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Gus
11th-September-2004, 02:19 PM
Just watched an episode of Star Trek (look .. I was brain dead and I did it by accident .. OK!) ... during this mindless drivel there was an incident where Worf followed a Klingon law to take vengeance, in direct violation of Starfleet directives. Captain Picard had a stern word with him ... the essence of which was that Starfleet obligations came first and if his Klingon beliefs were in contradiction then he must resign.

This made me think ... the UK now has a sizable population who, though holding British passports, have belief systems possibly in conflict with British culture and law and also may have allegiances to states other than the UK. This isn’t just the cricket test. I'm of 'mixed blood' myself and my mum will always root for the West Indies when it comes to cricket ... but she has followed the axiom "When in Rome be a Roman Candle". I'm confused as to how you can hold a British passport yet openly have allegiance to a foreign power or belief that a religion holds sway over the British law of the land. There have been instances over the last 20 years where citizens from the Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Rastafarian etc faiths have tried to enforce their secular laws over UK law.

Maybe I'm biased (bigoted ?) because my Mum did fully integrate. I find it hard to understand as to how you can own a British citizenship if you can't even speak the language. Are these views to the right? Or has political correctness made such views inappropriate?

Andy McGregor
11th-September-2004, 03:14 PM
I find it hard to understand as to how you can own a British citizenship if you can't even speak the language.

You could be Welsh.

IMHO you keep the law of the country you live in. When you visit France you don't take your English law with you - why should that be any different for secular laws?

Of course, there should be a law against showing an episode of Star Trek more than 200 times :wink:

Minnie M
11th-September-2004, 03:53 PM
I believe the Aussies have a good way of dealing with citizenships - can't remember exactly what it is, but remember thinking "Why don't we adopt this idea here"

jivecat
11th-September-2004, 04:05 PM
You could be Welsh.



I don't think there are any Welsh people left who can not also speak English. Though there's a few that will avoid doing so if at all possible.

Andy McGregor
11th-September-2004, 04:15 PM
I don't think there are any Welsh people left who can not also speak English. Though there's a few that will avoid doing so if at all possible.

And there are some that will pretend they can't speak any English - especially if they think you're English. In this situation I've always apologised for not speaking Welsh and told them it's because I'm Scottish - suddenly they were nice and friendly :hug:

Chicklet
11th-September-2004, 04:18 PM
Doesn't really answer the question but many might say we've only got ourelves to balme, the imposition of "empire" having a lot to answer for.

I didn't grow up in the UK but in a country where we could have integrated and have anything proivided for the nationals for free but anything else, our schooling in English for example, as long as we paid for it, so having been brought up with this philosophy, believe that the UK should have it's core offerings widely publicised. Anyone coming here should know what's on offer within the " system" andacccept it or be free to provide for their special needs and wants and ENJOY QUIET POSSESSION of same at their own expense.

Ifully recognise that this is probably uite an old fashioned idea and suggests that countries shouldn't be trying to evolve away from a national identity to a global (homogeneous) identity but I believe that countries should be trying to hold on to theit=r own identity. Vive le differences.
I've been lucky enough to travel quite widely and it's the differences in ifesytle, traditions and feel that makes me want to do this. I like that I can go to Rome and see shat Roman candles are like. i don't want travel and find that all the candles camefrom Ikea

drathzel
11th-September-2004, 05:12 PM
I find it hard to understand as to how you can own a British citizenship if you can't even speak the language. ?


I agree to this..i just feel that it is wrong to want to be a citizen and yet want to change our culture....ie what yuo just said about speaking their own language insted of learning ours....mmm does that sound bad... i mean it in the least insulting way possible! :sick:

Lynn
11th-September-2004, 05:51 PM
This made me think ... the UK now has a sizable population who, though holding British passports, have belief systems possibly in conflict with British culture and law and also may have allegiances to states other than the UK. Interesting discussion in the context of NI... Esp the passport reference as what passport you have probably says something about where your allegiances lie! (Of course some people have British and Irish passports!)

Baruch
11th-September-2004, 11:53 PM
And there are some that will pretend they can't speak any English - especially if they think you're English. In this situation I've always apologised for not speaking Welsh and told them it's because I'm Scottish - suddenly they were nice and friendly :hug:
You know, 9 times out of 10 that this subject comes up, it's because people were just speaking naturally in Welsh to each other and a non-Welsh speaker just got paranoid about it. There may be the odd few people who speak Welsh to exclude others, but I've never come across them myself. Mostly it's just people speaking their own language in their own country.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now :nice:

Baruch
11th-September-2004, 11:55 PM
I don't think there are any Welsh people left who can not also speak English. Though there's a few that will avoid doing so if at all possible.
There are, of course, children who haven't yet learned English. And there are Welsh speakers who, although they speak English, don't feel all that confident speaking it.

Andy McGregor
12th-September-2004, 12:39 AM
You know, 9 times out of 10 that this subject comes up, it's because people were just speaking naturally in Welsh to each other and a non-Welsh speaker just got paranoid about it. There may be the odd few people who speak Welsh to exclude others, but I've never come across them myself. Mostly it's just people speaking their own language in their own country.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now :nice:

Ahh, but you're from the South. I've always found them to be non-militant Welsh compared the people from North Wales, especially those from Anglesey :tears:

And it's not just the English, the Welsh I know from the North don't even like the people from South Wales that much - something to do with Rugby and not selecting players from the North ...

under par
12th-September-2004, 07:44 AM
You could be Welsh.

