away"

Daisy

(A Bored Little WallFlower

Lory
6th-October-2004, 01:12 PM
I think it would be far to say, if I look bored when I'm dancing, it probably means that I AM :( I have one of those unfortunate faces that shows exactly how I'm feeling, happy, sad, worried, tired or exited, etc. even if I try my hardest to cover it up, i'll only manage it for a few moments :tears:

Fortunately, the need for this is very rare :clap: :grin:

CJ
6th-October-2004, 01:40 PM
I think it would be far to say, if I look bored when I'm dancing, it probably means that I AM :(

:blush:

Andy McGregor
6th-October-2004, 02:55 PM
I have one of those unfortunate faces that shows exactly how I'm feeling, happy, sad, worried, tired or exited, etc. even if I try my hardest to cover it up, i'll only manage it for a few moments :tears:

Lorraine has a lovely face. But you're unlikely to see much of it when you dance with her. She's also got lovely long blonde hair which covers her face most of the time - you get the odd glimpse of a beaming smile as her hair unwraps from her face, just before it wraps in the opposite direction. Now I think about it, it's a bit like dancing with a flashing lighthouse :whistle:

Bangers & Mash
6th-October-2004, 02:59 PM
If it's any consolation, I can look really bored when dancing to music that I don't like eg anything by Craig Interesting Davis. I'm not bored with my partner or his moves but the music isn't pushing my buttons and I feel like I'm moving through treacle. Hence I look bored and am probably thinking "Ooo, I really hope that the next track is Dance the Night Away"


That's useful to know.

I have a hard time sometimes telling apart

1 - The person who just doesn't want to dance with me and so makes no effort whatsoever
2 - The person who is new and so dances awkwardly
3 - The person who is 'bored with the music' (new consideration here)

I do remember distinctly being stuck with a hot shot in a beginners class who just wouldn't make any effort and danced like she had a broom up her arse.

I resolved the issue by saying "I'm not very good at this either - but I find it helps if you relax."

from that point on she had to prove that she could dance :D

Lynn
6th-October-2004, 03:01 PM
...a hot shot in a beginners class... :confused:

Bangers & Mash
6th-October-2004, 03:07 PM
:confused:

okay - let's rephrase that - she thought she was a hot shot!

Lory
6th-October-2004, 03:51 PM
Now I think about it, it's a bit like dancing with a flashing lighthouse :whistle:
:rofl:

Chickadee
6th-October-2004, 09:59 PM
1. Do you know if they actually were bored, or was that just your surmise? Maybe they were concentrating.

:yeah:

I've been asked a few times if I'm ok when I'm dancing because apparently I can look like I'm really sad/annoyed... I promise you all that this is not the reason, it's because I'm usually concentrating so hard on not falling over! :o All those spins can make a girl rather dizzy! :sick:

tiger
10th-October-2004, 11:40 PM
Hi Andy McG

You're reply suggests you misread or didnt read at all, the comment i made in my previous post. It said 'those making noise /laughing etc WERE OUT OF ORDER).

People pay their money and do what they like ,(i e sitting out the class + chatting) they dont need to justify this.

Enjoy you're competitions, you will no doubt entertain if in you're usual form.

Gadget
11th-October-2004, 12:27 AM
You're reply suggests you misread or didnt read at all, the comment i made in my previous post. It said 'those making noise /laughing etc WERE OUT OF ORDER).

People pay their money and do what they like ,(i e sitting out the class + chatting) they dont need to justify this.
Not quite: if you paid to go to night classes, how would you feel if someone in the class distracted you from the teacher or laughed when you did something? They paid the same as you; they are entitled to sit in that class and disrupt it as much as they want - aren't they?

Most people turn up to participate in the class - the least you can do is be courteous and not distract them from what they are trying to do.
{DA}If you really wanted to sit out the class, chat and joke then why not meet up with the people you want to chat to outside of the class and only come in once the class is finished?{/DA}

Andy McGregor
11th-October-2004, 09:11 AM
Hi Andy McG

You're reply suggests you misread or didnt read at all, the comment i made in my previous post. It said 'those making noise /laughing etc WERE OUT OF ORDER).

