Honest feedback/comments on venues and events

[Gus]

OK ... maybe this is being far too optimistic but...

Would it be possible to set up a section of the Forum where members could post honest comments about venues/events. If there was a template so that you could score (1 -5 stars) for criteria such as music, dance floor, dancers, friendliness, lesson etc as well as an option to add comments. I KNOW there is always the danger of it being prone to the luvy brigade getting involved, and promoters slagging off competing events ... but would it be worth it to give it a go. We've sort of had some of this already w.r.t. Hipsters and T-Jive. It could be really nice to see it cover some of the clubs outside that Hell-Hole restrained by the M25.

Good Idea / Bad Idea?

[Lou]

Good idea.

Except we already do it in Bristol at the LeRoc In Bristol site. :grin: Mostly it works well....

[philsmove]

Except we already do it in Bristol at the LeRoc In Bristol site. Mostly it works well....
Better than that I think its brilliant :clap:

The organises have taken on board many of the criticisms. the result
- more people going to dances and lessons
- Dancers having a better time
-Organises making a bit more dosh (yes I know they only do for their love of dance :hug: )

[Gus]

Good idea.

Except we already do it in Bristol at the LeRoc In Bristol site. :grin: Mostly it works well....

Apologies :blush: ... I knew I'd seen something of this ilk somewhere and couldn't remember where. Will have to have a proper look.

[bigdjiver]

Good idea, but it will be very subjective and possibly misleading. I get enough quality dancing for my needs in the Ceroc Central area, and have not ventured into a London night for over a year now. How could I compare venues rated on my scale against other people who rate against the best Scottish venue, or best London venue ?


Phil at Ceroc Central, and I would guess most Ceroc Franchisees, will do everything he can to ensure that the venue and staff reach a good standard. The one thing beyond control is who attends. Some venues remain beginner venues, and limp along for a long time, the better dancers migrating to other venues. Venues sometimes go through phases too, declining for no obvious reason, then (mostly) recovering.
The % of high intermediate and advanced dancers would be useful, but also very subjective. A Friendliness rating would be useful too, but it only takes a few good folk to make someone feel welcome, and that can be very hit and miss.

Another problem is keeping it current. Sometimes a teacher or DJ goes into decline. The franchisee may fix the situation, but by then the forum member is likely to have moved on, and the fact may never get reported. I would suggest that ratings based on people factors have a short life span, or that all ratings be dated.

Rating a venue on appearances can also very misleading. My favourite is the spacious and classy Kettering venue, set in Wicksteed Park, with flower gardens outside, but when the class was forced to relocate to Wellingborough, the result has been an upsurge in numbers and quality of dancing. (The ever popular tea dance is still at Wicksteed on 17th Oct).

For all of the difficulties, I think better to have a rating system than not.

[CJ]

The biggest single problem I have with this idea (which, it has to be said, is still a fairly good one) is that the forum tends to be full of people who are more intense about their MJ experience...

i.e. most Forumites dance more than once a week; will go to various venues, weekenders, etc; are intermediate or above (notable exceptions, obviously) and care, usually quite passionately, about MJ.

So, the problem, potentially, is that we have a vocal minority dictating the running of something designed for the lowest common denominator...

Discuss...

[Gus]

i.e. most Forumites dance more than once a week; will go to various venues, weekenders, etc; are intermediate or above (notable exceptions, obviously) and care, usually quite passionately, about MJ.

So, the problem, potentially, is that we have a vocal minority dictating the running of something designed for the lowest common denominator...

Discuss...But .... as these dancers (arguably) have a wider experience they will be better able to make comparisons to other clubs. The danger would be a dancer with limited experience going to Club A and saying it has "the best music ever" when they havent really heard the full spectrum of music available.

Methinks the scoring of a club can be both relative and absolute. A relative assesmnet would be the standard of the dancers or the venue. An absolute assesment is 'did I enjoy myself'?

I think the system is open to many flaws but then again so is the forum itself. User tend to accept the flaws and take that into account when making an assessment. At the end of the day I would prefer to read an assesment of another club, no matter how flawed, before deciding whether to make a trek or not. If there were a number of postings about Hipsters ... there would be strong opinions for and against ... from that I could hopefully make an informed choice.