IMHO you keep the law of the country you live in. When you visit France you don't take your English law with you - why should that be any different for secular laws?

Of course, there should be a law against showing an episode of Star Trek more than 200 times :wink:

Preferable would be a law against watching it altogether in the UK......keep this US rubbish in the States. :mad: :devil: :angry:

jivecat
12th-September-2004, 10:56 AM
I like that I can go to Rome and see shat Roman candles are like. i don't want travel and find that all the candles camefrom Ikea


:yeah: Wish I'd said that!

jivecat
12th-September-2004, 11:16 AM
I have encountered people who will, presumably on a point of principle, answer remarks made to them in English, using Welsh. The principle being, when in Wales, speak Welsh.



Ahh, but you're from the South. I've always found them to be non-militant Welsh compared the people from North Wales, especially those from Anglesey :tears:

The attitude is still very insular in North Wales. Maybe it's due to it's mountainous isolation in historical times, although that has undoubtedly helped to preserve the language there.


And it's not just the English, the Welsh I know from the North don't even like the people from South Wales that much - something to do with Rugby and not selecting players from the North ...

Seems to be true. People have said to me (admittedly, a drunk in a pub in Llanberis) that N Welsh people don't even consider the South to be a proper part of Wales. I was furious, but given the fact that he'd just been telling me about his various jail sentences I thought I wouldn't contradict him!

I think people are excessively paranoid about thinking that people are talking about them in Welsh. Though this has happened to me and was clearly hostile in intent- in yet another pub in N Wales! I might be biassed, but it is routine to encounter chilly or unfriendly attitudes in N Wales to perceived outsiders. The South is far more open in it's attitude.

philsmove
12th-September-2004, 11:43 AM
Seems to be true. People have said to me (admittedly, a drunk in a pub in Llanberis) that N Welsh people don't even consider the South to be a proper part of Wales. I was furious, but given the fact that he'd just been telling me about his various jail sentences I thought I wouldn't contradict him!

Next time you are in the area visit Caemarfon Castle there is an excellent AV (in English and Welsh) on the History of Wales it will explain their attidude

Andy McGregor
12th-September-2004, 12:01 PM
I might be biassed, but it is routine to encounter chilly or unfriendly attitudes in N Wales to perceived outsiders. The South is far more open in it's attitude.

I think this attitude is reserved for the English. I lived and worked in North Wales in the early 80s and found the natives friendly, once I'd established that I was Scottish :innocent:

As philsmove says, the in centuries gone by the English treated the Welsh even more shabbily than they treated the Scots. And, just like the Scots, I've found the Welsh, from North and South to be a friendly bunch - but they also have a natural suspicion of the motives of anyone speaking with an English accent - especially if there's a flock of their sheep nearby :devil:

jivecat
12th-September-2004, 12:32 PM
And, just like the Scots, I've found the Welsh, from North and South to be a friendly bunch - but they also have a natural suspicion of the motives of anyone speaking with an English accent - especially if there's a flock of their sheep nearby :devil:

But I don't think you'd find this suspicion to anything like the same degree in S. Wales.

Though I don't think the Welsh discriminate for or against anyone on the grounds of their nationality. Where I come from anyone who hails from anywhere east of Carmarthen is dismissed by the terse phrase "people from away".

By the way do the North and South Scots (Hope to God I've got this term right) hate each other as well? This is the stuff that civil wars are made of.

drathzel
12th-September-2004, 12:55 PM
Ahh, but you're from the South. I've always found them to be non-militant Welsh compared the people from North Wales, especially those from Anglesey :tears:

And it's not just the English, the Welsh I know from the North don't even like the people from South Wales that much - something to do with Rugby and not selecting players from the North ...

And scottish people dont like the english......although they actually dot know how to speak english as there dialect can often sound like a comletely different language!!!

From an N.irish/german in scotland!!!

Tiggerbabe
12th-September-2004, 01:22 PM
And scottish people dont like the english......although they actually dot know how to speak english as there dialect can often sound like a comletely different language!!!

ehrm...........pardon?

Dance Demon
12th-September-2004, 01:53 PM
By the way do the North and South Scots (Hope to God I've got this term right) hate each other as well? This is the stuff that civil wars are made of.
There is a certain Rivalry between people from Glasgow and Edinburgh......Edinburgh people call Glaswegians "Weegies"......Glasgow people think that Edinburgh people are tight fisted and stand offish... Weegies claim that if you turn up at someones house in Glasgow they will say " come in and have your tea" whereas if you turn up at someones home in Edinburgh, they will say " come in......erm You'll have had your tea..? ".........but theres absolutely no truth in this.. :innocent: :wink: ...
However, when we are all together outside Scotland...we are all simply Scots...and stick together :waycool:

Dreadful Scathe
12th-September-2004, 01:57 PM
was that a pun drathzel, writing in pigeon English ? :)

Its also worth mentioning that in the Islands on the West Coast the first language is still Gaelic for a lot of children - the parents let them learn English when they go to School. Island life is changing a lot now though with outsiders coming in and forcing up the price of what used to be affordable housing. Its very sad. Where my parents live on the Isle of Skye they even have a trailer park for the poor locals to live in :(.