Sorry, you were right, my misunderstanding :blush:

But the rest of Tiger's post seemed to be a personal attack on me: calling competitors 'elitist' - at least I took it personally :sad:

Tiger's very keen to point out my mistake but hasn't agreed or disagreed with my defence against the accusation that competitions are 'elitist'. As it's now a few pages ago, here is a reminder of that post;


Competitions aren't 'elitist' they are competitions. They don't select a group who are too good to dance with lesser dancers. They just select the best dancers, in the opinion of the judges, on that particular day. And I think Tiger has never seen me in competition, otherwise he/she would not have called me 'elitist'.

This Forum is for debate, not name calling. Me Hypocritical - I don't think so. I dance for fun, I compete for fun - where's the hypocricy?

Let's not beat about the bush. There are Ceroc Snobs/Hotshots: they don't dance with people they don't want to dance with. If you ask one of them to dance and they turn you down, don't ask them again. Don't let it bother you - but don't bother them again either. Ask me, I'll dance with you, man or woman, animal or vegetable

.. over to you tiger.

tiger
12th-October-2004, 07:39 PM
Hi Gadget.
Maybe you missed the point too: I'm agreeing with you and many others that noise/laughing etc are OUT OF ORDER.
But surely you cannot be serious in saying that people should go outside to have their quiet conversation?


Hi Andy McG,

It was you,not me, who seemed to think this post was directed at you. I didn't name anybody. Apols from me if you were sensitive on this issue. My comments came from a few months general veiwing on the forum.

The nature of a competition is to find out who is the best, isnt it?
Nothing wrong with that, or elitism.

The hipocracy is saying you will dance with anyone and then giving /showing the moral high ground to those who dont fit.

Andy McGregor
12th-October-2004, 08:28 PM
Hi Andy McG,

It was you, not me, who seemed to think this post was directed at you. I didn't name anybody. Apols from me if you were sensitive on this issue.

The description tiger gave fits me quite well, if it isn't me it's people like me. I'm not sensitive about anything (except cigarette smoke), just defending my corner - or the corner reserved for people like me.



The hypocrisy is saying you will dance with anyone and then giving /showing the moral high ground to those who dont fit.

Can't be me, I say I'll dance with anyone - and I dance with anyone. I take the moral high ground on moral issues and stay there - and if I think people are being immoral I might even be outspoken about it. No hypocrisy on either count as far as I can see - so it can't be me :clap:

Although I must admit that I'm not sure what point tiger is making so I could have misunderstood, sorry :blush:

Gadget
13th-October-2004, 09:23 AM
But surely you cannot be serious in saying that people should go outside to have their quiet conversation?
It was stated as a "Devils Advocate" statement - but why not? The argument is very strong for it; others paid to learn from a teacher - if you are dissrupting that, then you should either not be in the class to begin with, or leave the class.
If you are unwilling to join in, then you are more likley to be a dissruption, therefore the same rules apply.

What are the arguments against this?

Andy McGregor
13th-October-2004, 10:26 AM
What are the arguments against this?

I am in 100% agreement with Gadget. If people are going to sit out the lesson they shouldn't disrupt it. Chatting, laughing, practicing moves, etc disrupts the lesson.

The argument those non-lesson chatters give is that they've paid to come in they can do what they like. My counter-argument is that they haven't 'paid to come in' they've paid to attend a lesson. If they choose not to do the lesson they shouldn't disrupt it for those that have paid to do the lesson and want to get their moneys worth.

ChrisA
13th-October-2004, 11:00 AM
I am in 100% agreement with Gadget. If people are going to sit out the lesson they shouldn't disrupt it.

I don't think anyone would disagree with this!!

Could we have a little reality check here, though, please? Is there really a problem? If people chat quietly, is it really any disruption at all. Isn't there usually so much noise from the people chatting in the lesson that a few people at the side having a quiet conversation are in fact irrelevant?

In fact, I've been driven :mad: :mad: :mad: in lessons far more often because people in them are yak-yak-yakking to the point where I and others can't hear the teacher any more.

Ok, maybe very occasionally you get some ill-mannered gits who make a right royal racket and do disrupt an otherwise quiet lesson.