[RobC]

Good idea, I think, but I agree that anything reported should be timestamped. What happens, for example if someone does a review of a venue when there is another big event such as one of the popular weekenders happening at the same time. To say that there are no/few good dancers there would be very unfair as they are likely to have been drawn away to the one-off event rather than attending their usual regular night.

Another thought - rather than having it here on the forum, where I think most will agree we are a fairly unique minority of dancers, why not approach Uk-Jive and see if they would be willing to extent their listing to add a reviews section - kinda like how sites such as Amazon have book reviews shown after the synopsis ? I'm sure that we would get a better cross section of dancers reading and contributing then.

[Gus]

Another thought - rather than having it here on the forum, where I think most will agree we are a fairly unique minority of dancers, why not approach Uk-Jive and see if they would be willing to extent their listing to add a reviews section - kinda like how sites such as Amazon have book reviews shown after the synopsis ? I'm sure that we would get a better cross section of dancers reading and contributing then.

Good suggestion ... but ... UKJive is more of a commercial site that only has a small degree of separation from its customers ... the dance organisations who post their events and take out advertising space. If a club started getting negative rep from the site they might withdraw their custom. Ceroc Scotland is more of an open community and so wouldnt have so much of an issue. Having said that (ODA-ing myself) I think your suggestion and the Amazon analogy are excellent and could be a better solution.

[bigdjiver]

... most Forumites dance more than once a week; will go to various venues, weekenders, etc; are intermediate or above (notable exceptions, obviously) and care, usually quite passionately, about MJ.

So, the problem, potentially, is that we have a vocal minority dictating the running of something designed for the lowest common denominator...
I think most people primarily go to classes to learn how to dance, and / or as a form of speed dating, whereas I would guess most forum members go to dance and meet their friends. I suspect a venue that forumites rate very highly may not attract the same throughput of beginners, and the venue may suffer financially, unless it can draw from other classes.

[Gadget]

But .... as these dancers (arguably) have a wider experience they will be better able to make comparisons to other clubs. The danger would be a dancer with limited experience going to Club A and saying it has "the best music ever" when they havent really heard the full spectrum of music available.
:yeah:
But I think it's a poor idea:

- Any negative response or feedback about a venue/event should be made to the organiser so that they can do something to put it right. If this feedback influences people and prevents them from turning up in future, then you have taken away their chance to improve.

- Every night is different. You may go one night and hate a couple of tracks, find that there are very few 'inspirational' dancers and generally have a bad night. If this was one of your first visits to that venue, it would taint your picture of it; every other night may be excelent.

- Opinion can only really be put down as "well, I liked it." personal tastes and opinions vary so much that you can't expect everyone to like the same things that you do.

- Most people here are 'passionate' about MJ, as such would be more likley to only post glowing reviews rather than negative ones

- By posting positive reviews, people may be attempting to get more/better dancers at their local/regular venue for themselves to dance with rather than an honest opinion.

I just can't get past the fact that every night is different and you can't judge a venue without experianceing it for a long time - then it becomes irrelevant if a main factor changes like the DJ, teacher, "inspirational" dancers...

{:rolleyes: in saying that, personally I would choose to go the Tuesday or Wednesday venues in Aberdeen before the Thursday one; simply because of the cobblestone dance floor. Although the atmosphere is seemingly one of the best}

[Lou]

So, the problem, potentially, is that we have a vocal minority dictating the running of something designed for the lowest common denominator...

Discuss...

Ahhh.... but CJ, you're assuming that organisers will pander to the whims of our vocal minority! :whistle:

As I said earlier on the thread, we're already doing it on the Leroc in Bristol site. Mostly the reviews are from regular dancers & posters, sometimes the organiser of a class will post. All organisers read the reviews. :wink:

We review classes & freestyle events when we feel like it. There are no rules on how to review a class, but people tend to be quite objective, and say why they liked, or disliked something. Normally, there would've been at least one other forumite there, so the advantage of posting openly is that the original opinion can be agreed or disagreed with. That way, the organiser can see more of a balanced objective opinion & then decide if they want to make changes.... :rolleyes:

I think it's a good idea - but it needs to be run by someone independent. John, by his own admission, finds it hard to be impartial if someone criticises Elmgrove.