Gus
12th-September-2004, 04:58 PM
I have encountered people who will, presumably on a point of principle, answer remarks made to them in English, using Welsh. The principle being, when in Wales, speak Welsh.Isnt a legitimate point that Welsh IS an indiginous British language and therefore is as British as English? Have you ever tried understanding a cockney or scouser in full flow?

drathzel
12th-September-2004, 05:07 PM
ehrm...........pardon?


exactly!!!!

drathzel
12th-September-2004, 05:10 PM
was that a pun drathzel, writing in pigeon English ? :)

Its also worth mentioning that in the Islands on the West Coast the first language is still Gaelic for a lot of children - the parents let them learn English when they go to School. Island life is changing a lot now though with outsiders coming in and forcing up the price of what used to be affordable housing. Its very sad. Where my parents live on the Isle of Skye they even have a trailer park for the poor locals to live in :(.


No pun just typing on a crap keyboard and missing out letters!!! My friend is from North Uist and she spoke Gaelic for a long time but now it is more natural for her to speak English (scottish)

Baruch
12th-September-2004, 08:45 PM
Isnt a legitimate point that Welsh IS an indiginous British language and therefore is as British as English? Have you ever tried understanding a cockney or scouser in full flow?
Exactly right! It seems daft to me that there's all this talk about the ability to speak English as a prerequisite for British citizenship, when there are other indigenous languages that have been in the British Isles for longer than English. What about bilingual Patagonians who speak Welsh and Spanish, for example? Surely they should be exempt from the "learning English" rule, especially as Welsh has equal status in law with English (allegedly....)

drathzel
12th-September-2004, 09:32 PM
Exactly right! It seems daft to me that there's all this talk about the ability to speak English as a prerequisite for British citizenship, when there are other indigenous languages that have been in the British Isles for longer than English. What about bilingual Patagonians who speak Welsh and Spanish, for example? Surely they should be exempt from the "learning English" rule, especially as Welsh has equal status in law with English (allegedly....)


however how many english people speak welsh or spanish?? They would not be able to comumicate with them... not that thats the welsh peoples fault as the english (inc scots and irish) are quite ignorant and expect everyone else to speak english... even when they go to foreign countries!!! :rolleyes:

Baruch
12th-September-2004, 11:29 PM
however how many english people speak welsh or spanish?? They would not be able to comumicate with them... not that thats the welsh peoples fault as the english (inc scots and irish) are quite ignorant and expect everyone else to speak english... even when they go to foreign countries!!! :rolleyes:
That misses the point. It's not a matter of whether or not English people can understand them. Most English people don't understand Welsh either, but that doesn't stop us using it in Wales. As Welsh is an official UK language (allegedly) it should be given equal footing with English in all fields of life, including immigration.

drathzel
12th-September-2004, 11:32 PM
That misses the point. It's not a matter of whether or not English people can understand them. Most English people don't understand Welsh either, but that doesn't stop us using it in Wales. As Welsh is an official UK language (allegedly) it should be given equal footing with English in all fields of life, including immigration.


i nkow it does. i was sort of meaning in england, then in foreign countries. I didn't mean to offend! :blush:

Baruch
12th-September-2004, 11:38 PM
i nkow it does. i was sort of meaning in england, then in foreign countries. I didn't mean to offend! :blush:
Don't worry, no offence taken :flower:
My skin's a bit thcker than that. Just making a point, that's all.

drathzel
12th-September-2004, 11:39 PM
Don't worry, no offence taken :flower:
My skin's a bit thcker than that. Just making a point, that's all.


cool. I also understand where you are coming from. :grin:

jivecat
13th-September-2004, 09:13 AM
As Welsh is an official UK language (allegedly) it should be given equal footing with English in all fields of life, including immigration.

:yeah: Many people in Wales have worked hard to ensure that they can conduct their work, leisure, social and community life without having to use a non-native language i.e. English. This has partly come about as a result of uncompromising attitudes such as refusing to answer people in English. While it might be difficult to be on the receiving end of this, broadly speaking, I support their endeavours. I think there's a very strong case for it being made compulsory to learn Welsh in order to participate in e.g. community politics as the relentless flow of incomers erodes traditionally monoglot Welsh-speaking areas. It only takes one non-Welsh speaker at a meeting to force the participants to change the language of business from Welsh to English. Replicated all over the core Welsh-speaking heartlands, mainly in mid and North Wales, this would cause considerable damage.
I've even heard anecdotal evidence of people choosing to send their children to Welsh-language playgroups and then complaining that parent meetings were held in Welsh!

I've also encountered people refusing to speak English as a matter of principle in Donegal- again, the result of a passionate commitment to their political/linguistic aims over and above the niceties of social courtesy!

Gus
13th-September-2004, 09:34 AM
I've also encountered people refusing to speak English as a matter of principle in Donegal- again, the result of a passionate commitment to their political/linguistic aims over and above the niceties of social courtesy!I can think of no more fundamental point of culture than your native tongue. If you regard yourslef as Scottish or Welsh then I can fully appreacite that Celtic/Welsh being your primary language. This brings us back to the thread ( :wink: ) ...can you ever be really British if you dont speak a native British langaue as your primary language?
Does your primary lanauge define your true nation of choice?

Dreadful Scathe
13th-September-2004, 10:41 AM
Does your primary language define your true nation of choice?

I dont think it does. Language is simply one part of it, but I agree with the new rules - you should at least attempt to learn reasonable English to become a new British Citizen. Otherwise you are dependant on others and cannot integrate into society. If you were an immigrant that moved to Wales and learnt Welsh, then you'd still be integrating so that would be fine too :). Integration is the key as, without it, you have division. Division leads to crime, abuse, hatred and all other anti-social behaviours.


