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Gus
22nd-October-2002, 05:57 AM
As I'll be away for a few weeks, I thought I'd leave a debating point behind.

In the Advanced Final, the brave Scottish coupled battled on heroicly against 4 teachers. Why no Scottish teachers? Well, the rules forbade entry by any Ceroc trained teachers and there did not appear to be an entry from LeRoc Scotland teachers. Is this fair?

Should ALL teachers be banned (level paying field?) or should ALL teachers be allowed to compete. Would this make for a more competitive, higher standard event or would it kill off the spirit that made the Champs such an awesome success?

I know we've debated this before but hindsight has a way of changing views.

So ....... your thoughts please.

{PS ... Franck/Scot - have you got a more formalised strategy for gaining feedback for next year .... after you get your breath back after this year?}

SwingSwingSwing
22nd-October-2002, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by Gus
In the Advanced Final, the brave Scottish coupled battled on heroicly against 4 teachers. Why no Scottish teachers? Well, the rules forbade entry by any Ceroc trained teachers and there did not appear to be an entry from LeRoc Scotland teachers. Is this fair?The rules for Advanced Freestyle stated "Dance teachers/ professionals are not allowed to enter this section" which I interpret as saying that no dance teacher, no matter what style or training, can enter. So, if the winning and third placed couples are indeed teachers, why were they allowed to compete?

Also, the Ceroc HQ web site lists an "Annalisa Martin" as being a teacher. Is this the same person who was in the third place couple?

SwingSwingSwing

Gadget
22nd-October-2002, 08:48 AM
I think that teachers became teachers because they love to dance and want to share it with everyone; to dissalow them to dance seems kind of cruel to me. :(
However, they are obviously some of the best dancers, so having them compete against the very people they are training is not very fair ~ how about a seperate category?

Scot
22nd-October-2002, 09:28 AM
Okay here goes

There was a discrepancy on the rules given out to competitors in that it did not specify "Ceroc" however the application forms which were issued well ahead of any rules indicated "Ceroc trained teachers only". This was an administrative error on my part and I do apologise. Putting this event together for the Red Cross at short notice was fraught with a few opportunities and that was one were I clearly slipped up. However in my defence I was quite specific on the application forms.

Now wrt teachers competing I have a view and it is a personal one only. Ceroc Teachers are not stopped from competing because they are that good, because at the end of the day I do not believe that is true and in my travels I have seen many people that freestyle only that are at least as good if not better than many teachers Ceroc or otherwise.

Teachers certainly within Ceroc are taught to teach moves accurately and to present the information in a concise manner. They are not taught any style or advanced dancing techniques. Any style that they have acquired has most likely come from self development or from attending the same style workshops that many freestyle people have attended.

Now the reason that I did not let Ceroc Teachers participate is not because they were better than anybody but rather because: 1) Had a Ceroc Teacher won there would probably be inferences of favouritism. 2.) In reality Ceroc Teachers would not probably have been given a fair chance because other Ceroc Teachers judging would probably have been worried about the first point.

Lastly at the end day this was primarily a Charity event and in that respect everyone that participated was a winner certainly for the Red Cross anyway.

There you go deep breath

Once again thanks for making it a great day...

Franck
22nd-October-2002, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Should ALL teachers be banned (level paying field?) or should ALL teachers be allowed to compete. Would this make for a more competitive, higher standard event or would it kill off the spirit that made the Champs such an awesome success?Well, with hindsight, my views are pretty much the same... :wink: I agree with Scot, Ceroc teachers should not be allowed to compete in any of the main Freestyle categories (except Lucky dip). On the other hand, I think that teachers of other dance organisations should be allowed to compete in the Advanced category (but not in the Intermediate). I don't see a discrepancy there, and as long as we are judging our own competition, we have to remove all possibilities of bias and un-fairness.
Scot and I stressed all along that we wanted the Scottish Comp. to be a more relaxed / fun event, and we certainly succeeded in that.

Originally posted by Gus
{PS ... Franck/Scot - have you got a more formalised strategy for gaining feedback for next year .... after you get your breath back after this year?} No formalised system in place yet. We have already received a few emails with suggestions / constructive criticism, and we would welcome more such feedback, as I am sure there are areas where we could have done better, after all, that was the first such event organized in Scotland, and as Scot says, he had precious little time to get it off the ground, and did a sterling job too!
Of course, this forum will be useful in gathering feedback and discussing next year's event.

Franck.

Bill
22nd-October-2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Scot
Okay here goes

Lastly at the end day this was primarily a Charity event and in that respect everyone that participated was a winner certainly for the Red Cross anyway.