[TheTramp]

I think that this would only work if everyone doing 'reviews' was as objective as possible. And I'm not sure that's possible!!

Also, I think that it's a bit like the comments I've made before about music. You might well go to a venue where they are playing a lot of 'club' music, and find a couple of girls there that like that music, and who you dance with a lot of the night, and then mark it as being great.

I'd read your review, where you say that the music is great, and the dancers are advanced and fantastic. And next week, I decide to make the trip. Unfortunately, those girls aren't there that night, and I don't like a lot of club music. So I don't have a good night. Which wouldn't even be anyone's fault in the reviewing. Just the way it works out...

I know that recently, I've been to a couple of dances, with different people. At one, I had a great time, and then in the car on the way back, there was a long discussion about why I had a great time, while one of the other people in the car really didn't. Another time, I didn't really enjoy myself, while the person I was talking to about the night afterwards on the phone really did.

Hence, difficult to do. Or am I just being too negative??

Trampy

[Lou]

Hence, difficult to do. Or am I just being too negative??

Yup. :grin:

What's to stop you putting in your review that you had a great time because the majority of the music was club-type? That would be more descriptive and useful than just saying that the music was great. In a review I've said that there was too much R&R type music for my taste before...

As you get more & more reviews added you'll get more opinions on which to base your decisions on where to go out. Not everyone is going to agree - but is that a bad thing? Everyone's different & people enjoy different things. Simon liked the floor at Bath on Friday night. I found it hard to adjust to, as it was different speeds in different places. Both viewpoints are valid & potentially useful to people attending in the future. If it hadn't been for ElaineB previously advising that the floor was fast, I wouldn't have known which shoes to take, etc.... :whistle:

[TheTramp]

Yup. :grin:
Sorry!!

Was just thinking though that requires people to probably do more 'work' than they'd possibly like. Thinking about what exactly the type of music played was (for example). And being objective.

However, I didn't say that it shouldn't be done. And indeed, already is done to a large extent, but without necessarily the objectivity or full information that's possibly required for it to really work.

So, thinking about it.... Maybe Mr. Scathe could do another of his lovely forms (see the forum awards one for a previous example), where, if you wanted to leave feedback, you could fill in one of those. With lots of categories for 'type of music', 'number of dancers', 'average (perceived) level of dancer', etc. Which you could fill out, and then get's automatically added to a thread on feedback. Which is otherwise locked, so that no off thread topics can go into there.

See. I can be positive sometimes. Though, I have no idea if such a form would be possible. Or at least, the automatic addition to a thread. It could be sent to Franck, who could cut and paste it in. But that's just more work for him...

Trampy

[Lou]

Sorry!!

Was just thinking though that requires people to probably do more 'work' than they'd possibly like. Thinking about what exactly the type of music played was (for example). And being objective.

:hug:

We did think about templates & stuff - but what actually worked was just letting people put in what they wanted. I think forms & templates, whilst trying to ensure consistancy of the type of feedback you get, would probably alienate people & put them off posting.

This way, you get people posting when & what they want. And there's nothing to stop someone asking for more info or for expansion on why they liked or didn't like the music, or the venue or whatever! That way, it's more self-regulating. Kinda like this forum. :cheers:

[Graham W]

Good idea - but

leroc in bristol site is a voluntary site run by one indiv. who claims neutrality in a sea of independent classes so what does he have to lose? free from any franchises, etc - this is a CeRoc site - it could have something to lose!!

I think the current set up of indivs starting threads on partic classes, venues is generous enough of CeRoc.

Also some places could end up having a good/bad rep. based on the comments of a few forumites which might unduely influence others...
(including the 'Luvey brigade' as described above?), rather then on the rank and file who ultimately keep these places running in the first place

G

[David Bailey]

Resurrecting this thread, blame Gadget for HarperLinking me, and apologies for starting exactly the same thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5387) in a different place...


Good idea - but

leroc in bristol site is a voluntary site run by one indiv. who claims neutrality in a sea of independent classes so what does he have to lose?
Well, I'm going to make a crazy guess, without knowing Lou, that he has money to lose, the "Commercial Operator" tag possibly being a bit of a giveaway. And as an individual, he may have more to lose than an organisation would have, in percentage terms. Individuals are more creative than organisations.


