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under par
10th-September-2004, 01:11 PM
Kids taking a few sweets from a huge supermaket chain (with huge profit margins)without paying. Is Tesco/Sainsburys plc really a victim?

Taking a couple of paperclips/pens home from work for the kids.

Avoiding some elements of tax.

Is there any such thing as a victimless crime?

baldrick
10th-September-2004, 01:39 PM
Kids taking a few sweets from a huge supermaket chain (with huge profit margins)without paying. Is Tesco/Sainsburys plc really a victim?

Taking a couple of paperclips/pens home from work for the kids.

Avoiding some elements of tax.

Is there any such thing as a victimless crime?
Victimless no. Somebody has to pay for the shortfall. But does it matter? Bet the supermarket bosses/shareholders don't go short. The local staff bonus may suffer.

Andy McGregor
10th-September-2004, 01:57 PM
Is there any such thing as a victimless crime?

Sex between two 15 year olds.

Eating chocolate while waiting for the lights to go green.

Medicinal use of illegal drugs.

Kissing a very tall policeman on the lips :devil:

Dreadful Scathe
10th-September-2004, 02:04 PM
Sex between two 15 year olds.

Eating chocolate while waiting for the lights to go green.

Medicinal use of illegal drugs.

Kissing a very tall policeman on the lips :devil:
indeed - there are loads of victimless crimes, to add to Andys...

cycling on the pavement

travelling at 75 mph on an empty motorway on a sunny day

bulding a fence 2 inches taller than its legal height

accidently looking at the extremely dodgy spam in your mailbox

etc.. :)

Minnie M
10th-September-2004, 02:07 PM
Watching skinny people eating chocolait magnums :tears: :tears: (especially the dark choc ones) :tears:

Travelling 35 mph in a 30 zone on an empty road at 3am and getting flashed twice ! :angry:

Minnie M
10th-September-2004, 02:16 PM
accidently looking at the extremely dodgy spam in your mailbox......
:really:

Gadget
10th-September-2004, 02:57 PM
Is there any such thing as a victimless crime?

A victimless crime? Yes. A victimless theft? No.

Breaking most preventative laws can be seen as victimless - primary examples being motoring laws; speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, obscured number plate,... or things like carrying a concealed weapon, plotting to overthrow the goverment, some tresspassing laws ...

Theft is not about how much the item stolen was/is worth; it's about takeing something without the owner's permission. The 'victim' being the owner; if they do not give permission, then the theft is a personal attack and insult {imho}.

Dreadful Scathe
10th-September-2004, 03:22 PM
some tresspassing laws ...

Trespassing ? Whats that, some English legal concept I believe :)



Theft is not about how much the item stolen was/is worth; it's about takeing something without the owner's permission. The 'victim' being the owner; if they do not give permission, then the theft is a personal attack and insult {imho}.

True. The 'victim' doesnt have to be aware of the theft, he/she would stll be a victim of the crime - so basically ANY crime where a person is involved makes that person the victim., even if they are a 'corporate' victim.

baldrick
10th-September-2004, 03:25 PM
Trespassing ? Whats that, some English legal concept I believe :)
Look out but there is trespass in Scotland, its what counts as damage thats different.

Dreadful Scathe
10th-September-2004, 03:37 PM
Look out but there is trespass in Scotland, its what counts as damage thats different.
ok :) but its not the same - in England and Wales trespass is a criminal offence, in Scotland the Law of Trespass only makes it an offence if there is damage to the land or property on that land. I think most peoples definition of trespass involves purely being on private ground, which in Scotland is not illegal.


http://www.gm0axy.ic24.net/freedom.htm

http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/news/trespass.html

Katie
10th-September-2004, 03:46 PM
The 'victim' being the owner; if they do not give permission, then the theft is a personal attack and insult {imho}.

Although the borrowing of an item without the owner's consent and then later returning it isn't considered a theft, it can still be insulting too.