As for native languages, well, thats fairly complex. The most recent language, and therefore the least 'native' language is English, being Latin based and coming from Anglo-Saxon Europe. Celtic languages have been around longer.

There is no doubt that English is the dominant language in this techological world. Chinese and Hindi are very much held to specific areas of the world and dont help cultures/countries communicate.

America (the intellectual country where the minorities are big and join together in their stupidity*) has racist groups who, with no sense of irony, say 'If you cant speak the language, get out of the f***** country' - without realising just how diverse America is and that (someone correct me if Im wrong) Spanish is actually the dominant language. Then of course you have the many and varied native languages which bare little resemblance to English or Spanish.


*is that the difference between America and countries and Europe? usually our minorities don't get noticed** when they band together with their stupid ideas. Too many of them in America :)

** with obvious exceptions - Nazis for example

CJ
13th-September-2004, 11:00 AM
cool. I also understand where you are coming from. :grin:

Wales?!? :devil:

Stuart M
13th-September-2004, 11:17 AM
America (the intellectual country where the minorities are big and join together in their stupidity*) has racist groups who, with no sense of irony, say 'If you cant speak the language, get out of the f***** country' - without realising just how diverse America is and that (someone correct me if Im wrong) Spanish is actually the dominant language. Then of course you have the many and varied native languages which bare little resemblance to English or Spanish.
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The US Census (http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-29.pdf) suggests that the figure is only about 10-15%. Of course, if you mean the entire Americas - North, Central and South - Spanish speakers may well outnumber English speakers. With Portuguese in 3rd place.

Undoubtedly English is the dominant language in the US. Whether it eventually becomes the dominant language globally is debatable.

Gadget
13th-September-2004, 11:30 AM
Does your primary lanauge define your true nation of choice?
{I wrote this before reading DS's post...}
This issue of languages, in my mind, breeds xenophobia and distrust between races/cultures.

Language is the tool we use to communicate: We use language to communicate thoughts and ideas. We study past languages to investigate our ancestors thoughts and ideas. We pass on and collaborate our current thoughts and ideas through language. To be understood and to understand these ideas, we need to 'speak' the language. So by isolating your language and refusing to acknowledge/learn/embrace another, are you not blocking out all ideas and thoughts from them? are you not preventing your thoughts and ideas from reaching them? You are erecting a barrier of non-communication that will stagnate the thoughts and ideas within the secular language.

I have no problem with recording and documenting a language for historical reference- most stories, legends and folklore read better in their own tongue with knowledge of the context in which they were conceived. But language should be a global communication to allow not only the spread of knowledge and ideas, but their development.

Should 'natives' adhere to the laws of the country they live in? Yes; most laws are to protect 'society' from 'deviant behaviour' - if your culture/religion goes against this, then move to a country where it is not.

The letter of the law has been laid down by those in power - Kings and Queens to start with, then politicians and lawyers. These people have been influenced by their beliefs in "right" and "wrong". These beliefs came from the religion they subscribe to and the culture they have been brought up in. While "culture" changes and the influence of religion lessens, the laws take a lot longer to change to reflect these changes. (A law against "same sex couples" being able to share the same legal rights as married couples is an excellent example.)

Should 'natives' embrace the culture in which they live in? No; culture and religion are (/should be) a matter of personal ideologies. There is no need to embrace the culture, however you must acknowledge it and respect it's views. There may even be attempts to influence it with your own culture, but any attempt to impose your culture on your native land's is just as conceited and arrogant as anyone imposing their culture on yours.


you should at least attempt to learn reasonable English to become a new British Citizen. Otherwise you are dependant on others and cannot integrate into society.
Na - I would say that if you don't, then you are dependant on other people's interpritation of what is being said rather than understanding what is being said yourself.
I'm not sure that you need to "integrate into society" to be a citizen either :)

Gadget
13th-September-2004, 11:40 AM
The US Census (http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-29.pdf) suggests that the figure is only about 10-15%.
:D I wonder if that survey was published in anything other thatn English? :innocent:

Undoubtedly English is the dominant language in the US. Whether it eventually becomes the dominant language globally is debatable.
I think that it will either be English or one of the oriental languages - there was a time that spanish was in the running, but I think that the internet will dictate the which language becomes the "global" one... perhaps translation tools will ensure that there is not one?

Dreadful Scathe
13th-September-2004, 11:55 AM
you should at least attempt to learn reasonable English to become a new British Citizen. Otherwise you are dependant on others and cannot integrate into society.



Na - I would say that if you don't, then you are dependant on other people's interpritation of what is being said rather than understanding what is being said yourself.

er...thats what I meant by dependant ! :)




I'm not sure that you need to "integrate into society" to be a citizen either :)

Of course you do, if you live here you must integrate unless you are going to get locked up in prison or live as a hermit! Although technically I suppose you are right, there are certainly some non-english speaking woman who stay in the house and don't emerge AT ALL and therefore dont integrate (i.e "become part of society"), but as their husbands/kids do, you could say they integrate by association. :)

Baruch
13th-September-2004, 06:44 PM
Language is the tool we use to communicate: We use language to communicate thoughts and ideas.