There you go deep breath

Once again thanks for making it a great day... And it was a great day :D

I've already made a few comments privately and it's difficult to say too much with out appearing to be suffering from 'sour grapes' but I think there's a degree of naivety on our part in trying to make such an even purely for fun :eek: :tears:

Gus has made the point before and I've agreed, that the competiton between teachers down south to gain a reputation and to to add to their CV so that they can teach and do workshops is pretty fierce. There isn't the same level of rivalry here as there is down south so the Scotish Comp will attract more teachers - which in raising the profile and the standard is a good thing. However, it should be clear to Franck and Scot that these dancers are not competing for fun or contributing to the whole day but on the whole are there to win.

And of course there's nothing wrong with that - even if the rest of us do it for fun we still want to do our best on the day.

I think, as others have suggested, that an Open category as in Blackpool would be great as it would allow all teachers and professionals to compete and would be a great spectacle.

Franck and Scot are correct in saying that Ceroc teachers are not always better than some other dancers and they are not trained dancers but teachers. It is an issue that's been raised before and will be debated again no doubt but the Scottish Comp doersn't have to emulate the London Champs exactly so why not have 3 categories and see how many teachers want to compete agianst each other :rolleyes: :wink:

This shouldn't detract from what was a wonderful day and congrats to everyone who contributed and to Scot and the others for organising it at such short notice.

Franck
22nd-October-2002, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by bill foreman
However, it should be clear to Franck and Scot that these dancers are not competing for fun or contributing to the whole day but on the whole are there to win. Well I am sure we can take them on, and I reckon that if they make the effort to come to Scotland and take part in any category, then they will contribute to the day. After all, we all watching top dancers give their best on the day... So either way, it will be a great show.
It seems there is a lot of demand for an open category, and I would be interested in more feedback from everyone as to the pros and cons of an extra category. Nothing is set in stone, and we were under no obligation to follow the London format, it was just easier :wink:
It would be great to be able to call the event the "Ceroc Scottish Open" :waycool:

Franck.

Bill
22nd-October-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Franck
Well I am sure we can take them on, and I reckon that if they make the effort to come to Scotland and take part in any category, then they will contribute to the day.
Franck. When you say 'we' Franck.who are you referring to exactly :rolleyes: :grin: We have have some really 'fabby' dancers ( to use a phrase from someone I know !!) who can certainly compete at a high level but at the moment most of the best dancers in Scotland are actually the teachers who can't compete and some of the best men around don't want to compete.

As for contributing to the day - yep, just seeing great dancers is wonderful for the crowd and I heard a few dancers using the term 'inspired' which is great. However, some of these dancers won't add anything more - nor perhaps should they have to.

Although both James and Elliot entered the Lucky Dip which was great but many others who compete only for the title will attend for the one competition and then leave.

The only other suggestin I would make would be to leave a gap late afternoon and have all the finals after a rest ( and not just because I was knackered :what: ) but having them about 7.00 would be a nice way to kick off the evening and allow more freestyle and give everyone a breather.

DavidB
22nd-October-2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by bill foreman
However, it should be clear to Franck and Scot that these dancers are not competing for fun or contributing to the whole day but on the whole are there to win.I'll remember next time I go to a competition that
- I shouldn't dance with anyone else
- I'm not allowed to enjoy myself
- I shouldn't have to pay the same as everyone else to get in, because I'm not interested in the freestyle

I'll make sure I keep an eye on Roger Chin, Clayton & Janine, Ray, Heather (the London one), Amir & Kate, Graham & Sarah etc and make sure they don't dance with anyone but their partner.

Sorry Bill, but that is a complete load of b*******s!

David

John S
22nd-October-2002, 12:04 PM
As someone who is happy to be in the Intermediate sections and has no expectations or ambitions to ever be in an Advanced section, I would definitely like to see teachers and dance profesionals excluded from the Advanced - an Open section seems fine, if sufficient numbers could be attracted. Don't know who would do the judging, though - an audience clapometer???

If that doesn't happen, then those non-professional / social / fun dancers who are well above the current Intermediate competition standard will be squeezed out of the Advanced, and to have any chance of success they will enter the Intermediate section, which is already overcrowded - I guess 90% of the dancers who actually attend a competition event such as Musselburgh/Blackpool/London are at roughly the same (ie Intermediate) level.

Graham
22nd-October-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by John S
As someone who is happy to be in the Intermediate sections and has no expectations or ambitions to ever be in an Advanced section, I would definitely like to see teachers and dance profesionals excluded from the Advanced - an Open section seems fine, if sufficient numbers could be attracted. Don't know who would do the judging, though - an audience clapometer???