I think the current set up of indivs starting threads on partic classes, venues is generous enough of CeRoc.
Heh, yep, I think Philsmove's comment is most appropriate here:

(yes I know they only do for their love of dance :hug: )
Obviously, the forum stimulates interest in dancing, and hence acts to increase revenue from people attending dance venues. Especially for threads starting "Who's going to 'Venue X' this Saturday" - if I were an organiser, I'd drop down to my knees and pray for someone to start this kind of thread about my venue, it's great publicity.

Oh yes, and reviews happen in those type of threads anyway - people say what they thought of a venue. I'm just suggesting making it more prominent for ease-of-finding.

I think Lou's point and Philmoves reply (it works, and it works now) answers all the other, more academic critiques about "This is why it couldn't work".

As I've said (a few times now...), bad feedback is at least as valuable as good feedback - it's free customer research, you normally have to pay people shedloads of cash to conduct this sort of study.

So:
- Why should Ceroc / others do it? Because it's good for their business.
- Why should we (the punters) do it? Because it gives us more information, it lets us have a good old whinge (OK, maybe that's just me), and it should help to improve the quality of venues.

And the downside is...?

[bigdjiver]

I have been to venues where it was poor one week, and a really good night the next, with the same crew. The spotted the problems, and fixed them. I have been to other venues where the normal standard is high, but occasionally they get stand-in teacher and DJ, and the standard drops. I have been to venues where I have not liked the DJ, but my partners worshipped him. There are many venues that I do not like because they are too crowded, i.e. popular. I liked going to one venue because there few people and lots of space.

I think that reviews can be misleading, very unjust and harmful. There is a case for either "I had a good time, and will go again." or - silence -.

[Gadget]

And the downside is...?
See my post above (No. 11)

[David Bailey]

See my post above (No. 11)
OK, I'll bite :)


- Any negative response or feedback about a venue/event should be made to the organiser so that they can do something to put it right. If this feedback influences people and prevents them from turning up in future, then you have taken away their chance to improve.
On the other hand, public and transparent feedback makes it more difficult for them to ignore, and may add pressure on them to fix any problems, or at least respond to criticism.


- Every night is different.and
- Opinion can only really be put down as "well, I liked it." personal tastes and opinions vary so much that you can't expect everyone to like the same things that you do.
These are good points (darn it :mad: )
But you could say that about any value judgement made by anyone about any day / week / weekender. I'm not trying to get authoritative reviews, giving definitive and final opinions, never to be challenged - just a bit more clarity about what people thought.

For example, it sounds like the recent Camber weekender was great, but it also sounds like there were lessons to be learned (strimmer man, tango class). Again, these "reviews" are on the forum already - I just want them to be a bit clearer and more easily-accessible.

Anyone who thinks that a negative review wouldn't be fiercely "debated" has probably not spent enough time in Usenet...


Most people here are 'passionate' about MJ, as such would be more likley to only post glowing reviews rather than negative onesAs indeed they do already. So, what's the problem with negative reviews then, if there won't be any? :innocent:


By posting positive reviews, people may be attempting to get more/better dancers at their local/regular venue for themselves to dance with rather than an honest opinion.Could be, I'd believe anything about these Evil Conspiratorial Ceroc Gods - but again, this happens already, I think most people can spot blatant advertising-diguised-as-discussion a mile off.


I just can't get past the fact that every night is different and you can't judge a venue without experianceing it for a long time - then it becomes irrelevant if a main factor changes like the DJ, teacher, "inspirational" dancers...I agree that you can get more consistency if you've been a lot of times, but I also think you get value from a completely fresh viewpoint; first impressions are usually the most important ones.

Again, my main point is that people already post reviews, some of which have "lessons to learn" points - I just want them in one area rather than buried in, for example, the middle of the "Who's going to Camber" thread, because I can then search through them. These are valuable resources, and I'd like to be able to more easily access this information.

Obviously, as a grown-up (sometimes), I'll then make my own mind up, considering all factors, review comments by people being one of those factors. As I do now - I just want the job of finding review comments to be easier.

[clevedonboy]

Well, I'm going to make a crazy guess, without knowing Lou , that he has money to lose, the "Commercial Operator" tag possibly being a bit of a giveaway. And as an individual, he may have more to lose than an organisation would have, in percentage terms. Individuals are more creative than organisations.