What about the borrowing and returning a read book from a bookshop, without having paid for it? Initially, the taking of the book is theft but because the person did not have the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it, it is not considered a theft. :confused:

Kate

baldrick
10th-September-2004, 03:47 PM
ok :) but its not the same - in England and Wales trespass is a criminal offence, in Scotland the Law of Trespass only makes it an offence if there is damage to the land or property on that land. I think most peoples definition of trespass involves purely being on private ground, which in Scotland is not illegal.


http://www.gm0axy.ic24.net/freedom.htm

http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/news/trespass.html
Yep I know but don't tell me I'm the only one round here being picky :wink:
Its only trespass if you do damage down south, but just walking there is considered damage. :confused:

under par
10th-September-2004, 04:00 PM
ok :) but its not the same - in England and Wales trespass is a criminal offence, in Scotland the Law of Trespass only makes it an offence if there is damage to the land or property on that land. I think most peoples definition of trespass involves purely being on private ground, which in Scotland is not illegal.


http://www.gm0axy.ic24.net/freedom.htm

http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/news/trespass.html


TRESSPASS IN ENGLAND AND WALES IS A CIVIL OFFENCE NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENCE AND IS AN OFFENCE UNDER COMMON LAW NOT STATUTE.

Sorry about the capital letters but I caannot be bothered changing it all.

Gordon J Pownall
10th-September-2004, 04:11 PM
Is there a crimeless victim.....????

Me and my wallet when out with Sal for example, no crime committed but after three or four shops, I feel used and abused....... :whistle:

Sheepman
10th-September-2004, 04:24 PM
There must be thousands of cases where the law would define a crime has been committed, but there is no obvious victim, and even the perpetrator is largely unaware that a crime has been committed. (Easy examples being road traffic laws, I'm not bothering with distinctions between civil and criminal offences here, because I wouldn't know them). And I don't think there is much point in going down the route that knowing perpertrators can also be the victims.

An example of theft where you might consider there is no victim, if something is stolen and the "victim" never notices. I'm not talking about shoplifting or pilfering from work here, where essentially (however minor) the result comes out on the bottom line. For example if someone stole £1 from me, unless I saw them taking it, I would never notice. £10 - also pretty unlikely. £1000 - well I might notice (please note I'm not talking cash for this amount, it would have to be fraud or something - so don't go mugging me for my cash 'cos it will all be loose change!) So am I a victim if something has gone that I'll never be aware of, I certainly don't feel like one.

Surely the point is that the laws are there to guard against the cases where there are victims. 35mph in town at 3am is unlikely to create any victims, 35mph outside a school at 3:30pm might lead to a child's death. As a society we set up the rules to create reasonable behaviour, and of course it is always someone else who is behaving unreasonably, never us, isn't it :devil: We don't agree with all the laws all the time, and they are constantly changing as society changes (keeps the lawyers in business! :wink: )

greg

Dreadful Scathe
13th-September-2004, 12:13 PM
I thought this was interesting...in colonial times in the US some areas were extremely religious and since crimes were sins and sins were crimes, the very concept of a "victimless crime" simply didn't exist back then. This is a concept which has been created in the 20th century as we have developed the idea of personal privacy. Any offense against the True God, even if it did not appear to affect anyone else, was automatically an offense against the community and against the principle of social order. Such threats had to be dealt with swiftly and harshly - God's punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah was ever-present in the minds of religious leaders who feared what might happen if they, too, did not work to enforce God's moral laws*. For the Puritans, guilt was corporate in nature and so the whole group would suffer if even one member transgressed. Only by a very public punishment could the group both express communal disapproval for the acts and hope to escape punishment themselves.


*ironically Jesus, in so far as reported in the Bible, was not a particularly moral person See Here (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_jesus_ethics.htm)

Andy McGregor
13th-September-2004, 01:49 PM
I've thought about this again. There is a victim - it's the person that commits the crime. They know they've done it and are lessened by the knowlege.

However, there is probably a victimless crime, it's the one where someone unknowingly commits a crime where no other person is the victim or even knows about the event. There is a crime comitied but nobody knows about it, not even the person that commited it - but there was still a crime comitted - wasn't there? :confused:

Is this one of those 'if a tree falls in the forest' questions?

under par
27th-September-2004, 07:26 AM
I've thought about this again. ..snip...

....it's the one where someone unknowingly commits a crime where no other person is the victim or even knows about the event. :confused:



Andy what sort of crime could this be then?

Give me an example please?

cerocmetro
27th-September-2004, 12:23 PM
suicide? :confused:
It is illegal.

Adam

cerocmetro
27th-September-2004, 12:30 PM
painting over a yellow line, especially double ones.
:waycool:

Actually I am not convinced that technically, running over traffic wardens is a crime :whistle:

Adam

Will
27th-September-2004, 12:33 PM
There is a Church in Shrewsbury within the grounds of which it is legal to shoot a Welshman!