If that doesn't happen, then those non-professional / social / fun dancers who are well above the current Intermediate competition standard will be squeezed out of the Advanced, and to have any chance of success they will enter the Intermediate section, which is already overcrowded - I guess 90% of the dancers who actually attend a competition event such as Musselburgh/Blackpool/London are at roughly the same (ie Intermediate) level.
Clearly not very many people believe themselves to be advanced - perhaps if there were another category which included teachers this might encourage more people to "move up", which would hopefully have the knock-on effect of encouraging more people to enter intermediate. Personally, having now attended my first competition, I realise that the intermediate category could be at least as much fun (with a like-minded partner) as the Lucky Dip, but only if it's not so packed with good dancers that it's really guaranteed you'll get eliminated in the first round.

The judging for an open category could be a problem, but as you really only need 3 or 4, not an insurmountable one, surely? I mean, I'm sure there must be one or two people who would just never ever want to enter anyway. Alternatively, maybe John's suggestion isn't so bad - why not have a panel of "audience" judges (let's say people who had entered intermediate or advanced, to ensure some degree of modern jive knowledge) scoring, and discarding the highest/lowest score, as in figure skating and gymnastics.

Scot
22nd-October-2002, 01:14 PM
Now that is quite a good idea.

We will give that one some thought for the next event

Scot

DavidB
22nd-October-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Graham
perhaps if there were another category which included teachers this might encourage more people to "move up", which would hopefully have the knock-on effect of encouraging more people to enter intermediate.I'm all in favour of more categories. But don't have too many - otherwise the audience can lose interest.
The audience is the biggest difference between 'swing' comps and ballroom comps. In 'swing' comps the audience will watch and support everybody in every round. In ballroom you only watch your friends and the top category. You don't want to lose the audience, whatever you do.
The judging for an open category could be a problemAnother way is to let each couple dance individually, and let the other competitors judge. It only tends to work when you have enough couples taking part (5 or more).

David

Franck
22nd-October-2002, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Graham
The judging for an open category could be a problem, but as you really only need 3 or 4, not an insurmountable one, surely? Another problem in my view, is that at the top level (which we are trying to attract / serve with an open category), all dancers will be very good, and what we will be judging won't be how good they are, but how popular / fashionable their style of dancing is... This is not a big deal, but worth bearing in mind. The idea of a panel of judges from the audience is an interesting one indeed, and could lead to some interesting results... :nice:

Great ideas so far, so keep them coming.
The Scottish Comp. is smaller and therefore more flexible, I am sure we can make it the best in the land if we try! :wink:

Franck.

JYork18
22nd-October-2002, 04:36 PM
It is with a little trepidation that I join this discussion, but I feel I'd like to add something.

First of all - A MASSIVE CONGRATULATIONS TO THE ENTIRE TEAM WHO ORGANISED AND RAN THE EVENT. Having been to many competitions mostly as a spectator (only twice to compete - once in the lucky dip, and once three years ago to compete in the intermediate) , the Scottish Championships was the first one that actually ran to time, had a fiar and unbiased judging system, encouraged dancers from all over the country to compete and still managed to keep a fun atmosphere throughout the whole day! I will certainly be back again next year!!

Which brings me to the reply to this thread. It is really unfortunate that the debate over teacher entry has raised it's head in this forum, and yet I completely understand the reasons why. Before I give my personal opinion on teacher entry, I would like to further the comments made by DavidB (3rd place Advanced). At NO POINT prior to entry or during the competition did I feel as though I was there just to win! It is for this reason that Lynn and I came to Scotland on the Saturday to come to the freestyle. Both of us dance for the enjoyment, not the competition, and in fact Lynn only entered with me at the last moment because my original partner was too young according to the Ceroc rules! (She was only 17). So far as us both being teachers is concerned - Lynn has only been teaching for 6 months, and in a part of the UK that only attracts about 200 people a week, of which 1/4 attend her venue! As for me - I have been approached to teach by several Jive organisations but have had to turn them all down because my job (where I travel 1000 miles a week) doesn't allow me to commit to a regular venue. I have, however, been asked to teach workshops in the past - to which I have agreed, but these I could count on one hand!! I have never recieved any formal teacher training apart from the logistics behind jumps and lifts which were banned from this competition anyway!! The reason I'm up on my soap box, is that I'm really disappointed that it has been voiced that: and I quote:

"However, it should be clear to Franck and Scot that these dancers are not competing for fun or contributing to the whole day but on the whole are there to win." I completely agree with David - we paid our money, danced our socks off with as many people as possible and in my opinion contributed to the day as a whole. Had david not been there, £1000 of shoes would not have been sold contributing a further £150 to the Red Cross, and I couldn't begin to tell you how many people approached Lynn and I after the comp. congratulating us and showering us with compliments. One lady told Lynn that she would have "paid the money just to watch us dance" - which I think sums up the contribution we made to the competition!! I know you say there are no sour groups Bill, but are you sure?