You obviously don't know Lou :whistle:

I do and her comments are impartial

It is a difficult topic in many ways as we can only really talk about our experience on a given night - a prime example would be last night at one of my favoured venues in Bristol. I had a "not very good time" but normallly I have a "very good time" so if i review the venue twice which would you go by?

[philsmove]

It s is not simply- I had a good time, I had a bad time

An example of how a forum can improve a class or dance

Several dances at a local and popular class, posted suggestions, that the class could be improved, if the timing of the classes and free style session was changed

While the beginners’ class was very popular, the numbers attending the intermediates varied

The organiser posted his ideas and this led to more suggestion

The organiser took note and changed the class times

Both beginners and intermediates are now full


At another venue, the organiser had a habit of playing the same compilation of tracks month after month

Following a few “comments” on the local forum, the organiser introduced guest DJs


I think every one is happy :cheers:

[David Bailey]

You obviously don't know Lou :whistle:
What gave that away? :blush:

I went by the comment of "him", and the tag of "commercial operator". Still, I'd never let the facts get in the way of my ranting...


It is a difficult topic in many ways as we can only really talk about our experience on a given night - a prime example would be last night at one of my favoured venues in Bristol. I had a "not very good time" but normallly I have a "very good time" so if i review the venue twice which would you go by?
Well, I'd say exactly what you said - let people make their own minds up.

As I said, it's not a "marks out of 10" situation, or even a grading situation - just give some details of what you thought of the place, the crowd, the dancers, the floor, the venue, the parking - you name it.

And yet again, I'd reiterate, it's exactly the same information as people do already on the forums - it just gets buried, and I'd like to see it in a "Review" tag so I know what I'm reading...

[philsmove]

Several dances at a local and popular class, posted suggestions, ..........



this should read seveal dancers....... :blush:

[Lou]

I went by the comment of "him", and the tag of "commercial operator". Still, I'd never let the facts get in the way of my ranting...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'm not exactly a standard "Commercial Operator", either... :wink:

I took over a class from GrahamW for a few months. :wink: I'm a freelance substitute LeRoc teacher available & happy to stand-in for anyone who asks me. I'm a part-time web designer (I did Sherif's LeRoc2000 site) & at some point I plan to organise the odd tea dance. (I actually hate the "Commercial Operator" tag for the reasons apparent in your post - but Bradders suggested it because we non-Ceroc people may have evil intentions and are obviously biased & money oriented.... ;) )

Oh. And I'm definitely female. You can tell by my red high heels I was wearing at St Bon's yesterday. (Sheena - the Rumpf Flamencos have come out of storage again.... :wink: )

Honestly. I am female. :D

Really. :D

I have witnesses. :D

[Bangers & Mash]

Paid my first visit to Stockport last night and had an absolutely brilliant time.
- The music was great,
- the dance floor was large and busy with people dancing all the time,
- the cabaret (lydia et al?) was absolutely superb as was the class they taught
(perhaps a little too much hip swinging for my poor body to cope with :blush:)
- and everybody was really friendly.


I'll be back there again!
:clap:

[David Bailey]

we non-Ceroc people may have evil intentions and are obviously biased & money oriented.... ;)

Obviously, whereas Ceroc People Just Do it For Love.
Actually, that's a good T-shirt slogan...


Oh. And I'm definitely female. You can tell by my red high heels I was wearing at St Bon's yesterday. (Sheena - the Rumpf Flamencos have come out of storage again.... :wink: )
Well, apparently (CF Clive Long) that's not always definitive, but I'll certainly take your word for it. In case you were wondering, I am male, or so I'm told.

[Gus]

Paid my first visit to Stockport last night and had an absolutely brilliant time.
- The music was great,
- the dance floor was large and busy with people dancing all the time,
- the cabaret (lydia et al?) was absolutely superb as was the class they taught
(perhaps a little too much hip swinging for my poor body to cope with :blush:)
- and everybody was really friendly.


I'll be back there again!
:clap:

Thats really strange. Had a late night text from two of my female mates who went. They said the music was dire, the dancers were even worse and swore NEVER to return!

[Bangers & Mash]

Thats really strange. Had a late night text from two of my female mates who went. They said the music was dire, the dancers were even worse and swore NEVER to return!