I have no problem with recording and documenting a language for historical reference- most stories, legends and folklore read better in their own tongue with knowledge of the context in which they were conceived. But language should be a global communication to allow not only the spread of knowledge and ideas, but their development.
This is where I have to disagree. Language is much more than just a means of communication. It is intrinsically linked to culture, and it also influences the way we think. One's language is part of one's identity. This isn't so obvious when considering a "strong" langauge like English, but it becomes much mroe obvious when your right to use your language is threatened, which has happened to the Welsh for centuries.

drathzel
13th-September-2004, 07:01 PM
This is where I have to disagree. Language is much more than just a means of communication. It is intrinsically linked to culture, and it also influences the way we think. One's language is part of one's identity. This isn't so obvious when considering a "strong" langauge like English, but it becomes much mroe obvious when your right to use your language is threatened, which has happened to the Welsh for centuries.


I agree, although, i live in Scotland and i have started to pick up a few sayings like:-

Naw yae cannae
How?
Haud yer wheest
etc
etc

I still get the micky taken out of me for my N.Irish accent! :tears:

Dance Demon
13th-September-2004, 07:18 PM
without realising just how diverse America is and that (someone correct me if Im wrong) Spanish is actually the dominant language. Then of course you have the many and varied native languages which bare little resemblance to English or Spanish.


There are many areas in large west coast areas e.g. Los Angeles, where the only language spoken is Spanish. Many Hispanic immigrants seek these areas out to live in mainly because they do not have to learn English to get by from day to day. I wonder if many people have learned to speak any of the indiginous American Indian languages. There are hundreds of different ones to chose from.......all of which could claim to be the "true" American language.........

drathzel
13th-September-2004, 07:22 PM
There are many areas in large west coast areas e.g. Los Angeles, where the only language spoken is Spanish. Many Hispanic immigrants seek these areas out to live in mainly because they do not have to learn English to get by from day to day. I wonder if many people have learned to speak any of the indiginous American Indian languages. There are hundreds of different ones to chose from.......all of which could claim to be the "true" American language.........


we should proabably not get on the subject of the true language of an land as can anyone say they sopeak the original language! :rolleyes:

Dreadful Scathe
13th-September-2004, 08:06 PM
I agree, although, i live in Scotland and i have started to pick up a few sayings like:-

Naw yae cannae
How?
Haud yer wheest
etc


drathzel...just..gonnae no !

:)


we should proabably not get on the subject of the true language of an land as can anyone say they speak the original language

The demon said "true"... note the quotes - no one menitoned the original language that would be silly, who would clam THAT with a straight face. Maybe in Americas case, it may well be Welsh - doesn't some tribe speak Welsh ? :)

I speak yoda, you too wish you did, hmm ?

drathzel
13th-September-2004, 08:21 PM
drathzel...just..gonnae no !

:)





How, How? :grin:

Baruch
13th-September-2004, 11:11 PM
I speak yoda, you too wish you did, hmm ?
Dance you must, yeeees!

One thing remains: The Accordion Comb Pull Crab. You must learn the Accordion Comb Pull Crab. Then, and only then, a Jedi will you be.

Dip? Drop. Or drop not. There is no dip.
:worthy:

MartinHarper
13th-September-2004, 11:36 PM
I'm confused as to how you can hold a British passport yet openly {believe} that a religion holds sway over the British law of the land.

Eternal truths take priority over ephemeral laws.
Gods take priority over governments.
Doing the right thing takes priority over doing the legal thing.

Gadget
14th-September-2004, 12:08 AM
This is where I have to disagree. Language is much more than just a means of communication. It is intrinsically linked to culture, and it also influences the way we think. One's language is part of one's identity.
:confused:
How is it linked to culture?

The word "Kilt" is now in the english language - part of the scottish culture that has been assimilated into 'english'. The cultural reference is still envoked by the word because the practice of wearing kilts has not died out. The only link to culture is to past culture - and while a record of this is good to keep for prosperity, what good is it? what use is it? It is the same use and good as an accurate history and social portrayal of people during a specific time frame. Historical. These thoughts and ideas and cultural references have been passed on to the world and translated so that others may share in that knowledge.

How does it influence the way we think?
I'm not takling about using one word over another because it is a better descriptor, but how does the racial language used alter our perception of the subject being discussed? Does the description of a tree paint a better picture in hindu than in latin? Is it the description of more complex ideas that give a different 'colour' to the same image? If so, then it comes back to communication - language is used as a communication tool.


This isn't so obvious when considering a "strong" langauge like English, but it becomes much mroe obvious when your right to use your language is threatened, which has happened to the Welsh for centuries.
Your "right" to use your language? Forgive my history, but were the Welsh dissaplined for using the welsh tounge? When in wales? (<-Genuine curiosity)

Baruch
14th-September-2004, 07:05 AM
:confused:
How is it linked to culture?

How does it influence the way we think?

Your "right" to use your language? Forgive my history, but were the Welsh dissaplined for using the welsh tounge? When in wales? (<-Genuine curiosity)
I think you see language as a mere tool, whereas I see it as much more significant than that. Language influences the way we think because of the patterns and imagery of that particular language.

A language is linked to culture because it is the everyday medium of communication within a culture, the medium of song, poetry etc. (which, of course, doesn't translate particularly well).

And yes, the Welsh were disciplined for using Welsh. At one point Welsh children were beaten in school if they spoke their native tongue, even if they didn't know much English. From 1536 until 1993 the Welsh language had no official status in law, and for centuries attempts were made to eradicate the Welsh language and make good Englishmen of us. But we're still here :clap:

MartinHarper
14th-September-2004, 09:32 AM
Language influences the way we think because of the patterns and imagery of that particular language.

This is the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis).