Whew!! I've just read that back, and realise that I may be coming on a little strong! Having danced in nearly all the venues in Scotland, and enjoyed myself there more than anywhere else in England, I don't want to jeopardise my entry in the future! Deep Breath James!

What I think this thread has highlighted though is that for next year, a separate category does need to be adopted to allow teachers to compete. In a conversation I had with Franck, he even said that it is the advanced category people love to watch! I agree - as it does manage to showcase the "best of the best". So why not have a "showcase" category. Allow anyone to enter, including teachers, keep it freestyle but maybe have it judged by the audience, not by the team of judges that are there for the rest of the categories. Give every member of the audience a voting form, and let them decide. Keep the prize simple (no money for example) - which will keep the "professional competitors" away, and give the limelight grabbing titles to the advanced category instead of the showcase which will keep the "CV builders" away! That way - people like David and myself will still be able to enter, but will hopefully stop people considering themselves unworthy for a place in the "advanced" category.

A final point - I think that it is the names of the categories that stop people from entering. This year, only 5 couples entered the "advanced" whereas in my opinion, there were at least 5 couples in the "intermediate" that could easily have held their own in the advanced. By calling it an "advanced" category you only appeal to people who consider themselves advanced dancers, which to be brutally honest is usually those who are very confident; self assured; and who have usually been around the Jive circuit for years. It is difficult to find an altenative that suits everybody but how about this:

Category A: Dancers with less than 1 years Jive experience.

Cateogry B: Dancers with between 1 and 3 years Jive experience

Category C: Dancers with more than 3 years experience.

Category D: Showcase.

I know that some people improve over time whereas others plateau much sooner, but something on these lines may encourage more competitors without them having to pigeon hole their ability?

I don't know - it's definitely an interesting debate, and I look forward to keeping up with it's progress.

THANK YOU ALL ONCE AGAIN, for making the weekend of the 19th 20th October so enjoyable!

P.S. Where do you dance Bill? It's just that I managed to grab David for a dance, and Elliot, but couldn't seem to find you at an appropriate moment. Gender bias? What's that? Look forward to seeing you all again soon when I'm back North of the Border.

James

Franck
22nd-October-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by JYork18
It is with a little trepidation that I join this discussion, but I feel I'd like to add something. Wow! that was some post James...
I am glad to finally be able to put a face to the name / and to the many reports of you dancing like me :wink:

I agree with many of your points, and your contribution to the day was very important. I would hate to discourage dancers or teachers from entering.
The main lesson here is that rules must be clearly defined in advance, and then strictly enforced. I don't believe there are any sour grapes from any competitors, and any points raised so far, have been very important as feedback, so we can improve next year.
I am sure that there are people who take competitions very seriously (at the expense of the event themselves) but none were in Musselburgh on Sunday. Everyone who was there danced their socks off with everyone else, which explains why everyone was so emphatically positive about the day.

Originally posted by JYork18
A final point - I think that it is the names of the categories that stop people from entering. This year, only 5 couples entered the "advanced" whereas in my opinion, there were at least 5 couples in the "intermediate" that could easily have held their own in the advanced.I think you have a point there, and we should be thinking of re-naming all the categories. However, due to either modesty or a desire to be a "big fish in a small pond", we will never avoid people who register below their abilities... :wink:

Thanks for your kind words about Scotland, and I can assure you that you will be more than welcome in future visits.

Franck.

DavidB
22nd-October-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by JYork18
DavidB (3rd place Advanced)My quote, but not my dancing!! I was stuck in London practicing for a cabaret this weekend. (And I teach once a year, so I thought I couldn't compete.)

There are people who take competing very seriously. It is their choice, their money, their time. They can do what they want with it. But virtually all the serious competitors dance for fun as well, and probably do more freestyle than 90% of jivers. There are a couple of exceptions who prefer competing and performing to social dancing, but so what. Are you going to put it in the rules that you can only compete if you have at least 20 dances in the evening???

I did post a lot prior to the competition, but the alternative was to wait until now and say "I've seen that happen before." As it turns out I wouldn't have had much to say. I've never seen anything like this. No-one has complained about the venue, the organisation, the timekeeping, the judging, the music, the winners, the compere etc. Even though I wasn't there I have to congratulate Scot and everyone else for running such a good event.