Oops! wonder if they danced with me? :blush:

[Minnie M]

Thats really strange. Had a late night text from two of my female mates who went. They said the music was dire, the dancers were even worse and swore NEVER to return!
From what I remember, the music in the main hall did have its hiccups and the standard of dancing there was also very mixed - however the 'blues & swing' room/area was packed with amazing dancers and fantastic music :worthy:

[stewart38]

Im sitting on the fence on this one :sick:

I can see good and bad sides to both and i cant make my mind up !!

[Dance Demon]

From what I remember, the music in the main hall did have its hiccups and the standard of dancing there was also very mixed - however the 'blues & swing' room/area was packed with amazing dancers and fantastic music :worthy:

Erm that was SOUTH port Minnie...not Stockport..... :flower:

[Bangers & Mash]

Erm that was SOUTH port Minnie...not Stockport..... :flower:

I'm so glad you cleared that up DD - I was beginning to think I had missed a whole dance floor at Stockport!

:what:

[Minnie M]

Erm that was SOUTH port Minnie...not Stockport..... :flower:

wooops :blush: senior moment

BTW I made a South Park character of my son Jack and emailed it him, with the subject "Southport Jack" - he was very confused :innocent:

[Gadget]

OK, I'll bite :) munch munch munch :D


On the other hand, public and transparent feedback makes it more difficult for them to ignore, and may add pressure on them to fix any problems, or at least respond to criticism.But who gives this criticism? Only a minority who are unhappy with X,Y or Z. This minority is now dictating the direction that the venue/event takes. What happens if a criticism is listened to, then dissregarded as a one-off? Nothing changes, the venue is now branded as not being flexable or open to suggestion.

The main problem I see with "open" feedback is that only those who can be arsed to give feedback will - and only those who feel cheated/ hard done by/ criticised/ insulted/ let down...can get worked up enough to respond. :(

The other direction it may head towards would be a love-in where any negative feedback is washed over by fawning and pawing at the hems of the venue/event - any criticism is shot down by adoring fans as nonsense.


I'm not trying to get authoritative reviews, giving definitive and final opinions, never to be challenged - just a bit more clarity about what people thoughtThe other point about everyone's views being different is their background and the comparisons they can draw against: People who get taught by (eg*) Amar every week as their local teacher will expect every other teacher to be imilar to that. People who are used to having great floors to dance on will expect that. If they have a poor DJ, they will think that an average one is amazing...
... every view point is subjective and without knowing the 'baseline' the view is taken from, it's never going to be a 'definitive' opinion.


{* a name pulled from the forum - I couldn't say if he was better or worse than the local dance teacher who teaces my 3year old daughter.}

these "reviews" are on the forum already - I just want them to be a bit clearer and more easily-accessible.Most threads like this are in the "social events" area. And the 'search' utility isn't that bad.


These {reviews} are valuable resources, and I'd like to be able to more easily access this information.What is valuable about these histories? What information could be(/is) within them that could influence you?
Isn't the fact that they are burried within other threads give them more of a context?

[Gus]

What is valuable about these histories? What information could be(/is) within them that could influence you?
Isn't the fact that they are burried within other threads give them more of a context?Gadget ... so you are saying that unless ALL reports are made on objective, scientific grounds with irrefutable evidence and backed by the confirmation of experts then all reports on teachers, clubs etc are worthless? COME ON!!! Get over this anal stuff. Like any other review or guide, you should look forward for peoples comments, adjust them as far as you can for their known bias and come to your own conclusion. To rubbish comments just because they aren't totally 'normalised' is really worrying.

ALL reviews, even the ones you might not agree with, are valuable input and should be praised not criticised!

[David Bailey]

But who gives this criticism? Only a minority who are unhappy with X,Y or Z.Criticism is always done by a minority - think of the pitiful level of complaints the BBC gets even for controversial programmes. Doesn't mean it's irrelevant. Most people are so reluctant to criticise in this country, even a few complaints are usually a signifier of a generally low level of satisfaction.


This minority is now dictating the direction that the venue/event takes. Hardly, anymore than a few complaints about a TV programme dictate the direction of programming. But complaints are listened to, and do usually force a response or defense, even if it's a "we're right, because..."