Gadget
14th-September-2004, 09:49 AM
I think you see language as a mere tool, whereas I see it as much more significant than that. Language influences the way we think because of the patterns and imagery of that particular language.
Not a "mere" tool, but the ultimate tool - one that if we were without, we could not survive, develop or addapt. No history and no future.
I'm not saying that forign/lost/rare/local languages are insignificant - just that they are part of the past - like a lot of customs and local practices. As part of the past it communicates to us and we can learn from it - but I fail to see the point in carrying a redundant language into the future.
Can you give an example of how the imagery of one language cannot be conveyed into English?
Simple words that embody ideas and concepts that take a dozen words to explain - like "sushi" - will be absorbed into the language and so the language is enritched.


And yes, the Welsh were disciplined for using Welsh. In Wales? :what:

From 1536 until 1993 the Welsh language had no official status in law,...
This I don't understand - how can a language have a status that is 'recognised' in law? Wills?

Gus
14th-September-2004, 09:56 AM
This is the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis).Is it just me who finds it spooky that this thread was started re a scene involving a fictional character Worf and then comes to a point where a key point is made by a real world accademic Whorf? If thw whole is now firmly wrapped up by research by a Professor Jean Luc-Picard I'm going to hide in a dark and safe corner :sick:

baldrick
14th-September-2004, 10:03 AM
And yes, the Welsh were disciplined for using Welsh.
In Wales?

I had friends at school in wales who's perents and grand perents had been beaten or made to stand in the corner with dunce's cap if they use welsh words during school.
Probably beaten for bad speeling too.

jivecat
14th-September-2004, 10:16 AM
This brings us back to the thread ( :wink: )


Yeah, sorry, got carried away, as usual.




...can you ever be really British if you dont speak a native British langaue as your primary language?

It's worth bearing in mind that Britain is composed of 4 nations, 3 of whom were historically subjugated and probably wouldn't be part of the UK if it were not for this.



Does your primary lanauge define your true nation of choice?

Well, I'm only very mildly patriotic but it seems to me that love for ones's nation is based on familiarity and upbringing. Assuming that your early life has been a happy and positive experience that is the culture that is imprinted on you and will feel natural, like home. Whereas I wouldn't claim that Wales is the "best" nation (that's obviously Scotland :wink: ) the nearest I can get to patriotism is that feeling of it being special, for me, because it's a part of me.


I don't know what the experience is like for eg Asians who have been born and raised in Britain. Chatting to friends about their experiences of being taken to visit family back in India it seems that it is not always a very easy experience for a child who has been raised in Britain even though their dominant language & culture is Indian. I suspect that although they might not feel 100% British they don't feel 100% Indian either. Anyone out there who could shed light on this?

Getting back on thread (again) I think proficiency with language is somehow key. If someone speaks English with an English accent I assume they are British regardless of race or origin, though they may well not choose to define themselves so simply. But the business of group affiliation is so complicated - I define myself as Welsh (under most circumstances, not all) but I don't speak much Welsh. A Welsh-speaker might not define me as Welsh at all. Geographically, I am now English.

It doesn't matter much if all we're talking about is supporting football teams- but for many people across the globe these issues are of life-or- death importance.

Now, what was the question again? Ah, yes. Well, it looks like I've said no, you can't be properly British if you don't speak a native British language as your primary language. I don't feel very comfortable about that. Flame me, someone!

jivecat
14th-September-2004, 10:22 AM
I'm going to hide in a dark and safe corner :sick:


You mean there is one, these days? :sad:

Gus
14th-September-2004, 10:30 AM
It's worth bearing in mind that Britain is composed of 4 nations, 3 of whom were historically subjugated and probably wouldn't be part of the UK if it were not for this.

There is a very importanat point lurking here. Look,we were all conquered .... GET OVER IT!!"The biggest influence on our language, culture and infrastructure was Rome .... lets get that out of our system and invade Italy and kick the sh*t out of them for introducing us to civilisation. For those that want to revert to the true native 'nations' ... lets reform the McGregor and Copeland clans and so the Scots can descend into civil war again. There is VERY little to be achieved by looking to history that is before living memory and calling for vengance. If you want to tread that path ... look at NI ... where common, 'decent', 'god fearing' peope, go and shoot, maim and blow each other up based on something that happened over 200 years ago!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

OK .... going to drink less coffee, find that dark corner and pray that one day the human race will deserve to survive ... because looking at the world as it stands I dont believe it deserves to ... and dont believe it will :(

Lynn
14th-September-2004, 11:29 AM
Language influences the way we think because of the patterns and imagery of that particular language. Language is a tool for communication – but it is also inextricably linked to culture as there are words within a language that don’t just ‘translate’. Even within English there are different words, a variation on the language relating to different areas, or to different cultures – eg youth culture. Language becomes even more culturally relevant when there is a stronger need to affirm cultural identity – eg Irish (and Welsh?) Another issue is expressing deep truths – this is done in the language the person is brought up with – therefore language and religion are closely bound together.

A diversity of language gives a richness to a country. However, if someone wants to live and work in the UK they should aim to learn English – but while they are doing so they will have support from others from their cultural background.

English is probably the most widely spoken across the world, but numerically I think Mandarin Chinese is the most used (someone correct me if I am wrong please.)