David Barker

DavidB
22nd-October-2002, 07:56 PM
And I apologise to Bill - my earlier post was a bit ott. Sorry.:sorry :sorry :sorry

Wendy
22nd-October-2002, 09:42 PM
Re. teachers

Go on, go on, go on .....let them play !!!

" A good teacher does not necessarily a Fred Astaire make "
(old Chinese proverb :wink: )

Wx

Bowser
22nd-October-2002, 11:57 PM
Wendy, I love the proverb :) made me chuckle

There is another which has not much to do with the post but with fred astair... "Look at Fred with awe then remember that Ginger Rogers did everything he did BUT Backwards and in High Heels!"

this topic has been a very interesting read :)

Sunday was fantastic... thanks Scot and to all behind the scenes and in front ;)

Bill
23rd-October-2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
And I apologise to Bill - my earlier post was a bit ott. Sorry.:sorry :sorry :sorry No offence taken I assure you :D

Maybe my comments were misinterpreted and I wasn't making any comments about who won on Sunday ( honest James !:innocent: ).

If you look back at some of the comments on this site you'll see the whole debate about competitions and the categories has been going on for a while and my comments are based partly on what some teachers and competitiors have said to me about how important it can be to have a title or a place to use on a CV to 'sell' themselves' so they can teach or run workshops. And as I said I can fully understand that and there's nothing wrong with that. But I wasn't suggesting that all, or even the majority of dancers from down south were competing for those reasons.

And as you noted yourself on stage - you were applauded by the crowd for winning the competition and no-one here has suggested that you and Lynn didn't deserve to win. It's just that, as Scot has indicated, there was an error which led to a mix up over whether teachers could enter - regardless of how long they had been teaching. The same would have been true if you and Sarah had come up to compete. The rules say over 18's and as she's under 18 she would have been unable to compete in Scotland - though other competitons obviously overlook this.


I only had one 'complaint' about the judges decision and I've passed that on already - and it was not the Advanced result but a couple I feel were 'overlooked' in the Intermediate :mad:

And sorry I missed that dance with you James :D :wink: . maybe next time :cheers: I think you're right about the titles of the category but not sure how to change that. It took me 4 years to pluck up the courage to enter the Advanced category and I still get very nervous and at London and Blackpool feel very much the novice :sick:

Duration of dancing might not be the best way as some dancers might only have 1 night to choose from whereas others could have 3 or 4 and so learn both moves and style much quicker. Timescale also led to problems in London where entrants for the Beginners section a few years ago had to dance for less than 6 months and difficult to make sure everyone had been dancing only for 6 months - so how would you ensure dancers had been dancing for up to a year - up to 2/3 years etc???? But certainly something Scot and Franck can think about.

On a personal note can I say that Fran and I ( I'm using her computer at the moment) are delighted the two of you came up so that the crowd could see what the standard is like down south and if you read some of the replies you'll see that no commenst are actually aimed at you personally and a number of dancers have been inspired to pratice and get ready for Blackpool and London.

All the best and we hope to meet up with you again soon.

Dreadful Scathe
23rd-October-2002, 05:24 PM
oi Bill stop posting as Fran its confusing :)

Dancing Veela
23rd-October-2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
oi Bill stop posting as Fran its confusing :)

Well it kinda goes with those red shoes of his!

John S
25th-October-2002, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Wendy
" A good teacher does not necessarily a Fred Astaire make "
(old Chinese proverb :wink: )Did I hear my name??? :o

Wendy
25th-October-2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by John S
Did I hear my name??? :o

Dear John (oops did that come out wrong :confused: :devil: )

I don't think I've had the pleasure of dancing with you yet so dance with me and I'll let you know if it applies to you or not :wink: :wink: :wink: Bet you're fab !!!!

Wx

PS And God knows what the Chinese would have to say about female taxis anyway !!!!! Something like "she is chosen not for her great dancing but for her skill in keeping the funny men smiling" :cheers:

John S
25th-October-2002, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Wendy


I don't think I've had the pleasure of dancing with you yet so dance with me and I'll let you know if it applies to you or not :wink: :wink: :wink: Bet you're fab !!!!

You're right, Wendy,I don't think we've danced together (if you're at Marco's on Saturday ask one of the Dundee gang to point me out) but don't build up your expectations - I think Franck gave me the "Fred" name in some sort of dance-induced haze of post-modern irony, but as you see from my avatar (or from my Team Dundee cabaret photo) I'm the one with the short fat hairy legs who looks more like Barney Rubble. Or to use another analogy from the forum, I'm the Tesco Own Brand Chocbar to Bill's finest Belgian Chocolate.
:sad:


PS And God knows what the Chinese would have to say about female taxis anyway !!!!! Something like "she is chosen not for her great dancing but for her skill in keeping the funny men smiling" :cheers:

Or maybe
Female taxi often needed to help move men who cannot lead themselves from one position to next
:nice:

Wendy
25th-October-2002, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by John S


I'm the one with the short fat hairy legs who looks more like Barney Rubble. Or to use another analogy from the forum, I'm the Tesco Own Brand Chocbar to Bill's finest Belgian Chocolate.
:sad:


When will you guys realise that the way you look or how long your legs are has absolutely no bearing on how we girls feel when we dance with you !!!! (Franck we really need a Munch scream face for this !!!!)