But I'm yet to be convinced it's a widespread problem.

Chris

Mary
13th-October-2004, 11:19 AM
I've paid my money to go to classes, and on occasion, have sat out and chatted. However, I always try to keep my voice low as it can be very disconcerting for a teacher doing his/her best work out there on stage, let alone disturbing those people who are trying to concentrate on the class.

Paying my money does not allow me to be rude, inconsiderate and disrespectful to other people. Although I'm sure we all, at times, get a little carried away. :rolleyes:

M

Lou
13th-October-2004, 12:24 PM
Could we have a little reality check here, though, please? Is there really a problem? If people chat quietly, is it really any disruption at all. Isn't there usually so much noise from the people chatting in the lesson that a few people at the side having a quiet conversation are in fact irrelevant?
:yeah:
And, like many others, I like to have a little chat when I'm sitting out, waiting to be rotated. So long as it's quiet, I can't see that chatting is a problem.

Andy McGregor
13th-October-2004, 12:24 PM
But I'm yet to be convinced it's a widespread problem.

Chris

No, I don't think it's widespread, but it is annoying when it happens as nobody's going to ask the noisy crowd of seated, possible Hotshots, to keep the noise down - if you did that they might not dance with you later :wink:

jivecat
13th-October-2004, 01:29 PM
No, I don't think it's widespread, but it is annoying when it happens as nobody's going to ask the noisy crowd of seated, possible Hotshots, to keep the noise down - if you did that they might not dance with you later :wink:


The teacher at Leicester has certainly given the crowd a good telling off recently- the ones participating in the class, not the sitters out. As someone just as guilty as anyone else of chatting my way through the lesson I have no problem with that. I'd rather something was said than the teacher gritting their teeth with irritation and it reminds everyone to be just a bit more considerate.

Gojive
13th-October-2004, 08:35 PM
I don't think anyone would disagree with this!!

Could we have a little reality check here, though, please? Is there really a problem? If people chat quietly, is it really any disruption at all. Isn't there usually so much noise from the people chatting in the lesson that a few people at the side having a quiet conversation are in fact irrelevant?

In fact, I've been driven :mad: :mad: :mad: in lessons far more often because people in them are yak-yak-yakking to the point where I and others can't hear the teacher any more.

Ok, maybe very occasionally you get some ill-mannered gits who make a right royal racket and do disrupt an otherwise quiet lesson.

But I'm yet to be convinced it's a widespread problem.

Chris

:yeah: ...especially the bit about those IN class who won't stop rabbiting!. I'm not sure if Bill/Sheona/Mari/Obi picked up on it, but during the classes they were running in Barcelona this year, there were at least two guys who wouldn't stop trying to chat up every female they rotated with! arrgh! :mad:

Gadget
14th-October-2004, 12:02 AM
It's a problem I've seen delt with most efectivly in two ways:

1) Lorna "Shhh"'s them - she was a school teacher, and treating the class like children seems to work every now & again.

2) when the mike packs in and the teacher starts to talk/demo; you can normally hear a pin drop because everyone is trying to listen to the teacher.

Dreadful Scathe
27th-October-2004, 09:29 AM
In fact, I've been driven :mad: :mad: :mad: in lessons far more often because people in them are yak-yak-yakking to the point where I and others can't hear the teacher any more.

Thats usually more likely, but anyone talking over the top of the teacher is a pain. As others have said, talking quietly isnt a problem but if the room is suddenly silent as everyone bar the talker is straining to hear the teacher you'd think they would be aware enough of where they are that they can at least pause in their banter until the teacher has finished speaking. Its that seeming lack of awareness that is most annoying.

senorita
27th-October-2004, 11:15 AM
I totally agree with mary.... You get there early and pay the money to do the class,.. it is annoying when you cant hear the teacher at all :( as others are gossiping away not respecting the others that really want to be there to learn more moves and progress to become a better dancer.

I also agree with gojive on the barcelona story....I have sat out of many classes for months now and now mostly come to the freestyle time,...as I feel very intimidated with guys often hitting on me and their not really interested in doing the class...this makes me :sad:.. I started to think its like a cattle market..