Dreadful Scathe
14th-September-2004, 12:59 PM
There is a very importanat point lurking here. Look,we were all conquered .... GET OVER IT!!"The biggest influence on our language, culture and infrastructure was Rome .... lets get that out of our system and invade Italy and kick the sh*t out of them for introducing us to civilisation. For those that want to revert to the true native 'nations' ... lets reform the McGregor and Copeland clans and so the Scots can descend into civil war again. There is VERY little to be achieved by looking to history that is before living memory and calling for vengance.

Indeed. However looking at history with an open mind can stop us repeating many of the mistakes we made in the past. And there are always ridiculous claims based on history - look at Spain gong on about Gibraltar when it has been part of the United Kingdom longer than Scotland has!

As for the first bit - There was no conquering going on - Wales was integrated. Scotland joined a union. Ireland got pizzed off and left and Northern Ireland wanted to stay*. Sure those countries were all conquered at one point, but they became part of the United Kingdom through more or less peaceable means, so not every change is through force of arms! Theres a lot of history going on :) McGregor and Copeland ? thats a very small piece of Scottish History, what about the picts being bred out of existance, the invasion of England by Wallace, the Jacobites, the Tartan Army!! England too has been conquered, they were all speaking French for a large part of their history ;), way after the Romans got bored with the weather and left :) Scotland may well become completely independant at some point, and there wouldnt be any vengeance involved at all, it would be a political decision.


* the slightly simplified version :)

Gus
14th-September-2004, 01:12 PM
Scotland may well become completely independant at some point, and there wouldnt be any vengeance involved at all, it would be a political decision.But wouldnt we all be better off working to come together than on focusing on a meaningless geographical divide? I heard some appalling loonie (an MP I think :sick: ) on the radio last night proposing devolution for the North East? Where does it stop? I'm ready to throw my hat in to become voted in as Generallisimo for the Free Republic of Altrincham!

Andy McGregor
14th-September-2004, 01:17 PM
... lets reform the McGregor and Copeland clans and so the Scots can descend into civil war again.

You can read about the MacGregor clan here (http://home.globalcrossing.net/~macisme/macgreg.html) .

We do have a scary history. The clan was framed for some nasty massacre and the clan was actually proscribed for 170 years in a small-scale version of racial cleansing. Here's some of what it meant;

Babies not yet born will not take
that MacGregor name under penalty of Death.

No more than four shall meet at a time, under penalty of Death.

They shall bear no weapon, save an unpointed knife for cutting their meat.

To kill a MacGregor is NOT a crime, but to be encouraged.


If they rob us of name
and pursue us with beagles
Give their roofs to the flame
And their flesh to the eagles.
Sir Walter Scott

Somehow, probably due to pig-headedness, our clan survived. Maybe they only caught the tall ones.

Dreadful Scathe
14th-September-2004, 01:22 PM
But wouldnt we all be better off working to come together than on focusing on a meaningless geographical divide? I heard some appalling loonie (an MP I think :sick: ) on the radio last night proposing devolution for the North East? Where does it stop? I'm ready to throw my hat in to become voted in as Generallisimo for the Free Republic of Altrincham!
"working to come together" is not a realistic proposition when you're talking about politicians though is it ? :) I would view independance as just a more local process of administration - the national identity part we already have. I'm also entirely neutral on the subject for that reason - it is unlikely to affect me to a level i'm going to bother about too much :)

CJ
14th-September-2004, 01:45 PM
OK .... going to drink less coffee, find that dark corner and pray that one day the human race will deserve to survive ... because looking at the world as it stands I dont believe it deserves to ... and dont believe it will :(

Well, some theorists believe we are not of this earth, so why should we survive here?!?

Some believe we aere dumped here by a race because of our inherant war making tendencies.

Others say that we are a hybrid of chimps and some other alien, possibly "greys"...

All of which brings me to the point that Scotland has never been conquered. :wink:

Gadget
14th-September-2004, 01:53 PM
So why does Scotland have one of the highest UFO sighting stastistics then? :what:

Dreadful Scathe
14th-September-2004, 02:24 PM
So why does Scotland have one of the highest UFO sighting stastistics then? :what:
because they want to land somewhere where the people are intelectually their equal of coure my theory falls down if anyone mentions most sightings are in Bonnybridge :)

Baruch
14th-September-2004, 04:53 PM
As for the first bit - There was no conquering going on - Wales was integrated. Scotland joined a union. Ireland got pizzed off and left and Northern Ireland wanted to stay*. Sure those countries were all conquered at one point, but they became part of the United Kingdom through more or less peaceable means, so not every change is through force of arms!
Not true in the case of Wales. We were conquered by force of arms, large tracts of our country divided among a bunch of barons from east of the border, then annexed by the English crown after a few hundred years of subjugation. Why do you think there are so many castles in Wales, particularly the east? They were built by English lords to keep the "rebellious" Welsh down because they were wont to fight against the oppression they were under.

Baruch
14th-September-2004, 05:02 PM
I'm not saying that forign/lost/rare/local languages are insignificant - just that they are part of the past - like a lot of customs and local practices. As part of the past it communicates to us and we can learn from it - but I fail to see the point in carrying a redundant language into the future.

The perspective is very different if you happen to be part of one of those minorities. I'm all for global languages, but I'm also in favour of bilingualism. Why should it be a case of either/or?


Can you give an example of how the imagery of one language cannot be conveyed into English?
Simple words that embody ideas and concepts that take a dozen words to explain - like "sushi" - will be absorbed into the language and so the language is enritched.
That only tends to work with "strong" languages. Generally minority languages will borrow words from "strong" neighbouring languages, but there's very little traffic the other way. Certainly in my experience.