Oh no I feel a feminist blast of wisdom (???) about to be unleashed !!!!

Men are great (become beautiful !! ) because of their skill (I'm talking dancing here but that also applies to tennis, millionnaires and the rest !!!) I'd much rather dance with Fred Astaire than Brad Pitt !!!

On the other hand you guys would queue up to dance with a gorgeous women even if she wasn't the best dancer. (Why do us girls make such a fuss about our clothes and make-up etc every party night ????) The best dancers make us FEEL like we're gorgeous. I'm convinced that dance was invented by some ugly git who couldn't pull the best-looking bird !!!

CEROC sooooo reflects the real world.:tears: :tears: :tears:

I can live with that though... most of the time... then there's a record I just know and love and go wild to and most men jump back in horror cos I dare to do a break or something.. they think they've lost the upper hand ... oh no I didn't realise all this was lurking under that smiling exterior !!!! I need another massage Arrrrggghhhhh !!!!

Wxxx

Grant
26th-October-2002, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Wendy
When will you guys realise that the way you look or how long your legs are has absolutely no bearing on how we girls feel when we dance with you !!!! (Franck we really need a Munch scream face for this !!!!)

Oh no I feel a feminist blast of wisdom (???) about to be unleashed !!!!

Men are great (become beautiful !! ) because of their skill (I'm talking dancing here but that also applies to tennis, millionnaires and the rest !!!) I'd much rather dance with Fred Astaire than Brad Pitt !!!

On the other hand you guys would queue up to dance with a gorgeous women even if she wasn't the best dancer. (Why do us girls make such a fuss about our clothes and make-up etc every party night ????) The best dancers make us FEEL like we're gorgeous. I'm convinced that dance was invented by some ugly git who couldn't pull the best-looking bird !!!

CEROC sooooo reflects the real world.:tears: :tears: :tears:

I can live with that though... most of the time... then there's a record I just know and love and go wild to and most men jump back in horror cos I dare to do a break or something.. they think they've lost the upper hand ... oh no I didn't realise all this was lurking under that smiling exterior !!!! I need another massage Arrrrggghhhhh !!!!

Wxxx Don't hold back girl , tell us what you really think!:D

As for the best looking people winning out, that happens everywhere - why would Ceroc be any different?

At least at Ceroc the women have a chance to be recognised for their skills as well as their looks. And if they have both :yum: :D

Grant

Bill
27th-October-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Wendy
On the other hand you guys would queue up to dance with a gorgeous women even if she wasn't the best dancer. (Why do us girls make such a fuss about our clothes and make-up etc every party night ????) Given all the comments about how good looking and how wonderful Elliot is then looks as if some men have it all ! :wink: :eek:

But I have to disagree withyour comment there Wendy. I'm sure a lot of men would dance with an attractive woman but if she didn't dance that well they may not be back too quickly for another ! However, if it was fun then just as a woman might enjoy a dance with a man who wasn't wonderful then he might ask for anotehr dance.

But is there any point in making too much fuss about make-up etc when after 10 mins of dancing most dancers are all hot & sweaty anyway ??? (think this has been touched on elsewhere !)
The best dancers make us FEEL like we're gorgeous. I'm convinced that dance was invented by some ugly git who couldn't pull the best-looking bird !!! Mmmmmmmmm........:eek: :sick: ............ well Wendy does that mean that a man who makes you feel gorgeous is more likely to be an ugly git :confused: :D Careful how you reply now
:grin: :wink:

Wendy
27th-October-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by bill foreman


Mmmmmmmmm........:eek: :sick: ............ well Wendy does that mean that a man who makes you feel gorgeous is more likely to be an ugly git :confused: :D Careful how you reply now
:grin: :wink:

Oh Jeez !!! That'll teach me not to drink too much Chardonnay when I'm on the forum (that must be why I never EVER ever drink when I dance !!!! and from now on I'm not going to talk either !!!!)

OK I'll just polish my spade as I dig myself out of this one !!!

Here goes ...

In my humble opinion (yeh that'll be a first n'est-ce pas Janet !!!) and my admittedly limited experience of the workings of the world... :innocent: and I did live in France for a long time ....