Chicklet
27th-September-2004, 12:36 PM
There is a Church in Shrewsbury within the grounds of which it is legal to shoot a Welshman!
You can't just leave it there - what is this Welshman's name, is it anyone we know????????

Will
27th-September-2004, 12:38 PM
You can't just leave it there - what is this Welshman's name, is it anyone we know????????

It can be any Welshman who enters the grounds of the Church, it is not specific to any one Welshman.
(Some Welshmen are easier to aim at than others though)

MartinHarper
27th-September-2004, 03:33 PM
suicide? :confused:
It is illegal.

From what I read, this used to be true, but is no longer the case. It was legalised (along with attempted suicide) in the 1961 Suicide Act.

ToeTrampler
27th-September-2004, 04:13 PM
From what I read, this used to be true, but is no longer the case. It was legalised (along with attempted suicide) in the 1961 Suicide Act.

Didn't realise this had been changed; makes sense though, after all can you really define something as a crime when you can never prosecute victim?

Attempted suicide - now that's a different kettle of fish, I'd bring the death penalty back on that one! ;)

under par
28th-February-2005, 03:46 PM
There is a Church in Shrewsbury within the grounds of which it is legal to shoot a Welshman!

How long is the queue of English Rugby fans lined up with rifles? :rofl:

DianaS
28th-February-2005, 05:24 PM
Is there any such thing as a victimless crime?

Hmm the forgery of an Old Master that is so perfect that even the experts can't detect :D

TheTramp
28th-February-2005, 05:30 PM
How long is the queue of English Rugby fans lined up with rifles? :rofl:
Yeah. Maybe if you shot every Welshman under the age of 35 (actually, considering the way you've played so far this year, better make that age 50), you might actually beat us next year....

bobgadjet
1st-March-2005, 12:52 PM
suicide? :confused:
It is illegal.

Adam
and there are victims

bobgadjet
1st-March-2005, 12:55 PM
Hmm the forgery of an Old Master that is so perfect that even the experts can't detect :D
OK, if nobody knows which might be the forgery......... is there a forgery ?

under par
1st-March-2005, 01:01 PM
OK, if nobody knows which might be the forgery......... is there a forgery ?


The victim is the owner of the original Old Master whose Old Master picture is less valuable, now, that there are 2 of the same painting OR now, there are more paintings purporting to be from the Old Master.

Simple laws of supply and demand will mean there will be a drop in value. ( I think !)

bobgadjet
1st-March-2005, 01:05 PM
The victim is the owner of the original Old Master whose Old Master picture is less valuable, now, that there are 2 of the same painting OR now, there are more paintings purporting to be from the Old Master.

Simple laws of supply and demand will mean there will be a drop in value. ( I think !)
but will there be a drop in value, as BOTh owners may well state THEIRS is the ONLY original, the price may go up to the demand created for the actual original.

AND
Has the orginator actually lost out ? Surely the best form of flatery...... and if even HE/SHE could not tell the original....... I say again...... is there a victim ?
of for that matter..... is there a forgery ?

Magic Hans
3rd-March-2005, 12:38 PM
Kids taking a few sweets from a huge supermaket chain (with huge profit margins)without paying. Is Tesco/Sainsburys plc really a victim?

Taking a couple of paperclips/pens home from work for the kids.

Avoiding some elements of tax.

Is there any such thing as a victimless crime?Is Tesco/Sainsbury free of guilt of the crime?? Controversial??

Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet" suggests:

And this also, though the word lie heavy upon your hearts:

The murdered is not unaccountable for his own murder,
And the robbed is not blameless in being robbed.
The righteous is not innocent of the deeds of the wicked,
And the white-handed is not clean in the doings of the felon.
Yea, the guilty is oftentimes the victim of the injured,

And still more often the condemned is the burden-bearer for the guiltless and unblamed.


The Prophet - Kahlil Gibran: Crime and Punishment (http://4umi.com/gibran/prophet/12.htm)

Not as daft as it might first appear .... if given more that half a second of consideration! [In my humble opinion, of course!]

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-March-2005, 01:31 PM
but will there be a drop in value, as BOTh owners may well state THEIRS is the ONLY original, the price may go up to the demand created for the actual original.


What if the original artist painted 2 identical pictures just to wind people up :) Both are real but you'd get the same arguments and drop in value :)