What happens if a criticism is listened to, then dissregarded as a one-off? Nothing changes, the venue is now branded as not being flexable or open to suggestion. Not if a complaint is properly responded to. I think people are adult enough to realize that a venue organiser is responsible for, well, organising the venue, and should make decisions based on his/her vision; but if a complaint is ignored, yes, that's pretty much a definition of poor customer service in my opinion.


The main problem I see with "open" feedback is that only those who can be arsed to give feedback will - and only those who feel cheated/ hard done by/ criticised/ insulted/ let down...can get worked up enough to respond. Totally - but that's the same with all complaints, everywhere. Active complaints are usually the tip of the iceberg. Are you saying you don't want a complaint culture?


The other direction it may head towards would be a love-in where any negative feedback is washed over by fawning and pawing at the hems of the venue/event - any criticism is shot down by adoring fans as nonsense.Yeah, and there's a lot of that already... Hmmm, dunno what to do about that, apart from try it and see.


People who get taught by (eg*) Amar every week as their local teacher will expect every other teacher to be imilar to that. People who are used to having great floors to dance on will expect that. If they have a poor DJ, they will think that an average one is amazing...I've got no problems with people aiming for a lesson from Amir, a great dance floor and a superior set of music - raising expectations is a Good Thing. I'd also imagine most venue organisers would aspire to that level...


a name pulled from the forum - I couldn't say if he was better or worse than the local dance teacher who teaces my 3year old daughter.
Well, without knowing your local 3-year-old dance teacher, who knows? :)
But Amir's pretty good...


Isn't the fact that they are burried within other threads give them more of a context?
As would these new-fangled hyperlink things, apparently.

Looking at the excellent LeRoc in Bristol (http://www.leroc-in-bristol.co.uk/forum/index.php) site, reviews seem to work very well there - what are the problems with this already-working example?

[MartinHarper]

The Bristol site has the advantage of limiting its reviews to a specific number of local venues, which I think makes sense. If this forum had an official "review" section, should it limit itself to reviewing Scottish venues? Should it limit to only reviewing venues where the relevant organisers are OK with being publically reviewed?

[Lou]

The Bristol site has the advantage of limiting its reviews to a specific number of local venues, which I think makes sense.
Actually, there's a section for reviews of classes & dances outside Bristol, too.
The last topics cover Newbury, Swindon, Taunton, Gloucester, Cardiff, and even Worcester. :wink:


If this forum had an official "review" section, should it limit itself to reviewing Scottish venues?
I'd like to read reviews of classes anywhere. If a forumite has been to it, I'd be interested in his/her/its opinion.


Should it limit to only reviewing venues where the relevant organisers are OK with being publically reviewed?
If it's a public event, it's fair game in my opinion. And, after all, that's all the review would be - just opinion! :D

[David Bailey]

The Bristol site has the advantage of limiting its reviews to a specific number of local venues, which I think makes sense. If this forum had an official "review" section, should it limit itself to reviewing Scottish venues?
Scotland? :confused: Oh yes, I keep on forgetting :whistle:

But no, discussions are already on venues everywhere - reviews should be the same.


Should it limit to only reviewing venues where the relevant organisers are OK with being publically reviewed?
Well, that sounds like way too much Official Organisation for me, so I'd say no. Although maybe an official Right To Reply would be in order; again, just to make it easier to differentiate between, say, Mr Passionate-defense-Punter replying...

[Gadget]

Gadget ... so you are saying that unless ALL reports are made on objective, scientific grounds with irrefutable evidence and backed by the confirmation of experts then all reports on teachers, clubs etc are worthless?am I? I thought I was saying that every report should be taken in context with who wrote it and any other feedback for that event.

What I meant by "History" was that the review was of a past event - gone and missed. Future events are not going to be identical to this, especially if feedback has been taken on-board.

Assuming time, distance and money were not of any concern, I would rather base my decision to attend a venue on who will be going rather than who has been to past venues.


COME ON!!! Get over this anal stuff.Well someone's got to wear the DA hat :whistle:


ALL reviews, even the ones you might not agree with, are valuable input and should be praised not criticised!Indeed. When they are directed to the correct people. Just posting a review on an open forum where the organisers might happen across it is not very constructive. Threads may well devolve into "grab your torch and pitchfork".