Women (OK I'll personalise this) I want to dance with men because they are talented (of course many of them just happen to be gorgeous as well :wink: ) I wanted to dance with Elliot, for instance, because of the way he danced, I didn't realise how handsome he was till I got up close :yum: (I am short-sighted and don't wear glasses at CEROC- would really like to dance with my eyes shut a lot of the time - and that's not because the guy is ugly - just before I get mobbed !!!)

I'll just say that Sven Yorrick Machin probably didn't go out with Ulrika bacause she was a good footballer and stop there....

Wxxx

Graham
27th-October-2002, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by bill foreman
But I have to disagree withyour comment there Wendy. I'm sure a lot of men would dance with an attractive woman but if she didn't dance that well they may not be back too quickly for another ! However, if it was fun then just as a woman might enjoy a dance with a man who wasn't wonderful then he might ask for anotehr dance.
No doubt you don't get a chance to observe at a class/party, being pursued as you are by your fans :wink: , but I think you'll find a pretty beginner woman will get asked to dance rather more often than one who is hmm :what: better be careful here :wink: not quite as pretty. I agree that if she's completely hopeless many men will just leave it at that, but if she's merely of average ability, then I would say that she's going to continue to get asked more frequently than she otherwise might. I've even heard of taxi dancers who exhibit this behaviour :really: (although I'm sure not BTC ones :wink: )

Wendy
27th-October-2002, 03:19 PM
Thanks MIB :waycool: Graham.

And that's why you're in my "Knights in Shining Armour" team !!!

Wxxx

PS Wasn't that chocolate fondue we had last night with the marshmallows and strawberries just fab !!! :yum: almost worth missing the Ed party for :wink:

PPS Isn't this thread about teachers ??? :confused: :innocent:

PPPS When does Gus get back again to stir up trouble and take some of this pressure off !!! :D

Gus
27th-October-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Wendy
PPPS When does Gus get back again to stir up trouble and take some of this pressure off !!! :D Oh yeah of little faith ... do you think I would leave you alone to carry out your deliberations without my 'guidance'??:grin:

No ... sorry .. Internet access a bit haphazard (as is my spelling after numerous drinks and 5 hours of dancing .... just got back to the Hotel after the NZ Ceroc Ball) ... anyway ... thinks look a bit boring at the moment ... will add my twopenneth later ....

Wendy
27th-October-2002, 03:43 PM
Whew !!! Great to have you back !!!

And when will you dance with me again oh Wise One with the Twinkle Toes !!!


Wx

Ps Girls, just in case you didn't know, Gus is witty and clever and he can really dance !!! and he is (was??) a teacher which rounds off this nice little thread !!!!

CJ
27th-October-2002, 05:20 PM
10 out of 10!!

Nice recovery.

Wendy
27th-October-2002, 07:24 PM
Why thank you, kind sir !!!

And that's why you are in my "Fave DJ's of all Time " team !!!!

Wx

:cheers:

PS So now we can really put this nice thread to bed !!!!:wink:

Dancing Veela
28th-October-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Wendy

I wanted to dance with Elliot, for instance, because of the way he danced, I didn't realise how handsome he was till I got up close :yum: (I am short-sighted and don't wear glasses at CEROC- would really like to dance with my eyes shut a lot of the time - and that's not because the guy is ugly - just before I get mobbed !!!)


I made the mistake of really getting into the dance I had with Elliot and rather than watch him smiling into my eyes - which was a bit off putting because he is SOOOOO young (and gorgeous) - I closed my eyes and was doing my attempt at style - only to be rudely awoken by Elliot's hand on my stomach - pushing me backwards into a walk (obviously he didn't think much of the style I was putting into it!!!!!!) - I did feel a tad foolish - especially as he was grinning at me when I did open my eyes.

Maybe that's another category we could have in a competition - blindfolded!!!!!!!

Jayne
28th-October-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela

Maybe that's another category we could have in a competition - blindfolded!!!!!!!


mmmmmmm :wink: :nice: :grin: :what: Let me just entertain that thought for a while.... I know which team I'm heading for Wendy - may the best girl get there first!! :wink:

Could be a slightly challenging category - what a shame I'd miss all of those false pretzels :reallymad.....

Jayne
:nice:

Rachel
28th-October-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela
Maybe that's another category we could have in a competition - blindfolded!!!!!!! Have you seen that they had a 'girls blindfolded' category in the Australian Ceroc Championships this year?

(I'm with those of you who dance with your eyes closed, though - I find I do it a lot of the time!)
Rachel

Bill
28th-October-2002, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela


I did feel a tad foolish - especially as he was grinning at me when I did open my eyes.