In Wales? :what:
Yes, children were beaten for speaking Welsh in schools IN WALES. The education system was entirely English-medium.


This I don't understand - how can a language have a status that is 'recognised' in law? Wills?
The Welsh Language Act 1993 gives Welsh official status with English (though it is often not implemented, or even ignored). All local and national government posters, leaflets, forms, web sites and everything else in Wales have to be bilingual. In my opinion, though, the Act doesn't go far enough - but that's a different topic altogether.

Dreadful Scathe
14th-September-2004, 05:15 PM
Not true in the case of Wales. We were conquered by force of arms, large tracts of our country divided among a bunch of barons from east of the border, then annexed by the English crown after a few hundred years of subjugation.

Wales become part of the union peacefully though, wether you were originally conquered or not. I did say all countries were conquered at some point!

"A Welshman and the first in the Tudor line, Henry VII's reign, and that of subsequent Tudors, made English rule more palatable to the Welsh. His son, King Henry VIII, joined England and Wales under the Act of Union in 1536."

skippy
14th-September-2004, 06:09 PM
I agree, although, i live in Scotland and i have started to pick up a few sayings like:-

Naw yae cannae
How?
Haud yer wheest
etc
etc

I still get the micky taken out of me for my N.Irish accent! :tears:

I know just how you feel I'm English, my dad's Irish and my husband's Scottish so call me a mixedbag. :rofl:
when I moved to Scotland peolpe used to make fun off me :
I just to use the saying "I may be English but at least I had the sense to move to Scotland"" I am very proud of being BRITISH. :cheers:
When I moved to Scotland which was 14 years ago I couldn't get used to the saying of
"meet you at the back of??" :confused: what time is that it is e.g. 8.15 or 8.30 etc.
Also " going to get my messages" :confused: you mean you are going to get your food shopping! why not just say that!! :rofl:
Skippy

Baruch
14th-September-2004, 11:04 PM
"A Welshman and the first in the Tudor line, Henry VII's reign, and that of subsequent Tudors, made English rule more palatable to the Welsh. His son, King Henry VIII, joined England and Wales under the Act of Union in 1536."
Your quote probably doesn't come from a Welsh author, I think. The "Act of Union" was actually an act of annexation. It didn't so much join England and Wales as absorb Wales into England. It was also stated in writing in the aforementioned Act of Annexation that the Welsh language should be done away with totally and replaced with English. This was at a time when virtually 100% of the population spoke Welsh, and the vast majority of those were monoglots.
The Tudors ultimately turned out to be a disappointment to the Welsh, and betrayed the country they originated from by annexing it purely on English terms.

Dreadful Scathe
14th-September-2004, 11:38 PM
Your quote probably doesn't come from a Welsh author, I think. The "Act of Union" was actually an act of annexation. It didn't so much join England and Wales as absorb Wales into England. It was also stated in writing in the aforementioned Act of Annexation that the Welsh language should be done away with totally and replaced with English. This was at a time when virtually 100% of the population spoke Welsh, and the vast majority of those were monoglots.
The Tudors ultimately turned out to be a disappointment to the Welsh, and betrayed the country they originated from by annexing it purely on English terms.
true, history is always biased toward the people who write it :). Still my point is valid though, England kept ties with the rest of the UK with treaties of Union, rather than kept by force.

The source for the above quote is here (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777807.html)

drathzel
15th-September-2004, 03:13 AM
"meet you at the back of??" :confused: what time is that it is e.g. 8.15 or 8.30 etc.
Also " going to get my messages" :confused: you mean you are going to get your food shopping! why not just say that!! :rofl:
Skippy


Ok the back of comment! Dont worry nobody actually has the same meaning for it! I asked several people what it meant and they all (originate from scotland) gave me diff answers!

Messages is a commonly used term in N.ireland so i got used to that one pretty quick! I never got why the ask "how" intead of "why"! :grin:

Baruch
15th-September-2004, 06:59 AM
true, history is always biased toward the people who write it :). Still my point is valid though, England kept ties with the rest of the UK with treaties of Union, rather than kept by force.
Not wanting to nit-pick, but there's no treaty of union with Wales. Scotland had a treaty, Wales was annexed with no say in the matter.

Dance Demon
15th-September-2004, 08:17 AM
! I never got why the ask "how" intead of "why"! :grin:

How no'..............:wink:

drathzel
15th-September-2004, 10:17 AM
How no'..............:wink:


I never said there was anything wrong with it :D however i just cant understand it! But to my shame :sick: I have started to use it. Along with other phrases! Eek :what:

skippy
15th-September-2004, 10:29 PM
I never said there was anything wrong with it :D however i just cant understand it! But to my shame :sick: I have started to use it. Along with other phrases! Eek :what:

WHY do they say that!! I don't think they actually know WHY!! :rofl: My husband says it all the time and I always correct him. :hug:

drathzel
16th-September-2004, 10:46 AM
WHY do they say that!! I don't think they actually know WHY!! :rofl: My husband says it all the time and I always correct him. :hug:


It was rather frustrating to start with but now i just go with the flow and use it all the time! :whistle:

baldrick
16th-September-2004, 11:06 AM
WHY do they say that!! I don't think they actually know WHY!! :rofl: My husband says it all the time and I always correct him. :hug:
I dinne ken :whistle:

drathzel
16th-September-2004, 11:13 AM
I dinne ken :whistle:

aye ye dae