Few complaints doesn't mean criticism is irrelevant.And equally it doesn't mean that they are views held by the majority and should be upheld.

Hardly, anymore than a few complaints about a TV programme dictate the direction of programming.Isn't it more offering choice and analysing what people choose to determine what they might like again? Normally the sign of things going well, or not going well at a venue is the fluctuation in numbers - and if its going down, by that point it's normally too late.

Not if a complaint is properly responded to.~ if a complaint is ignored, yes, that's pretty much a definition of poor customer service in my opinion. How can complaintives know if they are being listened to and dismissed, or being ignored? If they complain and see nothing is being done - isn't that the same as being ignored?


Active complaints are usually the tip of the iceberg. Are you saying you don't want a complaint culture?Yes, and no {:rolleyes:}I would like to see both the positive and negative: eg "Crowded dance floor, but great atmosphere." Where another person may say "Got elbowed in the back, trod on and had to avoid some idiots encroaching on my space. No-one else seemed to mind."


Yeah, and there's a lot of that {sycophants} already... Hmmm, dunno what to do about that, apart from try it and see.It's the flip side of the "complaints culture" - defensive against attacking comments. If the 'attacks' were more constructive than "***** music" it may help. :whistle:


raising expectations is a Good Thing. I'd also imagine most venue organisers would aspire to that level...That's just it - every other venue is seen by this person as "poor" in comparison, even though they may actually be quite good.


Looking at the excellent LeRoc in Bristol site, reviews seem to work very well there - what are the problems with this already-working example?
Nothing, but if I were an organiser, I would rather have a chance to respond to criticism directly. I would like to be able to respond and question directly in order to pin-point any 'grey' areas. I would like suggestions on how the complaintive would like to see things resolved to get a better understanding of the problem.

Basically I think that the "review" idea is OK for a review of past events; it's static.
You need two-way communication for any feedback to be actioned, and the best way to do that is to approach the organisers directly.

[David Bailey]

It's the flip side of the "complaints culture" - defensive against attacking comments. If the 'attacks' were more constructive than "***** music" it may help. :whistle:
I'd agree with that - you can't (shouldn't) just post general, casual comments. Even if the music was ***** :)


Nothing, but if I were an organiser, I would rather have a chance to respond to criticism directly. I would like to be able to respond and question directly in order to pin-point any 'grey' areas. I would like suggestions on how the complaintive would like to see things resolved to get a better understanding of the problem.Also agree ( :eek: )

Thinking about it, a Right To Reply would hopefully encourage response - which I believe to be a good thing.


You need two-way communication for any feedback to be actioned, Yes... but

and the best way to do that is to approach the organisers directly.No (whew!). I believe the the best way to do that is for the organisers to encourage a culture of easy constructive criticism, quick and civil responses to such criticism, and positive movement on areas generally perceived to be weak (e.g. quality of dancefloor).

As, I believe, is done in Bristol.

[Ghost]

As long as it's done well, I think it's OK. "Well" = "balanced, non-abusive, verifiable, credible, informative and constructive".

For example:

"I went to XXX venue last night, for XXX's class. Class was fun, but the "moving around" system was a bit of a mess, all musical-chairs it seemed. I liked the teacher's sense of humour, more original than normal CerocClone, but I wish he'd talked a bit more about XXX, because one of the moves was really awkward if you didn't know that."
- something along those lines is critical, but constuctive.

Similar threads here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6574)

and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5386)

Be Well,
Christopher

[Minnie M]

I believe this thread is for 'venue' reporting rather than venue+freestyle report - can't find the appropriate thread for the later (I think Gus started it) but have to report on last night's dance.

I arranged a union of the Brighton Belles (original female dancers from Graham LeClerc days) shame TiggTours wasn't there !

We went to Shoreham Community Centre (Andy McGregor's event) - normal class night - but boy was it buzzing .... Nigel :respect: was doing a class.
Great floor, good music, top teaching and lots of happy friendly faces AND the gender balance was good :really: (even with us extra girlies)

It was packed (but not uncomfortably) and both Andy and Nigel never left the floor, between them they must have danced with all the ladies :respect:

Although Shoreham is outside of Brighton, it only takes 15 minutes to get to from central Brighton (only 10 mins for me as I live in Hove actually)