Maybe that's another category we could have in a competition - blindfolded!!!!!!!


Welllll............... maybe Scot and Franck could introdcue that next year !:D Do you mean just the women to be blindfolded ?

You......... feeling foolish Veela..........surely not !:p The stories young Elliot must have from Sunday !

CJ
28th-October-2002, 01:34 PM
I know Ozzy guys have a reputation for being no oil paintings but is that not a little harsh, even for their thick skins?

Just thinking about blindfolded girls........ does that mean next years comp will have an "inventive things to do with food" category?

Never mentioned chocolate once!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

Rachel
29th-October-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Just thinking about blindfolded girls........ does that mean next years comp will have an "inventive things to do with food" category? Or handcuffs???

Well ... YOU started it!

CJ
29th-October-2002, 12:40 PM
I take it boa feathers were covered in the cabaret section?

I never dun nuffin, guv.

Gus
29th-October-2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Wendy
Gus is witty and clever and he can really dance !!! and he is (was??) a teacher which rounds off this nice little thread !!!! Sounds like charater assisnation to me .... witty and clever .. careful, my acerbic reputation will be blown at this rate:sorry

Looking forward to getting back to joining the debate ... looks like that post the champs there has been an air of euphoria on the bulltin board ... lomng may it continue.
Can't wait to see you all te the 10 year party ...

PS ... managed to 'borrow' some great new NZ moves which I'll hopefully incorprate into the Gus workshops.

Graham
29th-October-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
Or handcuffs???

Well ... YOU started it! Have I stumbled into the restricted S&M section of the forum? :really: :wink:

Franck
29th-October-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Have I stumbled into the restricted S&M section of the forum? :really: :wink: That would be Style & Musical interpretation I presume? :D :D

Franck.

Rachel
30th-October-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Have I stumbled into the restricted S&M section of the forum? :really: :wink: No, don't be silly, Graham, where do you get that idea from? It's not restricted at all - everyone's welcome!
Rachel

Bill
30th-October-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
No, don't be silly, Graham, where do you get that idea from? It's not restricted at all - everyone's welcome!
Rachel

Rachel..............do you mean everyone :confused: :D hold on til lI catch that train.......................:p

Rachel
30th-October-2002, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by bill foreman


Rachel..............do you mean everyone :confused: :D hold on til lI catch that train.......................:p AHA! Found your weak spot... I knew there must be a way of luring you down here somehow so that I could finally get a dance with you. I still need it to be proved to me that anything could possibly be better than chocolate.

Bill
30th-October-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
AHA! Found your weak spot... I knew there must be a way of luring you down here somehow so that I could finally get a dance with you. I still need it to be proved to me that anything could possibly be better than chocolate.



Just remember I didn't say that :eek: :rolleyes: and definitley not good chocolate.....more your milky bar stuff !!!!!!:p :(

Look forward to that dance.:D

Dreadful Scathe
31st-October-2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Wendy


On the other hand you guys would queue up to dance with a gorgeous women even if she wasn't the best dancer.

I doubt if most would. What would be the point, it's not as if you can do much chatting up when dancing even if the woman was awful and stood around looking perplexed most of the time.

Hmm. Perplexed. I think I see that expression in a lot of my partners. :grin:

Tiggerbabe
1st-November-2002, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by bill foreman

and definitley not good chocolate.....more your milky bar stuff !!!!!!:p :(


Bill, sweetheart - don't you know that Milky Bars are definitely GOOD:yum: :yum: :yum: chocolate :wink:

Gadget
1st-November-2002, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by Wendy
Men are great (become beautiful !! ) because of their skill
"Beautiful" I would question, and I don't think that it's the skill that makes great dancers appealing, I think that it is more to do with the fringe benifits that skill gets you: More confidence and belief in yourself, the admiration and envy of others giving you the aparant air or aura of cool :waycool:


On the other hand you guys would queue up to dance with a gorgeous women even if she wasn't the best dancer..
Some perhaps, but in my (limited) experiance, the georgeous women are only approached by those who are unafraid of a refusal - those with a high skill level (ie self belief), or those who have enough arrogance to think that they will never be turned down.
Ceroc's 'No refusal' policy breaks this down a bit, but it's deep seated mentality.


The best dancers make us FEEL like we're gorgeous...
I think you put too much value in physical asthetics; if you feel that way on the dance floor, it shows in your dancing, and you look gorgeous. {even if it is only for one song :p}<-sarcasm


I'm convinced that dance was invented by some ugly git who couldn't pull the best-looking bird !!!
I think that dancing was around before me, so your theory could be wrong.:wink: